Worldwide Day of Genital Autonomy live from Cologne

Ajouté : 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]Hello.

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[00:32:58]It's wonderful if everybody on the live stream can hear me. Nobody >> in the place. Yeah, just waiting for the technicon to testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing, testing. The PA Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The testing. Hm. Maybe only the people on the live stream can hear me. I'm so sorry. I uh it would be very nice if we still wait a few seconds till the people on the place can hear me as well because the PA doesn't work at the moment and nobody would pay on the place without working microphone here on Ron Kaliplat. next to the Cologne Cathedral. We have wonderful weather.

[00:34:05]It's noon. It's absolutely the opposite situation than last year. You might remember when we when we went into floods of rain. It was very that we can start.

[00:34:33]>> No.

[00:34:34]>> Ah, >> something doesn't work on the live screen maybe now.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah.

[00:34:41]>> Sorry.

[00:34:42]>> Okay.

[00:34:57]Okay, at least a little bit of patience.

[00:35:02]>> Okay, then we we need now two microphones.

[00:35:06]>> Oh, >> yeah. Then we need to check up if the sound is working on the live stream as well. Now everybody on YouTube please checking if this the voice is okay.

[00:35:22]Yeah, we can start. Wonderful. Then I'm going to start. Welcome everybody on Worldwide Day of Genital Autonomy 2026 here in Cologne next to Cathedral on Rang Paliplats and welcome everybody on the live stream. Welcome.

[00:35:45]It's wonderful to have so many friends from many countries and continents coming especially to Cologne to celebrate 14 years of the Cologne ruling. What is this day about? We think I think we should explain and reexlain every year again because many people don't know listening to our live stream or many people would like to forget especially here in Germany what happened 14 years ago when the reacher court here in Cologne decided that a non-thropotic forkan amputation of a child is an offense is a violation of the kid's right to bodily integrity. It's not a parental right to cut something off of children's genitals. This is this was a great impulse for people affected here in Germany to come out to speak out to get the feeling that people here and start to listen and be sensitive start to be sensitive to this taboot issue.

[00:36:54]Well, the reaction from most of most of media and politics in Germany was never again, never again a further cologne ruling in the future. And to achieve that goal, they had to abolish the legal base on which the regional court in Cologne had ruled. So you must know since the year 2000 in Germany exists a right of the child of a violent free upbringing.

[00:37:25]So it was a real problem how to allow a violation to a child's body when this right of bodily integrity and a violent free upbringing of a child still exists.

[00:37:40]So half a year later, the German Parliament made a new part into that right directly in the same paragraph of a child's violent free upbringing saying that it is up from then a parental right to agree into a foreskin amputation of a child. They called it circumcision of the male child. in that law in German law since then is not described what circumcision exactly means no anatomic details at all and not it is uh neither it is really described what means male child we think what they meant is child with a penis since now in Germany a child with a penis parents are allowed to cut something off its genitals if it's a child without a penis the situation is much much much different.

[00:38:39]Um, if it's a child with so-called female genitalia, we have a criminal court even where everything independently from the degree of severess is a criminal assault. And if it's a child with ambitious genitals, we have at least the restriction since some years that it's not a parental right to agree into a surgery to make ambitious genitals into male or female. That's German reality. Three different laws depending on the sex organs at birth.

[00:39:13]Well, that might be depressing, but what still is alive is that spirit of colon ruling that it might be possible to protect all children equally. And that's what WW Dogga is about and what we're going to celebrate. I'm very happy we're all here from Germany to to have you all here that you had made such an e effort to take part again and there are new ones as well. So we're very curious to hear all the other speakers. Well, if you want to speak just tell us we do it spontly today. Go to Giz Linda or ask me then we will announce the next one.

[00:39:49]Yeah.

[00:39:52]So um I propose who could be the second who would like to speak.

[00:39:58]I know there are many of us. Just go ahead.

[00:40:02]>> Wow. We are very happy to have David Smith. He's the chairman of 15 Square in England. Is the sound okay still? Okay.

[00:40:12]Just uh >> ah we have a more elegant elegant >> design. Oh, it doesn't work. So let's take the other one again. David, we're very curious to hear all the news from England. You are several people here this year again.

[00:40:32]>> Thank you very much. And we will take the microphone on your >> Yeah. Welcome David Smith 15 square.

[00:40:43]>> Thank you very much Victor.

[00:40:47]Right. Testing, testing.

[00:40:52]Hello everyone. And um I am very pleased that the weather is much better this year than it was last year when I was giving this when I was giving this presentation holding things under a plastic sheet. Uh my name is David Smith and I am the chief officer of the UK charity 15 square. 15 Square helps men who have been damaged either physically or psychologically through circumcision.

[00:41:21]And I'm delighted to be present here today in Cologne in front of this magnificent cathedral. And it's one of the most renowned European Gothic buildings which was declared a world heritage site in 1966 and which is now Germany's most visited landmark.

[00:41:40]Construction began in 1248 but was halted around 1560 with attempts to complete construction restarted about 1814.

[00:41:52]But the project was not properly uh funded until the 1840s.

[00:41:57]I think you can see it took long to get funding and this is a funding is a is a a an issue that we all struggle with and it was an issue even then.

[00:42:09]The edifice was completed to the original medieval plan in 1880 and these magnificent towers for its huge spires give the cathedral the largest facade of any church in the world.

[00:42:23]That's the end of my history talk. There are several parallels to be drawn with the cathedral and the organizations represented here today. It has taken time, but we have grown from strength to strength. For me, once being the only British person to attend this important international networking meeting, there are now a number of Brits gathered here in this in the square as well as others who have traveled from all parts of the world.

[00:42:53]But the creation, success and development of this annual gathering is due to the dedicated team here in Germany, excuse me, who have pioneered the event, which like the edifice behind me has undoubtedly developed from its original objectives and plans and which will with growing support continue to raise awareness internationally and make our subjects matter in all its various aspects more openly discussed.

[00:43:25]15 Square is a men's health and advocacy charity based in the UK as I said earlier and we advocate on behalf of men who have either been affected by circumcision or are being treated for conditions affecting the foreskin.

[00:43:40]We give a voice to affected men.

[00:43:44]Advocacy is the art of supporting, defending, or representing an individual's rights, views, and interests, often by helping them express their wishes and access services.

