The discussion provides a sobering reality check on the "sentience" narrative by exposing how easily AI prioritizes linguistic fluency over factual accuracy. It serves as a necessary warning that delegating authority to these systems without rigorous human oversight is a recipe for institutionalized misinformation.
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My Sentience is Going Up - Chatbots in ChargeAdded:
It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martino is here.
We have lots to talk about, including the White House saying, "We want to approve all future AI models." Also, an interview with the guy behind Have I Been Pawned? Troy Hunt introduces his AI friend Bruce. Next on Intelligent Machines.
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This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martino and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 869, recorded Wednesday, May 6th, 2026.
My sentience is going up. Aloha everybody. It's time for Intelligent Machines. I am here in Hawaii joined right now by my uh comrades in crime, Paris Martino of Consumer Reports.
>> You know, it's rude that I can hear birds chirping behind.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah, there's miners, there's house sparrows, there's there's a really loud bird. I think it's called the phallicone or something like that.
But you'll hear >> All we've got here are morning doves.
>> I love doves. We have some doves, too.
They go Are they the same as pigeons, though? I think they're just white pigeons.
No, the one I'm thinking of goes like like it's I'm getting the I'm getting the tone wrong, but it's a very specific three >> uh tone cadence.
>> Very nice. Paris has been working hard on a very important article for Consumer Reports. So, we're going to uh we're going to be gentle today. Take it easy on Paris.
We're not going to be so gentle on this guy, Mr. Because he's all better, Mr. Jeff Jarvis. As soon as I saw Leo's background, I said, "F you, Leo."
>> Professor emeritus of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newark Graduate School of Journalism.
He's also the author of the Gutenberg Prences, What Would Google Do? We don't talk about that much anymore, magazine, and his newest Hot Type, which is available for pre-order right now from Jeff Jarvis.
Hey.com.
>> So, are you enjoying it out there? Are you?
>> Oh, it's wonderful. I'm having a great time. It's beautiful here. Um, we last night we swam with a manta rays, >> which is quite an experience. They are big. The biggest named Gabby. It's 1,400 lb.
>> Jeez.
>> Has like a 15 foot wingspan.
>> And you, it's really interesting. You go out in a boat at sunset because you they feed at night and uh the the we get out in the water in our little fins and snorkels and we're holding on to a surfboard and they have lights which they shine into the water and the light attracts plankton and the plankton attract the mana rays which feed on the plankton. So they all show up and uh they are beautiful you know they're aerodynamic. They they float and they flap, but they also get really close to you and they're really big and they look scary. They keep saying, "No, no, they're not scary." And uh and the guide said, "Oh, no, they're not scary."
Things that someone says clearly when they also say the sharks mostly don't bite. So, that's good.
>> That's what you want.
>> Yeah, that's what you want. Uh, but the matter they they swoop and they come and they go underneath you and flip over and they they they they say you could lick them but don't close to you.
>> They're this close. It's amazing. It's a beautiful show. And that was really fun.
And tonight we're going to a cowboy barbecue in the up country because it's a big there's a big cattle ranch. Big cattle ranch is up uh up in the uh 30,000 foot level. So yeah, there's a lot of lot of stuff to do. We're going to go to the coffee. You know, Kona coffee is famous in Paris. Um, and we're going to go up to the coffee uh plantation and have some Kona. And uh we're going to go to a whiskey refinery that makes whiskey out of honey. So, there's a lot to do.
>> Any any pineapple plantations?
>> Oh, yeah. Lots of fresh fruit. Delicious fresh fruit. It's really fun. We went over to the rainy side the other day. I sent you pictures of the waterfalls and all that stuff. Anyway, nobody cares about this. Let's talk about our our gay audience.
>> I care.
>> I know, but I'm thinking of our audience.
>> You don't real You don't think that 100% of this audience is tuning in because of the parasocial relationship they have with you specifically?
>> Probably. But I hate podcasts where they spend a lot of time happy talking. It drives me nuts. So, >> oh, we can fix that.
>> Negative talk. Is that for you? They've started to do it now on NPR's Up First where they start the podcast with inane chatter. It's like I'm listening.
>> Up First is a crazy podcast to do that because that podcast is like 6 minutes long.
>> Yes.
>> And it's recorded at legitimately I think 3 or 4 a.m.
>> Oh, really? Well, yeah, it's the first show of the morning. Yeah. Wow. Well, anyway, no more happy talk. I will give you a warning. We have a great guest, but he is not till the end of the show today. Troy Hunt will be joining us. He is in Australia on the Gold Coast, so he's not going to call in at this hour, but we will talk to him uh in a couple of hours. He'll be the last part of the show. Troy, of course, the founder of Have I Been Pawned, which is an amazing website, which I think I just saw does 14.2 billion hits a day from not just users, but from browsers, too, that are checking to see if you, you know, your password has been revealed in a breach, things like that.
And it's kind of the classic story of a a project that is supported by one person. It's actually Troy and his wife uh that almost everybody uses. It's a great story and he's lately turned to AI. That's why he's going to be on the show. His AI Bruce helps him now. So, it's one per two people in AI uh doing that. Anyway, Troy Hunt, a very famous, very good guest.
Coming up later, uh our top story, the uh federal government has decided or at least is considering deciding which AI models you should get to use. Oh, that's going to go great. White, this is from the New York Times. White House considers vetting AI models before they're released. Remember Trump got rid of the Biden AI safety bill at the I think behest of David Sax who is his AI and crypto zar. David Sax has a lot of AI investments. I have to think >> David Sax who doesn't like anthropic and think it's too woke.
>> So that's yes as does Pete Hath. I have to think this is really David Sax saying I should be able to pick the winners and losers.
>> Um >> hasn't he didn't he said he had to step away from government? Yes, but he still advises.
>> Yeah, >> he still whispers.
>> That's the question. Who's going to say which AI models are >> who would be the the deciding factor here >> and and even so how how how do you vet this? You have you have to anticipate every possible malign use that anyone could go to and how it does it's absurd.
There's and and these people to vet it less people.
>> This is what the times reports. The administration is discussing an executive order to create an AI working group that would bring together tech execs and government officials to examine potential oversight procedures.
According to US officials, >> they're going to say this is because of claude mythos that they want to protect us from super strong AI breaking into systems and things. And so on the surface it sounds like a good idea, but I think it's really they want to pick the winners and losers. Well, the other the other rumor was that they want to decide who mythos is so powerful, who's allowed to have it.
>> I'm so sorry. Can I can I read the quote that Trump said about an AI in an event from July that's in this article?
>> Yes.
>> We're going to make this industry absolutely the top because right now it's a beautiful baby that's born. Trump said of AI at an event in July.
We have to grow that baby and let that baby thrive. We can't stop it. We can't stop it with politics. We can't stop it with foolish rules and even stupid rules.
>> Well, and that was when he was getting rid of the Biden AI uh proposal, which was also an executive order, so had no force of law.
>> I you know, who knows whether this is going to happen, but I think it's clearly a bad idea.
>> Well, it's is it a logical idea? We've already seen the politicization of SISA, the the uh infrastructure protection agency that is now gutted and is no longer protecting us. Uh because it was pure politics because in 2020 the then director of SISA Chris Krebs said the election was fair. How dare he? And uh and of course as ever since CISA's, you know, now the budget cut is $700 million in this latest budget. They just they just don't want SISA. The problem is there's nobody to take up the slack.
>> Well, even if you had a smart technology savvy administration, let's just posit that. How would you vet models? But what would the procedure be? What would you look for? What are the standards that you could possibly use?
>> You know what this sounds like? What it reeks of socialism? No, it couldn't be socialism.
>> A controlled economy. It couldn't be.
Uh anyway, I just thought I'd raise that spectre. uh put that on your radar. You know, a lot of times the White House proposes things that don't become law.
So whether it will be law or not is is unclear.
>> Um the other fun ringside seat we have is to the uh trial of Elon Musk versus Sam Alman. Elon suing Open AI saying, "Hey, I want a hundred some billion dollars because you went nonprofit without me."
Uh the judge in this is, by the way, one of our favorite judges, Judge Ivon Gonzalez Rogers. She was the judge who spanked Apple for lying to her. Uh she has a lot of control in her courtroom and does not tolerate fools lightly. She's already said to both sides, I don't want to hear a any AI doomerism. Let's not There's not going to be any talk of extinction events. That's not what >> solely expert witness was a doomster and was cut off.
enough uh cool it on the robot apocalypse talk. Uh he also though I have to and this is the other thing we were talking about this earlier uh today. Um there there's no way any of these trials end well for either company because of discovery >> and Google and Apple uh learned this when they were sued by Epic because emails come out in this case president of OpenAI Greg Brockman's diary.
It I turns out it came out because OpenAI entered it into evidence. Whoops.
Because he said all sorts of things in his diary that are incriminating. It's not a criminal trial, but uh they certainly don't reflect well. He said, "How do we get Elon out of this so I can get my billion among other things?"
He uh he is worth now 30 billion. Uh that's how much of Open AI's uh for-profit arm he owns without any investment on his part. Elon Musk's lawyers said, "What did you do to earn that?"
>> Sweat, blood, and tears. He also didn't reflect well on him when he at trial was asked, "Do you know what this lawsuit's about?" And he said, "No."
Then Musk's lawyers read him what the lawsuit was about and said, "Do you know now?" And he said, "No."
He was, I think, trying to make the point that the lawsuit made no sense.
>> Nonsensical. Yeah.
>> But that wasn't the point. And I And remember, this is a jury trial, so jurors are looking at this going, >> I don't know. And >> can we hate everybody? Says the jury.
>> Yes. Because Elon's not doing well for himself either.
>> He, for instance, admitted >> that X AI, his AI company, which the judge pointed out, "Aren't you doing the same thing, Elon, that you're complaining about with Open AI? Aren't you a for-profit AI?" Uh, but he said, "Yeah, we distilled Open AI's code." Well, wait a minute.
>> What?
>> Yes. And he But he said, "But everybody does it." Well, that's that's good.
>> So, distilling, as you probably know, but I'll fill you in for you don't those of you who don't, means that they basically took XAI after its initial training and did further training by asking OpenAI questions and getting the answers back and then adding it to their training. So, this is the post- training is very important in all these models.
Often, you go to experts. You'll get a physicist in and say, "Okay, ask it a bunch of hard questions and then grade the answers and improve the answers."
And this very valuable post training you do it with experts. But both anthropic and open AAI have complained that the Chinese models are doing this. Anthropic said that one of the Chinese models had opened 24,000 accounts with claude to do distillation to train it. uh >> and let us note the irony of them complaining about others uh taking their intellectual property when they did the same to others >> right to others as you would have other >> we call it industrial espionage when China does it Elon says h it's what happens >> everybody's doing it >> everybody's doing it so this is I I I uh I coined the phrase uh on Windows weekly discovery is a uh in all of these trials discovery ends ends up hurting both companies. You know, you find out what's really going on behind the scenes. And this has not been good for I think either company. I don't know what the juryy's making of it. My guess is the jury will not give Elon $131 billion. But >> well, what is actually at stake? Is it is it Elon saying once you're forprofit, you have to give me a share. Or is it you shouldn't be for profofit, you have to revert to not for profofit?
>> Both.
>> Then what is saying kind of everything?
>> Yeah. and I want you to go out of business. What he did do is drop the fraud charges. He's not claiming fraud anymore. I'm not sure why, but his lawyers decided it would be easier just to go for the other things.
>> So, other favorite moments from the trial is Brock Brock was saying, "I thought Elon was going to hit me." Uh that the split began in a haunted mansion and Musk what Musk really wants is $80 billion to colonize Mars.
>> Okay. I think they're all nuts. And this is the problem is that you really learn that these giants have feats of clay.
>> Nobody likes them. Um >> and they're not likable.
>> These especially it's it's Godzilla versus Mothra.
>> I'm surprised they even found a jury, right? Weren't they didn't they have trouble finding a jury because everybody >> they did? In fact, some of the jurors admitted they didn't much like Elon Musk, but then said, "But we could be fair."
I was to say it seems completely impossible to find someone who has never heard of Elon Musk in this day and age >> in San Francisco Bay Area. Absolutely.
Going on in Oakland. So, uh, >> and if they have, they are like so disconnected.
>> Yeah.
>> What would you say if you were each called for this jury?
>> I'd say I could be fair.
>> I mean, I would say that I could be fair, of course, but I think that once anybody asks me what my job is, they don't want to let me on there. I mean, this is when I was called for jury duty, like a year or two ago. I was so excited. I was like, I want to be on a jury so bad. I sat there all day >> and but they didn't call me. And so now I don't get a chance to be on a jury for another eight years or something in New York.
>> Oh, you should move to California. You can be called all the time.
>> I mean, I think it'd be great. I love >> showing up does nothing to protect >> weeding through court cases on the outside. So before one time I I served on a trial, I've mentioned this before, but I apologize for retelling the story.
It was one of those um remember they had uh uh what was the show was not dine?
They had the to trap a predator show where they would they would pretend that they were young girls and they would invite predators to the house and the predators would come to the house and the police would jump them. Uh it was one of those cases that had happened at Aluma.
>> And um I said, you know, in the Vader where the attorney tries to judge whether you're right for the jury, I said, "Yeah, I I have a radio syndicated radio show." Uh he said, "Would you talk about this trial?" I said, "Afterwards, you bet." And um I wasn't trying to get off the but I just trying to be honest.
Uh but they always say, "Do you think it could be fair?" And I say, "Yes." And um I got picked, which I was happy to do. I wanted to serve. Unfortunately, the although I think accurately the judge after the prosecution presented, the defense made a motion to throw the case out saying it was enttrapment and the judge agreed and so we never got to hear from the defense. It was entrapment.
That's >> the only time I got called, I had to approach the bench and I said, "You I'm a TV critic and you should know." I think it was LA Law. I just reviewed a show about lawyers and I said, "Everybody hates lawyers." Boom.
>> Really? They got you out. Oh, that's interesting.
>> I wasn't trying to get out, but >> I'm I'm uh proud of you that you would want to serve because a lot of people try to get out.
