Let’s remove all these leaders, it is not a matter of one or two terms — Joakim Simiyu

追加: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]Morning. Secretary General of the Safina Party is Joim Simu and he joins us this morning. Jokim, good morning.

[00:00:05]>> Good morning.

[00:00:06]>> How are you doing?

[00:00:07]>> I'm doing well.

[00:00:07]>> Khalib Busana, >> and you?

[00:00:09]>> Uh, we're doing okay.

[00:00:10]>> We are doing well.

[00:00:11]>> Yeah. As you came in, of course, you know, uh, getting up to date with some of the things that happened this morning.

[00:00:16]>> I get it.

[00:00:17]>> Yes. Um, and so just then being able to to report on that and while that goes on, the National Prayer Breakfast is happening this morning. So, you know, um, all roads lead in that direction for for that to happen. you know, I'm sure you'll have a thing to say about that.

[00:00:31]Uh, but Karibusana to the hot seat and we're going to be looking uh today into a number of things. The Moni budget in terms of, you know, where should money actually be going or what should we be looking into? But before we look into all of that, um, Dennis, we welcome you with today's proverb. We'd love to get your interpretation of it.

[00:00:48]>> It comes from the Gambia, the home of Kaint Island, which is formerly known as James Island. and it is a world heritage site u due to his historical waypoint uh position during the trans transatlantic slave trade in Gambia when you go to elect you don't use ballot papers okay >> you use pebbles >> pebble >> you use pebbles um to elect the president and that they have said is our way of democracy this is how we will choose our leaders and the citizens have agreed it >> is not expensive >> Kenya can learn a thing or two but let's go to the proverb The disobedient foul obeys in a pot of soup. The disobedient foul obeys in a pot of soup. How would you interpret it?

[00:01:34]>> The inob obedient fall?

[00:01:36]>> Yes.

[00:01:38]Obeys in a pot of soup.

[00:01:40]>> Yes.

[00:01:41]>> Do falls love soup.

[00:01:44]>> Oh, they they are part of soup.

[00:01:46]>> They are part of soup at some point.

[00:01:48]>> Oh, they are part of soup.

[00:01:50]>> So you can prepare soup with it. Yes.

[00:01:53]>> Okay. Uh and it's in obedient.

[00:01:57]>> Yes.

[00:01:58]>> So you have to co it >> which means that you have to come up with your own ways of making it >> a part of soup.

[00:02:07]>> Part of soup.

[00:02:09]>> So uh the it's obedience or in obedience is still in your hands. It's you to decide.

[00:02:15]>> Mhm.

[00:02:15]>> Yep.

[00:02:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's my best way of interpretation.

[00:02:20]>> All right. Indeed.

[00:02:22]So um as SG of of the Safhina party and also looking at what some of I mean it's very you know no sides taken but very clear from the very beginning what Safhina has been talking about for the longest time and that that is you have to sort out the economy. You have to make sure that you're not paying debt towards where it shouldn't be in terms of odious debt and you have to make sure that you're actually putting money in the pockets of Kenyans. It has not been very it's it's not far removed from that. It has been very clear.

[00:02:49]>> Yes. Uh there's a this we're in budget period. Budget has already been set. The finance bill which give life which gives life to the budget is what is currently being discussed. Yes. And whether it will then become an act and then we know how Kenya's going to spend get borrow it money for the next one year.

[00:03:04]>> Yes.

[00:03:04]>> Is it a moni budget?

[00:03:06]>> It's not. It's not because um I I can see most of the discussions are based on the finance bill in this budget making process. But before we even look at the finance bill, the questions we need to ask ourselves is why do we need a finance bill? In what circumstances is the finance bill relevant >> in this whole process? Because in my understanding is that um when you table budget before parliament, you have to highlight um the expenditure the projected expenditure of government >> in the coming financial year. So it's detailed uh state departments these uh health these everything. So we know how much we need to spend. Then on the other side you have to also highlight the revenue streams that we have which means you have to highlight estimates of revenue. So you have to tell us where we are going to get how much are we going to get money from fees, how much are we going to get from uh licenses, how much are we going to get from taxation and the customs.

