Rabwoni’s testimony offers a rare, unvarnished glimpse into the radical convictions and personal sacrifices that redrew East African borders. It serves as a sobering reminder that the region's modern political landscape was forged in the crucible of absolute ideological commitment by the very young.
安装我们的扩展，即时搜索任意视频内容
Fred Rwigema Asked Me to Invade Rwanda… I Said Yes | Maj Okwir Rabwoni本站添加:
Now from Mir is where I was called again.
>> Called to do what?
>> To go to Rwanda.
>> Called by who?
>> Called by Fred.
>> The RPF crossed the border on the 1st of October 1919.
>> Yes.
>> How many weeks before was that?
>> That was September 30th, the day before the attack. You kept telling me that when there's a a revolution in Wonder Here it is. He said, "You've been talking too much. Now, let's see."
>> He said that.
>> Yes.
>> When you say you were personally recruited by the late Fred, what do you mean by that?
>> So, I arrive in KBE where my sister was and I do some some information collection, >> some spying.
>> I'm told that the rebels are in the mountains, but they come down quite often. So Fred comes from the mountains with a platoon of bodyguards.
We say now this is the guy we want.
So we go in front of him and say we want to join the army.
>> What does Fred look like at this point?
Describe him.
>> Very young, tall, extremely smart. He was a very attractive character, very easy to like.
He was charming.
>> So walk us through the battle now through your eyes.
>> Fred himself was in that battle physically.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
commander bodyguard had to pull him and take him back because Fred always used to fight like that. He had this thinking military thinking that when commanders are at the front line soldiers don't get scared.
>> Was that true?
>> It's true.
>> Now that Kegali has been warned, why don't you go home?
>> I was close to the vice president and minister of defense then General Kagan and many other commanders. He said you could be useful to us as you wait for your >> you return back home. Were you the most senior you Ugandan fighter?
>> Yes, I was.
>> How many fighters are left by this time who are Ugandan?
>> Like 350.
>> How many do you think died during the war?
>> The number but they were many because at the beginning we were like 550 600.
>> It's almost half.
>> Almost half >> lost their lives.
fighting for the freedom of randoms to call our country home.
This is the very very best. I introduce the very very next big deal. You know this is the big leag You got to make a big long form.
This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Randon people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at akager medicines.com.
There was a time in this region when young men just did not debate politics.
They went to war for it. They left school, crossed borders, and joined movements that they believed would reshape their countries and in some cases the region itself. My guest today on the long form podcast is retired Major Aquir Raborni. Major Rabani is a man who lived through that era from the inside. He joined the National Resistance Army as a 17-year-old school boy in 1985.
Trained in Libya and Cuba and despite being a Ugandan later fought in the Rondan Patriotic Army during the Liberation War in Rhonda, becoming a battalion commander in the RPA. He would go on to fight in Congo and help depose Moubu, thus becoming part of three different revolutionary moments, all before becoming the age of 30. This is not just a conversation about history. It's about ideology, identity, and what it actually means to fight for an idea and live with the consequences after.
So >> major welcome to the long form podcast.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> It's really pleasure to interact with you >> and you know I'm I'm always and this is I'm speak on my personal behalf. I'm I'm always starruck to meet personal heroes of mine. Every single person who took part in the liberation war, the liberation of Randans for me is a hero, someone to respect utterly and to be extremely thankful for. I was born as a refugee in Uganda and for the first part of my life I was stateless as was my father as were my grandparents.
So to sit down and and talk to someone who paid a price for me and my family to call Kegali home, for me to own land in the place of my ancestors, is worthy of all honor and respect. So I just wanted to get that one out of the way.
>> Thank you. M >> you know for people who don't who look at you now you know you're I would not call you an old man but you're getting on with you're getting on in the years you've you've lived a life that is rich your life I think starts getting extremely rich in around 1985 you were a student uh an A-level student in King's College, Budo.
>> Budo. Yes.
>> Which for those who don't know is a extremely elite secondary school in Uganda.
And you decided to go and join a rebel group.
That would be the National Resistance Army led by >> President Yori Kagutami.
You are what? 17 years of age.
>> Yes. H >> I'm I'm trying to think about who who I was and what I was doing when I was 17.
I was I I think the the most strenuous activity I'd ever done then was probably play basketball. But you were joining a armed rebellion.
Looking back, going back to 1985, what did you understand by that decision that you made that maybe young people today don't fully grasp?
Uh well, for people to take up arms >> and fight a government, two things have to be in place.
The objective conditions on the ground must be so bad, the injustice so grave, injustice lived day by day that people think that they have nothing to lose >> embarking on a violent revolution.
Then the second is that the there are subjective conditions.
People must be aware that there is a solution >> to the problem.
In the case of Uganda, the army that we went to fight as young people >> was an outfit which was very variant people and we would see day by day.
>> Tell me about what you would see day by day. What did you personally see?
>> The outskirts of Kala would be littered with dead bodies.
>> Did you see them?
>> Morning.
>> Did you saw them?
>> We saw them. You know those areas of Bonga up to Gava soldiers would kill people and throw their bodies there. What is what you see now the the beautiful housing estates in in Tinder dead bodies would appear and then the roadblocks the roadblocks were centers of extortion of money >> from students from anybody old people and then there was always a possibility of people knocking on your door shooting your father and then grabbing a few things from your house.
>> That was actually what you were seeing.
>> So the army was an enemy of the people.
>> You in a permanent state of fear that any time I might lose a parent, I might lose my own life. I can't carry my school fees, my tuition in cash because they're going to grab it as a roadblock.
>> So then how would you pay your school fees? So sometimes your father would come, I don't know how they do it, and >> your elder brother >> hide in socks under the shoes, >> underwear.
>> Yeah, underwear. But get your tution there. But sometimes the army would take it. Like in my case, I was working with my late brother and soldiers. We were going to Bunga >> to see a sister of ours and then UNLA soldiers, Uganda National Liberation Army, they had a good name, >> stopped us, >> took my shoes, took my watch, walked away. So I had to walk in socks from Zambia >> up to Bonga.
>> What does that do to your What does that do to your psyche? So that is the object the the objective conditions on the ground which I talked about.
>> But what does that because that's I know you want to talk about things through a very ideological framing.
But I also want to understand the psychology that creates that ideologically ideological framing. Yeah.
>> When you're walking when you're walking with your brother, did he also lose his shoes?
>> No, he didn't somehow. And he was and he was opposition. He was UPM, which was 77 was in the bush.
>> Yeah.
>> And there was UPC. You support the governing >> party.
>> So my brother added to my anger by saying that you see your own soldiers of UPC >> just looted your property.
>> But why didn't they take his shoes?
>> Maybe they were not they didn't like them. They were not beautiful enough.
So, so nice shoes. My shoes were not nice enough and he didn't have a so they they took my property.
>> They took your property. You walk.
>> So, we walk talking about this and I say I think there should be a change. I remember that day. Was that was that the Would you say that that was the spark?
>> That was the the what would they call the the the straw that broke the camel's back?
>> If they had So what you're saying if I'm not mistaken is that if you had not met those soldiers and they had kept your shoes and your watch, the likelihood that we're sitting here talking this having this discussion might have been different. It's difficult to say because they always doing it. If they they not taking the shoes, they might have slapped my mother which would have been worse.
So the the character of an oppressive army >> recruits.
>> Yes.
>> For the opposing forces.
>> Yes.
>> They'll always do something.
>> In this case, all of us have a story.
>> Yes.
>> If you interview people who were in the Lero from 1981 to 1986, all of them have a story. either he was out of a taxi and rolled in the mud.
>> So those stories show the character of the army and how the people had reached a level where they could not take it anymore.
>> And at least in my case, I had a family which was middle class. But you can imagine people whose parents were killed in royal peasants.
>> Soldiers just just come and kill people for fun.
So all those ended up in the NRA.
>> They were create they were almost the the army itself was creating its own problem.
>> Yeah. It was recruiting for the NRA and then the NRA also was smart enough to craft to design a program >> of telling the people that you have an alternative, you have hope, we are here.
M >> so you have on one side somebody creating problems for themselves the regime and another group the NA saying we can create a better Uganda we can create a pro people army >> we can bring peace and stability we can rebuild the economy >> so the situation was ripe for something very big to happen and indeed it happened >> but you're 17 aren't you are Are you so angry that fear is no longer part of the solution? Is no longer an an option for you?
>> Well, nobody should ever tell you that war is enjoyable. It's not. It's a very frightening phenomenon.
But you have to make a choice.
>> But did you actually know how frightening it was?
>> No, I didn't know. I didn't know when I was young.
>> I thought it could be done. If others were there, let me go there. If I fail, I'll run back home and go to school. My parents will embrace me.
>> Yes.
>> But you know the human mind, the psych of a human mind. It's that you look at your surroundings and then you realize that you've got to survive as a person, as a family, as a community. There are certain things on which you cannot put the price.
So for me going to even when I got there really I realized that it was not easy life >> but you could see hope we had very good commanders. I was personally recruited by the late Fredo Jim.
>> Walk us through that. Oh, wait.
So, I I I've seen that as part of your story.
When you say you were personally recruited by the late Fred, what do you mean by that?
Take us back to that moment >> after the theft of my shoes and my watch.
>> That and that was in Campala.
>> Yes. I took a train from here >> and went to western Uganda. By that time the NR had crossed part of it >> had crossed from the Lero triangle to the Wori mountains. They had opened another front.
>> Yes. So the around the for the portal area.
>> So I arrive in KBE where my sister was >> and I do some some information collection.
>> Some spying.
>> Some spying. And I and I'm told that the rebels are in the mountains >> but they come down >> quite often >> and organize food and and then carry food to the mountains and they even reach town and they had contacts. So they said if you go to a place called on the fores road >> early enough or if you sleep there in one of the abandoned houses >> you will see them come the commanders.
>> Mhm.
>> And then there were two other young people one Uganda and another one Rwanda refugee.
>> Do you remember their names? The the other one was called Singoma, the the Ugandan and the Rwanda young man was called Alex Schumba.
>> So we go very early in the morning and wait to see anybody who looks like a commander.
>> Who looks like a you know what a commander looks like?
>> We knew he should have some bodyguards.
>> Okay.
>> So Fred comes from the mountains with a platoon of bodyguards. We say now this is the guy we want.
So we go in front of him as you want to join the army.
>> What does Fred look like at this point?
>> Describe him.
>> Very young, tall, extremely smart >> like in terms of dress.
>> Yeah. In dress, but when he would talk to you, he was very funny to a level of being cheeky.
>> What kind of >> He was a very attractive character, very easy to like.
>> He was charming.
>> How did he sound? What was his voice like?
So we stop and I tell him I'm the one who spoke on behalf of the others that I want to join the movement. I say you aren't you supposed to be in school? I say yes. Said do you want to join the movement or the army? But what I wanted to ask you was like his voice. You know one of the the the the it's it's unfortunate that we because he died so soon >> Mhm. we we don't hear him speak as much as we would want to. So, we have an image of him, >> but you're one of the people who are able to say, did he was he softspoken?
Did he have a booming voice?
>> Uh, Fred was soft spoken.
>> Soft spoken with always a twinkle in his eye. He looked extremely mischievous, >> but he was a lovable fellow. He was a likable fellow. Mhm.
>> And and he had lots of jokes.
>> Yes. So yes. So he he looks at you and he says, "But you, man.
>> You should be in school.
>> You wait for us to finish this thing and you go back to school." I said, "I want to be part of finishing the job." Cuz remember that was 1985.
