In Twin Peaks: The Return, Part 17, the concept that 'the past dictates the future' is demonstrated through the characters' attempt to alter history by changing the past, which paradoxically creates a new timeline where Laura Palmer is removed from the story, illustrating how narrative causality operates within the show's dreamlike structure.
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Twin Peaks: The Return, Part 17 / The Past Dictates the Future.Added:
[music] >> Welcome to >> [singing and music] >> the Mean World.
>> This is Eric Crissom.
>> And I'm Dan Johnson.
>> Laura >> Eric and I will be re-watching [music] the iconic Twin Peaks from the pilot through the return and everything in between.
>> If this is your first time watching or if you're a long time fan, you can watch along with us as we [music] dive deep into the strange and wonderful world Twin Peaks.
>> We live inside a dream.
>> [music] >> The Mean World >> Today at Mean World, we have reached part 17, Dan. This is the penultimate episode. We're so near the end.
You can see the the moon being covered over by by clouds. It's uh it's almost complete darkness here.
>> Eric, I can't believe we've come to the next last episode so quickly it feels like. Going back and looking at clips from previous stories as we kind of put videos out for the show, it's like oh my god, that feels like years ago when we were in season 1, but it also feels like it was yesterday. And then we come to this episode and my my mind is blown.
I can't wait for you to completely monologue and lay everything out for me cuz I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of I don't know I don't know if this is like a common thing. I get it I bet it is. I bet there's a lot of varying opinions in the the wider Twin Peaks community around this one. So it'll be interesting to see where where I land. I I was telling you listeners I was telling Eric this before that I'm just not sure how I feel about parts of this episode. And the reason that I feel unsettled makes me feel like I should be It just It keeps feeding back on itself about my my thoughts here. So, a snake eating its own tail, but hopefully you have something that can help steer me in a direction.
>> Okay, yeah. I mean, I have have what I have, I guess. Hopefully, you'll enjoy my ideas. Let me Let me say this up top.
Lay this out there right up top. I do not believe that there is one overarching Twin Peaks theory that explains everything. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I think the They are mini worlds. The original series is kind of one world. Fire Walk With Me is another world. It's the secret history and the final dossier is another world, and The Return is its own thing.
They are connected. They are sort of one idea. You know what? I'll I've talked about the Blue Rose Task Force podcast before. I'll give them another shout-out and recommend people go there cuz they did an episode all about canon.
John compared Twin Peaks to mythology and folklore.
And that's what it is because you have myths and you have a story of how We're going to talk about myths today, to be actually. You know, there's different interpretations of the same story. There are certain things that are correct in all of them.
>> Certain Certain story beats or certain plot points that happen, but maybe the character changes or things happen in a different order. Absolutely. With the Greek mythology versus Roman mythology, sometimes they're the same story, but they're told slightly differently or the gods' names are slightly That's actually a really cool way to think about how these pieces all interconnect.
>> check out that podcast. There's I think it's his latest episode. He's brings on a guest, Colin James. Of course, we talked very highly about Colin James. Uh he was also joined by um Indigo and Hillary from a podcast called The Full Blossom of the Evening, which my friend Paul, hopefully you're hope you're listening, Paul, he did our theme song. He always been telling me about it. And I said, "I don't like to listen to other podcasts.
>> [laughter] >> I don't like other theory podcasts.
Like, that's really is I I like to remember things my own way. I like to come up with these things on my own."
But their podcast isn't like that at all. I've only listened to two episodes.
It basically will take other works of art and compare them it sort of in tandem with Twin Peaks or other David Lynch films and talk about different allusions, you know, literary allusions or uh references or com- commonality between these two things. So, they'll have like a show all about The Wizard of Oz. Or they'll have a they have a great show on The Little Girl Who Lived Down the Lane, which I had talked about the film before and we're going to talk about it again next week. Um so, anyway, >> Uh it com- coming to this with a an eye towards literary criticism and using that as a technique to draw those comparisons and how each different piece of art can inform the other is a really great way to structure the show without diving specifically into here's what this means or here's what that means.
>> No, it's great. And they have great takes and they're very intelligent um This is like we are like I think of when I think of myself, I have about four words in my vocabulary. Two of them are beautiful.
Uh but that's okay. Um so, it's nice to hear smart people talk about uh the stuff I like. So, yeah, recommend that.
All right, before we get to it, Dan, I like to promote people that make artwork. And someone that makes artwork is Dustin Weaver. Now, Dustin Weaver is a brilliant comic artist. I had been I had been aware of uh his work before the podcast.
And then once I knew that he was a uh fan of the show, makes me feel great.
When Not that everybody's important, but when you start connecting with people that you whose work you liked outside of the thing and then that you're like on a whole other level. And Mr. Dustin Weaver, he has a book called Juniper Lodge. It's a graphic novel. It's coming out, I believe, on June 2nd, which means it's in pre-order now. So, depending on when you listen to this, it's either in pre-order or it's available. In either case, you should definitely purchase it, especially if it's in pre-order, because pre-orders are really what determines your first book's sales. It fuels the nightmare Amazon machine, their algorithm.
So, if you're in pre-order for like 6 months before the thing, every sale that you get in those 6 months, they all get counted in that first week, uh which determines so much stuff. And it helps with deciding how many books they're going to print, all sorts of stuff. So, it's great book. I was He sent it to me.
I was able to look at it. I can tell you very early on you're going to get a Twin Peaks reference. Uh it's very cool.
Definitely worth your time.
And uh let's get into it, Dennis. Part 17. This is The Past Dictates the Future. September 3rd, 2017. Now, this aired at the same They released both episodes. So, you got to watch 17 and then immediately watch 18.
Which I think is kind of very helpful to how these uh these episodes are structured, cuz you really want to keep going when you get to the end of 17.
>> Well, dear. Well, let's get into it.
Before [music] he disappeared, Major Briggs shared with me and Cooper his discovery of an entity, an extreme negative force called in olden times Jowday.
Over time, it's become Judy.
Major Briggs, Cooper and I put together a plan that could lead us to Judy.
And then something happened to Major Briggs.
And something happened to Cooper.
Phillip Jeffries who doesn't really exist anymore, >> [music] >> at least not in the normal sense, told me a long time ago he was on to this entity.
And he disappeared.
Now the last thing Cooper told me >> [music] >> was "If I disappear like the others, do everything you can to find me.
I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone."
And now this thing of two Coopers.
And recently a paid informant named Ray Monroe sent a cryptic message indicating that the Cooper we met at prison is looking for coordinates.
Coordinates from a certain Major Briggs.
This plan, Albert, I couldn't tell you about, and I'm sorry.
>> I understand.
>> I know you understand, Albert. Yet I'm still sorry.
>> [music] >> Back in their suite at the Mayfair Hotel, Gordon Cole fills in the remaining members of the Blue Rose Task Force on the plan to find Judy, and they learn more about who Dougie really was.
>> Yeah, I love the the sh- you get to one of those great exterior shots of Buckhorn, uh South Dakota, which I like when we get they take the time to show.
That's always great to see. Seeing Gordon Cole unable to shoot Diane, uh he says, "I I couldn't do it."
>> Couldn't do it, Albert?
I couldn't do it.
>> It reminds me of having a hard time as a creator, like killing your own characters.
So, to me this is a little bit of Lynch Cole Cole, like a little bit too close to the surface that he cannot um he cannot kill his own character.
Those are the types of um meta stuff that I that I talk about where, you know, the characters are bubbling up and out of the thing that that we're in. So, I don't know what I don't know what the proper word is for that kind of thing. Albert's line, like, "You've gone soft in your old age," and Cole's >> Not where it counts, buddy.
>> I've seen people take that line and then do edits >> I said you've gone soft in your old [music] age.
Not where it counts, buddy.
>> [music] >> of uh David Lynch stuff, and it's very funny.
>> I think it's a great line. It's it's also really necessary to have that humor in this episode, cuz we're we're picking up right after >> Yeah, right after tulpa death.
>> So, it's it's really hard to see him sitting there, um kind of dealing with that grief, um both as, you know, I'm sure, both as the as a director coming to an end of this story and uh the character not being able to kill Diane. Amazing.
>> Yeah, killing your darlings, as it were.
Now, they're all drinking wine on the job, which is one thing, but what time is it? It's very bright outside.
>> It's very bright outside.
>> It is like 10:00 a.m. I I haven't figured out the I mean, we saw Diane drinking in the bar. She goes upstairs.
That all happened. So, it's it's got to be later, but it's very bright out. I mean, >> all these scenes that you're saying. I wouldn't set your watch by Diane when she's drinking because that version of Diane was she was putting vodka on her cereal, so >> Yeah, you don't know what time to look at either. The The phones don't match.
>> I like that, you know, again, the Bordeaux or I'm presuming this is the red wine that that Cole's been drinking throughout this entire season is fantastic.
>> All right. So, we're going to get a whole bunch of information here. This is information coming from from Gordon Cole.
>> Right.
>> Briggs tells Cooper and Cole an extremely negative force called Judy was discovered or Jowday.
The three of them put together a plan to lead them to Judy. The major learned of Judy who Gordon refers to by the ancient name Uh Judy, by the way, or Jowday is an ancient Sumerian demon that we'll get more information on when we get to the final dossier, so I'm not going to say any of that stuff now cuz we'll say it again later. Gordon Cole also says that Philip Jeffries, who doesn't really exist anymore, not in the normal sense, which means Cole really knew about Jeffries even though he was acting very surprised when Albert had spoken with him as if like no one knows what's going on with him, but he knows he's not quite human, but I'll talk more about that soon.
>> Well, I love that he says doesn't exist not in the normal sense cuz it makes me think of non-existent.
>> Sure. Yeah, and I think that's true. Let Let me jump in and just I want to take just a moment early on before uh we're at the end of the episode to do like a giant timeline. So, just basically, how did we get to this moment? What are all the things that have happened that got us here? Uh think of it like Cooper laying it all out at the sheriff's station in front of a spread of stacked donuts. Now, it goes without saying these are my dreams. Your mileage may vary. So, this is to my best understanding of how I see it. Uh if you want to stop me at any point, you know, please do. But, I'm just going to talk about these big chunks, right? So, we're going to start with Phillip Jeffries.
Right? So, there is the first timeline.
Jeffries is in Buenos Aires, right?
>> Mr. Jeffries This is your key, Mr. Jeffries. I hope you enjoy your stay here at the Palm Deluxe.
>> Gracias.
>> Gordon and company are in Philadelphia.
Right? It's 1989.
>> I was worried about today because of the dream I told you about.
>> He is not on the monitor because he is not there. He's in Buenos Aires. Time goes forward. The events of Laura Palmer happen.
Cooper goes to Twin Peaks. He solves her murder. He enters the Black Lodge. Mr. C emerges at the end of episode 29.
Simultaneously, while that is all going on, Jeffries learns of Judy and he starts investigating it her. It leads him to the place above the convenience store.
There he learns that Cooper's doppelganger has escaped and now with knowledge of Judy, he is able to leave the show of Twin Peaks and re-enter it in order to warn Cole.
But, something is wrong. He's in Philadelphia, but it's February 1989.
He's in He's in the past. So, to make this work in my head, by the way, for fans out there, I moved the scene in Philadelphia when Jeffries arrived to where it appeared in the original script, which is February 1989. They say it over and over and over it's February 1989. Even though if you're watching the movie, there's a scene after that where Cooper goes to the Fat Trout, and then it says 1 year later for Laura. So, we're going to take that scene with Jeffries and we're going to That takes place in 1989. So, I'm going to leave the scene that follows it with Cooper investigating the Fat Trout.
That's going to stay in 1988.
So, now that Jeffries is in Philly in 1989, it creates a second timeline, which is why Jeffries is on the monitor.
And this creates a layered effect of both timelines on top of each other.
Time and time again, right on top.
That's why when he looks at the monitor, we see both, right? So, does that make sense?
>> Yeah.
>> Right? Okay, so the the the first timeline, there he's literally in in Buenos Aires. Cooper goes and does his thing. He ends up going to the place above the convenience store. It's after the events of Laura. He learns about the doppelganger. He comes back. He's in the wrong time. He's in the past. He's in two places sort of at once. It's this layered effect thing. Now, that comes with a cost.
Right? So, Jeffries becomes completely unstable.
