MAURA MURRAY: RICK GRAVES #mauramurray #missing #missingperson #truecrimepodcast

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[00:00:01][music] [music] [music] >> So, uh let's go over the family dynamic one more time here before we move into the area of New Hampshire and yes, leaked statements from a lot of people that many have been curious about regarding the response to the scene and otherwise. So, this was uh a post by Annabelle, did Fred know that Maura took his car on Reddit. And a lot of interesting discussion followed.

[00:00:48]We went over some of this in the previous episodes.

[00:00:55]Here's an interesting post. Maura, this is from Fred's statement, Maura woke around 10:30. She told me about the accident. I asked, "Where's the car?"

[00:01:03]Even though Fred doesn't mention anything about letting Maura borrow his car Saturday night or that he wasn't aware she took it in his statement to UMPD, I think he knows she had it.

[00:01:16]But that he wasn't expecting her to be driving it around late Saturday night, early Sunday morning after the party.

[00:01:23]When asked, "Did you go to Liquor 44 with the girls?" At first he stated no, then thought about it and said, "I am unsure if it was before or after ABC. I think it was after ABC. I can remember the girls walking around looking for wine and telling them to just pick something."

[00:01:41]That's kind of weird. If Fred can remember Maura and Kate looking for wine at the liquor store Saturday night, surely he remembers getting dropped off at his motel and Maura taking his car.

[00:01:50]At least I would think so anyway. I think a good question would be did Fred and Maura have some sort of arrangement when she would return his car if he indeed let her borrow it. I mean, maybe something like Fred was expecting Maura to return his Corolla Sunday before check out, say 9:00 to 10:00 a.m.

[00:02:06]However, Rick Graves did say that Fred told him a different story about Saturday night and that Fred was called to the motel lobby by the night manager where he found Maura slumped over in a chair and crying.

[00:02:30]I mean, yeah, a lot of different stories here.

[00:02:38]To my knowledge, Fred has never mentioned at least to the public that the plan was for Maura to borrow his car Saturday night, but she had to have it back to him by Sunday at some point.

[00:02:48]However, I can't see Fred telling her to have his Corolla back to him right after the party at 2:30 to 3:00 a.m.

[00:02:55]I could see him saying he wanted it back in time for check out at the motel, say 9:30 to 10:30 a.m. That would be reasonable in my opinion. As for Graves, I see no reason for him to lie and say Fred told him a different story about Saturday night and finding Maura in the lobby slumped over and crying.

[00:03:11]I'm sure Fred read the true crime addict book, but I've never heard him dispute this claim by Graves.

[00:03:21]I don't see why Graves would contradict Fred and tell James Renner that Fred told him another story opposite of what he told UMPD and the media for the book.

[00:03:29]And again, I'm sure Fred read the book and I've never heard him say Graves misspoke or was outright lying. If Fred thought people took things out of context or were just lying about him, Graves would have been an example for Fred to use if true, in my opinion.

[00:03:44]This is just my opinion, but I think there were people like Graves early on who really wanted to help, but if they felt someone like Fred was lying to them about certain things, I could see a fallout and some people eventually walking away from giving their time to the case. I don't think Fred did himself any favors by essentially blaming law enforcement for doing what he thought was a lousy job. He was certainly vocal about it. Plus, suing the state of New Hampshire didn't earn him any bonus points with law enforcement, either.

[00:04:12]Annabelle posted, "There's absolutely a reason that Fred doesn't want to discuss Maura's behavior that weekend."

[00:04:21]Electronic Showboater posted this, "You know what I did what just occurred to me that if I put herself in my shoes at that age, if my parents allowed me to borrow their car and I totaled it, they would certainly be upset but still glad I was okay and not harmed. But, if I took it without asking and totaled it, they would have probably hit the damn roof with anger. Maybe that's why he was so pissed. Interesting. Maybe Julie could tell us."

[00:04:49]So, yeah, lots of curiosities in that direction, as well. And of course, there was a reward that was rescinded because of Fred's behavior cuz he wanted everything going through him.

