Muslim SPAWNKILLED on moon-splitting miracle

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]Zez, how's it going?

[00:00:02]Hey, how are you? Do you ever play Runescape, Zez?

[00:00:06]Uh not really, no. Okay, I figured I'd ask. Anyway, do you think that the universe was created?

[00:00:12]Uh yes, I do, actually. Okay, why so?

[00:00:17]Well, I am a Muslim. Okay. And I have not really seen anyone provide any evidence against Islam that is like provable, basically.

[00:00:35]So, do you think that everything in the Quran is true?

[00:00:39]Well, yes, I do. Okay. Do you think that the moon was split in half?

[00:00:44]Uh yes, I do. Okay, why didn't the Chinese see it?

[00:00:52]Well, uh I'm not sure because I wasn't there.

[00:01:00]But Well, I would have seen that. It apparently the moon was over the mountains to the east at the time, which means that the moon would have been directly overhead in China. And the Chinese were very especially during this time period, were very well known for being prodigious astronomers. They recorded all all sorts of astronomical happenings, but they didn't record the moon splitting in two?

[00:01:23]All right, well I understand your argument.

[00:01:30]I understand your argument, but can you prove that it wasn't split just because somebody has to prove >> to think that it wasn't split in two because if it was split in two, we have good reason to suspect that the Chinese would have documented it.

[00:01:44]Well, could you prove to me, regardless of Islam, regardless of all religions within the world, could you could you prove to me that the universe wasn't created? a >> pivot.

[00:01:57]But yeah, having having having sufficiently debunked literalist Islam, um, no, I don't think that this is something that we have the data to prove. Well, okay. So, I distinguish between being created and having a beginning. I think that these two things are different.

[00:02:11]Um, >> Yeah.

[00:02:13]and so, in order to say that there is a create a creation, you would need a creator, and I think that having such a creator is in tension with having uh, a beginning of time. If you have a beginning of time, then your creator can't have done anything before that, but if because there was no before that. Um, but if you couldn't have done anything that he couldn't have created it.

[00:02:32]I also think that there's a tension with uh, this creator this creator not being made of matter or not having a body made of matter because as far as we can tell, every mind that we've ever experienced, and minds are the kinds of things that do creations, uh, every mind that we've ever encountered is a mind attached to a body, and so, we are therefore positing that there exists some mind without a body, which is, you know, heavily disfavored by the inductive evidence we have access to.

[00:02:57]All right. Well, uh, listen.

[00:03:00]Uh, I understand uh, your argument when it comes to Islam. I believe in Islam because that is what I lean to, how I was brought up. Mhm. I cannot uh, artic- I cannot articulate and give you full arguments when it comes to Islam because I'm not an Islamic scholar. I'm just a believer.

[00:03:19]But, uh, based on what I'm hearing from you, these are all subjective articulations unless you have objective arguments against this that are based on evidence and facts.

[00:03:36]Do you know what inductive reasoning is?

[00:03:40]Uh, no.

[00:03:41]>> There's nothing subjective about There's nothing To be clear, there's nothing subjective about anything that I said.

[00:03:46]To be clear. Well, well, listen. How Can you prove to me that mathematics is objective?

[00:03:52]I don't I don't even know what you mean.

[00:03:54]I don't even think you know what you mean when you say that. Mathematics is a Mathematics is a game that we came up with to describe things.

[00:04:00]Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying.

[00:04:02]>> exists out there in the world separate from human intellect or perhaps alien intellect.

[00:04:07]That's what I'm saying. What I'm saying is everything is subjective, even mathematics, which is just a form of just something we came up with to help us explain the universe. It is subjective. You cannot prove that mathematics is the best form That's a category error.

[00:04:27]Yeah, but still >> You're You're You're making a mistake to say that you should be able to prove this. It's a category error.

[00:04:34]What do you mean by that? By English law >> What is a category error? What I mean is that This is Mathematics isn't an explanation.

[00:04:43]Right? Mathematics is a description.

[00:04:45]Yeah, yeah, it's a tool, a methodology. Right.

[00:04:48]So, saying that it is objectively the best way to do, like that's that's a category error.

[00:04:54]Yeah, but I didn't claim it was objective. I claimed it was subjective.

[00:04:57]You were saying you you told me you can't prove that mathematics is objectively the right way to do XYZ. That's assuming that that's something I want to do is a straw man, and supposing that that is something that one hopes to do is a category error.

[00:05:15]It's in the wrong category of things.

[00:05:17]I'm saying you cannot prove that mathematics is the best tool.