He He's almost becoming pure electricity, and he has to build a machine to stabilize himself and to hold him in place. Otherwise, he's going back and he's going back to the timeline that he started from because you can't have two characters kind of in the same exact same character in the same you know, timeline at the same time. So, he builds this machine. He lives outside of time in the Dutchman's. And there, he devises his own plan to stop Mr. C. This plan is separate than the Major's plan.
So far, so good?
>> Yep.
>> All right, so 1989, right? So, we're going to talk about the Cooper and the Major at this point. In 1989, before he disappears, Briggs tells Gordon Cole and Cooper about an entity, right? An extreme negative force called Judy. And they put together a plan that is supposed to lead them to Judy, which I have been arguing is a knowing it's this ultimate knowledge which lets you go in and out of a story and allows you to time travel.
Everyone who learns about Judy seems to disappear. They seem to be get elevated to almost the top part of this border of the story and sometimes they pop out. Like where is Chester Desmond? He's in the film Little Buddha.
>> Keanu Reeves, Bridget Fonda, [music] and Chris Isaac in Bernardo Bertolucci's Little Buddha.
>> Cuz the actor went out and did and did another project. I believe that this plan, this Briggs, Gordon Cole and Cooper plan, was made in conjunction with the Fireman.
And it would have involved Major Briggs, Cooper, and Gordon Cole all arriving at the Sheriff's Station where they would use the key to the Great Northern to leave the Twin Peaks timeline via the place the place above the convenience store and the Dutchman's Lodge. We'll get to some of that bit later.
Now, sometime before episode 29, so before Cooper goes into the Lodge, he tells Gordon, "If I go missing like the others, try and find me." Trying to kill two birds with one stone. We can talk more about this particular trying to kill two birds with one stone probably next time.
I waver myself a little bit on what I think it means. Sometimes I think that by he's saying by saving Laura and taking her out of the story he can trap Judy, but there's we'll we'll revisit that one later.
I also believe that before he goes into the Lodge, he also tells Diane. He tells this plan to Diane so that she is aware.
Now, at the end of episode 29, Cooper does not come out of the lodge, Mr. C comes out of the lodge. And he knows about Judy because, as we said, doppelgangers and non-doppelgangers, or regular folk, share memories. So, he heard Briggs, you know, Mr. C heard about Judy from Briggs. He also remembers hearing Philip Jeffries talk about Judy. So, he's very interested in Judy. So, he goes immediately up to um Briggs, and he tries to get some information from him. Immediately, the major knows something is wrong, right?
This is not Cooper. The Cooper is actually the doppelganger, and this poses a new threat to him.
So, Briggs realizes now that he has to hide cuz he's in danger. Mr. C will do whatever he can. He has to prevent Mr. C from getting the power of Judy, which is the knowing, the death of mystery, the ability to go outside of an idea.
So, he and the fireman come up with a new plan. They have to alter this plan.
Briggs hides the note in the chair so that his son, Bobby, can finish his part of the quest that he can no longer be a part of. He tells Betty, his wife, to give that a note to him, Hawk, and Sheriff Truman when they come.
It'll tell them exactly where to go and where to and when to be to access the portal to the fireman's.
This way, Andy can be given his instructions to protect Diane and to position Lucy where she needs to be.
More on that later cuz we'll cover that in the end of the episode. Uh Briggs then goes to listening post Alpha. He stashes the coordinates to the portal in a government computer.
He burns the place down and fakes his own death, and he flees into the portal near Jack Rabbit's Palace. It's interesting that the major burns something, and then he goes to see a fireman, but that's where we are. The major then uses, I think he uses the machine at the Fireman's to travel to the place above the convenience store where he goes into {quote} hibernation until it's time for this plan to be set in motion. Now, for his part, while this is happening, the Fireman's also doing stuff. The Fireman gives Freddy the magic glove that will destroy Bob and make sure that he is in Twin Peaks at this exact moment that they're trying to line all these things up. As I mentioned before, he takes Andy, the Fireman takes Andy, and make sure he is able to get Lucy a gun and put her in the right position so she can shoot Mr. C. Both Andy and Lucy are people Mr. C would never suspect would get the drop on him as well. And we're going to cover something later with Lucy that's kind of neat as a callback to the original series. Uh okay, so 25 years go by, right, Dan?
The time has finally come. The Major now makes contact with William Hastings and Ruth Davenport and requests that they get the coordinates for Jack Rabbit's Palace from the government computer. He knows this cuz he put them there.
He wants them to get the coordinates, and I think there's two reasons why this happens.
There's the nice reason, and then I think the reason that he does it, but we'll we'll we'll cover both.
Uh the first one is the Major is genuine genuinely lost, and he needs to get back to the Fireman's, and Ruth Davenport saves his life, and she saves the story by retrieving the coordinates and getting them to him so that, you know, he can get away, but she's killed by the Woodsman. It's a nice option. I don't buy it. I think [snorts] it's option two. The Major purposely asked her to get them because he knows when they steal the coordinates from this government computer, it's going to ping Mr. C, who will be aware of this and be drawn into this trap. The Major wants Mr. C to get the coordinates, but without him knowing it because they want to put him in the sheriff station so that the so Bob can so he can be killed and then Bob can be killed. It feels cruel in a way knowing that Ruth and Bill Hastings are used as pawns as they both suffer terrible terrible fates.
But in one sense once this thing happens, you know, does it alter it will alter the future because the past dictates the future and maybe that would undo their torture and death. But anyway, that's what I think about the coordinates. Take a pause for questions.
>> How would Briggs using Ruth and Bill Hastings to set this trap for Mr. C with the coordinates have any retroactive effect that might undo this for them?
Uh past dictate the future because that's all in the future.
>> Right. So it's in the future, right? So so they they they get the coordinates from this computer. They end up getting killed.
>> Yeah.
>> At the end of this, we're going to pull Laura Palmer out of the story. She still lives her life up until a point, but she's not murdered. So her body is never found. So the Cooper comes to town. He's probably not there for a very long time, which means he probably doesn't go into the Black Lodge. So Mr. C probably doesn't come out, which means he probably isn't looking for the coordinates, which means he's probably not killing Ruth and Bill Hastings. They continue to have their affair. Whatever timeline happens after that cuz they we're going to That's why the end of this Cooper says some things will change and some things won't. So >> Yeah.
>> I'm hoping that that that it's not cruel for you know, him to use them as a way of luring mis- making, you know, Mr. C fall for this trap because it is it it is a trap.
Okay. So in any Does that make sense?
>> Yep. Yep. yeah.
>> Okay.
In any case, the major gets the coordinates, he floats up, his head enters the portal, but his body remains behind. His head goes to the fortress in the ocean of pure consciousness.
>> [snorts] >> Meanwhile, uh Cooper has been trapped The good Cooper has been trapped in the Black Lodge. I'm not going to go over all the things where he's talking to Laura and going back to February 16th in her dreams and all that cuz I've covered that in one We got to get to scene two.
This We're still in the first >> [laughter] >> 5 minutes of this episode. Um but anyway, what When Cooper arrives in the sea of pure consciousness in episode three, right? Or part three.
He sees Briggs's head, right? It floats by and says blue rose.
This is for me Briggs's way of telling Cooper the plan is still on. You have to make contact with Gordon Cole when you wake up and continue to get this thing going. And we see that happen. Cooper then enters the show in part three.
Meanwhile, outside of this, Jeffries is enlisting the help of one of the FBI's informants, Raymond Rowe. Ray thinks he's working with the FBI deep deep undercover, but he's actually working with Jeffries alone. Jeffries wants the evil Cooper dead. Uh he's tried to travel back in time to warn against it.
That did not go over well.
>> Who do you think this is there?
>> Now, he's going to use Raymond Rowe. So, he and Ray feed him two sets of the same coordinates leading to a death trap that unfortunately we see Richard fall into.
Another party who I believe to be Windom Earl has somehow escaped the Black Lodge or is communicating from the Black Lodge in any case. And he learns about the coordinate game in the same way that Mr. C does. He's an FBI agent. So, of course he would have access to the same kind of servers and little things that get pinged that oh, somebody's looking for this thing. He's probably already monitoring Mr. C. So, now he's able to intercept that thing. He sends him a message, he pretends to be Philip Jeffries, and he's trying to send you know, send him back to the Black Lodge so that he can be quote >> I will be with Bob again.
>> Who is this?
>> Many people think the imposter is Mike.
Uh which makes sense as the deliverer of the Owl Cave ring. Mike always has the Owl Cave ring. I don't see Mike impersonating uh prison guard. It doesn't sound to me like Mike when he calls on the phone and says, "I will I'll be with Bob again. I missed you in New York." So, I I again, to me every The more I think about Windom Earle just makes so much sense to me.
In all the stuff he would know about the FBI, how he would know how to call Mr. C, you know, Philip Jeffries, I didn't even have your number. Like, he knows enough FBI stuff, and he's the master of disguise uh to do it.
That's basically where we're at now.
We'll complete a lot of these things later, but that's the that's the plan I guess uh up until this point.
>> Wow. Makes sense?
>> This is great.
>> Okay, so also so with when then then after Briggs uh Briggs, after Gordon Cole says this, he he calls over to the hospital. It's interesting that Headley says, "We got it. The whole story." This is a very interesting line in context of how we are talking about Twin Peaks as a story. So, the fact that he drops that line to Gordon really stuck out at me.
Then we get the message from Dougie that Bushnell delivers, which is, "I am headed for sher- Sheriff Truman's. It is 2:53 in Las Vegas," which adds up to 10, the number of completion. It's the same time, 2:53, that we've heard about. It's the same distance from Jack Rabbit's Palace to the portal. It's the same thing the man from another place told him time and time again. So, 2:53 is a loaded thing. 2:53 also, as I said, adds up to 10. Uh the business is lucky seven. Uh Gordon, Albert, and Tammy are a three, which together is a 10. So, it's interesting thing with the numbers as well. I love that Bushnell also says, >> I'm his boss.
>> And they both have that in common. And Gordon just like, "And that makes two of us." or whatever. Yeah.
Uh it's fantastic. Um all right, let me hand that off to you. There's so much stuff. 5 minutes this scene is just too much.
>> But, I got nothing You've just completely blown my socks out of my shoes, as you might say. I'm I'm I am completely at a loss here. No, this is this is really incredible. Um I have nothing to add in terms of the the overall content, but a couple of nice moments that I wanted to to make sure that we we mentioned.
Um there's the moment that that Cole says to Albert and apologizes to him. This These are things I I wanted to tell you for 25 years, but I couldn't tell you.
And and Albert says he understands. But then Cole saying, "I know you understand, Albert, but I'm still sorry." I just the the the humanity between these two I love so much. So, I didn't want I didn't want to skip over that.
>> No, no, I'm glad you did. That was on my notes, and I missed it. And he hears it.
There's no What did you say? Like he hears him. It's not like Albert screaming or anything. It's completely It's completely understood.
>> I I also like uh in the beginning of this before Cole starts talking about the the plan and uh Joe Day and all of this, he says, "Now, listen to me."
And then that silence, that pause that just lasts for a really long time, which I think was him being like, "I I This is the thing I was I I wanted to tell you for so long." and screwing up his courage to be like, "Man, admit to this thing that he wasn't able to tell him."
But I just also love this like it's putting us on the edge of our seat. The "Listen to me." and we're all just waiting in silence for him to give us this information that we're waiting for.
It's really cool um as well.
Um also terrific, we get another great Albert line, uh, whenever Headley says, "We found Cooper, uh, but he's not here." or something along those lines. He says, "Let me check my watch. Is this the, uh, Marx Brothers?" It's fantastic. It's just a perfect Albert line. Very, very good. And we do again have another cheers to the bureau, um, which, you know, makes us think of, uh, Diane as well, uh, outside the the prison. But, uh, yeah, what a what a packed scene. You really I What I thought was just like a a small meal ended up being like a banquet here.
We got a we got a lot to digest.
>> When he says that they've been sitting on this plan for 25 years, and we've heard like Diane as a tulpa when she becomes aware and you get a little bit of real Diane coming out there. I remember Cooper, I remember like So, there's these plans going on, and it's such a loaded state. And also hearing that that [ __ ] Ray is an FBI informant, and you're like, "Okay, there's a there's a lot to to connect."