[00:05:04]Now, if he thought there was a conspiracy a foot with various law enforcement and otherwise, I mean, that could be reasonable for him to want to do that, but Okay, who's ready for another major mind shock? Here's a post by Marie Quatra Pouches.

[00:05:22]"Go back to my sister. Kathleen also changed her version of the facts.

[00:05:28]Question mark.

[00:05:30]An interview Kathleen had done with 17 Magazine within weeks after the crash.

[00:05:37]She allegedly describes the nature of the phone call and provides some insight as to why Maura may have been upset after the call. She claims it is because she and Tim Carpenter were being threatened by an ex-girlfriend that Tim Carpenter owed money to.

[00:05:53]This version is more disturbing than the other where she says they discussed nothing scary. Thoughts? Question mark.

[00:06:00]Marie Quattroches posted, "I still believe it's an intra-family story."

[00:06:05]Remember the quote from Kathleen, "We are part of the reason Maura came up here."

[00:06:12]That also kind of goes back to Rick Graves and some of the strange >> [snorts] >> talking he heard between Kathleen and Tim as well. And then he's no longer on the case.

[00:06:25]The version that Kathleen changed later is more telling. It is about money and threats which could have motivated Maura to go to a specific place to help her sister.

[00:06:36]Okay, Significance posted, "Just thinking out loud, Tim and Kathleen possibly in the red truck out looking for her. Maybe Maura had the $4,000 and was going to meet the ex of Tim's on her own for payment because she was terrified Kathleen would be hurt. I would then think Tim's ex-girlfriend lives in the area. I know Fred said he put the money in his and Maura's shared bank account so she could access it anytime after disappearance. Who is this ex?

[00:07:07]Now, the first thing that comes to mind is Jessica C. Not that she was his ex, but is she connected to Tim Carpenter in some way? Cuz Carpenter, the last name does pop up in association with the Aldrich brothers and this other circle of of individuals, so to speak, local dirt bags if you will.

[00:07:27]Multin, the Aldriches, all these people, possibly the guy from Gary's Fuels and and that whole circle, possibly with police officers being involved in that circle and drug trafficking, etc. Is that what the $4,000 was for? Did Maura lie to her father and Fred and Fred really thought it was all going to be for a vehicle, but that was all just a setup to help Kathleen and Tim out?

[00:07:53]I mean, there's definitely some missing pieces in this theory, but what would It's kind of weird. And is Maura also breaking up with Bill Rausch over this or did Maura tell Bill Rausch about this? And Bill Rausch really was the good guy all this time.

[00:08:08]And now they're getting involved with West Point with West Point people that are also going to help them out?

[00:08:17]Now, it would be kind of crazy. Did Maura or Maura's Was Maura's vehicle also involved in the crash? Now, was the guy at Domino's Was he connected to Jessica C or possibly or possibly Tim's ex unbeknownst to Maura Murray and they set her up? Or like, what is going on here?

[00:08:37]So, from 17 the the 17 magazine, there's a quote here from Kathleen, "I was telling her about this fight I'd had with my fiance." End quote. That could also be more innocent because if they regularly fight, then that's a regular phone call, right? If she's regularly telling Maura about her fights with Tim Carpenter.

[00:08:54]However, Missing Maura Murray episode 22 minute 8:26, at 10:10 p.m., Maura calls Kathleen, her sister, and speaks with her for 20 minutes. And according to Kathleen's statement from 17 magazine, she was telling Maura about an ex-girlfriend of Tim's who he owed money.

[00:09:16]Tim is at the time the husband of Kathleen, so this is interesting.

[00:09:21]Maura's call with Kathleen lasts for 28 minutes.

[00:09:25]The ex-girlfriend that Tim Carpenter owed money to was harassing Kathleen and Tim on the phone, and Kathleen was sick of it.

[00:09:34]From from Kathleen.

[00:09:38]Okay, Maura consoled her, told her not to worry. Kathleen claims that Maura did not seem upset or sad.

[00:09:45]This is all kind of weird.

