William Clayton's diaries and Joseph Smith's secret polygamy

[00:00:06]Welcome to Mormon Land, where we explore news in and about [music] the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm senior religion reporter Peggy Fletcher Stack. Joining me is senior managing editor David Noise, who oversees our faith coverage. Hi, Dave.

[00:00:18]>> Hello, Peggy.

[00:00:19]>> Before we start, here's a quick ask. We invite you to go to patreon.com where you can access all the Tribune's faith coverage, ad free podcast episodes, and the full Mormonland newsletter. Again, that's patreon p a t r e o n.com/ormanland.

[00:00:36]And if you haven't already, follow us on Instagram at mormon.land. Now for today's episode, William Clay Clayton is likely known to most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the author of the beloved pioneer hymn, Come Ye Saints. To historians though, Clayton was a key figure in Mormonism's beginnings, especially during the years in Nauvoo, Illinois. He served as secretary and scribe for church founder Joseph Smith, keeping a detailed diary of all the happenings and controversies during that pivotal period. He recorded Smith dictating passages in the faith doctrine and covenants, including the section about polygamy, or plural marriage as it was known. For more than a century, the church kept a tight lid on Clayton's journals, allowing only select scholars access to them. But next year, the Utah based faith is publishing the full record with careful annotations through Yale University Press. Even before the publication, however, Clayton's account has been questioned by those who do not believe Smith practiced polygamy. Here to discuss Clayton and his journals are two Latter-day Saint historians, Matthew Gro, managing director of the church history department, Matthew McBride, director of publications for the department. Both have been involved with the Clayton project. Matt and Matt, welcome.

[00:01:58]>> Thanks, Peggy. It's great to be here.

[00:02:00]All right, let's start with an easy question. Which one of you wants to take it? Tell us about a little bit about William Clayton and his journals and what makes them so controversial.

[00:02:13]>> Matt McBride, do you want to take that?

[00:02:15]>> Sure. And William Clayton is a a convert of the church. He emerges on the scene in Nauvoo as a really critical figure as you've suggested. He uh was a a recordke keeper, professional recordkeeper, and was a a scribe and secretary for Joseph Smith. Um he's responsible for keeping many of the most important records and documents that we have that document the time of the saints in Nauvoo. He's involved with the creation of the council of 50 minutes. He he keeps Joseph Smith's private journal for a period of time and he keeps his own detailed journal uh between uh 1842 and 1845.

[00:02:54]>> [clears throat] >> Um, one of the reasons that his journal is so interesting to us as historians is because um, he's one of the few uh, people who documented in any kind of substantial way what was then a very private practice which was the the practice of plural marriage that had been introduced in Nauvoo by Joseph Smith uh, in the in their early years there um, and [clears throat] um, was kept largely uh, from public view and very few people kept detailed records of what life was like in that practice, what Joseph Smith said about it. That's not to say that William Clayton's journal says a lot about what Joseph Smith taught or or or gives us a tremendous amount of detail, but it is more detailed than almost any other source. So, that's what kind of places at this at the center of this maybe some of the questions and controversies.

[00:03:49]Beyond that, the thing I think our team's most excited about because some of those more controversial passages have been available to the public for many years. We're we're excited because Clayton's Journal is one of the most remarkable records of social life in Nauvoo, of Joseph Smith's day-to-day dealings of the construction of the Nauvoo Temple. um and and many other like really important questions to us and and so to be able to bring that uh to the public and make it available that's that's what energizes us about this right now. So something happened decades ago. Matt Gro, some notes on his journals were stolen. Some scholarly notes were stolen, published by anti- Mormons Gerald and Sandra Tanner. What was the nature of that material? And why did it cause such a stir back then? It it caused a stir because it was excerpts, notes about taken from the journal about the more controversial aspects that William Clayton uh wrote about. So, uh passages about plural marriage, passages about temple ceremonies, uh those sorts of things uh when uh they were published attracted a lot a lot of attention. And like Matt mentioned, um this for us means that the most controversial passages have been available for decades. The passages about plural marriage have long been out there. And what this new publication does is it fills in all the gaps about everything else that was going on in Avou.

