MACV-SOG Hatchet Force vet Terry Cadenbach: SOG Facts & Fiction

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]Alrighty. Good morning everybody.

[00:00:02]Already see we got some folks in the uh in the chat uh talking to us. Good morning Dan. Hope you're doing well.

[00:00:08]Mary Joe, always glad to see you guys with us. Um and yes, we've got our favorite favorite uncle uh on the We Yeah, we got to start referring to Terry's uncle Terry. Uh we've got Mr. Terry back to to join us here and we're going to be covering right off the bat.

[00:00:26]We're going to be covering some some myths that are that are running rampant not only on the internet but also we're starting Alex good to see you brother but also on some of these YouTube channels uh not the SOG channels per se but some of these upshoot channels that are using AI to make up nonsense and all of that. So, we're going to be covering some stuff right off the bat and then we've got some interesting stuff that Mary Joe wanted to know about and then some stuff we made off a list that uh another SOG vet posted the other day uh that that we all saw SOG oriented that we're going to be going through. So, um, right off the bat, as I posted on the group channel page, uh, probably 3 or 4 days ago, we're going to talk about the SAS and their non relation to SOG and non operational status with SOG. Um, right off the bat, um, Mr. Terry, would you like to to jump in here? Do you want me to ramble or what? You want to >> Well, yeah, we can talk about the SAS thing first. Um, hey, um, you know, and again, my response is going to be based on my experience plus things that I've learned over the years.

[00:01:50]I don't know where all this SAS stuff's coming from.

[00:01:55]It is a fact that at the um whatever you want to call it, the one zero school, the recondo school, whatever, that there were some SAS guys. Okay.

[00:02:09]But as far as SOG teams going out in the bush, going across the fence, and running our missions, no, there wasn't. We didn't. No, there wasn't SAS.

[00:02:25]They may have sent a couple SAS guys. I understand there was a couple at uh CCC, but they were just there for a real short time. They weren't there as an assignment to run missions.

[00:02:45]I think they were there to learn, try to pick up a few tricks of the bush, you might call it, whatever. But, um, I just don't know where this crap comes from. Sometimes you can read the comments and you can tell that they're coming from people that never been there, never done that, and somewhere they get it in their head that oh that yeah, they did SAS ran with SAG.

[00:03:16]Well, no m Mr. Carl does a good one right here. This is uh an email I sent to myself from a Facebook post and that's his one zero class photo right here at long time with a few SAS and Australians and Kiwis. Now mind you, okay, here we are. My one zero school graduation photo, the two on the far right and tigers are Aussie SAS with a Kiwi SAS. They attended the C the course with us. I have no idea uh if they were in SOG or why they attended. They were not in SOG. I assure you of that. Great guys though, they weren't allowed to sit in on the secret and uh no foreign uh classes, the como, the crypto. So that there were certain they they weren't even allowed to go through all of one zero school. So, I mean that that right there shows you >> they're not in the organization if they're not allowed trusted to go through the whole entirety of the course.

[00:04:18]>> Well, and it it's not even so much that we didn't trust them as much as it was that we had to get a top secret security clearance. They didn't. And because they didn't, you know, you >> long time is also, >> people forget Longtime is also the Aussie AO. So that has a lot to play with it, too. I know for a fact the helicopter aspect at Ricondo School and at some aspects of it at uh 10 school, they actually had Aussie air support.

[00:04:53]Now, there weren't SAS constantly going through this. This is the only time I've ever seen that they had men in a class photo like this was Carl's. And I've been asking for for years now.

[00:05:09]Just because there were some SAS guys in a training class, you can't take that and transpose it to say, well, if they were in a class with SOG guys, then they must have ran with SOG. And and it's just not the case.

[00:05:26]>> No. No.

[00:05:28]and they were doing their their own thing. The SOG was a strictly Vietnamese American aspect and and and as far as everyone can tell except for the guys that were offshot to the might forces, that was as close as they got to working with the special forces. They'd be in an A camp maybe, but they they they did work uh with the might forces. I've seen early on in Project Omega, they had a bit of a a transition. That dog in there is going crazy for no apparent reason.

[00:06:00]Yeah. But they had a little bit of a uh >> what's it called? A uh >> swap to where an American went over to the AATV and one guy went over to Project Omega, but they didn't run recon. He was a staff officer. Seeing how it work >> cases you call that cross trainining.

[00:06:17]>> There you go. Yeah. Yeah. But as long as you mention Mike Force, then let's address that also because that's been a big for the last month, month and a half. We it keeps popping up on these groups, these SOG groups.

[00:06:33]Again, Mike Force did not support SOG.

[00:06:40]That's why we had Hatchet Forces.

[00:06:43]>> Exactly.

[00:06:45]So, uh, hey Kane. Um, so Mike Force did not. Now, there may have been because I wasn't in Mike Force, I'm not going to swear that it never happened, but uh there may have been a remote instance or two >> crossing paths in an A camp or >> you know, but to say that to say that Mike Force supported SOG is just totally bogus.

[00:07:21]And again, it's one of those things that somebody obviously somebody who wasn't there doesn't know and they've got it in their head somehow. Um that >> their job was doing what y'all did but for the A camps and their own, you know, big operations.

