An Interview With A Murderer: Anthony Jones (Part 1)

Ajouté : 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]This episode covers a lot of sensitive topics. Take care while listening to it.

[00:00:04]>> Eden said that I I stabbed him before he died. He said Anthony Jones stabbed me.

[00:00:09]I see that you've been convicted of murder. To be honest, I was a little bit conflicted whether to uh get you on the podcast.

[00:00:15]>> So, I knew something was wrong with me and that that was my cry for help. I want to break the cycle today. I'm going to plead guilty and show my family that this is how we change.

[00:00:39]In 2010, Eden Brown was stabbed and murdered. Today, I sat down with Anthony Jones, the person convicted of Eden's murder. This was a tough conversation.

[00:00:51]I wouldn't have done it unless Anthony was prepared to take responsibility.

[00:00:56]Eden was stabbed at a party by Anthony, who was a mate. It was a brutal, senseless crime that destroyed lives. We talked about the murder, the trauma of the childhood filled with violence, the brutality of prison, and how he found salvation. Anthony Jones, welcome to I Catch Killers.

[00:01:14]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:01:16]>> Well, it's uh I you got an interesting story, and uh it's certainly something I I want to sit down and uh talk to you about. It was a mutual friend of ours, Joe, that got in contact with me and said, "Hey, you got to check out this bloke, uh, AJ." He called you and, uh, I started talking to Joe about it and your story. And, uh, it it's pretty heavy.

[00:01:37]It's It's a full-on story.

[00:01:39]>> Yeah, it's definitely heavy. Um, and a good mate of mine, Joe, who does the Confit.

[00:01:44]>> Yeah.

[00:01:44]>> Um, so we're starting to collaborate with what I'm doing as well, but um, good mate of mine, and he told me you're a good bloke, so >> Oh, well that that's good. Well, a shout out to Joe. He came on the came on the podcast and I I bumped into him. I bumped into him in the boxing match last last time I I saw him. But the work that Joe's doing with Confit is uh good stuff. So, what did Confit do? Cuz I I'm a big fan of uh the stuff. What's your take on it?

[00:02:09]>> Oh, Confit's um what he's taken what he's learned in prison.

[00:02:14]>> Yeah.

[00:02:15]>> How to train and what that meant to guys physical exercise. and he's come up with a business plan called a confit and now he goes into juvenile facilities all across the country and teaches them how to change their mindset, how to use their aggressive mind, their aggressive manner.

[00:02:29]>> Yeah.

[00:02:30]>> Um in a in a good way through exercise and he's and he's developing mentors to go walk alongside these guys and you know amazing what he's doing.

[00:02:39]>> Yeah. I I think that uh yeah, people that have walked the path cuz Joe got himself into a lot of trouble younger years and did a lot of time. But uh young BS and girls are going to listen to people that have got that life experience. I think that's uh so important.

[00:02:54]>> Lived experience when they know you've been there, done that.

[00:02:58]>> Yeah.

[00:02:58]>> They'll listen. They're not going to listen to the authority that they have there.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. And that's why Joe's made a massive impact him and his crew and yeah, just super proud of what he's doing and gives us a pathway too. Guys who want to change their life that >> Well, that that's the thing. There's a double-edged sword to it because he he's helping people that have uh gone down the path he's what >> definitely went. So, he said you got an interesting story and I I looked at your background and uh you know coming from the area I did in the cops and a homicide detective and I see that you've been convicted of murder and uh that you actually pleaded guilty to the murder and to be honest I was a little bit conflicted whether to uh get you on get you on the podcast. I've had people that have been convicted of murder on the on the podcast before, but a lot of my thing during uh my policing career was looking out for the victims or the the families of victims of uh homicide. And uh so I thought I' I'd ask you the the question and uh I wasn't sure what the uh what the response was, but I was quite pleased by the response when uh it was Eden Brown uh the person that uh you killed. I said, "I want to reach out to their family and just get a sense of uh what what their families uh view on me sitting down with you in in a podcast."

[00:04:16]I spoke to uh Jessica, um Eden's sister, and uh she was uh she was happy for me to talk to you. There's a couple of things that she said she wants me to ask you, and I I I said I I would. But more importantly, I was happy that you your response when I said I I want to speak to the family. You said, "I'm so glad that you said that because you don't want to cause any more pain pain to the family." And that told me a little bit about uh the person that you are.

[00:04:43]>> Yeah. I was hoping you'd say that because I can't obviously talk to them still on parole.

[00:04:47]>> Yeah.

[00:04:48]>> Um and I'm I'm so cautious about how I present myself and what I say. They're always in the background for me in my mind. Um, and everything I do now is actually, you know, propelled from what's gone on. So, I first and foremost, I always want to show them respect. You know, they've lost their son.

[00:05:08]>> Yeah.

[00:05:08]>> And for some reason, my life's been spared. So, I don't take that for granted.

[00:05:14]>> No. Well, that that that came across uh came across when I I spoke to you. And uh I know that you've you've turned your life around and uh we're going to talk a lot about uh about that later on in the podcast, but dealing with the the situation that uh sent you to jail and not in the first place cuz you've done time before that, but uh with the uh death of uh I'll call it for what it is. It was ruled to be a murder, a homicide >> uh of Eden Brown. Eden was your mate.

[00:05:44]>> He was. Yeah.

[00:05:45]>> Yeah. Let's let's start this podcast off talking a little bit about Eden, who who he was and uh yeah, what your relationship with Eden was.

[00:05:55]>> Um he was quite a bit older than me.

[00:05:57]He's like a big brother type of role when as we started to get >> become closer as mates. I just met him through I met him at the gym actually.

[00:06:04]>> Yep.

[00:06:04]>> Through just training at the gym and >> he was you know um like I met him through steroids. He was on steroids.

[00:06:13]>> Yeah. And I used to get steroids off him and then we connected as started to connect as mates.

[00:06:19]>> Yeah.

[00:06:19]>> And started to hang out pretty frequently and um probably for maybe two years I reckon.

[00:06:27]>> Yeah.

[00:06:27]>> We were mates and then I just we had a few differences, a few things that I just honestly didn't really appreciate what he was doing. So I kind of distanced myself a little bit.

[00:06:41]>> We weren't as close as we once were. U but we were still mates but we weren't it didn't we didn't hang out as much >> towards the end to where he um he passed away.

[00:06:51]>> Right. And what uh what year was that?

[00:06:56]>> Um 200 n 200 2009 2010. Yeah. We probably probably met him in 2009 I reckon.

[00:07:04]>> Yeah.

[00:07:04]>> And then the murder happened in 2010.

[00:07:08]>> Heavy stuff.

[00:07:09]>> Yeah. I haven't really talked about like this. So >> yeah, >> it is heavy, mate.

[00:07:14]>> Well, yeah, we we spoke before we sat down on on to do the podcast and I said I'll ask ask the hard questions and I I think >> it's important that we know where you've come from and and where you are now and uh and what's happen in in between. So um how many years did you do for the murder of uh Eden?

[00:07:34]>> I did 14 years. That was the nonp parole period. So I did 14 years straight and my sentence was 18 years eight months.

[00:07:40]Right.

[00:07:41]>> So, I'm on parole now.

[00:07:42]>> When when when did you get out?

[00:07:44]>> I got out 19 months ago, roughly June 2024.

[00:07:49]>> Um, you pleaded guilty to murder. Now, I was a homicide cop for a long time, and that that's very rare. What what uh brought that on?