[00:05:26]So because a lot of our listeners may not know, uh Matt McBride, we'll start with you. What what evidence appears in Clayton's journals that show Joseph married multiple women?

[00:05:37]Well, I think >> like how's it recorded?

[00:05:39]>> Right. I I I'll just point to what I think is the most significant entry, which is uh William Clayton's journal entry. It's on a day in July of 1843.

[00:05:48]It's the date on which what is currently section 132 was dictated. That's right. July 12th.

[00:05:55]Uh William Clayton is involved in the the creation of that document initially and he is he records in his journal that Joseph Smith received a revelation relating to uh the practice of biblical figures entering into this these plural marriage arrangements and and how that relates to the the the restored church in that moment. And I think that's the most important journal entry. Now, there are other journal entries um that document Clayton's practice of plural marriage that and that point to tensions between Joseph and Emma over the practice. And then a few entries that um that are written kind of a little bit cryptically but clearly enough for us to to understand that there were some of that they represent accounts of some of Joseph Smith's ceilings to other women.

[00:06:47]>> Matt Grove, do you want to add to that?

[00:06:50]the uh there is a fair amount of information uh like like uh Matt mentioned about William Clayton's own introduction to the concept of plural marriage and authorization from Joseph Smith to practice uh plural marriage. So it gives us uh an insight into how uh men and men and women as well uh were introduced to this idea of plural marriage and then authorized by Joseph Smith to to to practice it. So it's it's really the best on the ground record of what it might have meant for someone to uh practice plural marriage in Nauvoo.

[00:07:29]>> These were happened before July 1843 though, right? Some of these that are recorded.

[00:07:34]>> That's right.

[00:07:35]>> So what happens on July 12th? What do we learn from that uh from that besides dictating essentially the the quote revelation?

[00:07:43]>> Right. So the um I mean that that's the core of it, right? So it it it seems clear that uh Joseph Smith has had uh these concepts uh the this revelation uh in his in in his mind before this date before it is recorded. Uh there's uh clear evidence that there's uh that Joseph Smith and others have begun to practice plural marriage before it's written down on paper. And and and you have to understand the context here that everyone Joseph Smith, William Clayton, everyone uh wants this to be kept from public view, right?

[00:08:21]uh is it's born in a in in in a moment of uh great concern that if uh this in that if this practice uh were revealed that it would lead to opposition, lead to persecution uh against the church.

[00:08:39]And so there is this real uh concern that it be kept secret >> and it's not widely known in the church, is it?

[00:08:46]>> That's right. That that that's right.

[00:08:47]And that that's one of the reasons why it's valuable to see how someone like William Clayton may have been introduced to the practice that uh that a church leader Brigham Young or Joseph Smith uh and in William Clayton's case both of them uh went to him to teach him about plural marriage and then he said is this something that I could uh pursue?

[00:09:08]>> Could you talk about when it's presented to Emma?

[00:09:13]So we don't we don't get any knowledge on that from the journals. We we do uh understand uh that um there is discussion between Joseph Smith and William Clayton about plural marriage and between Emma Smith and William Clayton uh about plural marriage and that uh William Clayton is really a confidant to both Joseph and Emma. And so he we do have some uh insights into um some of the tensions that existed over plural marriage within uh within the Smith household and how some of those tensions were were worked out over time. So we we don't get insights into the moment the demo was introduced or or how that happened.

[00:09:59]>> It seems like most historians who study this believe some of Joseph's plural marriages did include physical intimacy.

[00:10:05]Did Clayton ever record any evidence of that? Um, >> not for Joseph Smith. No.

[00:10:10]>> Okay.