>> Yes.
>> And we captured Kala January 1986.
So Fred says okay if you made a decision used to combine English with it. So he writes a note >> and tells us to go to a place called Bikoy.
>> Bikoy was stationed on the middle slopes of Mount Razor.
And then from there and when we finished our 3 four week training >> wait you're going you're going too fast.
So you walked like because of course you're not you there's no Google maps at this time.
>> So he tell he gives you a note he says go to Booy.
>> Yes. Now that time remember >> where we were on the slopes of the resort. There were no people people had abandoned their houses their shambas.
>> Mhm.
>> And they had fled either to or for >> Yes. So how do you know where you're going?
>> He shows that he say you go follow that roots you'll find some people.
>> So we walk the slopes of the were so steep that they had dug steps.
>> Yes.
>> And we claim and the place was so cold and we had come with light jackets. M.
So as we are moving we start seeing military people with with part camouflage dress and part civilian. These are the ones.
So we as people guided us.
So in that place we found this lady now who works for with president general.
There was a a senior commander who died after the war called the Ganja and we reported they showed us who the admin was and they recruited us and we joined other >> and you showed them the the note from >> the note the note was a game changer.
>> Yes.
>> Everybody respected us as if >> what did it say? What did it say?
>> This it said admit private. They had already called me private private rama to the NA.
>> They should join the training and please inform me when they're ready for combat duty.
>> And then they did they sign his name >> signature >> and that note was gold. Whoever would show the northeast and by that time Fred was the overall commander of the >> Oh, really?
>> Because had been injured in the army.
>> Yeah. He had got shot in the >> Yes. And had been taken to Nairobi. M >> so Fred as deputy army commander was made the acting commander of the entire NRA and the president at that time had gone to Sweden to mobilize logistics for the army. So we are talking to the head of the rebel outfit.
>> Yes.
>> So we trained.
>> How many how many guards did he have?
>> I can't tell.
>> That time when the guards >> Yeah. the guards.
>> The guys he had a whole platoon like 30 soldiers.
>> 30 soldiers were so that was his protection detail.
>> Yes.
>> And he was he was loved by the population, local and the army.
>> He was a very exceptional man. So true to his word on the day we were passed out >> he came and fixed us.
>> How hard was the training?
The training was very very difficult because first of all the terrain was hilly.
>> Most of us were born in the lowlands and in the plains that's where we live is very steep.
>> Secondly the cold it's a very cold place. That's why when later on I went through and we were in the very mountains.
>> You felt comfortable.
>> I felt very comfortable cuz I had been through.
>> Yeah. And then also the food >> food was cast. So we had to go down and get food from the abandoned chambers >> of the people in the lowlands and then carry up.
>> But we made it.
>> And by September, October, we were ready for combat.
>> Mhm.
>> So that was the bulk of the NR by the way cuz the original fighters were like 4,000. But when the NR reached western Uganda in those areas of Toro Boro >> educated young people who were in universities, high school joined.
So that this group is a group of the General James Mira, >> General Many >> joined at that time. David Mozi.
>> So that is the group that later on formed the backbone of the army >> of the UPDF >> and now they are the top commanders of >> Here's a question. What are your secrets worth? And how far will you go to protect them? Every day tens of thousands of hacked credentials for emails, social media, and other services are bought and sold on the dark web. All without victims suspecting a thing. If you're like me and desire some peace of mind, Threat Informant is for you. Built by Shieldtech Hub, a cyber security company, Threat Informant is a dark web monitoring online solution that allows you to search the deep web for hidden markets, detect your leaked data, and react before any damage is done. And here is the best part. It's available for government agencies, businesses, and individuals like myself. It's simple. If your data is out there, threat informant will let you know. So, take control of your digital safety today and scan the QR code that you can see on your screen or click the link in the description to sign yourself and your entire organization up. You cannot protect yourself if you don't know you're under threat. Get threat informant today.
Listen, I know just how annoying it is when just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long form Patreon. For just $4 a month, you can enjoy adfree listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes plane tickets. We don't do it for money.
We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories, and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the long form Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN Momo using the code registered under LF Media 95462.
Thank you so much for believing in what we do. So after your 3 months training, you said 3 months. Three weeks. Three week three weeks.
>> Three weeks.
>> Three weeks we ready to fight.
What are you being taught in 3 weeks?
>> Most of it was fieldcraft.
Fieldcraft weapons training tactics.
>> When you talk about fieldcraft, what's fieldcraft?
>> Fieldcraft is how you use the terrain >> to fight.
>> Mhm.
>> What actually soldiers do in the wilderness? How how they they use the >> the cover, the lay of the land.
>> Mhm.
>> To fight. Then tactics are the formations you use in different situations to engage the enemy.
>> Mhm.
>> So we did very little of the drills, the parade, those were >> to be thought after >> when you when victory had been >> basics weapons training, how to use your kalashnikov and your grenade.
>> Yes.
>> Two. Yes.
>> Grenade. Kalashnikov.
>> Kalashnikov. Grenade. Second. How to take cover, how to change position, how to >> fire and maneuver, >> fire and movement.
How how section fights that tactics, how a platoon fights, how a company fights, different formations, the different commanders of the different formations and we were through >> the lesson learned on the job >> because 3 weeks is is 21 days.
>> Yes.
>> 21 23 and 4 weeks, >> but that's still about 28 days and and they're getting a full civilian, >> you know, >> and turning him into what I'd call a killing machine hopefully. That is the beauty of guerilla armies >> because the young people who were being trained were so angry >> they learned so fast and we knew that what we were learning was rudimentary >> but we if we can get into the battlefield we would learn more practically >> that what would than what we would get theoretically and indeed it happened we learned on the job the first battle you're very scared you don't know what you're doing >> yes walk Whether you have killed somebody or or you have just been shooting in the air then the second battle we are better the third battle >> they so the first battle was >> that was your first battle.
>> Yes.
So from >> how does >> slowly and because I want to understand you know the stories of these battles of of the men and women who were part of these I think need to be told in detail because very often as is in history will be conversations like this will help under us understand the the prices that were actually paid by men and women. So uh forgive me if I I ask you to sometimes a bit granular.
>> So you are a 17-year-old boy who has been trained for maximum 28 days and you go into your very first battle saying I am going to now potentially kill or be killed.
When you're moving towards the battlefield for the very first time, can you take us back if into your mind state, what are you thinking? Are you thinking, hey, I might never see my parents again? Or are you so taken up by the here and now that you're not really thinking beyond the task that is at hand?
>> Yes, a combination of both, but to a large extent.
The psychology of a young person is interesting.
>> You there is even one part of your psych that's telling you this is going to be the most interesting thing you've ever seen.
And then the numbers also help >> cuz you say he's here, he's there. Why should you why should I be the one to be scared?
>> If he can do it, if the other one can do it and all these officers who have been doing this for such a long time, remember our commanders had fought with the Tanzanians.
when they were coming to throw in.
>> So in your mind, you're saying this guy, he went through the 79 war >> and now he's here commanding us and he has his eyes and his legs and so I will as well survive.
>> I'll be fine.
>> I'll be fine. And my colleagues are here. We'll be fine.
>> And then other things you get used to the noise of Bros.
>> So you were in the mountains, the the the Renzori mountains. M >> bar is not close by for so so for the the people who don't understand the distance >> it's maybe 300 400 km >> that's like 200 >> 200 or so >> yes but when you when you use the >> not yes were you using the main roads >> partly using the main roads partly matching >> I don't remember properly the main because we're moving at night but what I remember is that the reorganization area was ina >> then from we matched single file.
>> How long did that take?
>> One and a half days.
>> Gez. Are you eating at this point?
>> Yeah, we're eating dryations. Would boil mason and beans?
>> Yes. In >> Yes.
>> And drinking water.
>> Yes. So was half successful, half because the enemy knew that we were coming and they brought in reinforcements >> without our intelligence knowing.
>> So we were not able to overrun it.
>> So walk us through the battle now through your eyes. realiz the battle was in the morning and um it was misty >> old >> and the barracks was huge.
>> So you were attacking a barracks.
>> Yes, that barracks you see.
>> Yes, it's I think it's called the Simba barracks.
>> I mean called Simba the Simba barracks.
So we managed to breach the first defenses, >> go through the >> So you're there with your with your your with your gun, your running and >> Kimopile.
>> Yes.
>> Then when we reached the objective >> then >> extended line.
>> Yes. And then your rapid is it single?
>> Single. Nobody was allowed to The bullets were two.
>> We were counting the >> We counting the bullets.
>> So, we were able to run the first their first line of defense.
>> But they were smart. Their main line of defense was >> and that's when we started running out of ammunition.
>> Mhm.
>> And they had overwhelming fire. We must have lost like 60 fighters.
>> Did you see any of your colleagues die?
>> Oh yeah.
>> What is going on through your head at this point when you see >> somebody? There was somebody in a ferocious fighter, somebody in ninth battalion. Then the young man called suicide.
I remember he was telling us not to fear and he had removed his shirt and he was tying it around his waist.
>> So that was the first time he saw death, people getting killed.
>> Did he die that battle? Suicide.
>> Suicide didn't die. He died after captured power of just normal sickness.
>> Yes.
>> And he was a ferocious fight and >> we used to call him crazy.
>> We used to think he was crazy.
>> And Fred himself was in that battle physically.
>> Really?
>> Yes.
>> The full commander.
>> Bodyguards had to pull him and take him back because Fred always used to fight like that >> at the front line. He thought he had this thinking, military thinking that when commanders are at the front line, >> soldiers don't get scared.
>> Was that true?
>> It's true. I think it's it's also military thinking from the Israelis.
>> They think like that. They they in the 1969 1967 war and the 1973 Yomur war >> Israel lost very many commanders >> because of fighting >> but the front lines >> the front lines >> but other armies generals fight from the back because they want to preserve them be able to fight many battles.
So Fred was like that all his life.
>> And you felt >> and you felt >> when you saw him when you saw him there.
>> Yeah. Finally here.
>> Yeah. I might as well also move.
>> Yes. Fred is here. She is here.
We are okay.
>> I think that's the optimism of youth.
>> Oh yeah.
>> I >> that's why many people succeed in the army when they join young.
>> Yes.
Because you are very optimistic. You you throw away the ideas of death >> and sometimes you feel cocky. You can I can dance with death. I will not get killed.
>> Young people.
>> So you you see the first person you said you lost about 60 70 soldiers >> colleagues. These are probably young men who just a day before you were laughing with.
>> Yeah. and many more injured.
>> Yes.
>> Did you then understand was that a reality check where you said, "Oh, >> I'm in war now. This is war.
>> This is the real thing."
>> When you see someone bleeding out or their intestines are out or their brains are >> Yeah. Because when you're a teenager, you think war is like Rumble >> kind of film.
But when you come to terms with it for whatever battles, people have to die, people have lose their legs, people lose their arms, permanently disfigured.
You come to understand that the profession I've chosen >> is a difficult one and you we used to talk about it a lot at night after battles. People would say say no, it's what we signed for. The country is more important than us.
And it's interesting even people who don't who are not serious believers >> start praying.
>> Even the communists among you.
>> Even the communist say maybe God is there. If you are there God please make sure I don't die.
>> Would you say that that first battle and that first whisper of death was the time when you became a man?
You left the things of boyhood behind >> reality.
>> And the advantage of being in an army which had a political education program >> was that you are armed psychologically to know that you are fighting for a cause.
You are not a militia that is looting.