>> Yeah, that that definitely stopped me in my tracks for a second there, but realizing that actually he was just being used by Phillip Jeffries is is pretty great, as well. So, he good. Screw that [ __ ] Ray.
>> [laughter] >> Uh, do you want to move on to the second scene of this entire episode?
>> [laughter] >> Let's go.
>> [gasps] >> All right. Um, cool. So, we're going to head over to Twin Peaks in the jail cells beneath the sheriff's department.
The residents have a restless night as Mr. C drives through the night.
>> I don't have much on this. Uh, you know, the Chad's in 10, the drunk's in five, uh, we owe Leo 5,000, but do you owe him 10,000 or 20? No, I don't I don't know.
Uh, the power line bit is always great when you see the power lines. Mr. C goes towards Diane's coordinates, and you know, the dark, the spooky music. It's really good.
It's hard to figure out what to make of the drunk, um, who repeats lines just like Dougie.
And I always think of the monkey, the Judy monkey at the end of Fire Walk With Me, too, but I don't know really what to make of him. The sounds of Naido sleeping are just wild.
Her She's like dreaming. She's in a dream state and coming aware of things.
It's It's very cool.
>> Yeah, I mean that the important part here, like you said, that the the power lines, that sound, the scratchy visuals of it, repeating that from the last episode was really cool. Uh but Naido you start she's starting to uh sense. She can feel Mr. C coming.
Like she's just I like that we're starting to build that tension from here uh that she's starting to get worried and concerned. And then there's just Chad being Chad. Um which uh we'll come back to in just a minute. But first we got to go over to the Great Northern where Ben Horne gets a call about Jerry.
>> Got a guy here.
No identification. Won't give his name.
Says he's your brother.
Says his binoculars killed somebody.
>> It's great. The actor that plays Sergeant Williams on the other end of the line, I I don't know who it is.
Uncredited. It's such a funny scene. The fact that he's naked, he's in Wyoming.
We get some context, I guess, of where where Richard died, right? Cuz we know he saw him in Wyoming. So that's kind of in, you know, they were in Montana and then they were sort of driving southeast, I guess, to to end up in Wyoming. I don't I don't have much. It's a great scene. It's a funny scene. I always love Richard Beymer, so it's good stuff.
>> Yeah, it's just funny to imagine Ben Horne wandering around naked in Jackson Hole. Um but yeah, I don't know where he was.
>> Yeah, Jerry is the best. I mean, he said his binoculars killed somebody. And could you bring some clothes?
So he's just completely naked. Uh it's just awesome.
>> Ben's just so defeated by like, of course, this my brother Jerry. Like, of course it is. All right. Next morning Mr. C discovers Jack Rabbit's Palace, visits the fireman and Major Briggs, and is sent back to Twin Peaks.
>> This is a great scene. So yeah, the coordinates lead Mr. C, you know, he goes 253 yd away from where Jack Rabbit's Palace is. Um so, this is the spot where that portal is and he falls right into the Major's trap. So, we do see like that lone white sycamore tree that you had pointed out uh much more clearly here than we could see it originally. It reminds me so much in this shot of the man from another place in his new form.
>> I was going to say exactly. It looks almost exactly like the evolution of the arm. It's very cool.
>> I love when he goes into the uh fireman's and you see Mr. C in what looks like a cage and just the way his face is trapped in that cage. And again, this this is part of the trap that they were feeding him the coordinates, making him think that he had to have them. He literally went into the mouse trap by himself. So, they put him in the trap and then the the fireman comes over and we see sort of where they got him. So, that you see the sycamore tree 253 yd from where Jack Rabbit's Palace is. And then, we see Laura's house, which is interesting. And then, he slides it over and to me it literally looks like he's sliding film over. Like we're moving film in a projector over cuz we're moving in and out of the world of Twin Peaks. When you move people in time, you you're outside of the show as you go back in and out of it. Is the way I'm uh I'm I'm seeing it.
>> To me, if I read it the same way. I know this is probably not a direct allusion to it, but it makes me think of like the scenes from Interstellar as they're kind of slide through different dimensions.
It's just like that sliding. It's like maybe it's many versions of of Laura Palmer, of Twin Peaks, whatever and and sliding them over there. But, I love that moment of the fireman still suspended, floating in space, but that hand as he does that and the deep whoosh sound that comes across and is very cool.
>> It's interesting. Is it on Laura's house because that's the basis of Twin Peaks the story? Is it on Laura Palmer's house because Bob is trapped in in cage along with the the um with Mr. C the doppelganger and this is Leland's house.
>> Ooh.
>> Like so why that that just interests me. But after they slide it over it goes to this shot that almost looks like Venetian blinds.
I don't know what to make of it. I took a screenshot.
>> To me it looked literally like if you were to take the last pixel of the of Laura Palmer's house on the edge of that slide and and just stretched all of them out. Like it didn't really I don't think it was To me it didn't look like it was anything in particular. I If I If I know what you're talking about like the the horizontal lines that just go straight across.
>> Okay, yeah maybe. Yeah, yeah. I didn't I couldn't make heads or tails of it but that makes more sense. Looks like house siding.
>> that's what I'm saying. That looks like it could have been sliced like it feels to me like Interstellar which is like all these different versions of of this moment in time as we're shifting across the >> Would you say version layers?
>> Like a version layer exactly. But yeah, it's it's a cool effect and it's it looks it looks interesting but I don't know if there's a deeper meaning to it than that but it's nice to read into it.
>> Right. It looks I was like is it like Venetian blinds cuz there's the machine that has two poles out that look like strings from Venetian blinds. They're not. They're on every shot is that thing. But I was like oh Cooper in episode 27 does look out Venetian blinds when his hands start shaking. I'm like oh my god.
>> Oh god, yeah yeah that's true.
>> [laughter] >> But I it's I don't think it's that. I think it makes more sense that it does look maybe it's like siding and it's the house and it's the house stretched like you're saying or whatever. But then we see like all the machines working to move him to where they need him into the Sheriff's station at just the right time.
>> How cool is that shot of like all of those machines just going off into infinity? So like it just thinking about when we talk about the Nez Perce map and fire isn't a fire it's just electricity but it's it's not evil.
>> A type of fire.
More like like modern day electricity.
>> Good?
>> Depends. Depends upon the intention, the intention behind the fire.
>> It's just a means to an end and you can use it in different ways and like this is just that that energy being built up here to to massive amounts of energy to do what they're doing. Before we saw Laura getting you know put into the world and now we see this happening with him with Mr. C. It's It's just a really cool shot to see all of those going back.
The shot of of you know we should [laughter] even mention that we still have we have Briggs head floating there as well to the side and we have so he gets to witness his his trap actually you know being sprung on Mr. C and I love the shot of of Cooper's face as of Mr. C's face in that cube prison cell.
And like the smoke coming up over the side of his face so it's like this dark and light as well.
I had I don't watch any of the making of because there'll be spoilers in there that I don't want to see but do they talk about how that's done cuz it looks like it was practical. Looks like it was probably a real model and just projected onto it. It's It's a beautiful effect.
>> Yeah, most of that the behind the scenes stuff like the Jason S the the man with the gray elevated hair. A lot of it is just like little vignettes that you catch like a little bit of discussion on set or a little bit of Lynch doing magic stuff and it's less like this is exactly how we made this thing or you don't really get that.
>> The craft of it. I'd really loved if someone had. Yeah, it's just it's so cool.
>> Yeah, they they maintain the mystery to a good deal which I I appreciate.
>> What What is the What's your impression of the thing that Mr. that Mr. C turns into? Like it looks like a bundle of sticks or like a tuft of hair or something inside the cage before it like floats into the back and gets sucked up into the golden tube and shot into >> Oh, yeah. Um I don't I just thought that he that's how you move a person in this world is you just reduce them to that form that is inserted into a the movie in another place.
>> if >> We just went from one part to the other part. God it. Damn, I know Lynch hates Dune and it's a sadness, but there's a so much Dune stuff going on here. It's like the folding space of a third stage Guild Navigator when they're taking it from one spot and they're putting it in another. Like you see the spice canyon and all the machines as the guy floats up.
So, I don't think he I don't think he hated all the ideas in that film. I know he didn't.
But that's what it reminds me of like the that, you know, it's got to go in a form.
>> I love that moment of just like is it revealing what this what this doppelganger actually looks like or whatever it is. I don't know. It's just a cool like moment um uh that evokes some sort of feeling in me, but I'm not clear what it's supposed to be. So, that's really cool. Also, um so, they get sucked up into the golden tubes and spat through the the projecting screen into Twin Peaks. And and I like the fact that he could have very easily had that shot lined up and then cross fade and bring it's cuz it's a simple dissolve of like Cooper Mr. C appearing in that place. But instead of it being like a perfectly lined up shot, it all doubles. The trees are kind of overlaid on top of each other. The shots are not lined up perfectly. So, we get a lot in this episode of those like doubling shots we get throughout the entire series, but it's just this I like that it's kind of reinforced here cuz it could have been perfectly meticulously lined up and and a clean shot of it, but it wasn't. I feel like that was either intentional or nicely done serendipity um to show that.
>> And it's neat to to pay attention to color, especially more at the end. But like when you see him >> [snorts] >> in when you're in the outside, when you're in the firemen's, he's black and white like on the screen and then it becomes color when we go in.
So like when I'll talk more about what black and white means versus color means like is this the old timeline into a new timeline every time you move someone to a new timeline is it create a new timeline and that becomes a black and white timeline and this becomes the color timeline and I don't know, just something neat that happens in that scene.
Cuz we have seen color stuff on the giant's TV. It's not like he showed Andy a video and some of it was in color and some so he has the capabilities.
>> He's one of those those new bottles.
>> It's an HD and everything.
All right. Well, there's some other neat stuff happening over at the sheriff's department. Mr. C is greeted by Andy and invited in to have some coffee. Chad plans his escape and Mr. C has a chat with Sheriff Frank.
>> First off great sound effects going on in this opening scene that I absolutely love.
>> [panting] >> What is this?
>> Naido waking up of course knowing the moment of revelation is at hand is also really fantastic and I love Kyle's or Mr. C's performance being like this is not where he ex- expected to be like what is this now?
Like what what is going on? Where am I?
It's very very cool and then how happy Andy is. Like first off Mr. C is pissed.
He looks like he's ready to do violence and Agent Cooper Agent Cooper. Andy's got a picnic basket. He loves a picnic.
That's what Chad tried to lure him out when they was trying to steal mail.
Remember those days?
>> Like 7 years ago when he was stealing mail.
>> [snorts] >> Cooper is back at the station but not in the way we wanted Dan. This is not the Cooper that we wanted. Always happy to make a comment when they come in, Cooper comes in or I should say Cooper, Mr. C comes in with Andy. He meets Lucy, and you see that wonderful tree picture, that tall tree picture. I love seeing it. It's in the the waiting room of the sheriff station. Andy again, all smiles.
He's so giddy. And then you watch that giddiness change as like awareness overtakes him.
And you know he's seeing his memory of where he needs to he needs to put her in the right place at the right time that the fireman showed him from that home movie. And you just watch it sort of like awaken or activate inside of Andy.
He goes from like kind of goofy Andy to I got to do I got to do this this job.
Very important. Very important. Very important.
>> Yeah, you know, this is this is where I start having um my conflicted feelings about this this scene and and the next that come up. Um Chad's sitting there waiting for the drunk to pass out, and there's no reason that he should. Um he's there mimicking them.
Uh you know, he had woken up before, and Chad's just staring at him intently, and then he passes out, clunks his head. And that way Chad can, you know, grab the secret key that's uh hidden in his heel.
Honestly, I hate Chad. That was a good move. That was pretty damn slick. Uh but he has that so he can slip out. But yeah, Freddy and Freddy and James are the couple cells down from him and are right there in the shot and don't see him, don't hear him, nothing.
>> I think it's because the drunk is like, to quote Mr. Show, a human alarm clock.
>> In a flash, the lionhearted guard transformed himself into a human alarm.
>> [screaming] >> Whereas James and Freddy are far off in their own business. As soon as fr- uh as soon as the drunk sees him, he's going to scream at the top of his lungs and make noise. So, it's an immediate threat, whereas I feel like Chad can be, you know, whatever, have his back to someone, take a key out, or whatever, and he'd be safe. But, he can't do that with directly face-to-face with a drunk who's going to scream like a human alarm clock.