[00:10:13]>> That mostly comes from later affidavit, >> right? That's it would have come from later affidavit or later statements by some of of of Joseph Smith's wives using uh 19th century euphemisms.

[00:10:28][laughter] >> Are there other issues besides polygamy in the diaries that cause church leaders concern? You mentioned the council of 50.

[00:10:37]>> Yeah. So the so the council of 50 was a confidential group that was established about three or four months before Joseph Smith died. Uh and its purpose was to uh to explore other places where the Latterday Saints could live if they needed to leave Nauvoo. So the writing's already on the wall. They already understand that uh they may need to leave Nauvoo. So they're looking at Texas, which is an independent nation.

[00:11:05]They're looking at California, which at the time is is is held by Spain. They're they're they're looking at various options. Um, and within the Council of 50, they also talk about, well, what is what would the correct government of the kingdom of God be? And so, they're using words like theocracy that aren't popular words in the 1800s [laughter] in 19th century America. And so the there is concern at the time that the council of 50 be kept confidential, that these discussions be kept confidential.

[00:11:41]And uh when the council of 50 minutes were uh published as part of the Joseph Smith uh papers uh some years ago, uh I think that historians found great interest. Uh but if you were to read through those minutes, uh there's not a lot of shocking material in [laughter] them.

[00:12:03]Well, let me ask Matt McBride, let me start with you. What why have the church kept these journals tucked away for so long?

[00:12:12]>> What What was the church worried about now?

[00:12:14]>> Well, it's a it's a great question and I I mean it's hard hard to go back and and understand and know what all of the thinking [clears throat] was. I mean, as we've thought about it, we we try to recognize, of course, that, you know, that that was all mostly happening kind of during the mass media age when, you know, this is how organizations behaved and you you have your message and of course the church's primary message and focus is on preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and a lot of times they would look at something that they felt was an arcane maybe historical matter, controversial though it may be, and say that's not central to what we're here to do. Um, and of course we've seen over the past few decades a willingness on the part of church leaders to to kind of make those materials available to be more transparent about those aspects of our history. The Joseph Smith papers of course being the the premier example.

[00:13:06]And it was during our work on the papers that they the first presidency gave us permission to publish the Clayton Journal. And of course we had an obligation to finish those papers first which we did. And no sooner had we uh kind of completed that work than we turned I think probably our best team of Nauvoo scholars from the Joseph Smith papers to work on the Clayton Journal.

[00:13:29]Of course, it takes time to do the work that we do to prepare. We wanted to give the Clayton Journal the same treatment that we gave the Joe Smith papers because it's such an important document relating to Joseph Smith's life.

[00:13:41]>> Why go through Yell University Press and not say Church Historians Press or something?

[00:13:45]>> It's a great question, too. I we just wanted to publish this with a a a reputable academic press. We felt like Yale would was just I mean we're so excited. It's the the best we could do.

[00:13:57]We thought Yeah. And and and so when we have a book, we just think about what's the best publication outlet. We published uh books uh through Oxford University Press uh before now with Yale University Press. We've done them internally with our church historians press. And so we're just always trying to feel like what is going to hit the audience. Uh and this is this is really a scholarly production, right? I you'll pick this up and and and there's >> it's not a page turner, is it?

[00:14:27]>> You know, [laughter] I mean, we we like to think that everyone's >> Yeah. We like to think everyone's as excited about uh details of 1840s Nauvoo as we are. But but [laughter] we're realists. This is a scholarly book, right? this is not going to be uh a beach novel. Uh and every page has extensive footnotes where we're bringing in other records to shed light um on it.

[00:14:50]So that was one of the impulses. Let's go with an academic press. um let's go with the best academic press that that uh that we can find. And that's that's what led us to >> I was just wondering if because there's some controversy surrounding these diaries if if the church if you felt there was >> it gave it more credibility. Do you know if it's going through an outside press than a inside press?

