Susannah Fielding: Attachment Theory Changed How I Parent

Ajouté : 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]I got woken up at 5:30 WITH ALFIE SCREAMING, "MARMY, GET INTO MY BED." SO, I went and got into his bed. Then he shouted at me for being in his bed. Then he demanded I go and make him some toast. And then he weed all over me.

[00:00:14]>> Well, my plan being a control freak was to have a C-section and just be like, "Right, then I can plan it. I know what time it will be. It will be on this day.

[00:00:21]I I'll have my bag packed and off we all go." But then the sort of the hormones started to flood in towards the end and I decided to have a water bath in the kitchen.

[00:00:32]>> So different.

[00:00:33]>> I just felt so chilled out throughout the whole thing to the point where like at one point my boyfriend said to me, "What are you thinking? Do you want to carry on at home or do you want to go into hospital?" And this is while things were still going quite well. And I was like, "Yeah, do you know I don't really mind. Like whatever." He was like, "What? You're the person that cares how the towels are folded. Who is this? Who is this free and easy like happy golucky woman? A few hours later that the uh doctor came in and checked me and was said, "You're not 8 cm dilated. You're 4 cm dilated."

[00:01:06]>> So she said that because the baby had been sort of smashing his head against my cervix that it had swollen just swollen up.

[00:01:15]>> Um so of course that point she was like emergency C-section now. They were literally about to do the incision and then a emergency came in. A bigger emergency came in. So the entire operating staff left.

[00:01:29]>> Oh wow.

[00:01:30]>> And left me on the slab for 4 hours.

[00:01:33]>> Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mom. Um today's guest is actually someone who was in my life about 18 years ago. Uh I did I'd done a play uh with someone that she knew and we started hanging out for a little while and then life happened as it does.

[00:01:48]uh and we haven't really been in contact since just the odd bit on Instagram to be honest. So when her name popped up in my diary I was so happy uh to see that we were going to be having this chat.

[00:01:59]It's Susanna Fielding. She's an amazing actress. Uh was in theater a lot. Got a lot of awards for her theater stuff.

[00:02:05]Then went into a lot of TV uh TV work and is now uh going into rehearsals for Srano de Berserk. That's how I say it.

[00:02:14]Common old me. She says it much more fancier. And uh she also says it at the end in a French accent which is amazing.

[00:02:20]In all of my research for this chat uh Susanna's not really spoken about well she hasn't spoken about motherhood. We could find zilch. Um so much so that lovely producer Alex had to just make sure that she did have a child. I knew that she had a child but she's just not spoken about it. That was really fun actually uh going into this chat knowing that you know she is someone that I have a history with a very happy history with. um and that I was going to learn about this whole area of her life along with you about how motherhood has um presented itself I guess in the last few years. We talk a lot about uh bonds in this and about ta attachment theory uh about being a good enough parent about the stresses and anxiety that comes with being everything that you that you hope you can be for your child. Often in life, we go into parenting worried about all the things that we're not going to be able to bring to the table or or just kind of going, "H, am I going to get this right?" Uh, I think this chat is all about learning that you will get things wrong, but that's okay.

[00:03:29]>> No. And I need a lot of sleep. I mean, ideally 10 hours, >> which is one of was like my major fear having a baby. I was like, I might lose my mind. And I have surv I mean I've survived it, but I'd say I sur I've survived it.

[00:03:44]>> I wouldn't say I've thrived.

[00:03:46]>> But you're not getting 10 hours now.

[00:03:48]>> God, no. No. I mean I mean sometimes sometimes I'll get maybe like eight, you know, on a good night. I I do sometimes get into my pajamas when he does.

[00:03:58]>> I think that's a really good move. Yeah.

[00:04:00]I I do it still now. I'm like, we're going upstairs. Let's do That's one less thing to do.

[00:04:04]>> Exactly. And sometimes you're so tired, aren't you, by 10:00, you're like, I haven't been bothered to wash my face.

[00:04:09]>> I know. Sometimes I brush my teeth when the kids brush their teeth. Yeah.

[00:04:12]>> First of all, you stop snacking.

[00:04:14]>> Yeah.

[00:04:14]>> And you are one step closer.

[00:04:16]>> Yeah. I call it bed ready.

[00:04:18]>> Yeah.

[00:04:19]>> Yeah. I'm getting bed ready. Not not ready for bed, but I'm getting bed ready.

[00:04:22]>> Just in case. Just in case.

[00:04:24]>> Yeah.

[00:04:24]>> Are you good when when you do bedtime, um, are you a kind of a say good night out the door or are you having to lie in there? It's a bit of a it's we we're kind of heading into a I think a nice little patch where we do two stories and then a lights out story which usually involves him listing a long a large number of characters that must be contained in this story.

[00:04:44]>> Well, you just have to make it up.

[00:04:45]>> I have to make it up. Yeah. Which I can do. He also asked me to do it while I'm driving sometimes and I realized the other day actually no I can't do that.

[00:04:52]That is not that is not safe. Um but yeah so he will but he's so knackered because he's just dropped his nap. So he's so knackered that he's falling asleep quite easily at the moment. But when he was still having a nap, sometimes bedtime would take 3 hours and you're just like, I can't do this.

[00:05:07]>> I thought Yeah, that's the thing though cuz I I I think people don't really realize how long that sleep routine can take.

[00:05:13]>> I know. Yeah. Putting them to bed. I didn't understand what that meant. Like pop them into bed >> 2 in the morning.

[00:05:20]>> Yeah. Not at all. And it changes all the time, doesn't it? But I suppose maybe your boys are read are they reading their own books now? uh one of the I mean when you're one of three, the oldest of three, you're always going to be the one that's kind of having to be Yeah, it's a self-service, you know, go to this isn't you're not part of this now. Yeah. He goes and sorts himself out. Um and then the other two will generally read to us at bedtime, which is nice. Nice.

[00:05:45]>> Yeah. Although I do find that the weight of a book over the last 12 years, it get my hands are tired. I don't want to hold the book anymore. Just you know what I mean? It's kind of that falling on your face. Yes.

[00:05:57]>> Um, so that is nice. However, two of them, they go through different stages actually. Sometimes they're very happy for us to go, uh, I've got to go downstairs and get some work done. Um, see you in the morning. Um, and other times they want us to lie with them. And most of the time >> I'm okay with that cuz closing my eyes.

[00:06:14]>> Yeah.

[00:06:14]>> I play the game of let's see who falls asleep first, knowing full well it's going to be me within 4 seconds.

[00:06:20]>> Sometimes I'm like, shh, mama's sleeping.

[00:06:23]I came in the room the other night and Mark had been trying to put Alfie to bed and he'd just gone to have a little nap on the bed because he was obviously so tired and Alfie was asleep in a chair like this. I like this bedtime didn't really go to plan but he is asleep so you have you have ticked the tick the box in my respect just >> on a hard dining chair.

[00:06:47]>> Oh yeah. Anyway, >> how is the dropping of nap going? Um, well, it's in some ways it gives you freedom, doesn't it? Because I, you know, when they're really small, you're always working to a schedule of like we've got to get home by 12, otherwise it's all going to fall apart. Um, so it is quite nice. And and it means he's going to bed at like half 6. So I'm getting a really evening.

[00:07:06]>> That is nice. That is nice.

