John Crowder & C. Baxter Kruger Rare Interview: Ancient Mysteries And New Mystics

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:05]I'm not sure there are two people alive [music] who've been more challenging to the evangelical Christian world when it comes to theology than Baxter Krueger and John [music] Crowder. To say Baxter and John are sort of controversial would be like saying that a nuclear bomb sort of makes a loud noise or that Elon Musk is sort of rich or the body of Christ has a minor case of cultural leprosy, which we do.

[00:00:29]>> [music] >> Parts of the body of Christ are falling off left and right. Some of the biggest names in the business who were as solid, at least as riveting to watch, as the Titanic have either grazed or slammed headlong into the iceberg of scandals, greed, lust, narcissism, and they're certainly more to come. But none of these are the reason these guys are controversial. Now, these guys have become notorious because they believe that God is good. really good, better than much of modern orthodoxy will actually allow, at least right now. Now, I travel a lot and one of the questions that I love to ask pastors is, who do you listen to? And what authors do you read? And in my journeys, I've discovered that a surprisingly large number of pastors and leaders answer that question by leaning in and lowering their voice. and as if we're under surveillance behind en enemy lines, say John Crowder and Baxter Krueger. It's not unusual for me to find on the shelf of a pastor's office books like The Great Dance, Cosmos Reborn, Mystical Union, Jesus and the Undoing of Adam, The Shack Revisited, The New Mystics, The Ecstasy of Loving God, and various other books that have been written by these guys.

[00:01:46]Diving deeper, I realized that for many pastors and leaders, it's more than just a guilty pleasure that they read or listen to John and Baxter. They've discovered the pleasure of being challenged by people who think the cross truly finished it all. And they love people who are smart and educated enough to actually defend that view. And John and Baxter both are. I've known these guys for many years now, and I'm often surprised by how many of people uh that I run into who assume to know exactly what they've believed. They hear a couple of things and they slap the blanket label of universalist on them and then cancel them altogether. You do know that we the church invented cancel culture, right? I mean, we used to burn people at the stake and now we just destroy them online, act like they never existed. But John and Baxter have actually stood the test. The test of scrutiny and the test of time. And if you give them a minute in a conversation, you might actually find out why. You don't have to agree with everything they say. I don't goodness, I don't agree with almost everybody I know. The reason they're still around, and the reason I call them friends, is that they don't shy away from the conversations about our Lord and Savior.

[00:03:05]And I always walk away from these conversations with a fresh assurance of this indisputable eternal reality. God is so much better than we could ever imagine.

[00:03:18]So on a warm windy afternoon in Consumi, Florida, I sat down around a patio table with John and Baxter. We had three recording devices and switching between them is what I did in the edit. I only switch between them so you can hear what they're saying while they're talking.

[00:03:36]And when I do that, it makes it sound like cuts or edits, but this conversation is presented to you as it happened, except for a handful of moments when the wind went out of control or the neighbor's weed eater was just overpowering. I guess we could have gone inside where it was nice and quiet, but listen, we were just in a place of being as comfortable as we would be if we were just having a normal conversation. And that's what I wanted this to be, a normal conversation with all the background noise and all the distractions. So that's what you get. So do me a favor if you would look past all the random wind, the table bumps, the wild bird noises, the sounds of traffic, and the sliding glass door that definitely need some WD40. This is raw vulnerability and unvarnished honesty from both John and Baxter about the moments in life that shaped where they are now. Now, I like to be challenged.

[00:04:28]And if you're listening to this podcast, then you probably do, too. So, welcome to a challenging conversation with John Crowder and Baxter Krueger.

[00:04:39]>> I feel like the most ignorant one at this table. Backter Krueger has forgotten more about theology than I've begun to learn.

[00:04:47]>> Probably.

[00:04:47]>> Yeah.

[00:04:49]>> It's not about theology. It's not about ideas. It's about a person.

[00:04:52]>> Yeah.

[00:04:53]>> Fact. In fact, JB Torrence, I was there when he retired and his last seminar that he did, he finished it and his career was officially, you know, over.

[00:05:05]And he sat down with two or three of us postgraduates and he said the last thing he said to us, we don't need Christologology, we need Jesus.

[00:05:19]>> Wow.

[00:05:19]>> We don't need pneumatlogy, we need the Holy Spirit. A better message never been preached.

[00:05:27]True then, true now. On the other side of this ancient glass table is a man I've actually Gosh, John, I don't think I've ever talked to you about this, but I've I've admired you from a distance for years. And then and then we met when I was on staff at a large church. You came through town in a somewhat foggy era >> a good decade ago. more than it's been 12 years now. Well, no, it was 2008.