[00:07:59]>> I was the first trial, I got a hung jury.

[00:08:02]>> Yeah.

[00:08:03]>> And that trial kind of just messed me up cuz I got on the stand and, you know, just made up a story. Yeah, and I am a truthful guy and it impacted me so much and just, you know, seeing his family, seeing my family going through all this stuff. Um, it kind of just took everything that I all my energy really.

[00:08:24]>> Yeah.

[00:08:24]>> And by the second trial, about two weeks before the second trial, for some reason, I just I asked I put my name down to get a Bible.

[00:08:33]>> Yeah.

[00:08:34]>> And some lady came a week later, yelled out my name, and gave me his Bible.

[00:08:40]and I just started reading it, but I only could read probably at a year six level.

[00:08:44]>> So, I had no idea what I was reading.

[00:08:47]>> But for some reason, I just read it every time I was in my cell. And then I just kind of made this vow to myself and I said, I'm just going to take this Bible with me on this second troll >> and just read it.

[00:08:59]>> And so the start of the second troll happened and I took a little blue Bible with me, little Gideonss, and we'd get there very early, obviously before course starts. I said I'd read it. Lunch breaks, morning tea breaks, waiting for the truck.

[00:09:13]And I was already switched off from day one of the trial. Like mentally, yeah, I didn't want to be there.

[00:09:19]>> But I didn't know like I had to be there.

[00:09:24]>> So like there's no way out, right? So I've got I've got to do this. And >> so no one really knew what was going on because I can't talk to anybody except for the lawyer. I don't even say too much.

[00:09:35]But I just kept reading his Bible and looking for something and I came across a verse or it took me to a page number because I saw the word freedom.

[00:09:43]>> Yeah.

[00:09:44]>> In the index and it took me to um >> a page number and a book a passage in the book of John which says then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. I had no idea what that meant. Yeah.

[00:09:55]>> I just saw truth. I saw freedom and I just mowled that over for for weeks and event and I had I knew there was probably a big chance I could probably win this trial after this after the first one.

[00:10:12]>> I think that's reasonable if you you've had a hung jury.

[00:10:14]>> The lawyers were pretty confident. And to be very honest, I had vengeance in my heart, >> you know, to go and I thought if I get let out like I'm coming back. Yeah.

[00:10:26]>> And I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to hurt anyone else. Um but I was I had severe vengeance in my heart.

[00:10:35]>> But I thought how how what do I do? And I just took that passage in the Bible and it just it just something internally happened to me and I came up with the decision to plead guilty. M >> and then I had so I sat on that for a couple days and then one day after morning tea I just told my lawyer to come down after have a chat and I told him I want to plead guilty and he just thought I was absolutely mad >> and he told the judge I was sick that day and he sent me back to the jail.

[00:11:07]>> Have a think about it.

[00:11:08]>> Have a think about it.

[00:11:10]But my decision was made and came back.

[00:11:14]>> I just didn't care. I just like everything was impacting me. Watching Eden's family, watching my family, I thought everyone gets closure. And I just felt this conviction that I got to plead guilty, you know, but I've had I had to convince my solicitor.

[00:11:32]>> So I he he said to me, "You need to admit to me what you did in this crime."

[00:11:37]>> Yeah.

[00:11:37]>> And because my mind I was so drunk and blacked out, I've got like snippets of memory. I couldn't tell you what happened.

[00:11:44]So I I told him what I do remember and he just he's like, "Mate, this is" He goes, "You got to sack me now. We'll go to the third trial."

[00:11:53]>> Yeah.

[00:11:53]>> And I said, "I'm not sacking you." Like, "We got to I'm going on with this."

[00:11:57]>> Because you would have told him stuff that he's now obliged to he can't represent you because you you would have made admissions to him or or something.

[00:12:06]>> 100% enough information that I do remember that we've got to go to another trial and have another legal.

[00:12:12]>> He can't can't represent.

[00:12:13]>> Yeah. So he was doing his due diligence of course and >> but I said no we're not going to do that I'm pleading guilty man >> and he's like this mate you're going to get so long and I said I don't care what I get finally I just we sat there through the perspects and I said you know my family man like my mom my dad the heroin the heroin use the violence the prison like I go you know my whole history I said nobody takes responsibility for anything >> and I go I want to break the cycle today I'm going to plead guilty and show my family that this is how we change. And then he just he didn't know what to do with that. He sat back and it was tears in his eyes and >> Yeah. big call.

[00:12:54]>> Yeah. And he goes, "Only condition is I got to go see the DPP and see if they'll, you know, write you at least a decent fact sheet."

[00:13:02]>> Yeah.

[00:13:03]>> And they did.

[00:13:04]>> Right.

[00:13:04]>> And I had to get up and get arraigned again.

[00:13:06]>> Okay.

[00:13:07]>> Yeah. All right. Look, we will talk further further about that offense because I I said to uh Jessica Eden's sister, I'd ask you things and that that's uh things that she wanted to ask that the family wanted wanted to find out. But let's just take a step back. Um your childhood, tell us tell us about your childhood.

[00:13:27]>> Yeah, childhood was um wasn't good.

[00:13:30]>> So mom and dad were both heroin addicts.

[00:13:33]>> So I was raised in an addict's home. Um first memories of living in a Waterloo in the big housing commission flats at Waterloo around four or five years old.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah.

[00:13:44]>> And just have for some reason I just I remember my mom shooting up from about four years old, you know. She used to do it in front of me.

[00:13:50]>> Yeah.

[00:13:51]>> Um she probably just thought I was too young. I wouldn't. But I just I remember everything and and um >> that's that's your first sort of memory.

[00:13:59]So your mom shooting up.

[00:14:01]>> Mom always with me. But I I remember the tournica. I remember the spoon. And I remember the color of it. I remember everything. And um so but I didn't know what that was. And then my dad had a domestic with my mom around 5 years old.

[00:14:18]>> Yeah, >> I remember that in the kitchen and then he just like he he flogged her and then he just walked out and then uh like I didn't really ever see I saw him maybe a handful of times again in my life.

[00:14:29]>> Okay. So how how old were you?

[00:14:31]>> So 5 years old, >> right? So, it was just me and mom >> living in this house.

[00:14:35]>> Have any siblings?

[00:14:37]>> Uh, I did, but to him. So, I had a brother and a sister.

[00:14:40]>> Yeah.

[00:14:41]>> But I like I think I knew them when I was really young.

[00:14:44]>> Okay. So, you they're not in my family.

[00:14:46]>> You stayed with you?

[00:14:47]>> Yeah. I was just with mom and it was just me and her.

[00:14:50]>> Um, but we she'd moved us away from our family like my grandfather and aunties and uncles and that because of her addiction and stuff.

[00:14:56]>> Yeah. So it was just me and her and then um we moved into a spot in Surrey Hills just just here.

[00:15:03]>> Yeah.

[00:15:03]>> In a onebedroom studio and um like no toilet, no nothing, you know. And we met this my mom met this other guy >> and that's when we met this man like my whole life just it just went to [ __ ] man. It changed.

[00:15:18]>> Well, you it's not going too well at the start.

[00:15:20]>> It's not going too good already.

[00:15:21]>> Yeah. But uh Okay. So what what happened there? So, this is a new uh fell in >> new partner. And I remember him. He's always at King's Cross and we'd always be in the cross. Yeah. Mom's always going pick up or whatever.

[00:15:34]>> And I remember this dude and he was he always made me laugh. So, I was kind of like, you know, he's he's all right.