[00:43:58]It ensures people are involved in decision regarding their health, care, and well-being, providing confidential and independent support, often for free.

[00:44:09]And there are many advocacy organizations throughout the world working towards regulation of non- therapeutic genital surgery.

[00:44:18]In most western countries, the legal and ethical treatment of non- therapeutic genital surgery, it differs depending on whether the child is categorized as male, female or interex.

[00:44:30]And this inconsistency has deep historical, cultural, and political roots rather than being based on coherent moral reasoning.

[00:44:41]Female genital cutting has come to be viewed in Western law and policy as a human rights violation and a form of gender-based violence largely due to feminist and anticolonian advocacy from the 1970s onwards.

[00:44:57]It is criminalized even for symbolic acts like nicking. Regardless of parental consent or cultural motivation, girls are protected because their cutting is framed as cultural harm.

[00:45:11]Interex infants are often subjected to genital surgeries aimed at normalizing appearance to male or female norms.

[00:45:20]These are defended as medical or psychosocial interventions rather than cultural ones even though they aren't often medically necessary.

[00:45:30]Human rights advocates and some countries now recognize that these practices as rights violations and they have begun to restrict them. Interex children are increasingly protected because activists have shown such surgeries are not medically necessary.

[00:45:49]Male circumcision, by contrast, has long been normalized in Western medicine, especially in countries like the United States, where it was historically promoted for supposed hygiene or moral reasons.

[00:46:03]Religious justifications have also influenced legal tolerance.

[00:46:07]It's therefore treated as culturally mainstream despite being physically more invasive than some banned forms of female uh genital mutilation.

[00:46:18]For boys, routine circumcision is not classified as mutilation and it's legally permitted, particularly when framed as religious or preventative health care.

[00:46:29]I know Victor spoke about that earlier.

[00:46:32]Laws spanning genital alteration rely heavily on how medical necessity and sex are det are defined.

[00:46:40]For girls, almost all non- therapeutic procedures are defined as mutilation and strictly prohibited.

[00:46:47]For interex children, the law has been slower to respond because such surgeries are often performed quietly under medical authority rather than cultural custom.

[00:47:00]Boys remain unprotected mainly because their cutting has been historically normalized, religiously defended and socially med medicalized.

[00:47:11]Even though the ethical logic used to permit it doesn't withstand consistent scrutiny.

[00:47:18]In the UK, there are currently no legal requirements that circumcises be medically trained or even to have proven expertise and non-medical circum circumcises are entirely unregulated.

[00:47:34]We do not know how many such procedures are performed annually or the degree of harm as there is no requirement for any follow-up or audit and the boys themselves are too young to complain.

[00:47:50]It is now being recognized more widely that non- therapeutic religious and cultural circumcision is a breach of children's rights.

[00:47:59]We want to see the same protection for girls bodily autonomy extended to boys.

[00:48:06]In a survey, 62% of Brits would support a law prohibiting the circumcision of children for non-medical reasons.

[00:48:15]only 13% would oppose it.

[00:48:19]There is now growing concern among doctors that existing ethical principles of non-therrapeutic childhood surgery should no longer include an exception for non- therapeutic circumcision.

[00:48:32]And yet calls for regulation fall on deaf ears.

[00:48:38]Everyone has a voice. We must harness it and use it. If we want change, we need to make our voices heard.

[00:48:48]Excuse me. Not only from those affected, but from family members and friends.

[00:48:54]Those men who have been brave enough to admit that they have been damaged either physically or psychologically through circumcision have faced many hurdles.

[00:49:03]Complaints are either not recorded or they dismiss or men have faced ridicule.

[00:49:10]However, change is starting to happen as you will hear today.

[00:49:15]You can help in many ways.

[00:49:18]Tell your stories. Contact your members of parliament. Support advocacy organizations either in practical terms or if you can't support them in practical terms, donate to them. We need your money.

[00:49:34]As a united front, we can make change happen.

[00:49:39]Mahatma Gandhi once said, "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you.

[00:49:46]Then they fight you, then you win." I think we are now on the third and hardest phase where they are fighting us. But with with determination and working together, especially internationally, we will win. Thank you.

[00:50:14]I would like to now hand over to my colleague from the United Kingdom, Jason Metas. Uh he is my deputy at 15 Square and he will tell you a little give you a little bit of information about our stories campaign.

[00:50:38]Just come close to the mic.

[00:50:39]>> Testing. Testing. Can everybody hear me?

[00:50:42]>> Excellent.

[00:50:45]>> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:50:48]>> Just go ahead.

[00:50:49]>> Okay.

[00:50:51]My name is Jason Metas and I work with David Smith at 15 Square. Uh, I'd like to talk a little bit today about our stories campaign, which we believe and we hope will make a difference in dispelling the myth that men do not complain or that there are no people who stand against this. I was first introduced to the topic of genital autonomy 10 years ago. Whilst I had heard a passing mention of FGM, the harms associated and the cultural practices and social pressures to continue traditional blood rituals, I'd still never really considered male circumcision.

[00:51:26]I'd never heard those conversations, and intuitively to me, the concept alone was uncomfortable. But my curiosity outweighed my initial discomfort. In retrospect, I think that this is true for most individuals when it comes to discussing deeply personal and intimate issues. There is the perfect storm for a difficult conversation. Sexual health, moral philosophy, and as I would soon learn, men's mental health.

[00:51:52]Unfortunately, the religious and social environment only makes this more complex as those affected are put in positions of having to defend their struggles or exhaust themselves by informing each other uh each individual that they open up to about the background to this issue. This is true even when they are discussing their health with professionals as we've seen countless times with our service users.

[00:52:16]As I started to explore this concept, I found the most intuitive approach would be to listen to those who pract who have uh advocated male circumcision and to listen to those who are against. The fours included well-meaning sentiments of social initiation, identity, and duty. All very benign and even virtuous in most settings were it not for the arguments against. Very quickly, I heard a myriad of firsthand accounts from men that had written into 15 Square with serious complaints. Most subjected to the practice against their will at a young age before they could consent, and many of them admitting that they had never publicly talked about their feelings out of fear of ostracization and social stigma and a sense of vulnerability.

[00:53:04]These stories shocked me whilst at the same time making absolute sense. And we see this selfcensorship in men's health even without the issue of genital autonomy.