[00:04:13]>> So once we know that now because um the the these two sides have to budget uh have to balance the expenditure side and the revenue side.

[00:04:28]When there is disparity that the two sides are not in balance then that's when you now introduce a finance bill to create to amend the existing tax uh regime to get some more money so that it balances with the expenditure side. So in this budget that we are discussing do we have revenue estimates table stabled in parliament? We do not know which with which shortfall we are we are we are covering with the finance bill >> before so before we even discuss the content of it. What is its relevance in this whole project >> because how much are we projecting to raise with our revenue?

[00:05:14]How much are how much are we projecting to spend and what's the shortfall?

[00:05:19]>> Well, they mean they've told you already you're going to raise some 3 something trillion and then you're going to borrow maybe 1.1 trillion. That's you need to borrow 1.1 trillion in order to make the 4.8 trillion shilling budget. 4.82 trillion shillings is what the budget looks like this year.

[00:05:37]>> Mhm.

[00:05:38]>> You have a shortfall already been estimated of 1.1 trillion shillings. So by and large that is what is going to be borrowed whether it will be borrowed domestically or or externally you know >> now in that budget have they highlighted the domestic borrowing estimates so that document does not have it.

[00:05:59]>> So when parliament passes that document it means that it will be without any estimate of borrowing internally.

[00:06:06]So there will be no vote head on any domestic borrowing.

[00:06:09]>> Mhm. So any domestic borrowing that shall be done in the next financial year will be illegal.

[00:06:15]So they are setting ground for another audience debt of domestic the domestic one in the next financial year. So any coin that will be borrowed next year is already the ground has been set for it to be >> and again that that uh revenue estimates it's not there in that book in that document tabled by >> he can he can he can he can table it if he wants but he has not we do not know how much money we are going to get from tax uh from customs duty.

[00:06:53]how much money we are going to get from VAT.

[00:06:57]So even as we talk about um um the finance bill coming to amend the existing uh acts to create some more coin we need to understand those estimates where are they?

[00:07:11]>> Yeah >> because those are the those are the the the estimates that shall be passed by parliament. So without them why do we need this document >> and a finance bill is not a compulsory document in our budget making process.

[00:07:26]If we already have a debt going to 13 trillion why do we need a budget of 4.8 I mean how much are we if we are going to get a lot of money from our own taxes it will not be beyond 2.6 trillion and our budget is 4.8 date.

[00:07:46]So where do we get the 1.1 and to we already have a date of 13 trillion? 13 which means in the next financial year before it's over will be 14 something >> so until when >> I mean Jack you've raised something that is critical in terms of the finance bill and the estimates of what debt will be borrowed domestically. How important, how critical is it for that to be there for that finance bill then to be legal or even this debt that will be borrowed to be legal?

[00:08:22]>> It means that whatever we are going to borrow will not be approved by parliament.

[00:08:27]>> So without the approval of parliament there is no way you can bind that debt to a sovereign of the country because our representatives are in parliament.

[00:08:37]Those are the ones who are going to look at the numbers and approve it on our behalf.

[00:08:44]So in the absence of those numbers, what are the members of parliament passing?

[00:08:50]Because every borrowing has a vote head.

[00:08:53]So we are borrowing 200 billion to refurbish roads. So without it in the books, why are we borrowing it for what?

[00:09:04]So that that gives them a leeway to borrow to pay the existing debts because when they put it there, they have to highlight why it's there.

[00:09:15]>> And now that it's not there, they can borrow for anything.

[00:09:19]They can borrow to pay debts. I can borrow to um um pay SGR operation oper operations because uh recently I came to realize that the railway development levy they used 18 billion of it to pay as operator. This is interesting because okay so we see that there's a little bit joim so maybe you can make some you know inferences from here that they project to borrow 890 billion shillings domestically in 2026 2027 um the the revised estimates puts net domestic borrowing at about 890.4 4 billion for 2026 2027. Later, Treasury and budget policy revisions increase the project uh the projection to around uh 1 trillion um which is about 4.8% of the GDP. Um parliamentary debt committee reports also referenced on implied domestic borrowing requirement of about a trillion shillings 2026 2027. So looking at the 1.1 trillion it would seem as though only 100 billion would come ex would be debt that is borrowed externally which we already know is the cheaper option. M >> domestic debt is significantly more expensive than external debt. But that of the debt burden that there will be in this budget of 1.1 trillion, >> 1 trillion of that is going to come from the domestic more expensive debt.