[00:15:38]>> Yeah.

[00:15:39]>> Um but he asked me to go to the footy and he knew I love footy. So, he took us to the footy and I convinced mom to let me like let him take us >> and I was going into hospital cuz I was was in hospital for probably about four years on and off with a with some stomach issues as a young bloke.

[00:15:53]>> Yeah.

[00:15:54]So I had to go to hospital on the Monday, but he took us to the footy on the Sunday and went to the footy. He came home with us to this apartment or studio and then he took me to hospital the next day and I was in hospital for probably a couple months.

[00:16:07]>> Yeah.

[00:16:08]>> And so like I kind of fell in love with this guy because like my own dad's not coming.

[00:16:12]>> You you thought this guy stepped in a male >> role model and he's telling me all the all the things a young black wants to hear.

[00:16:19]>> And I was like, "Yeah, okay." And I remember him one say to me, he goes, "That guy is not your father. He's your sperm donor." He goes, "I'm your father." And I was like, and then I got out of hospital, went home with him. He was there.

[00:16:32]>> We're talking up a good game, isn't it?

[00:16:34]Say saying that sort of. And he's telling me like like made me like fall in love with this guy. Yeah.

[00:16:41]>> As a little boy.

[00:16:42]>> And um I was like I thought I kicked a goal. You know, I got this guy here looking after me and mom. But then one night he just all turned.

[00:16:52]>> Like he was a heroin addict himself and an alcoholic and he's such a charismatic guy.

[00:17:00]>> Um but then one night I don't know what it was but he turned and then he just he locked the door and deadlocked the door and he just attacked mom like and he didn't you don't he doesn't just attack mom for like you know a couple of minutes.

[00:17:13]>> Yeah.

[00:17:13]>> Like he this goes all night >> like 12 hours. bashing >> beatings like just the way the psychological just talking to her.

[00:17:23]>> Yeah.

[00:17:24]>> Um like I never seen anything like it.

[00:17:27]So then that was a that just was a pattern now. It just kept happening all the time.

[00:17:31]>> And how how old are we looking? How old?

[00:17:33]>> I'm 6 years old.

[00:17:34]>> Right. So you're seeing this regular.

[00:17:35]>> I live in one room. So I see everything.

[00:17:37]>> Domestic violence, >> the whole thing.

[00:17:39]>> I can't get away. There's no room for me.

[00:17:41]>> Yeah.

[00:17:43]So I I kind of begin to shut down as a as a young kid and I'm already struggling to learn at school. I'm always in and out of hospital. Um these two just take me all around Sydney and to you know to get on heroin and methadone clinics like this is my life you know >> and what at that age what happened when they're on the nod when they're >> you just look after yourself.

[00:18:03]>> Yeah. Like they're my memories. my dad and my mom sitting there. I know when they've had a shot because they go to the bathroom or whatever or they do it or my mom would do it in front of me and then I know within, you know, pretty soon >> their heads in their in their laps and then I'm just sitting there, you know, and so I tried to run away even from that place. Um I was only six. I had nowhere to go. I ran away for the day and came back.

[00:18:28]And then one particular night like where it got hectic was Christmas Eve and then my stepfather said, "Make sure you come and get me. I'll be in I'll be in the pub and we'll take you to Santa."

[00:18:38]>> Yeah.

[00:18:39]>> So mom, we went to every pub in S Hills and we couldn't find him. She said, "Ah, don't worry. We'll just we'll just go."

[00:18:47]So we did the Santa thing, came back, and then sometime later that night, he came home.

[00:18:54]Key in the lock, he deadlocks the door.

[00:18:57]I was asleep like but I was awake and um but then I went to sleep and I woke up just like just murderous screams man like um screaming was normal now but this was like mom's going to die. This is your mom's.

[00:19:13]>> My mom's just screaming, man. And um I had I had a I had a cupboard that was my wall and my bed was here. And then I just looked out at the cupboard and then my mom was naked and she's pregnant at this time with my sister.

[00:19:27]>> Yeah.

[00:19:28]And he was just there's blood everywhere. And I don't know what he was doing, but he was I yelled out to him, "Please, Dad, just stop." And he just came over, dragged me out of the bed.

[00:19:38]And for some reason, he sat me on this chair and he he tied me to it.

[00:19:43]And I'm just frozen with fear, you know.

[00:19:44]My mom's like naked. There's blood everywhere.

[00:19:49]And she's just like petrified, man. And um he for some reason he like he would he had this knife was had a long knife and a orange hand. I'll never forget it. And um was quite blunt though. So he'd stick like he'd cut up but not too deep and he just torture her.

[00:20:06]>> And then he say to me, "Son, I want you to laugh."

[00:20:10]And I said, "What?" He goes, "I want you to laugh, mate. If you don't if you laugh, I won't kill your sister and I won't kill your mother."

[00:20:18]>> In reference to the the >> Yeah. So then he's like doing whatever he's doing with the knife to my mom and he's making me laugh watching it. And my mom before I laughed, my mom just screamed at me. He said, "Laugh, son. Laugh."

[00:20:30]So I just started laughing. And um like then I blacked out. And then I all I remember later was that my dad was unconscious like from just I don't know what happened and I had to lift him off my mother and then dressed my mom and she was in a bad way and uh I w I actually walked at the Sils Police Station right here >> and then he my father was charged with attempted murder and and then my mom ended up putting him in jail but then we'd take take me to visit every week.

[00:21:08]>> Okay. Just let me unpack what you described there because that's Yeah, there's domestic violence and all that, but that that's >> is extreme.

[00:21:16]>> That that is extreme. So, you're tied to a chair. You're six, seven years old.

[00:21:21]Your mom's been bashed. She's screaming.

[00:21:24]>> Yeah.

[00:21:25]>> You got this psychopath.

[00:21:27]>> So, when I woke up, he was actually raping her.

[00:21:30]>> Like, this is it. This gets horrible.

[00:21:33]>> Yeah. and telling you to laugh or otherwise he's going to kill the unborn.

[00:21:37]>> He's going to cut my sister out. His words were. I'm going to kill your mother.

[00:21:41]>> What? Yeah.

[00:21:42]>> And I I still don't know why he did this to me.

[00:21:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:46]Like there's bad and then there's really bad and that's uh that's just pure evil.

[00:21:52]>> I I can't even comprehend what effect that would have on you at that age.

[00:21:56]>> We'll definitely get into that. Um >> but he's he's still to this day the most evil man I've ever come across. And you know, I've been sitting in jail for a long time. No one comes close.

[00:22:06]>> Okay. So, you've gone to the police station, reported that he's been charged with the attempt attempt murder.

[00:22:12]>> Yeah.

[00:22:13]>> You're thinking that's hopefully the last you you see of him, but when he's doing time for that crime on probably others.

[00:22:19]>> Yeah.

[00:22:20]>> Your mom's >> we're going to visit him.

[00:22:22]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:22:23]>> And that one confused me, too, >> cuz then he charms us again.

[00:22:27]>> Yeah.

[00:22:27]>> He's charming mom. He's charming me. And we never talk about this again. Me and mom. We never raise it again.

[00:22:35]And then mom's like, and I had to give evidence against my dad, right? And I remember my father saying to me, and I he said to me, I know the cops are going to try, you know, tell you to tell on me. And he said to me, you just tell him what you needed to do, son.

[00:22:54]And I go, "Dad, I don't want to do that." Cuz he already been like training me. You never talk. You're not a dog.