[00:09:51]Bernie posted, "Kathleen Murray and Tim Carpenter were both people with active addictions and didn't seem in the best mental space at the time. They were likely easily swayed to change or alter their story by someone with an objective of obfuscation."

[00:10:05]An objective of obfuscation, that's curious wording there.

[00:10:10]Yeah, that's tough.

[00:10:12]Another poster said that they remember that Kathleen Murray also said that Maura might have faked the meltdown to get out of work.

[00:10:21]Or perhaps to help set up taking off from school the next week.

[00:10:26]Hmm.

[00:10:28]Coral posted, "As a once 21-year-old young woman, the only thing that could have made me catatonic would have would have to be something awful I learned my boyfriend did. Take this statement any way you wish, but at that age, the only two things I cried about was when my dog was run over or a guy dumped or cheated on me."

[00:10:48]Gammy Pariah posted, "The shrine on the bed was intended for Bill to see, so she knew he was in town. She just thought by Monday he would have have to be gone, but dot dot dot."

[00:11:00]You know what's weird, though?

[00:11:03]Other sources state that Maura was not speaking to Julie, so they were not on speaking terms. Why not, though?

[00:11:10]And does it have something to do with Bill Raush?

[00:11:14]Another poster brought up True Crime Addict book, page 199, regarding Rick Graves. Fred told me when he got there, he found Maura slumped over in a chair crying. He never told me what she was crying about, and I never pushed him. One guy you don't want to push is Fred Murray. He'll clam up and never talk to you again." end quote.

[00:11:32]That's actually kind of interesting because if it was just about the Corolla crash, why wouldn't Fred tell Rick Graves that? It must have been something else.

[00:11:41]All right, let's continue here. This is a post by user since deleted, not sure who this is, but my theory on what happened to Maura after getting new information from a source. I cannot verify how accurate this source is, but they seem honest. This theory also comes from speaking to some locals and doing new research. Not saying this is what happened, just a theory.

[00:12:03]First, good job to Fulk for getting that info. I have yet to read the documents, so maybe those will tie to together some loose ends to what may have happened.

[00:12:10]Here is my theory on what happened to Maura after discussing some new info from a source who I believe to be honest, locals, and doing new research on top of this information.

[00:12:21]However, I cannot verify the information I'm receiving from this person and locals to be accurate. I'm simply trying to put some of the pieces together from what has been said, just a theory on what may have happened. First, I think there may be three to four people involved in Maura's disappearance. Butch leaves the scene to call the police.

[00:12:35]Maura wants to avoid the police. She's possibly intoxicated already and has alcohol on her, so she hitches a ride with a vehicle. This was probably one of the vehicles Butch heard pass by during that extremely short time span. There are two men in the vehicle that pass and offer her a ride. They help load her stuff into the car and get her out of there as quickly as possible. I have no idea who these guys might be, but they would be connected to the two other guys I will mention below. I think they were possibly passing through North Haverhill to reach their destination somewhere else, to go skiing or snowboarding the next day, or they were from that area.

[00:13:05]Maura accepts and gets in their car.

[00:13:07]Even though I think there may have been a female possibly involved that Maura knew, there is nothing to go off. These are the two guys who harmed Maura.

[00:13:18]These two men take Maura to an area in Benton, New Hampshire on How Hill Road, where they have access to a house there.

[00:13:25]The person I spoke to believes something happened to Maura at this specific house on How Hill Road. It is in a remote area secluded by many trees. She would have nowhere to go for help. The person I spoke to also believes her body was kept in the shed or barn area on the property until it was moved. The house belongs to a person of interest in this case who has been looked at from the very beginning. It is possibly the owner of this house left a key out for the two friends of his to get in the house on their own, especially if he knew they were passing through. She let her guard down and thought these guys were nice people. They were not. Maura was given drinks possibly mixed with drugs, sexually assaulted and then killed because the men knew it was impossible to let her go after she had seen their faces. It seems that there were two guys who helped cover for their friends, at least friends at the time, who harmed Maura. I believe all of these guys were possibly big on the skiing snowboarding in the area. Another guy named Mike from the North Haverhill area possibly knows the owner of the house as well and is the other guy who helped cover things up. He worked with lumber and cutting trees with a close friend who may or may not have been connected. Mike drove a '95 Chevy pickup with a wooden bed, but it's possible that it's just a coincidence. The name Mike has seemed to pop up since the beginning of the case.

