The Battle of Guadalcanal - Episode 4: Halsey Takes Command

Added: 2026-04-30

[00:00:15]Catf Welcome to World War II Live. I'm John Cy McManus alongside my buddy Kevin Heel. Kevin, how are you my good friend?

[00:00:25]>> John, I'm doing great tonight. I am the Enson Pulver to your Mr. Roberts.

[00:00:33]>> Enen Pulver to my Mr. Roberts.

[00:00:37]Okay.

[00:00:37]>> Oh, good. You got it.

[00:00:38]>> Mr. I do, but I would maybe ought to explain it too because I think >> it's um very good movie uh Mr. Roberts about a uh a naval commander. He's not the captain of the ship on a I guess it's a supply ship and he's a very good officer, but he desperately wants to be on an aircraft carrier. And one of the characters, um, Enen Pulver, uh, who plays Jack Lemon plays Enen Pulver, very young Jack Lemon, and he's always getting into some kind of crazy trouble deliberately, you know, wants to build his own firecracker and sets it off in the laundry machines. Um, but he's the comic relief through the entire movie.

[00:01:21]And it's a it's it's lighthearted, it's serious, and you know, I don't want to give anything away, but just one of those classic World War II movies from the 1950s or60s.

[00:01:33]>> All in good World War II fun. And uh, of course, obviously that's our focus, but uh, we thought we would continue with our Guadal Canal discussion tonight. And so what we plan to cover is we're going to talk a little bit about uh Vice Admiral Gormley, Robert Gormley, who I think sometimes is overlooked in the whole Guadal Canal discussion and then take it beyond that to look at the latter stages of the battle. And of course, alongside spinning the dials as always, uh to help us with that, our sagacious chief of staff, Mark Vestoso.

[00:02:00]Mark, we understand we've got some some pretty cool Stump the Chump questions for this one, right?

[00:02:05]>> Uh yeah, we do. I think we're going to keep it uh focused on the Pacific tonight.

[00:02:10]>> I mean, Yo. Okay.

[00:02:11]>> Yeah. But I I have a I have an odd uh Pacific Normandy link kind of thing. So, we're kind of looking forward to that. I think it'll be pretty cool.

[00:02:22]>> Hey, talking about movies, last night uh was the 50th anniversary of the release of the movie Tommy, right? Which was the Who's Rock Opera?

[00:02:33]And in the 70s they made this totally weird almost just I super weird movie about Tommy. Um but in the beginning right they if you remember Tommy's dad is killed in World War II or they think he's killed in World War II. And so the the first I don't know say fifth of the movie there's like Lancaster bombers all over like that thing and it just was really interesting to remember like all these rockers that we grew up with they were all born like right at the end of the war right and the war really kind of affected them and the music that they made.

[00:03:12]>> Well you know Pink Floyd >> question >> I'm sorry John go ahead. Yeah. I mean, Roger, you were going to say, Kevin, Roger Waters from Pink Floyd, his father was killed in the Anzio campaign, right?

[00:03:22]>> Yep. Yep. And that's the I don't know that's the opening, but in the movie The Wall, they actually have an extra song called When the Tigers Broke Free about his father being killed at the Anzio beach head. I'm just going to do a quick caveat. I did I wrote a piece on a soldier who fought in Anzio and handed it to one of my co-workers who was quite a bit younger than me and she said I thought we were only supposed to cover important things and I said well yeah the guy was at Anzio and she said well what's Anzio and I'm like you know Monica Anzio >> no didn't know any never heard of any of it >> so >> had to use the word Rome a lot >> yeah it's near Rome so maybe that that rings the bell but that's you know we as we've discussed. Um, that's why we're here to help people learn.

[00:04:09]>> Exactly. And to learn ourselves, especially younger.

[00:04:12]>> Yeah. I mean, everybody's welcome and younger folks and that's that's how we we we get into World War II and there's so many different elements of it as Mark has pointed out. I mean, even a movie like Tommy, which we associate with this this sort of interesting kind of wildly creative phase of the Who, it has a kind of World War II angle. The Beatles have a World War II angle in that they're basically infants of the war. Mhm.

[00:04:33]>> John Lennon talked about how he grew sick of sick of hearing it, you know, I mean, like because the adults were constantly like, you know, back in the war we had this privation and that private, you don't know how lucky you are and all and and you know how young people are, they don't want to hear that.

[00:04:47]>> And I I Yeah, I recently heard that like part of an interview with John Lennon about that uh in World War II and he just like didn't want to hear anything more about it and >> um you know so but very different than us obviously we want to hear everything more than enough.

[00:05:01]>> Yeah. exactly.

[00:05:05]>> Yeah.

[00:05:05]>> I think there was a a quick scene in Hard Day's Night >> where the the Beatles are on a train >> and it's the four of them and like some guy with a bowler who's like just kind of horrified to be around.

[00:05:19]>> Yeah. And Lennon, I think says to him or he says like, "We fought the war for you." And then Lennon's like, "Yeah, I bet you regret that now." Something like that, you know. And I want to say that gentleman was either a friend of theirs or like the one of the managers or the he was he had a personal connection to the Beatles and they brought him into the movie. But yeah, that was that was an essence that existed after World War II in both Europe and the United States.

[00:05:45]And that's why people love the Beatles so much is they were like, "Okay, we're going to forget about that and talk about sing about love and joy." And it was such I don't know if people can appreciate that today. What a what a culture change they brought. You know, it's no longer the the reverence and the somnity of reflecting on World War II.

[00:06:04]It's we're a young generation. We want to do our own thing. And they brought a lot of joy to a whole generation.

[00:06:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Complete cultural change.

[00:06:13]And of course, so so uh Vice Adel Gormley, if we sort of circle back to conceived of any, >> he couldn't have conceived of the Beatles or any of this kind of stuff during his heyday, right? Yeah, this is a guy who's United States Naval Academy, class of 1906. He's a surface guy. Uh he's been a skipper of a battleship in the 1930s. He's had a very good very solid career track with some good connections with his various classmates uh in in the Navy. Uh so he's kind of a comer, you know, on the on the eve of World War II. and he's certainly come under the the attention of uh Admiral King, Ernie King, who obviously is the major power broker for the Navy um you know during during the war. Uh it's always been my impression, Kevin, that that I won't say King kind of forced him on Nimmits um as as a as like the South Pacific commander, right?

[00:07:05]>> But I don't know that that normally was Nimttz's first choice. So, so what happens here is that in uh I think it's July of 42, uh Marshall and King, George Marshall, chief of staff of the Army, and Ernie King basically come to this compromise because they can't the Army and the Navy can't agree on who's going to have overall command of the Pacific, you know. So, they basically split it up with MacArthur, Southwest Pacific area, and then Nimttz like everything else.