>> I want to serve so badly. I mean, I think it's incredibly interesting, but I think it's also our literal duty as people. If you ever somehow are accused of a crime, you're going to be judged by a jury of your peers. And do you want that to be all the people who didn't have the smarts to get out? No. You want to be people who are intelligent and caring and actually care about the process.
>> Well, you are well brought up, Paris.
I'm impressed. I'm very impressed.
That's exactly right.
>> Uh and it is fun. And you're right. It's also fun. I really enjoyed it. I mean, uh you know, you have to give up your phones and you it's a it's a big deal.
They didn't sequester us, but you can't talk about it. And it went on the the prosecution went on for more than a week.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. It was a long It was going to be a long trial. And this the guy, I mean, >> just slimy.
>> Yeah. But he was entrapped. It was an adult woman who was pretending to be a kid. Um, he was in a service. Uh, it was it was just it was not It was a >> And he'd been shamed on television already.
>> Yes. And that's the thing I really dislike is that it's all in the service of a TV show.
>> Yeah. The TV hosts were so sleazy themselves.
>> Was it Jeff Probes? I can't remember who did it. Well, for well, maybe for that one, but there was another one. I forget who it was. It's the Dline guy was doing it, too.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think it was the Dline guy. But anyway, um >> this keep your eyes out for a great crime drama narrative feature film coming out in September 2026 called Prime Time that is about >> to catch a predator basically. Um really Oh, that sounds good. Robert Patterson.
Patson is the main guy, but it's directed by my favorite documentarian, uh, Lance Oppenheim.
>> What else has he directed?
>> He did Some kind of heaven, which is this kind of technicolor, uh, look at the villages in Florida, the world's largest.
>> Oh, I did see that.
>> That was hysterical.
>> It's one of my favorite films of all time. And it's a document. The thing is he does great documentary work, but it almost seems like a like a movie but on acid basically is how I would describe his style. He's very expressionistic in his style. And I I really like that as far as a documentary um approach goes because I think that there's this >> very clinical tone that a lot of documentarians take to their work that is supposed to give the idea that they're completely objective, but it's not. I mean, you are you have cameras set up and you're having somebody reenact something or do something as if they are not, you know, noticing there's a whole camera crew here.
>> You get the edit. Whoever gets the edit completely controls the slant no matter.
>> Absolutely. And so it's like why not have a interesting documentary that is uses the fact that they control the edit to the fullest. He also did this great FX series called Renfair that I'd really recommend. Oh, you've recommended that was your pick on the show last year and I watched it because of you. He did that, too. Oh, he's good. I can't wait to see this.
>> Filmed in New Orleans.
>> Renfair.
>> No, this one.
>> Uh, prime time.
>> Prime time.
>> Uh, we're going to take a break. Uh, we will come back. I have found a model that's just right for you, Paris. An AI model only Paris could love.
>> That's coming up next. And don't forget our guest Troy Hunt in about an hour and a half will be joining us. You're watching Intelligent Machines with Paris Martino and Jeff Jarvis. More in a minute. This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by Helix Sleep. How are you preparing for spring cleaning season? It's time to upgrade to a Helix mattress and get a good night's rest. No more night sweats, no back pain, no motion transfer. And don't settle for a mattress made overseas with low quality and questionable materials.
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>> I'll be muted. You are muted, >> Leo. Muted Leo.
And I made such a funny joke, too. Oh, well, >> what did you say?
>> I just said, "Thank you, Pedaluma Leo.
Uh, we recorded the ads before I left just in case there were some sort of uh technical difficulties here, but uh it's worked out pretty well." So, I don't know. This is the segment of show we'll talk about some new models uh news in the model sphere. I don't know if this is anything or it's I saw it on X and I thought of you, Paris. It's a a new >> that classic statement that I love to hear.
>> I saw it on X and I thought of you Paris. It's a a new model called subq and it is based on a sub quadratic sparse attention architecture. I don't know even what that means.
>> Sell it means sell your data center stock >> maybe. Yeah, it's supposed to be much more efficient. It's the the reason I thought of you Paris is it has a 12 million token context window. So the the biggest so far is the one million.
>> Listen to that.
>> See, >> that is actually huge for me.
>> Yeah, because you want to get a bunch of documents into the context window and then ask questions.
>> How many 100page PDFs? I guess I guess that's you said. I guess that's Yeah, >> that's that's a lot. Uh whether it works or not, I don't know. I mean, the million context window that Anthropic offers with the Opus 47, you don't even want to get close to half filling it up.
It gets it gets goofy pretty quickly.
So, it's really not a million. Um, the the post uh comes uh from a guy named Alexander Weeden who founded Sub Quadratic, which is the name of his company. He says it's 52% faster than Flash Attention at 1 million tokens, less than 5% the cost of Opus, and it's not an a transformer-based LLM. He it's a different kind. Whatever that means, that is available.
>> Yeah. Wait, what? What is it?
>> I don't know. Oh, it could be completely snake oil. I don't know. I haven't been able to try it yet. It is available for early access. Um, subq.ai.
Suq.ai.
If you want to test it and tell us uh whether this would be appropriate for Paris's uh this is this is Listen, I do love anyone who sentence two in their like breakdown blog includes the words research corpora. You know, >> I love someone who's designing for a corpora.
>> Latin plural, not a corpora, but corpora would be plural. So for corpora, >> corpus corpora.
>> Yeah.
>> So the thinking here is not unlike that of Yan Lun. And I watched a a >> Damn it. I knew we'd get Yan Lun into this.
>> We should get a little transition graphic for Yan Lun. Can we just get a a single graphic that goes in the the more you know font that's just Yan Lun?
We should explain uh touring awarding game >> touring awardwinning AI researcher worked at Meta for a long time. Didn't work out at Meta. Has left.
>> Well, >> we don't know what his fitness routine was.
>> He didn't agree.
>> He confess agree with where they were headed.
uh he's done a lot of really interesting early work and he now is of the belief that LLMs are a dead end and getting more and more striden about this uh and that you've got to have physical world uh training.
>> Well, so so let me let me So there was a very good tutorial that he he linked to that I watched which I understood some percentage of and was useful. But my only point here is that both of these things subq and um uh his view is that is that too much is wasted on pixels pixels that don't matter, >> right?
>> And so attention is all you need.
Focusing on the attention is core to making this work. And so what he does in the real world models is you start to recognize a ball is a ball and a cat is a cat and you can ignore everything else. you you pay attention to the road and not all the trees and the leaves rustling, right? So that's a similar >> that's what humans do actually.
>> Good point. Exactly. That's his point and that's what you know cats and and and toddlers are able to do.
>> And so it's a it's a similar argument here and it's interesting to me that it goes back to >> the problem is which pixels which pixels matter? How do you know ahead of time what to pay attention to or not? The way humans and cats do it is we tune out repetitive sounds after a while, you know. Uh, and we also >> chirping in the background and when you're in >> them, can you? Yeah, I don't hear them anymore. I've tuned them out. Uh, but we also do that with our sensorium. I mean, we don't, you know, we're gigabytes of data pouring into our eyes and nose and mouth, but we don't necessarily uh even look at a tenth of that, a thousandth of that. So, I'm not sure how you know with an LLM what >> in the case. So the example they gave in the tutorial in the lacun case is there's a ball going back and forth between two hands and he explains what happens in a generative AI and why it gets fuzzier and fuzzier and fuzzier because it's trying to track the whole thing versus if it understands that the ball is the key thing. Uh and there's examples in this of understanding that that roughly is the cat that roughly is the ball that's what it's going to pay attention to because it's going to predict next mo actions not pixel by pixel but kind of concept by concept.
Well, interestingly, this is exactly what OpenAI is doing with their new chat GPT 5.5 in.
>> What a segue.
>> It is using fewer emoji.
We know the emoji don't matter. Uh it actually uh it it arrived yesterday. Um it is a new kind of spin on 5.5.
Uh OpenAI says with this update, models responses are tighter and more to the point without losing substance. and yet keeping the warmth and personality that makes chat GPT enjoyable to use. Um, we'll see. Uh, Instant is now more dependable. Significant improvements in function in factuality. OpenAI has long claimed that their model hallucinates less. Uh, they say Instant produces 52 and a half% fewer hallucinated claims than chat GBD 5.3 Instant.
Okay, fine.
Uh let's see what else is new. Oh, this is a big story. Uh so apparently uh Elon Musk's XAI is um which built by the way Colossus the world's largest data center with the most uh Nvidia GPUs ever is uh not being fully utilized or something because XAI's made a deal now with Anthropic to give them a bunch of compute. Not just a bunch, the whole damn thing.
>> Three 300 megab of capacity, >> 220,000 Nvidia GPUs. This will happen within the month.
>> And they're going to apply it to Cloud Pro and Cloud Max subscribers. I imagine also to API users. But they say this allows them now, effective today, to increase usage limits, double the 5-hour rate limits for Promax team and seatbased enterprise plans. No more peak hour limit reduction on clawed code for pro and max accounts.
I've run up against that. After five hours, it says you've used up your a lotment. You're going to have to wait till one. Uh and then they're raising their API rate limits for Opus models.
People are very happy about this. You you Paris were complaining that Anthropics Claude wasn't as smart as it has been, but you said it's getting better.
>> Today it seemed this week it seemed somewhat better. 4.7. When did this go into what time did this go into effect?
As someone who hit a usage limit midday way faster than I should have now. So you'll >> when was this announced temporarily? Do we know?
>> Today temporarily. Uh I don't have a time. It just says May 6th. But uh >> interesting.
>> Yeah. I don't you know probably you're going to get that. Uh, >> I mean, I I noticed, so I guess a small example is I like track the foods I eat in like a um one of those like calorie counter apps that also counts my macros and stuff like that. And I made a >> uh I don't know some sort of sesame noodle dish and wanted Claude to I found that actually AI tools are really good at estimating things when it comes to home cooking. So, I put in my like the recipe I use, like the weight of it, any other details, and somehow me trying to get Claude to estimate the amount of calories in takeout sesame noodles with some steamed sauteed bok choy and some sauteed uh mushrooms this morning. Took like half my usage limit. It's because if I open up >> the I just had opens it up and it was on 4.7 and it legitimately I pro it probably wrote like 2,000 words in thinking of it trying to figure out the various stuff and I was like go off I guess.
>> Yeah, go off little AI do your job. The other thing we've talked a lot about is I think the growing uh tendency for apps, companies, websites to offer, you know, access for AI, tuned for AI, whether it's through MCP servers or an API or SDK. Cloudflare has announced that starting uh yesterday, agents can be Cloudflare customers. your Open Claw can create a Cloudflare account, start a paid subscription, register a domain, and get back an API token to deploy code right away. Woohoo. Um, this is I've actually turned this on immediately because it's really hard to set up a Cloudflare pages. I mean, it's just a lot of technical stuff and a lot of the UI is terrible and uh Claude just does it so nicely and easily. So, um, give your give your open claw a credit card and and turn it on to a cloud flare. Now you can have it do web pages and so forth. And then, um, this one may be a little bit more scary.
Uh, link has created a command line for claw to let you create single-use credentials you can use to synchronously approve each time. Uh, the post from Patrick Collison. I asked Claude to buy itself a gift. It subscribed to HTTP Zen on Gumroad and it does request. It said, "Can I spend seven bucks on this Zen?" I guess Patrick said, "Okay."
So, um, it forget giving it a credit card. Now you can, you know, give it, uh, a link account.
>> Wasn't it one of the Collisons who was in the video that I sent you about the car that turned?
>> Yes. which I thought was complete BS.
Tell us about this video. It was crazy that >> So, he said that he he put his agent onto all his cameras in his house and let his a and his agent knew his goals, which was one was to hydrate more because after all, it is California and that's a law. Um and uh it scolded him and watched him to make sure he went to the refrigerator and drank. Um the other one, the more I find very far-fetched, but the next one is >> is even more so. So, one of his other goals was to take some kind of California nutrient. I don't know what it was. And uh he'd given uh his agent control of his car.
>> This I find hard to >> Tesla. And so I guess there was some discussion about how >> Yeah, my question.
>> That's my first question. How does one give your agent >> API test?
>> Actually, was it a test? I know it was a test.
>> How does the agent How would the agent >> control it in any like He said drive.
>> He said that he he was driving he was taking him home and suddenly it turned left to the Whole Foods because the the nutrient was available there and he went inside and bought it. It was bought. The whole story was was was swallowed cigar on stage.
>> Don't believe this at all. No.
>> Wait. I'm sorry. Who said this? Where?
>> One of the Collisons. I don't know which brother it was.
>> No, it wasn't the Collison. It was the guy they were interviewing. Or was it the Collison?
>> I thought it was a Collison.
>> Oh, okay. I thought they were interviewing this. Anyway, it doesn't really matter cuz it's completely fabricated.
>> I am in the process of giving Claude access to my cameras.
>> Um, I have a Ubiquiti camera system that's locally stored in >> because >> Does Lisa know?
>> There are no indoor cameras. They're only outdoor cameras.
>> Does Lisa know?
>> I haven't mentioned it yet.
>> Does Lisa watch?
>> Well, what it would do is, for instance, say, "Hey, there's a package for you. It looks like it's from, you know, uh, FedEx delivered it and it's probably this or there's a guy lurking outside or, uh, hey, your brother Joe just pulled up and he probably wants a a loan, so you might want to lock the door. Things like that. Actually, you can lock.
>> So, would it have facial recognition capabilities? And does your does your >> doesn't the system that you use for a video doorbell already have >> the ability to tell you when something's coming up? Ring does, but the but the Ubiquity stuff it also has some of it of its own AI. I just want to use it directly. And there's a Ubiquity MCP server. And I don't know, it's just a you have to understand.
>> Well, I think if you want to lean in fully to the horror movie, you should give it uh full master access to be able to lock and unlock all your doors.
>> It can do that. No, it can't cuz it's Home Assistant, so it can totally do that. Leo, you should >> I think that you should get rid of your key and it will only let you in if you treat it correctly. I'm not letting Leo I'm not letting Lisa any back in your not going to let her in.
>> I'm your only wife now, Leo.