[00:05:56]>> Wow. And then uh and you had a was I it was a gospel rodeo and you were sporting a as usual phenomenal facial hair uh and and a cowboy hat. And I remember you coming into the church completely undone in the glory and laid out on the front seats and everybody just got completely blitzed, whacked, undone in the presence of God. It was really interesting because I realized you were having an awareness. You were having a moment of awareness of something that I was unaware of and I realized the difference between the same sun that melts ice hardens clay. That I can be in a room with somebody who's undone by the presence of the Lord. They're aware of what I'm is available to everybody and they're taking advantage of what's within reach and I was not. And a simple reposting of my heart in that moment.

[00:06:49]And suddenly I found myself not just on the floor of the church, but at the end of the night, I think you and I were kind of laid out in a parking lot. At this point, we still hadn't really met.

[00:07:01]It was just a sort of a glory connection. And uh cell phone cameras were a brand new invention back then, but somebody snapped a picture of us.

[00:07:11]And you caught a bit of heat for that.

[00:07:12]>> I did. I did. I went into a church staff meeting the next day and it had been made public and uh Yeah. I never heard the end of that. Yeah.

[00:07:19]>> Yeah. And then years later, we actually ran into each other >> upright.

[00:07:26]>> Yeah. I may not be very famous, but I'm definitely infamous in some circles. And in the charismatic world, you're bit of a black sheep. And um you know, there was something of a renewal perspective people experience in Holy Spirit.

[00:07:46]something very mystical. And even for charismatics that are unfamiliar with that word mysticism, I it's it's a it's a biblical word. Paul uses the the Greek word mysterion 20ome times out of the 30 times it's used in the New Testament. Uh we're we're called to a very experiential and joyfilled tangible uh intimate relationship with the Lord. And and this is this is something that many charismatics will dip their toe into.

[00:08:19]And um you know I know for many years I was considered a very extreme fringe.

[00:08:26]The experientialism itself was sort of a stigma that was put on me. You know how do you take it too far? Well I don't know that any of us have really taken it too far but what we have done is we fabricated a lot of stuff over the years.

[00:08:38]>> Sure. And however deep we want to go experientially, I realized that the big problem was that we were we were trying to attain experience. We were trying to enter into a union that the gospel tells us is an already existent reality. you know, people who were familiar with the Toronto renewal in the '9s or, you know, the Lakeland stuff or what whatever over the years, you know, and and many people have different opinions over all that.

[00:09:10]Um, the problem is whatever language we want to put on it, ecstatic experience, drunk in the spirit. Uh, you know, I know those those words are not necessarily um kosher for a lot of people. Maybe they just want to call it filled with the spirit, slain in the spirit, baptized in the spirit. You know, a lot of Pentecostals, they they think they get touched once, fall on the floor, and it's all it's all done. They've got the spirit. Well, maybe you had the spirit before you realized it. And maybe you need to lay on the floor a little longer and stay there because it's about life in the spirit. It's about enjoyment. But the problem is we we think we have to do something to to access that to get in there. Prayer, fasting, all these things. and and and maybe there are some some good disciplines but but the issue is we we've missed this inherent gospel reality that thanks to Jesus were already completely united to him and uh even in those days with the uh the craziest you know fringy whatever you want to call it renewal type experiences people were trying to figure out how do I get drunk in the spirit how do I get into the glory whatever terminology you want to put on it um and and I had no problem using street terminology for people that didn't know the church language, you know, drunk in the spirit, high in the Holy Ghost, whatever. And I I got in trouble for that. But the issue is people are trying to figure out how do I do it? How do I get there? And the issue is if you're trying to do it, if you're trying to get in, that's called divination. You you can't work your way to God. That's the definition of religion.

[00:10:37]>> First problem in the garden.

[00:10:40]>> Eat this apple, then you will be like God. Do something, then you'll become who you already are. Do something, then you'll get what you already have. Eve already was made in the image of God.

[00:10:53]She was already we're already in the presence of God thanks to Christ. And so the the gospel, you know, I told people, I'm I'm not trying to have an experience. I'm I'm not looking for the experience of a lifetime. I'm living a lifetime of experience >> thanks to Jesus.

[00:11:09]>> Yeah. And so >> otherwise that works thing is it's the thief of John 10 that comes to steal, kill and destroy. We think it's the devil. But in the story of John 10 that Jesus is telling, you know, he's the door to the sheepfold, try to get in any other way. All of your religious efforts become the thief that ultimately people, you know, start out the Christian disciplines and the works from a servantthood posture of somehow somehow trying to attain what they already have.

