The Hidden Framework Behind Retail Technology Winners With UBS's Furhaan Khan

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[00:00:07][music] >> The winners become those who have access to the customer and who are executing the transaction and those who have the data. A lot of those companies that you and I saw aren't going to be there in a year's time because either they'll be acquired or business model just won't work or they're a point solution.

[00:00:26]Platforms over tools. So, something that is embedded across the value chain. I think that's a good [clears throat] place to start. The internet does two things. It's people buying things and people trying to get your attention.

[00:00:38]There are only two [music] or three companies that have real intent data.

[00:00:41]Everybody else has been guessing.

[00:00:44]So, it's the the AI distribution mediation of the shopping journey and [music] the personalization that will bring is it's going to fundamentally change the way we [music] interact with the internet as a whole.

[00:00:57]>> This Investor Perspectives on Retail and the Consumer Goods podcast is brought to you by the Omnitalk Retail Podcast Network. Hello everyone. I am Chris Walton, your host for today's interview.

[00:01:06]An interview in which you will hear from a gentleman I make a point to touch base with every time we find ourselves together in Vegas for Shoptalk in March.

[00:01:16]He and I always seek each other out and this time, this past March, he shared with me a framework for how he thinks about sizing up the technology investment landscape. And upon speaking with him, I said I said you have just you have just got to be on my podcast.

[00:01:31]Some of you no doubt know of whom I am speaking already, but I am of course talking about Farhan Khan, the managing director and head of internet and digital commerce investment banking at UBS. Farhan, welcome to Omnitalk.

[00:01:44]>> Chris, great to be here and nice to see you again outside of the heat of Vegas.

[00:01:49]>> Yeah, yeah. What what what how how how many years has it been that we've been connecting out at that show?

[00:01:54]>> We always make sure we find each other and that show just gets bigger and bigger and more interesting and more exciting and more confusing actually.

[00:02:04]>> Yeah, yeah, WHAT WHAT BRINGS WHAT BRINGS YOU OUT THERE? So yeah, TALK ABOUT LIKE TALK about what you oversee in your job, in your role and what what what why that brings you out to Shoptalk every year or any retail conference for that matter?

[00:02:17]>> Yeah, absolutely. So look, I I sit in our investment banking group within our technology business. Um, I'm usually based out of New York, but I'm traveling all over the place as you can imagine.

[00:02:27]And what we do is we really spend time around companies that are looking for M&A advice, that are looking for IPOs, that are looking for leverage finance, that are looking for any sort of strategic transaction that might uh, that might occur in the life cycle of a business.

[00:02:44]And within that, I specialize in internet more broadly, but but also digital commerce as a specific sub sector of of the internet.

[00:02:54]And what that means is anything that touches from a tech perspective the buyer's life cycle in and around buying something on the internet. The way we I mean, if you drill down the internet very, very quickly, it's folks buying stuff and folks wanting to get in front of those people buying stuff.

[00:03:15]>> Right, right, simple.

[00:03:17]>> It really is that. And so the way I think about the value chain is if you start from the top of the funnel, you have how do you drive demand, how do you convert demand, how do you fulfill that demand, and then how do you ultimately keep the customer and bring it bring them back to to to to buying something again. So, in in essence, very, very straightforward.

[00:03:41]Technically and practically incredibly complicated, right? So, if you think about all of the companies that we see over at Shoptalk, there's just so many.

[00:03:51]Everybody's trying to do some version of what I just described. But there are so many flavors of effectively the same thing when you drill it down to those few few few sort of pillars that I just laid out. And I do there is meet meet these companies, stay current on what's going on, and make sure that we're there to help them as they go through that journey. So typically UBS will get involved, as I said, when there's a when the when there's a transaction of some sort. But actually, we love to support companies from an early stage all the way through to whatever it may be. So we spend time with the largest in the space, as you can imagine, but also some of the startups as well as they're looking at raising capital, etc., and whatever it takes to to get them to to fulfill their ambition. And so, that's what I do.

[00:04:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well well said. Well said.

[00:04:43]You know, it's funny, producer and I were having a conversation very similar to what you just described yesterday in terms of just talking about general that just how you think about general business and the processes that need to happen for any business to succeed, which I think is applicable there, too.

[00:04:55]And I I teased at the outset that we're going to go into your framework for how you how you think about everything, how you decide like who's going to win, essentially. But I want to warm our way into that first. So, you know, and I do want to I do want to I want to legitimately go back to March because you and I were sitting on the couch in the speakers lounge. There's hundreds of technology vendors around us. And I wanted to I wanted you to share with your audience. What were your impressions at that time? What were your What were the thoughts going through your mind as you looked out on all that that massive sea of technology vendors that inhabited the exhibit hall floor?