>> I don't disagree with the fact that he needs the drunk to not be watching him, but the fact that it's a drunk passes out at that moment, and then James and Freddy don't see him.
This is where I'm starting to to wrestle with this idea that I'm I'm very conflicted about and don't know what to make of, and maybe I'm just completely wrong or seeing things, but the I mentioned this in the previous episode as well. This deus ex machina that's happening, or more explicitly like this authorial intrusion into the show.
Um it doesn't feel natural that this would happen. It doesn't feel earned. It doesn't feel like this is realistic in any way. Why does the Why does the drunk pass out just then? Why do they not see him? Why do they not hear him?
It happens a lot more later as well, but it also is very much the same thing the fireman was doing. He was setting up Andy to remember these things when he needs to put them in in the place. It's all of the It's the the hand of the author. It's the hand of of Lynch and Frost directly or through the fireman or these other things kind of setting these pieces where they need to go, winding up the toy soldiers, putting them in a place, and like watching them um do what they need to do.
And I guess that's fine, but it also feels kind of pat to me. It feels like I don't know. I just feel very conflicted about it. It It feels very obvious to me that's what's happening.
>> Right. I would take issue with that only in to support my own theory that I keep talking about, but it's that we're go the characters within the story are going outside of of story, and they can see the entire timeline of all of the events. So, yes, there is a hand of God at work, but the hand of God are the characters within the story we're watching.
>> I think that's true.
>> Andy's being used by the fireman. The fireman sees the entire picture. You the Major Briggs saw all of this, Bobby.
Like >> Sure.
>> the entire thing. So, it's not the hand of You said Lynch and Frost like putting pieces where they want to be. It is the characters within the show that are outside of the show, but that's part of a greater story that we're watching.
>> Yes, and yes to some pieces of that. I think that that's I don't disagree with any of that. This specific moment, that's why I'm calling it out here. This specific moment of the drunk just keeps gibbering away, and Chad can't take action until he passes out. And Chad's just sitting there for a 10, you know, maybe 5 or 10 seconds just staring at him until the drunk passes out. Like it that just feels that feels like deus ex machina in the real sense of like, well, I just need to get him out of I need to get Chad out of I need to for the story for Chad to get out of the jail cell and no one to see him. Therefore, the drunk needs to pass out right now.
And that's not something like the fireman putting something in place or or, you know, >> No, but who is the drunk? Why does the drunk rip his face off? Is the drunk like a mysterious mischievous type creature that you would have in a folk tale or something that is It's not human. No one No drunk >> [laughter] >> No, absolutely not.
>> He's able to communicate. So, I feel like he is a chaos agent in this world that's part of the the the folky tale nature of this thing. Like it is >> [snorts] >> You know what I'm saying? But if you ask like, why does even Chad need to be in it? Like it's not like they have to put this thing in there to knock Chad out in order for some plot point to go forward. Not really.
>> Well, they did. They did Well, they they could have had Andy release Freddy so Freddy could be in the position to fulfill his destiny, but otherwise Freddy needed to have a reason to break himself out of the jail cell and that was to save Andy and >> But Andy takes them upstairs. Like two like Andy has a plan and he's like I got to get you guys all upstairs. I think he was going to do that anyway. He didn't just do that because Freddy escaped. He He's comes down there and says, "He's going down there to take them out."
Like he's got a plan. Very important.
Very important. He's got to put her here. He's got to protect NATO. He's got to get NATO up into that thing. So that's all part of his plan. I think for one thing it's funny like or it's supposed to be played for enjoyment.
Everybody hates Chad. You want to see him get hit with a door.
>> That I have no problem with. That I was a thousand percent happy to see Fred Also, Fred's expression when he does it is fantastic. His >> Or James's expression cuz he's joyful.
And we've watched James watch a guy get beat up and he was not happy about it.
He was very sad. He was happy to see this guy knocked out.
>> He knew the right guy got hit this time.
>> Very important. Very important.
>> Um also, the very important very important was great because that's that's what Lucy says later to Frank to take the call from Cooper.
>> Take a message, please, Lucy.
>> It's a very important phone call, Sheriff.
>> All right, Lucy.
>> So like it wasn't just like very important very important I got to go do a thing. It was like seeding that in her mind to get it her to say the I love that. It was really cool.
Um the other thing with the drunk too and this is this is just kind of silly, but it's so gross when he he has that bandage across his face that's held on with twine for some reason. But anyway, he pulls that off and he's picking at the scab under it. And to me, that's exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm just picking at this little scab of a thing that doesn't really it's it doesn't affect my enjoyment of this. It doesn't affect the overall story. It's just this little thing that's bothering me that I'm just kind of picking away at. So, to me it feels like I'm totally on board with like all of this being both important, but not important in the big sense, but there's just something and we'll and we'll come more to it later in the in the next scene.
But, it's just something about all of this that's kind of bothering me.
>> Yeah, I just see him like a monkey. Like a monkey from a old tale that messes with the story. It's just a little mischievous monkey that's getting in trouble. And I also wonder about like the peeling of the flesh. Is it to suggest that we have souls and the body is meaningless and we move from body to body or souls will, character to character. Actors play all these different roles and it's just a way of saying the flesh is nothing. I don't know. It's hard to to make heads or tails of that of that drunk. But, it does not bother me, I guess in the same way of it being a deus ex machina moment that he passes out at that moment. Would you say >> It's comedy and played for laughs.
That's that is enough of an answer for me to be like, yeah, sure, that's totally fine.
>> Yeah, may not be for everybody, but >> Yeah, no, that's that's all right. I I will also suggest uh finish up the last couple of things. Um Andy's, you know, being like you said, so excited, cartoonishly excited, until he remembers or premembers like where he needs to set Lucy up. Like he he remembered the thing that he's supposed to do for her. Um and that's when that serious Andy formerly came back from the fireman is back in place. And that again, for me, this is the thing that I keep talking about.
This Andy doesn't feel like the Andy that I've seen before. It feels like this cartoonish over-the-top version of him until we get this version. This is a different Andy entirely. It's just something about these characters just feel completely off and heightened and exaggerated. Um I feel the same way about, you know, uh Audrey. Audrey when she gets to to the roadhouse and and does her dance and as beautiful as it was, as we talked about in that scene, something about it also just feels like it was this over-the-top, this is Audrey. This you know, remember Audrey dancing in the double R to the to the music? Like it just feels again I don't have a a cohesive theory about all of it.
>> I think that's what it is, right? Well, that that's what I was we talked about that last week. Like that's what it is.
It's it's literally nostalgia trying to push this thing back that shouldn't be there. So it's over the literally the audience parts and let's her in. So it's not played straight like she's it's intentionally a dream that becomes a nightmare. It's like trying to go back home when you can't.
>> But I think it is very similar to this and and Lucy as well and the later stuff that happens with her. It It all feel like a piece.
>> Right. Well, the thing with Lucy and Andy too, I believe that they're they're were existed when we were watching the show in the 90s and now we're watching them in 2017 and they have not adjusted to any of that stuff. Until the end after she does what she does and she just knows how cell phones she says that like I know how cellular phones work cuz she's now getting she's getting she's becoming aware or she's she's whatever.
>> The last thing I want to point to before we move on Mr. C coming into the sheriff's department when he meets Frank watch his eyes the entire time. He doesn't blink unless it is a very slow deliberate blink which is very much like Dougie would do. You know, Dougie would just have that slow blinking as well.
What watch him come They they do some cuts to Lucy so you can't really watch him the whole way, but he has like one blink the entire time. It's so cool. And you know that he like Comic Con is wearing those like contact lenses. That must have been painful as anything to do, but it looks so cool cuz it's very lizard, very reptilian.
>> Yeah, he's snakey snake eyes. Yeah.
>> This is how people behave so I have to blink now. It's It's awesome. But okay.
Anyway, we can move on to >> All right. So I love we we then we finally going to get this scene with uh Frank Truman.
Wonderful. What a great shot of that wide shot of just Andy puts the chair out for him and he's just sitting in that chair and Frank is sitting at his desk. I love that shot. It's so cool. And he say he says no to coffee.
>> Would you like a cup of coffee?
No, thanks. I'm all right.
>> Like Harry would have clocked that immediately. But Frank doesn't know Cooper, so it sort of passes, but it's like a great little callback to later when the real Cooper calls.
>> Yeah.
>> And Truman also says >> Cooper Cooper in the flesh.
>> Cooper Cooper twice, which is awesome.
He says Cooper Cooper just like them the Major's note.
>> Yeah, that was that was a really great moment. I honestly thought Andy was going to clock him whenever he says no to the coffee. I really thought that was to be a moment, but he didn't in that case either. Or maybe he did we just didn't like see it and he goes off and do his does his thing. But that was a really fun moment um for sure.
>> This sequence like when they're so they're cutting to this and they're cutting back to NATO and she's making all this noise. This whole section to me is so intense. That's why it doesn't bother me as much either either having the drunk in there because it just adds to the anxiety and the tension that's ratcheting up in this moment until we get that call. And now this is where we have where the drunk is literally ripping his face off when we're we're inside. Andy's yelling very important very important. And Freddy comes to the rescue, uses his green gloves. We talked about this, knocks Chad out. Uh Nobody nobody cares.
>> [laughter] >> Well, it's just a great to see that come up and so that's fine. I I was happy to see that.
>> Well, we've hit the point. I hope you're holding up together. Dan and I are ready for the back half of this episode like nobody's business. But what are we here? We're here to thank the wonderful people that have supported the show. They have opened up their hearts. They've opened up their wallets. Of course, I'm talking about Chuck Suffle, talking about Gregory Flanagan, talking about my sister Donna Adamo, talking about Banjo Track, I'm talking about Eric Knapp, >> [music] >> Charlie Tapper, Jake Jagello, Matthew Fuller, David Melito, Daryl Dyzen, Dana Gould, Jeff, Henrik E, Concluding Remarks, Brian Johnson, and Meercat.
>> Eric, we're also talking about our friends Raga Raven, Evan Fitz, Hazel Haywood, Ivan, William Shafer, Jordan Carver, Matt W, Nick Webb, Calen Best Lawrence, >> [music] >> He Who Is Clem Vendango aka Luke P, Arthur Hill, Eva, Ben Chisholm, Neil McKenzie, David Titterington, Ethan Berry, Chuck Berry, Halle Berry, >> All right, well, yeah, thank you.
>> Let's Let us get back. It's a long episode, so we got to get back back to back in the saddle and get this thing done.
>> Okay, so meanwhile, Lucy gets a very important call from Cooper and shots are fired.
>> Man, the phone rings. Of course, same phone we saw in the Fireman's Home videos. So, we When Andy got that dump, we saw a shot of the phone. It's the same shot here. So, now we're seeing that future world live out, which is great. Cooper, who? Oh, I love her reaction to the phone when she when she answers it. That Cooper's got Again, I talked about how tense the scene is. It's so good. Frank answering that call.
Wonderful shot. Right back into the opening pilot. Cooper is entering the town of Twin Peaks. We get to see the sign. The world we wanted is coming back.
>> We're just entering Twin Peaks city limits.
Is the coffee on?
Is the coffee on? When he says is the coffee on, you're like, that's my Cooper. Lucy is exactly where she needs to be, by the way, thanks to Andy.
There's that very tense moment when he's going to get the drop on Sheriff Truman and Lucy saves Frank just as Andy saved Harry when he shot Jacques Renault. So, it's great to see them share that moment.
>> My shoulder?
>> Andy.
Are you okay, Harry?
>> Yeah.
>> Better call that ambulance.
>> That was absolutely a a callback to that, right? Cuz that was the first thing I thought of, too.
>> They each saved a Truman brother.
>> That's very important. They're important guys.
Uh the sign as as they're coming back in is the exact same sign, too. So, I mean, do you make the What do you make of that of like they just never got around to update the population number on it or uh it's, you know, the sign from the original show.
>> It's the sign from the original show cuz the population wasn't even right then.
>> I know, that's true. They just added a number.
>> to be 5,000.
>> Yeah, this this scene is is really tense. Whose gun does Lucy have? I'm sorry that I just missed that detail.
Was it Chad's gun?