[00:07:29]And Nimttz will handle the North and Central Pacific, but then Gormley is tapped for the South Pacific, which of course brings him into the Guadal Canal orbit. Uh I don't think he really wanted Gormley as the first choice though he did think highly of him.

[00:07:42]>> Right. And I like the way you said he was brought into the Guadana orbit. Uh because that is kind of how it occurs.

[00:07:48]Like whereas in North Africa on the other side of the world there's a lot of planning and figuring out and those people that made the plans then go to execute it. Whereas Gormley is I guess geographically convenient. He's in that South Pacific area. and they don't really send him out and they say, "Oh, there's a marine force coming your way and we've decided to send them to Guad Canal. You're now in charge of it, you know, make sure it works." And so I always got the feeling that he was caught off guard by this and he was still in sort of the the sort of gossamer strategy think like where do we go next? How do we plan this out? And hey, there's this reality coming at you and you have like I I just and I don't know that anybody in his position could have been ready for it either. So, I don't really want to slight him in that way, but yeah, I feel like it was it was it was forced upon him. He wasn't Nimtt's first choice. And, you know, I think because of the way he's brought in, I think that adds to his caution.

[00:08:49]What do you think, John?

[00:08:50]>> Oh, no doubt. Yeah. I I don't think that he had his heart in this operation. And he wasn't at heart like a like a dicethrower, like a gambler, a risktaker, an aggressive guy. He was uh as was the case I think for for some officers of his generation.

[00:09:05]>> Uh he tended to be kind of conservative with with ships and with his outlook and in terms of strategic thinking.

[00:09:11]>> Um Gormley was not that kind of adapt with an aggressive guy you might want for that moment in time. So yeah, he was a little caught off guard maybe and it's a shoestring operation of course >> and it's that's remember you know Guad Canal is happening two months after after Midway um you know and and we don't have a lot of fleet carriers at this stage and we don't of course have a lot of uh amphibious capable divisions available to I mean it's it's all got to be done on the fly and I don't know that he's one of those improviser kind of guys. He's also, you know, you and I talk a lot about, we tend to focus on the the lead from the front guys who we cover so well. You famously, of course, with Patton, me with with uh Eichelberger, uh Gavin, Rididgeway, guys like that who just we're just used to them constantly being right there in front.

[00:10:00]>> Trust.

[00:10:02]>> Truscot. Yeah. I mean, Gormley is cut from a different cloth uh in that he never sets foot on Guavo Canal and that certainly does not serve him well. His headquarters is I think what at Numea and then then like aboard ship but you know so he's he's never actually physically there yet he's having to manage the battle and I think one of the big consequence of that is this this roaring argument between Admirals Fletcher and Turner Turner Richmond Kelly Turner is the kind of guy who will get in an argument with anybody you know I mean even his greatest ally in life whoever it would be he's going to argue with a guy that Turner was argumentative he was crusty he was abrasive uh but he also effective. I I think he had maybe a little bit of a drinking problem, too, which added to his belligerance at times, but I think he was an incredibly competent guy. Um, and then he's arguing with Fletcher, who, you know, I mean, he's the steward of our remaining carriers.

[00:10:56]>> Yeah.

[00:10:56]>> So, to him, you know, Fletcher is is just worried, you know, I can't get caught flatfooted and lose these carriers here and then we'll have nothing in the Pacific. So, uh, Turner is angry about them leaving because then that's not going to cover his surface assets. and then you're not going to be able to supply the marines adequately.

[00:11:13]So, copy this the earliest stage of the battle. My point is um Gormley is the overall commander who ought to be kind of mediating and adjudicating that and saying boys play nice with each other.

[00:11:24]Here's how we're going to do this. And yet, unfortunately, he's a distant figure. And so, it exacerbates that tension and I think it leads to a little bit more uh cross purposes and inefficiency in the early stages for the Americans on the naval side of the house.

[00:11:37]>> Yep. And John, do we know where Gormley was on December 7th, 1941?

[00:11:44]>> I was afraid you'd ask that.

[00:11:46]>> Yeah, I don't think I can't account for his whereabouts.

[00:11:48]>> I don't know. I don't know that he's in Hawaii. And I'm I'm going to say that that pays a big dividend to his successor, but I want to I don't want to get into that yet. Um, but I do think so things are deteriorating on Guad Canal.

[00:12:03]The the Navy has taken losses. The First Marine Division is getting worn down.

[00:12:06]They've had victories and victories in the air, but it almost starts to look like an impossible situation. And you know, we both know from reading Richard Frank's book that that feeling is is metriculating back to the United States.

[00:12:21]And all things considered, I think I I think Nimmits act decisively. What do you think? Yeah, cuz I I always think about Eisenhower kind of hem and horn on friendall as core commander in North Africa and and searching you know going to three people to you know to take over his command and a lot of back and forth in mail. I feel compared to that Nimttz acted decisively.

[00:12:43]>> Oh yeah. And and yet not impulsively.

[00:12:45]There is an impulsive bone in Nimttz's body. Nitz is the kind of person who thinks through every angle before he does anything before he even speaks.

[00:12:52]>> Um he's the classic sort of think before you speak and act kind of person. And uh >> I never I never would have gotten along with him. Go on.

[00:13:00]>> No, he's the exact opposite of you. I mean, you know, you it's just like talk first, think later, right? As we've seen so many times on this podcast.

[00:13:07]>> What could possibly go wrong? Follow me.

[00:13:09]>> What could go what could go wrong with that approach in life, right?

[00:13:14]>> I'll go out all the ice off everyone's car.

[00:13:18]>> Yeah. And we saw where that got you.

[00:13:20]Yes. Yes. So, I mean, Nimtt certainly is had to kind of agonize over this decision. uh he he realizes that Gormley is just not effective enough. And of course the the other subplot to this that uh that I think he knows about.

[00:13:33]Gormley is not at his physical best and uh so he's got an abscess problem like with several teeth or something and he's in horrible pain. So it's very hard for him to concentrate. Um he's not exactly in really good physical condition overall. He's not aggressive by nature.

[00:13:50]He's not there. He's, you know, so Nimttz likes Gormley and thinks quite highly of him, but I think he realizes, you know, as as we're getting about a couple months into the battle of Guad Canal that he needs a more aggressive leader there, uh, a more on-site leader.

[00:14:05]And so he's got Holly on the bench at this point. Holly has just, you know, been, you remember, you know, not able to participate in the Midway battle because of the skin problems. And of course, Holly being Hoy, he's itching literally to get back into the game. Um, and Hoy is is exactly the kind of aggressive guy. So, I think Nimz is lucky that he's got Hollyy as a replacement and that's probably a factor in the decision to to sack Gormley, don't you think?

[00:14:32]>> Yeah. And I think Holly, I mean, he's got a reputation as an aggressive guy.