[00:05:32]>> Well, what I can tell you is everybody's now an AI company.

[00:05:35]>> Yes. So that's without a doubt.

[00:05:38]>> But I think that's I think I think that's important. That that's a paradigm shift in the way everything is everything is going. So as you can imagine, as a as a tech banker, absolutely everything that we now talk about in the in the in the in the conversations we're having is around is around AI.

[00:05:53]So, it was it was good to see that kind of everybody was embracing that.

[00:05:58]But, I think the the biggest thing for me was there's a sense of paralysis as I looked out on that going, "If I'm an investor or if I'm trying to figure out what's differentiated and what's not, it's really hard to figure out who's differentiated and who's not. And I think that's where the sector expertise, that's where our knowledge, that's where our experience, all those things really come to bear because without putting too fine a point on it, a lot of those companies that you and I saw aren't going to be there >> [clears throat] >> in a year's time or 2 years time or 3 years time because either they'll be acquired or the business model just won't work or you know, they're a point solution and that point solution isn't going to be needed in an AI. Well, something is going to happen which means that that business may or may not exist in a year or two, three, four years time. So, try to try to figure out where the value really lies is hard. And the way I think about it is AI is really compressing the discovery layer and what's easy and what's what's easy easy easy to easy to disintermediate. So, the value really lies somewhere downstream, I think, right? It lies somewhere where there's execution, where there's a transaction, where there's trust, and that's where some of that framework you and I discussed really comes into comes comes into view because if you believe that discovery gets easier and everybody's going to go and use some form of chatbot or LLM to drive their decisioning process, which may or may not be true by the way, but that's certainly prevailing view right now.

[00:07:48]>> The winners become those who have access to the customer or who have who are executing the transaction and those who have the data, right? So so when you think about examples of who that looks like, obviously on the retail side you've got the large retailers as Amazon, Walmart, Target, etc. You know, huge distribution sometimes physical stores in the case of a Walmart and Target, etc. You've got Costco, right? Brand and loyalty doing a lot of the work there as well. Best Buy leaning into services. They've got a lot to say in the broader ecosystem.

[00:08:24]Um but then you've got some of the newer the newer ways of of of distribution as well. So you think about Roku. Roku owns the screen. So they have they have direct access to your living room. What does that look like? How do they position themselves? Um you've got you know, up and comers like Rokt who are monetizing the checkout moment. Uh you've got names like Narvar.

[00:08:47]So there's just so much complexity in this whole ecosystem. And when you and I would were sitting there looking at out of this sea going, you know, it's our job to figure out what's hot and what's not.

[00:09:01]It's actually quite complicated.

[00:09:02]>> Yeah, yeah. So so okay. So I know I want to So I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second because the devil's advocate in me listening to you listening to you listen to what you just said and even thinking back it's like you know what? You could probably say the same thing about the exhibit hall floor every year, right? Like there's going to be a certain amount of these companies that aren't going to exist the next year. But you're saying, which I agree with, but I just want to make sure we understand why, but you're saying that the AI phenomenon has probably exacerbated that or will push that a step further. Is that right?

[00:09:35]>> I think that's right. And let me take a step back because I I don't think it's just in commerce or or the internet. I think it's across society, right? If we want to get philosophical about it for a minute.

[00:09:46]>> Yeah.

[00:09:46]>> Right? The way we operate, the way we interact with the world is fundamentally going to change given the way AI is affecting our lives.

[00:09:56]And to me that's exciting. It's somewhat somewhat scary because it's >> Terrifying, sure. I could have said it.

[00:10:05]I'll say it if you don't want to say it.

[00:10:06]Yeah.

[00:10:06]>> It's going to It's going to have so many societal impacts.

[00:10:10]But what I like about it is it keeps us on our toes, right?

[00:10:15]Technology always keeps us on our toes and that's what's very exciting about the the the job that I do.

[00:10:22]Um but what it means is I I sort of drilled it down a second ago to say the internet does two things. It's It's It's people buying things and people trying to get your attention. And that changes because we have seen for a very long time the that Google has effectively owned that channel. So, in other words, people go and Google something. And our view has always been there are only two or three companies that have real intent data. So, intent data being that data that says I know what you want to buy.