[00:10:49]>> And even um what's the effect of um of now the government looking inwards to borrow >> it it has a cing a crowding out effect so that anywhere it's only government that has access to credit and when they come back to borrow domestically what are they borrowing? Whose money are they taking?

[00:11:09]>> Where are they borrowing from? They're going to the banks. Whose money are is in the banks? It's our savings. So, they are going to borrow our savings which shall be paid by our taxes.

[00:11:22]So, um and that's why we are saying that when government keeps on borrowing internally, it's going to hurt our economy more and more and more.

[00:11:33]>> And why is that? Because we know that if we look at how economies have been built around the globe, >> it's the private sector that is an economy economic driver, right? So that means what you do is that when we talk about all this nice talk about how the government has to make a conducive environment for business to grow. That's the conducive environment that we're talking about access to credit making sure that ease of doing business is an actual reality. But it's the MSMES that's why that attention is there >> that actually build >> the economy. Some of the global giants that we speak of today they are private companies who may have some government share at some point because of the how they have grown but they're essentially private companies that started in somebody's garage or that you know somebody was you know uh decided well let me see if I can manufacture a vehicle. So governments would be then supporting the economy. So if you crowd out funding that goes to government, what are you doing to the credit that should be available for these MSMES that we talk about who should naturally then be able to go to local banks to get credit because they can't go to XM bank as a guy who makes you know >> how how do you do that?

[00:12:50]>> It's too late for them to do anything.

[00:12:52]when we were shouting um tauru at least there was a a breathing gap the the the government could uh do some adjustment programs to make sure that they now spar the private uh sector so that it becomes the driver of the economy >> but it's too late for William R now to do anything >> because because um how much are we making and how much are we using to pay debt >> so The pressure he has on paying debt pushes him further into our pockets.

[00:13:28]Now, um when they come for our income and they tax everything and they realize it's not enough, they now begin making haircuts on our profits in our businesses.

[00:13:39]>> That's why they are trying to introduce how they are going to get something out of the transaction costs uh safar has whenever we do any transaction. So this one um when they started borrowing heavily um in William in Uhur Kata's regime that's the time they could have rectified things. Right now anyone in this government is not in position to do any corrective measures.

[00:14:08]It's not that they don't know these things they know but they are part of the mess. So trying to uh rectify the mess is to uncover the tracks they have spent years covering.

[00:14:23]>> So if we say President R to deal with the issue of debt, he's incapable of doing it.

[00:14:30]>> Because it means that he has to go back from 2014 yesterday. Was it yesterday?

[00:14:34]The day before yesterday, I saw Aaron Cheruyot responding to President Uhuru after he was seen after he spoke in the delegates meeting of Jubilee.

[00:14:45]>> Mhm.

[00:14:45]>> And Aaron Cheryot hinted that he's convinced to believe that the order general's report of 2015 saying that the first Euro bond did not half of it did not come to Kenya could be true. But what Cheruyot was forgetting is that his own boss, President Rheimently defended that Eurobant and he said any imagination that it was lost is nonsense.

[00:15:12]>> Mhm.

[00:15:13]>> So in his attack to hur kata he was forgetting that he was also throwing jabs to his own boss.

[00:15:21]So that's where the rain started beating us.

[00:15:25]>> Today they cannot they Yet, Joim, we find ourselves every year with the finance bill that then informs um taxes that would be put in place to help raise funds to pretty much move the country forward. And in this finance bill 2026, um many say it is not monetary friendly because of the additional taxes. Say um in the digital economy, there's tax that has been added there. You talk about um EV market as well because that was meant to make it easier for the country to move. There's tax that is there as well on on solar panels.