[00:07:08]>> Yeah. Although, yeah, it's going to be, you know, a little bit little bit trickier when I've got to go and do a play in the evenings and um and he's going to be awake all day. Yeah. Because that mid that middle of the day like island >> getting stuff done for yourself.

[00:07:22]>> Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. Actually, it feels like a distant memory now, but you would work towards it sometimes, wouldn't you?

[00:07:29]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:30]>> Mine went through a um two of them actually went through a long period of only going to sleep half an hour. It would literally be like put them down and they were a bit difficult to get down to sleep at various points. Getting them down and slowly like backing out of the room like a ninja. Yeah.

[00:07:47]>> Getting downstairs, doing maybe one of the jobs, and then hearing a cry and be like, I haven't even sat down yet. I haven't even gone for a week. What is this?

[00:07:56]>> Oh my god, it's heartbreaking.

[00:07:57]Especially if it's taken you an hour to get them to go to sleep. You're like, this is not a good use of my time.

[00:08:02]>> This is not what I signed up for.

[00:08:03]>> No, no, it's bleak. The threehour sort of middle of the day when they're babies, that feels like >> I know kiss.

[00:08:11]>> Well, how are you feeling about the old missing bedtimes thing? Yeah, it's um it will be difficult. I mean, >> because you did it last year.

[00:08:20]>> Yeah, I did two plays back toback. So, actually that ended up being like from April till November um not doing bedtimes. And >> yeah, I I was ready for a change. I was definitely ready for a shift in my routine and to get back to work and use my brain and hope that my brain was still there in in some way. Um but I yeah, it is it is hard. It is that nice sort of closing of the day together, isn't it? And also, like I say, I like to get into my pajamas at 6:00, so it's going to be it's going to be a real wakeup call.

[00:08:52]>> Yeah, it's going to be a real wakeup call, but I am really looking forward to getting back to work. You know, there's you have different parts of you, don't you? And I I love the fact that with my job, I do get to really focus on being a mom for a few months at a time, >> but then there's always a bit of me that's kind of itching to use that other bit of me.

[00:09:08]>> Why don't you say as well, the majority of your day, you are still going to be a mom. Yeah, I will.

[00:09:13]>> The evenings that you have to go out.

[00:09:14]>> Exactly. I mean, the worry slightly is that you kind of go to sleep at 1:00 a.m. and they wake up at half 5, six, >> and then you're just like walking dead all day. But, um, yeah, I'll have to I'll have to have a lunchtime nap. Maybe he'll put me down for a lunchtime nap.

[00:09:28]That would be ideal. Read me Peter Rabbit.

[00:09:34]>> Well, it sounds like he's already doing that anyway with a partner.

[00:09:36]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, >> he's worked things out.

[00:09:38]>> He's like they've got it sorted. Yeah.

[00:09:40]Um I I've got to say there's something about being I don't know whether it's theater but there's something about stepping away from the house being in that space where for that period of time when you're on stage nothing else exists >> and you are as a company really holding each other >> there's something very very very special about being part of that and I I always find it kind of >> that fulfills me in a very different way.

[00:10:09]>> Yeah. I really missed it. I I didn't do so I started my career doing almost all theater for 10 years. I did backto-back plays pretty much with some gaps of unemployment of course and then 10 years where I didn't do any theater at all.

[00:10:22]>> Yeah. I saw this in an interview and I was like wow >> how did that happen?

[00:10:26]>> Yeah.

[00:10:26]>> Yeah. It wasn't a choice at all. I mean partly I suppose there was a choice around the age of 30. I was like, "Oh, I really need to make some money at some point because otherwise I'm going to be living in this basement flat looking out onto a wall when I'm 60." Um, and so I I kind of really set my sights on trying to get some more TV work. And I I had this sort of wild experience of putting myself on tape for a show in America, which you know, people actors do day in day out, right? You send these tapes off, you never hear anything back.

[00:10:57]>> But I got this call saying they're really interested. um can you get on a plane on Tuesday and go and meet all the producers and do a test? And I I was like, what? This is wild. Anyway, it felt like a sort of universe thing. I do slightly believe in that that things things happen and come into your life when you need them.

[00:11:15]>> Um and so anyway, that show ended up getting picked up and I moved to LA and signed a six-year contract. And thankfully, it didn't run for six years cuz much as I love LA, it's a kind of a crazy place, different place to live.

[00:11:29]Yeah. and certainly not somewhere I'd want to be long term. Um, but that sort of kickstarted TV a bit for me. And um, >> so I ended up doing that for 10 years and I think I was afraid maybe to go back and do a play. There's a part of you that goes, "Oh god, can I still do it?"

[00:11:44]>> But you had such an amazing run before that switch.

[00:11:49]>> Yeah, it it requires real courage and and I think you do panic that you'll kind of lose your nerve. Um, so yeah, I was I was really glad to get back to it, but I I really did wonder like I thought, do I really still enjoy this?

[00:12:03]And I and I was also so much in baby mode. I'd been, you know, full-time mumming for two years. I remember going to a press night at the theater and sort of standing there and thinking, I don't think I'm really part of this world anymore.

[00:12:15]>> That's a really weird feeling, isn't it?

[00:12:16]>> Yeah. Sort of like satelliting around it. And I said to my friend, I don't know if this is really me anymore.

[00:12:22]>> And she was like, it will be. it will be. And um yeah, six weeks later it was my press night and there I was, you know, sort of in in my element again and she went, "See, I told you."

[00:12:35]>> Um >> but do you think that motherhood affected your confidence in terms of going back on stage?

[00:12:41]>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, I really think my brain went to jelly. I I couldn't, you know, I'd be trying to talk to new people and not be able to think of the right words. any joke I might have made the punch line was gone like you know I just the telling of it oh I don't know where I'm going power down halfway through the sentence >> and yeah I I became quite sort of nervous about speaking because I just think your brain isn't functioning the same way and it's it's sort of clinically proven isn't it that your you are your brain chemistry changes and the matter changes so that you are focused on your baby and and so all that kind of all the skill set of being an actor which is so much about having plates spinning, like saying the lines, knowing where you are on stage, noticing that your co-stars forgotten their prop, hearing the audience member coughing, but you're still saying your monologue, you know, all of that skill set. It kind of doesn't feel like it's there anymore.

[00:13:36]>> Um, and you're much more just focused on the sort of Yeah. the the routine of taking care of someone. But it it did come back thankfully. And I I I feel like for me, I made the right decision to not go back too soon.

[00:13:49]>> Yeah. I was offered a couple of really lovely opportunities when Alfie was four months old and it was really really really hard not to do that job. It was a sort of career changing job and it was going to go to Broadway and I just knew for me that I couldn't manage it all and there were lots of people saying to me, "Oh, you can do it. You can do it." And I I really think you can and people have proven that you can. Yeah. Um, but for me it felt like it was going to be too much for my nervous system if nothing else, you know?

[00:14:20]>> But that's a really hard thing to juggle, isn't it? Because >> you what is right in one way or what might work and what other people perceive as No, it's it's doable.

[00:14:30]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:31]>> Maybe doesn't feel like it sits right for you and and actually your judgment call within that is is is it's not easy to make.

