What Is Happening With Gen Z? |

[00:00:00]Essentially, what we've got now is a meaning crisis. [music] Gen Z's are struggling with meaning and purpose.

[00:00:05]What is the purpose of being alive? Why is my life meaningful? I mean, the age-old question of like, isn't there more to life than this? You know, like if you remove God, there's a [music] massive vacuum, >> a God-shaped vacuum, and some ugly things have started to fill that vacuum.

[00:00:26]Welcome to another podcast uh as we're going to be looking at subjects that can really try to help the church around the world grapple her way through the various things that are coming at her or theology. And we've really had a great time just doing these. And today we're going to cover a subject that is I think going to be very helpful for us as churches, as individuals, as leaders as we grapple with multigenerational churches. Yeah. You know, churches are filled now with people ranging from, you know, people late in their 90s through every generation right down to teens and and uh and in that sense, every one of these cultures comes with a unique worldview, a unique framework of processing what's happening in the world. And in some ways as leaders we've got this real challenge of trying to engage all and bring bring the gospel to each and everyone each demographic so that we can see churches reflecting the fullness of our culture. And so one of the subjects on this is Gen Z which is really a young the youngest generation coming into our churches ranging from early teens to maybe late 20s. and they're coming with a very unique world view, a very unique understanding of the world of truth and trying to find their way through. And so this is going to be a series with Luke Hull, which I'll introduce now as we try and begin to engage this uh understand some of the challenges and also some of the incredible opportunities that we could have as we engage each and every culture and each and every tribe to bring it into the kingdom of our God. And so it's great to have Luke Holly with us. Luke has been an elder with us now for how long has it been?

[00:02:04]>> It's about 12 years.

[00:02:05]>> You you grew up in the church actually.

[00:02:07]>> Yeah. His dad had been a pastor leading a church before we came in. And so Luke literally came in. I think you were how 12 years old >> when I came into the church. I was probably in high school. I was probably in grade 11. I was about 16.

[00:02:20]>> And it's been beautiful watching him grow from a a young man just grappling with truth and becoming a real ambassador for truth. And it's been lovely watching just Yeah. how you've uh you've grown, Luke. Your mind is brilliant. Uh it's going to be great.

[00:02:33]I'm going to be interviewing you more on this because Luke, you are in a unique situation and have a real love of the subject primarily because of the situation you're in and why don't you tell us or just a little bit about that.

[00:02:45]Yeah. So, I I was at a university in Cape Town. Uh I did some post-graduate studies there. I studied actually to become a school teacher in the end.

[00:02:52]Spent about four years at UC. Uh and then the L in the Lord's sort of sense of humor uh I ended up leading now a congregation in Cape Town and I still and I have a lot of students from UCT now in my congregation. So I've kind of seen the whole circle. Uh and what's been interesting for me is just the the change in the way the world talks about God, talks about religion, talks about you know the things that matter in this life. Um, and the thing that's been quite crazy for me is to see how the conversation has changed so radically.

[00:03:23]Even at the university where I was at, but I think more than that, even in the world, I'm seeing the way that people talk about God has changed. And that's obviously quite relevant for me because uh I lead a church where there's a lot of Gen Z's. Uh, I often joke that like I don't speak Gen Z, but I understand it fluently. [laughter] And so I'm actually quite excited for this podcast because even for my own congregation, I think it's going to be super interesting and engaging.

[00:03:52]>> Yeah.

[00:03:52]>> Yeah. So those are some of the reasons why I'm interested in this in this topic. You definitely are in the heart of um >> I mean I know Cape Town is kind of a microcosm in some ways of the world.

[00:04:02]You've got Africa and you've got the West kind of merged and and UCT the university or college that you guys are reaching is arguably one of the most liberal probably in the world definitely in Africa uh but high highly esteemed with highly intelligent young people coming uh from all over the world actually not even just from Africa and so you in the heart of it in the thick of it and so I'm keen to hear just how you dive in. what started you kind of noticing this new trend and and what got you interested in uh in the subject?

[00:04:33]Yeah, so like I say, I have a lot of conversations with Gen Z's every week asking me lots of questions about the world, about our country, about Jesus, about the Bible, about religion. And I I started to notice that the questions they were asking were very different kind of questions to the questions I was asking. And also the people around me were asking um when I was at at at university it was the the peak of what was what we call the new atheist movement. So John uh not John Dawkins Richard Dawkins and his Bible basically the God delusion you know has kind of really set the tone for how people spoke about God which was essentially in very sneering uh like mocking tones. So the conversations about God were very very difficult when I was at university because um people who were religious of of any religious religion were basically thought of as being stupid as being ignorant as being very small-minded, close-minded. And so the conversation about God was really a no-go area and was very difficult to be a Christian in that kind of context. Um my college professors would often treat me in a very patronizing, condescending uh sort of scornful way. I remember being publicly mocked for example uh when I was at college for my views and now I'm chatting to to people who are varsity going collegegoing age and the conversation is completely different. Um there's a generation that are quite open to spirituality and I've seen this strange turn of events where actually the people who are thought of as being close-minded and stupid are people who are atheists.

[00:06:18]>> Wow. [laughter] It's amazing.

[00:06:19]>> So I guess that was the reason for me looking into like what is actually going on with Gen Z, you know, like what what is going on? I and so but it's been very encouraging actually for me how the conversation has changed and people are talking about God in a whole different kind of way. We were talking about this yesterday about actually it's it's starting to become cool to be spiritually curious. Totally.

[00:06:40]>> Uh even on podcasts and things like that in the world, it's become quite cool to get Christian apologists and experts on on your podcast and start asking them about Christianity. And so for me, I mean, I know maybe I sound like an old person to say that. It's like quite bizarre. It makes your head spin.

[00:06:56]>> It is. Even movie stars now, every movie star is saying, "I'm a Christian. You know, my life was terrible and now I'm a Christian." And it it's becoming like every influence in society is now presenting Christianity in a very different way. So it's a fascinating fascinating shift. Um and uh again it's a shift that probably the world changes quickly.

[00:07:15]I mean you're talking now I remember the Richard Dawkins era and Christianity has gone from like you say this kind of really you must be an imbecile to believe in this higher thing and now it's becoming trendy to do that and that that is a massive shift and it changes the way in some ways we even need to bring the gospel to a culture because if we don't understand what people are needing to uh to understand to appropriate or to to to to see what's true we're going to be giving them the wrong medicine. It's like we and so I I do think that for us as leaders this is a very important conversation because we are having this generation coming in um and how do we engage them and so one of the questions then is what do you think's happened you know this is a big shift you're talking a seismic shift that probably would have taken centuries before has happened literally in like less than 10 years and it's obviously there's a number of things around us the internet and stuff like that but what are some of the cultural things that you think have really helped this massive swing and and formed a generation now that is just seeing everything so different from even just a generation of 10 years ago.