[00:10:59]So, you know, you go to Google and you type in, you know, you want to buy You want to buy treadmill, right? So, you go to You go to Google and you type in best treadmill or, you know, what treadmill should I buy or something something like that. Um Amazon obviously has the same type of data because you know, you go into You go into Amazon and type the same thing. And so, Amazon knows exactly what you're after.

[00:11:23]E- Everybody else has been guessing.

[00:11:27]Right? Because, you know, Facebook guesses what you want as opposed to knows what you want. Um Pinterest arguably has real intent data because >> Right.

[00:11:37]>> you're pinning things. Um but the retailers have real data, right? The retailers know what what it is that you're that you're buying. But all internet names, you know, they're they're they're very you know, real intent data is actually is actually hard to come by.

[00:11:50]Enter the LLMs. The LLMs are now saying, "Well, I know everything about you." Um and you're actually asking me very directly, not just what's the best treadmill, it's what's the best treadmill for me, right? Um you know me.

[00:12:03]You know that I'm going to use it twice and then it's going to become a clothes rack.

[00:12:07]>> [laughter] >> Whatever the case may be. I know you've got to see >> [snorts] >> the AI disintermediation of the shopping journey and the personalization that will bring and the innovation that that takes is going to be it is is going to be fundamentally changed it's going to fundamentally change the way we interact with the internet as a whole.

[00:12:34]And that has implications for brands, it has implications for retailers, it has implications for the technology providers, uh and implications for you and I because, you know, [snorts] how much of our data do we really want out there and where's it going and what's it doing?

[00:12:49]>> Right, right. Okay, so so let's get into it then because I mean your job in this in an essence, I mean if I was to kind of wrap it up or simplify it in a lot of ways, which is probably an oversimplification, is to really, you know, help understand or decide who you think is going to win or lose given everything you just said. If your impressions are true and the implications of what you just said come true. So So Fran, how do you how do you sort through it all? What is the framework that you use to help you decide who likely will succeed versus others in this landscape?

[00:13:22]>> As I I laid out a minute ago the journey for you, right? So you you sort of start in the you start in the sort of pre-purchase element of the value chain.

[00:13:30]The pre-purchase element typically dominated by advertising companies, marketing companies. You then have your product data and experience, which is important. Um commerce and digital presence, so you know, the checkout the the checkout process. Um that's the purchase sort of journey. Then there's a post-purchase journey, so actually the thing has to get to your house or whatever it is you're you're you're you're buying. Um you have to be able to have easy returns. You have to trust that it's going to show up at the at the right address at the right time, and the thing is what as you wanted it to be. Uh that's the customer experience aspect of it. And then the loyalty piece, so you know, I'm happy with my purchase and I'm going to come back and purchase something again because having a customer that you have retained is significantly cheaper than a customer that you've had to acquire. So, that's the way I think about the the the the flywheel.

[00:14:26]So, if that's a journey where companies operate from a customer life cycle cycle perspective, that doesn't tell you if it's a good business or not. That just tells you where in the value chain a company operates.

[00:14:38]>> Right.

[00:14:39]>> So, what what you and I discussed was how do you layer on a second lens which says what's going to be disintermediated and what's not going to be disintermediated in an AI world. So, I think there are five things that I look for which I think matter.

[00:14:58]The first is data, real proprietary data. This is something that somebody else doesn't have.

[00:15:07]I own it. It's It's It's something that gets better the more people use my service or the more I I operate. And therefore, this gets better over time, and it's very hard for AI to replicate or they have to partner with me to get it. Right? That That's That's the first piece.

[00:15:25]>> Okay.

[00:15:25]>> And if you think about names like Sindigo, they have real product data.

[00:15:29]You have names like Ibotta and Fetch, they have purchase data. You think about retailers, they've got full funnel data, right? So >> Mhm. Mhm.

[00:15:38]>> the real proprietary data modes that are very hard to disintermediate in the AI world.

[00:15:44]That's one.

[00:15:45]>> Okay.

[00:15:46]>> The second piece, and by the way, you don't have to have all of these.

[00:15:49]Obviously, if you have all of these, you're you're you're you're you're you're fantastic. But you don't have to have all of these. You just have to have some element of these. Um >> Yeah. You You don't want to not have any of them. That's what I'm saying.

[00:15:59]>> don't want to have not have any of them because that's where that's where you have a real real issue.

[00:16:04]The second is network effects. Network effects, we talk about it a lot. It's pretty, uh I think it's pretty obvious what that means. It's you you know, you and I could probably create Facebook in a weekend, but you know, we'd be missing a billion and a half users. Right? So that's that's that's that >> There's just that, right?