[00:22:59]Like this is how he talk. He's ingrained it into me. And then he's telling me to do it and I was like, I don't want to do that, Dad.

[00:23:06]And then not until later in life, I kind of knew what he was doing there.

[00:23:09]>> Yeah.

[00:23:09]>> But um but then mom, you know, he he manipulates mom and mom gets on the stand and says he didn't do these things and he gets to know Bill, I think it was, and he gets out and he gets released back to our home. after after all that >> after all that >> going through the court matters >> you came back to our house >> and then it goes on again >> how so that would have taken a year or so roughly I'm not exactly sure but >> okay we're looking at eight nine sort of >> years of age and >> this comes back he's come back out and he's promised the world to us >> as they do >> as they do he's a con man >> um we got emergency housing after that though >> like while he was in custody so we went from the little apartment to a um like a an apartment with two three bedrooms and then my sister was born >> but my sister had so many complications >> for cuz what happened in the womb um she almost died a few times on in hospital and >> he got out he was there for the birth so he got out for the birth >> right >> which um and then he actually they moved us and he moved into the new house with us >> so like >> you got to love the system >> and then it just it just happened all over again.

[00:24:24]>> So repeated the domestic violence.

[00:24:27]>> Yeah. And then the next one was >> physical emotional >> went to try killer again and it happened again.

[00:24:32]>> So >> what I I'm just trying to get a sense and it's probably hard because you can't even remember what you were thinking or how you're looking at at life at that age. But I can't comprehend what you've just described and and your view on life. Like how did you function at school? Did you have mates? Did you have >> No. Well, I was always the old one out at school because we never had money.

[00:24:53]>> Never had food much.

[00:24:55]>> I always never had the uniform.

[00:24:56]>> So, I always stood out. I was always, you know, looking a different kid.

[00:25:02]>> Yeah.

[00:25:03]>> And then by that stage, I knew my life was different.

[00:25:06]>> So, I was kind of shut down. I didn't say too much.

[00:25:10]>> The only time I really talked was I played footy. Footy was the only thing that I hung on to. And um so I just started getting ultra aggressive as a young kid.

[00:25:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. and fighting and I just started stealing, fighting, just I shut down. I got diagnosed with dyslexia and then soon as I heard that as a young bloke, I just thought I'm stupid.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. So then I was getting taken to psyches all over the joint by my mom going to jails coming out like I just completely shut down, man.

[00:25:43]the you build up aggression I would imagine and and on so many different fronts the home life you're not uh got the social skills to find some mates and so you start stealing getting into fights being aggressive I would imagine you're like a ticking time bomb >> yeah like I got expelled in year one for stealing I started stealing at >> six years old >> and then like and I'm fighting kids soon as like I used to get bullied early on and then when I met this guy my stepfather like he said you're not going to get bullied anymore if they hurt you you hurt them.

[00:26:22]>> Yeah.

[00:26:23]>> And he goes but if you become the bully like I'll bully you.

[00:26:26]>> But then I'm like I'm coming home.

[00:26:28]You're bullying us all the time. So it was just all these mixed messages.

[00:26:31]>> Life advice from a psychopath.

[00:26:33]>> And um so then I became the bully.

[00:26:35]>> Yeah.

[00:26:35]>> Like I just took if I had didn't have something I'd take it.

[00:26:38]>> Yeah. But that that's how I was I was doing this from six years old.

[00:26:42]>> Um you mentioned football like the team sports and environment. Did you have any role models any male role models that >> um like my grandfather was always a really my mom's father? Yeah.

[00:26:53]>> But we never got to see much.

[00:26:54]>> But when he he was a very like you know loved him, adored him.

[00:26:59]>> Um and he was like my saving grace as a real little bloke. And >> but also my oldest brother came into my life. two older brothers >> from your from your biological father.

[00:27:09]>> No, from the stepfather.

[00:27:10]>> Okay.

[00:27:10]>> He had two sons.

[00:27:11]>> Yeah.

[00:27:12]>> And they were like in their mid20s and um one just kept going back in jail and the other one did too. But my oldest one, he was kind of became like my father.

[00:27:22]>> Yeah.

[00:27:22]>> He just never left me.

[00:27:24]>> And so like if I didn't have that bloke, I'd probably be dead, you know? So >> he just he knew what his father was and I think he just thought I can't leave this kid, >> right? So he he he took that big brother role.

[00:27:38]>> Yeah, he really did, man. And he he's still there today.

[00:27:40]>> Oh, good on him. Good on him.

[00:27:42]>> When uh when did you start getting in trouble with the cops?

[00:27:45]>> I think I first got arrested about 8 years old.

[00:27:47]>> Yeah.

[00:27:48]>> Um so we moved to another place, housing commission like community in our tarman.

[00:27:53]And then I just, you know, there's like hundreds of houses kids just, >> you know, lurking, >> mums and dads on heroin or whatever. And so I started hanging with older kids and then got in a lot of trouble and started getting arrested probably 8 years old.

[00:28:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Did uh you do any time in youth detention?

[00:28:10]>> No. I always threatened to go >> and they always gave me chances >> and I'd snap out of it a little bit and when footy season was on. I noticed when I look back footy season wasn't on. I'm I'm getting in a lot of trouble.

[00:28:22]>> When footy season's on, I had something to look forward to it and you know just and I could be aggressive on the field and >> and I started to get good. So it started to like okay this is my way. This is my way out.

[00:28:32]>> Yeah.

[00:28:33]>> Yeah.

[00:28:33]>> What about uh from an education point of view? You diagnosed as being dyslexic.

[00:28:38]Did you just shut down and just misbehave to cover that up?

[00:28:41]>> Yeah. I just completely shut down. I couldn't read and write properly.

[00:28:44]>> Um I just completely shut soon as I heard the word dyslexic. I just convinced myself I'm an idiot.

[00:28:50]>> Right.

[00:28:51]>> I'm incapable.

[00:28:52]>> Your interpretation of it.

[00:28:53]>> Yeah.

[00:28:54]>> And when the violence at home, like I'd just go to school and just be like mute.

[00:29:00]Uh, and I just act out.

[00:29:02]>> Yeah.

[00:29:02]>> You know, soon as I if I had to read in class, act out. I'm not reading.

[00:29:05]>> Get kicked out of the class.

[00:29:06]>> Get kicked out of class. Awesome. That's that was my life. School.

[00:29:09]>> Yeah. It's a sad pattern, isn't it? A lot of kids do it. Like you you look back and you go, "Ah, I know. What's going on?"

[00:29:16]>> Yeah. But at the time, you think they they're just being the class being a goose making life hard for everyone, but >> they're hiding something.

[00:29:23]>> They're hiding something and I just never said anything.

[00:29:25]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:26]>> I was trained not to. What uh you spoke of your grandfather as you're becoming a teenager? Did you have any um dreams or ambitions or any any idea what you wanted to do or you've grown up with a lot of people who have been in and out of jail. Did you think that was just your natural progression?

[00:29:44]>> Yeah, there was two dreams really. There was one dream since I was a little boy was just to play NRL.

[00:29:48]>> Yeah.

[00:29:49]>> And that was my dream.

[00:29:52]>> I thought that's it. That's the way that's how I get out of this. And if that failed, well, my right of passage is going to jail.

[00:30:00]>> Yeah.

[00:30:01]>> So when footy ended, that that was it.

[00:30:06]>> How how did your footy end? Did it get to the point where you weren't going to cut it at the level or?