[00:08:22]>> It almost feels like we've we've witnessed a huge experiment. The experiment of like what if we're all just very materialistic? We just see the world as just, you know, moving parts, atoms, you know, the whole Dawkins view of the world like we're dancing, we're dancing to our own DNA. Uh, you know, there's nothing more than what you see.

[00:08:42]And that whole experiment has now played itself out and people realized at some point you just can't live like that.

[00:08:48]>> Yeah.

[00:08:49]>> There's more to us as humans. Yeah.

[00:08:51]>> Uh and and so you're saying effectively that okay, everyone dives in. This is the new truth. We're all going to do it.

[00:08:57]Everyone follows that truth and after a number of years starts to suddenly feel like that scripture that says there's a way that seems right to a man but the ender of his death. And suddenly you get to the end of that road. It feels like it's a really exciting road. And suddenly you're going this sucks. This is terrible. this not this is not promising what I thought and so it opens up the door for what is truth then where is truth that's effectively what you what you're saying >> there's a couple of notable examples of particular personalities who almost like went along that whole journey but they're kind of the story of a whole generation but essentially what we've got now is a meaning crisis genz's are struggling with meaning and purpose like okay like why what is the purpose of being alive like why is my life meaningful you know uh is isn't I mean the age-old question of like isn't there more to life than this you know like materialism fa failed us but I think also what's happened is like many people have famously said like if you remove God >> there's a massive vacuum >> a god-shaped vacuum and other things begin to fill that vacuum and so some ugly things have started to fill that vacuum and uh so and that is in various different spheres so so for example if you look at universities what replaced God in universities. It's like activism, >> identity, politics, activist issues. Now, those issues may or may not be important, but if you make them god, things just get very weird and messed up. And so we've seen a couple of a long period of time now where like various forms of activism and identity politics have just ripped the world apart and left people feeling very dazed and confused and um Gen Z's are the are the kind of fallout of that they many of them are feeling like what is my identity? Where do I find my identity? How do I find my purpose? How do I find truth? How do I navigate my way through a world that is very um fluid, very uh everchanging?

[00:10:58]Um I mean even the whole I mean talk about identity. Even like the whole conversation about sexuality, it's defined by the word fluidity. Almost everything is defined by the word fluidity. And but the problem is you can't live in such a fluid world because it's so unstable. You need something to stand on, something to hold on to, something that you can know.

[00:11:17]>> This is true. This is good. This is right. This is what this is a reason to live. And that was what God was, right?

[00:11:23]That God is all of those things. Jesus is all of those things.

[00:11:27]>> And so now you're looking for a generation that's looking for something solid. And I think of Jesus, you know, he says, you know, build your if you build your house on sand, when the storms come, your house falls flat, you know, and and in many ways, we've seen people's lives and societies fall flat.

[00:11:42]just into just fall apart and and the age-old words of Jesus, you know, build your life on me, you'll find the rock and you'll have security. And I think that we're there's a generation now looking for security, looking for stability. And the beautiful thing about this, Andrew, is like we have all the answers in the sense of like just that's what Jesus is. That's what the church is. In the church, you find community.

[00:12:04]You find belonging. You find identity in Christ.

[00:12:07]>> So that's what I think is so exciting about this whole conversation. It's quite it's interesting you know in some ways I was thinking [sighs and gasps] I remember once realizing there was a saying you know God formed science and so we learn about God through science and this was initially what scientists did but then at some point the belief in evolution and the belief in a number of other things pops in and and science starts to point at God and say no we are actually God science is God or or the the understanding of science is God and so we we put God out you know and so all your big scientists Dawkins and others are saying, well, it's it's a fairy tale. It's like it's simple people didn't really understand the truth. But in in in in science saying God is dead, which is effectively what happened.

[00:12:50]>> Um, science now is trying to provide morality and an anchor for society, but science can't do that. All that science can do is see observable things and try to draw some conclusion from it. And because science won't acknowledge God as a creator, it's finding other ways. But without God as an undergirling, the entire thing that holds society together, morality, right, wrong, family, good, bad, all gets up for grabs. And so you you end up in a generation that's just which is the pregeneration. It's not this, it's not Gen Z. It's more our generation ends up with um okay, well then anything goes.

[00:13:26]And so let's gender fluidity, what's right, what's wrong, what's what's justice, what's not justice. And we we end up with a world that's just tearing itself apart. Families are tearing apart. The the order of you know husbands and wives is broken. Kids are treated as adults and they still kids.

[00:13:44]And so they and so you just have this meltdown which is I think effectively happened. And then you had the I think for me the breakdown of um the breakdown of authority. You know longer is a dad the head of the house. Um families are dissolving. Dad's not there. Kids growing up without a dad. And so they're trying to find meaning. They're trying to find purpose. Government fails. COVID and all those things make well we can't trust government.

[00:14:09]>> Church fails with with uh you know scandal after scandal after scandal. Um and so eventually everything that seems to be securing and holding society together is lost and you end up with a generation that's absolutely insecure not knowing actually what's right or wrong, up or down, left or right. And that's really what we're now seeing, isn't it? That's Gen Z. It's >> it's devastating. Yeah, >> it's and it's a it's a it's a culture that that >> is trying to find what is right and I want to know for myself because I don't know how to trust anything outside of myself because everything outside seems like it failed. So I've got to go back internally and try and understand this for myself. Could you >> Yeah. So there's there's a great story of a particular individual which tells the whole tale in a in a in a in a personal way because you can talk about it like at a societal level but you can talk about it at an individual level.

[00:14:57]There's a woman that I was telling you about. Her name is Ayan Hersi Ali. She she was a political uh asylum from Ethiopia. She was a Muslim. She was raised in a Muslim family.

[00:15:07]>> Uh they tried to set her up with a husband, an arranged marriage and she wasn't interested and so she had to escape basically to another country to escape the marriage [laughter] and they took her in as an asylum in in the Netherlands and she studied at uh college and she was a very very educated woman. ended up uh become became an activist uh trying to explain Islam in a very pluralistic society and and she started speaking in parliament and she became a leading light for the new atheist movement. So she was very very close with Richard Dawkins and co very close they were like brothers and sisters almost and then she had a crisis. So this crisis that you were talking about now she had a full-on existential crisis. Um her world [clears throat] started falling apart and it was to do with questions of meaning, purpose like what do I have to live for? Um and so she she started be becoming addicted to alcohol and I'm not sure what else she got addicted to. So she became an alcoholic. She started going to therapy. She went to from therapist to therapist to therapist.