[00:14:39]>> Yeah. It was I had a helpful convers I sort of deliberated for ages and had a helpful conversation with a friend and she said I know you you're just going to be in rehearsals watching your what looking at your watch going when can I go when can I go when can I go >> and that's not the right kind of energy to bring into a a job you you know as we both know you have to be so committed to what you're doing um to get the most enjoyment out of it as well as to be as good and to honor all your other castmates um and the director but I I just knew that she was right and that I would be constantly feeling like I was should be somewhere else. And you know, I have one child. I'd love to have another one at some point in the future, but I don't know if I will. And I guess I didn't want to feel like, oh, kind of missed it.

[00:15:24]>> Yeah.

[00:15:25]>> You know, whereas there'll always be another play.

[00:15:27]>> Yeah.

[00:15:27]>> Hopefully.

[00:15:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. What was the nudge to kind of go, well, now the time's right.

[00:15:33]>> To go back to work.

[00:15:34]>> Yeah.

[00:15:35]>> Um I suppose Yeah. um an offer came in of something that was sort of handed to me and I thought yeah that would be a really fun and also if I'm being completely honest it was in a theater that was like a 10-minute train journey from my house >> which makes a massive difference >> massive yeah and those things suddenly become a really important part of your decision- making like can I be you know can I get back easily if I need to is it going to exhaust me doing another a really long commute or would I have to travel to Manchester and All of those things as you know as a mom become so much more a part of your decision- making. Um so yeah what what the sort of most appealing jobs now are and not necessarily the most exciting ones.

[00:16:17]Sometimes the two align and sometimes you just have to put that on the back burner for a bit.

[00:16:21]>> Yeah.

[00:16:22]>> So you had your long stint your long run last year. How are you feeling about this year?

[00:16:28]>> I'm yeah I'm looking forward to going back. I mean I'm right in the middle of um toddler twos. Um, >> you are out that door someday. I am not dealing with this now.

[00:16:40]Good luck.

[00:16:42]>> See you in four months time when I hope you'll be a little bit more palatable.

[00:16:46]>> No, I mean he's >> he is adorable. Of course. This is the thing about this age. It's such a roller coaster, isn't it?

[00:16:53]>> Toes. God. And you have these like glorious moments where they say something or you connect with them or you realize they've understood something that you didn't un know they had or and then you have this morning like he I got woken up at 5:30 with ALFIE SCREAMING, "MOMMY, GET INTO MY BED." So I went and got into his bed. Then he shouted at me for being in his bed. Then he demanded I go and make him some toast. And then he weed all over me.

[00:17:22]I'm like, "Okay, is I wouldn't call this my favorite morning."

[00:17:29]So, yeah, I was like, "Are you weighing on me?" Yeah.

[00:17:33]Okay.

[00:17:35]So yeah, we're we're in we're in that.

[00:17:37]Lots of big emotions and yeah, lots of lots of tantrums and >> I I feel kind of as prepared as I can in terms of reading books and educating myself on how to handle them. But >> but it's wearing. It's really wearing.

[00:17:52]>> Well, it is also hard when we've read all the books to kind of go, "Oh, I've got so many things I must put in practice right now."

[00:17:57]>> 100%. And I've got to get it right and if I don't get it right, these are the potential ramifications. But that book said that oh but I forgot to do that bit. It's a lot of pressure >> and yeah it is helpful because I think at least sometimes you feel like you have a bit of a road map >> and if you don't have that you're just relying on what your own parenting experience was which is you know may have been great but may not have been.

[00:18:21]Um and so yeah I but it's also adds a whole layer of responsibility that I think our parents generation just didn't really have.

[00:18:29]>> Yeah. And we won't know the benefit of that for perhaps another 20 years.

[00:18:33]>> I'm sure there's something else we're doing wrong. You know what I mean? We'll be in therapy for something. We just don't know what that thing is yet.

[00:18:39]>> Exactly. I mean, we absolutely will.

[00:18:41]We'll be criticized for being too soft or giving them too much space for them.

[00:18:45]Not making them kind of just get on with it. Stop moaning. Get on with it. Like we were told.

[00:18:49]>> Just think of like my my childhood. Like I had a lovely childhood, but I would say that we did what our we were on our parents schedules. Yeah. Like at weekends we were visiting their friends.

[00:18:59]We were doing we were watching their TV shows. We were listening to music that they wanted to listen to. Yeah.

[00:19:04]>> You know what I mean? Like I s said to Tom the other day, it's really bizarre how our our lives are so child focused, so child led, >> you know, that we actually don't it's really just I find it really fascinating.

[00:19:18]>> Yeah. I mean, a lot of my childhood is remembering just sort of waiting around for my mom to do stuff.

[00:19:23]>> Yeah.

[00:19:23]>> Being dragged around, you know, CNA or whatever. sitting in the bank playing with the bank, you know, the pen, those tiny pens in the bank or whatever.

[00:19:32]>> That was so exciting. A trip trip to the bank to play with the tiny pens. We might be able to write some rogue pieces of paper.

[00:19:39]>> Exactly. That was a day out in our day, wasn't it? And we'd be flamming grateful for it as well.

[00:19:46]>> Back in my day, we just went through the pins.

[00:19:49]>> How have we got here, G? I know.

[00:19:52]>> Absolutely no. It's crazy. Yeah, but is it is a very it is a very different thing and I suppose I don't know may maybe we've gone a little bit far the other way.

[00:20:01]>> What was your childhood like?

[00:20:03]>> You and your mom.

[00:20:04]>> It was just me and my mom. So yeah, no siblings and my dad was not really around. He was sort of in intermittently in and out of my life which I think you know has had quite a profound impact on my own kind of romantic relationships and my own sense of self and is probably why I became an actor. you know, um you've got to have some sort of wound, I think, to want to become an actor. Um but my mom, you know, was incredibly capable, thank God. She brought me up on her own with no money and no support.

[00:20:36]And that has taught me some amazing life skills.

[00:20:40]I really don't think I would be doing the job or have made it work in the way that I have been able to without that sort of, you know, challenging start. Watching her kind of hustle and find ways to bring money in and keep a roof over our heads kind of against the odds. You know, it teaches you to be really resilient and and kind of I'm a bit of a hustler, I guess. You know, I've kind of I don't have that safety net. I don't have and I never have and so I have to make it work and there's something about that I think that you know gives you a real drive. Um but yeah, I mean my mom my mom is kind of an inspiration in that sense, but I think you know it was it was hard having only one parent and and yeah, I do think that's has that's really impacted I guess yeah my my sort of sense of self and I've have to have done a lot of work to try and you know improve my own self-esteem and um recover from that abandonment I suppose you might call it.

[00:21:43]that important to you before starting your own family as well.

[00:21:47]>> Yeah. And I think of course when you have children, anything you haven't dealt with comes rearing up, doesn't it?

[00:21:53]Just at the time when you don't have the capacity to deal with it. So yeah, I I did I did know that I had to kind of look at that stuff. And I also was choosing partners who were just unbelievably unsuitable and reflective of my dad. And so it became obvious after a while that that was something that I really needed to kind of turn the wheel on and steer the ship in a different direction which you know again thankfully like I had the money to do that and um and was able to pay for therapy you know I think I've been lucky in lots of ways as well. Um but yeah, I think trying not to pass on my own kind of trauma and issues to my child has become a major focus in the last sort of three years. Um yeah, he'll be three next week, so that's crazy.