[00:15:13]>> As as as historians who work for the church, we're always balancing um this question of credibility. We know that among that in certain sectors the very fact that we work for the church makes makes what we do uh questionable or easy to question. Uh and and and so we have no um no no doubts about that.

[00:15:34]Uh and so uh we we do want it to be perceived as credible and we do that both by the excellence of the work uh and by being as transparent about our process as we can be and then in this case by working with an outside partner like Yale >> that that does great peer review. Um, we were able to overcome some potential objections to our work on the Joe Smith papers by involving this board, this uh of of a national advisory board of really respected scholars and reviewers.

[00:16:07]Of course, that board is now dissolved since the papers are done and it just made sense for us in this case to publish with Yale and submit to their peerreview process.

[00:16:15]>> And we we faced the same question with with the Joseph Smith papers as we began that project. We knew that people would have questions. Is this a credible enterprise? and and we knew that we had to establish the credibility by the excellence of the work by involving scholars not of our faith tradition to review it to check the to check what we were doing. Uh and and with the the papers we really feel like it's been a success uh that out outside scholars the some of the best uh scholars on American history uh point people to the papers and they say this is really excellent work. this as a model for how other documentary editing projects uh like this could be done.

[00:16:54]>> So macro, I'm going to ask you a sort of an analytical question. It seems like the church and the critics have come full circle. [snorts] For a long time, the church played down the founders practice of polygamy. While critics wanted to quote out him, now the church openly admits Joseph was involved and the critics are arguing that he wasn't.

[00:17:16]How do you explain that? Well, of course, there's many critics and they exist across a large spectrum.

[00:17:21][laughter] So, so we lumped them all together.

[00:17:26][laughter] So, >> so weird.

[00:17:28]>> Some critics still believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. So, it is it is sort of a an interesting moment in time, right? And one way to think about this would be the uh the trajectory of of what was once known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. the reorganized really um coaleses as uh a a group in the mid 1800s in in the years after Joseph Smith's death. Uh and and one of the the the key differentiators is their claim that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Uh and of course over time uh in the last decades of the of the 20th century historians and other leaders of the reorganized church uh looked at the evidence and said he did practice polygamy, right? Uh and um that was part of the transition of re of the reorganized church now called community of Christ. Uh and and so it it it is this kind of interesting moment. I mean, Matt said earlier that the the the core mission of the church is to is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? It's not to get into historical uh debates.

[00:18:38]And so, there's there's never been a desire to um trumpet historical controversies or or or to lead with them. Uh but it is for us for those of us who work in the 19th century past uh the evidence feels so overwhelming that polygamy uh began with Joseph Smith that plural marriage began with Joseph Smith that it is a surprising uh twist.

[00:19:04]>> So why do some faithful members have a hard time accepting that Joseph practiced polygamy? I mean, when I step back from it, it seems to me like stronger evidence of the church's truth claims would be it did start with the founder. Why? Why do you think I mean, I remember when the church's essay came out about this? Why why do members in the tent members in the pews have a hard time accepting that? Matthew Gro, do you want to start?

[00:19:31]>> Matt, I say maybe a couple of things.

[00:19:33]One is is plural marriage is just a really challenging topic and and we can't pretend otherwise, right? it can be very emotional. It can be very difficult for people uh to to think about to imagine to um to confront.

[00:19:50]Right? So I I I think that's is one of the cores of it. It's just a really hard topic. Um second of all is that as we mentioned earlier uh polygamy began in a moment uh in which secrecy uh confidentiality was important. Uh and because of that uh the records that were created were often cautious, often uh referred to it in oblique kind of ways. Uh and there's not as many records created at the moment as might have been true for uh other topics, right? And so so there are some challenges with the documentary record.

[00:20:31]Um, and there's there's if you the documentary record does have um contemporaneous records, things that were created in Nauvoo like the William Clayton Journal, but it's not the only record. And then it then there are other records that were created later. And among these, the most uh substantial are affidavit that were taken in the late 1860s.