>> Well, it could be Andy's gun or it could be Chad's gun. I mean, Andy has a gun, so he could easily have given Lucy his gun. She could have a gun. Maybe they have a separate spare gun at the office for an emergency. It is a police station, so I don't think that's it.
>> was completely heart.
>> I You think like I had thought like, oh, maybe it's Chad's gun, so Chad needs to get knocked out so they could take his gun and get it to Lucy, but they don't need to do that. So, I didn't give too much thought of that cuz it they're in a police station, so.
>> Well, cuz that's exactly I thought that it was exactly that that it was going to be Chad's gun, but actually the way that the scenes are ordered, that can't be the case cuz it's still the gun's still down there. It doesn't work out. Yeah, it's it's not that the biggest thing in the world.
Just just wondering. Um one thing I didn't know before uh Frank's badge number.
>> Oh, I didn't notice it. What is it?
>> 271, Eric.
And that's 10.
>> Oh, it is.
>> thought you'd really enjoy that one. So, Frank's a 10.
>> Yeah.
>> Um the hat getting shot >> Yeah, yeah, the hat gets shot back. A little uh >> But there's no there's no hole in it.
It's Okay, I guess it's just silly. I don't know.
In all the things that all the tension that's happening, it felt very much like uh Han shot first or Greedo shot first moment. Um I don't know. It's just It it felt unnecessary and silly and cartoonish to me.
>> It feels like an old Western uh gunslinger moment. He's wearing the hat. He's got the cowboy hat. It's Truman. And here's this new guy coming to town.
>> All right, dude.
This time, right between the eyes.
>> I would have loved a smoking hole in the middle of the top of the hat at the top though. That would have been Yeah, that would have I would have loved that. No, that that would have been so far that it would have been perfect. You got to like go the whole way or don't do it at all.
Um we already mentioned uh Lucy saying, "Andy, I understand cellular phones now." Fantastic line.
>> Couple more things here, too. Like there's um we talked about Andy getting all the prisoners up upstairs. But when Hawk arrives, right? So, they go and they grab Hawk. And when he sees Cooper on the ground and he's like >> That is Agent Cooper.
>> It reminds me so much of Cooper saying >> But it it is Laura Palmer.
>> It was like, "But that is Agent Cooper."
It's like a a mirror of that thing. And the music score here is is so so divine.
>> It's great. Um Hawk did take a sweet ass time to get over there though.
>> Well, they ran and got him, right? They Andy ran to get him, right? I think they somebody >> Andy says he's going to go get Hawk, but then it's several moments later and Hawk comes back in on his own and then Andy comes back in. So, he doesn't even go get Hawk. Hawk must have been over in the the super high-tech office radio room.
>> Maybe he's >> [laughter] >> the 100 other guys over there. Yeah, there could be a whole office full of people that just didn't hear all this going on.
>> Yeah, we don't see any of the other people, right? We don't see um Jeffrey D. Holcomb?
>> No, what's his name?
Um, and Jesse Holcomb. Yeah, I was right.
>> And or the dispatcher, what was her name?
>> Maggie?
>> Yeah, there you go. I knew you'd know that one. We don't get to see them again. That's too bad. They're got They got other things.
>> No, but we do get Bobby. Bobby does make an appearance a little bit later.
>> Bobby does come back. Um, but let's talk about the other people that >> So, yeah, get get Cooper here.
>> Yeah, let's talk about the other people that show up here. Uh, Andy does run off um, when he says he's going to get Hawk, but then he ends up being in the right place at the right time because Cooper and his Vegas pals arrive at the Sheriff's Department as the Woodsman retrieve Bob and Freddy fulfills his destiny.
>> Oh, this part is so good. Yeah?
I mean, what a confrontation. We're seeing like a Bob battle.
Uh, so yeah, so we we we've we've shot the uh, doppelganger. The doppelganger is down. We saw this happen in part eight. The Woodsman drawn to protect Bob, I I assume. I I someone had asked me maybe on Spotify or one of our comments thing about like the Woodsman, like who are the Woodsman? Who do they work for?
And I just tend to see them as these kind of agents of darkness that are kind of attracted to evil, that serve evil, and that are custodials of evil. They sort of run the place above the convenience store. They're like in in the the of the universe in a way, but they're kind of drawn to these things. Now, I wonder, do they also protect good things or they only protect bad things? They seem very evil. I mean, we watched the woodsman cracking people's heads open and stuff like that.
Uh but they're also leading Cooper to uh Philip Jeffries a little bit later in this thing. So, I don't think they're completely evil, but they're interesting and they're coming and the darkness is coming and that light of Cooper and the FBI are rushing to the scene all while this stuff's going out. And when Cooper does arrive and this fight is going on, he is well aware of all of the details of what's happening. So, you've got Freddy like, "Hey, Freddy, get in there and and do your business, right?" So, he knows that Freddy has this glove.
We know the fireman gave him the glove.
So, he is somehow aware of this plan to kill Bob in this moment. And [snorts] this is where I have a little bit of back and forth and I always kind of struggled with this and as I was putting my notes together for the grand outline, I was like, "Do I Do I think it Do I think Cooper knew that he his doppelganger was going to come back or did he think Bob was going to come back out of the lodge? Because that's the rub. If you remember all the stuff that I said in the beginning, I don't know, it was a it was a 3 years ago? hour plus ago at this point. So, I don't know how much of that you remember, but the idea was Gordon Briggs and Cooper all have this plan.
Now, this is before Cooper goes into the lodge. At the time, we don't know where Bob is.
>> They had a plan to find Judy. That that specific plan.
>> Yes. The plan to find Judy. And that gets disrupted from what you said when they find out that the doppelganger is out because the doppelganger >> That's That's what I'm talking about right now. That's That's That's where I'm where I'm at. Exactly where I'm at.
Because the good Cooper, according to what I told you and what I kind of landed on, goes into the lodge, the bad Cooper comes out, the bad Cooper sees Briggs, Briggs is like, "Holy [ __ ] this is the bad Cooper. I got to get this plan together with the Fireman so we can kill him." Now, the good Cooper's in the lodge. He's trapped in the lodge.
How is he aware of these changes? Now, we get one blue rose pass from the from Briggs. In that blue rose did the did the uh Briggs tell Cooper all of the changes that we're actually going to use this guy named Freddy and he's going to show up as well and he's going to kill Bob because he know Cooper is well aware of all of this stuff.
So, it's like did Cooper then become when he was in the place of pure consciousness see the entire story for himself? Did he see the entire story when he woke up and he said, "I am the FBI"? Did he become hyper-aware? I mean, I think his plan is to find Judy to leave the story to go back and save Laura. Did he Was he enlightened to a point when he woke up that now he is ultimately aware of everything? And that kind of makes sense and that's where I was going to land and eventually go when we see his face superimposed over the thing because he's completely outside of the show. So, that's where I landed, but I did sort of struggle to see like, "Okay, did Briggs know before Cooper went in that Bob was going to be here and they were going to kill him?" Or did he change it? And I think I landed on him changing it and that Cooper became enlightened to a point where he was outside the show and could see Briggs's plan. Because otherwise, how would he know How would he know about Freddy?
How would he know um that that was happening? Well, I mean, how how would Briggs know all of the things that he knows? I mean, he's >> Well, he was he was aware of Judy, right? Briggs brings the Judy to Gordon, so that is knowledge. That is he's he's hit that level of understanding.
>> Well, he knows about Judy. It I don't know this clear that he has attained the knowledge from Judy, knows about her.
>> I think he I I would say I think he does because he your father foresaw all of this. He's seeing so far into the future where they have Freddy coming here, and Cooper tells us that a little bit later that who do you what is going on here? Your father knew exactly what was going on here.
>> Bobby, your father was well aware of what's going on here today.
>> So, I give Briggs a lot of credit for um for this plan. It's just that's the one point, but I actually as I said it out loud, I'm falling in love with my own ideas and saying >> [snorts] >> that I do think it is when he awoke, I am the FBI. At that moment, he's become uh more aware of of what's coming.
>> All right. But, yeah, what a fight though. What a fight. The back-and-forth. I don't know what you think of the effects. I like the effects. I like the way that they have multiple Bob heads in the ball. I find it really scary. I like the fact that you also see almost two two timelines going on of um Freddy bleeding and like kind of out of it and then Freddy punching, so it sounds like you I'm going to let you talk cuz it sounds like you don't like this scene as much maybe as me, but I think it's a really cool cool fight. And the soundtrack is Bob is destroyed and then turned into fire before that he comes out again, and then even when he's broken into pieces and those pieces reverse gravity up. Oh, okay. I'll have that uh whole bunch of that.
>> Yeah, there are aspects of it that I like. I like the the visual style. I like the fact that it's like this hyper-saturated um uh shots that are kind of superimposed on top of each other like you see there's multiple Freddies there. Um every the the very shaky camera footage.
Um you know, the effect of of Bob, you know, using multiple seemingly using like uh shots of Frank Silva but like different shots kind of composited together to create this effect is is is pretty cool. I like seeing the the Bob blob floating against the ceiling and the ceiling is very much doubled but like twisted so it's like completely offset. It looks it's a it's a very cool effect. I don't like the fight. The fight is not the fight in in the stylistic terms or in the action or the I don't the meaning of it. The Why is this the way that it's being solved? Why is Freddy getting attacked by Bob and then he punches him and then Bob falls and then Bob gets up and attacks him again. He punches him and he falls. And he punches him through the floor and there's fire but he comes back again.
I don't It just felt messy. It just didn't feel like there was any real I don't know. I just didn't enjoy it at all. Uh the final punch when he like when he gets destroyed and like those pieces getting floating up into the ceiling and disappearing. I thought that was a very cool effect. I actually really enjoyed that. So like the visuals I liked. This back and forth of it just felt it felt boring to me.
>> Okay. Yeah, I I completely disagree. I I mean to me it feels like you're fighting a wild animal that's circling you and you're you're going and it's attacking like the the animals that Sarah Palmer was watching on her TV. Like it's more of a vicious fight with a with a beast of some kind. Like I I I When you think about ways that in which you would fight Bob, I don't know. It feel I I enjoyed the epic nature of it and the strangeness. It's not something that I would ever see in anything else.
>> Sure.
>> That I would ever see a battle like this between these two things. So, I found it very interesting. I love all the effects and all the lights and the layering and the sound design while all this stuff is going on.
>> And already feel that it is like a I talked about folk tales when we originally talked about Freddy cuz I think you were a little hesitant on Freddy from from jump from the jump. The idea that this is magical glove and like he's battling this thing and so I'm in for it I think.
>> Yeah, it's just it is probably my least favorite thing in maybe all of this the return.
>> My favorite thing is that Frank does not get up out of his chair.
That's the thing that [laughter] cracks me up. This crazy fight is going on. All of these people, Candy, Mandy, and Sandy with more sandwiches than you know what to do with. Literally everyone in the story is there and he does not get [laughter] up. He stays in his chair the entire time.
>> point.
>> It's so wild.
>> he's tough man. He knows he's he's he can handle himself. He survived a near miss with a bullet. No, [laughter] I don't know. This this is this is the part where I just It's not for everybody. Yeah.
I guess I'm just disappointed in myself maybe or in whatever cuz I just maybe I don't get it. It just doesn't do it for me and I don't I also don't know I don't understand what we're doing here.
Like why are we why are we killing Bob in this way? Bob was was this embodiment of the ultimate evil in the first two seasons.
Um and in Fire Walk With Me and in the stories to this point. I mean, he wasn't the evil, but he he was this embodiment of it.
And to have him be destroyed in this way >> I would answer that by saying Bob is I talk about this in many ways. I talk about it in the plot, in the layers of the fiction. This is a story about Bob and Bob is real. And then they talk about it metaphorically, and this is a story about sexual abuse and about trauma and about all of these things and the darkness inside humans and the light inside humans.
And so this is a kind of a silly battle against Bob and then you destroy Bob cuz you have a magic glove >> Right.
>> it's going to knock it out. And then the lesson of the show and the what you find out and now he's trying to save Laura and Laura disappears and you hear her scream is that he's not listening to the sounds. He's not hearing Laura. He's not hear He's robbing her of her agency and he's not listening to the pain. It's like uh Ruby is her name, Ruby?
>> ground, yeah.
