Breeders Were Right--This IS Something NEW In Boas! | Reptile Genetics Weekly Ep 150

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:05]Hi, this is Dr. Ben Morrill. Welcome to episode 150 of Reptile Genetics Weekly.

[00:00:10]Um our original intro had some some buggy problems and desyncing with the audio, stuff like that. So, we're going to put this in to bridge that gap. Uh it's going to be a awesome episode. Um I'm very excited for you to be able to see this one.

[00:00:27]Uh it's decades in the making, literally. So, we hope you all enjoy the show. We're going to jump back in time almost two decades. Uh we're going to talk about a a story that's had a lot of work put into it, lots of thought, um lots of head scratching, and uh anyway, it's a I think this is a a really special episode because for me, as someone that's been keeping and and breeding reptiles for it's been a little over 25 years for me. A lot of people on today that have been doing it longer than that make me seem like I'm the young guy in the group. Um So, anyway, uh this is this is awesome because we're able to show, you know, what what people can do when they put their mind to it and they focus, and uh just uh a very cool uh expression of kind of the art that we do as as people that keep and breed reptiles. And then obviously, the reason why that I'm a part of it, RGI is a part of it is because the genetic testing has kind of helped to figure out exactly what's going on and and how things are working. And so, so anyway, this is going to be a fun one.

[00:01:29]Got lots of guests on today. I'll go ahead and and bring them on. So, we got Joe and Nate from JPC Boas. And we already talked earlier in the opening. I I may slip up and say JCP. Uh it sounds like other people do that, too, because of J.C. Penney. So, JPC Boas. Thank you.

[00:01:45]So, hey Joe and Nate. Hello, Ben. Thanks for having us. Yes. And then we got the Boa Guy himself, Jeff. Glad to have you here. Good to be here.

[00:01:54]And then uh we got also uh Shawn. Hello.

[00:02:00]So, what we're going to start off with today is kind of in the middle of the story.

[00:02:05]We're going to start talking about how Joe started having some some boas come out that didn't really make sense. So, do you remember, Joe, what the very first litter was where you're like, "Man, I really don't have any freaking idea." Yeah, it was back in 2008 where single albino was born in the litter out of first litter was 37. I did the same pairing again.

[00:02:29]Second litter was 32 with no albinos.

[00:02:31]So, right then and there I was like, "Okay, what's up with this?"

[00:02:35]My luck usually isn't that bad where the odds would be that much against me, but that's where it all started. Yes. So, we'll go to that one. We've got the uh mystery albino.

[00:02:47]So, that pairing, what was that pairing?

[00:02:51]What were you expecting from that litter? There were two I bought two normals for their stripes. One of them had a nice orange down the side of it.

[00:02:59]And back then I wanted to make a a snake with orange all the way down the side and a stripe all the way on top.

[00:03:05]So, I bought those two. Romeo and Juliet were their names when I bought them.

[00:03:10]And I paired them together, and first litter, this is what I got. You weren't expecting albino at all, right? No, they weren't neither one of them were supposedly het for albino. Following this line, obviously you had lots of other stuff going on, too, but following this line, it was 2009 when you paired them again? Yes, the second pair, yes. I believe it was 2009. So, here's that mystery albino. So, yeah, obviously make this albino, you want to make more, put the same pairing together.

[00:03:36]Right.

[00:03:38]And uh >> albinos came out.

[00:03:40]So, between those two litters, you had how many babies?

[00:03:44]69 that survived. There was, you know, a very few slugs as you can see in the litter. There was three there. And the first litter I think had two slugs, but um yeah. Look at that. That is a baby-making machine cage if I'm not correct if I'm not incorrect.

[00:04:00]Isn't that a Boa Guy Plastics cage? Did you make cages that uh connected together to make 8-ft cages? I did indeed. It looks like my hands, too, and my uh expanded >> Those are the ones that connect together to make 8-ft cages.

[00:04:15]Well, you're welcome.

[00:04:16]>> Still in use.

[00:04:17]All right.

[00:04:17]>> All these years later.

[00:04:19]>> [laughter] >> I've had I've had some Boa Guy racks.

[00:04:23]I One some of them were even um wood and had like wood burning in them. Those were pretty awesome. So, uh you also started seeing some other weird things you had no freaking idea NFI um snow here.

[00:04:37]And uh So, that's the snow motley there.

[00:04:41]This is the snow stuff here. So, this one has motley as well.

[00:04:45]Yep.

[00:04:46]>> Yes. Both of those are on the right snow motley, left snow NFI motley.

[00:04:50]All right.

[00:04:50]>> two here, you can tell the cal snow is in the middle. The white one up top. The white one where the NFI snows are the other two. Here versus these two. Yeah.

[00:05:02]We got another one here.

[00:05:04]Yeah.

[00:05:05]The big difference you can see is down near the tail on both of them. On the right, you get the NFI motley, which has a lot more grays and purples in it.

[00:05:12]>> Or the NFI snow, yeah, NFI snow. And then on the left, just the regular cal snow. And uh how many years was it before you uh figured out I guess this probably comes a little later in the story, but how many years was it until you figured out that uh I guess had the conversation where you wanted to figure out where these started from cuz I'm sure, like we said, we start in the middle of the story where you're getting these crazy animals. Can you you and Jeff tell the story of how you figured out that that original male was the original male?