[00:05:23]>> I'm not making [clears throat] that claim. Everything That's not my claim.

[00:05:27]All right.

[00:05:28]Where did I say like I didn't say anything about that. I didn't say anything about mathematics.

[00:05:34]I know. I'm saying that even mathematics, which we use to describe everything in our universe as in science. In science, mathematics Can we Can we Can we establish the fact that mathematics is used in science to describe almost all the laws of the universe?

[00:05:53]>> Yep.

[00:05:54]Yeah. So, I'm saying even mathematics, we cannot prove that this is the best form or best methodology.

[00:06:00]>> Nobody said that it was.

[00:06:01]>> I know. So, why are you Why are you bringing it up?

[00:06:04]>> using it as an example.

[00:06:05]>> As an example of what? What's the argument that you're making?

[00:06:08]I'm The argument that I'm making is even mathematics, which we cannot prove is the best tool or methodology to explain the universe, right? Even that isn't Even with that, we cannot articulate an objective claim that the that creationism is false even through mathematics and evidence and whatever.

[00:06:29]>> using mathematics. I'm telling you the reason why I think creationism is false.

[00:06:32]I gave you the reasons that didn't require mathematics. It's just straightforward reasoning.

[00:06:38]I understand that, but what I'm saying is even through that, all you can do is articulate subjective arguments and claims based on your thoughts and opinions.

[00:06:46]>> Arguments aren't subjective.

[00:06:48]Arguments are arguments. Whether or not Whether or not they are like what the basis of those arguments are could be subjective. Like the ground The justification for various premises in those arguments can be subjective, but arguments are just strings of sentences.

[00:07:03]Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. The basis is subjective. These are thoughts you have in your mind. You have opinions.

[00:07:10]>> Yes, I do.

[00:07:10]>> Okay, can you repeat them back to me?

[00:07:13]You're saying that arguments are arguments. No, I'm talking about my actual objections to creationism that I mentioned 5 minutes ago.

[00:07:22]Did you actually pay attention to them?

[00:07:24]Which ones? You've made many.

[00:07:26]>> I made two.

[00:07:29]Yeah, but Can you repeat either of them?

[00:07:32]Uh The first argument you've you've done The first one when we first started was against Islam and and you used the the moon splitting and how the Chinese have a >> you asked me you asked me why I think creationism is false. I gave you two arguments. Do you remember what they are?

[00:07:51]I honestly didn't understand them quite clearly.

[00:07:54]>> Okay. So then how can you say that they're subjective or objective or whatever if you didn't even understand them?

[00:07:59]Well, because I didn't hear any evidence.

[00:08:03]>> You clearly didn't hear them at all.

[00:08:06]Well, could you could you please repeat them to me in simpler terms because English is not my first language as I as I said to you before.

[00:08:14]Okay, we should have just started with that rather than going down this objective subjective stuff. Okay, here's one argument.

[00:08:20]Um >> Yeah. First premise, God has a mind.

[00:08:22]Second premise, minds have either changing states or unchanging mental states. Sorry, changing mental states or unchanging mental states. A mental state is just like the way that your mind is right now.

[00:08:34]Um so we can conclude that God, having a mind, has either a changing mental state or an unchanging mental state.

[00:08:42]Now >> Okay. Uh the next premise is that change only occurs in time. This is just kind of a good definition like a fair definition of time if you will. Uh the next premise is that God exists outside of time.

[00:08:53]God is independent of time and therefore God must have an unchanging mental state.

[00:08:58]However, premise six, acting upon acting upon one's will changes one's mental state from I have the will to do X and have not done X to I have fulfilled my will of doing X.

[00:09:10]And because acting upon one's will changes one's mental state, but God has an unchanging mental state, God cannot act upon his will.

[00:09:18]Next premise is that an agent is a being that has a will and can act upon it.

[00:09:24]Therefore, God is not an agent.

[00:09:28]All right.

[00:09:29]>> God is not a thing that can take actions.

[00:09:32]All right. Uh can I can I ask you?

[00:09:35]By the way, I'm not >> or >> Yeah, yeah, I I got most of it in terms of God being an agent and whatnot, but what I I want to clarify is I'm not arguing against you.

[00:09:49]I'm trying to understand your point and and so forth. So, these conclusions that you've just illustrated Mhm.

[00:09:59]are these conclusions you've come for you've come up with yourself or is there a literature >> The conclusions logically follow from the premises.

[00:10:10]No, no, I understand, but I'm saying is this something you've uh come up with yourself or is this from literature that you've read?

[00:10:17]This is not an original argument to me.