[00:30:11]>> Yeah, I started playing representative footy at 14. So manly started looking at me, started playing for him, >> went to development squads, Harold Matthews, SG Bore, >> and thought, "Okay, >> so you're on the way."

[00:30:22]>> Yeah, on the way. But then I started getting a knee injury.

[00:30:26]>> Yeah.

[00:30:27]>> And then lost a lot of confidence and then obviously not talking about what was going on inside of me either. And I was already getting arrested a lot. I was on curfews. I was going to court all the time. And then I had my first job of alcohol. And then that was it. That was a spiral. Over the next couple of years, I just lost the desire of the one thing that all I ever wanted to do.

[00:30:51]>> Yeah. There's a lot of uh a lot of stories of people wasted talent where they uh the drugs and the alcohol have kicked in at those in those uh years >> because I thought I've been never had a drug or an alcohol ever and then when I had my first drink and started to get started to do it regularly I didn't feel like I I was numb.

[00:31:12]>> Yeah.

[00:31:12]>> But I actually never knew how much pain and anger I was in until I had the alcohol. I was like oh I don't feel like that like I feel happy. Right. So that that was that was the impact that had on you.

[00:31:23]>> Yeah. It wasn't because I liked it. I hated it.

[00:31:26]>> I I hate it. I still hate it.

[00:31:28]>> Yeah.

[00:31:29]>> But at that at the beginning it was like, "Oh, I can block everything out."

[00:31:34]>> But then it just it took it took complete control over me.

[00:31:37]>> How how how old were you when you started drinking?

[00:31:40]>> Uh about 15.

[00:31:41]>> Okay.

[00:31:42]>> And then didn't take over my life till about 18 months later. And then I just eventually just walked away from from everything.

[00:31:50]>> Right.

[00:31:51]>> And my stepfather actually ODed in 2003 on heroin.

[00:31:56]>> Yeah.

[00:31:56]>> And then that was it. His effect dying on me >> was like it was horrific. It was weird.

[00:32:05]>> Talk me through that because he wasn't the greatest role model or person in your life, but it had a profound effect on you.

[00:32:12]>> Yeah. He I just never accepted what he did to me at that point.

[00:32:18]>> Yeah.

[00:32:18]>> You know, uh and for some reason I idolized him, >> right?

[00:32:23]>> You know, I just saw the good in him.

[00:32:26]>> Still looking for his love.

[00:32:28]>> Yeah. And then when he died 3 months later, I went to juvie and then my life of jail began.

[00:32:35]>> What What sort of crimes was it? The alcohol induced and >> alcohol induced everything. Yeah. Just violent crimes. It was always violence, >> robberies or >> um robberies, robberying companies and then just you know violence >> did and I know the type of person you are now and so I'm asking not how you look back now but how you looked at yourself at the time when you if you bash someone and and rob them.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah.

[00:32:57]>> I would imagine there's you normal reaction is feel a little bit of guilt.

[00:33:02]Some poor dude's just walking along the road and you you've flogged him and taken taken their wallet or whatever.

[00:33:07]Did you have any conscience back then?

[00:33:09]>> No. very rarely.

[00:33:11]>> So, it didn't even it didn't give it a second thought.

[00:33:14]>> Not much.

[00:33:15]>> Yeah.

[00:33:15]>> I was probably at my worst when I was about >> 15 or 17.

[00:33:20]>> Yeah.

[00:33:20]>> I just I I was like I had tunnel vision.

[00:33:24]>> Well, I you know, giving you a bit of a lifeline here. I think we're all a little bit that way at that age. Like you you do something and you don't consider >> I thought it was funny.

[00:33:33]>> Yeah. You don't consider the consequences or the impact that it's having having on >> and I I hated myself. I had no selfworth. So it's there was guilt definitely like when I got caught.

[00:33:45]>> Yeah.

[00:33:46]>> I just always own up.

[00:33:47]>> Yeah. It was me.

[00:33:49]>> It was like relief. I think it was weird.

[00:33:52]>> But um but in the moment Yeah. I just didn't >> I just I was just acting out.

[00:33:58]>> So when you your offenses would have accumulated I imagine and then you went to uh juvie. Um, how long did you get in there or >> I did 5 months turned 18 >> whereabouts in >> and then went to Baxter.

[00:34:12]>> Yeah.

[00:34:13]>> And then turned 18 and then got out probably I think it was about 4 days after my 18th.

[00:34:19]>> Yeah.

[00:34:20]>> And then went to jail 8 days later.

[00:34:22]>> Okay. So tell me about that that experience in uh the juvenile detention.

[00:34:27]Yeah. So you got in there 16. You're not being judged in there. Like there's the people who are in would have a lot of them would have had the same mindset as you did.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah. Of J for me was great. Like I enjoyed it.

[00:34:40]>> Great as in >> Yeah. It was fun. I was safe.

[00:34:43]>> I got fed.

[00:34:45]I like I had routine. I didn't have to worry about where I'm eating, who's going to hurt me.

[00:34:50]>> It was an easier life.

[00:34:52]>> It was It was comfort. It was something that I never had. I never had the structure and routine.

[00:34:56]>> So for me, I I really crave that. And that's sad, isn't it? That's that's environment can give you the security you're looking for.

[00:35:04]>> Like I shed a tear when I walked out.

[00:35:06]>> Yeah.

[00:35:06]>> I didn't want to leave. Like I really didn't, man. Um not till later in life when I was reflecting. I thought no kid should have wanted to be in there.

[00:35:14]>> Yeah.

[00:35:14]>> And I wanted to be there, >> you know. So, uh >> Yeah.

[00:35:20]>> Okay. So, they've released you when you've you've turned 18 and you've hit the streets. We've haven't learned any lessons other than probably how how to do crime a little bit better. And uh you've still got the anger issues.

[00:35:33]>> Oh yeah, >> I was fine. And I I was always fighting and ju but >> and then when I got out I I just went on a bender.

[00:35:41]>> I got drunk for eight days.

[00:35:44]>> Woke up in a police station. You going to jail.

[00:35:47]>> What have you done in those eight days?

[00:35:48]>> So they said I don't even have a memory of that. So it started even back then.

[00:35:52]Aggravated robbery. Prieous and >> who who who' you rob?

[00:35:56]>> It was a shop.

[00:35:57]>> Yeah.

[00:35:57]>> And barely I didn't even remember it.

[00:35:59]>> Yeah.

[00:35:59]>> I just remembered waking up in the police station.

[00:36:02]>> So you would drink to the point of blackout.

[00:36:04]>> Yeah. Back then definitely to the point of blackout and then just wake up and >> you find out what you've done.

[00:36:11]>> How um what was the consequences of uh that?

[00:36:14]>> I got 5 years and 3 years um I got a threeear sentence in and two year parole.

[00:36:20]>> Okay.

[00:36:20]>> So I got out when I was 21. And where'd you where'd you do your time?

[00:36:23]>> So I did my did the young offenders program at John [ __ ] and went through the um Oberon process and >> and did the works release and went home after 3 years.

[00:36:32]>> Yeah.

[00:36:33]>> So on remand, Silver Water, Paramea, Park Lee.

[00:36:36]>> How how was that going in 18? Cuz there's a it's a different level, different environment going from uh juvenile detention to adult prison. How how how did you cope with that and how did you feel?

[00:36:49]Oh yeah, it was um it was like a real weird feeling because it's like I never left juvie.

[00:36:57]>> Yeah.