You are enjoying, you know, eating things and traumatizing a population, but you are told before you go to battle that you're fighting for the people.
You're fighting for your family. You're fighting for your community. You want a better country, where everybody has a role to play, where everybody has invested in the prosperity of the country. We felt we were heroes >> that we were standing in for our parents, for our siblings, for our communities >> and wherever we go when we would interact with the population, these are our boys. Look at them.
>> So we had that sense of pride. We had a sense of pride saying we are doing the right thing >> and our people are proud of us.
>> We're not being wasted.
>> Yes. It was accelerating. You know people would drive their cars and stop and say can we give you a lift?
>> Somebody gives you a lift then stops at the restaurant let me buy you food >> and then even gives you money. So it was the opposite of what we had seen with UNL where people would run away.
>> They won't steal our money. Now people were begging you to accept a lift to buy your food in a restaurant and to accept a little cash.
>> Sometimes would fear and say no please don't give me money. my commanders mate who mistake you that >> I I have forced you.
>> So we had that pride of saying we are liberators.
>> When did the the part of your story is that you were late Fred's aid the camp?
Was that true?
>> No, I was not his aid the camp. His aid camp was first uh um a guy called Mahi who was awesi >> who is still alive.
>> Mah died. Mahes is still alive and then later on was the one who was very close to me >> because we later met in Rwanda.
>> Yes.
>> You're talking about a lot of randons.
Randons. Randons.
I'd like to understand in that force, you know, the the idea of panafricanism very often is just a slogan and then >> and or the shared uh the shared dream of of of prosperity. Sometimes it's it's a slogan but I think when I think about the men and the even the women who are there they they weren't just Ugandans who be they were as you said panda panda panda did you ever sit down with them and ask but you are why are you fighting and dying with us? Did you ever get a chance just at a >> even at a a level of curiosity but why are you here?
>> It was very interesting.
>> My interaction with varanda was first at school. I had many friends who are very smart in class >> at budo >> first atura. I did all of budu. So in we had a refugee campa >> there's another one I remember it's near side >> where >> kahun so kahun refugee camp was used to send people used to send children to secondary schools in for Yes.
>> Stgo and school, the girls in >> I found them interesting.
They were living in refugee camps but they were proud and they would even speak their language and many of them were very good in class.
>> So they became my friends. So I asked them why are you here? Then they told me the whole story of Belgian colonialism when I was still a civilian.
>> Yes.
Belgian colonialism, the the fusion of hate ideology among the hut ethnic group and then the expulsion of people in 1959 and the subsequent years up to 1964 I knew all about that. Now when I go to the army >> and I'm very close to Frederma and some of his bodyguards in Rwanda, >> then he starts looking at them with interest. So even for those who are not in general afraid security detail, >> I would call them and ask them. Even those who are senior to me, please tell me your story what happened in Rwanda.
And the more stories I would receive, the more I would associate myself with them. Said these are people who are very interesting.
Whole communities uprooted from their country.
And it sounded so such a grave injustice and I was asking myself why did they allow it happen like that? Then they told me stories of who tried to fight and they failed and then people had resigned themselves staying in refugee camps. There was a lot of sadness.
One of the things that we talk about as randons is that the there was a plan to get as many randons as possible into the National Resistance Army to prepare for the eventual return back home.
Is that what your sense was at the time that okay these these guy these men and women these largely men are here but they're thinking beyond >> the capture of Kala but eventually was that ever part of the conversation >> the in were very cy they were very careful >> about what they would say and what they would do. M >> but now looking back in retrospect >> I believe the plan was there and Fred Jama and now President Paulami >> knew about it and many others >> knew about the plan because >> there is a cohort of canders who used to hold meetings in Nairobi. I came to know about this later >> and they were talking about recruitment into the NR and then using the NRA as a springboard and Uganda to go for Rwanda's liberation and when you see how they were picked people were doctors medical assistants >> whom they would use later in their struggle >> and they were convinced to join the NRA >> some of them quite early in >> now the reason I'm saying this is because I also know I know it from my side from the Randon side. So the Rondon side I've spoken to people who were there at the time who even met Fred who spoke to him who even uh uh uh got him into the organization that then preceded the RPF which was the Ranu the Randan Alliance for National Unity >> which was based in Nairobi.
>> Yes. Yes. And they told me that as early as 1981, Fred had sent an instruction to them saying, "Bring us men to come and join."
>> Yes.
>> That there was a even at the at the very beginning, it wasn't a a mistake of history that there were a lot of Randons in the NRA.
that it was a it was a strategy for the eventual return back home.
>> I think many people especially president who was the rebel leader by then knew about it. They didn't talk about it because it would bring fractious arguments definitely between Ugandans and the van who were there. So the story when we were being taught political education, these are our friends, they are our brothers, they're in refugee camps, they're helping us liberate our country because even in the regime, you know, oppressive regimes are funny. They do the same things everywhere.
>> They were dis dislocating Bwanda even from the refugee camps and other communities which had accepted them. If I remember properly between 1982 and 1983, especially in the areas of anor.
So funny enough put on buses and taken to >> so interesting enough and this is my own personal story. I was in Nachiva in 1982 and when the soldiers came for us we were not put in buses. My my grandparents put me my grandmother my late grandmother put me on her back and ran and that's how we I then ended up in Chakatu in Toro.
So when you say this these are actual you know some you say it as a story >> you're actually talking to someone. But it's interesting because my brother >> the late no was at school in >> they looked at him he looked like what's your name sounds >> so they they threw him on a lorry >> yes >> he was about to be taken towanda >> he was about to be deported from his own country >> from his own country then a UPC MP passes by and says I know this boy I think it was so they tell my own ah come down calm down the guy puts him in a cakes and back So you could see even by looking at somebody's face >> they were quite ready to mess up your life.
>> So we knew that there was a deliberate effort somehow. You could smell it that something happened. Now where I got really worried >> was the recruitment of the first cadet where Tanzanian TPDF Tanzanian people's defense forces was teaching our soldiers in ginger. Oh, that was but that is now after the >> after the war. So this is what year now?
>> 88 89.
>> Now between 88 and 89 >> Fred Jama is had been made an operations commander in northern Uganda and southern Sudan >> because northern Uganda was a springboard >> for the effort to help SPLA.
So Fred deliberately recruits hundreds of BA young people who had education >> recruits them for cadet.
Then when we saw the numbers they were almost outnumbering Ugandans that the group of the cover I think >> I think even General Mubarak was in that cadet.
So >> that's the the CDS of of of of RA.
>> Yes, that's the chief of defense staff.
>> So I asked myself why Fred is not sectarian.
>> There must be a reason for this. Ah >> then later on of course words would escape them when they be talking >> when they have a and I could get snippets of their conversation >> and at that time it used >> so you spoke a little bit you understood >> I could not speak but I could understand >> I could understand cuz language >> yes >> so these guys are into something >> they're cooking something >> they cooking something >> why didn't why didn't why didn't you report it >> that it was so easy >> no why didn't you report.
>> I didn't report it because I wanted them to do it.
Why them to do it?
>> Because at that stage we thought the N would be the springboard >> for liberation in our region around and other southern Sudan.
>> So we were very excited that if Baj want to do it, we would feel proud because they've been with us, their comrades.
>> In fact, I really want them to do it.
And so let's now so obviously 1986 NRA captures Campala.
>> Where is Okir at this point?
>> At this point Fred had sent me to the school the army school of political education.
>> He said >> why did he send you?
>> He sent me >> why you >> because in my in his group I was the one who was most interested in politics. In fact, I was tiring him with questions.
>> What were your questions?
>> My questions, why do we have a 10-point program? What does this mean? Do you know Shara? Are you do you want to make yourself a new Shavara? He loved the questions, but sometimes it would be too much. You go away, you're disturbing me.
So, one day he comes and says, "I'm sending you to go and study politics."
>> But let's go.
>> Make a good political >> if I may.
He was almost the overall commander of the NRA.
>> You are a private.
How is a private disturbing?
How is the private so how is a private so comfortable? How is he even able to access a general? If you are trying your best to raise healthy children, but feel like you need clear, trustworthy advice, Healthy Beginnings podcast hosted by Dr. Edgar Khima is for you. With over a decade of experience caring for children and supporting the parents raising them, Dr. Edgar Khima shares practical knowledge grounded in science but rooted in the lived experience of Africans.
Out every Monday, Healthy Beginnings with Dr. Ed Out every Monday, Healthy Beginnings with Dr. Edgar Khalima is on YouTube and all major audio platforms.
Hey, if you're tired of working hard but never getting ahead of Hey, if you're tired of working hard but never getting ahead financially, you need to start listening to the Money Blueprint podcast hosted by Isaac Musi.
The Money Blueprint podcast isn't a get-richqu The Money Blueprint podcast isn't a get-richqu show. Isaac Kungusi, an expert in financial literacy with over 15 years of experience, shares practical tools that help you build discipline, make better decisions, and create real and create real wealth. Out every Monday, the Money Blueprint podcast with Isaac Kungusi is on YouTube and all major audio platforms.
Next, >> remember I was in his security detail?
>> Oh, no. You never told me. No, you never told me that.
>> Even when we went to Bara, I was still in security detail.
>> Oh, you were in his security detail?
>> Yes, I was in security detail. And Fred was such an interesting man. After work, like in the evening, >> he would call us and talk to us.
We light a fire, >> talk to you about what?
>> We see talk to you about war discipline, ask you questions, how your family, what do you think about the way operations are being done.
So we were always very free with so whenever I would ask, I would ask questions which are out of the immediate environment.
I would not complain about lack of uniform or lack of good food. I would ask him about the revolution. What does it mean when we capture power? What are we going to do?
Are we going to liberate the whole of Africa? Are we going to Rwanda? I would ask him and he would laugh an answer.
So I found him a very interesting man.
But having got tired of my questions said let me send this command to a political school where there are people like him who like discussing politics and philosophy and ideology. So I ended up after capturing Kala in >> we did a course >> that's how I reunited with my late brother who was also had joined after me >> my and we we did a kada course then we were retained and and did an upgrade of that ideological course and then sent to Libya for >> quick question your parents did they know that you had gone off to to become a rebel.
>> Yes. Yes indeed they knew.
>> They knew.
>> They knew.
>> And in fact they knew both of us had.
>> But then had you sought their permission, their blessing or was it a feta compli back home saying ah dad?
>> No I didn't read anything.
>> Remember when I came from campal I passed and >> yes >> so people who knew me >> knew that had gone.
>> Alex had gone. So must have gone with us.
>> And then we also had >> there are people who would leave the army but go and whisper in the village >> that they found so and so.
>> Ah but so you never sought your >> suppliers the people would come to fix our weapons and whatever would go back.
They were civilians mechanics >> and then you couldn't there is nobody who has ever joined a rebel outfit >> and told their parents >> and told their parents. Everybody escaped because they would never have allowed me in.
And it it shocked them because they never expected me to >> really they did not look at you and say because sometimes you as a father now I have two children. I look at how they they operate you know as how they interact, how they play, their level of fearlessness. And already I see one is going to be a a rebel.
He's literally two years old. But I say this one, this one needs to >> My parents used to think that I would be a politician >> or an intellectual, an academic >> because I used to have very good grades >> in class.
>> And I used to love debating.
So I was not good at sports.
>> I was always calling groups of people and talking things which were beyond my ears.
So disgusted with me.
Have you heard that Americans have gone to Vietnam? They went to Vietnam and did this.
>> They went to Panama, >> you know, whatever whatever would be trending in international. They would listen to BBC >> and try to make sense of the world.