[00:14:37]He's a aircraft carrier, you know, group commander. He's, you know, oh, maybe at this point in the war, he's just in charge of an aircraft carrier, but his carrier is out to sea when Pearl Harbor is attacked by the Japanese and he comes and sees all the damage wrought that later that day, you know, and I think that really lights a fire under him, you know. I think he realizes what war is and the scale that it can be that it's going to sink ships and he's like, "Okay, you're going to sink your our ships. We're going to do the same to you." I I think seeing physically seeing the damage of Pearl Harbor filled him with a rage that he's going to bring with him to Guad Canal. And I I I he I don't know that he was a perfect commander. He he does some things like he puts a what was like a battleship in the slot, you know, right off of Guad Canal where can almost can't even maneuver, but it provides heavy firepower. And so he's taking risks. You know, they're not always the best, but at least he's taking them. And it's from a place of we're gonna fight. We're gonna we're gonna sacrifice our navy to win if that's what it takes.

[00:15:45]>> Yeah. I think really Hollyy this is his shining moment in World War II in my opinion. Just in my opinion. I he is the exact kind of aggressive commander we need at this point and he's he's going to be you know good aggressive commander sort of sometimes fortunate or their timing is is good >> in that two big things happen in the wake of Holly taking over. Maybe in part because he's there but maybe not.

[00:16:07]um you know the the stying of the the last major Japanese land assault to to take Henderson Field that we talked about in the previous episode, right?

[00:16:15]>> And then when uh when the the land-based air from Henderson Field sinks a lot of the the Japanese convoys coming in to reinforce uh and Holly will later say I think with a bit of hyperbole, but he'll later say, you know, that if that goes the wrong way, then we're end up we're going to end up with another batan situation on Guadal Canal. He he said Vandergrift would have been our Waywright or something is what he said.

[00:16:39]>> And I think that's a little bit strong language, but also too the point is, >> you know, the war the battle still could have gone in Japan's direction at that point in late October even after the Americans stopped them. Uh and so when this happens when when they lose about 2/3 of their their convoys, you know, and on so many soldiers at sea, I mean, now that really robs them of of the strength they need. At the very same time, the Americans are going to be able to to to now gear up, resupply, reinforce, and you're going to have a lot more army assets come into play. So, so that's kind of the the second part of this conversation, I think, is we all know, we've talked about how the First Marine Division is just kind of done by early to mid December.

[00:17:20]>> They've given everything they can.

[00:17:21]>> They've given everything they can. That it's a phenomenal unit that has has fought to its limit and they're really racked by disease as much as anything.

[00:17:30]And uh they've been reinforced by America by the 164th in mid-occtober as we talked about. And then we're going to get in, you know, the 132nd and the 182nd, the two other key regiments from the division in addition to their artillery assets. Those are going to start landing incrementally. And then the 25th division is on its way from Hawaii. Tropic Lightning, which is such a good unit. Um, so you talk about a shot in the arm. In addition to know Vanderggrift, of course, is going to have to be evacuated because he's been through the ring or two, man. He's good.

[00:18:02]He's such a good commander. I mean, he needs a break.

[00:18:06]>> He needs the break. And of course, he's about to get promoted to be the comedant and which, you know, I mean, how can you get a better comedant than that, I think. But, uh, >> um, so that means our guy Sandy Patch is about to take over. And you and I have talked about him a lot.

[00:18:20]>> He's an interesting dude. Uh before we get into that, just last comments on uh on Hollyy. Uh you know, we talk about him being aggressive and anything, but you know, the obvious he goes to Guada canal. You know, he's there. He's photographed.

[00:18:34]>> Um and he gives that order about killing Japanese that's very, you know, at its time very effective. Kill kill more Japanese, kill more Japanese, kill more J. I mean, it it's such an attitude change, very handson. Um but yeah, all the stars are kind of aligning. The reinforcements are coming in from the army. You've got good leaders coming in, you know, and and you know, the first the first marine division is also going to be switched out with the second marine division. So there's a lot of American firepower uh and leadership coming uh and landing. And John, what what to the first difference on the ground uh that's going to occur? I I really think there's a there's a more modern organizational structure now. Uh all of these units are going to be placed under the umbrella of 14th core.

[00:19:24]So patch then has kind of been graduated from being a division commander of America now to being commander of 14th core. Uh which allows them basically to control all those land combat assets uh and to do so quite effectively. Uh, I think also too the Japanese are are pushed back far enough from Henderson Field that their artillery as now we get into to the end of December and into January, their artillery can't really hit Henderson Field quite, you know, the way it once had.

[00:19:53]>> But we still have to be worried about all that high ground that's still brooding over within a few miles.

[00:19:59]famously, of course, Mount Austin, uh, the GEU strong point, the galloping horse, which that that name comes from like what this terrain feature, this this kind of mountainous area looked like overhead. It looked like a galloping horse and on the maps, too. Uh so more on the maps than in the photo recon. But u >> um so that's the job of the American um and the the uh the 25th Infantry Division and the Second Marine Division that are we're going to see here how Marines and soldiers fight shoulderto-shoulder and fight extremely well together as they will tend to through most of this war. Even though we hear about conflict here and there, you know, but but I think that's kind of overblown a little bit in my opinion. I think Patch proves to be a really good interervice um commander. Uh and uh and I think I think you know this is this is sort of a pattern you're going to see from this point on in the war is the Americans generally on the attack and the Japanese hunkering down and fighting to the death in in this case in really good prepared uh position. So, like around Mount Austin, you're talking about um you know, log reinforced bunkers where you've got dozens of them all with um interlocking cones and fields of fire.

[00:21:14]Um you know, you cannot unlock one without dealing with others. Um so, this is the pattern you're going to see a lot as we're assaulting uh really strongly entrenched Japanese who are determined to fight to the death. And man, when the Japanese are on the defensive, they are really good soldiers. We're on their own offense, not as much like we had seen at Guadal Canal already.

[00:21:36]>> Um, you know, because they don't manipulate combined arms all that well.

[00:21:41]They they tend to have the human wave assault at times, you know, self-defeating. So, in this case, this is a blast them out thing and sometimes hand-tohand combat. Um the the the the ferocity of this is absolutely horrifying and does set the tone for the rest of the Pacific war I would argue. I mean and so it's really I think this is more characteristic of what the Pacific war is going to be there forward then is the earlier phase in Guadal Canal just just in my opinion.

[00:22:08]>> And John the Army campaign how long is that compared to the first Marine Division campaign? Are they about roughly the same amount of time like three or four months? It's uh so it's about two it's it's see so it starts in uh like I think it's December 17th.

[00:22:24]>> Uh so that's uh month and a half. So we fight into early February I think. Of course there's no formal surrender like there is at Stalin Gro at the same time.

[00:22:34]>> So and of course there's a kind of you know one little thing that the Japanese do salvage from this. They they withdraw about 10,000 soldiers right under the noses of the Americans and the Australians. um you know the Navy primarily, >> right?