[00:16:03]>> You talk about um um mobile money, digital taxes, income tax adjustments, energy transport >> and many say the country that we find ourselves in today, our problem is not on revenue, it is on expenditure. And in the finance bill, we're not seeing any adjustments in the expenditure side to say that we know that we are in the red, we are raising taxes, but we are also cutting XYZ to make us retain more to spend within the country for development and all that. So from where you sit, can Wanch today say this is pro us in any way? Because at the end of the day the people who will be implementing whenever it becomes an act of parliament is oneanchi. when when this m budget making is made the last person on their mind is manangi that's why when William ruced the other day fuel by 10 shillings you saw IMF making noise >> saying that if he continues doing that he's distorting markets market prices and then he's most likely to default on the maturing loans before the end of June. Mhm. So this budget is not made in the best interest of us as Kenyans.

[00:17:32]If it used to happen like that, I think it's a few years ago. Today it's trying to milk anything out of us as people to cover the the the the obligations they have on the table. So it's upon us as the people to look at these documents and decide that the only thing that is pro us is rejection of these proposals so that we can come up with other ones.

[00:17:58]>> Otherwise when we let them to decide for us we are cooked because it's not in our interest why they are sitting.

[00:18:07]It's in the best interest of how do we and actually the reason why we talk about debt every day is because it's the biggest issue we have um before 30th June the government needs 800 billion >> to pay debt >> in in in in our own revenue we cannot raise more than 500 so why do they need 300 billion that's why they have come for diesel If they are not going to get that 300 billion, they will securitize what they have, which means they will use it as security to obtain a bigger loan, >> collateral for more money.

[00:18:49]>> Yes.

[00:18:49]>> To pay this one, which means we are even robbing Paul to pay Peter.

[00:18:55]>> Is no longer borrowing from Paul to pay Peter. You're >> robbing him.

[00:18:59]>> Yeah. We rob him. So if we continue like this, we are going to to to a grinding halt.

[00:19:10]>> So what does a hard stop look like when the coach says, "Okay guys, time out.

[00:19:13]Stop it. You're doing a total mess."

[00:19:15]Yeah. And then you call the team to the huddle. What's being said in that huddle that needs to happen in order for things to turn around? You said it's too late.

[00:19:22]There's nothing that William R can do for them. But then there must be something if you're spiraling out of control in the way in which you look at it. Because no matter how thin you slice it, the truth of the matter is that even if there are two sides to this thing, you cannot operate optimally with the kind of debt that Kenya has and the obligations that it has to pay. So what do you do?

[00:19:41]>> What it's now not on on them, it's on us.

[00:19:48]for them. Uh out of the money they have looted from these borrowing things, they have constructed their safety boats.

[00:19:57]>> In case of uh total collapse, they can jump on their safety boats and and and rush to some safe heavens. It's now on us as the people >> to come up with other ways of of of correction to this mess. And the only chance we have is 2027.

[00:20:22]We mess with that one, we will have ourselves to blame because we will have to look among the people who want to lead government differently.

[00:20:33]Who has the capacity to deal with the issue of debt?

[00:20:38]Because it doesn't matter who sits on that chair.

[00:20:42]the first thing they are going to face it's not a anything else it's the books from treasury so how do you fix it and I think this is the thing >> that even if let's if you propel yourself into the future how do you fix this problem because let's look at the problem right >> you have 100 shillings right now give or take 70 of that goes to debt you've got 30% left you've got 30 shillings left recurrent expend gobbles up quite a chunk of that and then you've got you know um development all of these things to be done. So it's not it's not that it's not enough. I mean it's a blip on the reality that is not even there. You can't even sniff it what is left for you to then be able to run the country if you're spending more than 50% of your revenue on debt repayment.

[00:21:35]>> Those are the problems. So who and how do you come in to fix this thing? you when you look at that one item that is taking more than 80% of what we produce >> debt you owe it you have to pay it >> now you you now interrogate that debt >> why is it always going up >> Mhm. Even as we are being told we are paying why do we end up with bigger numbers even as we pay.

[00:22:04]>> So according to us a very huge chunk of the debt we are paying is illegal.