[00:20:55]uh dozens of affidavits were taken by people with knowledge of plural marriage in Nauvoo. People who were sealed into a plural marriage, people who performed the marriages, people who witnesses who witnessed the marriages. And so dozens and dozens of Latterday Saints in the 1860s, men men and lots of women uh swore affidavit of that the practice had begun in Nauvoo uh with uh Joseph Smith.

[00:21:20]So, so the the evidence is is really substantial, but I think it's both uh um the just the emotional nature of the topic and then uh we we do have less records than we >> bride. Why why do you think some members have a hard time with this?

[00:21:35]>> I don't know if I have much to add. I mean, it is challenging and and I I don't I don't blame people for having questions about it. It's it's something we all kind of have to work through in our own way. And but the the yeah the question about the historical evidence is really what [clears throat] has become the focus of these conversations right now. Um and and I think a lot of it has to do with kind of trying to line up some of Joseph Smith's public statements which denied his involvement and the involvement of others in plural marriage. We think often using very carefully chosen language to distinguish what they were doing is an approved kind of revealed practice and and polygamy or spiritual wife or other nonapproved instances of of of those kinds of marriage relationships. Um but but there's that there public statements and then you have all of these other records, the Clayton Journal and others. um and then the later affidavit. And so people are people are just kind of wondering, okay, does it make more sense that Joseph Smith was trying to protect himself, his family, his followers from the potential fallout and consequences of this becoming public, or is there some conspiracy involved in the creation of all of these other records? the and and and we we would look at that and say that the conspiracy idea doesn't hold that it's just it's untenable and that the the the the best explanation of all of the evidence is that he's practicing plural marriage and then acting in in good faith the best way that he can to to protect his >> I was wondering if it was the way it was done not just the fact that it was secret but that he married younger women, teenage girls essentially and also was sealed to people who were had husbands. I mean did that play does that play a part in this you think at all as to some of the reluctance? I think that plays into this just this whole question of the emotional nature of the topic, right? That it's >> polygamy is challenging. completely challenging and the way it was practiced can be challenging and uh I remember once a seminar I went to when I was an undergraduate student at BYU and Richard Bushman at the time was working on rough stone rolling and he was um presenting a chapter and the chapter had to do with uh plural marriage and there was another historian in the room who at at the end of the conversation said Richard great presentation I think you're wrong you're saying that Joseph of uh was maybe sold to 33 women. I I think it's actually 34.

[00:24:12]Uh [laughter] and Richard Bushman said, "Oh, that's great. We need to get the details right." He said, "But the the the real question is not 33 to 34. It's 1:2, >> right?" And so so that that that is the core, right, of the of of of the challenge. And of course, uh Latter Day Saints today have grown up in a a a monogous world, right? And so it's it's hard to uh to think about our spiritual ancestors, right, who confronted a very different uh a very different time.

[00:24:48]>> I think it's fair to add to that, and I don't want to I don't want to minimize anything, but at the same time, I think it's fair to say that the involvement of younger women in in some of these marriages is would it feels more difficult for us today than it might have for people living in Joseph's mist time.

[00:25:06]And this this whole conversation is fascinating because uh about a decade ago when when we were proposing that we publish the William Clayton journals really the what we were hoping to do is not to enter into a debate about did Joseph Smith really practice plural marriage [laughter] but it was to say this is an amazing journal if you want to learn about the cultural of Nauvoo. Uh this is a city of bands and concerts and parades and and William Clay's in in in the thick of all that. If you want to learn about >> was that he's a musician.

[00:25:40]>> Yeah. If you want to learn about the social life of Nauvoo, this is a terrific journal. I mean sometimes we think um that we we just have lots and lots of journals from the the Latter Day Saint past. And that is true, but it's not very true of Nauvoo. We just it's not very true of the early years. It's it's more true once we get to Utah. And so it's actually quite rare that we have a a detailed day by day, week by week account of what's going in Nav in in in Nauvoo. What are the priorities? What are the plans? What's what's exciting?