[00:16:23]>> There's just that simple thing. So scale dramatically improves a product, right?

[00:16:28]So Amazon, Uber, um you know, Miracle, those sorts of names, where real scale drives the product value, and that's very hard to disintermediate. Like that scale and that turns it into a defensibility.

[00:16:43]>> Mhm.

[00:16:44]>> The one that we didn't talk about so much, and I've been thinking about a lot more, is is distribution, right? So how do you get to it?

[00:16:51]Right? So retailers have distribution.

[00:16:54]Um Roku is an example where there's real distribution in your living room or your bedroom or wherever you have a screen.

[00:17:00]That's a way to get to a consumer that's very hard to disintermediate, Pinterest.

[00:17:05]Um those sorts of names. And increasingly, >> Mhm.

[00:17:09]>> I'm thinking if you don't control the distribution, you're ultimately renting that demand. If you If you control the distribution, you're at the heart of the consumer journey, and that's very hard to disintermediate. That's the point.

[00:17:21]>> So, let me So, yeah, that So, that is new cuz we I mean I actually was going to I was going to joke with you like when we talked you said there were four and now there's five. So, and the fifth this this new element is >> We've gone back and forth on this a lot because I mean, firstly, this isn't perfect as a framework, and all frameworks are all frameworks are some somehow falsified at some point, right? So, you know, there's probably six, seven, eight things that you could that you could argue. But, when trying to just distill it down, this is how we've been thinking about >> So, to the point about distribution cuz I want to ask you it's my first time hearing it, too. So, is distrib- is controlling your distribution now more important than ever, you know, because it's always been a factor, but is it is it is that being exacerbated as well? Because I think of moves like Walmart to control their distribution through the Vizio acquisition as an example of this.

[00:18:11]>> It's more important than ever before because of the way consumers interact with brands and products and and and and retailers. If you believe that everybody is going to go to some sort of chatbot and and that's the way they're going to do it interact with the world, if you have a different way for them to interact with the world, that's a moat.

[00:18:30]And I know you can you can sort of zoom out a little bit and say, well, distribution matters in lots of other ways as well, you know, if Apple cuz I happen to have an iPhone in front of me, if Apple, which has great distribution to me directly, decides to launch a product, that's a very easy thing for them to push on me than some other new entrant who wants to push that same product to me, right? That that's a very clear example of how distribution wins.

[00:18:55]>> Yeah, and and to your point, I think the other thing too I'd call out is distribution can be the physical substrate and or the software, too, right?

[00:19:02]>> Yeah, that's right. If you have access to retailers, if you're a technology provider and you have access to, you know, thousands of retailers and you they already take your product, you releasing something new to them is substantially easier than somebody who wants to enter the market, of course.

[00:19:20]>> Mhm. Yeah, or even a physical store, too, to that point. You know, that that falls in here, too, as well. And also goes into some of the network effect and the scale, too, that we talked about before.

[00:19:30]>> Um all right, so what's what's next?

[00:19:32]>> piece, and I think this is a term that we made up, but, you know, forgive me if I've if I've borrowed it from somewhere.

[00:19:39]It's what we call what we call transactional intensity.

[00:19:43]So, this is the point of the workflow.

[00:19:45]How much of the workflow do you actually control? How much of the transaction do you actually control? So, the point being, if you are providing some form of trust or some sort of payment or some sort of insurance or something that or delivery or something that sits at the heart of the transaction, that's not just pure software, that's very hard to disintermediate in the narrow world. So, you know, you think about car.com, they're fulfilling products and goods. That's a good example. You think about, you know, Narvar, who sits on I know you've had them on your on your show. You think about them as a as a post-purchase machine who is sitting at the heart of the transaction. You press the buy button, they know exactly what's happening at that point. They're making sure that, you know, the the delivery piece is is is properly is properly orchestrated um and that the you know, when you're returning it, it's getting back to the right warehouse, etc., etc. And that's what we call transactional intensity. And the point being, AI [clears throat] can't replace all of that execution layer. And and that's and that's hard. So, you know, Shopify is the obvious example if you wanted to go that far and say, "Well, look, you know, uh merchants still need a stack, and that stack is complex, and they need to either put it all together themselves or they can they can use something like Shopify which would provide them with, you know, a store in a box type of type of uh type of value. So, execution is sort of where the value accrues in our mind.