[00:22:12]>> It was not obtain remember I told you like this budget that was tabled before parliament it has no domestic debt estimates. So any debt that shall be borrowed next year will be illegal which means it's not on us to pay it.

[00:22:30]So that's where you say no we have to audit the debt that we have and see what is legal for us to pay and what's illegal for us not to pay.

[00:22:41]So if we are not going to face it that radically >> there is no other way for us. If if anyone else has any other way then they then let them come and tell us. I mean Jackie when you look at the finance bill right now um the way it's been tabled we know it's it'll be tabled on the on the floor of the house for discussions and further amendments into into the same are you saying that the current parliament as currently constituted does not have the tarity to look deeper into that finance bill and make the necessary changes that would turn that finance bill to make sense to minci to businesses because manufacturers in the country have warned that if the finance bill is passed as is they will have to restructure because cost of doing business will be high. It will not only result to unemployment but it will make cost of living in the country to be high. My question again is can the parliament can or can't it or is it unable to deal with this finance bill and make the necessary changes before it becomes an act of parliament.

[00:23:46]>> Pick any member of parliament that comes first on your head.

[00:23:53]That didn't take too long. Okay.

[00:23:54]>> Yeah.

[00:23:55]>> Can they really withstand this? What's their interest in these documents we are talking about? If it's a budget, a member of parliament is only concerned about does it have CDF?

[00:24:07]Is my CDF there? The rest is for you to make noise about it.

[00:24:15]You see members of parliament speak in in parliament uh in in public spaces and they are paying uh uh how do we call it loyalty to the president. They are not there to serve us. Ideally they should but they are not which means that anything that come from the executive is yes and amen for them.

[00:24:38]So uh someone like my friend Dor um who is telling us options of reducing taxation.

[00:24:51]He forgets that the reason why government needs that money is because of the debt it has. Some of the debts were passed when he was budget chair. M >> so these illegalities some of them were passed dur when he was a chair of the budget committee. So for example, if the government reduces the taxes that he proposed to reduce that's why um what's his name Junet Muhammad um said that how do we pay this debt you see it's not about any other expenditure Junette was very categorical when we reduce those taxes tell us how what is the alternative for us to raise money to pay the debt and He accused him that some of the debts they are paying they were taken when he was chair of budget committee and he was defending the government for borrowing.

[00:25:47]>> Mhm.

[00:25:48]>> So today when he uh proposes uh relief for us the question then goes to him how do we pay the debt? So it doesn't matter which uh which formula we have like the other yesterday I saw my good friend uh at >> saying the people earning below 60,000 should be given tax relief.

[00:26:14]>> Mhm.

[00:26:15]>> It's to me it's a genuine proposal and I would actually wish that it it's affected because most of the people are below that bracket.

[00:26:26]>> Yeah. But again those are the targets.

[00:26:31]Those people below that who are earning small small money are the ones the government is targeting to raise one more coin to pay the debt.

[00:26:41]So however genuine it is I am afraid it's not going to happen.

[00:26:47]>> You saw the issue of will it's better for the president to come up with another promise and say I will reduce next year next month. Let us first deal with your insurance issues.

[00:27:02]>> Because he's looking for an extra coin to pay debt. I I wonder I wonder you see if I was President R, I would just I would not v for a second term because it's a disaster.

[00:27:16]I I don't I don't know why.

[00:27:18]>> But could you say that if the interest was for the people? If the interest was for the people then I >> go ahead and vibe. But in this case what you're saying it's clear that there's no interest to be able to secure the livelihoods of Kenyans. So now >> it's not about us.

[00:27:33]>> Whatever they are doing is not about us.

[00:27:35]They are they are asking us how do we help more.

[00:27:38]>> So they are coming back and ask what is left from you. They are not looking at how you you earn more. No what are you left with >> that you can take.

[00:27:48]>> Yes. Because if they are coming on they are looking at how they they can get money from cryptocurrency.

[00:27:56]They are telling us there is nothing private about financial records. I think financial records everyone guts their finance records very jealous.

[00:28:07]>> So how do you tell me that you are going to assume that 60% of the profit I've made from my business should give be given to you >> is is is dividends to other people. So I have to declare >> and failure to declare it you charge me 1 million.