[00:22:40]>> Um so yeah, in and maybe a bit of an obsession. I'm sure it is a bit of an obsession, but um I hope that if I don't if I don't manage to not pass it on at all, but that it's reduced at least.

[00:22:53]>> Yeah.

[00:22:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything in seeing your son as well though and and kind of having that connection and that bond and also going how like how do you to have a you know a broken relationship is one thing but not to have that constant >> care and love and uh place in your life as a parent.

[00:23:15]>> Yeah. That's got to be like to actually see your child and know that love and know like that's got that must be really hard to sort of not come to terms with but to to understand.

[00:23:25]>> Yeah. I think I've seen the decisions that my dad made in a really different light. I I don't have um I don't have a lot of time for it. I I worked you know quite hard to sort of repair that relationship during my 20s and 30s and I have stopped. Um that's you know that's the decision I've made. you know, other people might choose to do it differently, but >> um I also just don't want that kind of that energy to be in his life at all.

[00:23:51]>> Um and it is it's really hard to understand how you could not want to like reach out and >> you know, I haven't seen my dad for a long time, but I often find myself on stage thinking, why aren't you here? Why wouldn't you want to come and see me do this? you know, I find that really I I could just can't get my head around it that you wouldn't want to. Um, so yeah, it's it is still painful, but what I have now is a chance to make things different and >> and yeah, kind of change the story a bit.

[00:24:24]>> And I think that's sort of a really a beautiful thing about having the opportunity to have children, isn't it?

[00:24:30]that you can change the family, you know, generational kind of pattern of things and try and >> yeah, make something a little bit more positive out of it.

[00:24:40]>> Does it also make you look at your mom and kind of go, "Wow, you did all this on your own." And and and I think we also forget that not only would she have been doing on it, but she'd also have her own feelings and heartache and everything else that she was having to deal with whilst being the best mom to you.

[00:24:56]>> Yeah. I mean, it actually blows my mind.

[00:24:58]I sent her a message again. And I I was on my own for 4 days because my partner was away and it was really hard, you know, and there were bits of it which, you know, Alfie got ill and various other little challenges popped up. But I sent my mom a message saying, you know, I really want to say again how extraordinary I think it is what you did cuz there were special especially when you're overwhelmed or emotional or you've had a tough day just having someone come through the door where you can go over to you. I need to go and have a cry in the other room or >> over to you. I'm just not really coping with this situation and a change of energy and another person um to be there is just such a relief, isn't it? So >> yeah, I think it's pretty extraordinary and and you know, my mom didn't have the easiest childhood either, so she would have been dealing with all of her things that would have been popping up for her and and maybe without the sort of understanding of all of that and and how to cope with it. So I think it's pretty miraculous really that Yeah. that um that she did it and and I just have so much respect for anyone parenting on their own, whether they're co-parenting or single parent or >> Yeah. any kind of caregiver that's that's doing the lion's share on their own. It's it's just Yeah.

[00:26:10]>> Especially when you're not just dealing with the parent side, you're dealing with the your life side, the other side.

[00:26:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You've got to keep it all ticking along, haven't you?

[00:26:21]and and deal with your your own kind of stresses and bringing in money and all of the kind of dayto-day stuff. It's it's it's a lot. It's a it's a huge it's a huge challenge. Yeah.

[00:26:32]>> Did you always know that you wanted to have a family?

[00:26:36]>> Yeah, I I knew I did, particularly because I'd been from, you know, such a tiny family, just me and my mom, and so I always had this longing for to be part of something and to feel like I sort of belonged. Um but during my 20s I suppose I was really focused on you know just getting my career underway and so yeah it took until I was 38 to yeah to have Alfie but um I'm so and at that point I didn't know like am I going to be able to get pregnant easily and >> there's there's so many different factors like work-wise taking that taking that gap but also knowing not not knowing when that is going to be or if it's going to happen like how you plan for that. Yeah. And you can't. It's one of those things. And I am a big planner.

[00:27:18]I like to know exactly what's going on.

[00:27:20]I like to be in control. So, I did do all of what I could. You know, I was weeing on sticks and writing charts and, you know, my version of like controlling this totally uncontrollable thing of getting pregnant. Um, >> what made you feel like that moment was the right time to start?

[00:27:37]>> Well, I had a very early miscarriage and the excitement I felt >> finding out I was pregnant. And I was in Spain on a job and I um my period was late but I'd been kind of busy and I'd been flying a lot and so I didn't think much of it and then sort of realized oh god no I'm like two weeks late and um and my friend said do a pregnancy test don't be ridiculous anyway I'd never done one before so I didn't understand that you had to wait um so I weed on the stick went no I'm not no I'm not pregnant went to the shops came back went to put it in the bin and went oh god oh my god And I was on my own in this flat in Barcelona a long way from you know my partner and all my friends.

[00:28:21]Um very sweetly my partner got straight on a plane and flew out and we had this kind of magical night of going oh my god >> and then the day this the day after I started to get all these awful pains and >> um we actually decided to go and get some food because I think he thought we me having something to eat might help.

[00:28:41]We really didn't know what we were doing or what was going on and and yeah, so I I miscarried that pregnancy. Um but it was one it was sort of one of these sort of mad things that happened in your life. This lovely woman from this pharmacy could see I was in a lot of pain and she came out and she said, "Are you okay?" And this was all in Spanish and my Spanish is pretty, you know, not bad, but it's not, you know, it's not kind of medical grade. Um and she took me to her friend who was um a gynecologist and worked in a local hospital and they helped me and you know checked what was going on and got me to a point where I could go back home again and just just kindness of strangers.

[00:29:21]>> Yeah. She drove me all the way in her car and it was, you know, it was a pretty horrible experience to go through, but it was also like really beautiful that another woman would just step in and she said, "I've had this twice, you know, I know what's going on.

[00:29:35]Come with me." Um, so yeah, but it was that excitement of feeling, "Oh my goodness," that made me go, "Oh yeah, now's the time." And >> also had you not done that test that day >> or it had been a couple of like >> you who knows when that feeling would have flooded in like is there something in the fact that everything turned out in the way that it did? I mean my first pregnancy ended in a loss as well and I think there's it then has ramifications of how you feel in subies and stuff.

[00:30:08]But that that feeling of >> magic that kind of worked through its way through that >> Yeah.

[00:30:14]>> that that that little period.

[00:30:16]>> Yeah.

[00:30:16]>> Um >> Yeah. Cuz you just wouldn't have known.

[00:30:19]>> No, I wouldn't have known. And I think I probably had had one before and not known as well. Yeah. I think >> Yeah. And because of that, I don't know.

[00:30:27]I when I was pregnant with Alfie, I you know, I did tell people because I I thought I'm not going to like I was very nervous that it would happen again. And um and 12 weeks is a really long time to like deal with that on your own. And I thought, no, if this happens again, I need people to know. I I need people to be there at the end of the phone.

[00:30:48]>> And so I told quite a lot of people like, I'm pregnant, you know, again, let's hope it goes right. And >> I decided to not keep it a secret. And I don't know, for me personally, I think that's kind of I don't know, a male thing that's sort of been slightly inflicted upon us of like, oh well, >> don't tell us of your woes.