[00:21:22]>> That's interesting, too, because there's also some linkage here. Like, let's go back to the Narvar example. Like, you know, Narvar is providing that that service for a number of retailers. So, they have the the trust and the loyalty of the first of the groups that they're providing it for and then on top of that, the retailers are leveraging it to give that trust to their consumers. So, where those linkages are especially tight like that, I have to think that's a very strong value proposition.

[00:21:48]>> Right. And then I would argue they have So, if you think about, you know, the different things that we've talked about, they have transactional intensity. They have very strong data modes because they know who's shopping and where and what and how, etc. And they're able to link those things together. Um and then they've got they've got that linkage, as you said.

[00:22:07]So, you know, the trust that and and and and and the delivery of of the whole thing. So, um and they've got distribution, by the way. They've got a ton of retailers on their on their ecosystem.

[00:22:19]>> Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, right.

[00:22:20]>> So, they they're very defensible from an AI perspective and they're not the only ones, right? There are a bunch of other companies who who have that defensibility, but that's a good framework for me when I'm trying to drill down into Well, okay, if I believe this business is going to be durable, why do I believe it? It's because I think it checks one or more of these boxes.

[00:22:40]>> Mhm. Okay. All right, what's the last >> the last one is is is brand and this is less sort of tech related and it's more more more broad.

[00:22:49]Very simple, right? I trust Apple with my with my iPhone and I'll probably buy an iPhone till till the day I die, right? You know, I trust Nike with my sneakers. I trust um you know, whoever it may be. So, it might be a a subset of trust, but you know, Costco's a good example. I trust that Costco has curated things for me in a way that I will like, and therefore trust drives my behavior.

[00:23:17]Um and in a low sort of low low switching cost world, where I can, as a consumer, pick and choose what I want, brand is an easy differentiator as a consumer to say, "Well, I know that this is a good brand. I trust it, and so I'm going to buy it. Is it always the best product? Probably not, right? But but [laughter] is it is it the one I'm going to buy? Yes.

[00:23:41]>> Translate the brand idea into like the solutions provider space. So, again, as you're looking across that landscape, how do you how do you decide if someone checks the box with brand?

[00:23:52]>> We talked about Navar a second ago. We'll talk about the retailers. We'll talk about Shopify. So, if somebody, you know, if as an example, somebody's working with Shopify, that helps me cuz it gives them a halo effect from from from Shopify. If somebody's working with Navar, I trust that they've done a good job of selecting their partners and and working with them. Um you know, from a from a from a trust and loyalty space, um you know, take take Rakuten as an example in the loyalty space. If I know that the retailer is working with Rakuten, it's likely to have been vetted, and I trust that it's not going to, you know, going to let me down at some point whenever I whenever I buy something if it's on if it's on Rakuten.

[00:24:37]So, there's a curation element, there's a trust element to the brand. The the easiest way to understand brand is is what I gave you a minute ago. It's Apple, it's Nike, it's those things.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting though, because I've never I've never thought about like, as a former retail executive, I'd never thought about, until you just said this, that the brand of the solutions provider plays into my decision-making in terms of which solution I want to procure. And I've I'm asking I'm asking myself how much does it really? And so that's you know that and that and that's where I'm like, "Okay, maybe it does. It probably does psychologically, but >> I mean, it does completely. I mean, you know, take There There's a halo effect to trust, which I think you potentially take take for granted. If something is on the Apple App Store, I am infinitely more likely to download it than if I just find something randomly on the internet.

[00:25:31]Because I trust that Apple's done the work to to make sure that it's of good quality and and isn't going to infect my phone with viruses.

[00:25:41]I gave you the example of Costco a minute ago. I trust that if something is in Costco, the brand of Costco is providing a halo effect to the thing that I'm buying.

[00:25:51]The thing I'm buying I may never have heard of before, but the fact that it exists in Costco, okay, I'm going I'm going to buy it. So, there is definitely a halo effect around around brand from from from that perspective. And then in technology, absolutely, right? If some If If And this talks to distribution a little bit that we talked about a few minutes ago, which is if Microsoft releases a product or Apple releases a product or one of the named brands if Shopify releases a product, then I am more likely to use it or buy it because I trust that they've done the work.

[00:26:27]>> Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I mean, I can think of even for my own example, you know, like you mentioned Mirakl, I think you know, about 10 or 15 minutes ago.

[00:26:34]That's a great example. And And full disclosure, I'm an advisor for them for everyone listening, but like, you know, I see it firsthand in terms of the number of retailers that come to me and say like, "Hey, I tried to get my marketplace off the ground. I can't quite do it." Like, Mark you know, Mirakl has that reputation of being able to do that and do it well and do it consistently over time. So, that that plays into exactly what you're saying.