>> that's on the floor of the Roadhouse that's screaming that no one's paying attention to. It's like this they're trying to fix this evil in this very you know, uh story way when it's really the pain that to me that's what we we're going to go into and we're talk about in a few a few scenes from now. But I think that's kind of in intentional. Right? I hate to say the word intentional cuz I just said I don't like intentional, but that's how I feel about it.
Is that, you know, it is like a simple guy's way of solving all of the problems is I'm going to punch the [ __ ] to death and not listen to the people that are in trouble.
>> But it but it it works in this like it is >> Does it work?
>> Does it?
I mean, Bob gets destroyed from what we see in this episode. He gets destroyed and broken to pieces and he's gone. So I don't know what happens in the next episode, but like we're at this moment we're meant to believe that >> Well, how is Sarah doing? How is Sarah doing?
>> Well, she's not doing great.
>> Okay, so did it work?
>> I don't know.
>> How is Laura doing? Did we solve much?
>> When I think about the When I think about the Bob that we see in in the rest of the story, particularly and I know this is, you know, separate from the show, but particularly the Bob that we see through Laura's Laura's eyes in her diary.
And to have some random guy, seemingly random, comes out of nowhere who I also said for Freddy, his accent feels cartoonish and over the top and unreal to me, um put on, uh even if it is actual accent to be accentuated, um to have a magic glove that the fireman said, "Go to the store, go to the end of the aisle, find the one glove, you're going to fly to Twin Peaks. Oh, here's your Here's your plane ticket to get you there." It is all so contrived.
>> It's a story, yeah.
>> And that's the answer to kill Bob at the end? It feels anticlimactic. It doesn't feel commensurate with this pain, this trauma. And I love your point about like we're not listening to the the women.
We're not listening to the people we're trying to be the white knight coming in.
Cooper coming in and thinking he can fix everything by taking her out of her own story. I That is fine. I don't see how that connects to Freddy punching Bob.
>> Because that's their answer to the problem.
>> Who's they? Who's they? I'm sorry.
>> Cooper, uh the major, they think that they can do this plan and then they can solve it, but it's deeper than that. We'll watch and we'll watch next episode as well, but I mean I think you get some of that in this episode towards the end. And then we'll revisit, obviously talk more uh next week for part 18, but I think the lesson of this is this is not uh the way to solve a problem.
>> Okay.
No, I I I totally buy that. I I >> But I I enjoy it. I enjoy the fight. I enjoy the way it looks. I think it it feels great, you >> I like the visual. I'm with you I'm with you on the way that it was shot. I like the the visual aspect of the sound design is really cool. Um it just I guess the thing that I'm I'm kind of realizing and maybe I just need to see the the the end of this. It just didn't feel commensurate with the pain and everything that Laura's gone through to be to punch Bob a few times and then he explodes. Like so it didn't feel right to me.
>> If this was the end, if that was the end, right? It's punch Bob a few times and then he goes, he gets Laura and he saves her and she's living on a farm and she's waving.
Yeah, then I would say sure. That That doesn't work. But that's not how even this episode ends.
This episode ends in a very specific way that let's get to it. I mean, we're going to we're going to get there today.
>> Okay. Well, let's move on. Uh, after the fight Cooper explains that things are going to change including NATO.
>> Yeah, but I talked about Bob being shattered. I love seeing the pieces of egg float upwards towards our story. Um, and we are left with the quote-unquote I say success arc which I think is you know, I kind of talked about before and I have success in quotes for a reason.
Uh, I don't want to say this is a phony ending.
Um, but in a way this is the ending of the dream of Twin Peaks like that it would be this easy and that you would just do this. You would punch Bob and destroy him and everyone be be fine.
So, it's it's this fantasy ending uh, to to put to use some words just like the tulpa's life with Janey-E and everything else. It's this uh, delusion delusional ending. Uh, Cooper puts the ring on Mr. C thus sending him back to the lodge and then we get the goddamn Mitchum brothers.
>> One for the grandkids.
>> Which I absolutely love. Which is a story that you tell your grandkids. It's all about storytelling and passing these myths down as well. So, I love the line cuz it's funny, but I also love the line cuz it speaks to storytelling.
>> You were talking about this this fantasy this fantasy ending of it. Um, think feel like throughout so much of this, especially when when we see NATO transform into uh Diane, is this dream wish fulfillment that we're seeing throughout all of this.
Um, but that's all.
All right. So, Briggs told him, um, he cuz he goes up to Frank, Cooper goes up to Frank, and then he says, "Hey, >> Frank, do you have the room key to the Great Northern Hotel, 315?"
>> What?
How do you know about >> Major Briggs told me Sheriff Truman would have it.
>> Briggs told me that you're going to have the key to the Great Northern So, the Great Northern key, his room key is very important. It's going to unlock this door because Briggs, again, Briggs saw it all. He saw outside the story, and now so does Cooper. Briggs told him this is part of the plan. We're going to go to this door in the basement, and we're going to move We're going to move through time.
Uh at this point, we see Cooper's face superimposed over this entire scene.
>> We live inside a dream.
>> Which, my reading, he is outside of the show. He's able to exist outside of the tulpa that is Twin Peaks, this shared dream that we all have.
Dan has, I have, you have, who are listening to me or we're all We're all dreaming, and we're all the dreamer. Uh many people believe this is like why Cooper is considered the dreamer. Who is the dreamer? It's Cooper. This whole thing is in Cooper's dream, I guess.
That's not for me, but that this is a strong piece of evidence that you would say, "Oh, literally, he says we all live inside a dream, and here's here's literally We look like we're superimposed in his mind or whatever." I don't believe that, but uh that's certainly something to think about. Uh again, yeah, in my room in my world, in my world, we are all the dreamer, and we share one common dream, and it all comes from the ocean of pure consciousness.
So, yes, Cooper is a dreamer, but so is David Lynch. Uh so are you, so am I. Uh you know, he also says your father was a well aware of what was going on here today and I love love that line so much.
I love that he says also he's right here, right on time.
>> Many years ago, information your father gathered brought him together with director Gordon Cole, who is here right on time.
>> Just like in episode 16 >> Now excuse us.
Major Briggs, right on time.
>> Episode 16, that's the one if you remember where uh they solved the murder of Laura Palmer and they're all at the roadhouse and he Oh, yeah. He comes right on time and the major brings the giant or the the stand-in for the giant, the waiter. So there's a connection as well. It's like the fireman and the major are working together. The fireman and the major are there in that moment. That moment when Twin Peaks changed, that moment when they took literally took Laura Palmer story out of Twin Peaks was in that episode.
>> My father [music] killed me.
>> And the show changed and some things changed, some things stayed the same, but ultimately it it suffered for it.
>> I had never really put that together.
That's that's when he says things are going to change.
I didn't really connect that and Laura leaving the you know, the Laura mystery leaving the original series and Laura being pulled out of this. Okay, that's really cool.
>> Yep.
>> And of course yeah, on plot-wise because he's changing the past, he's going to change the future.
>> That that I got. Yeah, I got the literal part of this. I did make that connection before. That's very cool.
>> Which some things will be the same, some things won't. God bless Candy as well with her sandwiches. I could definitely do for a Candy spin-off.
The hand-to-hand Diane, as she's released from her prison and we reveal that Naido was Diane the whole time. I don't know if you could remember that or not, but it's interesting when you think back at Diane's apartment and there's we're like there's all these Asian art art pieces everywhere and she's of course, you know, Naido this entire time.
The scarred face that falls away and then you see the red room there and that that like prison flesh or that held her is destroyed and the real Diane emerges the real Diane emerges red hair and all.
That's really striking imagery. [snorts] >> through that too. Yeah, it's incredible, but you can also see superimposed throughout a lot of that is Diane's face very lightly through all of that. So the black smoke that comes up, you can see her eyes and nose there even with that like crack comes up and the smoke comes out of the mouth area and the red room, you still see Diane's face a little bit through all of that. But I think that that fleshy pod that comes in is so gross. It's fantastic, but it reminds me of makes me think of that like rotting meat thing that came out of Dougie as well. So it's really I love that that design is gross.
>> Yeah, that's what Mr. C is working in some weird material, friends.
Of course, then they kiss, right? And this is an important kiss because it's just like the old story that she told that she knew when the doppelganger kissed her that it wasn't him. And here she kisses him and she tells tells him that, you know, she knows now that it is him. The entire cast or most of the cast including one of the show's creators literally they're all standing around watching this.
Cooper's [snorts] face as well superimposed over this whole thing.
Then he asks her, "Do you remember everything?"
And the time is also stuck on 2:53, which is a 10, the number of completion.
And so yeah, for for my money he told her about this way back when and of course he was communicating with Naido in the the ocean of pure consciousness as well. So, they were sharing things about the plan.
We saw Diane's tulpa start to become Oh, Cooper said that So, she was aware even in that moment about the coordinates. So, again, that's what starts to make me think like, "Okay, well, then if Cooper's aware of the coordinates as well, does he know that like why would they need the coordinates other than to lure Mr. C there? So, what Do you understand what I'm saying? I keep getting >> No, say say again. Say it again.
>> He asked her if she remembers everything.
>> Yes.
>> Right? You remember that part.
>> Earlier, Diane's tulpa is is earlier like two episodes ago or one last episode, I guess.
When right before she does she she got shot and is is killed, she's at the bar.
She gets the happy face all.
She starts to become aware, right? And now you think about that, "Oh, I'm at the sheriff station." And you're like, "Oh, okay." cuz she's becoming aware of herself at the sheriff station. She's seeing through her own eyes cuz she literally is at the sheriff station. But I'm distracting myself. So, she gets the text.
And she starts to wake She starts going, "I remember." right?
>> [sighs and gasps] >> Oh, Coop.
>> I remember, right? Do you remember? I remember. Cooper >> Yes.
>> Cooper said something and she has to send It's as if she's like, "Yes, it's as part of the plan for you to send the text to him." because that's part of the Major's plan. And he's I hope this works that we get him and then he gets caught.
Which means Cooper knows about this part of the plan. So, if Cooper knows about this part of the plan, how did they think Bob Who did they think Bob was going to be in in order to be lure lured to the sheriff station to for them to punch if not the doppelganger, but he didn't know he's going to be the doppelganger cuz apparently Briggs was surprised he was a doppelganger. He wrote about it in the secret history.
>> Unless when Cooper you said goes out of the story and into the fortress.
>> But how would he communicate with the tulpa to so that the tulpa would know?
>> Probably magic, I would guess.
>> Yeah, so I don't know. I I get hung up on those details because if you take it that okay, Cooper's always known, they've all known this plan and they've all known that Mr. C was going to come out, it breaks so many things in the story that I don't want to do that.
And if you don't know, then it could be that like literally she's getting messages from Cooper from the future. I don't know. I don't know.
It's just something to to put down there and make you have a hard time sleeping.
The time the clock is struck stuck 2:53 again 2:53 on the clock where we're at this moment, this junction in time when we're going to break everything and it's 10. We are told at this moment that we live inside of a dream.
And we see that dream, the dream of Twin Peaks right in front of us. Cooper is going to leave the show and reenter it in the past and change it.
Cooper also yelling Gordon as the lights go out.
>> Gordon, Coop.
>> It's just like when Jeffries arrives.
>> Gordon.
Gordon.
>> Like this is a dangerous game we're playing. We saw what happened when um Jeffries time traveled. He ended up as not a teapot.
And now Cooper is going to do the same thing.
So, a lot of crazy stuff going on.
>> Yeah.
I don't know what I don't have really a lot to add to this.
Um I mean, I Again, I don't I don't I haven't fully put together all my thoughts on how I feel about all of this, but we we get everyone all gathered here today. We get you know, the entire cast is there from Vegas. We get finally Gordon shows up just in time with Albert and Tammy.
But to not do anything, it is just it feels like a curtain call. Feels like everyone's taking their last bow. It but it's the it's the fantasy wrapping up of the Twin Peaks story.
And I don't, you know, the the whole Diane was NATO, Diane is now she and Cooper are able to have this kiss that kind of is the mirror image, the healing of the trauma that she went through with Mr. C.
It all feels like a fantasy. It all feels like wish fulfillment. It feels like a a nice dream, but none of it feels real to me at all.