[00:31:06]>> Yeah. Don't tell us if you w and we don't we don't want to hear about we only want to hear about it once it's all nice and safe and yes exactly and I think that's exactly when you need your friends it's exactly when you need other women to be like are you okay and trying to hide it at work and trying to hide it from people I >> I I understand not telling like the general public but those people who are going to be there for you like >> absolutely >> and then I had to have progesterone which because I'd had these two very early miscarriages they said um that progesterone phone would be a good idea.

[00:31:37]So, I had to have that which for me sends me completely dali.

[00:31:41]>> Did you know that before or >> No, no, I found that out.

[00:31:45]>> The hard way.

[00:31:47]The hard way. Um I think I think it does for quite a lot of women. But of course, everyone's so different, aren't they?

[00:31:53]That's why we're still struggling with hormones in the way we are because we're all so sensitive to amounts and fluctuations in so in such different ways. And of course, we haven't put the research and money into really investigating that stuff.

[00:32:08]>> Yes, it doesn't.

[00:32:09]>> I wonder why.

[00:32:10]>> I wonder why. Exactly. Um, so it's all still kind of an unknown. So, yeah, I had 12 weeks of um progesterone peseries, which was not very fun and made me feel pretty flat and and low, but >> I sort of spent three months on the sofa watching Sarah Beanie's House in the Country and eating crumpets and I got through it. Um, but yeah, I was Aside from that, it was it was a fairly straightforward pregnancy, so I was very lucky. Yeah.

[00:32:38]>> Did you work throughout it?

[00:32:39]>> I didn't. No. Nobody wanted to employ me. I know. I'd hoped the voiceovers would be flooding in and I'd be doing pedigree chum and, you know, keeping myself busy, but I really wasn't. It was nothing. So, of course, that's a bit scary because you're not earning any money.

[00:32:55]>> Well, then, you know, what's what's to come the other side of it? Well, I don't really want to work then.

[00:33:00]>> Exactly. So you hope that little bits and bobs will come in during those nine months and then so yeah really I had three years off off work cuz that you know that year once I'd finished that job in Spain and came back I I didn't do anything.

[00:33:13]>> Were you panicking throughout that? Cuz I always feel like I started panicking towards the end mid to the end of a job kind of going well I'm never that's it.

[00:33:20]I'm never going to work again.

[00:33:21]>> That's it for me now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:22]Goodbye.

[00:33:23]>> Fun. See you later.

[00:33:25]>> Goodbye and good luck. I'm retiring.

[00:33:28]Yeah, I know. The the the fear is always there and it I don't think that ever goes away. Even actresses that I speak to who had been doing it for 50, 60 years are still still have that kind of panic.

[00:33:42]>> But I suppose the flip side of that is that sometimes you'll get a phone call and your whole life will change within a day. And and I do love that variety. And I suppose that's maybe one of the things about parenthood that I I find more challenging is the sort of monotony and repetitiveness of it. And I'm so used to a life of like I'm going here today and oh my god I'm right I'm going to Manchester next week to do this thing and I'm going to meet so and so and I really like that variety. Um and you know obviously there's variety in in what your child throws at you on a daily basis or what the challenges are but you know the kind of routine of it is is um is quite different.

[00:34:19]>> Yeah. Mhm.

[00:34:20]>> And the different people that you see and kind of >> Exactly. and the energy that you get from that. Yeah.

[00:34:27]>> So, pregnancy wise, all fine apart from the having to take the >> progesterone at the beginning. Yeah. I mean, I was absolutely enormous. I was so massive and I had such a big baby.

[00:34:38]>> Did you?

[00:34:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was like, well, he was n pounds, which I'm quite a sort of slight um person. So, yeah. I I had a massive massive baby.

[00:34:47]>> How did you feel heading towards the birth? Well, my plan being a control freak was to have a C-section and just be like, "Right, then I can plan it. I know what time it will be. It will be on this day. I I'll have my bag packed and off we all go." Um, but then the sort of the hormones started to flood in towards the end and I decided to have a water birth in the kitchen.

[00:35:09]>> So different.

[00:35:10]>> So different. Yeah. So different. I mean, I I'm not quite sure when that change happened, but I do think it was like a sort of I don't know, a sort of womanly hormonal thing where >> Well, we said about reading lots of books. Had you started reading loads of books and gone, well, I can do this.

[00:35:25]>> Yeah, I think a bit of that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it was a bit of that. And then there was a bit of me that did sort of start to chill out a bit before uh in the last few weeks.

[00:35:35]>> Um maybe because I knew then that it was kind of probably going to be okay and you know, all of that. But yeah, I read all the hypnoirthing books and I decided right, I'm going to have a home birth.

[00:35:45]And I I am someone that's quite sort of like responsive to my environment. So, it made sense that like being at home might be nice and I love my candles.

[00:35:53]Lighting is very important to me. So, strip lighting doesn't sit sit well with me.

[00:35:58]>> It does nothing for anyone >> at any time. No, certainly not when I'm naked with my legs in the air. Um uh so I decided let's let's do this at home.

[00:36:07]And um my partner dutifully went and got the blow up, you know, found a blowup birth pool and um and uh I got in touch with the home birth team and they came around and I was really lucky to be under the care of the home birth team at Kings. They're quite a sort of progressive unit and um they visit a lot beforehand and you get a you get an individual midwife so you see that same person. So I had a really kind of I was very very fortunate in that and they sort of they slightly had me on watch because they'd known about my kind of mood fluctuations with PMT and things and so >> I was slightly geared up for having you know some sort of real drop when the baby was born and I think that's why they were all so >> happy to be involved.

[00:36:53]>> Um >> was it surreal to see the pool up once it was there? We like ah this is definitely happening. Yeah, we sort of blacked out all the windows and it it was it was a very oddlooking kitchen.

[00:37:04]I'll be honest. The K it had bin bags all over the all the windows and plastic sheeting everywhere and a um and a birth pool and yeah, that was there's a picture of us both in there kind of thumbs thumbs up the night before it happened. Um and yeah, he was he was a bit he was a bit late, so we had sort of an extra weekend to plan and sort of get our heads in gear. And it was quite funny cuz we were sort of doing the last bits of painting and sweeping sweeping the path and mowing the lawn.

[00:37:32]>> Really really important.

[00:37:33]>> Really important.

[00:37:34]>> But it's just you nesting. That's it.

[00:37:35]>> Yeah. Obsessive nesting. Um but it was sort of like the mayor was coming and you know we were all doing all these final prep.

[00:37:41]>> He's going to judge us. He's going to judge us. This isn't done.

[00:37:45]>> Babies hate a messy hallway, you know.

[00:37:48]Uh so yeah. And but then sort of at 8:00 on Monday morning after that weekend of industriousness, I feel like something in me went, "Okay, I'm ready." 8:00, bang on the dot, my waters broke. I was like, "I like this guy. I like this guy.

[00:38:04]>> He's punctual.

[00:38:05]>> I like that."

[00:38:06]>> Yeah.

[00:38:07]>> And then did things move quite quickly from there?

[00:38:09]>> Um, well, I'd thought that your waters breaking was like in the films and it just went >> gush done. Okay. The ambulance arrives.

[00:38:17]You know, >> I heard gush and actually the baby just swims out with it.

[00:38:20]>> Yeah. You know, >> me too. That's very much the sort of vibe I had. How how little we knew, right? And so then I waddled down to a cafe, not realizing that my waters would probably break again, which they did on a seat in a cafe. Have you got any blue roll at all?