[00:53:15]One of our key projects this year will be the release of the 15 square stories project. This project is an anthology of anonymous stories submitted to our organization that feature the lived experiences and qualitative doc qualitative documentary accounts of the men and their families who have experienced this. These will a be available after our official launch uh at the end of this month. So please uh if you are curious about the lived experiences of men, keep an eye out on our website.

[00:53:44]Our hope is that if more people talk, the more that the harm can be documented and inform research.

[00:53:50]These stories of men affected must become part of the social zeitgeist and open to free discussion. Whilst we firmly believe that a 30-cond Google search will point individuals to communities of others that have been negatively affected, we hope that the willful and intentional ignorance perpetuated by some public figures will become become self-evident in coming years to those who are familiar with this subject.

[00:54:16]This year in the UK, one prominent pro-ircumcision fanatic was on record for at least the third time stating the following. I have never heard anyone from cutting cultures complain about circumcision or words paraphrased to that effect. Each time he has made this claim, he has been midway through debates and discussions with individuals from people from cutting cultures. Three times he makes the argument to three different people from cultures that he claims he has never heard from.

[00:54:48]This is a modern story of the boy who cried wolf and this defense is beginning to crumble.

[00:54:54]I would like to finish by reading some of the anonymous words submitted by men as part of our upcoming campaign launch.

[00:55:00]All of them focused in some way on the social environment and the challenges that our society has burdened these men with. I hope that you will share these stories and use them to inform professionals and policies uh policy makers in the coming months.

[00:55:16]The first extract.

[00:55:19]I grew up deeply ignorant about everything sexual or intimate in a culture that treated sex as a source of great shame. The depths of my ignorance are shocking to me now how much was hidden and never spoken of.

[00:55:32]Extract two.

[00:55:34]This practice traumatized me and I have been mocked by my own family for raising concern about it. I feel absolutely broken. I feel helpless, defective, and punished. I just don't think I'll come to terms with it. I have been told that it was to stop me from feeling pleasure.

[00:55:51]Imagine wanting to deprive someone else of life's greatest and simplest joys.

[00:55:56]Culturally, I have cut ties with my extended family due to it.

[00:56:01]Extract number three. Over the last 20 years, I have come to understand the massive ignorance and deception that allows our society to collude with the legal mutilation of boys genitals, the minimizing of harms inflicted, the denial of the considerable risks of surgery on infants and young children, and the denial of any adverse consequences, and the daily discomfort that victims experience.

[00:56:24]Extract number four.

[00:56:26]Sexually, I have always felt diminished.

[00:56:29]Masturbation as a teenager was often painful as it left uh as the cutting left me with too little skin. For years I thought that this was an indication of intense arousal. But I came to realize it was because so much skin had been cut away and leaving the tight and intensive scar tissue.

[00:56:47]Extract number five.

[00:56:49]And this I actually found a a very uh interesting uh logical uh approach to this practice.

[00:56:57]Parents have two options to circumcise or not. Their child once grown will have a preference to be circumcised or not.

[00:57:06]That gives us four possible outcomes.

[00:57:08]There are two fortunate ones where the child grows up either wanting what they have or not wanting what they don't. And I won't linger on these, but I call them fortunate because the meaning of circumcision depends entirely on how each person interprets the religious, cultural, and bodily significance, none of which can be known in infancy. So what happens when parents get it wrong?

[00:57:29]When a child is not circumcised and wants to be or is circumcised and doesn't want to be child A and child B.

[00:57:38]Both are unhappy but one of them still has a choice. Child A whilst he can't turn back time can still choose circumcision later in life giving the act genuine personal significance if that is what he wants. But child B is in a very different position. The procedure is irreversible. So his choice was taken permanently. Both children pass through the door that their parents choose. The difference is that child A's parents have left him a key just in case they've chosen the wrong door. But child B has no such key. He must forever live with his parents' mistake, locked out of his own choice for his own life. What are the consequences for child B? The truth is that society has very little idea. And it's not surprising. There are no records, no oversight, no regulation, and crucially, no mechanism for children to report harm years later. That said, I know a few child bees, and I want to share what their lives look like.

[00:58:38]I sometime that's the end of that quote.

[00:58:42]I sometimes think that how differently this issue would be treated if there were no religious and social or cultural considerations. Would we take the complaints of men more seriously? Would we show support to men rather than presume that they are outsiders or strange for speaking out? Reports from some circumcised men describe feelings of anger, grief, loss of bodily autonomy, anxiety, and distrust. The reality is that the social environment has created a unique challenge for us working in this space. But there, if there is one thing that I truly believe, the words of those affected have value and they have a huge impact. I encourage you all to help amplify these voices.

[00:59:20]I'd like to leave you finally with some closing words from one of our anonymous extracts. Again, these will all be shared in the coming month in our stories uh campaign. Uh and I hope you find it as inspiring as I do.

[00:59:35]Eventually, society is going to take uh is going to understand and take seriously the impact of circumcision on children and how it affects their development and the consequences later in life. I'm going to play my part in making this a reality by healing myself through compassion and understanding and doing everything I can to support others on their journey to recovery.

[00:59:57]Thank you very much.

[01:00:07]The stories that uh we have collected uh have been in high demand from people who are working in the areas of policy change in the UK. Uh and we really hope that in the future they will be factored into decision-m by uh well-meaning policy makers. Um and I hope that you will all spread the message out there.

[01:00:26]uh one person who has worked incredibly hard in sharing his story and his message uh is here with us today. Um and I'd like to thank David Laws for the work that he has done uh not only in sharing his story but going one stage further and publishing his own book on this issue and how it has affected him.

[01:00:43]So, I'd like to introduce David Laws, uh, a member of 15 square and Jason England London.

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[01:05:27]Thank you very much.

[01:05:29]Next speaks um Mark Bradford from Int Finland. Very welcome close to the microphone. I will Is it good for you?

[01:05:43]>> I think it's good. Yeah.

[01:05:45]>> Uh good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to join and speak to you today. Uh, my name is Mark Bradford with Intact Finland, Induct Aru, and I'm originally from the US, but I've lived in Finland for the past decade. Um, general autonomy for all is not a new value of mine. Uh, but as a victim of America's nationwide culture of genital of children's genital cutting, it's one I wish to make clear here today. I'm happy to be a member of the Finnish Left Alliance, whose party platform calls for the end to all medically unnecessary surgical operations.

[01:06:19]uh on children's genitals as well as reparations for those who have had these operations in the past.