[00:07:39]>> That's exactly the thing. Their their main function was to support the A camps. Their secondary function was they did some big operations like Newico is probably the most notorious or well-known one of that >> but um um but supporting SOG no because they didn't go across the border >> you know and if if you needed a big operation across the fence that's what we were there for in hatchet force >> and So, um, you know, again, it's one of those things. Somebody posts something and then people take it and next thing you know, it's being spouted on all these Facebook groups, which I got to say there's way too many SOG related Facebook groups.

[00:08:35]>> Absolutely. Now, there's ones I saw a picture this morning supposedly of guys in um on an ambush and they got a tent over them, a shelter, and you can tell it's AI, you know, but that's what's happening.

[00:08:55]And these people are taking this AI crap and um um um I don't know, >> you know. SOG. I mean, they did. The only correlation you could kind of say is a lot of Mike Force men ended up in SOG. Uh, or a lot of SOG guys ended Mike Force and then ended up going to SOG.

[00:09:17]So, there was that switching of personnel, but there there was no direct working together with with them.

[00:09:24]>> But that was because guys mostly guys who did multiple tours. Look, I may have done a tour in Mike Force and more than likely heard about SOG.

[00:09:38]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:09:39]>> Even though again, I'm telling you, it wasn't talked about except in Whispers.

[00:09:47]>> So, but he may have heard about something secret going on or whatever.

[00:09:52]Goes home for six months. You had to go back for six months, then you could come back. So he may have gone home, came back maybe even a year later and volunteered for SAG, you know. So yeah, there was a Mike Force connection, but it wasn't a connection of support. It was just a connection of knowledge based on his experience.

[00:10:15]>> Exactly.

[00:10:17]>> Exactly. And uh another thing we can clear up as we're getting to our last two here, the lurps. As much as we love and and and respect our LAR ranger men, uh they were working in country. They they did not do point recon for SOG.

[00:10:35]They did not uh they did not do anything for SOG, quite frankly. They may have ran some later in the war that the CCN doing the Asaw and stuff like that. They may have gone to some of the same areas, but they were not working with SAG.

[00:10:52]I've I've heard Ashawa and at Lamson 719 when we went into actually invaded >> Laos >> that there were some lurp teams supporting >> absolutely >> they did not to my knowledge cross the border because again that's where that top secret security clearance comes in because we weren't supposed to be there in the first place.

[00:11:19]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And um um James, you must have just got on after we talked about this. Um Hatchet Force and Mike Force, and I'm going to just go out on and say it, never ever worked together, you know, two completely separate um >> organizations and mission statements.

[00:11:44]Yeah. in country versus >> top secret operations in country mostly training stuff.

[00:11:52]>> Later in the war 71ish and 72 when it shut down pretty much all they were doing was in country then you know >> but like in my time frame um >> everything was across the fence.

[00:12:05]>> It was all across the border >> or across the fence as we like to call it. you know, I I guess that was supposed to fool somebody by calling it offense, but um so yeah, all these different organizations, I call them organizations, whether it be the LERs, Recon Marines, Mike Force, SAS.

[00:12:28]No. No.

[00:12:31]Did I say no? I'll say it a little bit louder. No.

[00:12:37]>> I'm tired of hearing it.

[00:12:39]Yeah. And that's not to bag on any of these organizations.

[00:12:43]This is this is just saying the the truth that that SOG was the reason or or they were made for that reason.

[00:12:52]Crossborder operations strictly SOG.

[00:12:55]These other groups may may have twiddled a little bit across the border. In fact, we know some lurp teams got in trouble and and some of the men went missing in action. We've had guests on. But as far as running regular crossber operations, SOG was the ball game.

[00:13:12]>> And that that's I guess that's what kind of ticks me off because we got you and Jason and a few other people doing all these podcasts and stuff. Well, if you start repeating some of this wrong information, after a period of time, in most people's minds, it becomes fact.

[00:13:35]>> So, now you're changing history completely.

[00:13:38]>> Absolutely.

[00:13:39]>> I I guess that's that's kind of what sets me off.

[00:13:43]>> That's why uh like we said, it was it's vital that you guys get on here yourselves. I can say it, I can do it and share it and all of that, but having it come from a SOG bet and a Vietnam vet, it that that's what makes all the difference in it getting out and and and now anytime someone says it, I see on Facebook all the time and it makes me extremely happy when that situation we've spoken about people clip it and they're like, "Well, look at this. Mr. Terry Aogvet said this and there we go."

[00:14:17]I guarantee you before the week is over on one of those SOG Facebook groups, you'll see some of this exact crap that I just said no to.

[00:14:28]>> Oh. Oh, yeah. Right.

[00:14:30]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:14:32]>> The SAS thing. I know where that started. There is a huge channel that and I can't believe it has it and it's only a year old. has like 250,000 subscribers and all it does is take random shots and they're not even all SAS in Vietnam. It's SOG man. It's alerts and they make they put it in chat GPT say write an SAS history involving SOG or whatever and they make up stories to where the the one I got kicked off and finally said enough's enough is to where they had SAS men because they they were so good in the jungle at this time they had to send them to FOB2 to train y'all because y'all were having so many KAS and needed to learn how to properly operate in the jungle. And that's when I finally said enough's enough. I I got to clear this up.

[00:15:24]>> Yeah. Um Yeah.