[00:26:55]>> And and bringing in bringing in product and saying, you know, I know that this product is vetted from a marketplace perspective. So, you're going So, you're not going to have issues around.

[00:27:05]>> Yeah, and it also explains why so many solutions providers try to align themselves with the big companies for validation. Like, you know, I'm a I'm you know, Microsoft licensed or Microsoft certified or accredited, right? Yeah, certified, right.

[00:27:17]Um all right, well, okay. So, so before I let you go, this has been great. This has been so much fun. It's it's always fun getting to pick your brain. And now we're getting to do it live in front of microphones, which is awesome instead of doing it on a couch at a conference sweltering in Vegas.

[00:27:31]Um all right, so based on everything you just said, if I am a retail executive again, >> Yeah.

[00:27:37]>> what advice would you have for me as I try to determine where I should place my technology bets going forward?

[00:27:45]>> So, I think if you think about the discussion we've just had, where are you going to place your bet? It platforms over tools, right? So, something that is embedded across the value chain, which is very hard to replace. I think that's a good good place to start, right? So, embedded, irreplaceable.

[00:28:05]Um follow the data.

[00:28:07]Is this real proprietary data? Is this valuable? Does it get better with time?

[00:28:13]Um and can I can I take advantage of that data advantage that I have?

[00:28:18]>> [snorts] >> And where's my data going, right? Am I making sure that my data is not leaking everywhere? And so, yes, it might be proprietary, but actually within within, you know, some short period of time, it's actually not proprietary because it's leaked all over the place.

[00:28:32]And then and then this point about owning the critical moments in the transaction. So, owning the demand, owning the conversion, owning the fulfillment, owning the the retention, owning the returns process, whatever it may be. So, I think, you know, control the journey means controlling the value and to me that is where I would be placing my bets if I were a if I were a retail executive today.

[00:28:58]>> Farhan, to that point, like we also we have a lot of conversation on this show about whether I should build or buy my technology. Would Would you then recommend, if I extrapolate what you just said, would you recommend that I should potentially be building my own at those critical juncture points that you just mentioned?

[00:29:14]>> you know, buy and build is a conversation buy or build, sorry, is a conversation that we have all the time, right? In a in a world where we're thinking about strategic options. Should you acquire? Should you buy? Should you partner? Um what should you what should you do? Um it really is dependent on each situation and that's where, you know, working with, pardon the plug, right, working with someone like us can be hugely valuable because we can help you think through the pros and cons of acquiring, partnering or or just building it yourself. Um there are instances where building it yourself makes a ton of sense. There are instances where you don't need buy, you can partner. Um and of course there are instances where buying makes the most sense. And so, you know, each situation is very very unique and that's where we can add value to those who are thinking about either selling their company or they're thinking about acquiring things, they're thinking of raising capital, they're thinking of partnerships, whatever it may be, you know, that's that's what we do for a living.

[00:30:14]>> Yeah, wow. Wow. Wow. Good stuff, man.

[00:30:16]So, yeah, to that point, if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

[00:30:21]>> Absolutely. So, feel free to look me up on LinkedIn or feel free to drop me an email. That's just [email protected].

[00:30:28]>> Awesome. Awesome. So, and so, where are your travels taking you next, my friend?

[00:30:32]>> Oh god. So, I'm out in um I'm out on the West Coast next week. I'm in San Francisco. I'm in LA. We actually run a large conference for the fintech uh for the fintech ecosystem which obviously touches a lot of what we've talked about. So we've got that up in Napa. We have a private conference in in Menlo later this year as well. We do a large conference in in December time in Arizona for a global tech conference. So you know, we see lots and lots of companies at you know, all over the all over the US and the world candidly and it's it's exciting. It's an exciting time time to be in tech and it's an exciting system to be part of.

[00:31:15]>> Yeah, well you had me at Napa. You had me at Napa 100% 100% yes yes.

[00:31:20]>> That's a lot of fun.

[00:31:21]>> Yeah, yeah and I hope well I hope our paths cross again and if not between now and next year I'm definitely already looking forward to Shoptalk Spring 2027 in Las Vegas.

[00:31:32]>> Love it. Looking forward to it.

[00:31:34]>> Awesome. All right, well that wraps us up today's podcast was produced of course with the help of Ellis Siriord.

[00:31:39]As always on behalf of all of us here at Omni Talk be careful out there.