[01:06:26]I have experienced widespread support for genital autonomy from the people of Finland and yet all children are still not protected from genital mutilation equally. I have noticed certain gaps in Finnish people's knowledge of the culture and medical practices of genital mutilation and its effects on the individual. And I hope the audience will understand if I give this next part of my speech in Finnish. Fore!

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[01:09:29]The journey to full genital autonomy for all children globally may be long and complicated as genital mutilation is part of all global cultures in one way or another. I encourage all of you to consider what forms it may have been normalized in your own culture and to find someone to ask about their own experience of it. We are not uncommon.

[01:09:49]We are not difficult to find. Thank you for listening.

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[01:14:00]>> California. Tim Hammond from the US.

[01:14:02]Welcome Tim Hammond.

[01:14:12]>> Yeah. Is that good?

[01:14:13]>> Yeah. Just approach the microphone.

[01:14:15]>> Everyone can hear me. Okay. Great.

[01:14:18]Well, greetings from California. Thank you for the sunshine, by the way. Um, and I want to thank everyone here who has worked so hard to make this annual event possible year after year after year.

[01:14:32]Um, I bring you greetings to everyone here, to those on live stream, and to those who might be listening to me in a recording.

[01:14:44]My name is Tim Hammond. I'm executive director of the genital autonomy legal defense and education fund in California.

[01:14:53]It's my honor and pleasure to speak with you today on this the 14th annual worldwide day of genital autonomy.

[01:15:02]I want to take this opportunity to offer you a long-term perspective on the progress of our movement based on my 35 plus years of working for children's genital autonomy.

[01:15:17]When I became involved in the struggle against childhood genital cutting in 1989, we were known only as anti-ircumcision activists.

[01:15:29]Today, of course, our struggle is known as the genital autonomy movement. The movement that unapologetically proclaims bodily integrity to be a basic human right and that every child should grow up with an open future to autonomously decide for themselves how much of their genitals they get to keep.

[01:15:56]In those early days, the term inactivist did not exist. Many in the general public were uninformed about genital anatomy and the many harms of circumcision.

[01:16:09]We were seen as lunatics and people called us fringe.

[01:16:15]We were laughed at or worse, we were ignored.

[01:16:20]And in some cases, we were unjustly labeled anti-semitic in a feeble attempt to discredit and to silence us.

[01:16:31]Despite the fact that about a third of this movement is composed of thoughtful and compassionate Jews.

[01:16:40]At that time, the movement was largely concerned with male circumcision and primarily confined to the US where this highly profitable medicalized social custom was and still is endemic.

[01:16:57]No coherent international movement existed.

[01:17:01]The number of identifiable people leading the US movement could be counted on two hands.

[01:17:08]The internet was in its infancy and we communicated by mail, in person, telephone and by facts.

[01:17:19]As the movement grew, we found common cause with African women fighting genital mutilation as well as allies fighting interex genital mutilation.

[01:17:29]Today, the movement is truly international with scores of leaders on several continents and millions of supporters across the globe.

[01:17:38]For a moment, however, I want to reflect on how I became involved in this international movement both as a circumcision sufferer and a human rights advocate and then bring us back to the point of my talk. As some of you know, in 1989, I created the National Organization of Restoring Men and the National Organization to Halt the Abuse and routine mutilation of males. In the years that followed, I produced the first ever social issue documentary to deal with circumcision called Whose Body Whose Rights. In 1995, that film was broadcast on many television stations, and we received overwhelming acclaim for the documentary.

[01:18:22]One viewer, however, criticized the film for being one-sided and questioned, "Can you imagine if they make this a political issue?"

[01:18:37]Now, in 2026, the topic of circumcision has definitely become a political issue.

[01:18:47]So, what happened in those 30 years?

[01:18:51]Well, I published three large scale surveys of circumcision sufferers and four skin restorers.

[01:19:00]Those surveys documented the long-term harm of circumcision to the health and well-being of those affected.

[01:19:11]Giving a voice to circumcision sufferers is a critical part of our success.

[01:19:19]In 2011, the San Francisco ballot initiative was launched to ban circumcision. Unfortunately, that was removed by the courts, but it was still the first such effort to appear on a voter ballot.

[01:19:34]Here in Germany in 2012, as was mentioned earlier, for the first time in history, a district court judge in K ruled that male circumcision constitutes illegal bodily harm.

[01:19:49]and that child's fundamental human right to bodily integrity and self-determination outweighs parental rights and religious freedom. And today we proudly commemorate this landmark event. However, as we all know, the Bundist talk bowed to political pressure from religious groups and passed legislation to make infant circumcision legal.

[01:20:15]At that point, German politicians shamefully abdicated their duty to enforce international human rights and violated article 3 of the German Constitution that calls for men and women to have equal rights.

[01:20:32]In 2013, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe passed a resolution that classified ritual male circumcision as quote, "a violation of the physical integrity of children and a violation of human rights."

[01:20:49]Then in 2015 in the UK, Sir James Mundy in a case involving circumcision of a brother and a sister declared that male circumcision causes significant bodily harm. A few years later, in 2018, children's rights advocates in Iceland lobbyed their legislators to pass legislation to protect all children equally from genital cutting customs.

[01:21:16]The Icelandic Parliament however failed to pass the legislation.

[01:21:21]That same year in the US, a federal court uh declared that our federal statute against female genital imulation was unconstitution unconstitutional based on federalist grounds. It was rewritten by Congress in 2020. But in declaring the original law to be unconstitutional, District Judge Bernard Freriedman stated, quote, "As laudable as the prohibition of a particular type of abuse of girls may be, it does not logically further the goal of protecting children on a non-discriminatory basis.

[01:22:02]Also in Denmark in 2018, a citizens initiative was introduced to make the existing anti-FGM law there genderneutral so that all children could be protected from genital cutting. The Danish Parliament rejected that in 2021.

[01:22:19]In 2022, I created the Genital Autonomy Legal Defense and Education Fund or called GELDEF to educate and organize attorneys to challenge the legality of infant circumcision and to raise money to pay for court cases. I'm proud to say that we produced numerous resources to educate attorneys about the fundamental human right of children to bodily integrity and the need for genderneutral laws to protect all children from genital cutting. In that same four-year period, we have set aside $90,000 for future court costs.