>> No, I was just going to say because it isn't real. It's a it's the story of Twin Peaks and we're literally getting to the edge of that story because the director of the story is going to walk our cast out to the to the edge of it.
>> I do There's a just a small moment but but when Cooper says, "And that's what brought us all here today. Now, there are some things that will change." And he looks at Hawk and Hawk nods. I just I like that they cut to Hawk nodding along with this. Just He has been such a wise guide through all of this, you know, giving of information about the >> And he knows something about Judy as well, right? This thing outside of Twin Peaks looking down and you don't want to know >> You don't want to know about that.
>> about Judy.
>> Never You never want to know about that.
Yeah, the dweller on the threshold, all the stuff that was so instrumental in in Cooper's understanding of things. Um But yeah.
But we can just get on into it.
Let's walk through that dark void, Eric.
We got Cooper, Diane, and Cole. They part ways in the basement of the Great Northern.
>> Yeah, as I said, creator co-creator and director of this show we are watching leads those two leading actors to the edge of the show, the boundary between this story and another beyond.
The door I mentioned that James discovered. You said, "Oh, what are you looking at this door for? Why is it making noises?" Like this is why. This is a very special door. The door to this room is opened with the key. Twin Peaks literally opens the door, the thing we associate with Cooper and his room.
Cooper says, "See you at the curtain call." He literally says, "See you at the curtain call." Curtain call is the time in a performance when the stars turn >> and a time presents itself.
>> And to which the cast changes from the character to the actor. And there's a time to applaud and you can exist outside the story. The idea of the story is broken and you accept this is not the slim good body one-man show.
This is Dan Johnson. So when Dan unzips his skin-tight slim body suit, we know at the curtain call that it's now Dan. It's not slim good body.
>> No one under 50 is going to have any idea what we're talking about.
>> But this ties directly into all of the things I've been saying about how our souls are forever. The body, the vessel is mutable just as actors portray different characters, they still remain themselves. Kyle MacLachlan is still Kyle MacLachlan whether he's playing all these characters or not and we too portray different roles but we remain one stone. It's very important as we get into the next episode of that idea. But he does say, you know, "See you at the curtain call." We remember that episode.
The stars turn and a time presents itself and that's what happens at the curtain call.
>> I do like Cole also saying, "Be thinking of you, Coop." Because it very much is like David Lynch, you know, loving the stories. He's going to carry this character in his heart for the the of time which is is great.
Um And it it is a small detail. I'm not sure that means much of anything, but as Cooper opens the door, he tells them, "Don't follow me, either of you." He closes the door. Diane and Gordon turn their heads from looking at each other to looking at the door, but the shot is actually in reverse.
Um if you look in the background, you can see that the steam is going downwards, and the blink is backwards.
Grant you can tell kind of when people are blinking. So, yeah, it it is a reverse shot. They were actually looking at the door and then turned to look at each other, and they reversed it.
On the other side of the door, Cooper meets Mike, and they travel to the Dutchman.
>> Yeah, the door again again, Mike ready to say his favorite poem.
Uh he's going to take him to the place above the convenience store, uh and then we're going to go to the Dutchman's Lodge from there to see Jeffries.
Cooper, the magician, of course, he's longing to see the truth of it all. He wants knowledge. He wants to see it all.
He thinks he can solve everything. Mike is there almost like welcoming this action, and you always wonder about Mike, and is he good? Is he Is he really a force for good? Is he bad? I don't know. It's I like to think that he's a reformed bad guy, but uh I have a soft spot for some of these reformed bad guys, and maybe he isn't. Maybe he's been playing me this whole time.
Great great effects uh sound effects that sounds like wild animals as we go up those stairs uh to the Dutchman's.
>> Yeah, I just I do like that we get Mike getting to recite his favorite poem again, but it's also so literal here uh through the darkness of future past that we're in this dark void, and he's going back to try to change the change the past. Um he is the literal magician here, kind of being able to come outside the world. Um that's this chance between two worlds to fix things. So, it's just taking this thing that was from the very beginning and kind of recontextualizing it making it very literal.
>> He should have had to chant something though. He should have had to yell something at some point to just go a completely full >> Everything is being very >> Yeah, he had to chant out.
>> Um and the you know the uh it was the the visual effect too. You get the two of them uh cutting back and forth rapidly between the two of them as the lights flashing, but then they also flip horizontally as well. So, cuts back and forth and each of their faces flip as well. It's just a really cool like I don't know what to make of it, but it looked pretty awesome. Um and then as we go up the stairs, they open the door to go to the the parking lot outside the uh Dutchman. The bright light comes through there. The camera shakes and then jumping man comes down the stairs. I just like that we get these random like I don't know where Oh, [ __ ] The jumping man. And it always is like this weird jump scare. It's great though. Um you get that that crazy the electricity noise in the background.
Um But here we are. Cooper and Mike talk with Jeffries.
>> I love when he's like be specific. He's like >> [laughter] >> How many times do I need to do exactly what you want, right? So, he's Cooper wants to go to a specific date, February 23rd, 1989 to be exact. Thursday, this is the last night of Laura's life even though people will tell me it's actually February 24th. Yes, I know she died after midnight, so it's fine. But yes, February 23rd is where we're going. I love the note that Gordon will remember the unofficial version.
>> Yeah.
>> Of course meaning after the change. He says, "Say hello to Gordon. He'll remember the unofficial version. This is where you'll find Judy." Now, on a regular old plot level, yeah, Gordon will will remember both timelines. The one where Laura's murdered and the one with her uh without her being murdered, with her disappearing. But it seems something very different to me or means something different to me.
Uh and that is David Lynch will know the unofficial or original version because he made the show, but I'll talk more specifically about that uh and where you will find Judy next week. So, I don't want to spend too much time on that detail.
>> What as as you're in this section here, uh he says after this Jeffries does, "This is where you'll find Judy. There may be someone. Did you ask me this?"
>> Yeah, very interesting.
>> What do you What do you make Yeah, what do you make of that? I don't >> It's like he's hearing a question that was not asked. Um which is neat.
>> There There may be someone?
>> Yeah, did you ask me this? So, like it's as if like he's answering a question that has not been asked and then he's catching himself saying, "Did you ask me this?" That's the way I'm taking it. I don't know Yeah.
>> No, cuz I like that because he cuz he also says like it's slippery in here.
Like be specific. He's trying to find the time to slippery in here. And I I I like the idea of like he he is just slipping through time.
It's so easy for him to get into the wrong exact spot that he needs to go.
So, he's like, "Be specific." So, that makes sense that he's like, "Wait, did you already say this or did this not happen, but it actually happened in a different timeline or or whatever?" He's He's just trying to keep it together.
>> Right. I'm sure that is an answer to some question that I don't know what it is, but maybe you can go back and find the question and be like, "Oh, there may be someone is an answer to some off Oh, I wonder the line like whatever, but I I don't know. I don't know what there there may be someone means.
>> Do you think maybe if you were to look at this conversation and the previous conversation with Mr. C and Jeffries because he's so he was so um evasive in his answering and not quite answering Mr. C then maybe if you put these two halves together, they actually That's cool.
>> but yeah yeah.
>> Okay, interesting.
>> While he's saying this as well, while he's saying, "There may be someone. Did you ask me this?" Mike's reaction is wild. He's nodding both in the affirmative and the negative. So, he does like a yes nod and a no nod.
So, there may be someone, yes. Did you ask me this, no. Maybe or maybe it's just supposed to be that he's doing two different things. I don't know what's going on with Mike, but I took it as the answer answer.
>> All of this Mike with my notes, the first thing is Mike just looks so confused by all this. Like it's maybe not what he expected. I don't know cuz he just comes in and he just This was not maybe what he expected to see. I don't know if he's ever seen Jeffries like this before, so I don't know that he Maybe he's out of his depth.
>> I took it as like a nodding yes and then shaking his head no. It felt very deliberately yes and no, but I don't know your mile your mileage may vary.
>> Well, my note was from the very beginning but when they first come into the room. So maybe I don't know. Crazy.
>> It's a sight to behold Jeffries I think.
>> We see that owl cave symbol, right?
>> this stacked diamonds.
>> You know >> Black Lodge, White Lodge or however you want to read it. It becomes an eight this looped time, this timeline. And I loved like the choice of like finding 1989 on that February of 1989 on that.
You see that little dot which breaks the closed loop and the whoop whoop is now broken and you see that point that they're going to they're enter and I love the sound that you hear like the sound of the fan.
As we go we go into 1989. It's really good.
>> Yeah. Yeah, using the sound of the fan is was a such great idea. And now we get We get Mike saying electricity finally.
It's the sound effect that we've been using for all of our videos for so long and it finally gets to >> Yeah, many many of the sound effects come from this episode. I took it I took that one and we live inside of >> Yeah. Yeah. We live inside of a dream, all that.
It's terrific. So this entire time I've been waiting to actually hear them in place in the entire show. So it was it was a good moment for me.
I love this this the static sound and the glitching of Cooper as the whooshing sound comes up, but the pausing on him with his eyes closed and goes into black and white was a very good choice. I just like that he is has his eyes closed in that in that second. Could have chosen any frame, but that was such a cool frame to to end on.
As we head back to 1989, Cooper appears in the woods as James and Laura ride toward Sparkwood 21 at the beginning of what was Laura's last night.
>> Oh, but you see like the house and then seeing freaking Leland peering out the window in black and white. Again, black and white, you know, this is sort of the past timeline that is our old timeline and then when we change to color, we're now creating a new timeline. So, it's it's neat to see the house. It's neat to see it in black and white. We don't really, you know, Cooper hiding in the woods. We're going to talk a little bit more about the next scene is when she actually sees him, right? Is that when we're Is that how you broke this out?
>> Yeah, we're about to That's That's after this.
>> So, I won't I won't talk about that part then.
>> Yeah, I mean, what do you What do you feel about the Cooper peering in the woods and it's almost as retconning for cuz I love that moment in Fire Walk With Me as as Laura screams. That scream is incredible to begin with.
>> Laura.
>> [screaming] >> What's wrong?
What?
movie Help.
>> But that scream to me then was her realization of Oh God, I love James and if if I love him too much, he's in danger.
It's her realizing there's nothing of me left, the horror of of what she feels like she's become.
And now it's if you read it literally, it's like, "Ah, there's a guy in the bushes." And I don't know if I like that.
>> Well, she reacts to someone and she reacts to someone in the movie that someone's over there.
>> She She reacts to something. You never see what it is.
>> You don't see what it is, but I always took it as someone someone is out there.
She does plenty of screaming that's that's that's part of all of the things you're saying, but that's like a literal >> I I I No, because I because it comes right at that moment after she is says, you know, James, I love you so much and and realizes in danger. That's not ever how I saw it. You've seen it a money more times than I have. It's like one of your favorite movies, but I've never seen it that way. So, to me to to have it be Cooper there just feels I I just felt a little silly, honestly.
Felt a little silly to me. I I don't like it. Um >> Yeah, I know I like it.
I think it's cool that they they had they connected it back to that moment.
Yeah.
>> Was there anything else in this scene that was different than what is in the the film version? Was it all shot-for-shot the same or was there anything different in here?
>> Well, there's new shots obviously of his POV through the woods.
>> That's all new.
>> it it just said this part before Laura runs off into the woods.
>> I It's all the same shots from what I remember. I mean, it's possible they're pulling other things. I I did Most of the close-ups, I remember they look to me they remind me of the same the same shots. But they they're they're adding shots of Laura through trees at a distance that is new.
>> [snorts] >> Uh yeah, anyway, I think it's a great way. I I enjoy that they connect her reacting and seeing something and then whatever to Cooper, it doesn't doesn't bother me. I I feel like that I like what that they did that. Obviously, they didn't plan to do that, but I feel like it works here. I just This also makes me remind me how much I love Fire Walk With Me watching this whole sequence. The line, your Laura disappeared as well has has another level of meaning now because she will disappear quite literally in a a few minutes. I don't love the all If I had two things that about the return that are maybe like things that I'm like, "Eh." It's like Gordon looking at Tammy's rear end and with Albert. And the CGI. Now, I It's not terrible, but it does take me out of it a little bit. I don't know how else you would have done it. It's again, it's not atrocious. It is, you know, they they they It's Sheryl Lee, you know, and stuff and and doing whatever they did on the face, but it does It's a just a little off for me. I I just It's fine though. It's not It's a minor complaint. I don't know how You would need to do the scene.