[00:05:45]Basically, just by the breeding trials that, you know, he was definitely carrying something different. Uh everything I bred to produce the NFIs with that was an albino. So, I was breeding to all to albinos.

[00:06:00]And then I started hitting Jeff up with his thoughts on the whole issue and with pictures and trying to figure out what was going on. We just, you know, nothing ever really made sense on the pairings, on the results. And so, Jeff, if I remember the story right, you were on the phone one time with Joe and and had him go check a bin, right? Well, let's backtrack just a little bit. So, 2019, Joe's got these albinos on his table.

[00:06:24]He's calling them NFI albinos. And what's an NFI albino? And I'm looking at it thinking this is not a normal albino.

[00:06:31]Joe told me the story as best as he remembered it, and he explained it in a way that made perfect 100% sense to him, but I I was having a real hard time following it. Me and Chris Gilbert were the ones that were more experienced with breeding boas that recognized right away that yeah, this is something. And I remember talking to other people at that same show and even subsequent shows for years who just didn't believe it was anything other than a more colorful albino. And I knew it was it wasn't just a more colorful albino. Not based upon the results he was getting, there was no there were no intermediate forms between a cal albino and NFI. It was cal or NFI albino. I couldn't figure out how it worked, and I was trying to figure it out. Chris Gilbert was trying to figure it out, and it was for years. It just kind of my obsession. In the ball world, people are a lot of times people have the tendency if they don't have it if they don't already have it, they poopoo it. Instead of being encouraging of it, even if it's not their project, they want to poopoo it.

[00:07:38]And I don't my philosophy isn't that way at all. You know, I love to see new stuff, whether it's mine or not. This wasn't mine, still not mine, not my project. It's Joe's. So, I'm excited to see something new. So, I was I was very motivated and puzzled by what was going on. And Joe kept on sending me pictures when he'd have babies, you know, year after year, and I was still trying to figure it out, trying to figure it out.

[00:08:03]Ultimately, I figured it out, and I was wrong. But uh but we were it was still kind of a long path to getting to where we are going to see we are today. Um and I think it was 3 years ago I was on the phone with Joe, and it dawned on me talking about that original original animal which was produced was that 2008 or 2006? Yeah.

[00:08:25]2008.

[00:08:26]>> 2006.

[00:08:27]It It was 2008.

[00:08:29]>> 2008. Okay, so it was 2008. Okay.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:33]Okay, so I'm talking to Joe, and I I thought, "Do you still have the original one?"

[00:08:38]He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, go look at it right now." "What? What? Okay, I'll go look at it." So, Joe, you know, if you know Joe, he he's a fast talker.

[00:08:48]So, he's over that drawer. I'm on the phone. I can't see it. He pulls open the drawer. He said, "Okay, now what?" I said, "Is that an NFI?"

[00:08:55]And he looks at it, and then all at once I hear Joe rattling off a whole bunch of profanity followed by, "It's a blank blank blank NFI."

[00:09:07]>> [laughter] >> So, he had made an NFI, the very first one in that first litter in 2008 when there was one animal, not realizing it. Why would you think it was something other than just an albino?

[00:09:20]No reason. Um And that based on the numbers with this litter and a subsequent litter breeding the exact same pairing, my theory would be one of those two parents is het cal, and the other one wasn't, but created a spontaneous mutation where that was the very first NFI. Because if if they were both het for one or the other, we would have seen way more than one out of 60-some babies. There would have been 15.

[00:09:52]Now, it's possible it was pre-existing, but statistically, most likely that that was a spontaneous mutation. Would you agree with that, Ben?

[00:10:00]Yeah, yeah, that by far makes the most sense. That that original NFI albino male had a new mutation and and it seems to make the most sense that it would be in the same gene as call and that's how you could get that that look from just one breeding. So then, I knew how it worked and I wrote up a long thing, explained it, wrote it up for Joe. Joe posted it. And we had it all figured out and then last year Nate comes up to my table.

[00:10:31]Nate, Joe's Joe's minion gay there.

[00:10:35]>> [laughter] >> With with the crazy hair.

[00:10:39]Nate comes up to me and says, "I think it's like I think it's a a double simple recessive." And I thought, "Oh, well, yeah, you're just a kid. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm the boa file. I know what I'm talking about. You don't know what you're talking about."

[00:10:52]Uh it it never crossed my mind that that could be a paradigm type boa or a paradise type boa uh where they were allelic. I mean, I knew it was a possibility, but visually it just didn't make any sense to me.

[00:11:06]So I didn't entertain that at all. Not that I would have the answer, but at least I would have been open to the concept if I wouldn't have been so stubborn. So Nate got it right. And then in the ensuing years, in the last months, I assume Nate probably told Joe, "Hey, let's start sending sheds to Ben."

[00:11:28]And Joe said, "Okay, sure. Okay, fine.

[00:11:29]Go ahead." So so now I can explain where I came into this. Exactly. So basically I I see this one out of 69 and I'm a biology student and I'm a genetics student in school. And to me it just it didn't make sense. I I wasn't able to understand how you could only get the one albino out of the pairing. So in my eyes there had to be some new mutation.