[00:15:28]>> Just just crazy >> too to train on.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and with all the the heavy hitters that were there, forget about that. Um but also um th this is a big one that's been popping up on the pages as of late, which you know it it could have happened a one and done, but you're we want to hear from you. the sixmonth, six six operations and you were were done with with your duties at SOG, so to speak.

[00:15:56]>> One of our SOG guys made a comment the other day because we talked about that online and where he thought that it came from.

[00:16:08]>> What I'm going to say is there was no Did I say no? there was no official program of rotation.

[00:16:22]And now I do know that a lot of officers only spent maybe six months and and my friend Michael Pek who was on last month. Um, Mike spent almost 6 months in the hatchet force and I that's where I got to know him and then they moved him to S3. Well, when he got to S3, he did periodically go out on recon with strap hanging with a recon team to get more of a feel for what's going on.

[00:17:00]Um Um, but it I and that's because he got requested.

[00:17:08]Uh but yeah, a lot of the officers, they came and they went. I don't think it was an official like six month deal.

[00:17:17]If it was, that's above my pay grade.

[00:17:20]But for enlisted guys, no, you volunteer for SOG, you either end up on a recon team or on hatchet force. Like I I didn't even get a choice. I was because of all the losses I was assigned to the hatchet force and I'm glad I did because I I have so many memories and I learned so much being on a hatchet force. I have no regrets at all about well I never got to run recon whatever because a lot of the stuff we did you could call it recon and they called it recon and force um you know it's all just on a different scale but um so whether you got a sign let's say to hatchet force first you may have got a sign like I did or you may have volunte they asked you what do you want to do hatchet force or recon. So once you're there, you're there unless one of several things.

[00:18:32]One and I won't name his name, but well, yeah, I will. So my because he talked about it on here on a podcast, my buddy John Holland. So John was on recon RT South Carolina.

[00:18:51]Carlos Parker.

[00:18:53]>> And one day, Howard told him, "You're being reassigned um uh you're being reassigned to the hatchet force." And he's like, "Why?" He said, "Cuz the yards are ready to kill you because you snore too loud."

[00:19:12]But generally speaking, if you're on one and you want to go to the other, absolutely no problem. You just say, "Hey, I'm kind of burned out on recon or I'm pressing my luck or blah blah blah. I'd like to go. I'd feel a little bit better going to hatchet force, you know, maybe safety and numbers or whatever." And that should not be looked at as cowardice or anything at all like that. It's just everybody's different. And at some point in time, you may come to realize I'm going to take these damn glasses off because that reflection's driving me crazy. But now I can't I can't read the comments. Um, you may come to that realization that on recon every time we go out we're getting shot up and my day is coming. So, but I don't want to quit going to the field >> because and this something we've talked about before is the adrenaline rush after a while and I don't care if it's recon or hatchet force.

[00:20:30]An awful lot of us, you're looking for that next rush, you're living for that next rush. And and that's not to and that's not to brag or to you know whatever.

[00:20:44]>> It's just a human reaction. That's a fact.

[00:20:46]>> It's a fact of life. And probably Shrivever was a perfect example of that.

[00:20:52]Always looking for that next adrenaline rush. And um um you know um so you're you're you're just getting a bad feeling which kind of goes into I promised Mary Joe we would talk about premonitions and we will in a little while but you start getting sometimes you start getting those premonitions and you know I'm maybe pressing my luck a little too much. I want to go to Hatchet Force. Well, I'm gonna tell you on Hatchet Force, it's the same just on a different scale because there wasn't a time that I ever went out that that pucker factor didn't follow me. But on the other side of the coin, you got the pucker factor over here. And not I know Jason, your your mag your books are called pucker factor, but it's a real fact of life. on the other side of the coin is you got the adrenaline rush. And so it's just on a different scale. And so we had guys in Hatchet Force who wanted to go to recon >> and it happened a lot. It there there are a lot of guys that went from recon to hatchet force and vice versa. Yeah, I mean I think there was a lot more that went from recon to Hatchet Force than went from Hatchet Force to recon, but still there was that >> whatever you want to call it, trading back and forth, rotating back and forth or whatever.

[00:22:31]>> But that's a reality, but that was not a like a formal program of you're going to spend six months on one, six months on the other.

[00:22:42]>> Yeah.

[00:22:42]>> Um it it's >> health. I mean, I was talking to one guy that was there in 71 and Ed Walkoff did a good job of breaking down, you know, mission train up blah blah blah, you're out, you're down a week, and then it all starts over again. And one guy was saying, you know, you with all that's going on, the lack of teams, people are thinking, you know, there's all these teams that are running because Jason's got these great books and there's so many teams. All of these teams weren't operational all the time. You only had five, six, seven teams that were able to go out to the field at any one time, if that at some points. And you have guys that would run six missions and that was it. That's all they could run in a year.

[00:23:30]>> I'm sorry I keep over talking you. No, no, no, no.

[00:23:33]>> Let's So, let's use an example here. So, you got a recon team of three Americans and oh, let's just say on average five or six yards or nungs or whatever, you go on a really bad mission and let's say you lose two or three of your indig, >> you may even lose one or two of your Americans. Well, that team is no longer functional to go to the field until it gets rebuilt.