[00:36:57]>> And I was with two other people so co offenders. So I wasn't alone which kind of you know helped. You're not as fearful. You know you're going to jail as a kid. I was a wh I was a 18year-old little 70 kilo whippbit. So you know I'm going in there and you know there was always anxiety and fear.

[00:37:15]>> Yeah. And then but then as soon as I got in there I recognized majority of these guys. So of the guys my age.

[00:37:21]>> Yeah.

[00:37:21]>> And I was like oh >> okay. So I just >> this just the next >> just the next level.

[00:37:26]>> You've gone the secondary school.

[00:37:27]>> Yeah. Basically just keep moving forward.

[00:37:29]>> And then >> then you go to the young offenders place under 25s and you're just all the same age.

[00:37:34]>> Yeah.

[00:37:35]>> Doing it.

[00:37:36]>> Is there anything that could have could have changed you like at that that point in time when you're in there?

[00:37:42]>> No. No. I wasn't listening to anyone. I just thought being sober for three years and getting my head right, training every day, I eventually got a year 10 certificate in that that time.

[00:37:52]>> So you did some >> a little bit got an education and >> you know that that ignorance of me thought, "Oh, I'm sweet."

[00:38:00]>> And then soon as you step out, >> I was able to get a job and I had a girlfriend. Life was pretty good. But then I never addressed any issue. So then that started to resurface again.

[00:38:11]tell us like that's where I think a lot of mistakes are made like you you've done your stint in prison ideal situation is that uh okay you're going to come out and turn turn your life around. I get the sense when you released you did your three years. Yep.

[00:38:26]>> Uh I get the sense when you were released you didn't have a game plan.

[00:38:30]>> You just Yeah. Okay. Open the gates. Let me out and let's see what happens.

[00:38:35]>> Yeah. Everybody >> pretty obvious what what's going to happen. And that's why we've got the high recidivism.

[00:38:40]>> 100%. I'll start my new life and prepare everything the day I get out.

[00:38:43]>> Yeah.

[00:38:44]>> And I learned that this time.

[00:38:46]>> Yeah.

[00:38:46]>> Like all the mistakes that I've made, I reflected later on. But yeah, I just thought I'll start life when I get out.

[00:38:52]I thought I've got a job.

[00:38:53]>> Sweet.

[00:38:54]>> Yeah.

[00:38:55]>> But you know that's like foolish.

[00:38:58]>> What What was the what was the job you were going to?

[00:39:00]>> I was just working to in a roofing factory. Yeah. So open and shut roofing where a mate of mine was working and he's the boss let me in. I started working there. Yes. So, I had a job the first week I got out of jail and it in a routine, loving life. I thought, "Oh, yeah. I'm going to really change my life here."

[00:39:16]>> Did you think you were going to make a go of Did you think you were going to stay out?

[00:39:19]>> I really did. Yeah.

[00:39:20]>> Cuz I hated you. I didn't want to go back and I had a clear mind. I had a goal like just to work and try to But soon as I started drinking again slowly, it took about nine months.

[00:39:35]>> Yeah. And I just started to go back to old habits, you know, start hanging around the same people again.

[00:39:41]>> Did you at any point in time look at your your drinking and think, "Okay, this is where it all goes bad."

[00:39:47]>> Yeah, I hated drinking. I actually hated drinking.

[00:39:50]>> Did you consider getting help like AA or >> I never knew how to ask for help, man.

[00:39:55]And I was it was always ingrained in me you ask for help, you're weak.

[00:39:58]>> So I was always fighting that I wanted help.

[00:40:01]>> Yeah.

[00:40:02]>> But I had no idea how to ask for it. and nobody like I just it took many many years for me to finally say I need I need help you know but there's I would have I wasn't listen to anybody >> and I was just so hard-headed I had chip on my shoulder there's no way I'm going to express to anybody that I need help >> did you have anyone on the outside anyone that gave you a clip over the ear and said mate if you drink you're not a good person and you drink your life is going to be destroyed was there any any support in that way or >> my older brother tried to Yeah.

[00:40:34]>> But he's drinking himself.

[00:40:35]>> Okay.

[00:40:36]>> He's living his life.

[00:40:37]>> Yeah.

[00:40:38]>> So, and I was just and no one really was kind of going to game enough to say it to me, you know?

[00:40:42]>> Yeah.

[00:40:43]>> And like I would have just, you know, unleashed on them. I'm not an expert on addiction, alcohol, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever, but I I've spoken to enough people sitting opposite you that have gone down the path and uh a lot of them say you got to fix the cause to fix the drinking or the addiction. Why are you and taking on board what you said earlier on, were you finding relief from your your [ __ ] up life to a degree by Okay, let's just get on the drink and all the pain goes away.

[00:41:14]>> All the pain goes away. And >> but that's why I liked going to jail, too.

[00:41:18]>> Yeah.

[00:41:19]>> Because I didn't have to drink.

[00:41:21]>> I was taken away from me and I'm not a really a drug taker.

[00:41:24]>> Yeah.

[00:41:25]>> So, in jail, I was like, "Oh, I can just be normal."

[00:41:29]So like it was such a warped mentality.

[00:41:32]>> I didn't feel normal unless I was back in jail.

[00:41:35]>> Yeah.

[00:41:36]>> Like cuz I didn't want to hurt anybody anymore. Even from like around that age, I was like I just go to jail. And I that three years I was out after I was 21.

[00:41:45]>> Yeah.

[00:41:46]>> Like there was times there like I want to go to jail. Like I even I even got myself arrested and begged the police to barrel refuse me to go to jail >> because I was I knew that I was something was wrong with me. Well, just talk talk us through that. Like that must be hard to hard to come to terms with the fact that hey I need to be locked up because something bad >> and I went to the police station had a had got was in the piss in Manley with my misses got blind drunk had fights with security guards and whatnot.

[00:42:17]>> I snapped out of it got out of the pub and I just said a man I'm going.

[00:42:20]>> Yeah.

[00:42:21]>> And she's like where you going? So I'm going to jail.

[00:42:25]And then like she was trying to pull me and push me and I slapped her.

[00:42:29]>> Yeah.

[00:42:30]>> I said And then I just ran.

[00:42:32]>> Yeah.

[00:42:33]>> And I ran from the Stain Hotel to the Manley police station.

[00:42:37]>> And then my brother was with me.

[00:42:38]>> Yeah.

[00:42:39]>> And I took my watch off and my wallet, gave it to him. So where you going? I said, "I'm going to jail."

[00:42:43]>> And we're in the police station and the cops like comes out and he's like, "What are you doing?"

[00:42:48]>> And I grabbed the cop by the collar.

[00:42:50]Yeah.

[00:42:50]>> I said, "If you don't arrest me, I'm going to knock you out."

[00:42:53]>> Yeah. And my brother was like just flipping out saying he's on ice.

[00:42:56]>> Yeah.

[00:42:56]>> And this cop was just I don't think he's ever come across anything like that in his life. And then one of the the cobbers came out. He kind of knew me from the gym.

[00:43:04]>> Yeah.

[00:43:04]>> I said, "Come in here." I said, "Yeah, I'll come in at the dock as long as you bar refuse me. I'll tell you a crime that I've committed just now. Slap my misses."

[00:43:11]>> Yeah.

[00:43:12]>> And then he just thought I was crazy and was blind drunk.

[00:43:15]>> And he said, "Just go to sleep." And I said, "No, no, no. You have to charge me." And he promised me that he'd charge me and Bar refuse me. And I woke up and then the female cops like wake up being bailed.