[00:38:37]Was that So, it was a It was a day.

[00:38:38]>> Was your partner still with you though, or you just heavily pregnant in labor trying to clear up?

[00:38:42]>> No. Thankfully, he was there. Uh he was there for the whole thing. We were both sort of looking at each other like this going, "What happens now?"

[00:38:51]So, we had a day of that and then about 6:00 p.m. things started to kind of heat up and um and get going. And we' done this brilliant like birthing course actually which was all about what positions to get into and that and with this brilliant woman. Um, so we kind of had a bit of a sort of framework of how we were going to labor at home and all the different kind of ways that my partner could hold me and you know, so we did that from 6:00 p.m. all through the night till about 3:00 a.m.

[00:39:17]>> Right.

[00:39:18]>> When the birth pool got filled up and the midwife arrived and it all looked like it was going.

[00:39:22]>> Had you done a test to see how long it took to fill up the pool? Um, no we hadn't.

[00:39:31]But luckily we had quite a long time because if you're in a hurry then yeah pro yeah you probably don't want don't want to be doing that worrying about that or getting at the right temperature but getting into a birth pool when you've been in labor for you know like it's pretty glorious like >> um so yeah so then I carried on laboring but actually the cool the coolest thing about being in labor at home is that I sort of like sounds a bit nuts but I sort of like danced my way through it and sang my way through it And I think my acting training really kind of came into its own. Like I really sort of really like used my body and I felt very free and very like yeah sort of at one with what was happening.

[00:40:13]>> Did you feel like you could give almost give yourself over to the experience?

[00:40:16]>> Yeah, I did. And I and I really vocalized it. I kind of sang through my contractions and like in toned them. And I know I sound like a a bonkers bonkers hippie, but um it that really helped me and I have a lovely memory of sort of dancing in the kitchen and then happy birthday coming on the Stevie Wonder song, dancing to that, eating a Roundtree's fruit lolly ice cream. Um and being like, okay, this is going well so far. Uh and then of course it all kind of got a bit more complicated and um yeah he got stuck and I yeah he was so big he was trying to come out at right angles and >> so um the midwives kind of said look let's um let's get you into hospital.

[00:41:00]>> So >> were you managed to deal with that pretty swiftly?

[00:41:04]>> Yeah, pretty swiftly. We lived like 5 minutes from Kings, thank goodness. So, um, an ambulance came and all the neighbors came out because they'd obviously been hearing me in labor for the whole night. Sorry neighbors. We were living in a flat at the time and I had to sort of go and break it to them.

[00:41:20]We've decided to have a home birth.

[00:41:23]Um, here's some earplugs. Uh, so they'd sort of, I think, been quite aware of what was going on all through the night.

[00:41:30]Uh, and then the ambulance arrived and um, and off I went. Sort of blue lights, I think.

[00:41:35]>> And mentally, were you okay? Were you just kind of a bit like look this is just part of this the plan has changed and we can go with it >> at that point I was yeah I mean for me that the sort of oxytocin had this like wild effect where um it I just felt so chilled out throughout the whole thing to the point where like at one point my my boyfriend said to me you know what are you thinking do you want to carry on at home or do you want to go into hospital and this is while things were still going quite well and I was like yeah do you know I don't really mind like whatever he was like what? You're the person that cares how the towels are folded. Who is this? Who is this free and easy like happy golucky woman? Um but yeah, the power of hormones, right?

[00:42:17]I guess. Um >> so yeah, I at that point I was still okay. I still thought I was going to have a you know a natural birth and that it would be quite soon because I was like 8 cm and it was all kind of you know moving along. But um and then I got into the hospital and and had an epidural cuz I was in quite a lot of pain by that point.

[00:42:36]>> Um and that was a real relief.

[00:42:39]>> Really?

[00:42:39]>> Yeah. Oh, such a relief. Yeah. And I sort of had a bit of a sleep.

[00:42:43]>> Um and then it was then a few hours later that the uh doctor came in and checked me and was said, "You're not 8 cm dilated. You're 4 cm dilated."

[00:42:54]So she said that because the baby had been sort of smashing his head against my cervix that it had swollen just swollen up.

[00:43:02]>> Um so of course that point she was like emergency C-section now.

[00:43:08]>> Yeah. So that's what ended up happening.

[00:43:10]I >> guess also being a bigger baby which brought it's like whatever it takes to get them out safely.

[00:43:15]>> Exactly. Yeah. And it did it did take me a minute. I was like oh just give me a second. Can I just have like five minutes to just breathe through that change and have a little cry, had a little howl and yeah, I did. And >> is that be do you reckon that's because of all the effort and everything that that you'd taken to get to that point or do you reckon it was because you weren't having the birth that you had had envvisaged?

[00:43:36]>> Yeah, probably probably both of that. I suppose I suppose also maybe I felt a bit like oh well that was what I was going to do in the first place and I've been through all of this and like you know 36 hours of labor and oh back to back to the original plan >> and uh yeah it felt I suppose maybe it felt like sort of yeah I felt disappointed I felt sad but I feel really grateful actually that I had the experience of going through labor and knowing what that feels like and proving to myself that I'm so much stronger longer than I had ever known.

[00:44:10]>> And it being such a positive experience at that time at home and stuff. That's >> Yeah. It was I was like, "Wow, I'm badass. I I'm a I'm a warrior woman."

[00:44:21]And I that's not really something I'd really thought of of myself.

[00:44:24]>> Yeah. But I think for me that's kind of parenting encapsulated really is that it stretches you and finds the bits of you that you didn't know were there and pushes you to the absolute extremes of what you're capable of and what you know what you can mine within yourself.

[00:44:42]>> Yeah.

[00:44:42]>> Yeah.

[00:44:43]>> How did it feel heading to theater? Um yeah I mean it was yeah quite I think at that point we were just like right let's get this let's get this done and then they gave me all the you know anesthetic had a lovely team a wonderful team of doctors at Kings who were kind of about to do the operation and then they had they were literally about to do the incision and then a emergency came in a a bigger emergency came in so the entire operating staff left >> oh wa >> and left me on the slab lab for 4 hours.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah. And of course, I couldn't walk or anything, so I couldn't go anywhere cuz I've had all my um Yeah. So, they went off and did this other operation and then came back.

[00:45:25]>> Um and eventually did mine. And but unfortunately, what it meant was that Alfie had had so much anesthetic that when he was born, he was sort of like like that for about the first month, just so sleepy.

[00:45:40]>> Really?

[00:45:40]>> Yeah. So, it was that side of it was a bit of a shame because it meant that breastfeeding didn't get off to a great start and because he was just so sleepy.

[00:45:49]>> Um, >> was he sleepy when he came out? Did he cry straight away or was the >> He did thankfully. Yeah, he did. He came out kind of crying like this >> with his bottom bottom lip out going, "What the hell's been going on? Where have you been? I'm trying to get out for days.

[00:46:04]That and that that and he had a lovely covering of um sort of uh dark black fur on his um shoulders and me and my partner were both like >> he didn't know >> just one very hairy.

[00:46:18]>> No, both. Both. Well, it was symmetrical at least, but I didn't know that like babies quite often have a like little downy kind of covering. I was like, >> it's a little bear. It's a little bear.