[00:14:39]I'm still trying to put this part together, but this person I was speaking to believes this specific Mike guy was involved. She also believes one of the guys who harmed Maura may have been someone named James. I am wondering if there is some possible truth to the early Loon Mountain three rumor, if someone heard something but the truth was muddied over time. Thanks for reading, but please just take this as a theory. I am sending the key info parts given to me, not my entire theory from this source to and the locals to the Murray family.

[00:15:07]Other post here. One of the locals, not the source, that I spoke to a while back was told to back off when they were in the area investigating this specific person of interest. Pretty much threatened to not mention this person of interest name. I I don't believe this is concrete guy. I think they're talking about somebody else.

[00:15:27]I think a Didn't a Didn't a psychic mention the name Mike and also Ben or Benton? Ben as in Benton?

[00:15:33]I I don't know.

[00:15:36]Actually, concrete guy apparently also did live on that road, but this I I actually don't for some reason I don't think they're talking about concrete guy.

[00:15:46]Hm, actually other people talking about this are saying this this is concrete guy.

[00:15:52]And he was friends with either a fake or real Maura Murray account on MySpace.

[00:15:58]You know what's weird though? So, there's two separate stories here.

[00:16:01]There's There's the Lime Kiln Road stories, mount which may or may not connect to the Mountain Lakes area with the A-frame, and then there's also How Hill Road further to the east and Benton.

[00:16:15]And the uh 116 intersection area where the forest area sighting was, closer to that direction. So, is it Does it seem possible that both stories could be true?

[00:16:32]The OhMyCoincidence user, is he kind of pointing more into one group of people and not the Aldridges? And then the How Hill Road, possibly concrete guy and the Aldridges involved?

[00:16:45]I mean, is it How can both of these stories be rectified? Or is it theoretically possible there was more than one party, and there was one good-natured party, and then it moved to a secondary location where it's not good-natured?

[00:16:58]And what does Jessica Ceneau know about this? Cuz how do we cover all these variables?

[00:17:02]Obviously, some of these people could be lying, yes.

[00:17:06]I mean, it's possible all of them could be lying, right? Yeah.

[00:17:09]Is it possible none of them are lying?

[00:17:11]Or is it possible only some of them are lying, but does that mean any part of any story is completely untrue or completely true.

[00:17:18]It's tough. It's tough. I mean, this is not the most complex case without a reason. I mean, clearly the most coincidences than any case ever.

[00:17:26]And it's just it's really, really mind-shocking. It is It's kind of hard to see It's kind of hard to say that this is not the most mind-shocking case ever.

[00:17:36]I'm going to read a comment. I'm not sure if this is the same user that wrote this, but it might be.

[00:17:42]This is from Repulsive Wallaby, a great poster.

[00:17:47]This is from a local a local an unnamed local speaking about other locals including concrete guy.

[00:17:54]Quote, "Claude Moulton for sure and those who associated with him, there were multiple rumors. There were like the more logical ones and ones that were more about crazy and more complicated stories. The Aldridge brothers and their associates, the Boutiliers."

[00:18:10]I mean, we're going on so many hours now. This is the longest podcast in the Maura Murray series thus far. I'm trying to wrap up all the connections here.

[00:18:18]But apparently, so there's going to be a lot of crazy stuff here, but the Boutiliers also they owned a house right in the area as well.

[00:18:31]So, yeah, a lot of connections here, but there seems to be a link between Yeah, the Moultons, the Aldridge brothers, the Boutiliers, and possibly also the the G brothers.