[00:22:48]>> Uh so they do get some of their guys out, but uh so you're talking about six to seven weeks of ferocious fighting hilltop to hilltop, bunker to bunker, pillbox to pillbox in which these guys, uh you know, for the Japanese are usually wanting to fight to the death.

[00:23:04]Um you know, and when they are surrendering, sometimes the Americans won't take them prisoner, right? We've talked about that. You know, we talked about the Getty Patrol and in that tone set. Um, so this is this is so horrifying that by the end of it, I'll give you an example. Uh, there's there's one little like last spasm Japanese attack toward the last phase of this and uh and and it's I think it's a headquarters that attacks and these guys are all slaughtered. You know, there's like doz There's several dozen, you know, like majors and colonels and captains and lieutenants, which tells you it's an HQ. And there was a warrant officer. Um they they the Americans found his body and they found what appeared to be a binoculars case and they opened it up and inside it was this disgusting horrible smelling meat. What appeared to be meat. One of the American soldiers is like what is this? And took it to uh his I think his battalion surgeon and said what am I looking at here? And the surgeon looked at it and he said that's a human liver. And uh so what that tells us is the Japanese some of them at least according to this story might have been resorting to cannibalism at that stage. That's how hungry they were. They called it starvation island.

[00:24:16]>> So they about the third about 36k um ground soldiers fight for the Japanese in this battle between Imperial Army and the special naval landing forces. Um about twothirds of them don't survive.

[00:24:28]>> Right. And uh and it's really just about 60% die in combat versus disease or malnutrition.

[00:24:35]>> Yep.

[00:24:35]>> Roughly.

[00:24:36]>> And um you know, at no point do the Marines ever take the entire island, there's really no point to it. It's as long as you hold Henderson um and once the Japanese are wiped out, the the island is so so much of a jungle that doesn't make sense to. But I always thought that was interesting because all the other islands, the much smaller islands that the Marines and the army do usually capture the whole thing. And John, at the end here, the supply system, are are the Americans getting flamethrowers? I mean, I think that's what we all think about about driving the Japanese out of bunkers, but they did not. They did not.

[00:25:10]>> Not yet. So, that's what's interesting, too, Kevin, is that you don't really have the flamethrower too much in play yet, right? So, in assaulting these defensive positions, you're using as much artillery as you can coordinate.

[00:25:21]They are just firing shells at them.

[00:25:23]There's one American attack where they fire 780 shells in a matter of like half an hour or something like that.

[00:25:29]>> That's the American army right there.

[00:25:31]>> It is. So So obviously there's a lot of coordination for that. But in the end, you're you're having to you're kind of funnalizing everything because you know there's only so many routes of advance.

[00:25:40]So it's basically an infantry attack and engineers too maybe to try deal with some of these positions too with satchel charges maybe. But no, there there and there's not much in the way of armor yet. There will be, of course, as you know.

[00:25:52]>> Well, that terrain is not armor favorable. You know, >> it isn't. And a lot isn't in the Pacific War, but still, we're going to find ways to use it and use it effectively as we go further on. But at this point, not a whole lot. Uh, so it's kind of an infantryman's fight. And uh so I think this is maybe we should do you know more on this in another episode because we're running out of time but but uh I really think like in that movie the thin red line a lot of this is really well portrayed. It's an infantry men's fight up there on those ridges you know so >> well they were a lot braver than us John I'll tell you that because you know what you know what that means.

[00:26:27]>> That means and we know what we are we are chumps and uh it's time for dump the chumps STC as we call it. You hear Mark laughing in the podcast already.

[00:26:39]>> This is what Mark lives for every week.

[00:26:41]>> Bring it, Mark. I I got a good feeling about today. They're all Pacific questions, so I'm not going to say anything. Go on.

[00:26:46]>> Let's get to enough uh jaw bombing here.

[00:26:50]Um all right, so here's a uh a Pacific adjacent question that relates to Normandy, my >> Oh, good.

[00:26:58]>> It's from uh two brothers, Will and Scott Monree.

[00:27:02]>> Hey, guys. who are fans of the show.

[00:27:05]>> Good guys.

[00:27:06]>> So they say hello. This is uh here's one that is more true to the nature of trying to stump.

[00:27:13]>> So there you go. Shot across your bow.

[00:27:15]>> Oh yeah.

[00:27:17]>> He he also supplies the answer. But here's the question.

[00:27:21]>> How many US Marines >> How many US How many US Marines were ready to go ashore in combat capacity as part of the Normandy invasion?

[00:27:32]Wow.

[00:27:33]>> So, I've actually read a book on this.

[00:27:34]The Marines put out a book on it. Um, there were a handful of Marines that parttook in the Normandy invasion.

[00:27:43]Actually, our friend your and your good friend John Long. Uh, what what do you call that at the end of the show where you profile an individual?

[00:27:52]>> Uh, we salute you.

[00:27:53]>> We salute. Yeah. Yeah. Someone talked. Y there was a Marine officer uh off of Utah Beach and I think John said he landed on Utah Beach, but then John sent me the guy's diaries and I read it over and it I could not determine that he stepped foot on Utah. He described what he saw on the beach, which I think the way you read it, it could imply he was, but I couldn't definitively say that.

[00:28:18]But you you remember you'd have Marines as policemen on every ship, every American large ship, you know. Um, but this book on the Marines, it was like Marines in the Mediterranean and European theater. Uh, and it was just a handful. Now, maybe he's got some information, I don't know, but I looked kind of thoroughly, I thought, at that Marine, it's in a Marine Corps publication. I think it's in the trunk of my car, uh, that I picked up at the Marine Corps Museum. Uh, John, uh, thoughts, additions.

[00:28:48]>> So, yeah, I think that's so my impression is there are a few Marines who do land, not at Utah Beach, but at Omaha Beach, I think almost like a squad-sized group just to say the Marines did land. And they are, you're right, they're those shipboard Marines, you know, I think it's is it cruiser and above? I think that during World War II that you'd have a marine contingent.

[00:29:09]>> I honestly don't know, but yeah, you obviously are not going to see them on small ships.

[00:29:13]Yeah. I mean, so, so in other words, you know, part of the question was combat loaded and combat equipped. I mean, I guess technically because they're not going ashore without weapons, but they're not going in like as assault troops the way you would at Ewima, you know, um or or Saipan or something as a marine. Uh so these are shipboard Marines who are there to kind of show the flag in a sense if they are getting a short and very very few do. Um I think I think um John Gani might might have talked about this in his amazing book.

[00:29:45]Oh, what is it called? Spearheading D-Day. I'm looking at it here. Um which is all about like the various special units and all kinds of stuff. It's it's just an amazing piece of work.

[00:29:56]>> And I think he talked about the Marines there. But I I love this question because u Will and Scott uh were were part of a tour I did with the World War II Museum. Of course, they're one of our sponsors.

[00:30:06]>> Ringer, of course, they love and know John McManis. That's great.