[00:11:52]And the fact that we were making call albinos with the NFI told me it had to be allelic with call, right? But I was wrong in the way that I believed there were two mutations in this singular animal, in that original NFI. I was under the impression that we had NFI, which was the incomplete dominant mutation that you had uh you know, basically discovered in my eyes, you know, through through your breeding trials, that's what you believed the NFI was. And I believed that there was a second line of albino running through the project. And so this original animal I believed was actually het for new line, het for call and also had one copy of NFI. So in my eyes, what I started doing was I was like, "Let me" cuz I'm a I'm a student in school, I was like, "Let me start collecting sheds and I'm going to do the best I can to do the research myself." Knowing that I was probably going to be slow and probably, you know, might might look in the wrong places, not get the right answers I was looking for. So knowing that, I was like, "I'm going to also give sheds to Rare Genetics so that we can both start working on this because you know, I'm in a way I'm a scientist, but I'm also a boa guy. I I want the answers, but I don't need to be the one to find them. I just wanted Rare Genetics and someone to get the answers. So I send off these sheds and I hear nothing for 3 months. And I'm doing the research in my school lab.

[00:13:09]And out of nowhere, after Tim Lee this last March, Ben gives me a call and he's like, "Hey, so you know, we're looking at the animals you sent us and there's something new here."

[00:13:21]And it blew my mind that that this theory me and Joe had been talking since for the last probably year about the the possibility of there being a new line there. And and I was really expecting my research to give me the results that I was wrong. I'm going to be honest. And I didn't make that mark. My research isn't what gave me the answers, it was Rare Genetics' work. But the fact that it's true that there was a new line in there was just mind-blowing to me. But once I got that information, I still believed it was two separate mutations, NFI and a new line of albino. And that's when we started looking at the breeding trials from this season as well as the results of the DNA test. And at that point it really confirmed that it's indeed one trait.

[00:14:01]Yeah, so then, you know, that's where I came in.

[00:14:04]When I called Nate, what happened was I had samples that were labeled as being an NFI animal, you know, in some way or another they as you see on the bags here like, you know, I think this or that or might be this, you know. That's what's happening when you're when you're going through trying to figure out a new project. Uh but I did see a mutation that was only in NFI animals and it was in the same gene that we saw the call albino mutation.

[00:14:32]And so that's why I called Nate and and he gathered up some more sheds and sent them. And and so we I I wanted to present today um and like I said, I don't know if if when we're recording this the call albino test is not announced yet, but we do have that and it's validated and and good to go. But by the time this goes up, maybe it's already available, but um so the call albino results I've already shared.

[00:15:02]These are the 10 animals we're going to look at. Um and so the original, we'll call him the OG NFI sire.

[00:15:10]And then we've got an an NFI albino, also IMG, some super, possible supers.

[00:15:17]Another interesting animal that that Nate included was an het albino, so it's not visually albino, it's het albino. And they knew it did not make NFIs. And so that's how >> was produced by the original NFI male.

[00:15:35]Yes.

[00:15:37]And then you've got a OG NFI sire to a daughter. So it's his the the original male to one of his female offspring. So could be that like what Nate was thinking, maybe that homozygous for that other line of albino. Or anyway, just another another interesting pairing, another possible super. We threw one in here. I think this animal actually came from Jeff that was a a het for call. We just wanted to have one in there. We knew should just test het for call.

[00:16:07]And then there were two others that were siblings. One looked like an NFI albino and the other one did not. It was an albino, but it didn't look like an NFI albino.

[00:16:17]And so when we ran the call, what we saw in the sire was that he was just het for call. So he's visually albino, but he only has one copy of call.

[00:16:29]Um that NFI albino offspring also het for call. The two possible super NFIs, so they're visually, you know, they have an albino look to them, darker than a normal call albino. Uh but they're both completely negative for call.

[00:16:44]Um as you go down the list there, the the female that was het albino and did not produce NFIs that came from the original male is het for call.

[00:16:54]So all of these things are kind of lining up as you think about them and and uh everyone watching, you know, the us on this, we've thought about it a lot. If you're watching this for the first time, maybe you want to rewind and think it through. But uh it's pretty cool how this all falls into place.

[00:17:10]Um [snorts] as you go down the the het call albino from Jeff did did test het for call. And then the last two where the first one looked like an NFI albino and the second one didn't and they were siblings. That first one is het for call, the second one is homozygous for call.

[00:17:28]And so now when we add the NFI tests and the NFI results, you will see kind of what Jeff was hitting on earlier, it does indeed look like it's very convincing evidence that it is allelic. And the two mutations looking at the gene, they are in the same gene. They they are allelic and they are compatible and does a similar thing as what we see with the the paradise. So so yeah, the original male is het for call and het for NFI. The ones that were possible supers are homozygous for NFI.

[00:18:06]Um the two down at the bottom that were siblings, the one that looked like an NFI albino is het for NFI and het for call and then the the one that did not look like an NFI albino was homozygous for for call and negative for NFI. So it all lined up really nicely. And then as the cherry on top, I had asked Nate, a couple of the bags said they were poss het for anery. And so I only had room for a few, but I did run a few so that you guys know.