[00:26:17]Uh >> produce contemporaneous.

[00:26:19]>> Yeah.

[00:26:20]>> I guess we all have a tendency to think history jumps from historic moment to historic moment. We forget what's in between all those quote historic moments, right? Yeah.

[00:26:28]>> Yeah.

[00:26:29]All right. So, I want to go back a little bit to something you said, but maybe Matt McBride can also speak to this. Again, the polygamy deniers are saying or are saying that Joseph F. Smith, who was the church president, was I guess Hyram Smith's son, and he was leader kind of contesting a little bit with the RLDS president over these issues. And they are trying to claim that that really Brigham Young is the one who started it all and that Clayton possibly Joseph F. Smith might have doctorred or pressured and including also pressuring the women affidavit which I guess I haven't read them but read a lot alike. I mean there was a kind of format to it and they're saying well he legal documents >> he pressured them to say the same thing or whatever. Well like obviously uh you say there's plenty of evidence but >> what do you could he have done that is that possible?

[00:27:43]I mean, I'm I'll just I'll jump in here for just a second. Speaking specifically to the Clayton Journal and yes, in part because the the Clayton Journal really is a a key document. It's important as >> you know, contemporary evidence that Joseph Smith received that revelation and introduced that practice.

[00:28:02]>> Yes. So, and and and so we look at it and we're saying, "Was this an authentic, contemporaneously created journal representing the events just the way it says it does, or could it plausibly have been a forgery in the 1850s like some have claimed?" Um, the first thing we would say is, okay, the books in which the journal are written are very clearly books that were acquired in Nauvoo. are the same kinds of journals that other record keepers in Nauvoo have purchased.

[00:28:32]We can sit them next to each other. We know where the books themselves came from. And then you look at the contents of the journal. And this is this is getting back to something Matt said earlier about beach reading, but there are hundreds upon hundreds of minute details about financial transactions and land records that Joseph Smith is involved in in Nauvoo just throughout the the the journal because Clayton is is there watching all of this happen. And our team over years has worked to try to contextualize all of those. And we're able to corroborate all of those things from the the, you know, the lot to the purchaser to the price to the date that it was recorded on. And and that information that we've gathered at at great expense and pain is found in many, many disperate records that are kind of scattered all over creation. there's not really an opportunity for William Clayton or anyone else at any point, especially after they leave Nauvoo to to to be able to go through and reconstruct the narrative that detailed that matches those dozens of other records. Uh some of them are in deed books that are collecting dust in courouses in Illinois and Iowa. Some of the information would have to come from like the New K Whitney family's papers. It's just kind of all over and and but you see it all there in the claim journal in a way that we would look at it and say that only could have been produced by somebody who was living through that day today. And those are just a few examples of the things that we would there are many many other things we could say about it. But uh we've we've done so much work as we've tried to prepare this journal for publication to really understand it.

[00:30:14]We're not just reading a kind of a hastily created transcription of the journal for a few months and kind of throwing some ideas out there. We've we've looked at it very carefully for years. We have three scholars who between them have 50 years experience working on documents like this that have gone through to do that careful work of karab. We have very very high degree of confidence that that's an authentic.

[00:30:38]>> Have you done any kind of handwriting analysis? Handwriting analysis is always a part of the work that we do. We have some of the world's experts on that. Um we we also look at the documents and say, well, what about the the ink flow?