[00:30:09]>> And they they always came up with the best questions. I mean, cuz they man, they they they're into it and and they know what they're talking about and it's it's just it's funny. So, they're perfect for Stump the Chumps because I think they're always trying to come up with something that'll be completely over my head, which probably isn't that hard to do, admittedly, but uh >> but yeah, th this one it's, you know, >> this one's good, right? because it feels like it's super detailed, but the answer is like, yeah, maybe you might have known. I mean, it's uh it's not like what was someone's favorite color, right? This is >> so here here's the answer.

[00:30:45]>> 84 Marines.

[00:30:47]>> Okay. They were part of the USS Texas Marine Detachment >> and they were geared up on D+1 and preparing to deploy to Point the Hawk in an effort to assist the Rangers who if you remember they were kind of >> wait a second. Did they ask about Marine contributions on Dday? Because that's D plus one talking.

[00:31:08]>> It said the Normandy invasion.

[00:31:11]>> Nice caveat, guys.

[00:31:13]>> My impression of D-Day, but okay. All right. All right.

[00:31:17]>> The war in Europe.

[00:31:20]>> Yes.

[00:31:22]>> He he says their boats were cancelled at the last minute in an apparent effort by the army command to prevent press headlines about Marines saving the buy that >> backstory to this. One of the Monreef brothers is a former Marine. So I think that's partially where that comes from too.

[00:31:39]>> Is he an ex-Marine?

[00:31:40]>> Interesting cuz >> No, he's a former Marine.

[00:31:43]>> I know that's an insult. I just I am just kidding.

[00:31:46]>> No one is ever an expert. That's right.

[00:31:47]Exactly. So So but but um Yeah. So we could have used him at Point to Hawk.

[00:31:52]It's too bad that they didn't go shore because I think they could have helped a lot.

[00:31:56]>> Um >> but I mean he's got a point like can you imagine if the Marines had landed at Point to Hawk and fought off like German counterattack >> that would be in every history forever.

[00:32:06]Well, first of all, they would land with a public affairs officer to make sure with and and five cameramen to make sure the story is captured.

[00:32:14]>> Exactly. It would have been the Marines at Point to Hawk. And then we and then and then only 80 years later when we heard the second Ranger Battalion was there, you know, cuz we would have talked about it or me saying the army was there, you know, I would have knocked.

[00:32:27]>> John McManus has uncovered more research on point and discovered the army.

[00:32:31]>> John McManis is such a buzz kill. It's unbelievable.

[00:32:34]>> I know. I have to be the buzz kill for this. So, I guess maybe it's a good thing they didn't get ashore on that in that respect.

[00:32:41]>> I used to work with a guy named I used to work with a guy named Tim Lawson uh who had been in the Marine Corps and one time we were talking and I and I and I had just known him for a few months and I'm like so you're an ex-Marine, right?

[00:32:54]And the fire in his eyeballs like the ra I'm like, "Dude, I'm kidding. I know I you know you no one's an ex-Marine."

[00:33:00]He's like, >> "Okay, I thought you right in that." Oh my goodness. At least you didn't call him a soldier or a sailor.

[00:33:07]>> But it's fun to poke the bear, isn't it?

[00:33:10]>> Well, if you can hope to survive, I suppose so. But I'm not as bold as you are in that respect.

[00:33:16]>> All right, so Mark, let's get a question from one of my fans. Bring it.

[00:33:21]>> You're waiting a long time for that.

[00:33:22]>> Yeah, >> they they send their questions in by like regular snail mail, Kevin. So that's >> all right. So Oh, just to say Will and Scott also sent their sources. So >> Oh, what is the source?

[00:33:39]>> Uh, one is the Battleship Texas Foundation.

[00:33:43]>> Okay. It's a great one, >> which is interesting.

[00:33:45]>> Yeah. And there's another one, Thomas Smith Jr. Rivalry in Normandy. I'll have to see what that is, but >> interesting.

[00:33:52]>> Okay, the next one is from Sam from Savannah, Georgia. Sam >> says, "Good morning. Recently discovered the podcast after John's appearance on the unauthorized history of the Pacific War."

[00:34:04]>> I mean, oh, >> my question is, did US Army personnel consider the Pacific theater a backwater assignment? Did Navy personnel think the same about the Atlantic as opposed to the Pacific? Thanks.

[00:34:21]Uh, can I go first because I have a feeling my answer is going to be a lot shorter than yours, John.

[00:34:25]>> Um, >> go ahead, G.

[00:34:27]>> I would say yes in both cases. And I'm just going to give two examples and then John, you can expand. Um, yes, the Army felt the Pacific was a backwater. And I would use as my example the Korean War where just about every major army commander was from the European theater.

[00:34:44]I mean, it it it would have done them well to get guys from either the Italian theater or the Pacific, but from everything I've read, it was a lot of European commanders they relied on, at least for the army. And then as for the Navy in the European theater, um I would say yes, and I'm thinking more about the Rine Crossing, of which the Navy was incredibly important. You couldn't have done it without them. Um, but I know of soldiers I've interviewed and they said how they were making fun of the Navy from being so far from the ocean and the Navy guys kind of agreeing with it that they had been on land for so long. Uh, but John, you can you can answer this much better than I.

[00:35:24]>> Yeah, I think it's a kind of a yes and no. I mean, certainly uh I mean I think the Navy in relation to the war against Germany, it's the the grind is the battle of the Atlantic. you know that that certainly I think for for any kind of uh ambitious skipper the Pacific is more the place to be to to earn your stripes you know to be out there fighting the the Japanese either in a surface engagement if you're a surface guy if you're an aviator obviously we all know where you want to be and what you want to be doing if you're a submarine guy you're not obviously in the Atlantic that's not your thing so what we're talking about in the in the Atlantic for a lot of it is the you know the convoy duty the convoy escort the the unglamorous destroyers and destroyer escorts out there uh trying to make sure that we can move the senus of war which arguably is like one of the most important jobs in the entire war but isn't necessarily all that quote glamorous in a way so I guess yeah from a professional naval standpoint true that probably is thought of as a bit of a grind and backwater I don't know that the average sailor maybe looks at it that way too much beyond just whatever the job is in front of him um from an army perspective going to the Pacific again it kind depends, you know, who and what we're talking about. I I don't know that that there's a predominant opinion that they all think of it as a backwater. They certainly think of it as a more challenging place, but remember, too, there's a lot of Americans who are really angry at the Japanese and want to go fight the Japanese and especially earlier in the war. So, like we were talking about Tropic Lightning, the 25th Division earlier tonight. I mean, these guys are raring to get into Guava Canal because they've been strafed during the Pearl Harbor attack in their their, you know, up at Scoffield barracks and and uh so to them, I don't think they really want to go to the European theater. I mean, they want to go fight and kill Japanese. Um, so uh but but I'll say this, their commander, uh, who we didn't talk about earlier, but uh, Joseph Laden Collins obviously has a great career ahead of him. He had become convinced that the Pacific would be a backwater and uh he had become convinced that it was all about the air power and airfields and that there wouldn't be much there for an infantryman for a for a professional infantryman for advancement. And we all know how very ambitious he was. So he kind of pulls strings post Guadal Canal and almost like into New Georgia in mid1 1943 to get reassigned to Europe. And he's got enough connections that he does and of course he becomes commander of seventh corps. um you know so from his standpoint he would tell you it's a backwater. Uh from the average soldier standpoint it's kind of just where he's been sent and uh so so it's a very multi-layered question.