[00:11:34]>> It's all based on the assumption of separation, >> right? And then with that assumption comes a perception of lack rather than an awareness of what we already have access to fully in Christ.

[00:11:44]>> And then comes any number of [clears throat] preachers who will tell you in your assumption of separation from Jesus, which the gospel declares that you're in union with him. But in your assumption, here's what you do.

[00:12:01]>> So we're going to lay it all out for you. Here's how you bring down the glory. Here's how you do. I'm like, oh my. Yeah. Oh my. Here's how you can be can make yourself in the image of God.

[00:12:12]>> I think that's actually one of the things, John, that that the very first time that I saw you, I mean, I went like a lot of people, I think, did to your meetings back in the day is it was we knew it was going to be different.

[00:12:22]wasn't your usual run-of-the-mill evangelistic gathering that uh none of us none of us knew anything about the the concept of we knew the idea of being drunk in the spirit from the Kenneth Hagen days >> but but it seemed like that that was sort of a bygone era that was being resurrected in a in a kind of a younger crowd that we're thinking what is is this real is this authentic and what I saw that night I don't think you even said a word that night uh you just laid out on the on the front during worship and you just had this joy and this blissed out awareness of the glory. And I just remember thinking into it going, "What is he aware of that I'm not? What is he what is he?" It just it kind of caught me into a place where it arrested my it arrested my consciousness, rested my attention into the moment where I go, God, if you're available in the room to be experienced on that level, shift my attention. And that was a moment where man, I just I had a tangible encounter with the Lord as I allowed myself to become aware of the presence that was available. And I I would say that my awakening to a personal awakening to an awareness of the mystery of union began not just in that that night, but began around that time.

[00:13:37]>> It's beautiful.

[00:13:37]>> Yeah. That was that's where the whole concept of distance and separation started sort of falling away because I thought you know I could have walked into this room and you know listened some words taken some notes turned around walked out and thought that was a good meeting and I had no conscious awareness of the presence that was available but then he didn't get available when I got in the room. He was already there.

[00:13:57]>> Yeah.

[00:13:57]>> All I had to do was witness somebody who was witnessing something or experiencing something that I wasn't.

[00:14:01]>> Well, he was there before you got to the room.

[00:14:03]>> Exactly. Exactly. The whole creation is a vast burning bush alive with the glory of the father, son, and spirit. We just don't see it. We don't even know that it's there, right?

[00:14:13]>> So, most of us are not even looking for it.

[00:14:15]>> Well, those of us who, you know, have a a charismatic background, um we we understand an appreciation for the supernatural, for gifts. And a lot of people, they they they try to present this balance. Well, it's not all about the gifts. It's about good character.

[00:14:33]And and that's true, but you're still missing the point. It's about Jesus. And I came from an interesting background because I I grew up in a very legalistic Pentecostal church, a a church of God, holiness, like ladies couldn't wear makeup or have short hair or wear pants or what, whatever. And so, you know, that that's what where my affinity for religion really developed, right? My my my love for this backward completely backward legalistic understanding. It was just it no honestly it turned me off and and so I um >> that was my dad's background the holiness movement he said we were part of the 4 age club hair hose ham and television that was he said that the holiness movement only lacked two things holiness and movement otherwise they were >> but there's only one way that you're going to have a holiness movement and that's by preaching the gospel declaration that you're already holy thanks to Jesus. I mean I mean how many tees do you cross and eyes do you dot in in uh R-rated movies that you avoid or whatever it may be before before you're holy? It's like you you how far are you?

[00:15:37]What percent holy are you? You know if I'm drinking my bottle of water here and it's 98% pure only 2% dog diarrhea. It's it's it's it's getting there. It's it's all there's no such thing as kind of pure sort of pure you know positionally holy. And this is this idea that that Jesus somehow it's all this separation.

[00:15:58]He he positionally made my spirit man holy, but really I'm a filthy mess and I've got to do 50 years of inner healing on my soul. And and we've we've missed the gospel. Our old man died with Christ. We're a new creation and and and we've been plunged into union. Doesn't mean we have it figured out. Doesn't mean we're doing everything perfectly, but ontologically in our being, we we're united with him. And he's he's given us we're only as holy as he is because he's given us his righteousness. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

[00:16:29]And this was the revelation that really started transforming me because I had a desire for uh experiential I I I uh one of the things that really rescued me was coming into the renewal in the '9s and um it got me free from all this legalistic religious background that I had. I I started realizing joy, the the the love of the father, the goodness of God, the tangible presence of God. And it and it had me looking outside realizing that, you know, I I I grew up thinking like many denominationalists that Pentecostalism is the only way. Uh you know, the the Presbyterians don't have the Holy Spirit. The Episcopalians don't have the Holy Spirit. You know, God didn't really pour his spirit out on all flesh, right? unless you went to some Isuza, you know, type of denomination.