[00:24:04]>> And when I say rebuilt, okay, number one, you got to replenish your Americans >> because you're not going to go out there. I know there's one or two examples, one American going out, but that's to me that's in >> few and far between. Yeah. So then you got to get new Americans on there, but now you've also got to get some more yards to fill out your indig side of the coin. And um that's a question that's been asked a million times, too. Did each individual team hire their own? Uh pretty much what you did was you relied and it was the same in Hatchet Force.

[00:24:47]You relied on the recommendations of your indig leaders, your indigenous team leader and his men. And uh I mean we did the same thing in Hatchet force. you know, the indig uh commander would come and say, "Hey, I got I know we need some more guys. I got these two guys. They've got experience with Mike Force."

[00:25:15]Whatever.

[00:25:16]>> I was just fixing to say we have a guy uh from CCC that worked with y'all and he remembers you and I can't pronounce his last name. He goes by Chay, but C H A Y, not like Chay Goa. Uh but he said the the when he started out in Hatchet Forces, it was just like you said, word of mouth. The guys would be down at B36, the mobile guerilla force or uh at the Konto Mike Force, and they'd say, "Hey, I know this guy from back home, I know this guy from when I was at in in B36 or the mic forces. He'd come over, pass muster, and boom, he'd be in and they'd find out there'd be more guys like that wanting to come over and work with guys they knew." and staff and and rosters would be filled out just like that. I mean, it's very interesting talking now that Indig are are on Facebook and Instagram sharing how this worked.

[00:26:10]>> Yeah. I mean, um, in today's world, it's it's totally different. I mean, you can get on a computer and research somebody and all that kind of stuff, but back then it was all word of mouth.

[00:26:29]>> And it's it's a fact of life that the yards were and the nuns. I'm I'm using the term yards, but I'm including the nungs and some of the cambodess and that. Um they've been fighting their whole life.

[00:26:49]>> Oh yeah.

[00:26:49]>> And um um uh yeah. Um so yeah, I got to put the damn glasses back on because I can't read the comments and I don't want to lose track of some of these comments. Um, somebody was asking about the play, uh, Lucky was asking about the plate trap valley and why it was such a bad place for us.

[00:27:18]>> Let's just lump the plate trap valley in with some of our AOS. For instance, Oscar 8, Hotel India, and Juliet 9 right there at the bra area.

[00:27:32]Every one of them places, the Ashaw, if you go in there, you go in there already knowing upfront, you're going to get your ass kicked. It's it's just because they were so heavily populated with um North Vietnamese troops because they were staging areas.

[00:27:56]That that picture is taken from the general vicinity of Legghorn.

[00:28:06]Uh Legghorn would be further as you're looking at the picture towards you, but it's in that general direction cuz I've got my pictures, you've got them of um you look um um from Legghorn and that's what you see. And you notice the heavily vegetated area at the bottom of the picture and not so heavily vegetated on the right.

[00:28:36]So, Hotel 9 was more towards the forefront of this picture and you got India and Juliet 9 as you go up on that picture. Um, so the terrain, but all three of those areas were regimental base camps, you know, and I've I've told the story so many times about my first mission and we went into Hotel 9 and it was, you know, you got steps built into the mountain going up to the top. So, what does that tell you? I mean, it doesn't take an idiot to figure it out, right?

[00:29:16]you need to be wide awake because you're you're walking into something that you may not walk out of. And um um uh so again, that goes back to what we were talking about before we got off on this.

[00:29:35]um you go into those areas and get shot up, well, you now have a team that's not able to be effectively deployed.

[00:29:50]And to me, and God love him and God rest his soul, Ron Goule, my company commander, he frequently would like to walk the road or the trails. And that's just a big no no because that's what the bad guys are using, >> you know, and um and for a recap to face >> one of them would be just pure insanity, >> suicide.

[00:30:22]But um so for instance um March of 69 the hatchet force we had taken so many casualties over the past few months cuz we were in and out. I mean, we were in we were in Hotel 9. Let's see. November of ' 68, we went into Hotel 9.

[00:30:49]Took some casualties. Had to be pulled out.

[00:30:53]February of 69, where did we go? We went into Hotel 9. We walked the road. We got shot out. I got shot down in a helicopter. And you know that led to my spinal surgery this year. And um each time that happens, I got to quit gesturing so much. Each time each time that happens, you're losing people. And if you don't constantly, as it happens, replace them. you end up where we ended up in March of 69 having to do um actually Vern Ward um um had come in from Milo or wherever he was at at the time up north. He came down in January of ' 69 specifically to train a whole new company.

[00:31:53]>> Damn.

[00:31:53]>> of hatchet force because we had taken so many casualties. So that time frame of late 68. Yeah. You know, John can tell you about boil that's a very sad story in February of um um um >> 70 Um but um um um he came in and they trained. I wasn't even aware because again we were at the yard camp and that was down at the FOB.

[00:32:29]I wasn't even aware that he was down there training a whole another company and I've seen references to it but I never even knew that we had a third hatchet force company at Kum.

[00:32:42]Apparently, we did, but I didn't know it, you know. I didn't even know it in 1970 when I left. So, I don't know. I don't know. Um, >> yeah, D didn't pop up until like uh like like right after you left pretty much uh 7071 time frame.

[00:33:04]So, it was an ongoing hiring process to replenish teams that were constantly I mean, let's face it, when you're when you've got a 100 to I've I've seen 100% casualty rate. I've seen 150%.