[00:38:06]So I'm only giving a general answer you know whatever my impression would have been.

[00:38:10]>> John u tell me if you agree with this. I I feel like from what you just said, uh, the for the Navy, the Atlantic is fighting an insurgency where the Pacific is a war of maneuver. Would you say that's a good way to sum it up?

[00:38:25]>> An insurgency >> because you're it's really yubot warfare. You're not you're protecting convoys. You're you're you're in one place and putting out fires, whereas in the Pacific, you're it's more maneuver and progression, things like that.

[00:38:41]I mean, it's certainly maneuver warfare in the Pacific, too. And Collins wasn't wrong about the importance of airfields and air power, >> where I think he has an oversight is not quite understanding how you're going to take that ground and develop it and and and how much work there is for a professional soldier to do, right?

[00:38:59]>> And arguably the the really the toughest and most ferocious, certainly the most vulgar fighting of the war. And I think any infantryman sort of worth his stripe might want to be there, right? You know, >> I was talking for the Navy. I was talking for the Navy that the Pacific's the war of maneuver where the Atlantic is more of an insurgency where you're putting out fires in one area.

[00:39:20]>> I mean, insurgency like by definition means you're going into an area controlled by your enemies in a way and having to then affect the population. I more stealth warfare maybe like >> submarines have a stealth element to them. Um and and of course it's kind of mass fleets ultimately too, you know, for these big invasions in the in the European theater in the Mediterranean.

[00:39:44]>> Uh but yeah, it certainly it's maneuver in the Pacific. There's absolutely no question. And it's not >> it's not, you know, as we know >> fleetto fleet, you know, surface engagements, although there are some >> few >> um you know, there's a few up the slot in the Solomons, obviously, you know, the battle of Lee Gulf. Um but uh but yeah, so I mean I think you're exactly right about the Pacific that it is something more of a maneuver fight from from both a naval standpoint but also a ground standpoint too in a way. I mean >> obviously you can't maneuver on a small island. I'm not saying that but in terms of like we're choosing to land amphibiously is what I'm alluding to.

[00:40:20]>> Right. Okay. Mark how we do.

[00:40:24]>> Uh I thought it was pretty good. You know I was good. I uh remember uh you know when I was a kid and I've told these stories in some other episodes about when I was young and there was one particular Pacific War veteran that I was close to and I remember one day asking him hey you know typical seven-year-old kind of question you know would you have rather fought the Germans and he said I would have preferred to fight neither one of them >> you know so I think at that level >> you're like you're right John it's just this is what I got to do.

[00:40:58]>> Yep.

[00:40:59]>> You know, if you're a grunt, >> rather be home repairing TVs.

[00:41:03]>> Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So, >> here we go. Last question from Brett Botcher Bcher.

[00:41:11]>> Uh he says, "Very much enjoying your podcast, Mark. Hope you're doing well."

[00:41:16]So, thanks, Brett.

[00:41:19]>> Kevin, I hope you're doing well, too.

[00:41:21]>> I quit.

[00:41:24]>> He's such a diva.

[00:41:27]with me.

[00:41:31]>> That's great. Well, thanks Brett. I am doing well and uh >> even though I get to deal with these two chunks every week, it's okay. But thanks.

[00:41:39]>> I wonder what influenced Mark to pick that questioner >> 100%.

[00:41:46]That's why >> uh he says, "What was the effectiveness of PT boats?"

[00:41:52]>> Interesting. I know you're both great naval historians, but you can figure that out.

[00:41:56]>> John, I think uh I read this in uh JFK JFK Reckless Youth uh which was highly critical of John F. Kennedy and I think he points out in that book that a that a PT boat never sank a single Japanese ship. However, they were running static.

[00:42:15]I mean, that was all we kind of had at the time uh as we're building our fleet.

[00:42:20]And so they were the front line and there's a difference between not sinking one and damaging a a a Japanese ship. So I think they did cause some damage and it's going to take a ship out of the the shipping range for a while. Um but for their size and the fact that they were using faulty torpedoes especially in the beginning of the war um and they were used in that stealth role of getting people around. I mean, he got MacArthur out of the Philippines. Um, so I think they were I'll just say that I'll say I think they were worth the investment because we we were really hurting on the supply end and what we had in the Pacific early in the war and they had to had to fill an unforgivable role. John.

[00:43:08]>> Yeah. I mean, I I would say if the measuring stick for their worth is whether they sink Japanese ships, I mean, you know, I'm sorry that that's like being angry at the the equipment guy for not scoring goals in a hockey game or something. I mean, it's not their role to be out there tangling with Japanese ships and sinking them. I mean, they they have some defensive weapons that they can use, the torpedoes. Some have, you know, guns mounted on their deck and and but no, I mean, they're they are designed for for quick dash reconnaissance. Um they're going to work with coast watchers a lot in the in the Pacific War.

[00:43:43]>> Um they are going to evacuate as you've alluded to the obviously the greatest military commander of all time and and Douglas MacArthur, you know, tongue and cheek.

[00:43:51]>> Remember to hate MacArthur for the right reasons, buddy.

[00:43:55]>> As our friend Rich Frank always says, that is so awesome. But I mean, they do a hell of a job there. I mean, in in getting not just MacArthur out, but you obviously select members of his staff and MacArthur's uh wife, Jean and his and his son Arthur. Um, and I think in the South Pacific up in the up in the Solomon's chain especially, you do see them kind of excel at that uh at that influencer sort of level of of reconnaissance and scouting and liaison and uh and um supply sometimes too. uh you know I mean they are they are useful small craft to be used there and and uh so I I just think there's >> it's not like there's a great investment in them at all >> I think it was yeah they they fulfilled the investment you know >> yeah and I think it takes some serious guts to climb aboard one of those little things and when there there's some much bigger Japanese ships out there in the neighborhood of course John Kennedy finds that out too right when it's uh so it's PT PT 109 I think was sliced in two by was it a destroyer or a destroyer escort? I can never remember was a destroyer.