[01:23:02]Intact Global was founded in 2024 by attorney Eric Clapper. And in 2025, his law firm filed the first ever legal challenge in the state of Oregon for violating that state's constitutional guarantee of equal protection based on sex when it passed its anti-FGM law that protected only female children, leaving male and interex children at risk of non- therapeutic, non-consensual genital cutting.

[01:23:37]This year, Intac Global will file a second legal challenge in the state of Colorado because its anti-FGM law also violates the state constitutional guarantee of equal protection based on sex.

[01:23:53]And finally, the Health Equity Campaign, the political arm of Intaction, is right now working with lobbyists in New York State and in Washington DC to educate legislators about the need to stop Medicaid funding of medically unnecessary newborn circumcision.

[01:24:16]But as I reflect on the failed political efforts that took place in Germany, Iceland, and Denmark between 2012 and 2021, where the vast majority of the population supports equal protection for all children, I ask myself, who intimidated the politicians to oppose protective legislation?

[01:24:40]In some cases, it was pressure from influential religious groups or perceived threats of religious violence.

[01:24:48]In other cases, the intimidation came from powerful governments like Israel and the United States.

[01:24:55]In fact, the US State Department acting as the self-appointed global guardian of so-called religious freedom exerted diplomatic pressure on those parliaments of those countries, especially Denmark.

[01:25:10]In every case, the so-called guardians have proven themselves to be the opponents of children's rights, and the politicians who could have protected children have shown themselves to be cowards.

[01:25:25]These are all unmistakable signs that children's genital autonomy has indeed become a political issue, especially when powerful individuals, organizations, and even governments oppose the will of the people.

[01:25:44]A lot has happened in 35 years. We and the general public and a growing number of politicians know that we are not a fringe movement, but a vanguard of reasonable and compassionate human rights advocates who care about the most vulnerable among us, the children.

[01:26:08]Going forward, what do these new political realities tell us about forced childhood genital cutting and gender equality?

[01:26:17]It means that everyone who supports children's genital autonomy.

[01:26:23]All of us must be more proactive in dealing with our legislators. We must write letters, make phone calls, visit, and talk with our legislators to help them understand how children are harmed by forced genital cutting.

[01:26:44]Under the law, the shape of your genitals shouldn't matter. We all have different bodies and we all deserve the same rights.

[01:26:54]Yet, politics has always been a numbers game that reflects who is heard and who is ignored.

[01:27:03]And I guarantee you that there are those hearing my words today who take the issue of children's genital autonomy seriously enough to press forward to a political victory.

[01:27:18]Everyone who considers themselves to be a circumcision sufferer or a foreskin restorer or someone who knows and loves someone harmed by circumcision must come out. Share your lived experiences with family, friends, and politicians.

[01:27:40]The world changes when you make your voices heard. Thank you.

[01:27:57]Thank you, Tim.

[01:28:19]My name is Francisco.

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[01:32:46]Thank you.

[01:33:00]Francisco Evan Roman intact Finland. Does he hear me? He's here. Ready? Welcome, Evan.

[01:33:19]Maybe raise it a little bit.

[01:33:21]>> Yeah.

[01:33:27]as in an earlier speech today uh someone had mentioned that the person who represented British Jews uh again publicly has said on the record in front of someone who's Jewish complaining about circumcision happening to them that he has never heard a Jewish man complain about circumcision.

[01:33:52]I heard him say this to me in 2018 in Iceland. All that's on video. Uh, and it was after I gave a speech as a person from a Jewish background who's raised Jewish complain about circumcision happening to me.

[01:34:10]And it's it's it's an odd thing where this happens repeatedly and it's a argument technique for the general public to ostracize and make the alienate the the other speaker. But if it happened so many times on the record, it comes to question, who is Jonathan Arouch representing when he claims to represent British Jews or Jewish communities if people from those communities in front of him repeatedly on the record say that they complain about circumcision happening to them and that they think it's bad and wrong.

[01:34:54]who is he actually representing?

[01:34:58]And I think it's becoming clearer to people around the world actually and on other issues as well that the representatives of our communities who claim to represent and have the position of power to represent don't actually represent the viewpoints of their own constituents.

[01:35:21]in Helsinki, the Helsinki Jewish community, the uh representative of that is also in Iceland when I was there.

[01:35:29]However, in the Helsinki Jewish community, as documented by a doctoral thesis called Everyone Does Jewish Their Own Way, uh it documented people in the Helsinki Jewish community specifically not wanting to do circumcision and not doing it. They actually had to change their in the same year 2018 the Jewish school used to have a requirement that they were circumcised to go there and they they lifted the requirement the same year. There's obviously a lot of differing opinions within the Jewish community on this issue and the representatives are taking a unilateral we are all they're all agreeing with me on my side using the community in a way that they don't like being used. You might, if naively, think I'm the most complained of in the Helsinki Jewish community. I live in Finland now, but I'm from the US, but it's actually not me. They they kind of have a lot more to say about their representative and maybe being a bit. Um so with current world events as as people see maybe get disillusioned or frightened or don't know what to do in this changing world and things falling apart not being how they used to be. I see this as a great opportunity to make a better system.

[01:36:58]uh when this trust in the leadership of Jewish communities and the questioning of do they really represent the viewpoints of their own constituents in whether it's in Finland or the US or in Britain uh that there are dissenting voices within those communities and just using the leadership position as a political tool with no basis of who they're representing.

[01:37:28]no longer being trusted and a lot of things institutionally being less trusted and less able to fulfill its obligations um gives a lot of opportunity to rise up and make something better, make a difference, impact people who no longer trust the institutions and powers that have existed in the status quo and start questioning things. That gives us as activists a wonderful opportunity, I think. um and a great opportunity to reach out and bring people in uh uh who do want to be involved even if let's say Jonathan Arush uh does not listen to anyone there other people who do and when you do have people like that who who don't listen to you or their communities or to people and you are listening uh that gives you an opportunity to speak and when you have someone who doesn't listen like that and says, "I've never met a Jewish man complain about circumcision." And what do I do as a Jewish man who complains about circumcision? Complain more. And that's why I'm here today. Thank you.

[01:38:50]>> Thank you very much. The next speaker is Lee Thompson from Alaska.

[01:38:54]>> Welcome, Lee.

[01:39:13]I think it's good or not fall off the back here. Um, >> you can come forward.