[00:17:22]So, I I started uh diving into the the mystics of I didn't realize the church had this tradition of contemplatives that goes back to the very nine fathers and the apostles and and and you know, people don't like the word mysticism because they think you're talking about crystal balls and Ouija boards or or Harry Potter on a flying broom, but but again, this is a biblical thing. If you want to take the mysticism out of the gospel, you're going to have to take the virgin birth out. You're going to have to take the resurrection out.

[00:17:49]>> The Gospel of John, >> the miracles out. It's a mystical message. That that means we don't have it all figured out. Paul never says we're going to fully comprehend the mystery. God is ineffable. He's His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our heart. Matter of fact, it says his His ways as high as the heavens are above the earth, his thoughts are above ours. to think we can just figure him out and have this little rule book of maxims and this is how God works and this is how a Christian supposed to mow his lawn and whatnot.

[00:18:19]It's it's it's ridiculous. There's there's mystery here. There's contemplation. But but Paul says, not that we're going to understand the mystery, but the mystery has been revealed in Christ. He is the mystic secret. He says that's Colossians. I'm not making that word up. That that's Colossians. So I started I started realizing there's this deeper life. But the problem is you start reading a lot of the church mystics and just like in the charismatic world there are these sort of steps and formulas of how to get closer to God and how to get into the glory and how to go to this deeper level and it all ends up falling back upon you in this really humanistic sort of self-effort way. And >> but it sells books.

[00:19:05]>> It sells books. you give people form.

[00:19:07]You can't grace doesn't sell. You can't even give it away.

[00:19:11]>> It's but but everything we have is a gift of grace. It's it's all him. And and as I started coming to that revelation, honestly, um my the influence of mystical Christianity or charismatic Christianity, whatever word you want to use, supernatural, experiential Christianity, ended up ultimately pointing me more to a revelation of the trinitarian gospel of grace. And I know many people who are came from a a completely different background, a theological background. uh maybe like Baxter or somebody who they came more from the academic um arena and the the deeper they got into this revelation of the finished work of Christ and and the the the the love of the Trinity and our inclusion, our union with God thanks to Jesus, it ended up pointing them more into a a mystical type of experience. And so the two can't be separated, the experiential mystical and the theological. And and when I say theological, listen, I understand. You know, a lot of people they think theologians uh theology itself is bad. You say you're a theologian, they think you have a venerial disease or something. But it's not about theology is not bad. Bad theology is bad. Everybody has a theology. Theology just means your perspective of God. But is your perspective of God is he good?

[00:20:35]>> Right?

[00:20:36]Theology is a form of repentance, metaninoia, changing your mind, realizing and it transforms you. You realize how good he is. Um, how complete his work is, how holy you are thanks to him. That transforms everything. So then you're not trying to chase a carrot on the end of the stick and get anointed or grow some ministry, do whatever you you think it to get over there. No, you you're already in. You've arrived and it's not your fault. You have the fullness of God. Holy Spirit doesn't come in portions. He comes in person.

[00:21:06]You've got it all and it's not your fault. It's all thanks to him. So, so that for me has been in a nugget. Not to rant too much, but that's been my journey. Well, see, that's the glory of I mean the mystery of the gospel.

[00:21:21]Colossians says Christ in you the hope of glory. And uh the the verse somebody asked me actually it was Danny our mutual friend Danny asked me many years ago said what what is the scripture verse that >> Danny Orsier >> Orsier yes u said what's the scripture verse that grips you the most like it melts your mind the most and we were just kind of in this mode of many many years ago we was kind of in a transformational journey and uh and it took me a while to answer the question I finally came back to John 14:20 and >> and That's become that's become kind of a bit of a I tell people if there's one verse that you should actually commit to memory that would be a good one.

[00:22:00]>> Let's say it together.

[00:22:01]>> Yeah. In that day you will know realize you'll realize >> you will ganosco yah will >> I am in the father >> in my father.

[00:22:11]>> You are in me >> and I in you >> and I in you. I remember being on a cruise >> in the red letter. First time I ever met Baxter, we were on a cruise together, and they had a denominational group that was there, largely older audience, and I believe their worship leader was an Elvis impersonator and full-on spandex in all of its glory. And he was uh singing the hymns as sung by Elvis. And they had a couple of people standing outside uh passing out tracks and witnessing to the gamblers and drunks that were passing by on the cruise, >> the degenerate centers.