[00:28:24]I I mean >> Joim we talk about debt that the country finds itself in it's 12 some 12 trillion almost 13 trillion and that is expected to rise because like many say if you have a deficit that is already debt accumulated because you have you have to you have to borrow. Now with the maturing loans that we do have at the moment, can we can the government renegotiate and can that should that as well be included in the finance bill on some of the strategies the government is putting in place with regard to the debt that is there and will that then >> make would that make it easier for 1 in in the long run. So how for how long do you renegotiate?

[00:29:10]>> Because they are maturing this month, they will mature next month and the next month and the other one.

[00:29:17]>> So do you keep on renegotiating >> and and you you realize that the lenders are the same people? So you renegotiated for the month of June, July you want to renegotiate to what end?

[00:29:32]You see that's why we are saying there needs to be a radical approach.

[00:29:38]Are these debts even legal before we even talk about renegotiating?

[00:29:42]>> Are we supposed to pay and joy what stops the government of Kenya from coming out and telling Wananchi? There has been conversation around Odia's debt and the legality of the debt that we do have. There has been calls to that pushes for um forensic audit by the auditor general to tell the country where we stand with regard to the debt.

[00:30:05]Why is it that the government does not want to come out clean with regard to that debt? What would that do to the credibility of the government of the day?

[00:30:15]>> Look at the people in government and where are they where do they come from?

[00:30:19]They didn't just show up. They've been with us for quite some time. I remember um the at one time the auditor general saying that the problem she's facing is limited information access.

[00:30:32]>> So she cannot actually come up with um a credible opinion on the budget uh on on the numbers provided >> that they are not providing information to her. So it's actually difficult for her to do any audit because the books are not available. And again, who are the people that are supposed to provide those books? Are they culpable in this whole story?

[00:30:58]>> Because when we look at today uh the minister for treasury, John Baddy is part of the genesis of the whole problem.

[00:31:07]>> When when Aden Dwali >> brought an amendment bill on the public finance management act in 2014, >> who seconded that motion?

[00:31:18]>> John Baddy.

[00:31:19]>> John Baddy. What was the amendment bill about?

[00:31:22]>> To bypass the consolidated fund.

[00:31:24]>> Yes.

[00:31:25]>> That any money borrowed from outside the country >> didn't have to pass through.

[00:31:28]>> He didn't have to pass through the consolidated fund.

[00:31:30]>> Mhm.

[00:31:31]>> So if we are talking about now making it work, who do we go to? The CS for Treasury. Is he willing to engage in that conversation?

[00:31:39]>> Unfortunately, >> no. Who is the governor for CBK >> Kamal Thug?

[00:31:46]>> Who was Kamaluga at the time we were amending the bill? He was peers for finance.

[00:31:52]So he's part of the problem. The accountant general of government at that time was called Bernardong.

[00:31:58]>> He still works at treasury.

[00:32:00]>> The people who defended that decision in every media house is now president.

[00:32:06]>> So when we say that government can actually deal with this issue, who is government if not those people have mentioned? So because then you're going to have to ask the difficult question then will I want to then interrogate or investigate myself >> because if somebody's asking me if this debt makes okay so let's let's >> split this question because how then do you then um you know suggest to investigate yourself and we've already established that that's quite difficult but then how do we find out if debt is actually authentic if we can use that word because we know the two instances under which Kenya can borrow. I mean, we say this over and over until we're blew in the face. We know what constitutionally has been >> um set out as conditions under which Kenya can borrow. Now, if you have uh 13 trillion shilling debts over 15 years, okay, >> give or take about a trillion a year, that's what it looks like. And we know that some of that goes towards interest.

[00:33:09]However, the case in which you can borrow budget-wise is if you have a short-term budget deficit, 90 days maximum, it doesn't go to 13 trillion. So, it's for development. Would it be too naive to say that if you look around the country and you're not able to pinpoint projects that match with the lines in the development uh book about where this money was supposed to go? Does that suffice to say then that this debt is odious? If we have established what the law says, if we have established that money came in in form of debt that was attached directly to this project because that's how it's supposed to be done. If we cannot see the physical manifestation of this project for which this money has been tagged to this line, does that suffice to say then that this debt is odious?