>> He makes sense of the world. Why is there so much injustice?
>> By that time there was fighting in Angala, fighting in Mozambique, fighting in Zimbabwe.
>> There's a lot of fighting >> was on fire during the cold war >> and you were listening to this and and and and also >> I'm trying to make sense of it but the more I would read the more I would get confused for the state of the world and the injustice and all these things. So when I went to the school of political education and I met people who were ideologically more knowledgeable than me, I started putting the pieces together. Okay, >> this is this is why >> Uhhuh. this is why things are happening.
I understood terms like imperialism, colonialism, neocolonialism and the the relationship between colonialism and neo colonialism.
Why the West was interested in propping up dictators and fascists in Africa.
I could put the pieces he started putting the pieces together and and knowing exactly where the problem was and how it could be fixed.
Now let's for us uh this is around 80 what you you're now in that school in in >> that is 86 >> 86 >> and then I think like in April May we were sent to Libya >> and then while you're in Libya doing your training there's also something being cooked in Kala and that is the formation of another liberation movement.
called the Randon Patriotic Randes Patriotic Front RPF.
It's at that po at that point it's pretty much a underground movement but it's led by your commander and friend.
When you come back from Libya, do you notice a change beyond, as you said, the recruitment of uh baranda?
As you said, they were almost outnumbering the indigenous Ugandans >> on that course, >> the course in Ginger.
>> Yes.
So when I come back, I realize that Fred is getting less and less interested >> in his operations in the north and south of Sudan.
>> He seemed to be sort of distracted and >> how did you see how did you how why were you in Fred's presence again?
>> Whenever I would finish a course, >> I would go there, you know, it was like my mother unit. Mhm.
>> I was training >> Mhm.
>> in ENT, >> but I knew my mother unit was Fred's security detail.
>> Yes.
>> So even my social life had now become interacting with >> with your colleagues >> with my colleagues in in Fred's unit.
>> Yes.
>> So he was getting less interested in operations here and but of course he was a disciplined officer. He would not openly show it. And I think that time he was spending more time on building RPA, RPF >> and then Rwanda soldiers, even those who are in operation areas in the north >> and the northeast they were also whispering things.
>> What are they whispering?
>> Definitely must have been saying if this thing starts how do we escape from these units? How do we take the weapons?
Now looking back in retrospect, >> I can I realize the the the small meetings they would you could see when even the body language that something was a foot.
>> Now for him to get me out of his hair. He say there is another course like tear a lot and talking we go to Cuba.
We go to for another year.
>> Yes. And when you what year do you come back? We came back at the beginning of 88.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And then now they say you go to DMI military intelligence.
>> Is that where you find president Kagami at that time?
>> Oh yes. He was deputy chief because I'm deputy director.
>> He was deputy director there in charge of administration finance.
The very tough man.
So we were always trying to be on the right side of the of the law working with him.
>> When you say he was tough, when you say he was tough, what do you mean?
>> Uh General Kagame was a stickler for discipline. M >> he would come to work early and then he had this habit of looking out of the window from upstairs and see who is coming late, who's driving a car he's not supposed to drive, who is badly dressed and then he would come down and reprimand you or call you to his office. So he wanted these things done on time but be neat, not only physically but neat in your head. M had you had you ever been reprimanded by him?
>> I always were always fighting >> what what did you do?
>> But deep within I was doing everything that he didn't want me to do.
>> What were you?
>> Partying.
>> You're partying.
>> I was partying. I I did not know how to use my money properly.
Uh yeah, around those things. You know what what teenagers do.
>> I mean by this time is you're saying 88.
>> So you're now maybe 21.
So he's he likes me a lot but our whole gang you know Kala was on fire after liberation.
>> N officers were so so much like to be the population.
>> They would virtually want to take you and live with you in their homes. They loved every young person who was in uniform.
So many of us were now either if you are not on course you are in operation so as to take you away from the >> from the enjoyment >> the endless celebration of victory.
>> Yes.
>> So that's why he helped us a lot in maintaining discipline of the unity especially around >> campal >> anybody who would escape from the north to come here and enjoy life >> he would first send you to the military police they look you up then they send you back to your unit.
>> So he helped us a lot. He was a stickler for discipline. H 88 89 you're still at the DMI?
>> Yes.
Then 90 >> 90 >> no 89 >> I asked for study leave >> again >> you remember I was in senior five when he joined the >> I didn't have a certificate for a level >> so I asked and he he agrees was gracious enough talks to the boss by that time it was general militia m and uh they agree gave me some I went back home.
>> Mhm.
>> And stayed with my father and mother >> and studied as a private candidate.
Taught by a university student who is now the cler parliament, former minister of defense called Adolf Migi.
>> So I passed.
>> Were you were you an officer by then?
>> Yes, the second.
>> Second of that. M. So I go to Mer >> to study law.
>> Now from Mer is where I was called again.
>> Called to do what?
>> To go to Rwanda.
>> Called by who?
>> Called by Fred.
>> What? Talk to me.
>> We are in a party at the guild canteen. Do you remember the because the the RPF invade uh crossed the border on the 1st of October 1990.
>> Yes.
>> How many weeks before was that?
>> That was September 30th, the day before the attack.
>> Uh-huh. They call you >> came physically.
>> Yes.
>> And said >> in Kanda. in he would always talk to me in so that I could learn >> the language. He said since you like and you're our friend, you should learn our language. So he said a vulnerable shark finally wants you.
>> He jump in his jeep.
>> Mhm.
>> Remember he had a Land Rover with seats which were facing out for bodyguards.
>> We drive to Malcolm X Avenue >> near where the Russian embassy is now >> and I find parking things.
>> What are they? How many are >> so many trucks, so many jeeps, and they're leaving. So I go inside the house, I talked to him. He said, "What is it?" He kept telling me that when there's a revolution in your dream, here it is.
>> He gave you a choice.
>> He said, "You've been talking too much.
Now let's see."
>> He said that.
>> Yes.
>> You've been talking too much.
>> Talking talking liberation of liberation of now.
So I say can you allow me to go to and I pick a few things.
I think he suspected that I went tooka and he tells you take him and he picks whatever he want.
>> So I go pick uniforms including my brothers and the few weapons we had there.
>> Okay. Wait, let's go slowly. You are a serving member of the National Resistance Army.
>> You are a a second left nut at this point.
>> Yes.
>> So you are even a junior officer.
>> You have a community back home. You have responsibilities and you also have your schooling.
This man who you rightly love at this point probably says, "You've been talking. Come."
It it must have been at some level a shock cuz it's always easy to to say, "I'm going to do this." But when it's now placed in front of you, >> Yeah. It was a shock of sorts but it was also very exciting for me because over time >> I had started looking at myself my future political career of being a revolutionary >> it's something I covereted and which I had read about Shavar in Latin America and I studied so many revolutions and >> and of course my training in the N that revolutions don't have frontiers h In fact, our revolution has no frontiers.
So I would look at the situation around us, especially with Congo.
Congo was a mess. Mobu was an agent of the west and was wreaking havoc in Angola and all the neighboring countries supporting decadent regimes.
was no worse. Even though he had less money, if he had money, maybe he would have been worse.
>> So, and the the the Rwanda question was open and shut. It was obvious.
>> That a big a big a big a big part of the population had been condemned perpetual.
And president in the first years of his presidency had talked to told him please your people they can't stay in these camps forever is not a prison for but Rwanda is full >> it's full like a glass >> like a glass of water and water >> it will spill >> it will spill >> now Rwanda is 14 million people it has not yet overflown >> in fact we welcome more people >> yes they welcome more people, same country, same size, >> more than double the population it was there. Now I thought that this is going to be historic if I survive this. And then what gave me comfort was that the Rondan army was smaller than the army we had engaged in Uganda here in LA.
>> Then secondly, we were more militarily competent, more experienced. The Rand army had never fought.
So everybody was upbeat >> very confident >> very confident that we'll overrun them >> quickly >> very quickly. So even my thinking >> I thought that we going to fight maximum 6 months then I go back to m I'll go and plead >> and say you see >> and then they readmit me >> because government would have backed me >> so >> you make a decision you get your gun your guns >> I steal the weapons and the uniforms and >> so come back and say I'm ready sir this time he came back in uniform >> and we moved to land >> so you were together >> we go. Yeah. From day one >> they put us he puts us in battalions and have the unit formations >> when Okay. So walk us through this. You get you refill in bar.
Now you go towards Miramama Hills where >> the Kajitumba Miramama Hills.
>> Then what happens?
>> The forces which in front engaged the enemy briefly. There were few soldiers at the border post, but they had some heavy pieces of support weapons. I think 120 mm motors, >> but they threw them and run away.
>> They didn't fight.
And then the whole column enters and we jump off. We get out of the buses and trucks and and people are so ecstatic.
>> And he said, They must have been very the guy goes on the jeep and addresses the tropes.
>> What does he say?
>> The people there was a derogatory word.
>> No one will ever call us this.
>> Yes. No one ever.
So he embarks on building the fighting units.
>> So he Where is he now? He's you said he jumped on top of the the bus of his jeep >> and he makes he he makes that statement.
>> He makes that statement and he tells them that the centuries of I mean the the decades of exile are over and now we have come to liberal country.
We expect the same discipline we had across here >> and the same bravery and patriotism here.
So >> how do how do the soldiers react to that speech?
>> Oh, the soldiers are just cheering him on. They don't want him to stop talking.
>> Some of the things by passed me because my was not so >> professional.
>> But what the mood?
>> The mood was upbeat. Everybody was confident that I want to defeat a man.
We didn't know that a man would bring in the congalles, the Belgians, the French.
That time we didn't know.
>> But we just want to face that time. So at this time were you still part of uh his protection unit?
>> Yes, I was still part of his but now he dismantles his protection unit >> because he had concentrated so many commanders in his protection unit.
>> Yes.
>> That's how I ended up with Kitari.
>> So you ended up with Kitari.
>> Yes.
in 11th battalion because he wanted me to go with somebody fight with somebody who knows me well >> and who would know my background and because he was very close to me and may think that these people might mistreat me or not understand me because they did not speak.
So he gave me somebody who would teach me slowly how to integrate >> in a people who speak one language which I don't know.
So Kitar was so gracious and he was one of the funniest people I've ever met.
For him everything was fun.
>> That's what his full name is it.
>> They call him in >> the lion that they scared of.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And he was a real lion. In combat, he would change completely and become another person.
>> In what sense?
>> He was dangerous. He was brutal. He was uncompromising to commanders. He was extremely violent and fearless.
>> When you say extremely violent, what do you mean?
>> That he would use all the firepower at his command and he was relentless and extremely reckless. He would push even when he was short of ammunition and once he had an objective he had to get it quickly and with so much violence concentrated artillery concentrated machine gun fire rockets everything and he was lucky that most of the battles he won.
So that is day one you are split into different >> I guess you call them battalions. M >> then there's day two the infamous day two >> day two we had already left by the time day two happened >> where had you gone >> we had gone to >> which we attacked on the 9 we fought >> so day one they split you >> then day two I guess in the morning that's when you move to go and attack Gabo >> yes very early >> we go towards Gabro but we were moving cautiously cuz we're not meeting resistance along the way >> asking ourselves we're in Kaj.
>> So people who don't know Gabido because they're going to be Ugandans who are >> is in the middle of the national park.
>> So so right now Gabido you're talking about Miramama hills >> that's where you started. So Gabido is maybe 200 kilometers.