[00:22:45]And of course they approached Baxter >> and something to the effect of, you know, if you were to die right now, how would how do you know Jesus would let you into heaven?

[00:22:53]>> Baxter responds as I recall simply by quoting scripture.

[00:22:58]>> In that day, >> John 14:20, >> John 14:20. In that day, you will know I'm in the Father, you me, and I am in you.

[00:23:04]>> If it's up to you, how are you going to pull Jesus down from heaven and get him into your heart? How are you going to get the Holy Spirit of God into somebody?

[00:23:14]>> In my view, the assumption of separation from Jesus is the darkness.

[00:23:19]>> Yes.

[00:23:19]>> So, okay, I'm going to assume that he has united with me in my darkness. Now, the question is, what is preventing me from experiencing his union with me? And I think of that as a giant beaver dam inside of my soul, which amounts to horrendous theology.

[00:23:37]If you believe you're separated from God, you're not g and the father, son, and spirit. You're not going to be looking to experience that. But it's like, okay, Jesus began to show me. He says, well, first thing is actually at the bottom of the big beaver dam is the lie of separation. And you've agreed to it. So disagree with it. Say, I'm not separated. Jesus is my union. Okay, that's gone. Well, behind the dam is the the life of the trinity, the river of living water inside of our innermost being. Second big lie is my father is not good. Yeah, >> he is not good. He can be good if we can get him turned into being good. That's a lie. Break that third se third, you know, it starts and all of a sudden the beaver dam becomes uh starts being dismantled from the bottom up and the river starts flowing and the experience level our conscious awareness level rises with that.

[00:24:28]>> Separation is real. It's real in the sense of it is a delusion we've believed.

[00:24:34]>> David said, "If I go to the depths of hell, there you are. Where are you gonna run? Where you gonna hide?" Yeah.

[00:24:39]>> Bad boys, bad boys. What you going to do when he comes for you? He's everywhere.

[00:24:43]You you can't. But but it's it's that that delusion in our mind. That is the the constitution of what the fall is all about. Thinking that there's a bush like Adam that we could hide behind where God is not. It's not already on fire with his glory. As the early church fathers said, the whole world is a bush a flame with the glory of God.

[00:25:03]>> And I think for many of us, you know, with a charismatic background, we thought we had to bring the glory to the earth, bring revival, build the kingdom, all this kind of stuff. And and we're trying to pump it up and fast and pray and and work up this wave of of of glory. But the the scripture never says that one day the earth will be filled with the glory of God. What it says is one day, one day the earth will be filled with the knowledge, the awareness of the glory of God. Isaiah says heaven and earth are full of his glory. Separation is the lie.

[00:25:39]>> And religion not only backs that, but makes an industry of it. Here's the steps. Here's the books to buy. Here are the workbooks. Here, here are the formulas to bridge a gap that only Christ could could bridge.

[00:25:55]>> Here's how to pump up your faith. Work it up. I mean, how much faith is enough?

[00:26:00]You know, it's it's it's it's this rubber ruler. I mean, believe enough until you get a goosebump. Believe until you can walk on water. Believe until you stop beating your wife. I mean, what?

[00:26:10]Come on. It it's faith is important, radically important, but it's ultimately the faith of Christ, his faith in the father that we rely upon. It it's not our own. And when we come into that realization, there is profound rest, profound peace, and the transformation that we were all looking for.

[00:26:31]That's there's a there's a statement that's been going through my mind for years ever since just came into the beginning of the awareness of that union. And it's a statement uh I'd say you're one with God in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. And one day when I was I was talking to Baxter about this and you added a caveat at the end of it. You said and he did that. That was the change right there for me. One with God in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. when you said and he did that suddenly it was almost like the weight of relief.

[00:27:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. It was a relief of of just realizing it's not it's not up to me to to work my way into that union or even work my way into an understanding of that union. I can become aware of it and I can definitely work to that awareness and that awakening. But but the the relief was the the sense that 1 Corinthians 1:30 by his doing, by his desire, I am in Christ. And I had spent an entire lifetime with a checklist of >> all built on the assumption of separation.

[00:27:38]>> Right.

[00:27:38]>> I'm not there yet. I can be.

[00:27:40]>> Right. That union was a possibility that I should press to.

[00:27:44]>> Yeah. And now you're beholding to anybody that comes along that says, "Here's the secret to it." where the gospel announces to us the reality of union. Faith um his faith in us is first and foremost a discovery of that union as real. So what you believe is not that I can be but that he is and I am in him.

[00:28:04]Yes, >> I believing in Jesus's union with me.

[00:28:07]>> Faith doesn't make it real. Faith recognizes the reality something only he did. And and that's the sea of glass.