[00:46:30]Hm. Okay. So, yeah, it was Yeah, >> it's so funny as well because people always say how when you first have a baby, the baby that you birth is not the baby that you expect. Not for the first 24 hours. Like, they are not going to look like how you expect them to look at, but a little, you know, >> with fairy shoulders.

[00:46:48]>> Well, he's lovely, isn't he? Yes, he is lovely, isn't he?

[00:46:53]>> Oh, yeah. We laugh about that. The fur the fur fell out and uh >> quite swiftly.

[00:46:58]>> Quite swiftly. Yeah.

[00:47:01]Yeah. Yeah. So, no, it was it it wasn't straightforward, but I mean goodness, I don't know how many people have a straightforward birth.

[00:47:08]>> Yeah.

[00:47:08]>> With breastfeeding, >> was that something you were just like that is absolutely what I'm going to do?

[00:47:14]>> Yeah. I was really looking forward to it and and then it sort of looked like it was going okay, but then he wasn't putting the weight on and >> and you know, understandably, they're quite sort of panicky about that, aren't they? I think if if I have another I might be, you know, a bit more confident to sort of take that in my own time and maybe not worry quite so much about the statistics of things. Yeah.

[00:47:36]>> Um but at the time, you know, I felt like I didn't know anything. And so I was just sort of following instruction.

[00:47:41]>> Such a rabbit in headlights. I think with every little thing that you that you encounter, you're just waiting for that person that knows cuz how can you possibly learn everything and have everything put into place and into practice having never done it before?

[00:47:55]>> Exactly. And every every route is so different. You know, if I hadn't ended up having the C-section, >> you know, breastfeeding might have just gone like a dodle or it might not.

[00:48:03]There's so many different you can't prepare for it.

[00:48:06]>> Um, so yeah, I was I was really disappointed and I worked really really hard and >> you know, had lots of lactation consultants and went to breastfeeding cafes and, you know, just kept trying and trying and trying and then I was in this horrible cycle of like pumping, feeding, um, you know, what do they call it? And then bottle feeding, >> you can become fixated, right? That's all. And then if it takes an eight, like everything just takes for forever.

[00:48:31]>> Yeah. Exactly. And then you don't really leave the house and or or have a chance to kind of enjoy your baby. And >> not at all. Like with with my eldest, I was literally like feeding took so long.

[00:48:41]And if I wasn't feeding him, I was trying to put him back down for a nap and then oh my gosh, it's back up an hour later. Let's get you back on the boob.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah. You know, >> it just it just >> nothing. It it really I found it it took not took the enjoyment out of motherhood, but it or having a newborn, but it definitely interfered.

[00:49:01]>> Yeah.

[00:49:01]>> It felt like that was the big thing that was the most important.

[00:49:04]>> Yeah. And were you pumping as well?

[00:49:06]>> Uh yes, I did after I think I left it a little while and I think with one of them I pumped too soon.

[00:49:12]>> Oh, really? Can you do that?

[00:49:14]>> Well, I think it just meant Well, it's supply and demand, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:49:17]>> So, I think I pumped too soon and then the agony was just, you know, >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz they're not actually sort of emptying the breast enough.

[00:49:25]>> Oh, and it again, it's like hormones, isn't it? Every woman's body responds in a different way and produces different amounts of milk. And >> so, yeah, it's a whole minefield, isn't it? And and and it did sort of take over a bit, but at sort of seven weeks, I kind of went, let's let's take this off our plates. And so, moved to mostly bottle feeding at that point. Was that a relief?

[00:49:47]>> It was a bit. Yeah, it was it was sort of a sadness. Like I felt like I'd failed a bit, but it was a relief because it just meant we could concentrate on our baby and >> and also, you know, sharing night feeds and stuff like that is no bad thing.

[00:50:00]>> Um so I was really lucky my partner had three months off work um paternity um from a quite progressive company that he was working for at the time. Thank you.

[00:50:11]Um and that's how it should be for everyone across the board. I mean, again, like anyone whose partner goes back after days or weeks is it's just so hard. I think I probably still haven't come to terms with the breastfeeding thing. Yeah. I mean, I would go out and meet my sort of NT gang and they'd all be sitting there feeding and I would feel like I'd feel so sad and come home feeling worse than when I'd gone out.

[00:50:37]and and so I sort of stopped spending time with, you know, with those groups of people because I I felt like I it sort of just highlighted what I wasn't able to do. And and I still I still feel that way. I still feel emotional.

[00:50:50]>> Isn't it crazy that you still feel that way even though your son is now three, the even if things had gone right, likelihood is you wouldn't still be feeding.

[00:50:57]>> No, exactly. Probably.

[00:50:59]>> Um but it's still something that you that you carry.

[00:51:02]>> Yeah. I think I might need to do a bit of work on that. Unpick on bit of EMDR or some therapy on that because it it does still make me feel very emotional watching people breastfeed, you know, because some of the issues in my childhood meant have meant that I've struggled to >> maybe have the relationships that I wanted to have in my adult life have been so hypervigilant to make sure that >> Alfie's relationship with his primary caregivers goes right.

[00:51:27]>> Yeah. and and understanding how it can impact if it doesn't go quite right >> and the importance of it for like the ripple effect throughout the rest of your life. So the sort of wanting to create a secure attachment with him and I guess I thought breastfeeding was a big part of that. You know ultimately it's it's a lovely thing but it's not it's not going to like differentiate between whether you have that bond and attachment or not. But >> yeah, I'm sort of I I learned about attachment the theory in my 30s and um and it was like the biggest wakeup call.

[00:52:01]I don't know if you Yeah. It's like >> um I mean I'm not a psychologist but for for anyone who doesn't know like secure attachment is when you have a kind of a really healthy bond with your primary caregiver and it means that you can therefore form really healthy attachments with other people in the future whether it be friends or romantic partners. And um it means it helps you feel good about setting boundaries. It helps you feel good about yourself. It helps you kind of it just makes life kind of smoother. Mhm.

[00:52:31]>> So knowing that I had the responsibility that I could make that possible for someone else having not had it myself >> um felt like the be all and end all. Did it also put pressure on you in terms of creating the bond between you from the very start? Like because we hear so much about this magical bond and and I think uh it's another expectation of what's what's going to happen and then for so many people when the baby's out and you're like, "Oh yeah, you know, >> oh, he's got hairy shoulders.

[00:53:03]>> I don't know where the bond is going."

[00:53:06]>> But you know what I mean? Like there's already that that pressure for you to to have that bond instantly.

[00:53:11]>> Yeah. And that isn't the case for lots of people. It really varies, doesn't it, on so many factors. And I think for me, I felt very excited, but I I didn't have that kind of >> flood of, oh my god, you're the best thing I've ever seen. And and that, you know, that sort of developed over the following days and I was lucky that it it came um you know, quite soon. But but for people for whom it doesn't um for various reasons, I think there's another bit where you can just feel like you're failing and that you're not a good mom.

[00:53:41]And >> you were talking earlier about uh mental health and kind of keeping an eye on that >> post birth.

[00:53:48]>> How how was that?

[00:53:50]>> It was I've I was probably the happiest and most relaxed I've ever been in my life.

[00:53:55]>> Really?

[00:53:56]>> I mean, it just shows you, doesn't it?

[00:53:58]You think you know yourself even you don't even know yourself in terms of how things might affect you hormonally.