[00:45:03]>> So I mean that's a pretty big warship to tangle with if you're in that that PT boat. So they're I don't think they're quite as effective, but they're kind of similar to the German eboats that are roaming around out there uh in the in the English Channel and do some some damage. most notably exercise tiger obviously in April 1944 uh that we often just call slapped in sand but I think it's more correctly should be called exercise tiger but uh so the PT boats don't ever have a coup like that but also too they don't have targets like that the Japanese don't have vulnerable LSTs roaming around out there that they may have done some damage to and if and I'm sorry if you're going to be expected as a PT boat skipper to to go toe-to-toe with a destroyer or or cruiser or even a destroyer escort I'm sorry that's just idiocy Y and that's not really why you're there. You remember we talked in a few episodes ago about someone asked about cavalry um one of the cavalry groups and like cavalry practice and all that. And so it's kind of similar in the sense that we'd all agree that if we're in an M5 Steward or we're in a jeep uh doing the recon thing, it's really not our job to be tangling with a Panther, right?

[00:46:10]>> Um or, you know, some kind of major German formation on and then get the hell out of there.

[00:46:16]>> Yeah.

[00:46:16]>> Yeah. for what they're supposed to do. I think the PT boats do do just fine in my opinion. I don't >> you know, John, there's a there's a piece of that JFK story that gets overlooked that I think is important that uh his ship his PT boat gets cut in half at night. Most of a lot of the PT boat operations are night operations. In fact, one operation Kennedy did was uh pulling Marines off an a raider battalion, I think, or uh marine raiders off an island. And one of those Marines was a Marine named Kruac who's later going to become a commander in Vietnam.

[00:46:47]Oh, we missed that guy to say about people that went from World War II to Vietnam. And there was another element I wanted to touch on.

[00:46:54]>> Uh, Guad Canal Diary. Uh, they talk about going out to Talagi in PT boats and they see the snorkel the the the the tops of submarines, Japanese subs, but the PT boats are fast enough that the the subs can't keep up with them. and so incredibly valuable for keeping the lanes open between Tagi and Guada canal.

[00:47:16]So yeah, they had they had such multiple missions and I remember doing research on PT boats at the national archives for some stories we were doing and they develop radar eventually for the PT boats. I mean there's they are constantly improving those those vehicle those craft. Um so they're not exactly what we remember and without them we wouldn't have a navy named after male. I mean, let's keep things in perspective, people.

[00:47:41]>> I mean, exactly. That's the ultimate. I mean, that's how we ought to mediator.

[00:47:44]That's a great point.

[00:47:45]>> Was that not a great opening to a show, seeing the PT, what is it? PT73 and just buffing those waves that I mean, that was I remember that was exciting as a kid. I love the show for the comedy, but I love seeing the PT boats just flying, you know.

[00:47:59]>> Oh, sure. For sure. That's so cool to skim the waves like that.

[00:48:04]>> Great. And and you also got to see the World War II experience of Captain Stubing from the Love Boat.

[00:48:09]>> Yes, that's right.

[00:48:11]>> Because right awesome.

[00:48:16]>> Yeah, that that's right. That's a real sailor, Captain Stew.

[00:48:20]>> Yeah, he's had a long career, man. Jeez.

[00:48:23]>> Absolutely.

[00:48:24]>> From death boat to love boat.

[00:48:27]>> That's There you go. That's your next book. I think you're doing a biography of Captain.

[00:48:34]>> I wonder if he was in Korea and Vietnam also.

[00:48:39]>> Well, we'd have to check. I don't think he's a three time CIB guy, but still, >> although he did he did fight in a European war because I did remember him from an episode of Rat Patrol. So, he's he was in a lot of theaters. Captain Stubing.

[00:48:52]>> And he and he was a tank driver, too. Of course, we're talking about Gavin Mloud, who played Captain Stubing. He was a tank driver in Kelly's Hero. Right. He had the negative vibes.

[00:49:03]>> With the negative vibes waves.

[00:49:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:49:08]>> Often he had those negative waves.

[00:49:09]Always.

[00:49:11]>> Always. And >> the negative vibes.

[00:49:15]>> Speaking of often, what we want often too is of course your questions for Stump the Chumps. You do those at World War II livegmail.com. World War II [email protected] with the Arabic numeral too. Uh, you also need to hopefully uh like, subscribe, share, uh, give us comments, send us comments, tell us what chumps we are. I mean, all that fun stuff. Please do that. And, uh, and of course, in the meantime, we want to make sure we don't have any negative waves or vibes, whichever they would be here. And one way we do that is to figure out like what we've been up to. So, Kevin, what you >> what you Well, I've been up to a lot, but I'm just going to focus on one thing, and that is that I spent my weekend down in New Orleans at the National World War II Museum. uh very graciously invited to speak twice uh at the Thursday night dinner where I spoke about Patton's diaries and how um you know his Patton's wife embellished them when she had them typed up and how many historians have used those um and then I was able to actually access the original handwritten ones to interpret patent on a whole different level for my books.

[00:50:17]And then I was with a on a panel by the great uh Rob Centino uh who introduced myself and John Major John Rickard from the Canadian Army. I covered patent in North Africa and Sicily uh and he covered patent in Mets and the Battle of the Bulge, which makes good sense because he wrote Patton at Bay about the Mets camp mets campaign. And then I think it was Advance and Destroy was his book on Patton and the Battle of the Bulge. And I was we were talking uh John and I and he told me and I didn't realize this and it almost sent me researching although it's too late. He actually accessed the ultra records the the Allied interpretation or or interception of German communicates. Uh he found them in like a Canadian research facility and I was like dang you know I I wish I had known that and had the time. I would have loved to implement those, you know, into my books, but I guess we always learn something after our books that could have been in there. But, um, a wonderful time. Met some great people, signed a lot of books. Uh, it's always great to see Helen Patton, my friend Roland Gaul, Don Fox, you know, just, uh, and John, you know, that's we we don't talk about it enough. Uh, as professionals going to these events, you know, yes, we get to speak about what we've researched. We get to meet people that are enthusiastic about our topics, but we get to see our peers and talk to them. And it's just such a different level of conversation because we've all been researching in those same directions, making mistakes, having unexpected successes, and it gives us a chance to cheer them and share those stories. And that's really what I one of the things I really took away and enjoyed. So, I hope they invite me back.

[00:52:04]I'll just put it like that.

[00:52:06]I'd be shocked if they don't if they're if they're thinking they're going to invite you back. And I'm sure it was great. Yeah. I mean, you're right.

[00:52:13]Networking. Yeah. It's so much fun to do that. And you you really do learn a lot.

[00:52:17]I mean, I learned so much. That's what I like a lot of times about going to the World War II Museum, but pretty much any conference like that. Just figure by the time I leave, there's a lot that I'm going to learn from the from the other folks. And I'm so glad you got to give that talk. Like the it's like the first night talk. We've talked about it because I did this. I gave an ELEL ber talk uh last fall for the same kind of venue >> and then you got to experience the same thing. It's super informal. Yeah.