[00:16:07]>> So she's one of the great minds, one of the greatest, wasn't she? One of the four horses of the >> Yeah. So So there was the four horsemen of the new atheist movement. She wasn't one of them, but she was very closely associated with them.

[00:16:18]>> Um and one of their their their champions, you know. Um also like her story told the story of the new atheist movement, which is religion is bad.

[00:16:27]>> Religion is evil. Religion is what is wrong with the world. And obviously because of her story, she was like living evidence of that. Like I was a Muslim. They tried to marry me to this guy. I didn't want to be married. There were other atrocities, >> oppressiveness of rel of religion and >> everything that Dawkins was trying to say. She was the poster child. So then she had a crisis of faith. She didn't know it was a crisis of faith and she was going to different therapists and her uh her her rehab her therapist helping her to kick to to kick the bottle uh eventually said to her, "You know what, Ayan, I can't actually help you because you have a spiritual problem."

[00:17:00]>> She he said to her, "You are spiritually bankrupt. I can't help you. you don't need therapy, you need to fix your spiritual bankruptcy, which is obviously very offensive to her. She didn't want to hear that. But she realized something of truth in that. And so she went away and she started asking the question like, "Do I have a spiritual problem?"

[00:17:16]So eventually she got on her knees before the Lord and she cried out to God. You know that classic, Lord, if you're real, >> reveal yourself to me. And he did.

[00:17:25]>> Wow.

[00:17:25]>> He revealed himself to her. It was obviously a slowly dawning light. She found hope again. She found meaning. She found uh you know a sense of a reason to live and slowly she started growing in her faith. Uh but that sent shock waves through the entire world. I mean through the whole new a they're post a child >> for how the world should be suddenly betrayed them turned on them and so then she started getting very outspoken about the fact that the new atheist movement has left the world spiritually bankrupt.

[00:17:57]And so she describes the universities.

[00:17:59]She she describes her own life. She basically says, "You took something away from the world, but you didn't replace it with anything. You took God away from the world, but what have you given the world? What reason to live? What sense of purpose? What sense of meaning and identity have you given the world?

[00:18:13]People can't live like that."

[00:18:15]>> Um, so she's a beautiful like personal story that I really love that in some ways has told the story of the transition between gener generations, you know.

[00:18:26]>> That's fascinating. you know, and in some way she literally does become a poster child, not of of an entire generation. Yeah. Because that is where this generation is. They've been sold a lie effectively.

[00:18:37]>> I think you know, we grew up with Judeo-Christian values >> and even though you weren't maybe a Christian, you kind of believe that the Bible was the word of God and you know, kind of a good book to live your life by even if you weren't actually an active follower of Christ. But with that gone and then without that undergirling, it's almost like the gra the Bible talks about or theologians talk about prevent grace that God leaves in society. It's like the a semblance of him the still inside of all of us, you know, and so with that gone, >> there's no longer a definition of what love is. There's no longer a definition of what's good or bad. Everything is up for grabs. And so you suddenly find even political parties. It's interesting what seeing here in the United States, Republicans and Democrats, and they each are arguing from the moral high ground and and each one thinks it's it's reflecting Christ better. And it's so fascinating realizing that you you you thinking you're pointing to the same God, but actually you're applying it's such a mess now. We don't even know what is right and wrong anymore. And I think it's it's created probably a deep hunger inside of a generation now who in some ways are like a ship without an anchor drifting through the sea watching shipwrecks all around them and going how do I survive this? How do I find meaning? How do I find so? So so what kind of things are there that that can be helpful for us who are trying to reach this generation? What are the kind of things that we've got to be aware of and maybe things that we can start building bridges with them? Have you applied your mind there at all?

[00:20:05]>> Yeah. So I think the the exciting part about the story is that you've got a whole generation that are very spiritually curious.

[00:20:11]>> Yeah.

[00:20:12]>> Uh the the the challenging part about the the generation that is is the way that they seek truth is so different to previous generations. They're very skeptical of authority. And so they won't go and ask a pastor. They won't go to church to find the answers. They go online >> to find the answers. They they go on to YouTube. they go on to >> and do you think this is because of a lack of trust of institution or authority? So in some ways I look every authority's failed my my parents are divorced my my world is a mess I need to find like I don't know I don't know where to look so I've got to look inward basically and try and find and understand myself also I think in some ways it's a generation that's grown up online so that's the environment where they feel familiar that's where they generally go for answers I mean if you think about it now we joking about this yesterday but like when you when you you have a silly question like you know uh how should I do my hair you know you go and chaty you know, it's just like instinctive now. So, so, so that's true for smaller questions, but also true of bigger questions like who is God? Like, uh what about Christianity? Where did Christianity come from? Which religion is the true religion? So, you've got a whole generation that are pursuing truth online >> and that that presents opportunities for us as a church, but it also presents challenges because uh it's a generation that's looking for truth online. And that's quite a terrifying thought because the online world is there's a lot of good stuff but there's a lot of also very deceptive stuff. So whilst they're very spiritually open and curious, >> they're not necessarily turning to Christianity.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah.

[00:21:43]>> Uh they they're pursuing spiritual things and that could lead them almost anywhere.

[00:21:47]>> Anywhere. Yeah.

[00:21:48]>> Um that's a trend I've definitely seen.

[00:21:51]It's like everything, you know, we grew up it was you're a Christian >> or you're a Catholic or you were an atheist, you know, and or you're a Muslim or something when now it's like this hybridized a little bit of everything. It's it's interesting. We carry on. I'm butting in.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah. So, like there's this kind of DIY spirituality where you kind of piece together whatever you find online that really resonates with you and you kind of piece together your own religion.

[00:22:16]There might be bits of Christianity in that. There might be a bit of the new age involved in that. Uh there's something called uh new thought spirituality, but Jenz's won't know that phrase. But what they'll will know is words like manifesting. Uh and it's kind of the power of the mind. There's this idea that you know through your mind you can shape reality. It's a very newagy concept. And so there's this kind of newagy spirituality that's trending. And then sometimes people mix that in with Christianity. So I've experienced that even within my own congregation.

[00:22:47]Somebody sounds like a Christian, they talk like a Christian, they act like a Christian, and then they start saying strange newagy sort of things. And that's a product of like this new world of spiritually open and curious, but they don't necessarily uh just want traditional Christianity, like tell me what Jesus said, what does the Bible say? They're open to all sorts of kinds of spirituality.

[00:23:10]>> It's interesting. Um, something I've noticed here in California and and California is ahead of the curve. They say California sneezes and America catches a cold and America sneezes and the world catches a cold or the Western world at least.