[00:43:27]>> Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:28]>> And then that was in February. Oh, Australia Day.

[00:43:31]>> Yeah.

[00:43:32]>> And in June I went to jail for murder.

[00:43:34]>> Right.

[00:43:35]>> So I knew something was wrong with me.

[00:43:37]>> Yeah.

[00:43:37]>> And that that was my cry for help.

[00:43:41]But I didn't know how to ask for help.

[00:43:43]And I got released from the from the cells. Went straight home. My miss there slapping me. What did you have for?

[00:43:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh."

[00:43:51]>> Were you getting any any um professional help?

[00:43:54]>> No, I never spoke to anybody.

[00:44:00]>> No. And was your mom still in the >> Yeah. Mom I was living at mom's house at the time and she's still on heroin, mate.

[00:44:06]>> Yeah. So >> we had a toxic relationship there. So she's in her own hell.

[00:44:10]>> I'm in mine.

[00:44:11]>> Yeah.

[00:44:12]>> Yeah.

[00:44:13]>> The whole family were.

[00:44:14]>> So this is just in the sequence of events. We know you've done your time in juvenile. You've you've got out. You're locked up eight days after. Spent three years in in prison and then you're out.

[00:44:27]The incident you just talked about then was two years out out of prison.

[00:44:31]>> Three years out.

[00:44:32]>> Three years out.

[00:44:33]>> It was 2010.

[00:44:35]>> What other type of stuff were you you're doing in the in the leadup to this?

[00:44:39]>> Oh, by that time I was fully living a criminal life.

[00:44:42]>> You weren't working?

[00:44:43]>> No.

[00:44:44]>> So just stealing or whatever you could make a dollar. I was just making money.

[00:44:48]>> Yeah.

[00:44:48]>> And I wasn't doing good things.

[00:44:50]>> Yeah.

[00:44:50]>> I wasn't hanging around good people.

[00:44:53]>> I was locked in.

[00:44:54]>> Yeah.

[00:44:55]>> To that world and um just ticking time bomb.

[00:45:00]>> Yeah.

[00:45:01]>> Well, I suppose the inevitable uh inevitable happens and I if I looked at you if I was looking at from a cop's point of view and I'm looking at the history, okay, it's only a matter of time before he does something bad that's going to put him away for a long time.

[00:45:16]And that's actually uh actually what uh what happened. So >> with uh the leadup to um the murder of uh Eden Brown, what was your mindset? I I think you you've explained it to a degree, but I'm just trying to >> Oh, man. Um I didn't care if I lived or died, >> you know? I was in a dark place. I was >> like I think I held on till 24, >> right?

[00:45:49]>> Like through all the trauma and all the [ __ ] that I went through.

[00:45:53]>> I never spoke and by the age of 24 I think I just it all came out. I was going to die.

[00:46:02]>> Yeah.

[00:46:03]>> Or go to jail for a very long time.

[00:46:05]>> And you know I think I just burst.

[00:46:09]Everything was I broke. Is it was an anger building up inside you?

[00:46:14]>> Yeah. There was man, there was hate and rage.

[00:46:18]>> Like I don't think I've ever met anyone as angry as me.

[00:46:20]>> Yeah.

[00:46:21]>> And full of rage.

[00:46:22]>> So would that play out if someone just bumped you the wrong way or disrespected you or what?

[00:46:26]>> Yeah. Like I wasn't like to my I'm a loyal guy. I love my mates. I'm normal.

[00:46:31]But then if it clicks, it's like that's it.

[00:46:33]>> Yeah.

[00:46:33]>> We're on and I just go >> all got friends like that. But the glazed eyes come over and the Yeah.

[00:46:39]>> See you later.

[00:46:40]Um, you know, anything could happen.

[00:46:43]>> What happened the night uh Eden was killed?

[00:46:47]>> Just a normal night, man. I just went down to a m's minds who called me.

[00:46:50]>> Mhm.

[00:46:50]>> Just for a couple beers down about, you know, 15 minutes from my house.

[00:46:55]>> Yeah.

[00:46:56]>> And that was in the afternoon sometime.

[00:46:58]And I rocked up with a case and bottle >> with a mate of mine and um we just started drinking. It was just normal, you know. There wasn't anything. And people just kept coming and going and coming >> just a party of >> Yeah. It just started like a gathering and then eventually you know there was nearly up to 30 to 40 people there I reckon at one time >> and by the time I remember like it's probably like 10:00 and I was waiting for my MS to come about 12:00 she was coming after work so I thought I'll just stay I'll just drink till then and then I'll head off. M >> but then it just all went pear shape, man. Like I I was so blind. Like I I just remember sitting in a garage, everyone was drinking.

[00:47:45]A lot of guys are on coconut, but I didn't take any cocaine or anything. And um I remember like Eden wasn't there till maybe like I don't know later in the night, 10ish, 11ish. And I remember getting asked that to bring Eden and I said, "No, no, don't bring Eden here, man. Like, like this is not his scene, man."

[00:48:10]>> And I just knew like something pop off and I said, "No, no, don't bring him here." And I I didn't want to call him >> and and like nobody knows this stuff, but And I won't say names or anything.

[00:48:24]>> Yeah.

[00:48:25]>> But I And they kept saying to me, "Call him, you know." And eventually I just got so drunk. I said, "Oh, [ __ ] I'll call him." And I remember Eden saying to me, "Are you going to be there?" I said, "Yeah, I'm here. I'm here till about midnight, then I'm going." I said, he's like, "I'll only come if you come. I don't trust no one. I don't trust these guys, you know." I said, "Yeah, yeah."

[00:48:47]And I said whatever I said to him and he came. He came with I think three three girls >> and everything's no worries. drinking, fun, just normal stuff.

[00:48:59]And then I remember going outside and I was blind, man. And went to the toilet, which is chucked a leak in the backyard.

[00:49:08]And then as I picked up my beer, turned around, you know, I just see a fight, which is normal.

[00:49:15]>> Mhm.

[00:49:15]>> Didn't think anything of it. And then I realized it was Eden and he's getting, you know, getting attacked. And um and that's where I black out, man.

[00:49:27]>> And then after that, I just hear screams after I black out. I've some I've come to somehow I remember someone grabbing me or something. I'm not 100% sure, man. I just remember snapping out of whatever I was in.

[00:49:42]And um you know I heard these screams and uh I saw Eden run away and he ran through a fence, a color bond fence like you know he's fear for his life and um I remember that and then we just left and then went to two other houses after that and I just thought, "Oh yeah, okay.

[00:50:11]punch on. Didn't think anything of it again. And I've got no blood on me or anything like that. Like, and then I I just continued to drink.

[00:50:21]Just kept drinking. And then it was like maybe 6:00 in the morning or something. And I was at this house and they said, "Oh, a couple guys got arrested at the scene." And I was like, "Okay, why? Just for the fight?" And they're like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Okay."

[00:50:40]And then one of the ladies that was at the house was ringing hospitals and I was like, "Okay." And then finally around the hospital and they said, "You know, Eden Brown's passed away."

[00:50:50]>> And I was like, I was like, "All right." Couldn't put my head like I couldn't understand how cuz I had no idea that he'd been stabbed at that time.

[00:51:02]And um so I left and I was like started to sober up and I was like what's I couldn't get any answers and I just had this feeling like all right they're coming for me and um I didn't really know why they come for me. I just just had this feeling and and I knew the guys I was with they're going to say it's me anyway. M >> and um I watched the news that night and they said eaten the man died at a house party >> been stabbed.