[00:30:52]What can we learn about the uh Jo William Clayton's journal writing practices? It's just these odd little things that we nerd out about, but it looks like he he sits down at the end of his day. These are office journals. They sit in an office. He's not taking them home. um he'll he'll keep loose notes or little notebooks and then he'll come and he'll copy that information in. But it looks like he sits there at the end of the day, writes down what happened the night before after he wrote his last entry during the day and right up to the point where there where he's going to like close the book and go home. I mean, we we're able to go through at that level of detail and and get a really good sense of his journal writing practices.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah. I think the one little thing I would add is that 40 years ago the church and others were victimized by a forger who created documents. Um and since then we are exceedingly cautious about these sort of matters. Uh and we have applied every form of expertise that we know of to the journals. And for those of us who have worked on the journals, there's just no doubt that of their authenticity that that this journal was created by William Clayton in Nauvoo. The thousands of details in this journal that then match up with other uh documents uh from the time. I mean, if William Clayton says that there was a band recital, you can probably find it in the newspaper. There was a band recital. It's just thousands of details and and to think is it possible that someone could have done that later.

[00:32:30]It just really strains strains credibility >> before AI is dazzled by the way. So So >> have they always been in the church's possession >> since since pretty early. So they were in Clayton's possession. He brings them to Utah. Um he's use he's lending these journals repeatedly to the historians who are working on Joseph Smith's history. This is another reason why we have a pretty good sense of their authenticity because material from these journals are show up showing up in the history all along the way. He's lending them to them and at certain point he does give them to the historian's office and they kind of been there ever since.

[00:33:06]They've been in the church's the the provenance of the journal is very simple and and clear.

[00:33:11]>> Yeah. And uh this idea of other historians in the 19th century using the journals uh probably the most important uh uh example of that is that two sections of our uh doctrine and covenants were taken from William Clayton's journal. Theological teachings of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, sections 130 and 131 were taken from from the journal >> there. Yeah. Actual entries in his journal. Yeah. I'm dying to ask how was his spelling and and and grammar? He's a pro. He the guy's a professional.

[00:33:48]>> Better than some that you see from >> his handwriting is amazing. We go through this process uh with Joe Smith Papers where we go through three rounds of verification. But like with William Clay, just to make sure you get the handwriting right because sometimes the handwriting is really tricky. But William Clayton, it's easy. He [laughter] just is a be is beautiful. I mean this the like Matt say he's a pro.

[00:34:09]This is what he does for leaving. This is a vocation. He knows how to spell. He knows how to write clean cleanly and all that kind of stuff. It's a joy to work on.

[00:34:17]>> Better than Joseph Smith himself.

[00:34:19]>> Well, better than not almost anyone else in Nauvoo, right? This is why he was doing what he was doing.

[00:34:25]>> So, we've sort of covered this, but I just want to know this this polygamy deniers fight that has emerged and we've had Matthew Bowman on to talk about it.

[00:34:33]And why is this surfacing now? What's triggering it? Do you do you guys have any idea? Matt Gro, do you want to take a stab at that?

[00:34:40]>> Oh, I uh I don't know that I could speak with any any insight into the timing uh of this movement uh except that um there's there's a long history in our faith tradition, in community Christ faith tradition over uh just because polygamy is a challenging topic. I mean, I I I really do think that's the core of it and and these debates and concerns about plural marriage will surface from from time to time. And of course, we do live in a moment where um with social media and with uh the online digital world that that these concerns I think can uh reach a wider audience than perhaps they have in the past. Yeah, people have platforms and then the ideas are just more pe more people are aware of of of some of >> so the internet sort of changes things too, right? Absolutely. So >> So you've hinted at some of this Matt McBride about some of the tidbits in there other than polygamy that are like you mentioned about a musician and day-to-day life. What what are some tantalizing things you learned?

[00:35:45]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:35:46]>> Yeah.

[00:35:47]>> Well, I the first my first love as a historian was the Naboo Temple. This is the first book that I ever published was on the Nauvoo Temple.

[00:35:55]>> What I wouldn't have given to have William Clayton's journal when I was working on that. It's it's probably the it's probably the the single best record about the construction of the temple, which to me still feels like one of the most remarkable stories in church history that you have this cash poor community that's lost everything in Missouri and then figures out a way to bootstrap to get that temple built because they care about it so much.