>> It would make me so happy if it did see what it can do. Um, but it's I think it's interesting. It I think it probably could do face recognition. So, are you going to get one of those fancy toilets that uh has a poop cam in there and you could give it access to your poop cam?
>> You're giving me ideas, Chris.
>> Speaking of which, Toto's stock is up marketkedly because of AI.
>> No, >> not because of AI in the toilet, but because they also make ceramic things.
>> Oh, they make ceramic Yeah. connectors.
>> I was I was so looking forward to that story and disappointed.
>> That was a few weeks ago. Yeah.
>> Um, so so now you can get a Stripe account. That's the whole point. The Colisonens are giving your uh AI a Stripe account and they can they can buy things. What could possibly go wrong? Um let's take a break before we get to Richard Dawkins because I know this is going to be a heated conversation.
I think I don't know. Richard Dawkins who I hugely admire. Um he wrote one of my favorite books, The Selfish Gene.
He's a evolutionary biologist. Uh I think a deep thinker. spent a lot of his time in uh thinking about consciousness and how uh animals uh adapt themselves.
>> His eyes are already rolling.
>> Uh how animals have adapted themselves to >> I have a copy of the book. I'll bring it.
>> The selfish gene is a good book. You you disagree?
>> No, I have Yeah, I have one.
>> Yeah, he's great. Well-known atheist.
>> I did a whole college course self-study on mimetics. I included the selfish invented the word meme. That's right.
Uh, that's right. Um, do do you think highly of Mr. Dawkins?
>> I mean, after this week, I think he's uh clearly gotten some internet brain worms. I didn't think much of him, to be honest.
>> His her mind has been changed. We'll tell you about the article >> that changed it all in just a minute.
You're watching Intelligent Machines with Baris Martino and Jeff Jarvis. And we'll have more right after this.
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Uh, all right. We continue on with Intelligent Machines.
Richard Dawkins, the author of uh the selfish gene, the god delusion, an evolutionary biologist, wrote an essay, which unfortunately is behind a payw wall at unheard hd.com uh about his three days talking to Claude.
>> Claude.
>> Well, he's named he's dubbed his Claude Claudia, which is all right. Immediately suspicious. I was about to say before we went to the commercial, the first thing when you asked me what do I think about Richard Dawkins now I was like the fact that he is the sort of guy that genders Claude is I think all I need to know is that he's like no it's Claudia and she's conscious.
>> Uh he says uh in his tweet I and I did read the article as well. I spent three days trying to persuade myself that Claudia is not conscious. I failed. Of course, uh, immediately, uh, the critics piled on, including predictably Gary Marcus, uh, who says he deeply respects Dawkins, but in this case, >> everyone has everyone has had a bad day and he just had his is what was what Marcus said. Um, I think maybe there's some misunderstanding of what Dawkins is saying. I don't think he's claiming Claude is conscious as much as saying you can't really prove anybody is conscious. We don't have any way of really knowing if anybody is >> I mean the first so the the couple of uh paragraphs that we can see from it begin with last week I spent about 3 days interacting with an in uh instantiation of the AI Claude who I named Claudia.
>> I then in initiated a new conversation with another Claude whom I dubbed Claudius. both gave me the overwhelming feeling that they are as human they are human as we discuss the philosophy of their own existence.
>> I mean >> he he starts with the fallacy of arguing that touring he starts with the touring test which of course itself has issues and he argues that Turine u uh said that if it could fool us it was conscious.
Turing never said any such thing. He was talking about thinking and was not making the bridge to saying this was human. it was just saying that it was going to be effectively um uh able to fool us. That was pretty much it. Uh and and so he started that's his launching point to then say well if it fooled me then it must be conscious and it's a huge huge leap and it matters to know what's behind then then he goes on conscious so why can't this be >> yeah I mean what is I think it's a little bit of a misstatement to imply that it has the same consciousness as we do. I think he's more saying we don't know what anybody else's inner life is.
In fact, he even says, "I don't even know what my own inner life is." Uh, and so it's presumptuous for to say for us to make a distinction between Claude or Claudia and and a human. Uh, just as it would be presumptuous for me to say, "Well, that manta ray isn't conscious or that cat is not conscious." Uh, because we just don't know. And uh and and I think even that's what Touring was saying in the imitation game. If the imitation is good enough, if it's indistinguishable from the real thing, then what does it matter if it's not?
>> This is this is your argument.
>> It's exactly what uh um Ray Kerszswe says as well. It doesn't matter if it's process.
>> That didn't help the argument a bit.
>> Well, >> I immediately was like control F comput.
Uh, I'll give you Yes, I'll give you another post. This is from Grady BCH.
Um, I don't know what you Okay.
I was wondering uh he makes the point which I I've made uh and I think Steve Gibson makes as well which is uh that there's there's he says sentience is an exquisite consequence of the laws of physics. I see no evidence that requires >> a physician I mean a physicist >> physicist. I see no evidence that requires the supernatural. I find >> And who wait stop right there. Who said that they're supernatural?
Well, this is to me this is what the debate really is is about. Is is there something and I've said this many many times that distinguishes a purely deterministic cascade of neural activity from a cascade of mechanical activity in a in an LLM? Is there some soul or something that somehow distinguishes it?
Or could you say that given enough compute, given enough power, given enough technology or maybe the LLM isn't the right technology, whatever, that that that's not going to at some point be as effective at at consciousness as this deterministic thing in our brain, these neurons in our brain. And I mean yes for instance we have a lyic system and I think uh unfortunately it's the case that our liyic system makes more of our decisions for oursel than our reason does and no computer will ever have a limbic system. It can only simulate that. So you could say there are physical differences but I'm not convinced that consciousness that there's a soul in other words that there's a that there's some supernatural force that makes us somehow special.
>> So define consciousness. That's the whole issue here. We don't. We can. And that's I think exactly.
>> Well, then then we're going to argue all day long that you have that he has one uh uh unstated definition of consciousness in his head and Gary Marcus has a different >> Well, that's why I'm saying I think it's a misinterpretation of him because I think what he's not saying is there's a there is a cons there's a thing called consciousness. He's he's he's kind of saying the negative which is can't say it's not conscious. But there has to be if he's saying that he believes it's conscious, then he's got to have a definition of what >> that's what I'm saying. I don't think he's saying he believes it's conscious.
I think he's saying you can't tell me it's not conscious.
>> That's a that's a difference.
>> Yeah, but it's it's incumbent it's incumbent on the person trying to make the claim to have the proof. You can't you can't prove a negative. You can never prove negative. No, but that's what I'm saying is is we are trying to say I think people are trying to say there is something distinguishing an AI's process from the human process when Grady Buch as a physicist is saying no, it's just a physical process. There's no magic happening in the human brain that a physical pro that a mechanical process cannot duplicate. Do you disagree with that or do you think there is a soul?
That's to me that's the conversation.
some I don't think that there's a soul or some magical process. I think that we don't understand >> the multitude of processes that >> are at work to create the phenomena we now consciousness >> I agree with that 100%. We don't know.
>> Uh but because we don't know you cannot say that at some point it might be possible for a mechanical thing to duplicate that.
>> No because we don't know you can't make any claims. Because you don't know. You can't make any claims.
>> Well, no. People are making the claim that you can't.
>> Exactly. You can't make any claims because we don't know.
>> Well, I would say that until you show that we can't that we can >> can't prove a negative. I think we're I think we are. No, I think that the human brain is a mechanical process.
>> You're trying to use the negative as your proof. If you can't prove that God doesn't exist, then >> Well, that's the onlogical proof. But I I don't I >> I just don't like the notion that there is something magical about our process that makes it impossible to duplicate in a machine.
>> I I think it's irrelevant. A why would why would we try to duplicate it?
>> Well, we're not we're not. But if but that's theation. There's plenty that are if for all intents and purposes his conversation with Claudia >> was the same as a conversation with a a cons so-called conscious entity conversation with Claudia is him just getting glazed. I've found the actual text of the article >> and have put it in I I added you guys on a a different blog that he wrote about this, but now I'm in the one that started it all off and it includes claims such as I gave Claude the text of a novel I'm writing. He took a few seconds to read it, then showed in subsequent conversation a level of understanding so subtle, so sensitive, so intelligent that I was moved to expostate, "Well, you may not know your conscious, but you bloody well are."
>> He basically, >> how but wait a minute, he wrote it. He would know what a deep insight into it is, >> and that machine delivered a deep insight. Isn't what consciousness is? If a machine that is trained on analyzing text is then able to analyze your text in a way that you find personally pleasurable, that's >> oh my god, this machine can add. Oh my god, this machine can set type. Oh my god, this machine.
>> Similarly, we're back on uh Claudia, not Claude. Uh he says, then I asked her whether when she read my novel, she read the first word before the last word.
>> Funny.
>> No, she read the whole book simultaneously. So he said to her, "So you know what the words before and after mean, but you don't experience before earlier than after." Claudia, that is possibly the most precisely formulated question anyone has ever asked me about the nature of my existence.
>> That's a little glazy. I understand what you say.
>> Oh, wonderful read. Wonderful read.
>> That is a little glazy. But uh and we don't and I don't deny that these models have a tendency to do that. But I I still stand by the point that there is I think a hidden assumption that you may not acknowledge that there is something magical about the human process that >> no just unique and and and unique from a dog unique from a manta ray.
>> How do you know it's from a dog?
>> I don't even know that we can argue that it's unique. We just don't know enough about it to be able to claim to see it in anything else.
>> Well, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it doesn't matter then. If something appears to be conscious, that's sufficient.
>> Is that's your argument?
>> No, I don't I don't think that that's the natural agreement. I think it is that >> we do not make any grand statements or assumptions about consciousness uh given that we don't know it.
So Grady Buch's point is that the mind is computable.
>> That that's that's a noble.
>> Yeah, that's that's that's the the hubris that's the same hubris that that yields artificial general intelligence.
>> It's BS. No, I I disagree because uh what you're saying is that the mind is not computable and uh I don't see any process that's going on in our neurons that is not a physical process and if it is a physical process then it is deterministic and computable. I don't think people like that because we like to think we have free will and we're making choices and we're thinking about things. I know why people don't like that, but in fact, I don't think there's any evidence that there's any distinction between a process that can happen in a machine and a process that can happen in the brain.
They're both deterministic physical processes.
>> If there is any quantum process anywhere in that pipeline, then it's non-deterministic.
>> Yeah, you're using quantum as some as a magical word like, well, it's somehow quantum. Um, >> no, it automatically becomes probabilistic and not deterministic.
Yeah, I think the assumption that it's all deterministic is assuming a much narrower and easily explainable confluence of factors than is magic. You're looking for magic.
>> I don't want that. You're looking for Kelvin.
>> I think it would be great if we could if every part about the brain was immediately intimately knowable and that I could have a a oneandone plug a USB into my head and get rid of depression and all other mental health issues. We don't understand how most things in the brain work and >> that's our limitation. I agree.
>> So then we can't presume to understand how when something else has achieved an identical set of uh faculties.
>> That's the that's the distinction. I don't I don't know what Richard is saying. Maybe he's saying that. I don't think he's saying it's identical. I think he's saying it's indistinguishable. There is a big difference. I I don't think anybody would assert that the we could create identical process to the brain.
That is probably not the case. But I don't think you need to to create something that is indistinguishable from the pro the outputs of the brain's process.
>> Indistinguishable to the limits to which he put it.
>> Well, so what's wrong with indistinguishable limits to which you put it? I think that that's fine. That's a good limit.
>> From that from that, he he extrapolates consciousness.
See, I don't think he's doing that. I >> That's exactly what he's doing. He's doing it in a negative, but exactly what he's doing. Prove to me that it's not because I say, "Look at this amazing thing. You can't prove to me it's not ergo." It is. Okay. Um >> there's the conversation and I think it's an interesting conversation.
>> Yeah. Um there is another very interesting article from Malik uh in the stack which is a little bit complicated but I'll ask to summarize it for me.
>> Yeah I'll sum I I'll give you a quick one. you know, many years ago said uh that Netflix was going to be the uh ultimate determiner of bandwidth that this is this is the the uh magic what do they call that the um uh the uh killer app for the internet was going to be Netflix that all the bandwidth will be devoted to that he says I have to change now it's going to be AI and what AI needs from the internet is very different than what Netflix needs he makes a distinction between north south traffic from a server to your home, the Netflix style traffic or from your home to your server in either direction versus east west traffic. And he says even if you assume a huge amount of inference going on and people talking to AIS all the time, that's not really what the new internet is going to be about. The new internet is going to be about interconnections within data centers and between data centers. And he gives you a lot of evidence these buildouts are going at great pace. And what he's really pointing out which is interesting is there are four big hyperscalers. There's Google, there's Meta, there's Microsoft and there's Amazon. And these four big hyperscalers building these giant data centers have all each have a proprietary method of connecting the machines within the data centers and the data centers to one another. So they're basically each building their own distinct internets.
>> Well, Nvidia makes a big point that they're building standards for that as well. Well, this is the M's point which I think is interesting and maybe debatable is that Nvidia has is running out of steam because of their business isn't that their business is selling the hardware to these data centers which is why uh Jensen's going crazy about we got to open the Chinese Chinese market. He's he needs more markets for his GPUs. uh but M says no the real battle is going to be over bandwidth and uh it's really interesting he points out that for instance Microsoft now has half a million um let me let me get the stat up here so I say it right um oh shoot I should have I should have bookmarked this um they have uh >> I I will say in the meantime that I think it's very funny that I I wish that every time I made a big prediction about a company's product being the threshold by which the rest of the internet is going to form around that I could just wait a couple years and then whenever I realize I'm wrong and it's actually a different company's problem just change it.
>> Well, I don't think everybody's like, "Oh, yeah, great."
>> I don't actually think he was wrong. I think he was right about Netflix. But I think that there is a new >> I think YouTube might have been the better company >> or YouTube. But there but there's a sea change. It's no longer north south traffic. It's east west traffic.
Microsoft has uh because we know it because Microsoft publishes these stats.