[00:52:41]>> And it's it's just fun because people are just the people who attend the symposiums are so smart and know so much about World War II. They ask great questions. It reminds me of Stump the Chumps honestly the kind of questions we get, doesn't it? It's it's really similar.

[00:52:54]>> Uh I'll tell you the negative part about giving that speech. Uh there was another speaker in the museum the same time I was like getting ready to give my talk.

[00:53:03]So, I couldn't go and hear Rick Atinson speak cuz he was the speaker before me.

[00:53:08]And uh um oh, who's our buddy? Um Collins. Uh um >> Oh, Jeremy Collins.

[00:53:15]>> Jeremy Collins. They he walks by me with Rick Atinson, you know, and if I wasn't on crutches, I would have hurried over and just like tried to shake his hand or something, but I was like, "H bummer."

[00:53:27]So, that was my awesome weekend. Uh John, what about you? what you >> nothing glamorous at all. In fact, especially compared to your jet set life, this is really sort of mundane as usual. You know, you get all to do the fun stuff. But, uh, no, we're we're we're past midterms now and in, uh, this semester. So, I I've been talking a little bit about these classes. Uh, one in military history and one in World War II.

[00:53:51]>> Uh, the focus US World War II primarily.

[00:53:53]And um so it's around about this time of the the year that we do the the midterms, which is always a little I'm always a little worried, you know, like how much have they learned? How are they going to do here? Uh how how much have I screwed up? I mean, all those kinds of things. But they, you know, they they largely did pretty well. And I I was I was pretty pleased. You know, they they can always do better, of course, and there's some people that don't well do well always, but uh they they actually did. And I was I was kind of impressed that um with some of the the depth of knowledge in the World War II class especially about the grand strategy um because I ask them sometimes sometimes that you know we spend a lot of time on the unconditional surrender policy the Germany first policy and I think it's kind of interesting to get their take to examine that and see what they think you know once they actually know about it. And uh there was a uh I gave a bonus question uh asking who the commander was at Buuna and many of them got that right. So I was proud of them for that.

[00:54:50]>> Ask them next time what's Anzio.

[00:54:53]>> Yeah. I thought of that earlier when we were talking about that. I thought I mean a lot of them probably wouldn't have known Anzio until we covered it.

[00:55:01]But it made a hell of an impression on them. I think because of one of the World War series >> um episodes that I that I showed about the the fighting in Italy. And I think you know like you remember those um the parts about Anzio where they they interviewed some British veterans and they interviewed Bill Malden. Um >> no I don't remember that one.

[00:55:20]>> Oh it's a great episode. You should check it out. It's on YouTube and uh and uh and and a British war correspondent and it was just really interesting different perspectives. A German perspective uh uh it was uh they had Kessle Ring's chief of staff whose name escapes me at the moment. Um anyway, you know, the kids see that and I think that does make an impression on them. And so that's one of the reasons why I like to show documentaries with some sort of visual base point that I think tends to lock in with them.

[00:55:47]>> John, being an old man that doesn't remember things that well. Tell me what is a midterm now? Is it five questions, 10 questions, multiple choice essay?

[00:55:57]What is the what what is a midterm these days?

[00:56:00]>> Depends on the class, but in my case, I give essay tests. I don't think there's anything served by true false or like factoids that I have them memorize for multiple guests or something like that.

[00:56:11]Even fill in the blank, you know, >> I want to be thinking about the why and the how and they and explaining like as if they're the professor for a night, >> right?

[00:56:19]>> So like why and how does the United States end up in World War II and and what you need to tell me then is all the key events. What is an issue here? Why do people make the decisions they do? So that you can begin to kind of understand this thing. I think that's much more interesting.

[00:56:34]>> So, in my case, I give them Yeah. an essay exam and for the World War II class, they're doing three essays and in the the American military history class, which it doesn't meet for as long. Uh it's two essays that they're doing. I give them I I give them readings. So, one essay is over the readings, >> you know. So, that that's generally the way I do it. And sometimes I sprinkle in bonus questions, short answer bonus questions. Like in this case, I asked them, you know, who the American commander was at Buna. And I'd say twothirds of them, you know, got it right.Arthur.

[00:57:06]>> Yeah. MacArthur, of course, gave everybody the impression that he was actually there. Dang it. Failed. Curse that Dr. McManis.

[00:57:14]>> I think one of them might have put MacArthur. And I I got a chuckle out of that because MacArthur would have loved that. Um but yeah, I mean it's just kind of neat to see them see them learn and hope that uh they're having some kind of impact. And it's fun to see people um young people get fired up about World War II. Yep.

[00:57:31]>> Which certainly happens and that's one of the reasons why they're taking the class of course but >> then even more so and uh so that you know when they ask good questions and all all that good stuff >> you know I had a very nice experience at the symposium uh Rob Rob Satino asked me about Task Force BAM and you know a lot of people are very critical with Patton it was his biggest mistake of the war but I I pointed out the fact that you know this this is his daughter's husband And Patton's a human being and you know all I said everybody in this room is either a parent or has been in charge of like three or four people and there was some point where we didn't know what we were doing and we had to fake it and we were hoping we were making the right choices. we did not know. And Patton went through the same thing. And when I was done, a very nice lady walked up to me and she said, "Thank you for being the only historian here that I've heard talk about my greatgrandfather as a human being." And I'm like, "Lah, what?"

[00:58:32]And so she was the granddaughter of John Waters, who Patton tried to save from the Hamillberg P camp. So that was kind of special that you know that that she meant that what I said meant enough for her to approach me. So that was a high point of my weekend.

[00:58:50]>> Oh yeah, that's so cool. A personal connection obviously, but uh but yeah, I mean >> these are human beings like anybody else and you pointed that out and you're 100% right. Patton can make mistakes like everybody else >> except you and me.

[00:59:04]>> Yeah, I mean you and I obviously are exempt from that and and Mark probably is too, I guess, as long as he's nice.

[00:59:08]Yeah, he's Mark's like, "But you guys are chumps >> platant."

[00:59:17]>> And he's not wrong. North Plat Canteen has made that readily apparent, hasn't it?

[00:59:23]>> Well, anyway, gentlemen, I think we've we've had a fun time talking uh talking Guadal Canal and many many other topics tonight. It's been been great stuff.

[00:59:31]Again, I want to remind everybody, send your Stump the Chump questions to us at World War [email protected].

[00:59:37]World War II livegmail.com. Please make sure to uh yes on the Arabic numeral too. Kevin, you're right. And uh to to like subscribe uh of course for the audio you can get us on uh on Apple. Um you can get us on Spotify and all other uh kinds of platforms. Uh obviously we're available on YouTube. Please subscribe there and elsewhere. We want to build up our subscriber base and uh and just grow this thing because uh it's fun. We love engaging with you. We love hearing from you and uh we want to keep growing the thing. So, thanks for joining us everybody. Thank you gentlemen. Uh I'll put a pin on this one and uh Roger out.