[00:36:21]religiously and it's is such a they're they're just so driven to do it and Clayton's journal like just is such an incredible textured record of how they accomplished it. That for me is one of one of my favorite aspects of the journal and but yeah, Matt Matt would might have other thoughts too.

[00:36:39]>> It um I do love the temple entries. So, he's the temple recorder, which means that he's recording all the donations for the temple and and and sometimes he's recording them in a big record book called the book of the law of the Lord, right? I mean, there's just this sense that what they're doing is important.

[00:36:58]It's it's divinely sanctioned. And you see the sacrifice of the of of people who come and give him things for the temple. And often times it's it's not cash, right? But it's it's clothing or it's things that can be sold. That's it's donations in kind. And William Clayton just has this front row seat of the devotion of the Latterday Saints. I I I was back in Nauvoo a couple of weeks ago and to to think about that beautiful temple built out of their poverty.

[00:37:30]Um I mean it's it's it's a remarkable uh story. Just one other thing that William Clayton gets us um right in in in the room is is the fallout from the uh the murders of Hyumman Joseph Smith. Right.

[00:37:45]So when the news comes uh uh uh to the city, he's in all of those meetings. Uh he's hearing about the martyrdom firsthand uh from uh Willard Richards and others who were in the room. Uh and just that sense of um uh he he writes on that day sorrow and gloom was pictured in every countenance.

[00:38:08]One universal scene of lamentation pervaded the cities. The agony of the widows and orphan children was inexpressable, utterly beyond description. Right. He's he's there in the room with Emma. He's there in the room with uh Lucy, too.

[00:38:21]>> And Lucy, too. Right. Joseph's mother.

[00:38:24]Yeah.

[00:38:24]>> Yeah. and and and and so he he gets us.

[00:38:27]I mean, he's not um usually when you're in those rooms, it's because you're a community uh leader, but he's just in all the rooms because he's the recorder and he's the clerk and he's the secretary. And so, he just uh g gets you in amazing places and and he does have kind of a gift of language, too.

[00:38:46]>> That's nice. Okay, last question to both of you. What should members take away from the Folk Journals? What should they expect? You've said a lot already, but is there anything else you want to add?

[00:39:00]Like overall, what should they uh besides something to read at the beach next summer when this comes out? Uh I for me it it really is that story of the devotion of the saints, right? I mean, you just you just see he has this vantage point where um the the the gathering to Nauvoo um and then the building of that temple was it's just an epic story and he has this front row seat to how uh women, men, children are making it happen. That's what I love about it.

[00:39:38]I I I can't top what Matt said, but if I could just add something here about the work that we've done to try to present it to the public, I you know, there have been excerpts of it, excerpts of it available before, as we've suggested.

[00:39:50]There there have been uh we've there's a transcription that's floating around the internet that's was an early transcription. We're really excited to bring this to the world in the form that we're doing be- because we're we think that it's it provi we're providing a lot of value um by putting it through that process that we do for the papers because you can read the journal um but without understanding the context in which it was written there there's a lot a lot of detail that that gets missed and we've we've painstakingly tried to go through and provide that context so that we're providing the best experience to people as they read it, they can understand the entries, they know what's going on, know who he's talking about, why he is where he is, and then um you know, subjecting it to the peer review and and and verifying the transcription. We're just we're excited to be able to see this published in that form. We think it's the best way for people to experience what we think is a remarkable document.

[00:40:51]>> Matthew Gro, Matthew McBride, thanks for joining us today. This has been fascinating.

[00:40:55]Thanks to Dave Noise. Always a pleasure.

[00:40:58]>> Uh, and to our producer Chris Samuels, we remind our listeners they can keep up on all the happenings in and about the church by subscribing to the Salt Lake Tribune's free Mormonland newsletter.

[00:41:08]Just go to sltre.com to sign up. We'll talk again next time on Mormon Land.