>> No >> in the middle of the national park.
Maybe 100 maybe >> less than that.
>> Sure. G is much less than that because from Kaya is like 80 km >> then from there is like 40.
>> Mhm. So so you're talking but it's still quite a distance because of course >> distance because >> the hills it's not it's not you're not going straight. You're going up. You're going down.
>> We arrived on a week after 7th 8th there >> you had been moving. We had been moving slowly studying the terrain and then another group which was commanded by Kaka >> went to >> yes >> so we moved in two columns was near >> for them they reached and captured we went and then we fought in g >> how many how many are you >> by then we were three battalions which could put us at around and 2000.
>> Now, how many were you who attacked >> David? That's what I'm telling you.
There was the group of which was first battalion, you died during the st >> and then our group and the group of late >> Steven.
>> Yeah. Steven Dout 800 soldiers K3 800 thereabouts and same number with the other one. So like 2,400 troops almost half of the >> half of the force.
>> Half of the force.
>> So you obviously capture Gabro.
>> You capture Gabo, go in, eat, drink.
>> So Gabid is the military camp.
>> Military camp. Then that was the first time we fought the Congoles.
>> Yes.
and push us out of >> so how that's when you see congalles >> that was the first time to see >> so congalles you mean at that time they were called faz force a zas >> ah man talked to his friendu >> and what did he what did he >> the Ugandans invaded me >> exactly that Uganda these Ugandans have invaded us >> this is the time to show your brotherhood And then sent troops.
>> He actually sent I think it was with is it called he sent some of Yes. He they he sent some of his best >> best troops special forces >> his against >> against us but we gave them a lot of fire.
>> I remember that day I think they they even lit the the savannah with fire. M.
>> And unfortunately for us, the wind was blowing in our direction.
>> Oh no.
>> So everybody had tears streaming out of their faces.
>> They did that on purpose to >> Yes. Because they in the direction of the wind. So they smoke you out >> and you know the terrain it's like fighting.
>> No, it's it's it's it's a grassland.
>> It's a grassland. So it's very difficult to find cover.
>> Yes.
>> And on top of that, we did not have light armor armored personnel carriers. We didn't have we didn't have helicopter support.
They had tanks are carriers and helicopters.
>> So we went backwards, reorganized and attacked again on the 21st of October. This time we completely >> and then went beyond. I remember wanted to go and secure border posts so that we could have Tanzania also. So Rousumo that would be pretty much from the top of Randa to the >> Yes.
>> to the south of eastern Randa that whole axis.
>> Yeah.
So that operation didn't succeed. People fell back. I think both killed.
>> Yeah. I've I've heard from a few people who who talk about that.
>> But he was also a very good commander. M >> so there we begin now withdrawing from the park back to Uganda the famous >> yes >> we had no food >> what were you eating >> the animals just disappeared I remember Steven buffalo and we ate everything the bones >> you hungry >> so we withdrew came crossed the move came back to Uganda for reorganization >> at this time do you know that your friend and commander has passed away.
>> Yes.
>> How did you find out?
>> There were whispers in the ranks.
>> How would you have gotten that information?
>> I think the information Kar knew >> because we had radio communication before we ran out of batteries and what >> had known and did not tell us.
>> Mhm.
>> Told a few people then one person tells another secret leaks a bit.
>> Couldn't understand how he died.
It was a very very bad moment for me.
>> How do you feel? What are you thinking?
>> Because frankly he was the link between me and R.
>> Yeah.
>> If he had not been if it had not been for him, I doubt whether would have participated in that struggle.
>> So I felt like I an orphan.
My godfather is not there.
>> Where does that leave you?
One one side of me was saying cut and run.
>> Go back home. You're not >> this is not your fight.
>> This is not your fight. Part of me was that it is very unmanly and cowardly >> for your friend and mentor to die in the battlefield and you leave him there.
So my colleagues would ask me how do you feel? Do you want to go? Said no.
>> You mean your colleagues who are >> Yes. They say what do you think? We know you are in Toro. Your father is from Toro. Your mother is from Toro. You don't have London blood.
He said this is our struggle all of us.
You fought to liberate our country. I'm here to liberate your country and most importantly we have lost our commander here. How do we bury him and Iran discovered this?
Let's fight.
>> And that's what you were saying. Who are you having these conversations with?
with my friends. Alex is still alive and we are together. Kar is there.
>> Alex, >> the young man I joined the army with Alex Shumba.
>> Yes, he's now also there still.
>> Yes, he's there.
>> And you're having these discussions?
>> And we're having these discussions and then they kept looking at me. They couldn't believe it. They thought I was >> with suspicion >> with suspicion that maybe I might jump >> jump ship >> jump ship and run. So we went one operation after another until they relaxed you.
>> Which is I think really interesting because you of all people know that even within a a movement as united as the RPF or the RPA, the army, there were those little cleavages.
H there are those who came from Uganda.
M >> there are those who came from the DRC zer at the time. There are those who would come from uh Bundi. There are those who came from Kenya. There are those who came and even as Rondons all coming home. There were issues of who owns this movement, who is who gets the benefits of this movement, who gets this. Then there's now you.
>> Yeah. I was I and my other colleagues who were purely Ugandan.
>> How many? So it wasn't just you.
>> No, it wasn't just me.
>> How many Ugandans do you say?
>> There were others >> who are purely Uganda.
>> Also bodyguards of Rwanda commanders here.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Who went with their bosses. Their bosses asked them said, "Do you want to?" They said, "Yes."
So they were many. They were in hundreds.
>> Hundreds.
>> Yes. They were in hundreds. But what you're talking about what is interesting is that at the beginning it was not a problem of people who had come from other countries other than Uganda.
>> It was not people from Bundi or DRC or Kenya. It was what I could sense but which was resolved later.
People who thought they were educated and an elite against the peasant fighters.
>> Yes. those who had made their bonds through fighting but with no formal education.
>> Yes.
>> Then there was also the context which is also related to that of people who had become indigenized in Uganda. There are many who came even before 1959 >> but who were now in our ranks in the RPA.
>> They had become peasants and cattle keepers. Their parents had become peasants and cattle keepers in Luero area the cattle corridor. Yes.
>> Others from Masaka.
So those who would even speak Ruganda >> in Rwanda.
>> Yes.
>> Then there are those maybe that's where you belong who had been in the refugee camps.
>> Mhm.
>> Whose parents had been in refugee camps.
>> Their culture, the language, their was refined. They knew how to dance. The cultural elements.
So that secondary contradiction was there but it was resolved over time and people blended because they had a common cause.
>> But now the the issue of the young people came later because the reason why the bund and and congalles and Kenyan contradiction could not happen at that time is that all those young people were were recruits. They were young and they were not soldiers. they came as civilians.
>> So they could not take officer positions. They could not take command position simply because all of them were young and >> they had never fought before.
>> They had never fought before.
So maybe it came later on when they had participated in the fighting and training. Now they are junior officers, senior officers. They said now it's our turn now too. And remember many of the fighters from Bundi and the DRC were educated.
>> Many of them died especially in the in the those called volcanic mountains >> that area.
>> Talk about >> but those who survived became brilliant commanders. The commanders the one who died recently who had been commanding in Mozambique >> that court.
>> Yes. They became very good fighters, very good military administrators.
Others even went to the pro theundi.
>> Mhm. He's now the head of the army.
>> Uhhuh. That group later on became very good officers. They went to military colleges. So they said now it's our time.
Let's talk about your defeat and the withdrawal, the infamous withdraw into Uganda to lick your wounds.
Is that the very first time that you see uh uh uh Aande, they used to call him a PC?
>> Yes, >> that is uh >> now that's when he comes from the US.
>> That's pagame. That's when he does something very revolutionary that will never forget.
He reorganizes and rebuilds a broken arm.
>> You were there. You witnessed it >> with my own eyes.
>> How do you what actually happens?
>> What happened? Of course, the army with withdraws.
>> People have died that has injured.
They've been carried on stretches.
Others are dying of hunger.
And now what he does when he arrives, first of all, he had a very good relationship with M7.
>> He establishes a strong relationship with 7 and tells him this is the situation. We count on your support.
You know, >> did you see that? Is that is that is that uh >> he was he was every week he would come here almost at that critical stage because Uganda was supplying weapons and ammo. Uganda, the sick bay, the sick bays were here for treating the wounded and the malnourished. And in fact, some of them were and Kamuzi and then Kamuzi was the logistical center for food. The supporters of RPF would collect money and food take tomb because the N was on this side of the border. They would help make sure that the food goes to the fighters.
So there was intense mobilization, medicines, food, clothing and >> where are you at this moment?
>> At this m at this moment we are very near the border but on the Ugan side.
>> You were there you personally?
>> Yes.
>> How many soldiers are there now?
>> Now in our like 400 plus >> 400.
>> Yes. There was a family. I don't know whether it belong to that's where we were billeted my unit at that time.
>> So out of the 800 that you had started with >> Yeah. Not all of them had died. Others were sick >> and others were the majority were sick.
>> So they were just hungry. They were malnourished.
>> They couldn't walk. They couldn't stand.
really for example was a popular struggle >> people donated even poor people even people in refugee camps sent the little that they had >> and at this point you're just here trying licking your wounds trying to >> lick your wounds and and then training our other colleagues who had come when we were in the national park >> some people came from Tanzania >> on small boats and joined us >> and then when we crossed this side now a host of people large numbers would come at night from the refugee camps very young people >> to join us so we hid them and told them we're going to find space for a training wing then later on we took them back to Mara for training So they trained in western Uganda came back to Venus on the front lines. So after these preparations, >> how long are you close to the border?
>> Very very close. Because at night we would go back >> and do what?
>> Hit enemy positions and come back to Uganda.
>> No, but what I mean is how long were you there in that space? We we are there for like a month and a half. M >> and that's how we enter now the Christmas less than a month >> the Christmas of of 1990 finds us in intense preparations of another front >> cuz we had realized that it would be full hardy to keep this the tactics of frontal attacks against the enemy because he was mechanized with not and they had bigger numbers So this is where the now president Kagabi >> the then chairman of high command he had been already u agreed upon unanimously to lead the struggle.
>> There was no there are no rivals.
>> No everybody knew that he was the right man to do it.
>> Why?
>> One the army needed a highly disciplined officer to put it together again. Two, he had shared many secrets with Fred.
Three, he was close to the president of Ugard.
Four, he had the military qualifications and experience be able to do it. So, he had so many positives and because we needed Uganda so much and he was so close the president of Uganda, that was sorted. Then for own forces they they knew that was needed because discipline was necessary >> and as I told you he was stick discipline people would see him and so he reorganizes us. We form new units. We get clothes. We get food. M and now he's planning the attack on Roheniri opening new front and he sends to go and do the reconnaissance >> but and that was was that were you still with him at this point?
>> Yes, I'm still with >> So they you guys go >> we went in end of January >> I think like 20 we went on the 22nd.
>> Mhm.
>> We hid in the mountains for a couple of days. We attacked on the 23rd.
>> How many are you at this point?
>> Like 1,500. Now we we formed the the chairman of high command, General Kagam formed the columns.
So the battalions are being merged in two columns. You get two or three battalions, put them together so that you have a concentration of officers, a formations that are big enough and at the same time concentration of arms and armor. So you have a force that is strong enough to resist on its own without reinforcements >> and move quickly at the same time.
>> So Kar is in charge.
Who's who's his uh twice?
>> His twice at that time was a very young man called Kamu.
>> I think he died after the war.