[00:51:41]>> Yeah. Then I found out he'd been stabbed and I was like okay.

[00:51:45]And I was just waiting and I had to I was like okay. But the police didn't raid my any my like my mom's house, my brother's house or anyone till the Monday. I think this happened on the Saturday or something. And then on Monday, I got the call from one of my brothers saying, "Mate, they've raided the hol these houses for for you for murder." And I said, "Okay."

[00:52:05]So pretty much then I just got drunk until they arrested me in King's Cross for 3 weeks.

[00:52:10]>> How how long after?

[00:52:12]>> 3 weeks.

[00:52:13]>> Okay. So, my understanding of it, and I'm only going through um information that was contained in the media about the time that there was the fight at the party and that he was uh he was stabbed twice.

[00:52:27]>> Yeah.

[00:52:27]>> And uh you've pleaded guilty to it. No one else has been uh no one else has been charged in relation to it.

[00:52:35]>> No. So, and I take on board what you said um during that second trial to your solicitor obviously was uh incriminating against you. That's why had to take it off.

[00:52:50]>> I've se I've I've seen fights. I've seen drunken fights. I've seen stuff stuff happen. I haven't haven't seen it to that extent in my personal life, but I've seen it in my policing life where uh you know, someone ends up dead. Did you at that point in time leading up to it where you tried to hand yourself into the cops, you were concerned you were going to do something stupid? Stupid is a nice way of putting it, but yeah, you were going to cause some damage.

[00:53:16]>> The knife the knife that was used uh used for the murder. Did you bring the knife to the party?

[00:53:21]>> I've never carried my knife a knife in my life. I was just >> That knife was from the from the kitchen >> was out of the block.

[00:53:29]>> Yeah.

[00:53:29]>> It was a steak knife.

[00:53:30]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:31]>> And I don't even know. I I remember that knife being in the garage because I was opening Coronas with it >> cuz there's no ball opener. That's why the reason the knife was in the garage, >> right? Okay.

[00:53:40]>> That's what I do know.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:42]>> And that was a knife that >> that um that took his life.

[00:53:46]>> Did you uh did you have any injuries from the from the fight that that you >> didn't have a drop of blood?

[00:53:52]>> Didn't have an injury.

[00:53:53]>> Nothing. when you found out he he died and you were thinking that the U police are going to come uh come after you and clearly from what you told your uh your solicitor and the and barrister you had some recollection of it. Do you recall being in the fight at all or what the anger what >> I definitely I know I went towards the fight.

[00:54:14]>> Yeah.

[00:54:14]>> And obviously I blacked out at that stage.

[00:54:17]>> Yeah.

[00:54:18]>> And you know and Eden said that I I stabbed him.

[00:54:21]>> Yeah.

[00:54:22]>> Before he died.

[00:54:23]>> Right. So in a in a dying deposition.

[00:54:25]>> Yeah. Dying declaration. He said Anthony Jones stabbed me.

[00:54:28]>> Right. Okay.

[00:54:34]I I want to ask how you feel, but just p piecing it all together. And uh yeah, if I was sitting and this is uncomfortable, we're in a in a podcast. If I'm sitting in an interview room as a homicide detective, I'm asking you a few few more questions. Well, how'd the knife get into your hand? That that type of stuff.

[00:54:53]When the cops arrested you, did uh you participate in an interview?

[00:54:56]>> I was refused to speak.

[00:54:57]>> Right. So, and which is is your right and >> I've never spoke till now.

[00:55:02]>> Right. Okay.

[00:55:03]>> This is the first time anybody's going to hear anything.

[00:55:05]>> Right.

[00:55:06]>> This is the first time, man.

[00:55:08]>> Okay. Well, when you first when did you first find find out that uh Eden had passed away?

[00:55:15]When the girl phoned the hospital?

[00:55:16]>> When the girl found the hospital. Yeah.

[00:55:18]>> Yeah. And I would ask you if we're sitting in an interview room like why do you think you were the person responsible for it?

[00:55:26]>> Yeah. I don't know what the police really said to me.

[00:55:28]>> They asked me like questions. I remember but I don't know what they were.

[00:55:31]>> I just said man I'm not talking. Just charge me.

[00:55:34]>> Yeah.

[00:55:34]>> Take them back to the dock.

[00:55:36]>> That's as far as I went. They knew that I wasn't going to say anything.

[00:55:38]>> I would would imagine that uh if given the fact that they did charge you with it. You've got the the dying declaration that uh Eden has said that you you stabbed him and there would have been witnesses at the party. I I would suggest some of the witnesses would have said I've seen nothing when they they might have but there must have been some witnesses that that that uh gave some evidence about what took place.

[00:56:01]>> Yeah. Someone there was a few crowd witnesses against me.

[00:56:05]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:06]>> Um but no one saw the crime. No one conclusively said what they saw. I could say was me >> in a circumstances like that where mid trial and then the solicitor's talking to the DPP and uh I what we would call it settle settle on some agreed facts.

[00:56:25]>> Yeah.

[00:56:25]>> So the the facts would be okay your side you been the defense and the prosecutor agree that these are the facts of what's occurred uh what's occurred with this uh incident. Were you comfortable with the agreed facts? Uh yeah, I didn't really I don't think I I read it but I didn't really process it.

[00:56:45]>> But you had your solicitor.

[00:56:47]>> Yeah, he read it to me and I decided Yeah, he really did. He went above and beyond for me, man. He um >> Right.

[00:56:53]>> He's a decent man and >> um >> Yeah, like Yeah, he really he really believed in me and helped me as much as he could. Okay. So, some or or going over what we've talked about, you're taking responsibility for it.

[00:57:11]>> For sure.

[00:57:12]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:57:13]>> That's it's me.

[00:57:14]>> All right.

[00:57:15]>> Um there was never premeditation, man.

[00:57:17]>> Um I never had any there was never a thought in my mind to kill to kill anybody or Eden that night.

[00:57:25]>> That's the uh that's the frustration I got as a homicide detective. Yeah.

[00:57:30]>> How many times and people go murderers that they've planned it they're doing this and the um even and this might or I won't say annoy but people might disagree where people say mandatory sentences in u murder or if you murder someone you should get life. There's a lot of different types of murders that people don't quite understand.

[00:57:56]And knives. I often see that. I I've seen people get stabbed 20 times and they don't die.

[00:58:02]>> Yeah. And then I see people that get stabbed once, a couple of teenagers, and someone pulls out a pen knife and stabs them and and they die.

[00:58:10]>> It's that's a risk inherited with um you know, if if you do uh do you use a weapon, >> but yeah, it's it's must be difficult for you sitting here talking about it.

[00:58:22]I'm I'm sitting here from a homicide detective's point of view going I want to go here I want to go there and and all that but I appreciate you um you you being open and and talking about it.

[00:58:33]We'll take a break now when when we get back. I I did tell you that the um sister of Eden's sister representing the the family had a few things that she wanted me to to ask you. And I think we also need to uh clarify why we're sitting down and and talking is that uh you know one of the things that's impressed me is how you have turned your life around and and the direction your life is on now. And we're going to going to talk about that at length because it's very rare that someone comes in to a situation like this with a person like me and sits down and and talks about what uh what we're talking about. So let's have a break. It's a heavy heavy conversation. There is some there is some light at the end of the tunnel. I I'll I'll say that otherwise people mightn't come back.

[00:59:18]>> Yeah, sounds good, mate.

[00:59:19]>> Cheers.