[00:18:36]So there might be one surprise one there. The the other two super NFI het anery.

[00:18:42]>> [laughter] >> Merry Christmas.

[00:18:44]Oh my god. That's a game changer. Wow.

[00:18:49]Yeah, so that one is het anery.

[00:18:52]Yeah.

[00:18:52]>> Wow, that is so cool. And then if you want to explain why why anery's popping up in in these NFIs? They um one of the original coral sunglows that we bred the um NFIs to turned out to be proved out to be anery. Found out out I don't know.

[00:19:12]Just a lucky pairing that we did. Uh bred two siblings together and out came snows, out came aneries.

[00:19:20]Wow. And because the NFI was bred into her, every any babies that came from that line subsequently possibly have the anery running through them.

[00:19:28]So you never know what you have running around through your animals. You know, I mean, everything's been so crossbred and you know, the way people sell stuff a lot of times, they just sell them to get rid of them not knowing exactly what's in them or not telling people what's in them.

[00:19:41]And then it just goes from there. Yep.

[00:19:43]You had call pop up in your collection without even knowing in that 2008 litter. Apparently now we know one of those two parents was het for call and then had the annery pop up and you've How how I guess that's the other thing I probably should have said at the beginning. How many years have both Joe and Jeff how many years have you all been been breeding? 41 years in a row.

[00:20:04]That's awesome. And you said 30 Joe?

[00:20:07]Yeah. So you every 30 years you do have a few things pop up.

[00:20:11]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:13]My biggest thing was the paradox is what I was looking for and then this here popped out and changed directions a little bit. Yeah. Cool. Well, so and we talked a little bit about this before recording but now that that you have this information that seems very clear that these two mutations are indeed allelic and compatible in a similar way to the to the paradise and paradigm and all of that.

[00:20:40]How how is it that you guys think is going to be the best way to to name and refer to these so like for the original NFI sire obviously makes sense call him an NFI albino and people understand that means he's het for call and het for NFI. And what do you want to do with the like the super NFIs there what what you would have called a super NFI previously what are you going to refer to those now?

[00:21:06]Those are going to be JPC albinos. JPC.

[00:21:09]Right on.

[00:21:11]That makes good sense. So we've got a here we got a picture showing difference so we've got JPC versus and this one is an NFI right? Yep. And then we've got This is also an interesting thing we were talking prior to recording a little bit as well that's similar you said to like leopards and something else where it's kind of a a controversial whether you call them recessive or incomplete dominant that that it looks like here you've got something similar.

[00:21:40]Yes, color patterns the uh the het JPCs are a lot lighter. And then this one's a call het. Correct. Really?

[00:21:48]That's what we're assuming though. We haven't done the shed testing on it so we don't know.

[00:21:51]>> the opposite of what I would have expected. Interesting. So we got to have to do more shed testing but the way they've been proven out lately is that the lighter ones are proven out.

[00:22:02]Yeah. But And and so this is that's this is we're going to get to this pairing in a sec cuz we had a very important pairing this season that pretty much proved all of this outside of the genetic testing. And it was by breeding a non-albino NFI maker to another non-albino NFI maker and both of those were proved to make NFIs via breeding them to unrelated albinos.

[00:22:26]And so then when you think about it right if if it was a separate incomplete dominant trait you would get a 1 to 1 to 1 to 1 ratio or no you would get a um you would get 25% are going to be albino only and then but you're going to notice supers in the non-albinos and in the albinos and that's not the results that we got. So you can show the litters now the litter now.

[00:22:49]The results from pairing this fell perfectly in line with them being allelic because now if you think of these animals as we're talking not non-albino NFI makers they've got to be het for JPC albino. So then if you're breeding two het JPC albinos together all of the albinos have got to be super NFI albinos and then out of the normals there's not going to be any supers there because the super is the albino form and that's exactly what we saw. You know only four albinos or three albinos and they were all super. The JPC albinos.

[00:23:19]JPC albinos yeah.

[00:23:21]JPC albinos now. So that's interesting because with with call albinos it used to be people would just keep the prettiest ones when they made possible hets and often times they were right they picked out the right ones so the lighter offspring when you're producing het albinos or poss het albinos within a litter the lighter offspring are more likely to be het call. 20 years ago I wrote about the call albino possible hets having a brighter eye which kind of goes along with overall being lighter but what I would have thought what I would have expected because the JPC albinos >> [laughter] >> are so dark I would have anticipated the hets also being a little bit dark.

[00:24:09]But since it's an a true albino and allelic with call it makes sense that it could result in the the hets giving you kind of a a little bit of a glimpse into what's going on there just like call hets that it might be a little bit lighter which in a way kind of would that make sense but in for me it's pretty depressing because the only possible het NFI I have is very very dark.

[00:24:38]Don't worry I got a lot more Jeff.

[00:24:40]What?

[00:24:41]I've got a lot more.

[00:24:43]I'm sure you do.

[00:24:45]So anyways this is fascinating stuff.

[00:24:48]I'll send this het out and have it tested and see what it comes back as.

[00:24:51]>> Yeah.