[00:28:14]That's the perfect piece. that inner sea of chaos and turmoil and self- condemnation and and and just absolute fragmentation that we all have experienced in our souls. Holy Spirit's hovering over that and wants to bring us to that perfect piece of reality of truth.

[00:28:36]You can't fabricate that. I've had this uh this picture going through my mind lately of Jesus on the road to Emmas with the guys and as he walks the seven mile journey get to the end and of course vanishes out of their sight when he breaks the bread the table and the phrase that they say and I've been talking a lot about this on the podcast is did not our heart burn within us while he talked to us on the road and I got done reading the story in Luke 24 and I felt the Lord take my attention all the way back to Genesis 1 where it says the earth was without form and void and darkness was on the pa face of the deep. Spirit of God hovered over the darkness and I felt like the Lord said the earth is humanity. They're without form. They're formless. They have no identity right now. Their identity is fluid. They're trying to find the shape of themselves. They're void. There's an emptiness to it. Darkness is on the face of the deep. In other words, there is an obscurity over the image of God within people. They're crying out from the depth. Uh deep calling the deep in a sense. So, what does the spirit of God do? as you said, hovers over the waters and says, speaks a light into it. When he's releasing that light, there's a there's a what the consuming fire of the love of God is released in the declaration of what he says. And in that moment, you know, we have the opportunity to respond to that by saying, "Did not our hearts burn within us?" And I think that's what Jesus was doing in that moment. He's speaking something that's igniting a fire inside of them and of awareness. And maybe people that are listening to this, >> he is he is the fire.

[00:30:02]>> Right. Right. And that's the And that's the thing, you know, you could be a I people probably listening to this podcast, I know because I've talked to some of them who've been, you know, believers for longer than I've been alive, yet are stretching, striving, straining to somehow come to a a place of going, show me how I can attain to the union. And and yet, you know, we consistently s surrender to the sound of his of his voice. that ultimately holds all things together to come to an awareness that he on a subatomic molecular level is literally but the symphony of the voice of God is holding us together as we sit here right now >> the very ground of our being. Let let me let me tell this in a um far be it for me to tell a story but um when I was in college a fairly regionally famous pastor came to do a retreat with us college students and and one of the things he said [snorts] there's 200 of us in the room he said God has a uh in those days back in the early 80s late 70s he said God has a video of your entire life everything you did and didn't do thought and didn't think >> and when you die and go up there face the judgement to God. He's going to play the video on the big screen and everybody is going to see everything about you, even your grandmother and your mama. And of course, everybody got saved that night.

[00:31:21]>> Yeah.

[00:31:22]>> And but I've thought about it through the years and I thought when when you die and you meet Jesus, he's going to hand you not a D, not a video, but maybe a DVD or and it's going to have title your life and kingdom >> flash drive back. Well, whatever from the title of going to be your life and contribution to the kingdom of God.

[00:31:41]Yeah.

[00:31:41]>> And he's going to take you into a private room because he's not into shame and and you're going to turn it on and a blue screen's going to come on big TV and says your life and contribution to the kingdom of God. It stays blue and it stays blue. So you font play again. It stays blue. It just and after a little bit you get frustrated and then he taps you on the shoulder and hands you another one and it says not you but Christ in you the hope of glory which is not hope of glory. Call it the unearly assurance of glory. And you play this one and you see the conversation of the father, son, and spirit before the creation world about you. You see your conception and your birth in Christ. You see the father's burden, the son's love, the grace of the holy spirit at work in you as a little child expressing itself, albeit twisted in darkness. But you see it at work in your whole life in your humanity in your love for your kids in your chosen you know occupation in your and all of a sudden you see yourself as they see you as it's always been but because we bought the lie of delusion all of that's discounted and we're trying now to get in.

[00:32:45]>> Yeah.

[00:32:46]>> And that's to me the revolution of the gospel.

[00:32:48]>> Let me set you up with a soft pitch here Baxter.

[00:32:52]What was our contribution not just to the kingdom of God, what was our contribution to salvation?

[00:32:59]Our I [clears throat] I'll put it personally.

[00:33:04]I am Caiaphas.

[00:33:06]I am Pontius Pilate. I am the Sadducee, Pharisee, the Sanhedrin. And my vote was to damn him.

[00:33:17]Damn him. And not just damn him and curse the word of God. And I'm going to lift him up on the cross, naked, beaten to a pulp, pulverized, and I'm going to say, "Your gift to us was your son, and we're sending him back to you. This is what I think." And as I'm hoisting on the cross and lift him up, I hear the father say, "Baxter, I see what you're doing to my son, and I accept you as a betrayer, as a covenant breaker, as an apostate. I meet you as you lift my son up in your complete rejection of my son. I meet you in your rejection of my son. and I embrace you in everlasting mercy because he is the mercy seek where I meet you in mercy. Now let's talk.