[00:23:24]>> So, one something I'm noticing is a people with a loss of boundaries. Like we grew up in a um in a culture that was very Judeo-Christian with right and wrong. Parents had authority. There was corporal punishment. uh we grew up with you know you know basically your parents formed your personality they formed your feelings we were taught that doesn't matter what you feel you're going to do the right thing and there's consequence if you don't but it's been so interesting to me and I know this is another subject but I wonder if this isn't playing into it somewhat as society has increasingly outlawed corporal punishment uh uh you know parents being able to actually put boundaries and even consequences on their children are very much freed to almost be treated as adults long before they have the the the the proper understanding to do that. And so and again, mom and dad not being there, often more involved in their careers, just paying kids to go to. So kids grow up without a sense of uh anyone forming them. And I think what that does is they then start to um live based upon what they feel. And so it becomes a feelings-based uh and and it it it if it if it feels right to me, then it must be right. It's got to sit with me. And I and I wonder if that isn't even playing out into the somewhat in the sense of uh dealing with people and trying to help them change because they've got really bad habits and you're trying to pass them through their things, but they keep falling back into a feelings-based well.

[00:24:47]It's almost like they can't use logic to to temper their own personality and to temper their decisions. They are captive. They're almost slaves to their emotions. and then finding online what makes them feel good. Yes. And it's that scripture where where we read in the end times there'll be a generation who will gather teachers to tell them what their itchy ear is want to hear. I I want to I want to find people that will that will feed me what I want and they end up then forming a religion or forming a Christianity or forming whatever around their own self. And in some ways it the danger of it is is probably that we end up with then me being again like God taking aspects of different as you know maybe even different >> forms of God um and bringing it into this hybridized faith that's mine. Would that be a danger that you would see?

[00:25:35]>> Yeah. I think I mean the the the phrase that expresses that like quite succinctly for me is the phrase like I could never believe in a god like that.

[00:25:45]>> Yeah. which is an interesting phrase because it's it's kind of like well you could never believe in a god like that.

[00:25:52]So if he was a different kind of god you could believe in that god because he more aligns with you how you are and how you think.

[00:26:00]>> That's not the way to decide whether to believe on in god or not. You can't find a god that >> that reflects you well and then say okay well I can believe in a god like that.

[00:26:11]He either is god or he isn't. And you need to we need to seek God >> uh first and foremost and then find out what what what kind of a person is he like what is he like and if he's the origin of of of all things including myself if he made me if he made the world >> then it's not a case of I could never believe in a god like that it's a case of okay well how has he revealed himself to me you know what does the Bible have to say about the nature and character of God and that is going to pose some challenges because I'm going to find certain things about the nature of God that are quite different to me and his ways that are quite different to mine.

[00:26:44]And I can't at that point say, "Okay, well, I could never believe in a God like that." It's a case of, okay, well, maybe I've got some things to learn about life and about truth and about how God made me and how I fit into the world.

[00:26:56]>> I also think you mentioned like the parenting thing. I think um a very very open parenting style does produce insecurity.

[00:27:04]>> It does >> and anxiety. Uh we need both freedom and we need guidance and boundaries. And I think getting the balance of those two things right is very important as parents because you can actually raise very insecure children by giving them too much freedom. And I know that sounds like a paradox, but you know to be you know that too. True. It's true. Yeah. If you don't grow up knowing where your boundaries are, you're never secure. And I think parents are there to give boundaries and foundations that children can eventually build their lives upon.

[00:27:32]That's the beauty of being a parent is I get to form the foundations of this young life and teach them the things that hopefully I know that are true. And if they're true and good, you're building on the rock. They can build beautiful lives with secure and the storms can come and they can stand. But if they don't have that rock in place, if they're just going to try and build as a as a young child, not understanding truth, not understanding and forming their own things, you end up with this childlike structure that the slightest breeze comes and falls apart. And so it actually creates a massive instability and insecurity. And I think that's been one of the demonic strategies that the devil has used as he's gone at cor at parents authority, parents responsibilities, you know, across the world. Now we're seeing things like corporal punishment becoming outlawed, etc., etc. And it's actually the devil's way of destroying a generation. I think it's a demonic strategy and it's and it and it's it closed itself in light, well, you know, it makes it look like it's abusive, but it's it's not. Loving loving loving boundaries in any society are what keep society alive and healthy.

[00:28:32]You take those away like defund the police is the same spirit. You want to defund the police that was just recently a big what what can you imagine? It's going to be Mad Max. Then anyone with the biggest gun is going to be the king.

[00:28:45]You have to have order in society and it creates stability and I think a generation that has lost some of those things. They've lost, you know, again lost faith in government, parents, church. So now they're trying to find their way through for themselves. So what do they do? How are they trying to find you know truth and meaning and how do we how do we engage that? How do we reach that?

[00:29:06]>> So the one extreme is the one I've mentioned is like the DIY religion like the sort of do it yourself make your own religion find the stuff that resonates with you and live that out to the best of your your ability. That's hyper freedom. Yeah. On the other extreme, you see some Gen Z's going to like literally to the opposite extreme and trying to find versions of Christianity that are actually very structured, very ordered, very uh author authority orientated streams like the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, which is very ritualbased, a lot of order, a lot of stability. Uh, and it sort of those churches market themselves as being like the church that hasn't changed for 2000 original. Yeah. The church that hasn't changed for 2,000 years. And that really appeals to many Gen Z's because finally I find something >> that represents the truth that hasn't changed for 2,000 years. And I'm living in a shifting world where people, you know, even gender is fluid. I'm looking for something where I can found my life upon that's solid, that's secure, that's old, that's been tried and tested, that hasn't changed, and it has a strong allure. So, we're seeing now this trend amongst Gen Z's to head towards old churches. They call it >> they call it the smells and bells like appeal, you know, with the churches that are they just look old. Even the clothing that they wear looks old and um and so that that really caught me off guard as well as >> like that trend. [clears throat] I think we'll probably talk about that more a little bit in another podcast, but it is something that I've I've noticed. So there's these two extremes. Hyper freedom on the one side, do it yourself religion and on the other hand like uh very um almost pedantic in the sense of this is how you live live your life.

[00:30:47]This is these are all the rules. If you live like this, you you're in the truth and you'll be safe and it gives people a sense of security. So in other words, effectively what's happening then is and I would say a large part of Gen Z is doing this is um probably initially initially diving into okay I'm I'm I'm abandoning everything of what my parents and everyone else did.

[00:31:11]>> That didn't work. I'm going to try and find this for myself. And then they're looking for the most stable secure thing they can find because everything else has seemed to be unstable and has collapsed or been poked holes at. So, I want to go back to and and the the safest thing I can find is well, a church that's 2,000 years old that hasn't changed, which it actually has, but that's how it presents itself. Your Eastern Orthodox, I mean, I am amazed.