[00:24:54]There's a perfect example right there the three different mutations.

[00:24:58]You got the call got the NFI and then you got the JPC all in one tub.

[00:25:02]Yep. So you got kind of going from lightest to darkest this is the call.

[00:25:08]Yeah. Wow. So the JPCs So the JPCs as little neonates are quite dark especially compared to albinos but they lighten with time as they get bigger?

[00:25:21]They it just the colors change they turn more just brown. You can see them there yeah the the darker ones there's more complex colors as babies but as adults they pretty much they're just like brown. They look like like a T positive in a way it's just very brown and There should be some pictures of supers that we sent to you.

[00:25:38]There was one.

[00:25:39]>> That's one right there. Back up. That's a het right there so you can see how light it is. That's a het JPC. True proven male. And then the picture before that one. There you go that's that's a super or JPC albino. Awesome. Very interesting. That's such a such a dark it's almost like a a brownish like you said.

[00:25:57]And there's so many combos left out there to be made with the pure line now that I know.

[00:26:02]Like the IMG you've seen the IMG combos what's the IMG in the pure JPC going to look like? Yeah. That'll be interesting.

[00:26:09]I'm going to take the slides back to show some of the projects you guys have worked. So we did show the snow. Um so this mildly yeah. When the snow when the snow popped up that was a complete surprise then? Yes because we didn't know that the female was het for snow.

[00:26:26]So that's fun stuff.

[00:26:27]So we showed these earlier but pretty pictures.

[00:26:32]And once again darker here than this one.

[00:26:36]So some other projects you got with the leopard this this was pretty pretty surprising to me that's pretty powerful difference.

[00:26:45]That's the combo of the NFI leopard that's not pure JPC. Yeah.

[00:26:50]And then that's the call leopard right next to him.

[00:26:53]So this one is a leopard that has two copies of call so it's a call leopard.

[00:26:58]Yeah. This one has one copy of NFI I I guess one copy of JPC one copy of call which is why they would call this an NFI leopard right?

[00:27:10]Correct.

[00:27:11]>> Correct. Okay so we're going to call the mutation JCP or JPC. JPC. JPC I'm sorry man. I I promised I wouldn't do that and I did. Uh But then NFI is just going to be sort of the industry name.

[00:27:24]>> Yeah so NFI has that it's allelic but what what I'm what I'm saying is is so that's a it's het JPC het call right? [clears throat] Yes.

[00:27:34]When an animal's het for one and het for the other it's an NFI Yes. animal that we're going to call it? Okay. Yep.

[00:27:42]So that that precedent's been set with with sharp and the paradigm and the paradise so sharp and prodigy makes the paradi or the So you guys say it I'm going to say it wrong. Sharp Sharp and prodigy make paradise.

[00:28:01]Sharp and doll woman caramel make paradigm. There you go. Thank you. Okay.

[00:28:06]>> [clears throat] >> So that's that's something that as boa breeders they're used to and then with ball pythons it's kind of similar with like candy and an albino and then they call it a candino. So they have a different name for the one that's het for both For guys like me that's a total twist. I I had no idea. That that's exactly why I stopped where I did. That makes sense now.

[00:28:27]5 minutes ago I was like what?

[00:28:29]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. And so now that we've talked about that so this is one copy of call or two copies of call and a leopard one copy of call one copy of JPC and a leopard. And so what Joe was just saying a minute ago you're going to expect when this has two copies of JPC to be even darker right?

[00:28:50]More likely but until you do it you never know.

[00:28:53]You know you could you can think of one thing going to happen and completely opposite happens. That's that's the whole joy of breeding is always.

[00:29:00]Can I see a pic of a homozygous JCP?

[00:29:03]Do we have it just so it's So this is it as a baby. Okay.

[00:29:08]So that's homozygous for the allelic form but it is not a visual albino.

[00:29:13]It is a visual albino. It's a T positive so it's going to be similar to like a VPI or the paradigm. Okay. Got it.

[00:29:22]>> And then as a adult so here it is as a baby and then as an adult this is what it looks like.

[00:29:32]Okay. That that looks more like what I would expect. Okay.

[00:29:36]Okay. Cool.

[00:29:37]That helps a ton.

[00:29:39]Exactly why I'm here guys is just there are lots going to be lots of people out there like me that are going to want to learn this because it's a little bit it's the same genetically but a little bit different from a lot of what they do in other species, right? So, Yeah.

[00:29:55]>> we want to make sure we're pretty clear what we're talking about here. So, >> is two copies of call. Yeah.

[00:30:01]This is NFI.

[00:30:04]And this is JPC. Okay.

[00:30:05]>> And the NFI is and JPC, one of each. Yeah.

[00:30:09]>> Yes.

[00:30:10]Got it. Okay.

[00:30:12]So, you can see that light, a little darker, even darker. Yep. Yeah, very good point. Now, IMG. So, once again, this is like the leopard. This has one copy of JPC, one copy of call, and that makes it the NFI IMG, right?

[00:30:28]Okay. That's cool.

[00:30:30]One copy of NFI or JPC, one copy of call, and then a copy of IMG.

[00:30:37]Yes.

[00:30:37]>> Mhm. And then here's similar comparison right next to each other.