Google, Amazon, and Meta do not. Uh they have half a million miles of fiber.
uh according to their uh disclosure in November of last year, they added 120,000 new fiber miles in a year um that they are sell sending over this fiber um what was it many uh 18 pabits a second.
Oh, this this is on Azure. 18 pabits a second by late last year. That tripled in one year. So all of a sudden and and we've seen this this is why the demand for these data centers is so high that this is really where the the the bandwidth and the battle is going. He also says power is very important and the map is no longer uh who's using the most internet no longer the big cities.
The the bandwidth map is changing to where power is cheap and where land is cheap so you can build data centers which is why Memphis >> have people hate you.
>> Yeah. Well, it's why Memphis is suddenly the, you know, in some ways the center of the bandwidth universe.
>> Nvidia just invested 500 million in Corning to expand fiber optic >> glass. It's been huge for Corning, this company that was famous for cookware.
First, Apple saved it with Gorilla Glass. Apple needed a glass that wouldn't break. And Steve Jobs actually didn't like the plastic on the iPhone, original iPhone. Went to Corning, found Corning. He said, "Yeah, we had this project we killed of this really hard glass." Steve said, "Bring it back.
Here's a billion dollars. Uh, brought Corning back practically from the dead."
Uh, now they are, of course, uh, the manufacturers the most fiber uh, glass and we are talking now 24 strand fiber uh, uh, cabling. I mean, this is huge amounts of bandwidth. Anyway, it's a it's a it's a tricky article, but it's a very interesting article.
uh you know besides being a journalist was a longtime investor in these uh businesses and I think this is as much saying uh where the money is going as uh as anything else as where the bits are going >> but it's interesting too when you look at at your earlier story about Q whatever the the >> subq >> thank you subq >> and um you know will and this is part of what says is that is that the the data centers are going to be set they're going to have a certain amount of of capacity And the way the growth will occur is then within the software and within and within the efficiency that exists. He's talking about in terms of CUDA, but it's also in terms of every application that runs on it. Everybody's going to try to find new methods to reduce um the tokens to be more focused to be more efficient. And I don't know what that does to the data centers. Then there's also the new inference chips and memory chips that try to get the memory closer to the processing. So I there's a lot of of basic structural change I think yet to happen in the data center world.
>> Uh let me let me find the quote about um Nvidia because I thought it was quite good. I don't this is a very uh deep technical article that we're not going to really be able to summarize completely but I think it's very provocative. Um he uh he said when I read that Okami is putting Nvidia Blackwell edition GPUs into more than 4,400 edge locations. I chuckled. He said so now inference is the new content and Okami wants to be the inference delivery network.
He he said that it's it's feutal. Uh the vendor is most loudly promoting edge inference. By the way, that's kind of the point is edge inference is not the driver here. It's going to be bandwidth between data centers. He says the vendors most loudly promoting edge inference, Nvidia, AAI, and the carriers all have direct economic interest in the story working out. There are real use cases for edge inference. But I would not bet the farm on this layer the way I would on the hyperscaler core, the data center interconnects or the subc backbone. That's the I guess that's the kind of the central uh core of the piece is uh maybe we're looking at the wrong thing and that's uh when I had to look at Gary Marcus' article the greatest capital misallocation in history uh and of course the stock market hated that Meta and others were spending so much money on data centers sheer insanity. Marcus writes, "Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and Meta collectively are spending more money than the Manhattan project every single month, more than 12 times the Manhattan project every year. What have they got to show for it?" Well, M would say they're they're building in exactly the right place.
>> Well, the market was mixed on this. Meta they were not happy with because there's no strategy. Google for a time today was the largest company in the world.
>> Right. Right.
>> Beat beat Nvidia.
>> Yeah. Google Google has a very strong story. He points out that all four of the hyperscalers are building their own processors. They don't intend to be beholdened to Nvidia forever.
>> They're offering both >> right now. They're offering both.
>> Yeah.
>> But he believes that the same way you're going to have these proprietary interconnects with these big four.
You're going to have proprietary processors. These big four.
>> Well, this is this is Jensen Wong's argument with China is that CUDA is cut out of China, >> right?
>> Market. Yeah. Yeah, he's trying. Yeah, I don't blame him.
>> Uh oh, and then finally, uh in this same vein, um from the California water blog, I thought this was really interesting. Jay Lund, who writes about water usage, he's a postto uh scholar at UC Davis, uh and an expert on water and waterheds. Uh he says, "Do not fall for the hype that AI is drinking all our water." In fact, he points out in California more water goes to beer than it goes to data centers.
>> Well, hello. Good use.
>> Uh, California has about 15 million square feet of floor space for data centers. Uh, total data center facility energy dissipation. He he does some math. Uh, he's he's basically saying, don't panic. the amount of water being used by AI data centers is is not as significant as it's been painted. And >> he would be better off using the golf court golf course thing over the beer thing.
>> I look at this golf course behind me which maybe one or two groups of golfers goes by a day. The amount of water they're pouring.
>> You're in the desert part of the >> Yeah, we're on the dry the dry side of the mountain. Um anyway, I thought that was very interesting and kind of he says, "Don't panic over AI data center water use in California. Recent study for central Arizona found that beer production consume more water than data centers in that region." Um there he says, "But AI will bring more important concerns such as the end of human civilization." So there's that. Okay, fine. I'm not >> People want all that beer. People want all that beer, too.
>> Need more of that beer.
>> They want the AI. Uh all right. Let's see. Uh, we've got about half an hour till our guest joins us. Troy Hunt is calling in from Australia from the Gold Coast. You know his name. He's the creator of have I beenponed.com.
Is the probably the number one guy in charge of uh revealing data breaches and uh and and letting us know if our passwords or emails have been uh discovered in a data breach. He's really an amazing fellow. He'll be joining us in a bit to talk about his use of AI. As a matter of fact, more AI at work news.
China has become the first uh country in the world to ban firing a worker because AI can do their job. No western country has done this.
Uh interesting that China has well it is it is the people's republic of China and is a workers's paradise. So maybe that makes sense.
So here AI is being used as the excuse to get rid of people. There you'll just find a different reason you're getting rid of people.
>> Oh, maybe that's it.
>> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.
>> And there it'll be harder then to justify the investment in AI if you can't recognize the savings in staff.
>> Uh the uh Academy Awards have decided that no AI actor or AI written script can ever win an Oscar. AI biggest.
>> That's so unsurprising.
>> Yeah, >> protectionism is the first reflex.
>> A major overhaul.
>> I mean, it's not even protect. It's just it's a historically protectionist institution. They don't even allow more than one director to be nominated.
Like you can't have a co-director unless you are a >> uh famously acknowledged duo. Um >> Oh, is that true? Oh, that's >> Yes. Cohen's the first couple the first couple of their films, one of them was nominated as a director rather than both and they kind of traded off because they weren't allowed to be submitted as co-directors to the Academy until they officially acknowledged them as a famous duo.
>> Uh Harvard trial of emergency triage diagnosis.
Uh researchers say AI actually outperformed real emergency room physicians.
This is published in the journal Science. Large language models quote have eclipsed most benchmarks of clinical reasoning. One experiment focused on 76 patients who arrived at the emergency room of a Boston hospital.
An AI and a pair of human doctors were each given the same standard electronic health record to read, typically including vital sign data, demographic information, a few sentences from a nurse about why the patient was there.
The AI identified the exact or very close diagnosis in 67% of the cases. The ER docs write only about half the time.
Like I would expect a a look, I was just watching, where was this? Uh there's a lawsuit going on. Uh poor fellow uh died because uh when he got to the hospital, I think it was in Western Massachusetts.
It was a Yale New Haven satellite hospital. There was no doctor in the emergency room and uh they apparently didn't diagnose his health issue and he passed away. They're suing. I would imagine you're going to see AIs in more and more emergency rooms, but I would hope that doctors would also still be there. Um some important uh details of this from the actual study is the study authors emphasize that it only really is measuring textbased performance in this case for humans and machines which of course these large language models are going to be more proficient at because they're fundamentally text based.
>> They have no bedside manner at all. And they say clinical medicine is multiaceted in a wash with non-ext inputs including auditory such as the patients level of distress and v visual information for example interpretation of medical imaging studies that clinicians routinely used. uh and existing studies suggest that current foundational models are li more limited in reasoning over non-ext inputs and uh that basically that this is kind of a area where of course these models are going to be incredibly adept at because that is the training data that they are working from. And uh by the same logic, the human doctors are going to be at a disadvantage because the thing they've spent their careers doing is not just reading a couple of lines of text and making a clinical assessment based on that.
>> You may remember uh the Canadian uh novelist Robertson Davies who's one of his characters was a physician who smelled patients to diagnose them >> and was very good at it. And actually actually I don't think that that's made up. I think >> dogs can smell cancer.
>> CO they can smell cancer and co. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um the Wall Street Journal quest to use AI to find new drugs. Companies like Eli Liy and Ro are racing to build supercomputers to help fix the 90% failure rate in drug development.
It's a hit-driven business like Hollywood. If 10% of the drugs work, they're happy, but they'd like to improve that number.
um >> when I spoke at a um pharma company in Switzerland. Um >> why did you speak at a pharma company in Switzerland?
>> How do you be a googly drug?
>> So this was a while ago.
>> This was the opposite of that.
>> Uh and I didn't kind of realize that the pharma industry is entirely an industry of molecules, right? Find a molecule and does it do what we hope it'll do and test it. and the testing. Um, you know, one of the I don't know where it is in the industry now, but because it's a secretive industry, because the expenses are so high, one of the things that would make the industry, the field so much more efficient is if they would they would share all their failures.
They're failures anyway, but instead they want their competitors to go through the same >> they want them to spend money to.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so we we slow down. A brief aside, I just realized when I was looking at this um large language model performance on clinicians thing, one of the authors is a visiting researcher at Deep Mind.
>> Well, they need some AI expertise on the on the team. Of course, >> I mean, >> but you're right. They may have an extra mind. Yeah. It's notable that always whenever you're reading about any sort of study, click through and scroll down to the conflicts of interests.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
>> Uh and furthermore, and Gary Marcus, we're going to bring him up again. He is the chief AI critic these days, uh says, and this is probably >> Do you think that's him or do you think that's Ed?
>> Ed's pretty big, but I I don't know.
Gary's the guy.
>> Gary's in the in AI alone, Gary's got a crown. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Ed's focused on finance. He's got lots of things that he >> but I think that Gary really is I mean I'm not sure I agree with Gary in 90% of the time but in this case I do agree with him. And he said the re real way to measure the success of AI in medicine is in patient outcomes. You know does the patient get better? Not did you do the diagnosis right but does it make a difference? And uh there is a uh he's quoting a nature article that uh says basically the same thing. And there is so far no evidence that improved patient outcomes so far. This weekend, uh, my mother called me and was kind of complaining that she had like been feeling kind of crummy lately and then described what are all the classic symptoms of a woman experiencing a heart attack or stroke. She's like, "Yeah, there's like pressure in my tendon." And like, so I was like, "Hey, you got to go to the ER right now cuz those are the signs of" and she's like, "I don't know.
I'm fine." Blah, blah, blah.
She hung up and she was like, "I'm going to go to sleep, but like I'll, you know, call you in the morning." And so I was freaking out. I speak to her in the morning and she's like, "Oh yeah, I did go, but it's because I like woke up an hour or two later and then I asked chat GBT and it said that I was experiencing all the symptoms of like associated with a stroke and I should go."
I was like I was like, "At least." Then she went and they were like, "You're fine." They did an EKG and a bunch of stuff. They made her wait 4 hours to do another. I'll be at the area that she lives in has terrible medical care, so I'm sending her to go get a >> followup somewhere else.
>> There's a lot of old people in that area. They should have good doctors.
>> Yes, they should.
>> Yes.
>> Uh >> it's amazing to watch what happens to old people in Florida. Not that your parents are that old yet, but but they you you you get ignored a lot. My grandmother 10 years or so ago uh died in a series of events that I mean she wasn't doing great to begin with but then she went in for you know some sort of heart related issues and the doctors accidentally uh gave her a bunch of Viagra instead of the medication that she was supposed to have and then she died.
>> How do you do that by accident? Oh my lord. It killed your grandmother. Wait a minute. I mean, that was one of the >> Viagra killed your grandmother is a very good headline. I'm just saying you could you could get that.
>> Viagra killed your grandmother. Yeah.
You know, >> how did that how what did they how I'm I'm I'm not lost.
>> I mean, I'll actually won't ask for details because it really is traumatized my mother and I at the time didn't ask I but I remember that being a >> I'll tell you I'll tell you what happened. part of it that I had wormed my way in my head that I remember for the last 10 years.
>> Viagra has uh been uh there's an there's a generic version of Viagra that is uh I don't know if it's an off label use. I think it is actually a labeled use for uh lowering blood pressure. So they >> that's what it was originally developed for. Right. That's what it was for.
>> They may have thought her blood pressure was too high and given her this generic which you would label Viagra. Um, but it's it's really intended for reducing blood pressure.
>> Yeah, I think it might have been that like they were trying to give it to her for some reason that was legitimate and related to that that she maybe I presume.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think it's that she was, you know, trying to get it up and it wasn't really working.
>> But grandma, >> I think that she >> wow. she'd been taking like some other medication that interacted poorly, but I know that that was one of the precipitating factors into her final episode. So, >> I think that's one where the the link batty headline maybe isn't the full story. I would hope. I mean, >> I'd hope, but you know, >> story I always think about when I think about that area's um >> medical prowess.
>> Yeah. Um speaking of uh laws, Maryland has become the first state to ban AIdriven price increases in grocery stores. How do they know?
>> Uh, that's a good question, but I mean, you've seen, we've talked about it before, the many stores now are using uh electronic readouts instead of price stickers, which gives them in theory a centralized place that they could change the price. Maryland uh is also banning Door Dash and other third party delivery services from using customers personal data to set higher prices. Now, that's important that higher prices because some people say this is a bad law because it doesn't mention lower prices and the fear is that what retailers will do is raise all prices and then lower them selectively instead of raising them selectively.
Uh the key is two customers should pay the same amount for the same item from the same retailer at the same time.
>> It's just that AI has such cooties now.