[00:31:33]We came out of those churches and and we were like, man, that those were dead churches. We came into life in Christ.

[00:31:41]And now people are streaming from what we would call alive churches because of I think the heavy attack upon those churches that's happening and streaming back towards what we would have called historically dead churches. We would have said those churches, you know, are so stuck in tradition that they don't even have the presence of God anymore.

[00:31:57]But people are now finding the presence of God in a hymn. I I saw somebody recently talk about how they'd gone from a charismatic church where music was more contemporary and, you know, kind of more like a loveydovey kind of relational thing with God. and they went to a church where there was old hymns being sung and it was old language and old music and they felt so free. They felt such a presence in that place. It felt like they had finally come home because they felt so safe and secure.

[00:32:22]It's interesting for me. I I was listening to that and thinking you're actually misunderstanding. You're misunderstanding the presence of God for security. And so this feels safe because it feels old. And so now new feels bad because it's probably going to it's un it's shakable. But this old thing is a safe place. And so this the human soul starts to misinterpret what I think happens misinterpret uh stability for the eternal one >> and going oh this is where God is because I feel safe here. And it's it's in some ways a tragedy because you're going into something that actually very often to my mind and I think to yours probably as well has a form of Christianity in it but it's an outward form. doesn't it denies the the renewing the power the presence of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide but it's been it's been in some ways the devil's strategy against this generation to get them almost right what is that the Bible said the angel of darkness masquerades as an angel of light and so he comes in what seems as good and presents himself to try and take each and every generation captive and our cap our generation was captive to other things this generation is now being taken captive to to potentially things that have a form of godliness >> but again and a denying of the power thereof which is again a warning of the end times. I mean you is your brain kind of wiring that way as well.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah. I mean I think remember that phrase with Jesus you know on this rock I will build my church. The question is what is the rock you know and so the rock is a revelation of Jesus. You Jesus is the rock. When when Jesus talk about, you know, building your house upon the rock, he's talking about himself, you know, and his ways and and his, you know, the the the life that is found only in him >> and the life that is found in living out, you know, according to his wisdom.

[00:34:06]>> Um, so but now obviously the Catholic Church represents itself. It that's how it markets itself as the rock, you know, the the the the Petrine succession.

[00:34:15]>> Peter, you're the rock and I'm going to build you.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah. So they mistake the rock as being Jesus. I mean Peter Peter Peter is the rock and then every successing successive pope after Peter is kind of that thing which the church is built upon. But actually so so I get the heart to look for security. I understand that and I can see the appeal to go to something that's old.

[00:34:34]>> But actually I think my message would be to this generation the Gen Z is that Jesus Jesus is the rock. You know everything that you need is found in Christ. Totally.

[00:34:43]>> Um and that is good news. you know that is such good news like that that instability that insecurity that anxiety you can find the rock in in Jesus you know so so find a church where Jesus is preached >> where the real Jesus is preached uh where there's a disciplehip in his ways and you will find the security that your soul is is looking for and I don't think it's just genzies that suffer with anxiety and insecurity but I mean are we talking about jenz's this morning >> it's fascinating um there there's a shakeup at the moment. I mean uh one of the things I know you've also been grappling with this cuz we've had some conversations over the last you know few months uh but uh of how I think the world historically for even for us I would imagine you here too in some ways every camp formed itself into a very isolated click like you would have this group within the Protestant church Calvinist or Arminion or and cessationist and they would they would and and then you would even have your Orthodox church or your Catholic church and you know Historically, uh, you know, because it's old doesn't mean that it's good. Uh, the Galatians in one generation went from they started in the spirit, they ended in the flesh. Who's bewitch you? You've lost Christ in one generation. So, the fact that a church is 2,000 years old doesn't give us any security that it's still with Christ. It it might have started, but it doesn't mean it we can drift in one generation.

[00:36:07]But I think one of the challenges for me is uh we have historically um maybe not we use straw man arguments to sometimes make the other side look stupid and I do think one of the things that's good out of what's happening at the moment is uh a grappling with oh is that true actually and I've even been grappling with some of the things that I was taught in Protestant thinking that um I would have just you know well it's Protestant it must be true you know it's it's and and I've I've been grappling at times with certain aspects of, for example, the Orthodox Church or probably more than the Roman Catholic because I think the Roman Catholic church is for me as I read the scriptures that's more compromised than the Orthodox Church.

[00:36:46]That said, there's some things that I think as Protestants we have not grappled with enough, you know, and I think some of those churches, I think they get it wrong as I grapple with it, but I think we equally are getting it wrong as Protestants. And it's almost like this open this suddenly, okay, we need to revisit these things has actually been helpful in some ways. It's like almost like what the devil plans for bad, God works in all things for the good. And I think it's causing the church to begin to go, >> okay, hang on.

[00:37:15]>> Is that actually right? Um and and it's it's making us dig deeper. It's making us search harder. It's making us revisit. There's a danger in that that you can drift because you're you're in some ways we can drift into dangerous places. But at the same time, I think like for example with the breaking of bread, >> yes, >> I think the classic Protestant line on breaking of bread and what that means is it's just a symbol. I think we've missed something. I think there's actually Orthodoxy has the Orthodox churches have kept something of the mystery better or even grace and it's working. I I do think that Protestants land it better than Orthodox churches do. But actually, there's aspects of the Orthodox faith that I think Protestants have lost. And it's almost like for me, we need to try and merge some of these things a bit better than we have because I think Protestantism has fallen short in some areas um in its understanding of grace and faith and we and it's I think there's there's there's some good stretches that are happening which I'm hoping this generation will actually help it actually help every generation potentially get it right. But it's only if it cannot build out of its own brokenness and actually find uh and and find and and I think find people that are going to be teaching the word of God properly and at some point give trust because I don't I don't believe it's really possible for individuals on their own to find truth. I don't think it's the way God intends us to find truth. I think he has established his church with elders with leaders who are to teach those and you know Matthew 28 he raises leaders to teach another generation and if that generation thinks it can just teach itself it's going to get it very wrong. It's not the way of God. It's like it's like God designed parents to train up children and if you take away parents and say well children can just do it by themselves you're going to have really mess even a more messed up society. What we need to do is we need to come back to good parents and what are good parents and how do they look and how do they what does God define a good parent is and then good parents helping raise a generation through are you on the same page as >> yeah it it almost feels like you've been describing the chronic lack of parenthood in a lot of different ways >> and it's almost like we need to come we need to find what's true and God's authority and that and that first of all starts with his word the scriptures >> so we need to grapple with is the Bible true? Is it God's revealed word? Yes, it is. Okay, this is a guide of truth. This is this is how I can know what's true.