[00:34:09]>> And that's the Emmas road journey that you mentioned.

[00:34:12]>> Yeah.

[00:34:13]>> Is we've been walking this entire time our lives not recognizing the one who's been with us the entire time. And as our hearts begin to burn and as the the the sacramental bread is broken and the the gospel reality begins to open our eyes, we see that he's always been with us.

[00:34:33]Even even in our deepest, darkest, depraved existence. He was always for us. He was never against us. Yeah.

[00:34:42]>> He was never our enemy.

[00:34:43]>> We have this idea that God was our enemy and he had to kill his own son to pay off some legal. It's hogwash. That's a that's a horrible atonement theory.

[00:34:53]That's what the our Eastern brothers consider the the great heresy of the Western church. It really is a heresy.

[00:35:02]The the father was not killing his son in order to love us. His love is unconditional.

[00:35:09]Jesus wasn't twisting the father's arm to be gracious to us. His grace is unconditional.

[00:35:15]The father was demonstrating his love in Christ. He was absorbing our the disease of sin itself. He was he was curing us.

[00:35:23]He was healing us because he really is a good father. This isn't a legal thing.

[00:35:27]This that we have this legal contract perception. But it's it's not contract.

[00:35:33]It's relationship. It's covenant. It's filial. It's familial.

[00:35:38]And [clears throat and cough] we we come to these points where that bread is broken. We see that he's been with us even in our darkness.

[00:35:47]And he he disappears.

[00:35:50]He disappears from the our existing perception of him.

[00:35:56]And and we realize he is far beyond far beyond what we thought he was.

[00:36:03]And in that moment, we realize although we don't comprehend, although this is mysterious, this is a a deep and profound ineffable mystery, we realize that he he's never going to leave us.

[00:36:18]>> Yeah.

[00:36:19]>> He's never going to forsake us.

[00:36:20]>> Yeah.

[00:36:22]>> He He sheds us of our religious perspectives of him, our idolatrous images of him. these idolatrous images of condemnation and law and fear and and and and we realized that that was never his game. It was always adoption. It was always family.

[00:36:38]>> The father, son, and spirit are redeeming geniuses.

[00:36:42]Not on Monday and Tuesday, but all the time and always. And for me, one of the breakthrough moments for me, we were having a I had the theology, but I didn't it wasn't it wasn't popping in my beaver dam. And we were having communion and we were walking up and we tore off a piece of bread and we would dip it in the chalice.

[00:37:00]>> Yes.

[00:37:01]>> And take it and then we'd move the side and the next person would come. And I'm standing there and I'm, you know, flashbacking to my dad back in the Presbyterian church of my youth where he's trying he's doing this over the little cup. I said, "Dad, what are you doing? What are you doing?" You know, I was trying to understand. We're having communion. He said, "I'm getting in earnest, son. I'm getting in earnest."

[00:37:16]And I'm like, "Well, who's earnest?" You know, it was unlike my dad or any other.

[00:37:21]Anyway, so I walk up and I tear off a piece of bread and I and I dip it in in the cup. And as I do, I hear, "He who dips with me in the cup is the one who betrays me." And I freeze, which seemed like a long time to me. I don't know how long it was. And then I heard, "And I turn your betrayal of me into your adoption."

[00:37:43]My goodness. That's when I got it. I thought, "Okay, I got it. Now I got something to believe. Now I'm believing in Jesus." is not in my faith.

[00:37:53]I'm not believing in my faith to get me somewhere I wasn't. I'm believing that Jesus and Jesus is indivisibly one with his father and the holy spirit. God was in Christ reconciling. I I'm seeing now that they met me in my betrayal now. And then the word is if we can do that, if we can transfigure the human race's crucifixion of the word of God into the salvation of the human race, what what do you think we can do with all of your crap? [laughter] And then Paul Paul Young tells this wonderful story about some pastor somewhere who burned out and there was some people in congregation had a nice little shack somewhere in the country or whatever said go out there and just hang out for a while. So he did and there one day went down by the river. It's a beautiful river and a big a fairly fair fairly sized river. Out in the middle of the river is a big old rock and on the rock is a pile of horse manure and out of the horse manure is a tomato vine with a single ripe tomato on it in the middle of the river. And the guy, I don't know anything about the detail of the story, but the guy, he says, I hear the Lord said, "Look, if I can get a horse to take a dump on rock in the middle of the river and I can get a bird to drop tomato, tomato seed in there, and I can have the sunshine coming and grow that tomato with I don't need you." I said, "I don't need you." [laughter] You know, I mean, it's like, I got I got it now. I got it. So now it is Jesus. And that's and that's the contribution to your salvation right there.