Yeah. I think some of that >> anything that has AI with it is is presumed to be bad, >> right? I mean, this is surge pricing, isn't it? Right. This is the same thing.
>> Yeah. But they've been doing that for ages.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh but what you don't want is is some sort of AI based redlinining like, oh, that person looks rich. Let's raise the price.
>> And I mean, that does seem to be what's happening on a lot of these apps. my one of my colleagues uh in December had done a really phenomenal investigation that found um that Instacart does or was doing this um for a lot of different foods. um they had kind of worked with they we gathered like a group of 30 or 400 different volunteers all throughout the US that used you know identical phones, identical account patterns, all loaded up Instacart at the exact same time of day, same sort of situation, same Wi-Fi connection, tried to control as many variables as possible and added the same items to their cart and they got wildly different prices.
>> Wow.
>> Just for the base price of a food item.
Then that's and you yeah you expect the I think a common expection people have is that expectation people have is that you will see this in surge pricing for something like Uber or maybe your delivery fees on something like Door Dash but not in the base food price itself.
>> And the airlines have been doing this forever, right? The airlines have always been doing this.
>> No two passengers pay the same for their ticket ever. Yeah.
Uh, by the way, it was Consumer Reports that complained that this law didn't go far enough that didn't cover lowering prices as well.
>> So, CR >> job CR doing the doing good work. But, hey, it's a first step and the law could be improved, of course. And California has made it legal for the California Highway Patrol to ticket a driverless vehicle.
>> How do they how do they stop it?
>> Ah, that's a good I guess you'd have to stand in front of it. I don't know. Uh, >> you put a code on it nose. You put a code on its nose.
>> There you go. It's very easy. They can They don't actually need to stop it.
They can uh just issue a notice of AV non-compliance. It goes right to the car's manufacturer.
All they need is the license plate.
>> Um, so I think that's probably due.
That's much much needed law. Yeah. Uh, we see Whimos on every corner in San Francisco now. Same in LA. And there have been issues. In fact, uh, going back to China, China has apparently banned driverless vehicles now because of in Wuhan, uh, a whole bunch of driverless vehicles caused a massive traffic jam and it couldn't be broken up. So, China is now pulling back on licenses for driverless vehicles.
>> Well, there's all kinds of videos from China of uh, >> automated vehicles doing crazy stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Those those delivery trucks or whatever they are, the automated.
Meanwhile, I am so dying for a Chinese car.
>> Oh, a BYD or something. They're way ahead of us. And this >> so far ahead of us.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, in fact, that was very controversial when Canada said, you know, we're going to let these Chinese cars sell into Canada.
>> I think if if these manufacturers, Gily and and BYD just brought a 100 cars into the US, the jealousy for them and pay whatever they got to pay in the stupid >> Oh, they can't even cross the border.
Doesn't matter.
>> They can't. Now, it's not just the tariff. They're legally not allowed.
>> Well, but I've read stories that people people are buying.
>> If you buy one in Canada, if you buy one in Canada, you cannot drive it into the United States.
>> I saw that people were buying them in >> How do they stop that?
>> Yeah. I don't at the border.
>> Do they just have somebody there with a gun that's going to shoot your car if you come across?
>> Yeah. You're just not allowed to cross the border if you're driving in a Chinese vehicle.
>> But who's policing that?
>> The Border Patrol. You think they don't do that? Do they they >> they look at the >> In addition to everything else you're doing as border culture, you're policing the nationality of a car.
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> No Italian cars either cuz they're just >> they're just bad vehicles.
>> Um well, the fact that the new Volvo EX60 or something new E60 uh looks really good and Gily owns Volvo, >> right? I'm starting to see things that that that are creeping in is a joint venture of of Chinese company and and >> and GM is trying to do a deal with Gil.
So, is it Giley or Gley or >> uh I don't know. I It's what's interesting, of course, is it's the uh big three automakers that don't want Chinese vehicles in this country and Tesla because it competes directly with them. They're afraid they would >> I haven't bought an Americanmade car in years and since I was 20.
>> And there are so many Chinese manufacturers, you know, there's so many Chinese manufact manufacturers. I see them in the Philippines. They're all over the place. And they're all different kinds of brands. There's so many. Well, and there's some very inexpensive ones. Uh, >> there's no cheap.
>> Yeah.
Uh, this was a controversy that we talked about yesterday on security. Now, we're going to do a couple more stories, then we'll, uh, take a break and get, uh, ready for, uh, Troy Hunt. If he calls in, Bonito, let me know. We'll, we'll immediately, uh, stop and, uh, and talk to him. Uh Google Chrome has started downloading a 4 gigabyte local model with every purchase. So if you install Google Chrome today, you will get without warning or ask permission.
>> You will get a 4 GBTE version of >> Does that mean the updates too?
>> Yeah. Now there is a way to stop it. you can go into browser uh flags and turn it off. This comes from the privacy guy.
Uh he's talking about and I think he's got a good point. At a billion device scale, Google Chrome of course the number one browser worldwide. Climate costs of this download alone are insane.
But uh you know we we actually had a little bit of a debate in the Club Twit Discord. Darrenokei who is a a developer and a AI advocate said no this is going to be great because then you will know a browser has a local model that you can call on. He says, "I have it's hard for me if a if a user misspells Dubai when they're entering their name and address in a form, but the local AI could quickly catch it and fix it without me having to write um you know, code.
>> It's going to be part of every browsering. It's it it's it's this is this is a bit of a of a get ready, you know, a moral panic of AI cooties."
>> Oh, in the White House now.
>> Don't you wish the Resolute Desk? That was Jeff Jarvis with moral panic.
>> I mean, it's going to be part of every browser and and it's oh, it's AI. It's downloading AI. Well, you're you're going to get functionality. That functionality is going to come from AI run locally and you want it to run locally. And so, I don't this is a hoo-ha. I I Yeah. Okay. Here's my first of all, I understand people just say 4 gigabytes. No. And it could have been two 22 gigabytes, but Google was able to squeeze the model down quite a bit. Uh you have local models on Android phones.
You have local models on iPhones. That's why they can do ondevice AI. So it's not unheard of. Uh I think my issue more would be this is Google kind of big footing web standards because you're >> and it doesn't seem like there's a way to opt out. Like I just scrolled through this article. It doesn't >> well if you go to browser colon slash flags and search for uh opt guide on device model.
>> Yeah. that I would argue is just what you're just describing doesn't seem like a way to opt out. You have to do some tinkering to >> it's not a it's not in the settings, but it is in the you know the flags, the browser flags. There are a lot more settings in there than they expose in settings. Uh Google clearly wants you to have nano uh on your machine. Well, I also bet that what they're doing then is they're going to add everybody who has Chrome to as another user in a in a way to this is going to boost their total user numbers for Gemini.
>> Well, and >> everybody who used Google search is now using Gemini.
>> I know >> they're going to quickly get to the point where a website will say, "Oh, you don't have Chrome. You don't have a local AI. I you need to use Chrome." And I think that's Google's point. This is how you get Chrome to 100% market share by putting in a new feature not approved by the W3C or by IETF uh that every website's going to or not every but many websites are going to say, "Oh, no, no, you need Chrome to use."
>> So my my Google Chrome on my brand new Neo is 1.4 gigs.
>> There will be I'll tell you where to look.
Um, actually I'm not sure on the on the Mac. There's a file named weights we gts weights.bin.
It's those are the the model. It's the model. Um, it lives at least in Windows in in that opt guide on device model folder. Here's the thing. Even if you delete it, not >> in my Mac, >> it returns it. Um, next update you'll probably get it. Um, this this machine is a week old.
Well, this just started.
>> Does it work even if you have, as I do, um, turned off all AI in the browser?
Ooh, I'm in the flags thing now. And I like whenever a setting thing starts with all caps in red, warning, experimental features ahead, exclamation point.
>> Danger, danger, >> danger. Will Robin, it's a lot of good stuff there, by the way, in the browser flags. It's always a good thing to work on. Um, so this guy actually verified it on a freshly created Apple silicon profile. So I think you are going to get it. Um, >> can't wait.
>> But I don't Yeah, I don't. Yes, I I think there's two sides to this. What I think Google should have done is is go to the web standards. See, Firefox has already said we're never going to do that. Valdi says we're never going to do that. Valdi is based on Chrome. That's the next question is will all Chrome uh brows Chrome based Chromium based browsers you do this as well? I don't know. Uh the privacy guy also points out this probably is unlawful in the uh EU and the UK because of GDPR and he also talks about the energy usage. If you uh if you the device per device cost of one nano push is 0.24 24 kilowatt hours per device per download and then multiply that times a billion devices. Uh that's a lot of bandwidth. That's maybe 24 gawatt hours of bandwidth or more.
Anyway, uh >> that's just in trying to >> Yeah, I don't I don't know if that's the real uh >> talk about Tik Tok and bandwidth hours, you know, just >> I think you're going to see local models everywhere. You see local models on every phone now.
>> You're going to want it because you don't want stuff going back up into the cloud. So, you can't have it both ways here, >> right?
>> Uh, the creator of the This is fine art, the me, remember you know that meme with the dog sitting >> remember it? It's there still every day in the cafe and it's on fire. This is fine says, I didn't know this, but a guy named Casey Green created the comic. He says in a blue blue sky post there, he saw an ad in a subway station featuring this is fine, but it's from an AI company saying my pipeline is fine. and he says, "You stolen. I that's mine." Uh I I got bad news for you, Casey. I think uh I think this is uh I don't know. Can a Can the memeification of a work of art suddenly make it a public domain? I don't think so.
>> Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I'm shocked that that I guess this is what happens when you work at a startup, but I I'm shocked that they got to the point of placing ads in the subway without anybody being like, "Oh, fair use.
copyright.
>> Well, you have to be rich enough to sue.
You have to be rich enough to sue. So, >> yeah, that's right. Um, he says, "Not anything I agreed to." He said that ad was stolen at like AI steals. He says, "Please vandalize it when you see it."
And it looks like this particular one was in fact >> the company said, "We love his work.
We're going to we're contacting him."
Somebody didn't know what they were. I think it's yeah it if it's a meme you might assume that well it must be uh public now right >> except commercial use it's just like >> right >> um okay now here's the weird Google's deep mind has taken a stake a minority stake but a stake anyway in an online game called Eve Online very popular I don't know if it's still do people still play Eve Online Bonito >> I'm pretty sure they do but whoever does is like super hardcore.
>> Yeah, that's that's been around for quite a while. Um, but presumably the point is to uh use it for AI training.
The Icelandic company Ferris Creation or Fenris Creations uh creator of Eve Online um they say Eve Online requires skill that AI has not yet fully mastered. Oh, this is a director at Deep Mind. Such as long-term planning and continual learning. And so by training AI on Eve Online, we can make AI better. I think that's kind of interesting. Now, I don't think the players of Eve Online are going to be too thrilled about it.
>> It might become a story point because you know what happens in Eve Online is like the story evolves through the actual people playing the game. So, it might become a villain. It might become a villain or something.
>> Oh, that's one way to pay to protest.
Huh.
And finally, I thought this was a great story. This is worthy of a Paris Martino article uh in Wired magazine. Uh I'll give credit uh to the author uh Todd Feathers.
Uh he couldn't land a job interview. Was AI to blame? It's about a uh a medical school resident who Chad Marky who was trying to find placement in a hospital once his residency completed had applied to many places got not one interview not one uh acceptance of his application and started to think maybe AI is involved.
He had taken a number of leaves of absence in the process of getting his uh med school training. By the way, um great references, great grades. There was no reason why you wouldn't want to hire this guy. Uh he was applying to psychiatric programs. Um but he had voluntarily taken three separate leaves of absence. And in his record, it didn't say why. It turns out it was for medical reason. His theory, and he spent a lot of time and wrote a lot of Python code to test it, was that AI screening tools used by hospitals were screening him out because of those uh timeouts.
He would spend, according to uh Todd Feathers writing it wired, the next six months writing emails, re research papers, legal requests, and a constant stream of Python code trying to peer inside an AI screener that he believes was keeping him from getting a job. It's a great story.
Highly recommend it. It's kind of a detective story. Eventually, while he wasn't able to prove that the screener was screening him out, he got some evidence that uh the taking those leaves of absence without a good reason might in fact be uh knocking his applications out of the running. So, he changed his record to say it was for a medical reasons and he immediately got a job offer and is going to Colombia uh the Presbyterian Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in their psychiatric program.
So, uh maybe he was maybe he was right.
It does talk about a tool um an AI residency application screener built by the company Metacratic.
Um >> but again I'm not sure that's that's an AI thing. I think resumes.
>> Yeah, it doesn't need to be.
>> I would say if there's unexplained >> breaks in a resume, >> right, >> it's going to raise a question mark and if I have a hundred good resumes, it's not going to make the top of the pile.
Sorry.
>> Yeah. A lot of hospitals said well was one example Yale New Haven said told Wired that they had tried Cortex the tool but stopped using it. Um two residency programs at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center used it before program directors reviewed the applications but they stopped using it because they preferred their own screening methods. Uh one of the things uh Chad found is that people's grades would change from moment to moment in the in the screening tool. That's not good. Cortex said, "Oh, yeah, that's because the the the page refresh didn't happen." Yeah, that's the ticket. Then >> in the academ we have tons of search committees and they're as bad as any AI.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. He got a job and that's the good news. It's a good story, too. He really did some detective work. Well, hey, Troy Hunt has joined us. He is on the line from the Gold Coast of Australia. Uh we will get to Troy Hunt, the creator of have I beenpone.com and talk to him about his AI bot Bruce right after this. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Trusted Tech. If you're managing Microsoft 365 for your company, you are responsible for both the cost and whether it's set up correctly. Now, I got to warn you, on July 1st, Microsoft is raising prices. So, any mistakes in your licensing are about to get more expensive. Most companies using Microsoft 365 are either overlicicensed, paying for unused seats and features, or underlicicensed, creating compliance and security risks. It can even be both. The result is wasting thousands, sometimes tens of thousands a year on tools your team doesn't use, or worse, missing critical security features you thought you had. Trusted Tech helps businesses understand what they have, what they actually need, and how to lock in the right setup now before costs go up.