[00:33:20]Whatever it was, it was I mean I know I mean I got shot three times in seven months. So, was I part of the 100% or 150? I it doesn't matter, you know. Um I'm just glad to be here. But um Mama Oh my god, James.

[00:33:43]Uh I Yes, it is. Um I don't have an actual picture. Well, I do. I have a picture standing outside Mama Bixs that I took of the Continental Palace Hotel and Bud has that in my pictures, but that's kind of away from what we're talking about. But yeah, um yeah. Yeah, Mama Bicks. that that was like if you weren't in special forces, uh you're taking your health in your hands going in Mama Bick's cuz if we go in there and you're in there, you're going to get kicked out or beat up and thrown out, whatever. But yeah, Mama Bick, there I am. Mama Bick uh we we believe then and I believe today that she was also funneling information to the North Vietnamese.

[00:34:41]>> Oh, >> these guys, the SF guys would go in there and get drunk and start talking. I mean, you know, so that's all in Saigon.

[00:34:52]But the Continental Palace Hotel was a uh that's where all the journalists hung out.

[00:34:59]>> And so we would go over there just to drink because they had better better booze really and better girls. So um um anyway, we're getting sidetracked and uh Bud has >> premonitions. Uh that was uh on our next on the list was uh if you wanted to go ahead and for Mary Joe talk about premonitions.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah. So Mary Joe expressed something I said the other day on a a comment that I made on podcast. She'd like to talk about um you know the um um oh what am I trying to say? the u premonitions and um um um um how it happened. So I've I've told the stories about my premonition, but I you got so many new viewers and stuff. Maybe we'll just I'll real quick go through it. So, in uh March of 69, we were tasked with going in to take out a um I guess I I'll call it a um um truck park. It was actually a refueling station. You can call it a truck park.

[00:36:26]Anyway, a recon team had found it and apparently got shot out. So they said, "Okay, you you guys are going in." So March 25th of 69, we go in.

[00:36:40]Our RO that night was obviously on top of a hill.

[00:36:47]Well, what now? Maybe Captain Goule knew it, but I know I didn't know it. But down at the bottom of the hill was the truck park. So all night long we're hearing trucks pulling and stop. You can hear the brakes squeal stopping. You hear tailgates go down and um um you know so we knew it's right there. So that night I had a dream that I was going to get shot in the left leg the next day.

[00:37:22]Is that a premonition or just a bad dream? Well, guess what? The next day, I got shot in the left ankle, but that's part of my left leg.

[00:37:31]>> Yeah.

[00:37:32]>> Okay. So, then, you know, I get medevaced and I'm in the hospital down at first I'm at play coup before they sent me to Japan. Um, and they let me call. They came in one day and said, "Do you want to call home?" Yeah, fine. I'll call home.

[00:37:51]And so they did that. It was called MARS, which milit I don't even know what it stood for. Military something radio system. Anyway, um so they get my mom on the phone through a series of ham radio operators and relaying and um my mom's like, "You're in the hospital, aren't you?" and they cut in and said, "You can't discuss certain things."

[00:38:23]She I said, "Well, you got it figured out." She said, "You got shot, didn't you?" And they like, "You can't." She said, "I had a dream the other night."

[00:38:31]Well, the dream was the same night I had my dream. So, here's me and my mother having the same dream, the same night, and it happened the next day.

[00:38:46]And you know um um you know um it how do you explain it? I mean I I can't explain it. Um I had um I had um um several other experiences like that. Not as bad. But um I think I think most of us have one time or another had um call them premonitions because I guess that's what it is really. Um military auxiliary Daniel you're like like a walking encyclopedia man. Um um Bud has a and we won't talk names or anything like that. Bud has an actual letter from a recon guy that he sent home to his family talking about um um his premonition that his time was about up. And um um um it's it's really a very um telling letter and you know we can't read it on here and all that >> and he knows he's going to be uh missing an action. They won't be able to get his body. It's uh it's quite moving. Very very sad. And it I'm aware of another individual who ran recon and then came to hatchet force, but I attended his funeral the day I got home the first time. And uh some of his letters to his family kind of fortold the same thing >> and it came true. Um, so I don't think you can write it off when you have these dreams.

[00:41:03]What do you do? Like, okay, I had the dream I'm going to get shot the next day in the left leg. Did I do anything different?

[00:41:12]>> Prevent it? No. What are you gonna do?

[00:41:15]You do your job. If it happens, it happens. I mean, you have if you don't have that attitude, if it happens, it if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. You ain't got no business doing it anyway. You ain't got no business being out there because you're a end up getting somebody else.

[00:41:32]>> I was just fixing to say one of the veterans I've spoke to that had a premonition said, you know, and I asked him just that. I was like, did you, for lack of a better term, did you pussyfoot around to to try and ease the chances of you being injured? He's like, "No, because the guy behind me or the guy in front of me would have gotten killed or or injured. If it's my time, it's my time and I'm not passing it on to anybody else."

[00:41:58]>> And you know, that's not because to say that it's not because we all thought that we were some kind of heroes or, you know, any kind of crap like that. It's we volunteered to do a job.

[00:42:16]If the day comes when you're no longer comfortable or willing to do that job, it's time to get your ass out before you get somebody else killed. And it it's really that simple. And that's not to um not to downgrade that person. I say time to get your ass out. I mean, that's probably going a little too far, but you have to know when it's time to give it up. And if you start having these premonitions over and over and over again, you need to be out. Oh yeah.