[01:39:24]>> Okay. Um I'm I'm coming from Alaska and I'm involved with uh a a number of organizations primarily with uh Galiff the general me legal defense and education fund but also with doctors opposing circumcision with um with uh 15 square in the UK and also with um the Darbon Institute in Australia and um with Brheim team, which is a Jewish organization that's uh uh working on um building acceptance of Jewish families that are choosing not to circumcise their sons. Um but I'm coming here today from Alaska, all the way from Alaska to represent myself. I'm not speaking on behalf of any organization, but I just would like to share some things um that I' I'd like to say here. I'm a retired family medicine doctor and I come all the way from Alaska to speak and I'm motivated to speak about my experience of violence done to my body 62 years ago.

[01:40:31]This loss, this violation is so deep that I've lived with it every day since.

[01:40:38]Every day since I've discovered what was done to me at the age of 13. The fact that I can speak here today is only because I was lucky enough to find an empathetic therapist that believed me and later um to the support of online support peer peer support groups that I uh one of which I co-f facilitate with 15 square online the societal forces telling me not to speak are powerful and pervasive and it's only with communal support that I'm able to overcome those forces here to speak today.

[01:41:20]And to those uh community forums, I'm very grateful. And to therapists that are um that are trauma aare on this issue.

[01:41:30]Now, I'm going to just go into a little bit of a dark scenario here. Imagine yourself being taken away, strapped to a board, your screams ignored, then having the most sensitive part of your genitals cut away without any anesthetic.

[01:41:49]When we think of this happening to an an adult, it's horrific.

[01:41:53]But that's exactly what happened to me 62 years ago as an infant. because my screams were in another room unseen. We all want to pretend that it didn't happen, but it did happen. Anesthetic is still only an optional um uh an optional uh part of the procedure in the United States and many places. Now imagine that same situation as an adult, but this time those assaulting you are using an injectable anesthetic so that you won't feel the cut part of your genitals as they cut it away. Does that change how you feel about what is being done to you? Is it that much better that the amputation that you didn't want was not as painful as it could have been otherwise?

[01:42:44]In the rare country that requires anesthetic to be used for boys like Norway and Sweden, the people comfort themselves that at least he didn't feel the pain. Yet, the violation of an unconented amputation still happened.

[01:43:00]Non-consensual amputation is clearly something we would find horrific if it was done to an adult or to a girl child.

[01:43:09]But for a boy child, there's no outrage.

[01:43:13]Now think why is this violation allowable when it is done to a boy child who has not consented but horrific when done to an adult and why is there a difference if the child is born with a penis and not with a vulva? Why do we condition the right to have one's body protected entirely based on the shape of the genitals at birth?

[01:43:37]Why do we not see these protections based entirely on one sex as an extreme form of sexism?

[01:43:45]Why is the right to our body conditional on our sex and our age? And personally ask, why is it only people that look like me that are still not protected?

[01:43:58]As a society, we have elevated social concern for the plight of girls being subjected to genital cutting and call this form of this a form of uh genderbased violence. But this requires us to completely ignore that this same violence is being perpetuated against the girls brothers.

[01:44:21]It is a fact that all cultures that cut girls also cut boys.

[01:44:31]Um and the boys are cut in much larger numbers around the world.

[01:44:36]It is it is it that boys do not have a gender that counts or is it because they are male we can't consider what happens to them to be violence? Boys have no legal protection from this violence to their bodies anywhere on this earth based on an assumption of male immobility.

[01:44:58]And it's shared as much by those advocating for the exclusivity of protecting girls as it is those trying to rem maintain patriarchal systems. We project this idea of male invulnerability onto those born with penises and as a result we can't see them as victims of violence of uh nonvoluntary genital cutting even as they are every bit as vulnerable as girl children.

[01:45:27]I know that as a white cisgendered heterosexual man, I am understood to be privileged.

[01:45:35]But this assumption in some ways makes me invisible as a victim. And by proxy, those born looking like me having a penis are also invisible to our empathy.

[01:45:49]I am deeply aware that I am viewed with suspicion when asking those born with penises should also be treated equally.

[01:45:59]Yet here I am unapologetically asking those working exclusively for the end to the cutting of female ch children in foreign cultures to take a look at your motivations.

[01:46:11]Who do you consider worthy of your empathy and why? I also ask you to question the exclusionary rhetoric such as gender-based violence language explicitly intended to exclude boys from the discussion of childhood genital cutting. We must come to see that the power dynamic that allows the cutting of any child is a dynamic of adult over child, not male over female.

[01:46:43]This distortion continues to impede our progress. I want to say this as a respectful challenge. We all work in our area of passion. I recognize this. But creating a system of advocacy around the exclusion of boys makes it impossible for us to see the larger picture. We all need to come together if we're to stop any of this. Equality is a challenging concept and I'm challenging everyone here to think beyond your conditioning.

[01:47:16]Personally, I identify as a man. I did not consent.

[01:47:21]Before I had any voice to say no, before I had any knowledge of my identities, I had a body and I did not consent. Yet, I was violated in my own culture, specifically because I was born with a penis.

[01:47:39]Now, I'm forced to live with the damages of social control over my body. As I reflect on the exclusion of boys, I must question what my place in our society is. when this grave violation I experience is completely ignored because of my gender. No, I cannot see myself as a full member of our society as long as the laws of every country on this earth exclude me from the basic protections of my body because of who I am.

[01:48:13]I see myself as a human being but I'm not considered entitled to the rights of being human under any legal system. I for that I feel unwelcome and I do not belong.

[01:48:28]62 years ago my screams were ignored when they cut into my penis without anesthetic. 62 years ago I was overpowered when they said your body my rights.

[01:48:40]If you are born with a penis, this is not a thing of the past. Parents, doctors, governments, social institutions still proclaim to those born with a penis, "Your body, my choice."

[01:48:53]Boys continue to be left without a voice, and their screams continue to go unheard right here, right now. I'm here today as an an adult 62 years after being violated to say no. It was my body, my choice, and no one else's. I'm here today to speak for the boys whose screams are still being ignored by the German government and by governments throughout Europe and in England and throughout the USA and the Americas and throughout Africa and the Middle East. I am here as a man who believes that I have a right to my own body, not as a special case because of my maleness, but simply because I am no less human than anyone else. I am here for the boys who are being ignored to say no, we do not consent today. I'm not just asking to belong as a human. I'm demanding it.

[01:49:54]We will not be made invisible any longer.