[00:30:42]So, having the NFI or one copy of JPC, one copy of call versus two copies of call, and then both of them having IMG. That's just cool. Yeah.

[00:30:53]>> Yeah.

[00:30:53]I mean, that's that's the way if you look at it as NFI is a T-positive line, it makes sense that having that in there instead of the call, now the IMG is going to be able to do more work with it. You know, you look at a VPI IMG or a paradigm IMG, you know, those can turn turn black. So, that's why you have the T-positive in there, it does a little bit more. So, we're using we're using one term incorrectly, so and that is T-positive.

[00:31:17]We don't [clears throat] know if call or VPI or sharp or prodigy or any of those are tyrosinase positive or not.

[00:31:29]But, the general consensus or a thought has been that the sharp albinos and the call albinos are tyrosinase negative, which is not factual. That's an assumption.

[00:31:45]And that prodigy and VPI are T-positive, which again is an assumption, but not known cuz no one has done the test on it. So, one of one of my personal I brought that up to Ben the other day.

[00:32:02]I asked him, you know, is there any way that we can test them for tyrosinase?

[00:32:06]And he said because it's a protein test and not DNA, that's not something they would be able to do there. I'm trying to find out if there's anyone at my school who would be able to help out with it cuz I'd like to get some answers on that, but yeah. There should be someone in academics somewhere that does or can set up that test, but if if they don't already have it running we'll make them come forward.

[00:32:25]Yeah, yeah, anyone listening to this. If they don't have it already set up and running, then it would cost some money to, you know, order everything in and get it going again. If someone happens to be doing tyrosinase studies, it wouldn't matter what species it is. You could just give them some kind of tissue sample or blood sample or whatever. So, It's It's one of the one of my pet peeves in the reptile world is we use scientific terms without really knowing what we're talking about. And one another one is codominant. That's not a scientific term, it's incomplete dominant. But, codominant is ingrained and you can't get people to think about anything differently. And exactly the same with T-positive and T-negative. We're not going to change that here in this video, but it it it's still annoys me cuz I would prefer that we speak about it more accurately. I think it helps with people getting a better understanding of all of this stuff if we were all on the same page and using accurate terminology.

[00:33:26]Anyways, I will say this, Jeff, as the guy who handles most of our customer service emails and we get dozens if not, you know, 100 or more every day.

[00:33:35]It is getting through to the hobby because particularly now that you can genetically test a lot of this stuff, I answered an email before I got on this uh this show that you know, someone was was questioning a het result on a butter ball python and how could that be possible? So, people are actually this is forcing people to get educated and use the proper terminology. I don't use I don't hear the word um codom very often anymore.

[00:34:00]You know, and it used to be 15 years ago everybody used it. So, it is it is getting better, thankfully. So, thanks to people like you and, you know, Ben who I know has been beating people over the head with a hammer for all 25 plus years that I've known him. That's wrong terminology. Don't use that. It is does seem to be sinking in. It the the problem's getting less and less from at least from my standpoint as a customer service thing. I used to deal with it every single day, now not so much. I think people are finally starting to wrap their heads around it and label things correctly and talk about them correctly so that they're educating the new people correctly. There was so much misinformation out there for so long, it took a really long time to turn that corner. Sorry. Your old school Your old school guys are the ones that are most likely to use the wrong terminology, which is not right cuz they should be more knowledgeable than the newer people.

[00:34:50]But, anyways, yeah, so it's like turning a ship in the ocean. It takes a while.

[00:34:54]It's very slow. It's a really good analogy, actually.

[00:34:58]So, as we've um you know, gone through this history, I'll flip back to the beginning here. Um so, for people obviously you've been producing these for many years now. For people that that already have some NFI animals or or were thinking about buying them or whatever, what what's some of your thoughts and and message to them now that now that we've kind of come full circle and and understand what's going on, what's what's some of the information you'd like to give them?

[00:35:26]Well, now we got a final answer on it, which, you know, we've beaten our brains out, we can actually, you know, go forward from here knowing what to pair them with and what to make with them and, you know, create whatever we can.

[00:35:38]Yeah, it's awesome. Like I said in, you know, the beginning in the opener, maybe we won't even use, but the, you know, it's kind of like an art that we're doing working with these animals and and being able to have new new paints, new colors of paint, or new textures that we can use or whatever. This it you know, provided us that. Like like Jeff was saying earlier, it was likely a a random mutation that happened back in 2008 that made that that OG male that gave us another color or texture or however you want to think about it that we can use to to do more living art. But, the DNA testing really, you know, that put the real answers into the project. You know, without the DNA testing, we'd still be guessing to an extent without knowing for sure. There'd always be questions upon it. But, now with the DNA testing, it it's a no-brainer. The answer is right there. Yeah.

[00:36:32]>> From my From my perspective, it's not my project, but this is massive. This is huge. It's NFI has been thought to be a call tweaker, and it's not. It's its own project. It's opens up a whole field of what you can make with NF NFI in exactly the same way that VPI is its own deal, call is its own deal, sharp is its own deal, so is NFI. It is not just a call tweaker. It's its own new world, and this proves it, which is I think very exciting for Joe. Very exciting for the boa world. Uh the more we have of of cool projects, the better for everybody.