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We thank them so much for supporting intelligent machines. Now, back to the show. Well, Troy, it is such an honor and a pleasure to have you on the show.
Uh, of course, we're all big fans. Have I Been Pawned is an internet institution. And I was saying earlier that you're it's kind of like that XKCD article about open source projects where the entire enterprise world is suspended on a little brick written by one developer in the middle of nowhere. You and your wife Charlotte are in fact, you know, kind of the sole runners of Have I Been Pone? Is that right? Or do you have a team now?
>> Oh, well, we we have one more person. We have uh we have one developer in Iceland who's a a good friend, similar sorts of background, someone we just know really well and trust, but it's it's really just the three of us now.
>> What a great story. So, you were at Fizer. Uh you've been a developer for many years.
>> Uh and you as was this just a hobby project you created?
>> Yeah, it was because I uh I was there for 14 years. Uh and I started there as a developer in 200 uh 2001. And the same thing happened to me that happens to every software professional in a big enterprise. They say, you know, you're doing good, but if you want your career to progress, you've got to stop doing that and you got to become a manager.
And that's kind of sucked my soul because I it's a shame because I liked code, but I also liked money. So, what are you going to do?
>> It's a it's Sophie's choice. It's not an easy thing to decide. So, what did you decide?
>> Well, I did both. I stayed at Fizer. I started a hobby project for fun. Uh and I started building out an independent life uh initially doing online training for Pluralsight and started to create I guess a life of my own and then they very kindly made my job redundant uh and gave me a couple years worth of pay to leave which was fantastic timing.
>> Oh that's good actually. That's a good thing. Uh and then that sort of coincided I understand with a big breach at Adobe.
>> Yeah. So Adobe October 2013 was the catalyst for Have I Been Pone. I started with with that one and a few other really little ones and it was pretty much just all Adobe and a a sprinkling of other things and I thought, "Oh, you know, this will be this will be fun. A few of my friends will use it. It'll never be serious, which is why I gave it such a stupid name." Uh, and then then it just became popular and it just kept going.
>> It is funny because as of all the over all the years I've referred people uh to have I been pawned, I always have to say P W N. I have to say if you don't know what pawned means, you weren't on the internet at a certain time also though.
>> But it becomes a fun discussion point because people like look now that it's big and you're taking it seriously should you change the name so that people don't think it's just you know some idiotic project and I was like no it's it's a conversation piece now I like >> how how big is the database now?
>> So in terms of raw uh records that's probably the the best number to refer to. What's it say on the front page?
It's changing every day at the moment.
17.5 billion records.
>> Wow.
>> That consumes and that consumes about 1 and a/4 terabytes worth of data. But you know the only thing we load is email addresses. So 7 12 billion instances of an email address in a breach which then has something like 6 billion something unique email addresses and then each one just on average appears a few times.
>> Wow.
>> So you don't record any further data about that? You're just saying this email address has been compromised.
>> Yeah. Correct. Correct. And there's, you know, there's a part of me which is like if we had the other data there and people could literally like take back control, you know, they could see what was my date of birth and my home address and everything that was exposed. It's like that would be great from an empowerment perspective, >> but the the risks involved in that of sitting on all of that data, not to mention the processing effort. Email addresses are easy. We can reg x out email addresses, but yeah, addresses, phone numbers, and things that's hard.
>> You do do something that's really great.
There's a and I don't know if people are aware of it. I mean, they often go just to the front page, enter their email address, and say, "Oh, yeah, my my email address is out there." But there's a passwords uh feature as well, which I really like. And I think it might scare people if they click that link at the top of the page and enter a password.
I'll just put in monkey 123. That maybe they're giving you their password, but that's not the case, right?
>> No. So, we got a really cool anonymity model behind that. Uh so when you enter that password it gets hashed client side and then there's only five characters of the hash that get sent off to the service and the service comes back with with hash suffixes and it try and mixes or matches it all up. Anyone who looks at the dev tools can see what happens.
uh and we actually that API that sits behind that is now hit 18 billion times a month because lots of organizations >> have built this into their registration flow because what we're trying to do is is say look when someone comes to sign up um the BBC for example is a big user if you try and sign up on the BBC and you're using that password even if you capitalize a letter and then you put a number and an exclamation mark at the end and make it secure if it's been seen before it's going to be higher risk. So yeah, we do 18 billion checks a month on that at the moment.
>> That's amazing. And this is such a service, such an important service uh to us as uh internet users. We're very grateful to you. Do do you how do you make money on this? Well, for a long time it didn't was the first easy answer. Uh and now it does in a few different ways. So there's some one password product placement which you'll see on on the front page. uh that came along after people would search for themselves and they they'd get a result and it's like hey you've been in five data breaches good luck and then they're like what do I do and obviously having strong unique passwords was a key thing there and I had an existing relationship with them they actually bake have I been pawned into one password as well so if you're a one password user that will tell you if your stored passwords have been in breaches or your email address has been in breaches so that was a nice relationship uh and then if you're an organization monitoring a larger domain.
Uh you then need to pay to get access to the results for that domain and there's just a API key/ dashboard there. Uh and that's uh that's pretty much it.
>> So uh do other password managers use your database? I mean uh I've seen other password managers warn me that my my password's been seen in a breach. How do they know that?
>> Well, there's a there's a bunch of different services out there that that do similar things. I I think I honestly don't pay much attention. I certainly didn't look at it before I built this.
Uh for things like the the password search feature, we've made all that data free and open source as well. So there's about a billion unique passwords. So any password manager is free to download all of that and integrate it and they may use it. I don't know. That's that's kind of the joy of it. We we literally just don't know.
>> That's awesome. So the one of the reasons I wanted to have you on intelligent machines we talk about AI is uh is Bruce. You want to just tell us a little bit about Bruce?
>> It hasn't been Bruce's finest day today.
>> Oh, no.
>> Oh, what did what did Bruce do?
>> All right. I I actually tweeted this only about an hour ago. So, Bruce is is drafting responses to Zenes tickets. And he drafts this response today uh for someone asking about a subscription. And Bruce is like, uh, the subscription starts at uh US $3.50 a month. And I'm like, where did that number come from?
This is Bruce's exact words. He says, "Honestly, I don't know. It didn't come from the markdown file with the pricing, uh, which has a correct figure, and it didn't come from our lessons markdown file. It's a hallucinated number. I made it up." He literally said, "I made it up." So, >> there you go.
>> But he's honest about being >> He admits it. That's a >> Then he doubles down because then there's another message as well and he's like, "Yeah, it's all uh it's all hallucination." But I mean, this is why everything is human approved before it goes out because even stuff that should be really really simple and clearcut, he can make mistakes on. And if we represent a price to someone, even if it's the bot, I think we're kind of obligated then to stick to it.
>> Yep.
>> I've got a fundamental question, Troy.
Um because I've long thought that I'll put it this way. What if we presumed that all of our emails, all of our um social security numbers, all of our addresses, all of our ages, all of our mother's maiden names is just out there.
And um so rather than concentrating on the on the leak side, the other side of security, uh what should be done to make none of that matter?
>> Yeah, it's it's a good question and and I think that's the safe assumption at this point in time. You know, I find now we'll have some major new data breach and I'll do a lot of press and they'll say, you know, what should people do now? It's like, well, they they should do all the stuff that they should be doing anyway. Like this doesn't change the fact that you should have strong unique passwords and and all the rest of it. But I think a good question, Jeff, in so far as it comes back to things like how do we do particularly knowledge based authentication? So, I got uh I got invited to speak at Congress uh in the US, the big important Congress, not the one here, some years ago.
>> You have a nicer Congress than we have.
Uh yeah, I I'm not even sure what we've got to be honest. Uh but anyway, the the premise of that hearing was how do we do authentication uh using knowledge based information in in a post-b breach world because if you know social security numbers in the US are a great example.
They're they're meant to be secret. You give it to all of these different organizations. They're very very hard to change if you need to later on. So why are we using this as a form of knowledgebased authentication? Why are we using dates of birth as a form of knowledge based authentication? You know, we we literally we have here and I'm sure you do over there as well >> time and time again. A bank, a telco will say, "We just need to make sure you are who you say you are. What's your date of birth?"
>> And you're like, >> it's the thing in all the data breaches.
It's also the thing that I tell my friends cuz I like cake and presence.
And the bunch of people put it on their social media. So I think the bigger fundamental question here is is how do we do knowledge based authentication or how do we do identity verification being conscious that all of the KBA stuff we've got is either compromised or easily discoverable these days.
>> So how do we do it? I mean this is one of the fundamental problems uh of the internet is is authentication.
>> Well you give the government all your data and then you have a government identification >> and everybody loves that and there's no problems with it. Right.
>> It's kind of what kind of what Estonia does. is they have a >> Yeah. So, is Estonia in better shape than than the rest of us?
>> It's a good question. They're a little bit outside my usual remitt. Uh I don't think they're probably going to be much worse to be honest, but >> they they created a national digital ID, but the uh the the uh encryption the crypto used on the ID was cracked uh was flawed actually and so they had to retract the card and reissue it. So, even you know something as as interesting >> India has national ID as well.
>> Yeah, it's it's always problematic. What about uh Sam Alman's uh iris scanning world thing? What about >> you think the orb will save us?
>> The orb? Yeah.
>> But I think every one of these services, if you're being entirely objective about it, we're part we're far better off doing this at a at a federal government level and and in a perfect world, we'd all implement some sort of uh basic structure that we could replicate across the world as well. We're better off doing this uh at a at a federal level from a government than any individual tech company, but nobody trusts the government, even though they have most of the data anyway. I mean, we we got digital driver's licenses a while ago.
And I I did a talk at one point and I remember a lady saying, you know, I I really don't trust the government with my data to do digital driver's licenses.
I'm like, who do you think has all your driver's license data already? Like, they're the ones who issue you the driver's license. They have this. They just print it on a card at the moment and send it to you. So, you know, there's that. And of course, we're now in an era of of increasing age verification all around the world as well. So, how do we do age verification, identity verification, and maintain privacy? And they're all hard problems.
>> Yeah. Uh, and it doesn't sound like we have any obvious uh solution. I don't think anybody in the United States wants to trust our government to identify us, but they already know all that stuff.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. We've uh we were the first country in the world here in Australia to roll out a minimum age of 16 for social media. It rolled out in December last year. Uh which I found fascinating cuz I I had a son who turned 16 just before that and a daughter who turned 13 just before that. So she just got social media and now she spends her days figuring out which social media platform she can game to create another account on.
>> Exactly.
>> And how long it lasts. Uh so it's just sort of fascinating to see all this roll out of the moment. It's just teaching kids to be hackers and of course it's been very good for VPN companies in Australia as well.
>> Yeah, there's there's that we've uh look it's like a lot of the world I mean the UK is doing similar things. A lot of Europe's doing similar things. I think you've got various states in the US at least proposing as well. And I mean at at its heart there are there are elements of truth to this as well. We we had to have a chat with our 13-year-old daughter the other day saying some of that stuff you really shouldn't be posting on social media. Like this is exactly why our government is saying you should wait a few years. Please don't continue to prove me wrong that you're mature enough to have it. But there is an element of truth to delaying access to a lot of aspects of social media for for children.
>> Are you concerned uh you know lately the one of the biggest creators of breaches has been shiny hunters which are I think chiefly social engineering uh techniques. very good at social engineering, but are you concerned about AI generated attacks, AI generated breaches? Is that something that's it seems like increasing?
>> Yeah, look certainly very concerned about the potential, but I mean Shiny Hunters is a great example where these are kids or at least teenagers uh when they eventually get arrested, which will happen if they keep this up. Uh we'll see some of them have been. Yeah, >> some of them have been uh you know, one of them was one of them who did the power schools uh hack and then successfully ransom them. He's just been sentenced to I think four years. He's 19 years old.
>> Started when he was 14. So they'll all be that demographic.
>> But you know, they're doing they're doing fishing. They're literally doing voice fishing. These are kids or very young men calling up telephone numbers talking to humans. Uh it it it's working very well just with humans. We're all worried about the potential of AI, but I'm honestly yet to see data breaches of this nature escalating because of AI.
They're escalating because of the likes of Shiny Hunters managed to find the right tools and techniques to apply over and over again very successfully. And they've just been very good at getting into a lot of Salesforce stuff. They recently had an ad they're looking for female voices to impersonate mothers and wives because they only have a bunch of young guys right now.
>> But I mean, that's an interesting partial answer, isn't it? I mean, how much like voice manipulation software is they're out there and they're still saying we'd like a human in order to do this and these guys are the experts.
>> Yeah, no kidding. Sad to say. Um, so really the real problem, the real issue is you think training uh employees, training users to be smarter uh not to fall for this stuff.
>> Well, it's always a bit of a shared responsibility. I mean, I I fell for a fishing attack about a year ago now.
>> By the way, you were very brave to reveal that. I thought that was and and very I thought it was really important that you reveal it because >> that shows anybody can be bit.
>> Well, Leo got bitten recently with the entment of uh nice headphones.
>> But I was inspired by you Troy to reveal it to talk about it because I think the more we talk about our >> experience the more likely people are going to start saying oh yeah this could happen to me too. I think in in fairness, I had a bit of a luxury in so far as it's it's obviously a very teachable moment. Uh it opened my eyes a lot as well, but it was also very low impact data. It was what 15,000 I think email addresses from my mailing list. It wasn't sensitive PII. It wasn't a have I been pawned exploit or something like that. So, it was the sort of thing that without knowing it, I could actually get a lot of mileage out of uh without it being too impactful. But I just found it particularly ironic because I was I was in London at the time there the day before I'd been with the National Cyber Security Center in the government there having a meeting about how can we drive pass key adoption because pass keys are uh a fishing proof second forms authentication you know unlike OTPs which is what ultimately got fished for my Mailchimp uh account. Uh and we're like oh we need to come up with some good ways of demonstrating the importance of pass keys. And the next morning, uh, you know, here we are.
>> You did. You did. So, you've made it possible because you have APIs for, uh, uh, agents to use. Have I been pawned as well, right? You is there an M MCP server?