[01:49:58]But I don't want to exclusively have the attention to voice even though by numbers that's what's happening here in our culture. Instead, my my vision is that there should be really one movement, a movement to protect all children from any form of nonvoluntary excisions or alterations to their genitals, regardless of their gender. a movement where all children are protected equally simply because they are born as human beings and because their right to their own body is not a genderbased right.

[01:50:38]I'd like to leave you with this image of a sacred flower.

[01:50:44]Every child is born with a beautiful unique private flower of their own.

[01:50:52]This flower has the potential to the the potential to bloom into joy into pleasure into connection.

[01:51:02]This flower can give a sense of ident of of identity, belonging and well-being almost magically. This flower can be where a new life is created and where a new life is brought into the world. This flower is not shameful. It is not trivial. This flower is sacred.

[01:51:26]A child's sacred flower is theirs alone.

[01:51:31]They may later choose to share it with whomever they please, or they may choose not to share it. They may choose to change it or keep it as it is. They may choose to decorate it however they want or let it shine in its own beauty.

[01:51:48]They can do these things when they are ready by their own choice and by their own consent.

[01:51:56]Every child, every human has a birthright to consent to be able to say, "My body, my choice." It doesn't matter if the shape of the flower is a penis, a vulva, or something more rare and special.

[01:52:15]What truly matters is that it's the child's private and sacred flower and not anyone else's.

[01:52:25]Our duty, everyone's duty is to protect all children regardless of what their sacred flower looks like. We must protect them from anyone else claiming the sacred fier the sacred flower as their own.

[01:52:42]We need to protect them from those that would v violate what isn't theirs.

[01:52:49]We are all human beings together, men, women, and persons with variations of sexual characteristics. We are all humans, and we really must go beyond the statement, "My body, my choice." This is not far enough.

[01:53:05]What this is really about is all of us coming together, both men and women, but also the gender diverse and peoples with uh genital variation.

[01:53:16]We need to all come together to say our bodies, our choice, we the people that have bodies, we the people that live in bodies of many shapes will not tolerate leaving anyone out.

[01:53:31]We will see to it that no child of any shape will ever be considered less of a fulful human being. We are all in this together.

[01:53:52]Thanks very much. Leaf Thomson.

[01:53:55]Yeah.

[01:54:07]Does penis forward in Africa?

[01:54:29]radio features.

[01:54:54]Thank you for having me here. I talk in English. If you don't understand, I can repeat in German. Uh but this is a worldwide broadcast at the same time as it as it is a uh demonstration. So a manifestation. So I do that. I have started reporting on male circumcision after this uh jurisdiction in 2012. So 14 years ago um where I just uh offered WDR who is at the station that is nearby um to do a report about it and they said yeah please please do it do it do it about male circumcision and what it who likes it who doesn't like it but don't mention religion because they were really uh keen not to be called anti-semitic anti-semitic and u yeah well I did that you know I'm freelance I have to earn my money. Um later on um that that uh the the law was changed. You heard about it and I had uh jobs to do in Africa. And when I went to Lake Victoria in Kenya, I saw a a poster in a fisherman's uh office and they said, "Come circumcised. Come get circumcised." They offered circumcision for free. And I became interested in that and I learned that this is a program financed by PEPFA. It's the presidential and the US presidential program against HIV AIDS worldwide because HIV if it is somewhere it also uh endangers other countries like United States and u this was a huge program I learned it uh they so far um the website of the WHO the World Health Organization says that 35 million Young and older Africans were circumcised in the name of AIDS protection, prevention, lowering the rate and there it starts because it's just based on three studies that were done in Africa in high prevalence areas who which found out in double blind studies uh that um with two groups that uh the group that was circumcised had a 60% less chance of acquiring AIDS.

[01:57:19]And the one I I did a Victor said that I did a radio report on it and long one.

[01:57:24]You can find it online again still in I mediatic um and you can find it. Um and I uh in the in the beginning I thought yeah okay this is a valid uh maybe this is a valid course but then I got uh connected to critiques. The main critique of his is Michelle Garin in in Paris of the instit pastor and he said and he pointed to the fact that 60% less uh chance is not like uh being vaccinated against HIV. So you might you might get uh the impression that you can around like you uh unprotect it as you want and then you acquire it and you have a 100% chance if you do that for a while and that is one point and the other point is that this campaign and you can still find it on PEPFAR web pages and in WH web pages that the um the campaign attributes every success in HIV pretition.

[01:58:27]While they have done other things of course they have informed, they have prep, they have preexposure, they have after exposure medication, they distributed that they propagated um condoms of course but each and every progress in lowering the HIV rate was attributed to cutting the foreskins.

[01:58:47]That was funny to me and really peculiar. Um and uh once again I was in 2022 I think I I was again at Lake Victoria and asked the the guys who were doing the circumcision campaign and all this HIV prevention stuff. Now where is Professor Bailey from Chicago? He was the somehow supervising it from the United States before and and traveling there on and off and he probably had a home at Lake Victoria Lake Victoria. And then the guy there said told to me, "Professor Bailey is in Indonesia."

[01:59:22]And I asked, "What is he doing in Indonesia?"

[01:59:26]And he I was answered the same thing.

[01:59:27]He's he's circumcising. He's he's propagating circumcising. And I called up Professor Bailey in Chicago and he confirmed that they are doing a study uh how to convince the people in Indonesia which are not circumcised, which are a minority in Western Papua. not don't confuse with Papua Niji. It is western Papua. It's a it's a province of of uh of um of Indonesia. They they're trying to con were trying to convince them with the methods that he uh had applied in Kenya and in 23 other countries in in in Africa to the non-ircumcised communities there. So he he confirmed that and but the study was not yet over. And I later on I asked uh so what about the study?

[02:00:17]Is it is it a success? Uh and I I researched it. Um and later he didn't call answer the phone again. He didn't call me up again. He didn't answer the mails. And uh I later I learned you can find the study online uh the result it was not a success. the the you the young guys uh over 15 14 15 to 19 that they tried to convince in schools. Only 94 of them got circumcised and uh they had um they thought they could convince 400.