[00:42:53]>> Because if it becomes a um oh hell, what's the right word, bud? Um if it >> omen like an omen of sort hanging over you.

[00:43:05]>> Yeah. If it becomes an overriding like an omen, it's going to happen because you're going to make m careless mistakes. You're going to will it to happen.

[00:43:16]>> Yeah. It's It's almost like you will it to happen. Um >> self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:43:22]>> Yeah. Exact. That's exactly. So, um there's other examples that we could give, but without permission of the people involved, I don't feel comfortable doing it. But um did did anybody um did did anybody um has anybody ever said that they never had a single premonition?

[00:43:58]I I doubt it. You may not call it a primitive. You may dress it up and call it something else like a dream or whatever. um uh >> nightmare or something, you know.

[00:44:11]>> Yeah, you may it may be a nightmare. It may be this or that or the other.

[00:44:17]Um um but when it's all said and done, at that point, it's time to get out.

[00:44:26]>> Um >> that's the universe telling you. Yeah, Mary Joe, I don't know if we've addressed this enough, but uh you know, sometimes we've got to protect the privacy of some people. some people, Bud and I talked about this this morning and yesterday, um, some of our guys, and we're losing guys right and left due to old age or sickness or cancer or whatever.

[00:44:59]Um, um, um, we're losing so many guys. We got to get these stories told, but we've got guys out there. butt has recorded interviews with them, but they don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. It may be technological. It may just be they're self-conscious about being on u a video thing, but the stories are going to be gone. And um uh you know um you know Frank's story about his cousin having a dream about their friend being shot and killed. You know you you can have a premonition and it's not even about you. Um, uh, yeah. I mean, it's it's just, you know, it's it it's >> always pay attention to dreams. They're >> that's good because they may or may not be realistic.

[00:46:02]Um, I used to dream all the time. My nickname in high school when I was wrestling was Superman for reasons. And even until oh god probably the early 90s I used to have dreams about flying that I was flying.

[00:46:24]Well [ __ ] I can't fly you know but I had those dreams.

[00:46:30]Um you know and it's it's just like um I don't know. It it it's really strange because when we would um be notified that we were going on a mission um I don't think there's any of us that didn't like the night before, especially the night before we go out um um on a mission.

[00:47:03]Um, you have dreams. I won't call them premonitions, but you'd have dreams about, for instance, okay, we're going into Hotel 9. So, I already know upfront we're going to get shot up. If we last two days, even Hatchet Force, if we last two days, we're lucky.

[00:47:24]not really a a premonition, but the dream based on factual knowledge, you know. Um, did it keep you awake all night? Hell no. You got to sleep. Um, you're on the chopper going in and from the minute you get on that chopper and the chopper takes off to take you over across the fence, your mind is thinking about all these things. number one. Yeah, they probably already know we're coming.

[00:48:05]And a and a landing zone for um Hatchet Force was not the same as an LZ for a recon team because you got 105 guys going in.

[00:48:18]You need something where you can land a couple of choppers at a time or you're going to be landing people all day long and they're going to be blowing the choppers out of the sky. So you've got all these things going through in in your mind and depending on your state of mind at that moment, are you having a premonition or are you having a just a concern?

[00:48:49]Sometimes the line is blurred between the two and that stress level.

[00:48:56]Um, so your stress level is going up up up.

[00:49:02]you, let's say you get to the LZ, they get you on the ground, not a shot being fired, and you get into the tree line, and as the last chopper leaves, and the silence becomes deafening, there's a whole new set of things that start going on in your head. Okay. Are they waiting on us and they're just going to spring an ambush on us or um you know um all these things going on and um yeah I mean um you cannot let it um what am I trying to say? You can't let it override common sense.

[00:49:59]If if you let if you let all those thoughts take over, you you're well trained to do the job.

[00:50:09]So, just do the job. Don't let those thoughts make you go in another direction that's going to be the wrong direction.

[00:50:20]and um you know so yeah >> time wise but we got about what five or 10 minutes.

[00:50:30]>> Yep. We're hitting 51. Um uh how about we won't go into super in-depth but how about did you say you had a few interesting tidbits on uh draft dodgers? Maybe that could cover our 10 minutes because I actually had I wanted to talk about some stories, but we don't have time for that. But did you have a few stories on on that that you said?

[00:50:54]>> Um, well, we >> if not I've got some examples. I was just going to cover some some the links people would go. My examples are not they're not even SOG related because you got a draft dodger inside.

[00:51:09]>> Um, >> when I joined the army, I joined on December the 5th of 1966.

[00:51:17]So, you got to remember you got Christmas coming up and the military shuts down over Christmas holidays. So, we had two weeks of basic training and then they sent us home on leave for two weeks and then we came back to continue basic after New Year's. Well, while we were home on leave, one of the guys in my platoon who was a drafty took a shotgun and he blew off part of his foot because he was a drafty and he didn't want to be there.

[00:51:52]>> Yeah. And then when I got out of basic, you know, I told the recruiter I wanted to be in special forces and combat what?

[00:52:02]Well, we get out of basic and I get orders to go to Fort Le, Virginia to quartermaster school, ordinance supply parts specialist, which means you're going to be sitting in a warehouse handling out gun parts. That ain't what I volunteered for.