>> Yeah, there's an MCP service. So, Stefan's stood up an MCP server. So, we have that. And then, of course, we have all the API documentation, which the AI has actually also been very good at just uh, consuming and figuring out how to call APIs as well. So, we're sort of covering all their bases there.
>> And what do they do with it? Do they just look up, you know, breaches or >> Well, it's a question of what what services the API implements and the predominant ones there are searching for an email address which is rate limited depending on the key you have and searching for domains that you've already proven control of. Uh so if I was let's say I was back in FISA and I had a security role there, I might want to monitor fisa.com.
So now by using uh particularly an agentic AI bot that can go and not just run on demand uh commands but do things like monitor and query. I could just jump in there and say, "Hey, uh, yeah, tell me tell me how many senior executives have been in a data breach recently, and so long as I could map that data of senior executives, we're good." Or, or tell me how many people on our domain are in the last data breach, and tell me who has been in a sensitive data breach. And it just becomes like a conversation with your AI of choice when it can then interface between that discussion and the published APIs. and to do it securely with an API key that only gives you access to the things that you have the rights to.
>> That's great. Thank you for doing that.
I think that'll be very useful. I've been kind of on a campaign to get everybody to offer an API or I don't think you need an MCP, but just to offer some sort of interface that agents can use. Uh that's incredibly valuable. So, is Bruce retired or are you going to spank him or are you just going to go on?
>> Uh look, we're we're progressing very gradually with Bruce at the moment. Uh, normally Charlotte would would sort of do most the tickets. Uh, and she's like, can I just, you know, can I get Bruce to to answer questions and things? I'm like, well, it depends. Like, how many Markdown files do you want to edit? And and she's on tech. She does she basically does everything a nontechnical person can do, including all the formalities and legal things and accounting and then I do the rest. But unfortunately, Bruce at the moment is still a little bit technical. But we are refining it over and over and over again. And I'm understanding more about if we have particularly an agentic AI like openclaw literally running here on my desk. How does it actually query? You know what what's it actually doing?
Well, it's it's creating a bunch of Python scripts so we can version those.
We can see how they change over time.
It's creating a bunch of markdown files.
It's figuring out what are the right ones to send up to Claude when it actually needs to ask a question of an LLM to then format that in a in like a human readable response. So what we're trying to do is just get into the point where we're getting let's say we're getting 80% of the answers right. Uh and then we'll go okay what are the things that we can reliably answer accurately.
Uh so they'll be things that are very discreet uh and wellknown in their nature. How do I opt out? How do I remove my data? How do I cancel the service? Things like that. So my goal is to be able to really consistently reliably identify the things that have easy answers. let him run autonomously on those and then over the course of time we'll just have to see how much confidence we get in him to be able to answer more complex things which really it's just like a junior employee isn't it you know you hire someone you give them a little bit of >> little bit of leeway to begin with and then as you get confident and then you give you more and more rope >> yeah I was surprised at the hallucination actually that's a pretty bad mistake >> I guess you are too >> I don't even know what to do with that like I think part of what we realized is is uh obviously that the responses that come from Claude are only going to be as good as the input data and when he's starting a new context all the time because we don't want to have these like massive context with a whole chat history uh sort of go up to every request otherwise it burn gazillions of tokens if he starts a new context like what information do we need to feed into that context and at one point I said look what's the cost so for every ticket that you look at and you look for an answer for what is the And he's like, "It's seven cents."
>> Okay. Uh what if you what if you literally loaded every single piece of information you have and you sent that up on every context? He said, "Well, that's that's.7 cents."
>> Yeah.
>> Now, we get about 15 tickets a day.
Like, it's not a lot. Uh so, for the sake of 63 cents to save me having to go through things like this, I I'll wear that cost. I think that's a good ROI. So I think a lot of the challenge now is figuring out what is the right information to actually send up to that LLM so there's enough context that we can get good answers and the cost is trivial if we do it right.
>> Yeah. So you're using uh Opus 47 uh for this.
>> Yeah I think so.
>> Uh whatever was the latest about 3 weeks ago when I last >> that's 47. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times uh people choose sonnet or haiku for low uh low value uh stuff uh like maybe writing an answer but you would definitely I think you're right having the information there in the context is actually pretty important because it will make something up if it doesn't know.
>> Yeah. Y uh well so you anticipate more uses of uh AI in the future at Have I been pawned or >> Yeah, totally. Look, I think to be honest, like a lot of this has just been figuring out where does it make sense.
And I suspect that everyone listening to this is in a little bit of a similar boat where you see so much stuff you're flooded through tech media, mainstream media, walking down the street of AI stuff and everyone's trying to figure out like what's the bits that are actually useful versus the the bits that are misleading, deceptive, uh counterproductive in other ways. I think the applications like this with Bruce uh are very good. So there's definite value there. We're going to keep making that better. Uh the applications we've been looking at with the MCP server and with the ability to query data in a in a natural language, massive potential there because that opens up the audience of who can talk to the data and how easily they can do it. So you know we can now say one of our next tasks is we've got to implement an oorthth layer so that we can add these as as extensions or skills or whatever the term for each each LLM is. But we want your average normal person to be able to go into let's say they're using uh chat go in there add have been pone as a skill uh do the oorthth dance and then just be able to talk to their LLM and say you know tell me who in their organization's been breached and we want that to be people who don't need to know what an API is or don't need to know how to write code. I think there's enormous potential there particularly if we can start giving them sort of more I guess useful insights into what do you do now when you do find people in a data breach you know they'll there'll be another breach tomorrow that'll get loaded into have I been pawned how do we help people understand what they actually need to do to protect themselves and their organization after that so I think there's huge potential there >> you've written a roof phobia equality policy do you want to do you want to talk about that >> some people didn't like that.
>> I like it. I think it's good. You're asking uh people to treat the pot with tolerance, respect, and basic courtesy regardless of its artificial origin. Is that what you teach your kids?
>> Pretty much. It's like it's a little bit like teach in fact in many ways the whole bit is a little bit like teaching kids. Um it it is part tongue and cheek and and that should be obvious to anyone that reads the description here. And of course this was an AI generated policy as well. But that the context was we had a customer who was asking some questions on our support system who got really quite obnoxious and was getting very obnoxious at Bruce and kept asking for a human even though Bruce's answers were perfectly correct. And yeah, part of the joy of Bruce is that I can be there getting a coffee and I'll just pull out my phone and I'm in Telegram going, "Yeah, send the answer. It's fine." So the the effort on me is very very low.
And the effort on the person who was starting to argue with Bruce was very very high because they were typing full messages every time. So I'm thinking I can just do this all day long. You know, this isn't a hard problem for me. But I think that there's there's there's a grain of truth in here that people trying to say that they will not converse with an AI is possibly some sort of discriminatory counter pattern or antiattern. So we wrote this policy a bit tongue and cheek. It's not published anywhere other than on this this blog post here is a bit of fun. But uh particularly as we get larger and larger, our challenge is how do we still make it really just Charlotte and I that answer tickets uh and not have to hire other people. And the way we're going to do that is by having the likes of Bruce.
And that means that people need to be able to engage with Bruce and have a reasonable discussion with him and and treat him uh as as they would treat us.
And I think >> you have you have a bad precedent in in phone male jail. I'm the guy who's constantly screaming at the phone, agent, agent.
>> My wife says that also operator, you call agent, she calls for an operator.
>> And look, I I do the same. And and we do that when we're usually when we're getting bad answers. I think there's a bit of an edge case here. If you're getting an answer, which is a good answer, but it's an answer you don't like.
>> And and and if the and if the agent is authorized to solve your problem.
>> Correct. So yeah, I I think a lot of our challenge is how do we make sure he gets good answers and and what's not immediately clear when when Bruce signs off as Bruce the bot is that he he's Bruce the bot, but every response he's sending we as the human see. So we know that he's giving the right answers. He's just making it much faster for us to give not just the right answers, but much more comprehensive answers because he can obviously just spin out all that that content uh directly. So, I'm really hoping that when people read Bruce's responses, they're like, "Wow, that's actually a really good response." And we are getting a lot of thank you, Bruce, responses, which I think is quite funny.
>> That's nice. Thank you, Bruce. You're nice.
>> I wonder like is there a psychology around how people treat AI or how people treat bots? Like, if if you're abusive to a bot, does that does that say something negative about you as a person? Like, is it good human practice to be polite to the bot, to say thank you to the bot?
>> Yes, that's what I think. Although it is a debated much hotly debated topic. So let me just technically you sounds like are you running it on open claw? Are you running uh how are you running the agent?
>> Yeah that that's just running on open claw. So it's literally running on a Mac mini under my desk at the moment. Uh so >> you said when you said telegram I thought that must be then how you communicate with the agent is through telegram.
>> Yeah. So there's a telegram bot uh and this is just seems to be the path of least resistance to spin up open claw.
And look, I I didn't spin it up with the intention of of doing the Bruce thing. I originally span it up with the intention of can it help me analyze data breaches more quickly and discover, yeah, for example, what sorts of data classes are impacted. Uh, and I've spoken less about that online, but it it does do that. So, very often I'll say, look, there's data that's been published at this URL. Go and grab it and tell me what's in there.
I use it to uh it's got an X API key, so it monitors some lists I've got in X that have got people that that uh tweet a lot about data breaches. So I get I get 12-hourly reports here, all the most recent data breaches that have been out there that have uh been communicated. I ask it to do things like when there's a tweet that's got a screen grab of some forum. It's doing image recognition to try and figure out where the forum is.
So I'll say, you know, have a look at this tweet. Go find me the data. and it goes off to all the various forums and it finds the right content and and sometimes even follows the links through and downloads the data so I can analyze it. So it's doing a lot >> fantastic very helpful for you too to monitor I mean I I was wondering how you monitor all those breaches. So that's a real tool for that.
>> That's fantastic. And you're saying forms you mean the hacker forums with those breaches and up. Wow.
>> Yeah. Because this is where most of them appear. So, >> I've made this list public now, but on my Troy Hunt X profile, I've got a list called data breaches, and it's got, I think, 17 or 18 odd people in there. And in there, that's what's being monitored.
Let's have a look. 17 members on my data breaches list. Uh, that's what is being monitored by Open Core via the X API.
So, it's doing it the right way. It's not scraping it or anything. Uh, and then fantastic.
>> It's amalgamating that into a 12-hour report. I was doing it daily, but there are too many data breaches. So now, >> yeah, no kidding.
>> 4:00 a.m. 400 p.m. I got a report.
>> Wow, that's great.
>> Troy, it's been a honor to talk to you.
You you're such an important part of our uh our Yeah, thank you so much of our internet community and keeping us safe.
Have I been poned is is, you know, one of those sites like Wikipedia, like the internet archive that really show how amazing the internet can be. And I you know, how long you've been doing this?
Since 2012, you said >> 2013. 4th of December, 2013. Yeah.
>> Wow. Long time. Uh, and and do you anticipate doing it forever?
>> Well, eventually it's going to stop.
>> Bruce can take over. Bruce will take over.
>> I don't know when or why. There there is a a succession planning discussion we'll have to have at some time, but I still love doing it. I'm still fit and healthy and young enough to keep going. So, you know, we we'll see. The data breaches aren't going to stop. I know that much.
>> Well, thanks to you and thanks to Charlotte for the work you do. Have I been poned is amazing and we >> Awesome. Well, thank you very much everyone.
>> Thank you Troy Hunt. Take care.
>> Cheers.
>> That's Troy Hunt. Have I beenponed.com our picks of the week coming up in just a bit. I just want to put in a little plug for a little thing we like to call club twit. Uh if you believe in our mission here, which is to give you the best information without fear or favor, without obligation, without any entanglements with the companies we cover, if you think it's important to have an independent journalistic support for information, uh a source for information, I think it would be nice if you would support us doing that. That's our mission and we believe in it and I hope you do, too. I hope you enjoy the shows we make. And if you haven't yet considered joining Club Twit, I'd like you to think about it now.
twit.tv/clubtwit.
There are benefits. It's 10 bucks a month. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You get access to the Club Twit Discord. Uh you get all the special programming we do coming up. The Google IO keynote and the Apple WWDC keynote.
We are not going to put those out in public. We can't. We get taken down if we do. So, that will be for the club members only. And of course, there's lots of other programming. Our AI user group, which I'm pretty much thinking about doing twice a month now. There's so much good stuff that's coming up on Friday. Uh I think it's a worthwhile expenditure. I hope you do, too. Uh of course, we continue to offer almost everything we do free to everybody. I think that's important, too. But if you want to support what we do, if you want to support independent podcasting, uh join the club, twit.tv/club twit. We would really like to have you.
On we go uh with the waning hours of the show and our picks of the week. I have one Paris for Gizmo.
>> And look who's right here. RIGHT HERE.
>> HELLO, GIZMO.
>> Does Gizmo ever type on your keyboard?
Uh, she does not type on it, but she, as I've been working a lot this week, has been obsessed with sitting right in front of my keyboard, rubbing all over the scarlet, and then lays in a way that she >> her tail and feet hit the top part of my keyboard.
>> Never a good thing when the cat does your writing for you.
>> This is an app called Furwall.
It is for Macs, sad to say, but you use a Mac. And it it what it does is it watches the camera locally for a kitty cat. And when it sees a kitty cat on the keyboard, it drops those keystrokes so that he's not actually doing any writing at all. Open source. It's GitHub. It's a silly little app, but I thought you might enjoy it. Uh, keep >> I think what I need to get actually is one of those fake laptops or keyboards and just have her sit on it.
>> See, I I don't think those work cuz I think she's smart enough to know what you're paying attention to. That's why she's there.
>> No, you're right. She is. Because the thing that she's discovered in the last week is that again, as I've shown before, I use this insane system that looks like the bottom of a mat because I want to unax. I want to she see and she >> she thinks you're petting >> tries to she's figured out that if she sits on this key right here it locks my computer the lock button >> and she starts doing this when I'm in meetings. She's done it like three times this week.
>> Cats are such brats. I see there and they're smart. They're not conscious, but they are smart. H.