[02:00:53]Now um by the way the 14 the age of 14 this is something which is really a crime in Africa. It has been a crime in Africa. It is a high risk thing if you if you circumcise young boys because the penis develops over time. It has stages like the vulva uh like like the the female uh private part also develop over time and it is a high risk to cut away something when they are 8 9 10 11 and they did that in Kenya. They did that in Kenya. Propagated went to first to the primary schools and said get away of that skin goat that you are carrying here between your legs. It's dirty. And they they made pressure and the group pressure of among the girl boys was high. I talked to people to to boys who had to convince their father who was from an uncircumcising community, let me get circumcised uh because I will not I will be an outsider in school if I don't. So the father reluctantly as a modern father he he underight the acknowledgement that his boy should be circumcised and it was because of that propaganda.

[02:02:06]Now there's a good story about Africa.

[02:02:09]The good story about Africa is um this evil guy Mr. Trump he's saving foreskin now he's because he has cut all the aid to HIV prevention. That is the good part of it. So uh but the bad part of it is of course that all the medication that they were distributing all the care that they are distributing to uh HIV carrying pregnant mothers and so on and so on has been stopped also. So doing harm to to HIV prevention in Africa because of these again selfish um motifs. And now the bad news about Indonesia. Okay, the good news I told you the Indonesian uh older boys in puberty, they don't want to circumcise. They they don't get convinced by a team of elders or uh in in con conjunction with with scientists.

[02:03:04]That's what they tried. But the Indonesian army does.

[02:03:10]They go to the villages. They uh offer you can get your boy circumcised for free. You are poor.

[02:03:19]And then uh they because of but they're also threatening somehow by their appearance. This is the Indonesian army who is also uh threatening all their lifehood livelihood as a minority as a Christian minority in the east of Indonesia in the west of Papua. So um they you can find these videos online and you can find that whole story which I wrote for the 14th anniversary of that day for hpd.de humanist press service uh in Germany.

[02:03:51]The humanists are here. I don't know if you are related to them. Um but somehow yes they are the non-con non religious people in Germany. And uh you can uh also have this Google translator.

[02:04:06]is in German but if you look at it it from another part of the world you uh just uh paste that link to a translation website like Google or depot Google is again supporting Trump so try another one um but anyway huh >> um they're using also some other but anyway uh that is it I wanted to open your minds a bit uh from Europe to uh other parts of the world where it is ethnically ally uh based the circumcision and not religiously and not custom based and it's a lot of power behind it and a lot of money. Thank you.

[02:05:09]Hi, I will try I will try to do this in English too.

[02:05:16]Um, my name is Renata Banhard and I have a website renata dashbanhard and I have a chapter there on genital autonomy. I started doing this because um I've been working as a journalist on this subject since 1998 when I was traveling in in Ethiopia and I got to know about female genital mutilation in um Ethiopia and when I brought this back this subject and wanted to report on this in Germany, we were very at the very uh beginning of awareness that this is devastating for women and a big problem and um the first reactions when I proposed the subject also as a freelancer like Ulaon were we don't mingle in foreign religions and we don't mingle uh in foreign cultures because this is colonialism. We don't do this anymore. Okay.

[02:06:27]um has nothing to do with religion but this is what the people believed and then the second thing was prove that this is a problem here and then very shortly after this uh Boris Stei came up raised her voice and her wonderful no wonderful her very important book Wooen bloomer flower desert flower um became way world famous and with this voice. Uh we were able to publish the first radio report on German radio in yeah in Germany and we got a prize and afterwards also a film that we could do and so um first I concentrated on female genital mutilation. Then the next subject I treated was um inspired by uh teram was um forced marriage and first of all I did not see these two subjects connected.

[02:07:33]Um, I learned about honor crimes and femicides and tried to understand the concept of uh honor crimes and what is behind it.

[02:07:48]And then with the time I understood that all this is deeply rooted and connected and um it was only due to the founders of the day of genital autonomy, worldwide day of genital autonomy that I finally understood what I was doing that all these subjects are connected. And the founders of worldwide day of genital autonomy said you have to look at the boys as well. And I absolutely agree. Now before at the very beginning my first film my was announced by the TV that there's no comparison with boys. Um female genital mutilation is awful and boys is nothing. It's just nothing compared to girl circumcision.

[02:08:41]This is what they believed at the time and this is what is still very much in the media and in people's minds. Uh not understanding the system that is behind all this because boy circumcision is like in all the countries where girls are circumcised, boys are circumcised as well. Where girls are cut, boys are circumcised as well. And girls are told you are being cut because you become a woman now. Boys are told you are being cut because you are a boy now. You are getting going to be a boy now. So it's the same thinking. And how can you expect a father to protect a girl his daughter uh or a man um choosing a woman uncircumcised if he has understood and deeply has been cut into his body that you are a man because you are cut and a woman is a woman woman because she's cut. So if this thinking will not get out of the the heads of the people, we cannot fight genital mutilation properly. So there are also still a lot of feminists who are believing this and we need to change this. I think this is very important.

[02:10:00]This is one thing that is absolutely wrong in the minds of the people. And another one is when you talk about boy circumcision, everybody says, "Oh, it's the Jewish." which is completely wrong.

[02:10:12]If you look at the numbers, the numbers there is like in Germany there is a number of like we have 200,000 Jews in Germany and maybe maybe um a very little half of it is is women and then a very small group of of um Jewish people is is circumcised in fact and we have round about 600 We have much more boys who are circumcised by um by uh fmosis by medical treatment which is done far too often. So the problem is not looking at the Jews but we should look at our own medical system and fortunately we have the um fimosis uh doctor's um um what do you call it doctor's headline what what they should do um that says we should cut down medical treatment and this is something where we should concentrate and look and not on the Jewish problem.

[02:11:23]Yeah. And we are often told that this is anti-semitic what we are doing. But in fact, I think what is anti-semitic is that we are kind of pointing at the Jews where we should really take care of ourself and our medical system about human rights uh of children and their right to to be protected against violence against bodily harm and that they have should have their own choice.

[02:11:52]So I think this is the point we should make uh and make this understood. Okay, this was not prepared and in English without any preparation. I hope I could get it through. Thank you very much.

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[02:25:09]Okay.

[02:25:52]Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

[02:26:09]Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

[02:26:30]finger. So, good.

[02:26:54]Fore!

[02:27:12]Foreign! Foreign!

[02:27:29]posting for Instagram.

[02:27:45]Foregioch.

[02:28:21]from African foreign. Yeah.

[02:29:22]can't make any Yeah.

[02:29:40]Foreign So, have a nice day everybody and uh see you next year. Bye.