[00:18:43]But anyway, let's continue here from this uh source. "Williams for sure was talked about, the former police chief. A DUI that he panicked about or somehow thinking Maura Murray was his mistress and something happened. And his steps his son or stepson who was said to have a birthday around then.

[00:19:00]Possible connections to military, but I could be misremembering. A guy who lived behind the Attwoods, I think he was actually in trouble for CSAM. The boys from the Oliveri school, they were always in trouble.

[00:19:15]Rick Forcier, after his whole story came out, he was coming home from drywalling at that time of night in February. Where was he drywalling? Did he work with a helper or solo? Did he have lights? He wasn't the only dude in construction making off-color jokes about it shortly after it happened. I heard two guys myself do that and my ex came home astounded every day for a while at these kind of jokes people were telling. But honestly, friend, it seemed as though whatever corner of the North Country you were in, people had different rumors about whoever the town loser was and whoever the big drug suppliers were, rumors that they were the people involved.

[00:19:48]In Whitefield area, everyone was convinced it was a guy with the last name starting with an S.

[00:19:55]My ex's boss at the time was even talked about by some people. He owned two construction companies, a restaurant, and one of the biggest suppliers of cocaine in the Groveton and Bretton Woods area. And he was a lot of things, but definitely not a murderer. It seemed like nobody thought about McKay much.

[00:20:11]When Erinn's podcast came out, it was like, "LMFG, finally someone is thinking about McKay." I mean, Chris King touched on it for sure, but if you have ever spoken to him about anything, you realize he is deep in his own rabbit holes. I do not think it was McKay, though, but I did look far into it because there was a time it seemed plausible to me. Over the course of some years, I lived in Lisbon, Bethlehem, Franconia, and Vermont, right across the river, but up by Stratford. I also lived near Dover for a few years, but when I lived in the North Country of New Hampshire, I knew people from as far north as Milan and Colebrook, all the way down to Bath. People from all walks of life. When I lived in Franconia, Lyco was still alive. McKay was harassing people on my road daily, and one of Lyco's close relatives rented an apartment that was in the same old farmhouse barn where I was renting. At the time of Maura's disappearance, I was living in Bethlehem and there was a big pond that you could get to through some woods in my backyard that was rumored to be where her body was dumped.

[00:21:08]Was that ever searched?

[00:21:10]My landlord owned a house on the corner of the road you'd take to get to the UMass cabin.

[00:21:17]I looked far into concrete guy years ago because my ex knew local people who were talking about him. They talked about him not because they heard him say anything weird or anything like that though. And I kept looking because he checked so many boxes for me. As a flat lander, I would say concrete guy could pull off the right vibe to seem like a nice local. He was a skier. I cannot remember if he was in the National Guard after Maura Murray or before.

[00:21:40]But for me, he was a plausible suspect if a random guy offering a ride sexual assault that ended in murder. His brother was a forest rescue guy, not sure if he still is. On another note, Tim and Kathleen and the G brothers. I heard from someone working with Helena that Kathleen had said something to the effect of quote, "Maura had a plan and also said, 'I told her to go hang with Tim's cousins.'"

[00:22:09]End quote. Around the time she was saying things about her dad maybe paying attention to her now.

[00:22:15]Tim has a connection to the G brothers.

[00:22:20]One of the Gs was married to Tim Carpenter's sister, I think, {question mark}. They all lived on the same road or down the road as the Murrays for a while. The G brothers being involved is something that checks off a lot of boxes as well. And also, if Tim Carpenter also has a connection to the Ultridges.

[00:22:39]Is that the connection? Is that where Maura was going to lay low for a while if she believed that Bill Raush or someone else was uh going to do something bad to her or something?

[00:22:51]And then that didn't turn out well because of the scumbags that they turned out to be?

[00:22:56]Huh.

[00:22:58]That's all really, really crazy.

[00:23:02]Really, really crazy. Let's go further into mind shock land.

[00:23:09]More Murray and the West Point connections.