[00:10:19]No.

[00:10:20]All right.

[00:10:21]>> This this phrasing this phrasing is original to me.

[00:10:24]Just because I'm familiar with the argument and so I wrote it down in a way that's, you know, makes makes sense to me, but this is not I I'm not the first person to ever consider the an a temporality argument against God.

[00:10:37]Well, all right.

[00:10:38]Um could you tell me could you give me some literature to read so I can understand this argument more thoroughly?

[00:10:46]There's a article on the Stanford Encyclopedia.

[00:10:49]But the arguments the arguments are pretty straightforward. Um Hold on, let me find it. Uh da da da da Uh if you go to section four of the and I know that this says eternity in Christian thought, but it's section four is not about Christianity, at least not necessarily. Um so, if you go to section four and section five, uh I guess sections four through six, I guess in the Stanford Encyclopedia article on eternity in Christian thought, then you'll find things related to what I'm referring to.

[00:11:20]Eternity of Christian thought, correct?

[00:11:22]Eternity in Christian thought.

[00:11:25]In Christian thought. All right.

[00:11:27]All right. Well, thank you very much. Uh I wasn't >> you is is there any cuz I can explain the premises if you'd like.

[00:11:37]If there was something that was confused well it was the one that was confusing to you.

[00:11:41]Well [snorts] he he speak quite fast cuz you're saying so God has premise one so premise one God has a mind agree or disagree.

[00:11:51]Yeah I I guess okay premise two minds either change or they don't change.

[00:11:59]All right okay.

[00:12:02]Change only occurs in time.

[00:12:06]All right.

[00:12:07]God exists outside of time.

[00:12:10]All right.

[00:12:11]Acting upon one's will changes one's mental state.

[00:12:16]All right.

[00:12:17]An agent is a being that has a will and can act upon it.

[00:12:22]All right those are the those are the premises if you accept all of them which you just did then you have to accept the conclusion.

[00:12:29]All right well I can't I can't accept them when I don't I was asking you which one which premises you didn't understand.

[00:12:40]No no no I understand I I assume that that meant that you had no problem with it which premise what did you have trouble with?

[00:12:47]It's not that I had trouble with them you were listening them and I was just listening to them one by one so which of those do you not understand?

[00:12:56]It's not that I do not understand so you understand them all I understand them but I must so which one do you which ones do you disagree with?

[00:13:05]>> [snorts] >> First of all the idea of God having a mind just as we we are three dimensional beings do you agree?

[00:13:14]Well four dimensional but sure.

[00:13:17]Four dimensional three dimensional whatever I don't understand how God is he's not described in a thoroughly in that kind of sense. I don't know how he exists, he how he has a mind.

[00:13:32]>> Look, what If you If you think that God doesn't have a mind, then then you're just not talking about God in the sense that anybody understands. You're just talking about like a book or some like abstract entity.

[00:13:43]>> through We're You're speaking through assumptions. God has a mind. God God doesn't have a >> God God is defined as a God is defined as a certain kind of being with a mind.

[00:13:53]That's That's just what God is. That's just how it's defined. If you don't think that God has a mind, then you're just not talking about a being that has thoughts.

[00:14:01]That has a will. That can do That can take actions.

[00:14:05]Why must he have a mind to come up with thoughts? Because thoughts exist within minds. That's what thought That's where thoughts are. Thoughts are in minds.

[00:14:12]Yeah, within the within humans, within all living organisms.

[00:14:17]>> So, a mind is just the kind of thing that can have thoughts.

[00:14:23]Well, how do you know that God God has thoughts?

[00:14:26]>> How do you know? If God doesn't Does Does God have a will?

[00:14:29]Because a mind is also the kind of thing that can have a will.

[00:14:33]Well, how do you know uh How do you know just because a mind can have a will God God must have a mind? A mind is the kind of thing that can have a will.

[00:14:46]Yes, but what How do you know that >> You're forcing human >> just defining like a mind is the kind of thing that can have thoughts and wills and desires and Yes, a mind can be a >> That's just what a mind is.

[00:15:00]A mind So, a mind is defined as something that has a will. It's A mind is defined as the kind of thing that can have thoughts and a will and desires.

[00:15:11]And I'm sure there's other things that I can't think of right now, but So, yes, we established the fact that a mind can have these things.

[00:15:19]>> that's not what I said. A mind is the kind of thing that does have those things.

[00:15:24]Yes, a mind is the kind of thing that does have those things.