You wouldn't be able to just shoot the back of her head or something. That would be stupid. And so, you you kind of have no choice, but I love that Laura recognizes him from her dream. Yes, we saw this in Fire Walk With Me. And we we also she wrote about It's kind of the dream from I remember from the secret diary. So, that is cool. And man, Cooper just full of confidence and testing the fates here. He reaches out his hand. He's interfering with the story. He's going to break the story.
It's a story of Orpheus, you know, where Orpheus goes into the underworld to rescue his dead love.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh here it is. And we're going to see what happens. So, so it's not that Laura is gone either. It's not like Laura didn't exist.
It's that Laura is taken out of the story. So, she's still she's gone.
On February 24th, there's no body found, but then Laura's not found. She's been removed.
And now is when we go into this color version, right right before we see some of these images. Right We go from the old timeline to this new timeline where Laura's taken out. And I love that he says, you know, "Where we going?" "We're going home."
>> [music] >> Where are we going?
>> We're going home.
>> You know, it's like the man from another place told Cooper in the missing pieces, there's no place to go but home.
>> No, there is.
No, there is.
School, no.
I don't.
>> Where do you call the place where people live? We call that place home. We have been told time and time again we live inside of a dream.
So, for him when he says he's taking her home, he's taking her to what he thinks is going to be the White Lodge. He is going to save her.
Uh even Norma says, you know, uh before the the music swells up like, I want to spend more time at home, which is the dream of Twin Peaks. So, it's like that's what to me what what home means.
But he thinks he's taking her to the White Lodge where she can be safe from Leland. We saw one angel in Fire Walk with me because Laura was in the Lodge, but she saved herself.
And now, Andy saw this homemade movie with their plan where Laura's flanked by two angels, an image that was in partial color as opposed to black and white, which are the pictures I believe that preceded that were in black and white.
And this is sort of Cooper's attempts to save her. We're going to talk much [snorts] more about that next week.
Um but by doing this and by sparing her death, all these events in Twin Peaks are going to be altered and changed.
Past dictates the future, we're shown the pilot, there's no body, uh Laura's not dead, but she's gone, and we also are shown Oh, I talked about this before, what becomes of Sarah.
And she's screaming in [ __ ] in horror and attacking the picture. And yes, you can say one level story level, she's full of Judy, this is Judy's wrath, she gets trapped in this timeline that now we're changing and the timeline's going to break and maybe she'll be trapped in it. Uh but I don't think so. This is where I I look at this stuff more metaphorically and I think this is a broken mother whose daughter went missing and who never had closure.
And now, while Judy is a evil force of too much knowledge, this is like the result of no knowledge. This is like no closure. This is like going on for 25 years never knowing what happened all of a sudden, your daughter's just gone.
This is a terrible thing and it's caused her to resent and hate her daughter in a way for the misery that she's become.
So, that's that's the way I read that particular scene.
>> Oh, that's interesting.
I think the most important thing is we get to see Pete fishing.
>> We do. We get that little opening scene and we get to see Josie again, [laughter] which is nice.
>> No, we get to get to see all those things. And it was cool to see the pilot also blown up, you know, on this, you know, 4K version of it. Um Pete coming out after we see the the body disappear from on the shoreline beside the tree and then Pete coming out there's no body there. But, then the shot of clearly not Pete fishing. It looked like it's the clothing was so ill-fitting. It looked like a kid in his dad's clothes.
Um that just it took me out a little bit, but it was very it was funny just to see that. Um Yeah, no, but all this the, you know, Cooper trying to be this white knight, he the hubris of him that he thinks he can do this, that he thinks he knows how to save her, that he's the one, the champion that's going to rewrite her story for her is is really interesting, too. That moment of going from black and white to color whenever she takes his hand and and he's going to be the one to to save the day.
Yeah, it's just crazy. Um the amount of time that we sit in the Palmer house, in that living room that we spent time watching Sarah, um you know, trapped there. And all we hear is that wailing offscreen.
>> Who's >> it's a good [clears throat] It's a good like, what, 30, 45 seconds that you don't see her, you just hear her wailing.
>> Uh so just left your imagination what's going on. And she comes in and she uh sweeps the photos off of the the table and it she glitches that moment there with the jumping of time uh as she's doing that and then she's stabbing the photo. For some reason I just reminded me of just like Leland's breaking up the photo of of her. But then that was like unintentional. This is her absolutely like stabbing at it with the broken bottle, the alcohol of course, uh on top of all that. Um Yeah, it was great. You don't ever even see her face, too. Um it's just your hair's over her face. You don't ever even really see uh Sheryl Palmer's face.
>> She's behind her back.
>> Yeah. Uh so it's that was just a a terrifying scene as it kind of glitches out. She's stabbing it.
Uh meanwhile Cooper leads Laura through the forest until they're separated.
>> Yeah, and Cooper turns to Laura and she's gone. Again, I mentioned story of Orpheus and Eurydice. And now Eurydice dies and Orpheus is terribly depressed.
He plays sad music.
>> [laughter] >> He's emo.
>> He bums He bums the world out. He's emo.
He gets the hairs in front of his eyes.
He's going through some stuff. He makes a deal with Hades, right? He's going to travel to the underworld and save his true love, but uh there two conditions, right, Dan?
She's got to walk behind him and he can't turn around.
>> Right.
>> And he can't He starts He can't hear her.
And it starts to freak him out. And so he's crippled with that, looks back, she's gone forever. And in this scene, all the sound goes out at the moment before he turns around.
And all we hear is the sound of the fireman's phonograph. The sound that we learned from, thanks to a listener, I can't remember your name, apologies, that that was the this is the opening of Laura's diary. It's the same sound because Cooper Cooper didn't listen to Laura. Cooper didn't listen to what she was saying. He took away her agency. He robs her of the triumph over Bob from Fire Walk With Me.
He's told literally told to listen to the sounds and he was told to listen to Laura, but there's like this arrogance in his decision that he thinks that this is going to this is it. This is going to protect her and it's going to make everything better and it makes everything worse. And now she's gone and you know, we hear her scream and it's like Ruby crawling on the floor of the roadhouse. We don't listen to these women of Twin Peaks and we only hear their screams when it's too late when they're already gone.
So that's the way I took this scene before we go into the the roadhouse. Let me let me add on to that. Yes, you're talking about mythology and story.
Another besides Orpheus and Eurydice it reminds me of the biblical tale of Lot fleeing Sodom and Gomorrah. He was told by the angels that you can leave. You can take your wife with you, but you cannot look back at the city.
And he disobeys and looks back and she turns into a pillar of salt. So it's a very similar >> There's also a lot of stuff with with Leland and his daughters and Lot's daughters, right? I mean that's a We don't want to talk about that part of that story.
>> Let's just focus on one bit at a time.
But the way that also this I can't I don't know how to describe it.
I mean do you see it like as as an arrogance of Cooper thinking that he can do this his his pulling Laura through the forest. Like not walking beside her.
She's not equal with him. She's not he doesn't have his arm around her. He's their arms are as extended as possible.
He is like that it looks almost like uncomfortable that he's reaching back and their hands are so tenuously held together that it wasn't a surprise whenever he turns and she's she's gone.
So it really felt like she was being dragged through as opposed to being aided or helped.
>> She's not even asked. She's not even asked.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, okay.
>> That's what I'm saying. Yeah, you know, though he thinks he's going to save her.
He takes away her agency.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> She is and it and it's a terrible result.
>> Yeah, and that scream again. So, we get the same scream as in part one of of Laura being put in the red room.
Now, she's screaming here. And then we just really have this moment in the forest where he's just kind of panning across the the greenery for quite a long time there before we come over to to the roadhouse.
There wasn't anything in there that I was supposed to be seeing, right? Cuz I kept looking I was like, is there >> No, I think just you're supposed to take in right, take in that she's gone.
>> The seriousness of that moment, yeah.
Okay.
>> that something something maybe has happened that shouldn't.
>> Yeah.
Well, something that should happen is Julee Cruise performing more at the roadhouse, but we get to hear her performing The World Spins.
>> Yeah, a beautiful song, you know, reminding us that the thing we love is gone, but the world spins and it's happening again and again and again.
Um beautiful song, great to see Julee Cruise. You know, a little behind-the-scenes stuff, maybe not so great, but I don't know what what your thoughts.
>> I don't know or I can just talk about it. You could just talk about it. I know, no, it's just it's a great performance. It's nice to see her uh live and in person performing the song with the full band there and that she's credited Julee Cruise as herself in the credits is nice as well.
>> Very short, it's only like 3 minutes, but the actual performance I think is like 6 minutes, maybe even longer. It's on the Blu-ray, but she was not happy with this. So, when this aired she like went out on Facebook and she wrote, "I'm done and I could care less about Twin Peaks.
My subconscious never lies. I have my answer now and what I will do with the rest of my life." Now, she was mad at David Lynch because she kind of didn't want to do the show and then they talked her into doing the show and then I think she had some [snorts] disagreement or something with a production person on the show or something and and he cut it's a very short scene so it's not the whole performance and I think she was upset with the cut. And then later, Scott Ryan who wrote the the book about Twin Peaks that I I interviewed him on and I wish we could go back in time cuz I would ask him about this question but the Twin Peaks blog quoted his book so I will quote the what they quoted and also give both of them credit cuz it's Scott Ryan's book but it's coming from Twin Peaks blog. So she wrote, "Everyone thought I was angry at the end of part 17 because I didn't get enough airtime."
said Cruise. "This is not it at all really.
David does thing that will make me look good so I think that's a error on their quote, right? David does thing that will make me look good. He would not ever do anything to compromise his work. Hell no. It was a glance in the past. It was beautifully done. I was hyper and nervous and didn't know what to expect. I did get a weird direction before I started. I have a photo of what I'm doing. It is quite different from what you see. That is not my face. I'm not sad during that song. I'm not exuberant. The song is hope. The song is reality to me. I had it played at my mom's funeral. This isn't a sad song.
This is a life after life. It is very Carl Jungian. It is a simple way for this complicated person to live." That's what she wrote in his book in reaction to that. I'm not sure I 100% follow everything that is going on but I think she was unhappy with the edit.
And I think maybe she was unhappy with someone in on in the production at the time that maybe was giving her directions on how to perform and to be more maybe somber and when she wanted to approach it a different way.
I'm guessing. I'm I'm not sure. But they I've talked about it before.
They were like sometimes uh oil and vinegar those two. Like they they all they did fight and they had a falling out for many years and then came back together. So it's I think that was just they had a complicated relationship her and David.
Her and David I say David as if like >> Well, you and David are really good friends.
>> hanging out with him.
>> Um yeah, the only thing I I didn't like about that performance is the others it felt so short and there wasn't much there wasn't much of her singing. It was very much the song and the vibe and the feeling of it and the and the music itself is beautiful, but very little of her voice, which was the only part that felt a little off to me. And unfortunately >> have if you were following her on Facebook, you could have gave her a comment along those lines and had her back.
>> Uh poor Julie, if I can go back in time, that's the thing I would try to correct.
>> Yeah, rest rest in peace.
All right, yeah, I hope I hope you enjoyed it and let me know what you think. Goodnight, everybody.
>> Goodnight, everybody.
>> Thank you for listening to the meanwhile podcast with Dan [music] Johnson and Eric Grissom.
If you would like to support the meanwhile podcast, join our Patreon.
It's available right now. You can sign up and for just a few [music] dollars a month, you can keep this show going and you can get access to some exclusive podcasts [music] and some secret stuff that you're not going to find anywhere else. So if you'd like to join, go to ericgrissom.com/meanwhile and look for the Patreon link. If you like our show, please consider rating and reviewing the podcast [music] on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're hearing this now. Meanwhile is produced by Eric Grissom and Where's My Robots. The meanwhile theme song is written and performed by Paul Finn and [music] Evening Pines. If you want to let us know what you thought of the show, you can reach Dan at danjnj.com both on the web and on Blue Sky. Eric can be We on Blue Sky at ericgrissom.com, which is also his website. It's also me, right? That's weird.
We'll see you again, and in the meantime, [music] be good.
>> I listen to the sounds.
>> Meanwhile >> [screaming] >> Where's my robot? See, you know.
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