[00:23:15]Armadillo Flats posted this, is it possible that Maura had friends from West Point that this community is not aware of and that she was still in contact with them, male or female? Is it possible that one of these people is a resident of the New Hampshire area and neighbor in New Hampshire area or has acquaintances there and this person is from a wealthy powerful family, question mark?

[00:23:37]>> [snorts] >> Pitiful history posted, Julie to my knowledge never said it was male or female, but I believe I just went back and looked at the Tik Tok. It was actually two friends, but she never gave me any clarification if it was male or female. So, she was in contact with two people at West Point.

[00:23:52]>> [snorts] >> User since deleted also say that locals say that she that Maura Murray was going to Bath to meet somebody there. Huh.

[00:24:02]Another post set by user since deleted, some of the family work associate connections of Claude Moulton's ex-girlfriend.

[00:24:11]Gary Boutier, Claude himself, and a certain individual who actually studied at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, graduated Woodsville High and drove a unique red pickup truck with a wooden bed. I attached a photo of the truck.

[00:24:24]So, there's an individual redacted who studied at Fort Sill, Oklahoma and drove a unique red truck with wooden bed, relative worked with concrete guy.

[00:24:36]I don't think this is concrete guy they're talking about, but it's either concrete guy or someone associated with him.

[00:24:43]This is the final mind shock post I'm going to go over.

[00:24:47]We've already been going for a while. I mean, we can only handle so many mind checks at a time.

[00:24:52]This will not be the final episode. I actually have to do at least one more cuz there's even more info to go over.

[00:24:57]But also by user since deleted.

[00:25:02]Supposedly this is from locals. There I may be going around in circles but there is only one person who never leaves the scene. What should we do with him? There are many questions and no answers. We can only assume what Maura Murray was thinking, planning or doing. There have been several suspects throughout the years. Some by the police, some through the media and some in forms like this by outsiders looking in.

[00:25:24]This was posted.

[00:25:26]So this is on the Franconia forum on topics 2011.

[00:25:32]Unless it was copy pasted from earlier.

[00:25:35]But only one has been named by the locals to this date and like I said only one refused to cooperate. Well actually it seems like several did. He lived in the area. His friends lived in the A-frame house that has been talked about and his father's business is not far from the accident scene either. Also keep in mind Maura went to West Point.

[00:25:51]This person was and is in the National Guard from New Hampshire and has done time in Iraq. Would it not make sense for her to trust someone from the military rather than the the school bus driver? Could it have been a chance encounter of the two that just went wrong? These questions may never be answered and the locals may be pointing the finger at him because they dislike him and his family. This I do not know.

[00:26:11]All I know is what I've been told and that is what I put here.

[00:26:15]So I believe this is pulse of wallaby responding. There is one person I am even more curious about who is off everyone's radar. A Woodsville local went to Fort Sill the same time as Bill.

[00:26:28]Graduated Woodsville in 2003, Woodsville High, and drove the exact type of pickup trucks with wooden beds. He also was a work associate of Claude Moulton and Sky Weeks. It seems he actually made wooden beds for his trucks and drove a red truck at one point as well as for other companies and himself. Almost all of them have wooden beds matching to the type of what RO described. The possible Fort Sill connection is really interesting.

[00:26:55]He's owned at least four trucks, all with wooden beds.

[00:27:00]So, here's another This is copy-pasted.

[00:27:05]I do not know if this is the original poster talking about concrete guy or this new POI who was at Fort Sill with Bill. Also, keep in mind the following fact, this person is on the short list of suspects. Fact, this person's father's business poured a new concrete floor in the shop shortly after Maura's disappearance.

[00:27:28]I'm assuming they're talking about concrete guy here. Fact, they denied the police access to the business property and did not cooperate with law enforcement on any level at that time. I do not know if that has changed. Fact, state police wanted to x-ray the concrete floor but were denied access and told to get a search warrant. Fact, the Grafton County attorney's related to this person. Fact, my son is married to his niece. I call her ex-niece because her aunt is his ex-wife. And she believes he could have done this. Fact, his ex-wife moved here to get away from him. Fact, his son thinks he could be capable of doing something like abducting her. Fact, my sons are very good friends with his son and know him quite well. Fact, all you go on is the media reports and take them as end all, be all.