[00:34:06]>> Yes, it was borrowed against the law.

[00:34:08]Let me give you the latest example of a borrowing that was not meant used for the intended purpose.

[00:34:18]>> In in December last year as we were preparing for transition of grade 10 learners.

[00:34:26]>> Yes.

[00:34:26]>> So the government goes and borrows 28 27.8 billion.

[00:34:30]>> Mhm.

[00:34:31]>> So that it comes and helps us to uh do transition.

[00:34:35]>> From whom?

[00:34:36]>> From World Bank.

[00:34:37]>> Okay.

[00:34:38]So they borrow um um 27.8.

[00:34:43]So the the purpose for this money is to make sure that no child pays to transition.

[00:34:50]>> Yes.

[00:34:51]>> That no parent in cars are cost and some of it is used was supposed to be used to prepare teachers >> and buy facilities that are necessary for transition.

[00:35:03]>> Teacher training.

[00:35:04]>> Yes.

[00:35:04]>> Yes.

[00:35:05]That money was borrowed and it came. Did you see any parent not paying for the transition of their children? No. No.

[00:35:14]>> Every parent paid the least. My mother used to uh was calling me for my lastborn brother. They needed 45,000 for his transition.

[00:35:25]So why did we borrow the 27? What was it used for?

[00:35:30]Because it's on that purpose that we are going to pay for it.

[00:35:35]So they borrowed it for our best interest. They used it for theirs but it's us to pay you know is if that's not an example of an audience debt then tell me what is because audience is illegal and joy based off that that the government knows very well that it borrowed and never used that money for the intended purpose whether you talk about euro bond way back in 2014 you talk about the debt that you just talked about from World Bank.

[00:36:12]The government is unwilling or cannot first of all publish the debt register so that Kenyans can interrogate it and is unwilling to give this information to the auditor general to look at the books and give a report of that >> because they know they will be caught pants down. So therefore even as we speak right now the government then is participating in an illegality because the constitution gives that mandate gives all the right to the auditor general to look at the books. That means everything else every finance bill that has followed and every debt that is borrowed that the auditor general cannot look at is an illegality.

[00:36:51]>> Yes. It's it's it's a whole illegal system.

[00:36:56]Which means when we say in safina that we have to forgive what we know what we are saying there is no hope for us here that's why we are asking when you shout one term and two term then what when you say one two term at least two term we know they are then what >> the then words more pain >> is they will keep coming for what is left of us so that's Why we asking our colleagues in opposition then what?

[00:37:30]>> What are we about? How different? How do we deal with this monster?

[00:37:36]It doesn't matter who you are, what you are doing, whether you have voted in office or not because my list worries nowadays is if we can defeat President R because that's guarantee we are going to defeat him. But what do we tell the people after that?

[00:37:57]Because you sit on that chair the first day, friends from IMF come to brief you on what you owe them.

[00:38:06]The the the the friends from Treasury come to brief the president on the financial situation of the country.

[00:38:13]Before you even finish the first month in office, you've borrowed illegally to pay salaries.

[00:38:18]>> Yeah.

[00:38:20]>> So, how different are you going to be from these ones?

[00:38:23]That's why we need boldness.

[00:38:26]That's why every Kenyan should join Safina. That's where their their salvation is.

[00:38:30]>> Because what we're talking about when you talk radically here, I always um liken it to um a disease that you need to cut out. You you're not having a conversation with this thing because it is eating you alive. That they say in order for us to get on a path to treatment, you need to cut out the cancer. You don't have a conversation with it.

[00:38:49]>> There's no conversation.