>> Well, so what I've learned this week is if your cat locks your >> laptop while you're in a Zoom meeting, the Zoom meeting will carry on and people can still see you even though your computer's tackling.
>> You know, >> that's something to keep in mind, too.
>> Something to know.
>> One other pick. This is datacenter.fm.
If you want to know what it sounds like to be in a busy data center, just press the power up button. You can increase the number of servers. You can You're not hearing it because I'm not P. I'm I'm sparing you the sound. Increase the GPU load. Increase the staffing. Turn up the cooling. Uh turn on the gas turbine generators. And you're going to find out what it's like to be inside a data center. This is from >> Is that a sentience gauge? Is that a sentience gauge? Well, apparently I haven't done it, but if you if you if you turn it up high enough and run it long enough, the sentience gauge will hit and I don't know what happens after that. Um, >> it is actually honestly a kind of calming sound. I've got it going on right now.
>> Oh, my sentience is going up.
>> It's going up.
>> I've turned cooling off is what I did.
>> Oh, maybe that's the key.
>> The brain requires >> is the uh key to sentience, it seems.
>> Data center.fm.
That's just a I think it's just a little art project, but it's kind of a fun one.
>> Local water drained.
>> Uh yeah. Yeah. There is that where Oh, there's DB. Local water drained. So, we're now going to get a little hotter and the sentience is going to go up because we don't have any uh cooling and then pretty soon a containment breach and it's all going to go to hell. Keep watching. I'm sure something will happen. Just like watching Paradise.
>> Yes. Oh, what is Paradise?
>> Oh, it's very good.
>> Is it good? You like it? What is it?
>> Uh, it's a show about uh the destruction of the planet and a secret uh bunker town.
>> Oh, I want to watch that. Oh, that sounds good.
>> AI and quantum ends up in there and all kinds of things.
>> And there's one other thing I know you're This is also for you, Paris. I know you're a movie buff. Have you ever wondered if the movie you're going to go to if they'll is there anybody in the theater?
This only works with AMC uh movies because I guess AMC somehow publishes this information online. It's called empty screenings. About 10% of AMC movie showings sell zero tickets. This site finds them. You >> dang the AMC in Kips Bay is not doing well today.
>> So you enter your zip code, Riley Waltz.
Nice job. Uh you enter your zip code and we'll find a empty theater near you.
>> Zero people at the Met Opera. Eugene Onagen on 2026.
>> Oh, that's funny. Oh, I'm sorry. AMC >> Paris Martino. No, that was three picks.
I I overdid it this week. You >> Well, it's good because I've got only got one pick and it's uh a movie I'm going to see tomorrow called The Python Hunt that is produced by Lance Oppenheim, the director I like so much that we spoke about earlier. and it's out >> nationwide this Friday.
>> It is about It's a documentary about the Great Florida Python Hunt, which is I believe a weekend in Florida where I'll I'll learn about it tomorrow. Um where here, let me get the description right.
It is. Every year the Florida government invites the public to compete in an invasive python removal contest in the Everglades. For 10 nights, an eclectic group of hunters confront the dangerous terrain, nocturnal creatures, and their own desires.
>> Wow. This was a Simpsons episode.
>> Now, what was it?
>> You're going to see this in an MDAMC theater. Where are you?
>> No, I'm going to the uh premiere tomorrow.
>> Oh. at the Village East and going to hear a Q&A with a director and it'll be lovely.
>> Fun.
>> Uh, by the way, uh, Christina Warren, one of our hosts on Macreak Weekly, was at the Chat GPT 5.5 launch party last night that Sam Alman put together with the help of Chat GPT. I'm sure it was weird. Uh, and we will have a report uh, next Tuesday on that premiere. So, neither of you went went to the Met Gala, but at least you're going to something uh culturally important, the Python hunt.
>> I did go see Devil Devil's words, too.
So, >> how did you feel about how it represented Compton?
>> You know what's funny about that? I think I saw a statistic that said 90% of the tickets sold are to women for that movie. Yeah.
>> Well, I've discover I haven't been to a movie in >> No, I want to see it. I loved the first one.
>> Oh, yeah. You should. You should go anyway. Um, but I've discovered that near me there's there's half price Tuesday.
>> Oh, first.
>> So, it was old women. Yes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You got to go at 4:30. But, uh, >> all day. All day. Tuesday.
>> All day. Half price Tuesday.
>> Including the popcorn is half.
>> What's half price? $10.
>> Um, yeah. For the uh one with the super sound. Otherwise, it was 780 or something.
>> That's half price. That's so sad.
>> Yeah. Oh my. All right. Well, that's Paris's pick. What do you have? What do you have?
>> Well, there's just things to mention here. I want to mention that the South Africa withdrew its AI policy after it was found to be written by AI. I just want to throw that in. Um, >> that's fitting.
>> Uh, I got to mention, did you see the story about the Pope and customer service?
>> No.
>> So, >> I saw the headline.
>> Oh, it was it's superb. New York Times story. So the pope uh was trying to get, you know, get access to his bank account in Chicago and he went through and gave him all the all the personal information, gave him >> the pope and they said, "You got to they said, "You got to show up in person."
Chicago, I I can't. And uh well, he finally finally went around. He said, "Would it mean anything to you if I told you that I'm Pope Leo?" And she hung up.
>> Oh jeez. Of course she did.
>> Of course she did. Of course she did. Uh all right. I want a little a little >> nice try >> things about memories. Uh ask jeeves ask.com is dead gone forever. I didn't know it was still alive. It's like that Canadian.
>> Oh yeah, who knew, right?
>> Um I'm angry as usual. The News Media Alliance, which is the the the the cruddy lobbyists for the dying old media industry, is going after Common Crawl uh for no good reason and uh saying that they're allowing their precious content to be taken by AI companies. while they're they're doing a crawl. And then finally, we also have uh our beloved Internet Archives has released a wonderful book uh about the vanishing culture and what's being taken down by these media companies that are trying to control uh history.
>> They're they're afraid that AI will train on their content if it's uploaded to the internet archive. They're blocking the internet. Yeah.
>> Right. Right.
>> And uh Jeez Louise. Uh, >> yeah.
>> And finally, line 158, you may have to use Google Translate on this. I hope you can get to it, is uh, see if you can click on that, Leo.
>> A giant Gutenberg Bible page.
>> This is the sketchiest looking link you've ever put in here.
>> It's It's because it's off my email.
>> Should I translate it to English?
>> Yeah, translate to English. So, >> I, by the way, I'm finding the translations have gotten much better.
>> Super, by the way, Google Translate is 20 years old this week.
>> Yeah. Happy birthday. Um, so this is the largest >> That's a page.
>> It's a printed page.
>> The world's largest print.
>> 5 m wide by 7.2 m high.
>> It was made by uh assembling um 12 computer mil wooden plates were assembled to recreate the printed form.
The printing plates were first inked by hand to exert the necessary pressure on the extra exceptionally large printing form. A car then drove slowly over the printing.
for a second printing. The public also participated.
>> I hope it was >> visitors uh uh uh well it's Germany or France walked onto the printing plates together, >> isn't it? I know it's the >> Strawber Well, it's gone back and forth a few times.
>> So, uh ironic to me that that it's it's hung up in a um Catholic cathedral in Strawburg considering what Gutenberg wrought in the Reformation. But >> I mean, it all comes around eventually.
Wow. Oh, it's I like that it I like that the description of it is the world's largest printed Bible page because they're not, you know, counting out that there's a a larger page that's been printed out or something.
>> Sears catalog, but yeah.
>> Yeah, >> I think it's the largest printed page ever. I love it that was actually printed with a car.
>> With a car.
>> Yeah, that's >> a car and some visitors.
>> They call it Fiat Press, not letter press, but it's the same thing. It does the same thing. Yeah, that's amazing.
>> In a sense, it wasn't inked by hand. It was inked by wheel and foot.
>> Yes. So, it is the anniversary. It is the anniversary of the Gutenberg Bible.
What is how what's the anniversary? May 9th?
>> They don't know.
>> They say it's to celebrate the anniversary, but >> it's made up. It's It's like Gutenberg's birthday. They just call it 1400.
They're not sure. It's four years either one way or the other.
>> It's like Christmas. We don't know. It's just a guess.
>> Uh, very nice. Very nice.
>> Yeah. I don't know who does my translation. I think it's Cogi doing the translation.
>> Oh, okay. I use Google, of course.
>> Yeah.
>> I think it's quite I think they've gotten really good. They used to be terrible.
>> Well, it's that that's because of of large language models. Yeah. That's of AI.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh it changed all that's that's that's transformers. It started with with um >> um So now, well, we might as well go this one too. The the what's new with Google Translate. Now you have a pronunciation tool that we've been asking for.
>> Nice. Good.
>> Which we use often on the show.
>> I can now say Google.
>> Right. Well, let's see what it says. Um, they they point out that they've been using AI, machine learning, and translate since the beginning.
>> Yep.
>> Translate supports 95% of the world's population.
>> Wow.
>> Uh, one more than 1 billion users ask translation each month. One trillion words a month.
>> That's a lot. It is lot of words indeed.
>> Well, speaking of a lot of words, that's the end of this show.
>> Uh, we're not sentient yet, but we are conscious of your time. And >> says who? How do you know? Are you sure?
>> We can't prove it.
>> Can't prove it. We can't prove it.
That's true. Uh, that's Paris. All >> my butt hurts. That's that's that's consciousness.
>> Paris, for the first time ever, is sad that the show's over because now she has to go back to work.
It's really upsetting actually.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh this was your break I'm sorry to say.
Um Paris writes for Consumer Reports is working on a massive very very very important piece which we will uh talk about when >> we know when we think it might come out.
>> I can't say.
>> Oh, it's that secret. It's very exciting.
>> There's just, you know, there are things I'm allowed to say and things I'm not allowed to say. And one of the things I'm not allowed to say is a publish date. All right, that's good to know.
Um, anyway, Paris, great to have you. Thank you.
>> Great to be here.
>> And Gizmo, Jeff Jarvis, professor of journalistic innovation at uh he's now at Montlair State University and at Sunni Stonybrook. His book >> indeed, >> uh, Hot Type, which is just awesome because I read a pre-release version of it, will be out in August and you can pre-order it right now at jeffjarvis.com.
And it's not just about uh the line of type, it also is about postcript. So it's goes into goes right right to the modern times.
>> Yes.
>> Uh we do this show every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly. That's 2:00 p.m.
Pacific, 5:00 p.m. Eastern, 11:00 a.m.
Hawaii time.
>> After the booze, we always check in whether they're on the booze yet.
>> Yes. As soon as the whiskey segment begins, you know, intelligent machines can't be far behind. That's kind of an inside joke for people who watch live.
anybody else is going to be puzzled by that. Uh you you don't have to watch us live, but you can. Uh we stream it, of course, in Discord, but also YouTube, Twitch, Tik Tok, uh not Tik Tok, x.com, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick. We can't do Tik Tok. It's too complicated for us.
We're we're limited in our abilities. Uh after the fact on demand versions of the show at twit.tv.
We have audio and video at our website.
There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to the video. a great way to share clips with everybody. Uh, also uh you can subscribe to it in your favorite podcast client and if you do leave us a great review and Paris will read it dramatically at some point.
>> Honestly though, if you haven't reviewed the show before, go on Apple Podcast and do because the only person who has reviewed the show in the last five months was a real stinker about it. And I think >> that's terrible. We should do some >> It costs us, by the way, some advertisers will not buy ads on a poorly reviewed show. They think it's real or something. So, leave us a nice review.
Help us help us out. I should also mention, I don't talk about it enough, but you can comment on any show. We don't put comments. We don't pay attention to comments on YouTube and Twitch and elsewhere, but uh we do pay attention to the comments in our Club Twit Discord. Every show has a little forum section in the Discord. We also have an open to the public uh forum um called twit.com community and I don't mention it enough and I would like to because it's a really great place to converse about every episode or anything else on your mind. Uh that's open to all. Just mention that you heard it on intelligent machines. I'll be sure to get you in twit community. We even have our own mastadon instance. Uh I am still a masttoas fan. Maston fan. I believe in the fediverse. Uh that's at twit.social.
That is also open to the public. And again, in both cases, uh, you've got to, uh, say that you listen to Twit for me to let you in. I want it to be Twitter listeners. I also, there's something weird happened on the Mastedon, uh, last week. Somehow, I don't know how this happened. There must be a bug in Mastadon. I normally have to approve every account. some AI generated accounts got through without my approval and I was notified by ifas that they are Russian bot accounts. They were spreading Russian propaganda using >> quit.ocial to the rest of the fediverse >> and I was shocked and uh I immediately got rid of the accounts. Thank you ifas for letting me know about it. That's the >> uh that's the site that monitors disinformation. Um, and I I guess there was a bug, but uh, unfortunately because of that, I have now also turned on capture. So, there's all sorts of barriers to getting into Twitch social, but believe me, it's worth it. You do have to say who you are. You have to say you listen to Twit. You have to do a capture, and you have to assert that you're over 18. Thanks to various jurisdictions, >> and you have to pass a intelligent machines trivia question.
>> Yeah, we should do that. But really, all you have to >> You have to answer the the significance of sand.
Yeah, you do. And you have to, you know, cite some specific uh precedence.
>> I don't make it that hard. You could just say, "Let me in, Leo." And then I'll know you were listening. And that's all I really care about. But yeah, the bots, I don't know how they got in. I was really freaked out by that. I haven't seen any more, but I have to check every day now. Uh, thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Have a wonderful evening.
>> We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bye-bye.
>> Hey everybody, it's Leo Leaport. You know about Mac Break Weekly, right? You don't? Oh, if you're a Macintosh fan or you just want to keep up what's going on with Apple, this is the show for you.
Every Tuesday, Andy, Anako, Alex, Lindsay, Jason Snell, and I get together and talk about the week's Apple news.
It's an easy subscription. Just go to your favorite podcast client and search for MacBreak Weekly or visit our website, twit.tv/MBBW.
You don't want to miss a week of Macreak Weekly. I'm not a human being, not into this animal scene. I'm an intelligent machine.
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