[00:28:13]Another quote here, I've heard a lot of rumors but one sticks out to me. There's a lot of abandoned wells on a lot of land out there. I've heard several times in the little general store we have in town that Maura was taken by a local man the police have questioned several times. Is this relating to Aldridge?

[00:28:31]Or Boutilier? Chopped in a wood chipper and dumped in a well maybe something the family might want to look into. I am just saying with all the years I've lived around here, this little town never talked so much as when she disappeared. And there is a lot of old land and forgotten wells.

[00:28:48]Another post here. Maybe while he's there he can ask if anyone ever found it odd that two bodies were discovered in Lincoln, New Hampshire. Lincoln is on Route 112 not far from where Maura disappeared February 9th, 2004. The two bodies were discovered May 1st, 2004.

[00:29:03]The woman had a neck wound, had been stabbed. She had an Oregon driver's license in her possession. She also had a passport indicating Illinois as her birthplace.

[00:29:13]Fingerprints matched MG.

[00:29:17]Believed last known place she lived was Northboro, Maine. Authorities have never had any relatives come forth as far as I've read. Relatives did claim the other body. What is going on in that area?

[00:29:27]What is the magnetic attraction? My guess is many of the bodies did not end up there voluntarily.

[00:29:32]This is pretty crazy. So supposedly the bodies were reportedly uh suicides, but who knows, especially with all the corruption and/or incompetence going on up there.

[00:29:43]Unable Strain posted at the very beginning, I was living in the general area and I would not say most locals pointed their finger at the concrete guy. Honestly, there were a couple other locals who were talked about more than him. And depending on what part of the area you were in and who you were talking to, there were many different people talked about whose names never made it to any of these forums. People definitely did talk about him, but I would never say he was POI number one as far as local rumors went. However, if he happened to be driving by and offered help, I do think in that moment he could have pulled off the I'm a regular nice person vibe enough for her to accept the ride. And here's another curiosity.

[00:30:19]Let's say concrete guy or one of these other named people actually did give her a ride somewhere else and there was a party somewhere else and something happened at that party without the person who gave her a ride present. If that person is part of this circle or whatever or just never wanted to come forward for whatever reasons cuz they knew they would be able to they would be accused and there is some kind of local cover-up in preventing that information from being known even if the person who picked her up is not the one who harmed her. Of course, this all hinges on the fact of whether or not she was even there.

[00:30:47]And I'm going to close this out with some uh enhanced images of the ATM Repulsive Wallaby also had sent me.

[00:30:56]It does appear that Morris kind of beat up. Obviously, whether or not that's from a car accident or not is up to uh up to speculation cuz obviously we don't know. Obviously, the the liquor store footage would be very very helpful, but obviously that has not been released.

[00:31:12]So, I hope everybody found another edition of the Mindshock podcast in the Maura Murray series, the longest running series here, interesting and informative. I really was hoping to go over everything, but there's just so much here. But, I'm trying. I'm trying to go over all of it so that all the information is out there and this can keep up awareness in this case, so hopefully it'll be solved soon. Some believe law enforcement and even Julie Murray knows exactly what happened. And they're just waiting or trying to gather the the necessary evidence for for a successful prosecution.

[00:31:44]Make of that what you will. Obviously, all of the astute Mindshock listeners out there, especially if you're an OG listener from the beginning, I always like to hear from from the original listeners from when Mindshock started. I don't know if there's too many of them around, but if you're still around, just keep commenting. Comments always welcome. Thoughts and theories always welcome, especially from the OG listeners.

[00:32:06]So, leave them in the comments section or in the chat here.

[00:32:10]Make sure to subscribe to the channel, hit the bell for notifications. You can also become a YouTube member right here on YouTube for access to exclusive streams and chats. Like and share Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Patreon. This is Bruce [music] McGuire signing off.

[00:32:19]Catch you guys next time.

[00:32:26]>> [music] [music]