>> And where are you in this the also still one of the probably the more experienced fighters?
>> Yes. All of us had companies.
>> So you're leading how many men >> that time? Like 120.
between 120 they always 120 150 >> so you're leading 120 >> well well armed >> what what language are you speaking at this point >> I'm speaking so >> because the majority of the soldiers had been here >> and the language for the military here is and English but I'm also struggling to learn >> fact what saved me is when we went deeper inside Rwanda >> and I couldn't speak Swahili neither would I speak English. So I had to speak >> as a commander of a 100 men.
What what your story is about Fred and and how and what it meant to be a commander. It it it the soldiers must see themselves in their commander to be able to then trust the commander's direction. M >> but you're obviously as no one hid the fact that you're not from around. You're not >> no they liked me. I was a sort of celebrity.
>> So no one >> you did not they did not they did not your soldiers did they did not they felt they did not feel a problem that >> this stranger. No, for them for them I was a some of them thought I was aw who had been born in diaspora had no chance of learning the language >> because people from western Uganda and from Rwanda we look alike some of our people look like you guys. So they said maybe this young man is a in fact when the more I would deny being the more it became funny sometimes you have to accept >> because the more you deny the more they would >> emphasize the fact that why you lying why are you lying we are no longer just claim your nationality say okay okay >> so We interacted a lot. Now I was beginning to learn some could speak >> and now when I learned to speak in president said but this guy can be a political commissioner.
So >> this is after the attack on said this guy can be a political commissioner.
They said why can be a political commissioner? said Okiri knows a lot of things in his head. I know him well. I work with him. Then secondly, it will help him learn.
You should have seen me teaching their history.
>> This is 91. This is what 92.
>> This is what 91 92 >> end of 90 end of 90. Beginning of 91.
>> You you've become a you're no longer a frontline troop. you are >> I'm a political commissioner.
>> M >> now of course by that time there was no big difference between the front the whole unit would move to the front >> nobody will remain behind.
>> So even when you had a base in Uganda all of you would move and go to Rwanda fight then come back.
So we I learned quickly and started teaching what happened in 1959 and and the role of the Catholic Church and the Belgian government in the first genocide cuz I believe the first genocide was 59 and those years and then I did not know at that time that there would be another genocide which will be more ferocious than the 1959 that brought the first refugees here.
>> And as a fighting again, the the the thinking is is is extraordinary because you you've seen you've you're fighting the issues, there's challenges.
How good were how good was how how good was the enemy at fighting?
The enemy was lousy at the beginning but had the backbone of French atar and of course the congalles. But when the congalles left after peace accord they caught on the land very quickly >> and we fought fierce battles in mut and >> what made them so good?
>> They had wood officers. M >> I remember if we fast forward we could go back if we fast forward and talk about the operations of 94 >> stop genocide.
>> There was an an officer called they had divided northern Rwanda into three operation regions.
>> There was ops Mutara which was commanded by Kamundi.
Then there was ops bumba which was commanded by brigadier general kavir.
>> Then opsenjeri which was commanded by major general vis.
>> Those were Belgian trained officers.
All of them their names ended with BM BM >> British military many Belgian militarymies.
So they knew what to do only that they lacked experience and we gave it to them >> by fighting >> by fighting and by seeing the way we're doing it. Whenever we dislodge them from a position overrun a town they would learn how we've done it and then whenever they would get a chance of capturing our weapons they would study it because they were not they were used to NATO weapons.
>> They do not understand the weapons from China and the Soviet Union.
So they would study them and then use them against us.
So we had battles of attrition in in especially where the terrain was favorable to them and the losses we took in mut were more than in Bumb because the terrain was favorable to motorized warfare.
>> So but finally the the RPF soldier was so tenacious that he couldn't beat him.
He couldn't defeat because they had no alternative >> going to the refugee camp going back to refugee camp in Uganda Kazin was not an alternative >> why not >> so we beat them with >> why why wasn't it and all they they I hear many people talk about that that we couldn't go back but actually you could >> you but you would go back to humiliation >> you know people who left Rand 1959 Many of them had been chiefs, they had been leaders, they had been properted and among Uganda communities, cows was something very very important.
>> So they could not had cows in Uganda.
They they would wait for the UN to give them food. You can imagine a person who has been a chef in Rwanda standing in a queue to receive huh >> people who who had a lot of dignity among their peoples and communities.
Others died out of frustration died and were buried in refugee camps.
So the feeling was that no you'd rather die rather than go back to that kind of life.
>> Yes.
>> And that's why the young people were ready to sacrifice. It was easy for me to teach them >> to train them and command them.
>> It was not like in Uganda where somebody say ah I'm going back to my my father is there our land is there is there I will survive.
But for them they said country is life.
Without my country there is no life for me. So it was very beautiful commanding such young people.
>> You enjoyed it?
>> I enjoyed it very much because I would I was not pushing them to do anything.
>> Just say go.
>> Yes. Every soldier every private was a commander in his own right because they had the consciousness to know that this is our job and we have to get it done.
That's the smooth. Those were units which I really enjoyed commanding.
Disciplined, clean, smart, motivated, easy to command.
>> Very easy to command >> at at no point. So 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, finally 1994. M >> uh during the last uh elections uh in uh 20 24 the last presidential ones. Uh I was I was I think I was among a team of of media people who then had the opportunity to go to your former command uh center Mindi.
>> Yes, that's where the high command is.
>> So that's where the high command was.
It's it's in a beautiful plantation >> tea plantation. So we went there and we were addressed by his excellency the president Paul Kagame and so we're sitting here and he's telling us where he was when he's informed he was watching the African Cup of Nations I think semi-finals and he's watching it and there's a next next to the a dining room it looks like a dining room there was a basketball court I don't know if you ever were you there is that right so you see that that area.
So he was telling us that he got news actually that even his young boy was there uh his his firstborn Iban was there >> and he gets news that the plane has uh been shot uh the president of the time Juvenel Habana and things are starting to happen.
When do you know that there is something of foot that these are not just killings these are now this is now genocide.
Uh that time I had moved from Bumba from uh the units that I was in and I had been transferred to Mutara >> to join 157 mobile force >> led by >> led by by that time and Morocco >> no by that time there And then I'm sleeping in my sleeping under his trenches.
>> So trenches >> my trench was very comfortable big with a mattress inside.
Then command you passes near my compound. I had a small compound where my trench was my body and he says wake up.
said I thought had run mad >> I get I said what are you say come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come come comeian man has died how that they have shot his so I put on jacket boots and I join him we cross river mumba and go to place you know all the officers and the whole night we are talking and we receiving radio messages from our communication you remember We had a battalion in Chigali.
>> Oh yes. The one that's uh as far as that 600 at the parliament.
>> Yes. Which was built at parliament.
>> Yes.
>> So the people from that battalion are giving us news and telling us they have killed the prime minister.
>> They killed.
>> So by morning by mid by midday on the 7th remember the plane I think was shot on the 6th if I remember properly.
By midday on the 7th, the moderate of top government officials, the moderate politicians who are not extreme had been murdered.
Now we asking ourselves >> murdered by who?
>> Murdered by so in way started killing >> and not just but also the the armed forces as well. The armed forces the armed forces at the beginning were reluctant. I think they not been given proper orders but the militias knew >> what to do. There are also stories I don't know how far through they are that if they even started killing before the man died that some people were killed. So which means the plot had been >> had been cooked >> had been cooked.
So people are killed throughout the night.
The the leaders of PSD, the leaders of PL, >> that's the Social Democrats party and the Liberal Party >> party.
Those were the the moderate voices in Wanda at that time. They had all been murdered and then they were tassling out with the Belgian peacekeepers.
Then the next day we told meanwhile the high command is telling us to prepare.
>> Prepare to do what?
>> Prepare to launch an offensive because President sent a long message saying people are being killed. This thing is highly organized and we have to defend our people. We cannot wait until we are not there and we have to move swiftly.
So they were I don't remember meetings of high commander that time. So we prepared the forces. So on the 8th is when we moved and captured early in the morning. We captured capturing we moved to and even secured now the border that is our unit 157 mobile was a large unit more than 3,000 troops.
So we move from Gabo all the way through.
>> What are you seeing?
>> What we are seeing now uh the enemy and a few people have been killed you know mut most people had run away >> by that time cuz we had been fighting there for a very long time more than 3 years.
So they we start seeing genocide after Kayon's a battle.
>> That's when we start seeing large numbers of people being killed and then on the way up to it was madness.
>> What are you seeing? What are you thinking that you're seeing?
>> We are stunned.
We had never seen anything like it because there was no discrimination.
Women, children, even animals, churches.
>> What do you mean even animals?
>> They would slaughter animals, not even eat them. Sometimes eat half a cow and leave it. Eat half a goat. You know, really diabolical actions.
So I remember we reached the Protestant area in Kongo.
There was a big Protestant church. It used to be the center of the Protestants in Rwanda.
People were still alive and they had been half slaughtered.
And then at one time when my commanding officers talking to General Kagami, he says, General Kagami says through the radio, he says this is a repeat of 1959.
>> You heard him. You heard him say that.
>> Yes, I heard him say that. That's the repeat of 59, but on a larger scale.
So it continues throughout Chumbu. From we move up to then from we join the takut then the other going to half of the force going to I go with bar to same thing >> it must have been a nightmare >> nightmare is an understatement cuz how do you keep your sanity.
>> I said it's it visits you once in a while and you remember those things. People say civilians were traumatized but I think even the soldiers themselves were traumatized because in all the conflicts we had been in we had never seen anything like that >> cuz you're a soldier so you you'd think that you're used to death that you've seen death.
>> Yes. You you can fight big battles people die but they are soldiers.
But this thing of finding children's heads brushed using emiri >> these clubs which had nails on them was something you can never forget.
You're probably taking your your grave >> and women disembowled and fascism all that happened >> and you're seeing this. I could see a country die, >> you know, Rwanda died and resurrected like Jesus Christ.
>> So, >> how do you how do you >> how do you maintain how do you maintain discipline? Because I'm I'm I'm assuming the anger you must have been feeling.
>> There were many cases of discipline. Of course, some of the young people is >> But even you, you're a human being. How do you >> We were very very angry but now as commanders we're looking at the situation that number one we shouldn't be behave like the criminals were fighting then secondly we will have a future and a nation to build.
So for us commanders we were trying to restrain our troops please don't revenge don't do this because at the end of it all we are going to win and then after winning we have to rebuild. That was the message at least from me and my immediate commanders who were there.
>> We are saying we have to show an example.
>> Our people should have hope in us >> as the only institution left standing cuz there was no other institution left standing.
>> Not the church.
>> The church had joined the >> the killers.
>> The killers. The the army had joined the killers. The special forces had joined the killers. The media had joined the killers.
>> Hmm.
radio saying come and kill, come and kill. Why are you lazy? You have not killed enough.
>> The programs were not stopping. No adverts, nothing.
>> Just >> 24 hours of just kill. You have not killed yet. You people injury, you are lazy.
Start the job. Chang.
>> It's ugly.
>> Ugly. Real ugly. It only takes a person who who saw it to understand the gravity.
Of course, it's for many people it's their country. They've read about it.
They've seen the pictures. But leaving it was another thing to get.
Thankfully after three months 100 days of fighting Kegali falls the country can take a a bit of a deep breath and restart.
And then there's now at this point are you what rank are you now?
Now we they had changed the ranks where we didn't have these lieutenant.
>> We had a provision of junior officer class one >> junior officer class 2 junior no provisional junior class 2 junior officer class 2 junior officer class one senior officer and a member of high command five grades.