[00:37:14]Yes. But, the fact that it's allelic with call, it just makes it so anyone who's got these projects they're already working on with call, it's you can plug it right in. It's so it's nice in that way. Now we freaking know.

[00:37:26]I do want to say one thing and and much respect to uh to Jeff and to Joe because uh I know they've been in the game for a really long time, but you know, it took a 20-year-old biology student to go, "This doesn't make sense." and to chase it for this to get figured out. This would have just I just Sorry to interrupt, but to think Nate knew nothing about boas two years ago. Yeah.

[00:37:51]I just I just want to say I think that's pretty cool and it's cool that younger people coming in and recognizing the new technology that's coming available are questioning things, and this is one of those questions that turned out to be a really cool answer. And it's, you know, it's new blood coming into the hobby, which is exactly what we we all talk about as the older guys with the gray beards, right? So, um props to you, buddy. This is a It's a big deal. It really is. Absolutely.

[00:38:18]>> fun. I owe it all to Joe. I mean, like you said, I didn't know anything two years ago. I was I was a nobody. Knew nothing. I couldn't tell you the difference between a call or a sharp or any of that. And now to be part of this, it feels massive.

[00:38:31]Yep, and from our side we and we say it in our show all the time, we we literally cannot do this without you all, without people sending sheds in.

[00:38:40]We we can't design anything till we have something to look at and figure out how it's working, you know, so So, yeah, it's awesome. And uh just to say thanks once again to all of you for for being here for this show. Like the the amount of I as I was going through these pictures and thinking about the story these last few days as we knew we were going to do this, you know, just to think about all of the hours and hours that have been put into this, you know, thoughts and excitement and and head scratching and all that stuff. It's very very cool to be able to be a part of this as well. It's awesome story.

[00:39:19]I I do want to say one thing also just because this is a question I deal with every day. Um and and Nate's story here is a really good example. Um this is a new mutation, right? It it and a lot of people in the industry would call it a a dinker project, right? That they're trying to figure out what it is. Clearly it's something different. Um boas made it easier for to figure this out because there are so many babies in a given litter, right? We Our normal process is to ask people to send us as many unrelated sheds as possible of what they think that new dinker project is to help us find it, right?

[00:39:56]In boas, this project has been going on since 2008. You've got to have hundreds of offspring by now, if not, you know, close to a thousand, maybe. I don't know. As long as this project's been going on, and there are so many sheds already out there. It just took somebody collecting them, adding the the data, what they think might be going on, and sending them in, and we found it.

[00:40:18]Right? So, this is, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, then the first dinker project that we've had enough sheds sent in, and we took the time to look, and sure enough, it's its own thing.

[00:40:30]Now, and and we've had dozens of these inquiries over the years, but no one can ever get us enough sheds where we can really find it. This is really the first time that's ever happened. So, uh again, props. This is This is a first for us.

[00:40:43]This isn't us looking for a known mutation, really. This is us looking for something that might be something different, but it's technically kind of a Like, what'd you call it, Jeff? A a call highlighter or call something?

[00:40:57]Tweaker. A call tweaker, right? So, it's kind of a dinker project until we can prove it differently, but because you had so many sheds sent in with so much data, and we had already found call, which was it was related to, it was right there.

[00:41:10]It It It popped right out. So, this is, I think, the first time that's ever happened. I I want to point that out cuz I tell that story to everybody, "Hey, that's a really neat-looking project.

[00:41:19]You need to send me as many unrelated sheds as you can." And they all get really discouraged, and no one ever does.

[00:41:25]But, it does pay off, and I think this is the first time I've seen that happen using testing to prove out a dinker project. So, again, well done.

[00:41:36]Awesome. Well, uh Joe and Nate, why don't we start with you? Uh let us know where where people out there excited may I would imagine there's many people this will be the first time they've seen NFI albino and JPC albino. Um where would be the best place for them to see your what you're producing and and to be able to see what you have available and things like that?

[00:41:59]Uh basic outlets, Morph Market, jpcboas.com.

[00:42:05]Uh we do a lot of local shows. We're always at Tinley.

[00:42:08]So, people on the other side of the country can come out and see us.

[00:42:12]If you want to just see some projects we're working on and some of the latest productions though, Instagram and Facebook, we post all the latest litters and stuff like that. So, that's a great place to just check stuff out.

[00:42:22]Perfect. So, you're going to go back out onto Morph Market and relabel a bunch of stuff now that we have a couple of new names?

[00:42:28]Oh, yeah. So, we didn't really have that much up on there to begin with, and then once this started taking off, we specifically were holding off um posting a lot of stuff cuz we didn't want to sell snakes knowing something might be different with them. But, now that we know what's going on, uh we're going to relabel a lot of them and put them up, and hopefully get in contact with Morph Market because even the NFI, you know, it's gotten so far down this path that even on Morph Market, NFI is labeled as incomplete dominant, where they say you can have one copy, and then there's a super NFI. So, now we kind of need to go back and rework that, too.

[00:43:01]Yeah. Well, once this video's up, you'll have this. You can send in the link. So, for Jeff, uh a lot of people know you, the Boa File, and probably have cages from you and seen YouTube videos, all that stuff.