[00:52:21]So I volunteered or I filled out the paperwork and applied for OCS. So when I graduated from AIT, I had orders to go to this unforaken place that nobody had ever heard of called Tuli Army Depot in Utah.

[00:52:38]And my company commander, thank God he was on the ball. He saw those orders and he's like, "No, you're supposed to be going to OCS." So they had those orders cancelled and they made me an acting corporal in the company till they could figure out why I didn't get orders for OCS.

[00:52:57]So while we're waiting, so they make me an acting corporal and I was a the mail clerk because I had to do something, you know. So I sit in a cage every day sorting mail. So every night at the 5:00 formation, I would go around the company to each platoon and hand out the mail, which took a little while. Well, we had this Puerto Rican guy who again was a drafty, didn't want to be there, and he'd run around at night wearing women's wigs and basically acting like he was a Froot Loop trying to get out, you know. Well, they knew what he was doing, so they pretty much just ignored him.

[00:53:45]So, I got in front of that platoon and I'm handing out mail and all of a sudden he swings and hits me right in the mouth and puts my tooth through my lip and um let's just say Superman was alive and well that day.

[00:54:11]And when he got out of the hospital, I got to take him to his court marshal.

[00:54:17]So they had me pick up a 45 and a M14, took him to his court marshal, and took him up to Fort Belvore, Virginia to the stockade.

[00:54:28]Um, but that's the that's the extremes that people would go to because they didn't want to be in the army. Uh, so are they draft Dodgers?

[00:54:41]Well, you know, I guess a lot of people would say a draft Dodger was somebody that like >> fled north or >> Yeah. or got a college deferment or, you know, some of that, but really you're dodging the draft by injuring yourself or taking yourself out of the show, >> blowing your foot off. That That's >> So that's something you got to live with the rest of your life. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:08]>> Plus the knowledge that you did it on purpose cuz you're a damn coward.

[00:55:12]>> That limp every morning will remind you.

[00:55:16]>> Yeah. Um so um Yeah.

[00:55:23]Now this is not a draft dodger, but again this is one of them stolen Valor deals.

[00:55:30]So, my next door neighbor, he was in the Marines and he went to Vietnam for about two months in a communications unit and they sent him home because he had polyps in his nose. And I don't think he's ever gotten over that. And so, me and him being friends and my buddy Eddie that's on here, he knows who I'm talking about.

[00:55:52]Um, we were talking out on the road. uh um about a month ago after the elections, the primaries or whatever, and he asked me if I knew this guy. And what it was was for whatever reason, he was an election judge just like I'd been for the last 10 or 15 years.

[00:56:15]>> And he had all the names and addresses, phone numbers of all the other election judges. And he said, "Well, do you know this guy?" And I'm like, "No." And he says, "Well, he was in Vietnam doing secret operations >> number one."

[00:56:33]>> And get this, they were being overrun and he got shot in the neck and he was in a hand-to-hand fight and he was captured and then he escaped. So, you've got all this stuff building to a crescendo. And I'm like, David, this guy's a fraud. He He's like I said, I guarantee you if if he ever even saw a day of combat, that's the extent of it. Getting shot in the neck, knife fighting, P escape. Come on.

[00:57:20]And this is somebody that lives within probably five or six miles of where I'm at. And god forbid if I ever run into this guy. I'd never heard his name. So the likelihood of running into him slim to none. Well, I don't know cuz in the next election he's an election judge.

[00:57:38]>> I was just fixing to say >> so.

[00:57:44]Hopefully he doesn't wear a a com I I would hope he doesn't wear combat shirts or have a C shirt or or whatever. Uh since he was in the Marines and all of that. That is insane that >> Oh yeah.

[00:57:59]>> Yeah. But there's And everybody wants to say they were inside.

[00:58:05]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Batman seals. There were a mill there were 30,000 seals and so men and uh it it seems like they're all coming out of the woodwork now.

[00:58:16]>> I saw some a picture on Facebook yesterday of a guy with all these medals in his dress uniform and he's got a sogg number one. We never wore those on our uniform and a seal trident >> and all this all this crap. So, you know, the guy's bogus is a $3 bill.

[00:58:39]>> Yeah. I mean, some of these guys, I hate to say it, you can just look and and and tell after you've seen enough of your guys' uniform and what to look look for, you know, it it it just pops out immediately of guys that are when when you see somebody claiming to be a commando or what have you, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I really feel sorry for I say kids um family members that their person has passed away and that person who passed has for years told these stories about they did this this and this and you can just tell they were all in SOG, you know, and you do the research like with Steve Sherman no record of him ever even being in special forces.

[00:59:34]>> And it would break my heart to have to tell some family member that all the [ __ ] you've been hearing for the last 30 years is not true. I I couldn't I don't know that I could do it. I probably would, but that would be a very difficult um thing. Um >> and now that Steve's got all of that out, it's so easy. you know, it it was, you know, guys in the the 70s and 80s.

[01:00:00]I've heard stories from you guys about running into people that, you know, if if they if you didn't know at that time, if you didn't serve, none of the books were out or anything like that. They had enough lingo. Evidently, they'd been around somebody in the service. They said FOB or or whatever.

[01:00:18]>> Fortune magazine.

[01:00:19]>> Oh, there to do was read that.