>> Yes.
>> So I was a junior of class one. So when Kaggali falls obviously the the ranks are Yes. And I'm a captain.
>> So now you're a captain.
>> Now I'm a captain.
>> Now you're captain in the Randis patriotic army.
>> Army.
You know, it's something really interesting uh that I found is that actually your rank the major retired major it's uh actually from the RPA.
Oh my goodness.
>> So you you're you are a captain by this time. M >> are you because the war did not end just because it ended on the just because Kali fell. There were now the new the new war which is was because of course the the the enemy does not surrender it.
It runs to >> Zer >> and is now protected by not just Mobu but even the international community >> and even enemies of Randa the French are rearming them they're getting arms from the Balkans South Africa where is Aquir now in this new post liberation Rwanda is now in Bhutar still in 157 mobile force. We have a very big problem is there are people who have run >> the KBO >> Kho came after >> but now the immediately after capturing Utar >> we had to look for people who have survived >> and settle them. That was one of my responsibilities to those who have hidden in shambas, those who have crossed the border to those who have been attacked but they have not been killed. The enemy thinking that they dead but they are alive. We have to get them get medical treatment for them leers with the international aid agencies to fly some out for treatment. And it was a messy situation like I told you the country was dying.
Everybody has a problem.
and and and and all the social services have collapsed. So the army with it little medicine and few doctors is treating all those people who have survived but injured.
The water sources are polluted. Dead bodies are everywhere in rivers in small lakes in you can't drink water from the water reservoirs. you and then it was so sad that the western world at that time they asking very funny questions. Are you also killing people? When will you start multi- party dispensation? When are you going to hold elections?
There is no country.
You don't have medicine. You don't have aspirin. Are you asking me when I hold elections?
>> Yes.
>> Because now they still thinking along ethnic lines.
this Tootsie movement toots movement when are you going to allow the Hutus to win an election because there are many and thinking government again that's thinking of the western world so you have to swallow your anger and see in good time so slowly slowly the country rebuilds standing on the army the RPA the RP is virtually at that time is virtually doing everything medical resettling people justice law and order setting up a government in Chigi and then the UN is there you know enjoying themselves partying and a lot of money and so many vehicles now they bringing in reinforcements after the genocide >> I think by the time they stopped they were more than 6,000 troops with so many vehicles that the roads were blocked Unameir >> the unameir and people looking at them with a lot of anger.
>> No. Who were you looking at them with a lot of anger?
>> I was looking at them with a lot of anger because they were not there when we needed them most.
>> And now they're coming to enjoy the fruits of your struggle.
>> It was really a big failure on the part of the UN. I don't know whether Rwans would ever forgive the UN. Even now when you talk of you in Rwans feel a lot of >> because there was a general called Romeo Der he wrote and said we have militias who are armed give me more forces I can take out the militias at least but not fight the government army >> but we can disarm them >> h >> but we can disarm them. But we can disarm these militias because they importing machetes >> and the machetes are here.
>> The machetes are here. This there's something very big which is going to happen here. He said that's not our mandate.
>> Well, we we I think the lesson of of Africa is that we are on our own.
>> Oh yes, we are. The sooner we learn that, the better for all of us >> because there is a time if we can degrace a bit when there's a conflict in Libya. Africans try to solve their own problem by going to Libya and talking to Gaddafi and his opponents and finding a peaceful solution to the Libyan problem.
NATO refused and that meeting never took place and they deposed Gaddafi and then the al-Qaeda came in Libya. up to now it left Libya went to Moritania Nijerkina >> but then here's another >> we have nowaday because they refused to listen to Africa >> however so I was talking to ambassador Adonia >> and he was discussing he said you know now that uh bygones have become bygones that actually the Obama uh administration Um I had actually gone taken this question to the security council and the three African states had been told by the Africa group. So the three African states were Nigeria, South Africa, Gabon. They had been told not to vote to allow this no-fly zone and all that.
They told them what did these Africans do?
>> They go to the security council and confirmed this.
>> Yes. So it goes back to one of the things that I also you know people want me to be annoyed at the UN but I always say but we killed our brother.
Our brother killed us.
Yes. The white man might have put in place the conditions but we pulled the trigger.
So that that is how I am able to look at the UN and not feel I feel disgust but I'm more disgusted at myself. M >> the do you the the mus the white man did not tell a a a father to kill his son and a mother to kill the daughter and a husband to kill his wife and vice versa that was not >> it's a problem of the leadership on the continent >> and the choices that we make >> yes but that does not absolve the foreign powers who were behind that take for example for the French.
The French are on the security council.
The French are militarily and economically strong.
>> Sure.
>> The French came to fight us.
>> There was a Can if you remember >> who was in charge of the Rwanda artillery forces and >> he had taught them how to use concentrated artillery >> and they used it against us.
>> Yes. It's very effective.
Now you if I'm I'm I'm I'm lousy. I don't know how to look after my property and they leave doors open and I don't know how to close my curl properly.
>> It does not absorb you. It does not come and steal the thief.
>> The thief is a thief whether I closed my gate or not.
>> So the western world are thieves. We are poor keepers of our wealth. Yes, >> we are poor defenders of our people. We are poor keepers of our wealth as Africans. But that does not absorb the thief >> who takes advantage of our laxity >> to steal from us and to kill our people.
>> That is true.
But your journey does not end there.
It does not end in Randa. M >> it does not end and during the liberation of of kegali it you then get another mission as a panafricanist but before we go there now that kegali has been won why don't you go home 1994 >> I I wanted to go home I think I even wrote the chairman of I command and said I've finished but he said we'll give you an answer First wait are there people are thinking like you I said yeah there are some other Ugandans who also want to go where are they they're in units so we withdraw them from the units and take them to Kachari I don't know whether Kachari is there >> that that military camp in the city center >> actually it does not exist anymore as it >> I I think >> it has been turned into there's an area which is now um where they shot the Belgian peace you know the that Belgian contingent that was protecting the prime minister.
>> So there's the where they were shot there that has been turned into a memorial >> and then >> a part of the land has been given to the national university. They've put the school of architecture there >> and then another part of it has become a a space for events.
>> Okay.
concerts and whatn not >> were them and and the process because now I was I was close to the vice president and minister of defense then general kagami and many other commanders they said you could be useful to us as you wait for your >> you return back home >> yeah so I could lecture to officers be part of the reorganization process of the >> were you were you the most senior you a a Ugandan fighter.
>> Yes, I was. That's why they put me in charge of that group.
>> I was the most city and they knew that I I can maintain their discipline there.
>> And then but they knew that I >> How many fighters are left by this time?
Who are Ugandan?
>> Who are Ugandan? Like 350 >> are left. How many do you think died during the war for liberation >> number but they were many because at the beginning you were like 550 600 >> it's almost half >> almost half >> lost their lives >> yes >> fighting for the freedom of rand to call a country home >> yes and they were good because they had experience and they could they could operate weapon systems like machine guns anti-tank recon less weapons.
>> They were very good at RPGs. You know, N had a tradition of using RPGs.
>> Weapons. They were good.
>> They were good. Very good boys >> and they made a good contribution. I was proud of them.
>> So there these 300 Ugandans with you at the as their senior officer.
>> M >> this is around 94 95 >> 95. M >> 95 >> then how do you end up in Kong >> now in the meantime >> something is brewing >> because there were boys who were in RPA >> just like how this group was you know it's so interesting how these revolution become contagious studies the moambing struggle and set up his own outfit in Tanzania they come from from NASA Then from NASA takes over power in Uganda's NRM and then RPF is born out of the experiences of the NRM and the military training of NR they set up their own outfit. Then there the people from Kong also see has died and they say out of operation. We can also because Rwanda people of Rwanda ancestry in Congo were being treated very badly.
They were dosile. They had accepted this the position of second class citizen.
So they said now we can take advantage of Rwanda's security problems also to organize ourselves.
So that's how the process of the Rwanda liberation from begins and I can see that it's happening.
So by the time the October 1996 happens, I'm fully aware about what's happening because I was really integrated in the RPA system. There was no officer who do not give me audience and >> from the topmost all of them were very close colleagues of mine.
>> I mean you've been fighting since together since 85.
And what was interesting I came here the king of Toro died and I came buried after two weeks I reported back to >> this is when the king of >> 95 >> 1995 >> you came >> yes for the first time saw my parents and my family they were ecstatic they said the war is over said no I've not legally but I knew what was going to happen in >> Kong and you wanted to be a part of that.
>> And now that I was so angry about Congo, you know, Moubu was since we were children, we knew Mub was a kryptocrat, but on top of that, now he was helping the the West destroy the struggle in Angola.
So any effort to see the back of him, >> you were down.
>> I was excited. I was really excited. And my dreams about Congo was that after the liberation of Congo, Africa can because Congo is immensely rich.
We could use all those resources >> to provide power and electric power all these things. So it will be a powerhouse.
>> So you leadership and >> so you get involved.
>> So I get deeply involved >> and then you actually meet Laurent Desire Kabila.
>> Yes. I met him in GMA.
>> I saw him.
>> What was your reading of him?
>> I was not excited about him.
>> Why?
>> He did not, you know, a revolutionary you can meet serious leader.
>> He was not a serious leader.
>> He did not see much seriousness in him.
>> Why?
>> Because he was saying we move, we move, we capture, we move.
He would not engage you in the post dispensation. What would it look like?
what kind of political system we put in place.
>> You asked him.
>> Yes.
All all the elements of a popular struggle.
>> He never enumerated even one to me.
So you could see a person who was who had been waiting to be a leader.
>> Now he's being lifted. He just said so.
>> Was that a strategic choosing him? Do you now that you look back do you think that was >> I think it was a very wrong choice.
>> I think that was a big mistake on our part >> Uganda have accepted that person and supported him for such an important responsibility.
>> But what were your options?
I guess that's the problem, right?
>> Well, I I don't know because Congo had so many people in the diaspora.
If we had taken time to interview them, examine them and get I think we were in a hurry to resolve the pressing problems >> and we were also surprised at the speed at which the army was running away from the battlefield.
>> Yes.
>> And you could not just >> stop >> stop.
>> So the you keep moving, you keep advancing, >> keep moving, you keep advancing >> until you find yourself in Kinshasa. And >> this man that you did not uh >> properly engage and grade >> is in charge now. Now he's >> and he was a cunning maneuver despite his >> really >> first of all he he posed as a revolutionary leftist and he had never been he bumped into she was going to the Congo and she lots of things about him similar to what I'm telling you my appraise of him is that he was not he was an erratic fellow and he was not interested. He was interested in trading in minerals and stuff like that.
So when he gets there, he's still the Camila who was known to be a trader rather than a revolutionary.
>> So he but now he's a trader who actually runs a an entire country.
>> He runs an entire country and he's dealing with Lebanese gold dealers and gun runners. Were you in his office by then?
I saw him like three times in Jesus and but >> has he changed from the >> he has not changed from the government >> the guy from the guy from >> has he now sat in the in the seat and now he's sonic excellance >> no because you see people who are going to be leaders are seen early in their position the kagami I saw in 1985 Five was the same I saw when we recognizing when he was reorganizing the RPA in 1990 and the same who became vice president and minister of defense.
His thinking was the same. His ambition for Rwanda was the same.
You know he thinks big and he thinks strategically.