[00:39:42]This is and then not keep grappling with every time you find a verse in your Bible that doesn't sound right. Now, is this is this all a lie? Has it been correct? No, it's like I have found the truth you know in the Bible and then find a healthy church which reflects the nature of Christ uh which teaches good doctrine but not only teaches it >> lives it you know and join a healthy church and then come under uh authority in the church where I can grow and learn the truth and so kind of like in that in that order and then I I will find not this DIY religion but I can actually find God's way of learning God's way of growing think God's way of being rooted in something solid.

[00:40:21]>> Totally. I one of one of the big challenges with this generation is they they weren't old. They wanted to feel old. They wanted to feel like it's been here and stood the test of time.

[00:40:31]>> And so another thing that we're seeing, it's not just Catholics and Orthodox, but you're also seeing a shift towards Calvinism. Again, it's interesting.

[00:40:38]Calvinism was actually a very minority position 20 25 years ago. uh I think still today they actually are a minority position but they've managed to present themselves as the Bible guys and um and through universities and good marketing and big names John MacArthur you know John Papa RC Sprout and others they've managed to kind of vam they've present themselves as we the guys that are standing on the unchanging word of God and that's become quite appealing to this young generation as well as they feel well maybe these are the guys that we can find truth truth in that we can find God in. And that's an interesting dynamic. What are your thoughts around that, you know, give us some >> Yeah. I said like I mean this is quite personal for me as well because I've had people even in my own congregation who were saved into the my congregation which I lead. They've maybe been in the congregation for two or three years like they we've taught them everything that they know like spiritually from babies and yet having conversations and finding that like actually there are other influences online that have really formed their thinking that have really formed their theology and it's not been from within the church. So this comes back to what we were saying earlier like where your fathers are like how is it God how is it that God has called us to learn >> and and who are my spiritual fathers. Is it like anyone who sort of sets himself up as a guru online? Is that my you know like uh and so the there is a very strong online presence for like the reformed school of thinking and reformed theology and I mean that's a whole big topic on its own of how did it become so dominant online because I agree with you. I think um reformed theology is over represented online. It's disproportionately represent. And that's not even a comment on whether it's right or wrong. It's just I don't think it reflects everyday Christianity. Like if you look at the average Christian around the world, what do they believe about God? And >> do you know 80% of Christians around the world around the world protest uh Calvinism only represents around 12% of the global of the global Protestant Christianity.

[00:42:42]Yes. And so but they if you go online you would think they are the vast majority and it's because they've taken their places of institution the learning you know I was even thinking of things like Wayne Grudam systematic theology which was probably the most accessible systematic theology that was made available a generation ago and it's it's formed how people think systematically the ESV study Bible which was probably the more one of the more accurate translations and how the commentaries on the study Bible are all done by Calvinists and so people are wanting truth They're going back to Bibles that seem like the most accurate. And the commentary on that Bible is now done by Calvinists, but your brain associates this is the true Bible. These commentaries are explaining the Bible.

[00:43:24]So you you you forming brilliantly.

[00:43:26]You're actually forming a generation to believe that Calvinism is the way, the truth, and the life. And it's it and it's just good marketing. It's just hitting people with their defenses down.

[00:43:36]And and do you remember years ago there was a thing I don't know how true it was but I think it probably was where they spoke about subliminal messages they would uh you'd go to watch a movie and just before the break they would flick one thing of Coca-Cola and apparently it would just be you you wouldn't your conscious brain wouldn't actually pick it up but your subconscious brain picks it up and suddenly [clears throat] you have this craving for Coca-Cola in the break.

[00:43:58]>> Yeah. before the break and then they and they found that this affected sales and again we heard this I heard this a lot I can't verify but I think there is some truth in that because I've seen my own brain if you flash something to me my brain quickly latches on to it and so I what's interesting is even chat GTP I remember grappling with chat GPT because it kept you know you trying to ask it questions at times and help you research and it kept throwing back reformed Calvinist theology at me and I was like so I eventually debating with I thought I could affect ffected. So I thought, okay, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to sort you out. So I eventually I I did win, but the problem with CHTP is it's going to let you win eventually because but eventually I asked it. So are you Calvinist basically? And it acknowledged yes, basically I am. And and and I realized what why why it's Calvinist is because it's following all the scholarly articles. How do it's how do you know if a person's a vegan?

[00:44:51]Because he'll tell you. How do you know you know how do you know if a person comes from that great school in South Africa? say like Gray High School is a great school. He'll tell you how do you know if a person's a Calvinist? He will tell you. The problem is if you're not a Calvinist, you're just a Christian. And so Calvinists have become a brand now that I think has hit those areas and they have a very disproportionate voice.

[00:45:11]And so yeah, CH GPT is going to give you the most common uh scholarly articles are Calvinist. It's going to frame its thinking and its answers that way because that's what it's perceiving is truth. And that's also affecting this generation which is terrifying. So I'm going to like uh like kind of assume the position of a Jenzi right now. You're using some language which they probably wouldn't understand, you know, like so for example, Calvinist, reformed like these are these are kind of Christianes words. So maybe I can put a question to you like what do what do you mean when you use those words?

[00:45:42]>> Well, Protestant Christianity has obviously divided quite significantly into different schools of understanding and interpreting what the Bible means.

[00:45:49]And one of the groups is a group called Calvinists who are uh very strong on the mystery of how salvation works. And they're very wanting to be very careful to try and give God glory. And I do love that about Calvinists. But they are very systematic in how they present their arguments. And um and so they feel like the if you don't understand the it's almost like if you don't understand properly the mystery of how God chooses you and elects you and it's all by him that um you might not actually be a proper Christian and and and then they're very strong on and they're very strong on Bible only but I would say I would say I am not a Calvinist but I am 100% as strong on the Bible only. I I do not believe that, but they tend to move away from things like um >> they want to go back to the Bible only and they they cut out God, the Holy Spirit. They they they say they don't, but they do effectively. They effectively say, "Well, we have the Bible. Now that we have the Bible, and I've got one here, now that we've got the Bible, we don't need anything else."

[00:46:50]The spirit will help us, but it's kind of in a mysterious way to give us eyes to see. But the spirit isn't there to lead us and empower us and change us.

[00:46:57]The spirit isn't there to speak to us directly. uh it's it's Bible only and that's appealing to a generation I think that um how do you follow the spirit he's like when the Bible says he's here today and gone you know but the sons of God are led by the spirit of God so that's very >> blurry language and and in an insecure generation I think they want to know >> but I need stability I need clarity and so because Calvinists are now seen as the Bible only guys there's a running towards it because it feels safe where actually the Bible tells us that that that the Bible is not enough.