[00:38:49]>> So we talk about radical surgery that's needed. When you look at the fiscal space in which Kenya currently operates that there is an expenditure problem, there is an illegality unconstitutional issue that Kenya is dealing with. It doesn't matter what political side anybody is on, but that some of these things are glaringly obvious >> and that uh it is in the books. It's on paper. There's a trail. So, it doesn't matter where you are politically that there is a problem and the only way to then solve it is to be radical. But the question is I mean I think you already you've already tried to give us a bit of that answer is that who bells the cat who says okay you know what I have no friends here in order to save the country and its people there's certain things that must be done and it's not a question of can we shall we do it who is the one to do that is that akin to the question where you say if it's one term then what if it's two term then what but something needs to be done >> yes and we are saying what needs to be And we are the only people with the boldness to do it.

[00:39:52]>> Mhm.

[00:39:53]>> If there is anyone else who is talking about this issue with the boldness it deserves, then you can tell us.

[00:40:00]>> But I can say the only person who has no embedment on this issue who can deal with it the way it's needed to be dealt with, it's my party leader.

[00:40:13]>> It's Jimmy Wigi.

[00:40:16]That's why the government rarely responds to what he says because how do you respond to numbers? You have to come with your own version of it.

[00:40:24]>> Yeah.

[00:40:25]>> And they don't have it.

[00:40:28]So when we say that this number of this year alone in the next financial year, how much are we going to pay debt?

[00:40:36]>> When we say 2.4 trillion, how much are we going to raise in terms of taxes?

[00:40:40]2.6.

[00:40:41]>> We are left with 200 billion.

[00:40:44]200 billion cannot pay salaries for 3 months.

[00:40:49]So how do we make sure that operation and management is catered for? That's why the next president if it's not Jimmy will borrow illegally because operations and management will need 600 billion. Oh >> god check him. And you see the logical thing to do is don't pay all your debt. Yes.

[00:41:11]>> Don't pay all your debt. Don't be >> but with that conversation then many have said that they always angry guy as nu love saying Moody will come and categorize Kenya and say this is a country that has defaulted our ranking globally will be low not be seen in a is that a scare tactic >> yeah it's a scare tactic because we have not defaulted we have shown everyone why we should not pay >> why we don't owe them is different from defaulting defaulting is what you legally owe and you've not paid.

[00:41:46]So we have said that who borrowed it's not in even in our books like for example the the example I gave you >> if in our budget items we do not have estimates of domestic debt and you end up borrowing so is it our debt it's not >> so if these banks and they should pay attention because one day they will have to answer these questions when they lend to government do we have a vote head on it approved by parliament if it's not There will come a time when Kenyans will say we are not paying our pain and our source of pain is debt whether it's lack of capitation whether it's missing drugs with anything say it they have now introduced other other tax cuts on coffee and and and tea they will come and introduce something called national infrastructures >> infrastructure >> levy M so they are coming with other terms they are avoiding the word tax because we we don't want that now they are coming with other terms called levies if we do not approach this issue because when my party leader first talked about it he was the only person talking about it >> today how do government defend themselves even when you pressure John bad why do we need no taxes, the what debt shall appear somewhere when you listen to parliament and the other day I was very shocked that when the the question about fuel >> Mhm.

[00:43:25]>> was on the floor of the house, it was almost empty.

[00:43:30]>> Of course, >> almost empty because they were not discussing their issues. They were not discussing we are in two term and you are in one term. No, they were discussing issues to do with the well-being of the man.

[00:43:45]And that's why the benches in parliament were empty.

[00:43:51]So Kenyans can listen to us and see the only salvation they have is Safina party and I welcome them to register and join the ark because the floods are already here.

[00:44:06]>> Already here.

[00:44:07]>> The floods are already here. Far be it from you not to use that analogy uh for us to understand where we are. Jokim is not mincing his words this morning, but he's saying something needs to be done and we're the ones to do it.

[00:44:18]>> Thank you for being here this morning.

[00:44:19]>> Thank you very much.

[00:44:20]>> I look forward to more conversations with you. But >> yes, >> we're looking at the way in which the situation is going and we must talk.

[00:44:27]>> There will come a time when talking will no longer be enough.

[00:44:31]>> It's doing.

[00:44:32]>> It's doing.

[00:44:33]>> Absolutely.

[00:44:33]>> Yes.

[00:44:34]>> Joe Kim is the secretary general of Isafhina party has been here with us this morning. This is the situation room.