[00:15:27]>> so if something has a mind, it so so we're just saying that look what what we're calling a mind is the kind of thing that has a will and can have thoughts and perhaps can have desires. If it has those things then that is what a mind is.

[00:15:43]All right.

[00:15:48]All right, but we're still we still haven't established the fact where how you prove the creator is forced forced within our rules and our premises. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:16:03]Either God has a mind or not. If God doesn't have a mind then it's not a creator because creations are done by minds.

[00:16:13]Well, that is an assumption in itself.

[00:16:14]>> It's not an assumption. It's just what It's just what it means for a thing to be a creation. A creation is an intentional act of construction perhaps or a creational act of beginning of a thing beginning to exist and intentions intentions require mental states and mental states require minds.

[00:16:31]Things have been created without without Without without >> without intention.

[00:16:38]It's not a creation.

[00:16:40]If there's no intention If there's no intention involved at all in the beginning of a thing existing then it's not a creation.

[00:16:47]What you think you can accidentally create something? No, you just You can accidentally produce something perhaps, but not You can't accidentally create something.

[00:16:55]A creation A creation There's a reason why the word creation and creativity are related.

[00:17:00]All right.

[00:17:04]Well, look.

[00:17:05]When it comes to When it comes to all of this, when you're using definitions, this is the definition of this, this is the definition of that. Who have come up with those definitions of those things?

[00:17:19]Yeah, exactly. We do. Yeah, words mean things.

[00:17:23]How can you say that all these definitions that we've come up with are objective and That's a category. Our definitions aren't objective. Language is a construct made by humans.

[00:17:34]Yeah. Definitions are just what we mean when we say words.

[00:17:37]So, when we say when we say God, we mean a kind of entity with a mind that is in some way responsible for the origins of the universe as as a foundation of the universe. That's what we mean by the word God. When we say a mind, what we mean is the kind of thing that can have a will or perhaps has a thought or perhaps has desires. It's that It's the kind of thing that has those.

[00:18:00]When we mean When we mean a mental state, we mean the state of affairs of a mind.

[00:18:05]That's just what we mean when we say these words.

[00:18:08]So, this is not This is not a question of objective whatever.

[00:18:12]We have Words have meanings. When we say those words, they mean things. And so, if you believe that God has a mind, that means something.

[00:18:20]And if you So, if if we can derive logically what follows from that meaning.

[00:18:29]Well, well, look.

[00:18:32]How can you How can you say that these rules apply to >> What rules? We're not talking about rules. We're talking about what words mean.

[00:18:41]I know. I know. But, you you're I'm When I say rules, I mean when you say if a mind if a mind has a will, then it must uh when it enacts upon that will, then there is a change in that mind and so forth from what I'm understanding from you.

[00:18:58]>> Mhm. How do you know these things apply to a a being that is inconceivable to us in a in a higher dimension, in a higher whatever, not in the same plane of view as us humans. How do you know that your hands exist?

[00:19:19]My hands exist [clears throat] because I see them.

[00:19:22]How do you know it's not just an illusion?

[00:19:24]How do you know that this that that you're not just a brain in an incomprehensible universe and your brain is just being fed external input from a computer hooked up to your, you know, your opt your optical cortex or whatever. Like words just mean things. We we mean certain things by words and then we can use those words to understand and to form and to come to conclusions about the way the about the way the things that we're describing are.

[00:19:49]Well, could you could you tell me how you believe the the universe came to be?

[00:19:53]I don't know if the universe had a beginning.

[00:19:56]It's not my claim.

[00:19:59]You're just claiming that That it wasn't created. Yes. That it wasn't created.

[00:20:07]Well, I don't see how you could prove it wasn't created and how you could prove it was created.

[00:20:14]>> just give an argument that shows that if God has a mind and is timeless, then God is not an agent.

[00:20:22]An agent and in order to create something you have to be an agent because you have to be able to act upon your will.

[00:20:27]Your will to create in particular.

[00:20:29]So, God could If God has a mind and God exists outside of time, is timeless, then God cannot be the creator of the universe cuz God not God cannot be the creator of anything.

[00:20:42]All right. Well, thank you for your time.

[00:20:46]Uh I will leave read what you gave me.

[00:20:50]Does that literature you gave me from the Stanford Encyc- Encyclopedia cover that? It's not It's not the It's not that exact argument, but it'll get you the ideas.

[00:20:59]All right. Well, thank you very much.

[00:21:01]Thanks for being here, says.

[00:21:03]Yeah.

[00:21:04]Doctor Clark the quantum of faith.

[00:21:07]the mind of lightning quick and fierce, he shatters limits, breaks through fears.