>> He's never satisfied with the status quo. But this guy was already very satisfied.
with the position of Congo which was in tatters the mining companies had run away they started running away was still there now with the civil war everybody had gone >> the country didn't have resources even no foreign reserves the army had run away >> but he was happy >> but he was so happy >> drinking champagne >> that the impossible had happened >> drinking champagne and having a good time having a good time in dancing.
>> My goodness.
>> So, >> but eventually obviously >> it was an opportunity that we lost >> because if we had had a serious leader >> so many things would not have happened after. Now you think about this now.
Obviously you 1997 you head back to Kgali write your is it a letter of decommission?
>> Yes.
>> And I'm graciously allowed to go home.
>> Did you feel a bit sad? Yeah, I felt a bit sad because up to now Rwanda is in my >> is in me the country where you >> I'd like to ask you having now served in two revolutionary movements. M >> I I would like to ask you what were the key differences because very it's very easy to say the similarities but what were the key differences that you observed whether it's in ideology discipline and how power is ultimately exercised.
Well, there were similarities, but now the differences came because of different realities, historical realities.
>> Mhm.
>> You're talking of Rwanda and Uganda.
>> No, I'm saying the National Resistance Army and the Rand Patriotic.
>> Yes. Now >> during the struggle in Uganda the bulk of the population was pro-reion in Rwanda the bulk of the population was convinced by government to be anti the rebellion. Now that made our struggle very difficult because when we would be moving at night they would shout and say have come fighters >> but it also means cockroaches but it was >> it means cockroaches. The cockroaches have come. So the B population corporation is running away and going to internally displaced camps ahead of us and our liberation zone has no people and but in the case of the NRA the the people in Buganda in Lo were bringing food bringing intelligence bringing their children during the struggle. So that made made it difficult for us. The people were brought in slowly.
So the the bulk of our support really was >> external >> coming from the Rwanda communities in the region.
>> So how does that change how you the ideology of the two revolutionary movements >> is that now the position because all of them were liberation movements.
>> The position of RPF was difficult more difficult than the position of N.
>> And what does that create?
That creates a an organizational problem. You remember when government was defeated or government and when we defeated them, they ordered the population to go to court and they all went.
Now we have to build confidence in the Rwan population and tell those guys that come home. We are not what they tell you we are.
We're not cockroaches that have horns and tails.
>> We're just like you.
>> We're just like you.
What brought the problems between different communities was bad politics. But to infuse that thinking among people who are largely uneducated is very difficult. That's why it was easy for them to be mobilized for genocide.
an education deficit, a cultural deficit.
>> There was a big problem with the Catholic church which had them because they go to church every Sunday but they telling them giving them the wrong ideology. So it was what you're saying is that if I can to paraphrase the the the ingredients it seems for a uh a sustained peaceful existence between organization and the and and the population was much more they were much more it was much more complex in Randa.
It feels that what you're saying is that in terms of the amount of work that had to be done.
>> Mhm.
>> That that the NRM was the Bible they say it was like a a seed planted in fertile >> infertile. It's easy.
>> It's easy.
>> And then the other one it was hard work.
>> Yes. And people observing were judging the RPF wrongly and harshly >> because they did not understand how hard it was.
>> Especially the historical context of the RPF struggle because when the Belgians were in charge, they had chiboko. They would beat up people to produce coffee >> and tea and tobacco in Rwanda.
>> And these people ran away and they were using tootsis chiefs to do that. So they built this hate, this hatred started those days when the agro populations who we call hutu came here in Uganda. They went to Congo, they went to but largely here. They still here many of them they have blended with the Ugandan population. Now they are Ugandans.
Now after that now come 1959 close to independence it becomes worse. Now they turned to the kanders of this world and told them that your enemy is those who have been beating you for centuries >> and who are your kings. So we find a toxic political environment when we enter 1994.
>> That we used to appeal to them treat their sick people but they say no. M >> do you think that because it was >> you know good ideology takes time to grow bad ideology is very easy >> to use to manipulate a an uneducated population.
>> Do you think you know one of the things that they say is that uh diamonds are created through pressure.
Do you think that when you look at the NRM as an organization because its message was so wellreceived that maybe the the work that then had to be, you know, to inculcate this kind of ideology that maybe because it was so easy that maybe it did not how do I say this? I'm trying to give it a a proper sense.
When I look at the RPF and the work that they've it it has had to do to become a broad-based movement, it was never I remember even when you guys were fighting you you say that they were they're calling you cockroaches and >> so the amount of work that has had to be done to create a country that people can live in that can and and and work in and and and and the ideology that has had to be brought into the country. It has created a very strong organization because if if not things would have gone back to where they were versus when I think I look at NRM now in Uganda it was the UNLA had done such a great job on your behalf >> of angering people so much that everyone was already team NM.
Do you think that because from the get-go on one side they were on under constant pressure to prove that they belong to prove that they are nationalist movement to prove that they are not >> the the demons that the Catholic Church says they are to prove that they are not the demons that Kaibanda says they they are and the French are saying >> that somehow they needed it it created a much more discipline post liberation political organization versus here where it was already >> here it was not totally like that. We had a test of it but not at the magnitude of Rwanda. M >> remember we also had a rebellion in northern Uganda >> over people who had been told that they marshal they supposed to dominate the army and therefore government >> and we had a long war very brutal >> it was an ideological war as well >> of saying no every Ugandan can be a soldier Ugandans from west N from Kamoa from Buganda have right between their army, perspective government and and and be rich.
>> So to we fought a very bitter ideological people looked at the military aspect of it >> but even changing the hearts and minds of people to embrace the NRM as theirs.
It just happened recently >> a lot of effort from our commanders and political leaders and party leaders. So we know >> what Rwanda faced and how deep it was and how difficult it was because we saw it here.
It was a problem even here in in central Uganda. There were people who thought that from 1962 in independence that central Uganda had a special status so they should be treated special as opposed there are people from other parts of the country >> and also us who come from kingdoms we're also saying the people from Toro then especially >> so a question of national unity >> was a very very top of the agenda of the nationalist movement so we had to be very smart on hand to make sure that these people genuinely join the NRM and own it.
>> I'm going to ask you one last question cuz I've taken so much of your time.
There is something that I'm I'm sure you you you see and it breaks your heart and that is when the two brother armies go to battle when they are in Congo and the brother is shedding the blood of a brother.
You're one of the again 600 men who fought and you're one of the 300 men left who fought on both sides from Uganda.
It must be heartbreaking to see where sometimes the state of our relations are, where borders close, where people get arrested, where trade is strangled, where arms and bullets are.
Where do you think we've gone wrong?
We've gone wrong in many aspects.
First of all, the the the the interpretation of the problem because for people who engaged in the DRC problem for a long time, their interpretation of the problem was different.
Rwanda had what it called a national security crisis across the border.
So Rwanda wanted to intervene physically to make sure that what happened in 1994 doesn't happen again.
On the other hand, Uganda was also drawing from its history and the argument of Uganda was let Congal liberate themselves because our experience with the Tanzanians when they came here and kicked out liberated us from IDM.
We had problems by the time they left we were sick and tired of them.
>> Their discipline was very low by the time they left.
So, President's thinking was that if we do the job for them and we can do it very well, Uganda and Rwanda are good at it can remove the leadership, we can train the army later on, but them doing it themselves. I think in my thinking I may be wrong that is where the disagreement started from.
Now, but there was also another element of the discipline of the officers and men who are there.
>> What do you mean there >> is that when somebody is a thousand km away in an operation zone, he can call his boss in Kala or in Chigali and say I'm doing this when it's not what they are doing on the ground.
So what I heard is that people who were sent to the field were not briefing their principles giving them the right information which led to their fighting. Anyway, whatever the cause was the interests of the friend of the people of Rwanda and Uganda Parama because we can't afford to be enemies.
God put us together. We have a beautiful history together and we should be able to enhance it and resolve it. We resolved more bigger problems then.
>> But why has this one been so longstanding?
>> You see, when uh a conflict which is manageable becomes violent and people shed blood, >> it takes on a new dimension of mutual suspicion.
We come here, we see it, we shake hands, but we go back and say maybe there's something that one is planning maybe so and there are people also who go in our ears and tell us no what they saying to those guys they not so but I know over time the interest of our people will prevail cuz there is no way we can do without each other and the young generation are not interested in in our politics they are interested in trade They are running big companies. Your generation and the generation below you want to trade with Kenya, Uganda, they want to trade with Tanzania. They want trade with Bundi. So they will finally their voice will become so big, so loud and critical mass of people that want peace, security and trade will be so big that these differences will fade away.
>> Yeah, >> that is my thinking.
>> And unless the leadership which is now goes back to you because guess what?
It's your generation that has still uh you still have your your fingers on the on on the reigns of power. Unless your generation does something else that then moves the escalation uh uh uh uh trap to a point where now we can't even where young people cannot even fix the problem. cuz you talk about you know once blood is shed it changes everything.
>> Yeah. They the >> now my worry is before uh the young people are able to get that critical mass that you're talking about that there might be another mistake.
>> No history has taught us a lot of lessons. The people who took over independence, they had a lot of deficits >> in terms of democracy, learning how to hand a state. Africans had not handled the state for a very long time. But we learned from the mistakes and we built on them.
>> Rwanda, I can say that for Rwanda because I'm >> It's one country that you know quite well. It's one country that I know quite and I love very much because they close to me and now my daughter is half Randa and half Uganda. So Rwanda has a very interesting group of young people, a generation like two generations under RPF >> who are tech surv who are well educated and who have traveled the world.
I am very very excited about them that they can handle the post dispensation very well.
Similarly here we have very very ambitious those two generations we're talking about. So it will be easy for us to hand over to them because we know our countries will be in good hands. I have no question. I'm not worried.
>> They are exposed. They know what's happening in the world. They understand the geopolitics here and they are very ambitious and they know that wealth is not in Europe. Wealth is here and peace should be made here and security should be guaranteed here.
>> No, before I say my goodbyes, I want to extend a a formal invitation to Kegali.
Yeah. You told me that you haven't been there since 2015. That's 11 years.
Buana.
>> No, no, no, no, no. You need invitation, sir.
>> You need to come and see the country that you fought for.
>> I will. And thank you so much >> and on behalf of Randon's and friends of Randa Asant Sana.
>> Thank you so much >> and thank you for organizing this interaction in this critical time of >> remember the horrors of genocide and the commitment that it should not happen again. Now that you've come to me, I feel very grateful and indebted that you have reminded me the struggle went through especially 94.
>> So thank you and I will come.
>> Absolutely. Thank you so much Aandanda.
>> You're welcome.
>> There you go.
hey.
相关推荐
They Said Flight Was Impossible—Then Two Bicycle Mechanics Changed Everything#wrightbrothers
umars997
526 views•2026-05-30
#SeamansAct1915 #MaritimeHistory #LifeAtSea #BoatShitCrazyX #SaferWorkEnvironment
BoatShitCrazyX
859 views•2026-06-01
The British Crown Was a Death Sentence
BritanniaAftermath
699 views•2026-05-31
The Aztecs Paid Taxes With CHOCOLATE 🍫👑
historical_club
899 views•2026-05-30
Black Women Were Banned From White Suffrage Groups
Peoplediduknow
782 views•2026-05-31
A Volcano Created Frankenstein — And Killed Summer for a Year
TheDarkSideOfSmth
389 views•2026-05-29
Born into slavery in Beaufort
RoadsanRoots
613 views•2026-05-31
50.32 Judah And Israel Split / Jeroboam's False Religion - 2 Chronicles ch. 10-11
smyrnachristianchurchkokomo
107 views•2026-05-29