[00:43:13]But, for the people that haven't haven't uh you know, come across your work, where would be the best place for people to to see the animals you're producing and and maybe to see you at a show?

[00:43:25]I do Tinley every year, twice the two Tinley shows.

[00:43:29]Those are the only two shows that I do.

[00:43:32]Um my animals are listed that I've got for sale are on Morph Market. I I have lots of animals that aren't on Morph Market, so I get people that call me and say, "Well, what about this? Do you have this? Do you have this?"

[00:43:42]Um I don't do 800 shows a year like Joe does.

[00:43:47]I hate doing shows.

[00:43:49]But, uh so I have the Morph Market. I also have a YouTube channel, which I have not posted very much on at [clears throat] uh youtube.com/theboaphile, no spaces.

[00:43:59]Um and I'm not officially ready to make an announcement, but I'm going to be expanding that a little bit with um more detailed information about boas and breeding and all the specifics, you know, having figured out most of this stuff.

[00:44:15]Anyways, um I'm just going to give a little bit better history history of some of all the mutations that are out there uh just cuz I lived it, and I remember this stuff. I have an memory like an elephant, so I just remember all this stuff, and there's so much misinformation, so people can look forward to having one place that they can go to and and read something that's factual based on experience and not based on 6 months of reading the internet, you know, without being able to filter through the garbage. Yeah. Uh which there's a lot of garbage. And also, I want to mention when Joe announces this deal, I'll also help promote it, which I did before, and I'll I'll I'll do it again on on all my social media. I wanted to do a video on uh on YouTube about it. I might do that again, too, and I know the history more accurately from Nate. Well, I I was kind of relieved to find out that uh Nate was wrong, too, and it wasn't just me. So, both of us were wrong.

[00:45:16]>> [laughter] >> No, we all had it wrong.

[00:45:19]I don't like to be wrong, but I admit >> I don't either, but >> [laughter] >> I admit it when I am, and I am wrong sometimes. I definitely make mistakes, but yes, I appreciate this opportunity to be able to participate and tell the tale.

[00:45:33]Yes.

[00:45:34]And I've had some good long conversations uh with you, Jeff, on the phone. I appreciate that, and you If you do catch him at Tinley's, doesn't go to a lot of shows, you catch him at Tinley, you have any questions, it's it's awesome. Like, I'd have, you know, some like random, you know, scorier this or that boa mutation pop in my mind to ask Jeff questions about, and he knew like the history, who who had it first, this, that, and the other. Like, that that knowledge is is awesome, and I love hearing those stories. So, so yeah, if you haven't checked out his YouTube videos, uh they're they're worth checking out. A lot of really, really good information. Obviously, lots of experience. And so, and then um Joe, you did mention you go to a lot of shows local to you. Was that Connecticut?

[00:46:15]Where What What's kind of the area?

[00:46:17]White Plains, New York, uh New Hampshire, Manchester, New Hampshire shows, Albany shows coming up May 17th.

[00:46:24]Um those are the local ones that we usually do. We pick up a few here and there in Pennsylvania.

[00:46:31]Do you ever get down to the Repticon shows further south?

[00:46:35]No. Okay.

[00:46:37]I'm I'm just going on here to see you in May. Those are long trips.

[00:46:41]Yeah, that's a long way to drive. I'm I've got it I know cuz I've got to drive it from Texas in a few weeks. I just thought maybe I'd say hey if you guys would be there.

[00:46:49]>> [clears throat] >> Excellent. Well, yeah, you get a chance to to go to one of the shows. It sounds like Tinley, you can you can meet all all of all of us will be at the October Tinley at least. Shawn and I >> Tinley is the place to be.

[00:47:02]Yeah, that's that's a good one to be at.

[00:47:04]We haven't been to the March one. We'll have to do that. And I guess they're going to have one in Is it June this year?

[00:47:09]Yeah, I wanted to go myself, but I I just can't. June's too busy for me. My son's graduating from boot camp, and I have another thing that I'm attending also in June. So, that would be like Yeah, the June show we won't be attending either. We got Manchester, New Hampshire that same day, and you know, it for us, it's, you know, anywhere's 13 to 14-hour drive. It's 4 to 5 days away from here. You know, it's not just the snakes. I've also got rodents I got to take care of, so you know, it's a lot to make these shows. Takes a lot out of us. Oh, yeah. There's stuff there on the animals, either, you know.

[00:47:41]So, October or March Tinley, that's the one to get to.

[00:47:45]See these these animals in person and these these uh awesome people that work with them.

[00:47:51]Very cool. By October, we're going to have a lot more coming out, so.

[00:47:56]Excellent.

[00:47:58]Well, I look forward to that, and uh I think with that, we'll we'll make it a wrap. So, yeah, anyway, thanks again. Um as we always say, please do comment, like, subscribe, comment, all of those good things that help the uh the the algorithm know that we're uh we're important and doing cool things, and the people that are on here are doing cool things, so we appreciate that, and that will help >> and subscribe, right? We're almost to 10,000. That's a been a mark for us for a while, and we're almost there. So, All right. Yeah. Yes, thanks again.

[00:48:36]>> [music]