[00:47:32]>> That that the Bible tells us that God will leave his Holy Spirit on the earth.

[00:47:37]Jesus came to the earth as a man and lived as a man and he shaped and formed the 12 and those who walked with him individually. And now he's with God. And so he says it's better that I go cuz if I go, I'm going to send the spirit and he'll do what I did to all of you. He can be everywhere at once. He can be in China right now with some guy who's just woken up in the morning and and like Jesus was there with the 12. He he's there speaking and leading and guiding saying this is the way walk in it but that mysticism is now in creates insecurity and so people go well I I I I struggle with that I want safety and I think that's what >> yeah so to to pick up on that I think you've picked up on something very important like often times spiritled that that language is interpreted by a whole generation as being feelings feeling led >> 100% and it's Calvinist even present it that way they're clever you reach a generation because you you speak the language their generation. So Calvin is saying, well, they're just feelings.

[00:48:30]They're not true. It's And so >> so, so if you talk about being feelings, that makes people feel insecure who are coming out of a culture where everything is feelings, even including like am I a man?

[00:48:40]>> Yeah, it's really good.

[00:48:41]>> You know, so there's an aversion to like being feelings led and and I think it's a good aversion. I think I'm I also have an aversion to being feelings. But being spiritledd is not being feelings.

[00:48:52]There is a way of the spirit communicating to our our hearts in a way which is not my feelings. It's it's God.

[00:49:00]It's God speaking. When you read the New Testament, you can't read too many chapters in the book of Acts, for example, without hearing the words and then the Holy Spirit said and then the Holy, you know. So being spiritled is not being feelings led. And I think we need to help like be quite careful in how we distinguish between the two because we support the one and reject the other, you know. So to so to be bibleelving Christians doesn't mean that we are not spiritledd. We the Bible itself like you said uh instructs us in how to follow God and that includes being spiritledd. You know those who are led by the spirit of God are sons are sons of God or children of God.

[00:49:37]>> You know what Calvinism has done?

[00:49:39]>> I think Calvinism is one of the most best marketed I mean even in my generation a generation ago there was a Calvinism emerged on the scene. It wasn't on the scene. It was a very minority group and it emerged within America, United States um and across most of the western world with the young, restless and reformed and you had these young poster children, John, what was his name? Mo school uh a few others young men that were suddenly the young poster children of these cool hip bearded tattooed kind of wither this young generation that grappling with the Bible and it just appealed to a generation these cool hip kind of intellectual grappling with the Bible and so they they kind of got very systematic and they communicated everything through a Calvinist lens and so you got this Calvinist branding that came through universities colleges lecturers you know online it's Calvinism everywhere. And so what it does is because they gave answers. And I think the rest of Christianity just didn't >> we just didn't define it clearly. We were blurry. We didn't we I don't think we seized the moment. I think we we were kind of just naive and just carried on living our lives loving Jesus. And so Calvinism just suddenly bam emerged on the scene and it began to form. And I saw friends falling quickly into Calvinist thinking and and and going what is going on? And they suddenly had this and Calvinists are something a little bit arrogant. They kind of carried this posture of like we're the guys and and and then some of and then the Calvinism did get a smack. You had um posted child Mark Driscoll has now repented publicly of of like he was wrong, he was deceived and you know it was a silly system. He can't believe he believed that. But still the guys have marketed themselves well and and I think uh they've been systematic in providing answers. So if I've got a question about tongues, Calvinists dominate what the Bible says about tongues.

[00:51:34]>> The online space as well. Like for example, if you had to Google that question, what is the gift of tongues? I would I would predict like the first eight results >> would be from very reformed and they're quite articulate quite systematic and top. But the problem is Yeah. But the pro and got questions, they're all Calvinist. All of the all of the the places you go to to find your answers now are Calvinist. They've they've they've hit that space. And so someone's searching online is going to be fed that information and the other side is sleeping and and the scripture says, you know, you hear a you hear an argument and it sounds right until you hear the other side. But what Calvinists are effectively doing is they've dominated that space and the other side is not being heard and they straw man arguing the other side. So they t I saw John MacArthur once saying or if your people are having modern music in your church then they're appealing to the flesh and they're appealing to carnality because they're trying to just you know be be relevant to this generation but the Bible is irrelevant and God's eternal and so that just shows you it's a compromised church. So we sing hymns in our church and I'm thinking dude you're supposed to be intelligent and people actually that sounds quite intelligent but it's really dumb because hymns were the rock music of a few hundred years ago and they started singing hymns. It was a style of music that was sung by Joe public in pubs because they wanted to bring the truths the eternal truths in a way that a generation could sing them and understand them. And God's not interested in whether your your music style is rock or if it's got drums or guitars in it. God is interested in the theology of music and the heart of music. It points to him. And and yes, I do think some of some of the charismatic churches have lost the plot on the other side. And they've really made it very easy to paint them as being stupid and over the top. And that's the tragedy of a church that went too far the other way. But equally, this side is as as bad on the other side. And for me, >> you know, if you sing music that sounds modern. I don't think it's like what does God only listen to music from hymns when were not a style of music at the time. If you go look at Jewish music, hymns of hymns would have been like, whoa, what are you doing? But but Calvinists make those things big things.

[00:53:47]Yeah.

[00:53:48]>> And so a generation that's now wanting security thinks, well, I want the old and so I want to go to a place that sings hymns because they're singing modern music. It's probably means they compromised and they they're no longer standing on the eternal truths. And so again, by clever marketing and straw man arguments, you lead a generation astray actually. And it's it's actually quite terrifying to me of how that works.

[00:54:09]>> Yeah. It's like the the form doesn't matter to the Lord as much as the content and the heart.

[00:54:14]>> And I think you can make things easily about this form of doing worship is God's way. But I mean, that's the trap the Pharisees fell into.

[00:54:24]the form, the outward content. And God does care about the form, but he cares equally about the heart. And we mustn't in a sense like overprescribe even like what the Bible says about worship when the Bible doesn't actually speak about those things. The Bible doesn't speak about how to worship.

[00:54:40]>> Sing to the Lord a new song. In other words, >> there's new songs. There's there's there's new things and it talks about instruments and joyful noise and shout sing. And you go to most Calvinist churches, the worship is there's no I mean it's it's it's just it's just style that is very subdued and very and and it it it's at the end of the day I do think we've got to try and help people. So this brings us to the question is so then how if you know the fields are white unto harvest in every generation.

[00:55:12]>> How does how do we as churches who want to reach every generation for Christ?

[00:55:18]What are the things we need to do? What are the what are the things we need to apply? H what are the hooks as we can that we can find to reach this mind and this generation so that we can see them coming into the fullness of the truth and and building their life properly on the rock of Jesus. What are some of your thoughts? I think that we we're going to need to be very patient uh with people coming in that have lots of questions.