[00:54:04]>> I was so relaxed. I think the oxytocin is is obviously a really good good one for me.

[00:54:10]>> Who knew? Who knew?

[00:54:11]>> Who knew the love hormone could have such a positive impact.

[00:54:15]>> I started ordering sprays off the internet. I was like, I bloody love this stuff. Get it in me. Um it was I was so relaxed and happy. I think those three months were probably Yeah. Probably the best three months of my life. Yeah, >> just the smallalness of being at home and everyone else kind of [ __ ] off.

[00:54:33]>> Were you good at that? Were you good at like pulling up the draw bridge and kind of going, "No, this is what I need."

[00:54:37]>> Yeah, I was really Yeah, I felt I felt really like vindicated in doing that.

[00:54:42]And and I guess that's one of the times when not having a big family is quite useful. Like if you know, I didn't feel the obligation from hundreds of aunts and cousins that they wanted to visit.

[00:54:52]and we just had this sort of magical three months at home just as the three of us just like giving him his bath in the garden and and occasional visits from my mom and people. But yeah, kind of kept it really small and yeah, I have so many happy memories of that time.

[00:55:08]Yeah, >> I love that.

[00:55:09]>> Yeah. And could have but in my head of course the worrying part of my head thought it was going to be the complete opposite. Mhm.

[00:55:16]>> Um I I think I I found it harder when obviously when my partner went back to work and uh things like teething came in and you know all of those >> Well, there's always something, isn't it? There's always something lurking around the corner.

[00:55:27]>> Exactly. Yeah. But um but that was Yeah.

[00:55:30]really really special time.

[00:55:31]>> If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? It would be to the government and it would be to ask them to offer the circle of security course to every parent who wants to do it for free because I think yeah I think the world would be a really different place if everyone understood the impact that those first few years can have and if those and if you don't know you don't know you know and if if you don't understand even what that is or the impact of it like you don't know but I I think I honestly think our world would be a completely different place if people understood. I think children should be taught taught about it at school. I think attachment theory should be on the syllabus. Um so that we understand the kind of partners we should be looking for and the kind of what healthy relationship looks like and how to offer that emotional support and reassurance and kind of presence to your child so that they feel safe in the world. Because if you feel safe in the world, the rest all falls into place.

[00:56:37]>> Do you feel like motherhood has been healing?

[00:56:40]>> Um >> I mean it rips you apart.

[00:56:43]>> It rips you apart. But yeah, the joy the joy is just the joy and the Yeah, the love is like beyond anything that I had ever experienced before. And yeah, it's very healing. You know, you get another chance. It's a It's a fresh start, isn't it? a fresh start with a blank canvas and like the privilege of being part of that is yeah huge.

[00:57:08]>> What do you feel like that course gave you?

[00:57:11]>> Um it well it validated my own feelings of like ah okay that's why I feel that way.

[00:57:20]Um and this is of no criticism of my mom at all. She did her absolute best and with the information she had at the time >> and in a different generation.

[00:57:29]>> Exactly. different generation and yeah so there's no criticism there but um yeah it gave me a really clear sense of h okay when I feel a certain way but my child needs something for me from me these are the times when it's really important to turn towards them and still offer them that even when it feels uncomfortable and the impact of of how that can >> kind of set up a really good template and blueprint in their computer system as it that will yeah kind of yeah refract for the rest of their lives.

[00:58:05]>> Yeah.

[00:58:07]>> We end the podcast with you completing three sentences.

[00:58:10]>> Yes.

[00:58:10]>> The first one >> Yes.

[00:58:11]>> is being a mom means >> stretching yourself in all directions.

[00:58:18]your capacity for joy, your capacity for frustration, your capacity for uh playfulness, your capacity for boredom, you know, your capacity for patience. It's like it's like you're doing this with your personality and your body and everything stretching.

[00:58:36]>> Yeah. Since having a child, I >> um I'm much more selective about who I spend my time with because I have so little. Um, so I yeah, the time I have that's for me is really slim. So if if you're someone that I spend time with, I must really love you.

[00:58:55]>> I love that. And finally, I'm happy when >> I'm happy when I'm out and about with Alfie on a train or a bus and we're talking about what we're seeing and I'm seeing his curiosity and seeing his confidence and seeing him talk to people on the bus and tell them where we're going and what he had for breakfast and just feeling like bursting with pride for him. So funny the things that you find pride in when looking at your kids.

[00:59:26]It's so rogue.

[00:59:27]>> Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. It's not those Instagram moments actually. It's like him telling everyone on the train that we're going to see the dinosaurs at the National History Museum and what he's watched. He's just he's he he's kind of very confident. He likes talking to people, but he's also quite into girls.

[00:59:46]And so he goes up he went up to this girl the other day and went, "Hey girl.

[00:59:51]um like watching Andy's Dino Adventures.

[00:59:55]I was like, "This kid, what a chat up live." I'm like, I love it. Those sort of moments where you see them operating in the world on their own or starting to foray out into the world and >> um and seeing how they interact with people is is just a pure joy.

[01:00:11]>> Yeah. Uh rehearsals start Monday.

[01:00:14]>> Yes, rehearsal.

[01:00:15]>> When does the run start? And I say it different to you. I say I say de rack.

[01:00:21]>> It's one of those things, >> but you say how you actually say it and then say it in your French accent because it's too good.

[01:00:27]>> Well, I say sir de berserk, but you're in it. But whether it's going to be right, >> well, I don't know. I don't know if it's right, but I can also say everyone would think I'm a total wanker, so I I won't say that.

[01:00:39]>> When does the run start?

[01:00:41]>> Start in June. So, we've got uh 3 weeks rehearsal and then we come into the West End to the Null Coward uh on the 13th of June, I think it is. And it's Yeah, it's a pretty um pretty extraordinary play to be part of.

[01:00:53]>> Well, you you were saying before that it's the best.

[01:00:56]>> I think it might be the best thing I've ever been in. Yeah, it's it's again a bit like motherhood. It's a play that just like takes you to all bits of your soul.

[01:01:06]>> Yeah.

[01:01:06]>> It makes you laugh until you cry and breaks your heart. I' I've never been in a play where I've heard the entire audience sobbing at the end and people, >> you know, grown men in their 80s to sort of, you know, women in their 20ies like and and everything in between. It seems to touch a really profound bit of us as humans and that sort of subject of us not quite feeling enough >> and the beauty of sharing that with someone and what that feels like.

[01:01:36]>> Yeah.

[01:01:36]>> Which is what we've done today. Oh, my love. Thank you so much.

[01:01:40]>> Thank you.

[01:01:41]>> I've loved this.

[01:01:42]>> Me, too. It feels like no time has passed.

[01:01:45]>> Just 18 years.

[01:01:46]>> Yeah, just 18 years. But here we are. A few more wrinkles.

[01:01:50]>> In fact, I think the last time we were together, I think we were I think maybe we'd gone to Pizza Express and then gone to see your show.

[01:01:56]>> Yeah, I think we had.

[01:01:57]>> Yeah.

[01:01:57]>> Yeah. Amazing.

[01:01:59]>> More more of that, please.

[01:02:00]>> Yeah, I'd like that, too. I'd like that, too.

[01:02:02]>> Thanks so much for watching. Don't forget to subscribe to this channel. It will help us bring you even more guests.