[01:00:21]>> There you go. and guys would pass it off, but in a moment's note, y'all could you can you can tell it. It's just you you can tell.

[01:00:30]>> Yeah. So, >> and yeah, I forgot about the Soldier of Fortune crowd. Boy, God almighty.

[01:00:37]>> I I learned in 1980 81 around that time frame when I discovered Soldier of Fortune magazine. I learned so much about SOG.

[01:00:49]Yeah. Right.

[01:00:50]>> Yeah. you know, and >> warned and in and quotations they did have every now and again they they would get a guy that uh that that was in and because you could recognize some of the stories. I've got one of the Jerry Shrivever specials of a CCS vet and uh but some of those stories just make your skin crawl reading them. Well, and you know, it was still part of the 20-year non-disclosure back.

[01:01:20]>> Oh, yeah. So, you didn't I mean, you didn't know, especially then, but now, boy, you can all you got to do is look up get to Steve's books or uh the digital copies. Oh god, we're about to have to wind up. And you can uh you can nail I mean now mind you it's not a master list cuz some guys died or some guys were TDY and not even recon meaning TDY but we're TDY doing radio stuff or blah blah blah that aren't in there but for the most part that's the most comprehensive list there is but uh yeah um so guys we've uh we only covered the very tip top of this list right here and we've still got all of that. So, next week what we're going to try and do is or what we're going to do is me and Terry will be back on, but we're trying to see if Jason um Jason's out uh doing a little bit of uh work today and we're going to see if he's going to be free next week and we're going to see if uh Jason can join us to cover another section because I imagine we'll only get through a portion of it because there's uh we've got some good topics to talk about on this list. My thought was to Bud was besides he and I, if we had another person that was not in SOG or anything like that, but follows it and has a lot of knowledge, um, as a third person to kind of maybe stimulate some of the conversations on the subjects. I thought maybe that might be a good way to go. So, we're gonna try if we can get him on and if we can't get him on, we may get somebody else on.

[01:02:59]>> Yeah, absolutely. I keep telling people if they want to hop on and do a show or a BS session with me, they're more than welcome uh to hop on. This is a community channel after all. So, anybody's more than welcome. There's been a few conversations from some folks about wanting me to come on every week and we do a weekly show and Bud has kind of mentioned it a little bit and we just haven't ever gotten it put together, but that might be on the burner too. It's not up to me, but >> yeah, I've got a few interviews I'm working on at the moment that are uh well, I'll spill the beans. I've got Doc Quackenbush from CCS who's finally agreed to do one, but he's not gonna do a live one. I'm gonna have We're gonna record it and I'll put it out. It'll be on camera, but we're not going to do it live. He's uh he doesn't think he doesn't think he's interesting enough.

[01:03:56]And there he was, a chase medic, and was on the ground and uh did did some heavy [ __ ] stuff. Uh y'all y'all will very much enjoy it. He's a very, in fact, too humble of a guy. Uh, Terry, you'll you'll love it as well. So, we've got uh Doc Quackenbush coming up and I am talking to Jeff Macherry from CCC at RT Washington to uh see about him coming on. So, as soon as I finish those two and setting that up and I'm finishing a Force Recon book, but once I finish that, we'll be able to start getting stuff rolling on a weekly basis again, >> you know, and a lot of us You got to think about personalities, too. Um, I'm I'm pretty uh relaxed just talking, what's the term? Exemporaneously, off the cuff, you know, and thinking quick on my feet. But really behind the scenes, with a few exceptions, I think all of us who were in Sag are really kind of we're really proud of the fact of what we did and we're not wanting to brag. I've made it pretty clear I'm not interested in writing a book or trying to sell my books or sell my podcasts or any of that kind of stuff. Um, and I think that holds true for the majority of us.

[01:05:26]>> Mhm.

[01:05:26]>> But it's also um kind of a relief, a reliever, whatever, stress reliever to talk about it. Uh, some guys don't want to talk about it and I understand that, but I I've never had a problem talking about it. And and you guys that have listened to me drone on and on for the last couple years know I am not going to sit here and tell stories and try to convince you that I'm some kind of war hero. And you know I'm just going to tell it like it is. You know and if you want to say that all of us that were in SOG were heroes that's fine and dandy. But we didn't do it because we thought we were heroes. We did. We did it because we wanted to do it. So, >> okay, we got to let Bud go. Got to get to the vet.

[01:06:20]>> Alrighty. Well, that is our plan. Um, I'll be Today's only Wednesday. I'll get in touch with you over the weekend and we'll see if I and I'll get with Jason also to see if we can go ahead and pick out a date for next week or if he knows his schedule. Uh, and if he doesn't, we might just go ahead and pick a date and then if we hear from him and we have to change it, we'll change it. So, uh, >> yeah. Um, ne, let's see. Next, I have absolutely I got a doctor's appointment Monday morning at 8:00, but that's a short ones. I got absolutely nothing next week, so I'm wide open. So, >> excellent.

[01:06:58]>> We'll put it together.

[01:07:00]>> Excellent. All righty, guys. Well, >> thanks everybody.

[01:07:02]>> We will see y'all next week. And, uh, I hope y'all have a good rest of y'all's day. I might We might end up doing something later on in the week. I don't hold me to that. But uh if not, we'll definitely see y'all next week. So y'all have a great day and we'll see y'all later. See y'all.