[00:55:42]Um and and to not that no question is uh off off off base, you know. Uh um because you're going to get lots of different kinds of questions from left field and it there needs to be a safe place. The church needs to be a safe place where you can grapple, >> where you can have doubts, where you can ask questions about the Bible, like the inspiration of the Bible that Jensies love to ask about, you know, like where does the Bible come from and why should we trust the Bible and is it God's word gospels? So, so we need to be patient like we need to be patient with a generation that's very spiritually curious, but also quite skeptical and and often needing to explain why. Why do we believe this? Why do we believe that?

[00:56:23]not make assumptions that they've grown up in a Christian home, that they have the basics and the foundations there.

[00:56:29]They often don't. Yeah, they often >> even Bible stories on that before you run off. You know, I think we just presume that they have the framework of thinking and theology and and Bible knowledge that we do. And so we presume we can make statements, but but the problem is the building blocks of how we get there, they don't have. And in some ways we've almost got to get off our pull pits and come down to help a generation build the building blocks that helped us become and to see what we see and realize to be honest sometimes as we climb off of what we think we see and come down to where they are, we might find even some of our building blocks are modified slightly as we realize that we were >> too Protestant or too this or or too Calvinist or too minion or whatever it is and we need to grapple more with them uh and come into their world to lead them and come with them into what we know at the end of the day there are eternal truths and we need to help them get there. Yeah. So coming back to you.

[00:57:25]>> Yeah. So I think like um we church history is another I think I think as pastors we're going to have to be equipped in answering questions which we're not used to answering. I've had to do that in the last couple of years a lot.

[00:57:36]>> Uh questions about church history. I think we need to get we need to put up our socks a little bit when it comes to church history. We need to know why we believe what we believe where what the history of our church is. Why we are Protestant. uh we need to know about the reformation. We need to know about Martin Luther. And I think we need to bring our young people along on the journey of this is what we believe, but this is also why we believe it. This is how the church has wrestled with these truths over the years.

[00:58:02]>> And so I think we need depth. Uh we can't just teach people what we believe, but we need to have a deep understanding of why it is that we believe the things that we do. And uh we mustn't be scared.

[00:58:12]I know we were talking about this the other day. We mustn't be scared to um to to preach depth. You know, there's a generation that's actually quite hungry for truth and actually the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you know. Uh and and to not preach light, to not be have a superficial theology, uh to not just copy what other people believe and regurgitate what we've heard from other people to but to actually have a deep understanding. And that's challenging for us as leaders because we're busy people. And I think sometimes we need to um equip ourselves um and then also be be faithful in equipping others.

[00:58:47]>> It's very good.

[00:58:48]>> Yeah. With even with with with podcasts like this I think can be very helpful in explaining what it is that we believe but also why it is that we do. You know what what I think is really helpful out of this as well is you look at Christianity and certainly uh what we would classify uh churches that are alive, churches that have had the Holy Spirit in the moving powerfully the gifts operating but the theology of a lot of these churches went very shallow and I think there was massive compromise in significant portions of that part of the Christian church and so you know Christianity became self-help it became very very TED talks it became very Christianity Right. Christians became very, you know, they it was it it wasn't something that was well rooted and earthed. People were talking the talk, not walking the walk. And so it became a very shallow, easy to poke holes at. And I think something that this generation is a gift is a gift to every generation is it's forcing us all to go back to whoa, we need to revisit what we believe and how we how we do this. And I was thinking the average church, you know, our generation, you know, you grew churches on self-help and TED talks.

[00:59:53]Basically, your life is terrible. Jesus is going to come and he's going to make your life beautiful. And the classic story is, you know, your your life is this. You're going to tell Bible stories about, you know, how the disciples are in the boat and the storm comes and and now, you know, you're going to die.

[01:00:07]You're sinking, but then Jesus is there and he calls you to walk on the water.

[01:00:11]And so, know that whatever storm your life is in, Jesus is going to be there.

[01:00:14]And and it's very shallow actually. It's very individualistic, self-centered.

[01:00:18]It's like Jesus is the one who's going to save me when my will falls apart. and and it's not Christianity. It's actually a false form Christianity. And I think this generation is going to force us to go back to the deep truths because they don't want shallow Christianity. They don't want to be told superficially, don't worry, it's all going to be all right. They want to know why it's going to be all right. And they want to see the deeper Jesus and the God in his mystery of how he works and how actually sometimes it might not feel all right, but that he's actually the God that's there in the not feeling all right. And I've been finding lately coming into this culture in America, I am spending more time I'm I this last Sunday I did a teach that was university it was university you know college level higher grade teach on some of the mysteries of God and how he works and um and people are just loving it and it's like this generation young people are starting to stream in because I think >> I I want this it makes sense you you you're grappling with the Bible in such a way that I can understand with you And it's deep and it's heavy. And the challenge is they are Instagram. Yes. So they their brains they they don't they struggle to hold thoughts for long. But if I can get them to just stick with me and to see the value of it and they do, they start to actually see it. And I think it's it's becoming something of a generation that I think could become a redeeming generation for the church because actually what they're longing for deep down inside I think we all long for. And I think we've learned how to put plasters on it in generations before and we've drifted here. Actually, we need to go back to the deep truths, the old ways, the ancient ways, and we need to rework those and rework how we communicate those things and come back to the real undergurtdings of what it is to be a Christian and what it is to be a follower of Christ. Drop the shallow grace and this he loves me. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:03]Yeah. And actually teach me how I can have relationship with him and how I can walk with him. And so, I think it's potentially a generation that is going to be uh probably one of the the last generations. I mean, they've been saying that for 2,000 years, but I >> What is Gen Z? That's at the end of that.

[01:02:17]>> Yeah. Well, there you go. Prophetic statement, right? Gen Z. And and I think maybe actually a part of a reformation in the Christian church that brings her to the truth. But in the middle of that, I think the danger is that the church is tearing herself apart right now with all her questions. And if we don't get clear voices that speak wisely and clearly, we're going to see a church factioned, divided, and torn, and probably another generation needing to actually rise up and to be ones that find the truth. Your thoughts on any last thoughts there for you?

[01:02:47]>> I think I'm I'm excited. I'm excited for what God's doing. I'm blown away in some ways at what God has already done in the culture shift.

[01:02:54]>> Excited at the at the possibilities if we the fields are white and to harvest and it's an exciting time to be alive.

[01:03:01]So that that I think is is my is how I'm feeling at the moment. And I think some of these things that we've discussed will hopefully help both Jenz's but also also the church to to be to to relay the answers that a generation is actually looking for.