[00:39:28]>> That's it.

[00:39:29]>> Yeah. I mean, but but we and there was such a relief of soul when I saw myself nailing Jesus to the cross and I saw my father saying backter, I am affirming you as my son precisely here in your most wicked, stupid, warp, twisted moment. I honor you as my son and I transfigure this moment of rejection into the mercy seat. I transfigure your rejection into my son of my son into the new covenant. I renew our union here.

[00:40:01]This is your contribution. Get over yourself and now marvel at me and my son and the Holy Spirit and walk with us.

[00:40:08]>> But back that revelation lets us off the hook.

[00:40:13]It produces apathy.

[00:40:17]>> That's like Look, dude.

[00:40:19]>> Grace. That's That sounds like greasy grace.

[00:40:22]>> Anybody that says that, what you just said to me about greasy whatever.

[00:40:28]>> Yeah.

[00:40:29]>> Is telling the world that they've never seen Jesus. That's that's the bottom line. Cuz when you meet him inside of your crap, it takes your breath away. It astonishes your heart, blows your mind, and you're in. You may fall off the wagon tomorrow, but you come right back cuz he's determined that you come back and see that where the Holy Spirit is.

[00:40:45]>> We're not talking hyper grace. We're talking hyper hyperactive on Ridland beyond what we and it and it's that revelation that blows the mind. The awe struck wonder. That's the only thing that does transform us. This is the holiness movement. If you don't realize who you are, how are you going to live it? You you told you're you're a sinner.

[00:41:09]What are you going to produce? Sin. Let it be according to your faith. You know, there's something of a realization of who he says we are.

[00:41:17]and and a realization of his unconditional love that absolutely absolutely levels us, melts us. And what's the only proper response is is yes, we've died with Christ. Therefore, let let's be who we are. Let's live it out. Let's let's do we want to do this.

[00:41:37]It's it's it's coming from an entirely different motive. We're not trying to attain a union. We're living out of that union. And this is one of the biggest misconceptions I think that people have about this message.

[00:41:48]>> Yeah. Well, you know, and and a lot of times when people start getting into a conversation about this, it stays in that place of conversation because suddenly the gospel becomes confined to the to the church of our own head. But one of the things I think for me h has kept me in a in a state of of childlike newness in this thing all the time is that I'm constantly finding finding places where it leaks out of the confines of my just thinking about the Lord. So I'm yesterday we saw this in in beautiful brilliant technicolor when uh uh Baxter and our friend Ben uh we all kind of got together at uh Danny Wars's house. Yeah.

[00:42:28]>> to uh to to have a dinner and and Ben had a shoulder that was messed up with a rotator cuff thing and Baxter had a kind of shoulder messed up and and John >> we're trying to throw the football and couldn't do it.

[00:42:40]>> Couldn't do it. Couldn't throw a football. And so quick as can be, John without thinking twice lays hands on him and we're going to go for healing real quick. And before anybody can even like, you know, scrunch their brow into a furoughed holy state >> to try to make it happen with their faith. And there was a there was a simple moment of just letting Jesus do it and then putting it to the test. Next thing we know, I would say the entire thing was done in under 60 seconds, maybe less than 30. Next thing we know, both Baxter and Ben are tossing a football back and forth like we did in high school, >> right?

[00:43:16]>> Like two healed shoulders like Uncle Rico, [laughter] >> throwing it across the mountains.

[00:43:22]>> I'm trying to get him to work on back >> Napoleon Dynamite reference. Sorry.

[00:43:25]going to take state >> way over my head, man. I [laughter] >> It's a genius film. A lot of deep theology in that one.

[00:43:31]>> Telling there's deep theology in all of them, especially Shaw Shank Redemption.

[00:43:35]>> I don't know if anybody's ever compared Napoleon Dynamite to the Shaw Shank Redemption, but here we are.

[00:43:41]>> Is Finding Nemo.

[00:43:43]>> That's the gospel. That's the real father.

[00:43:46]>> I didn't create you to perish, and I'm going to descend in your hell to find you.

[00:43:50]>> Well, you're finding the gospel in a Disney film. Well, if if God can speak through Balam's ass, [laughter] >> then we're okay. That's the redeeming genius.

[00:44:03]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:44:03]>> I take you in your authenticity. People talk about, well, what if you just fall off in the sin? Well, God's going to meet you again and he's going to redeem that. I mean, look, it is. And when you look back at your life and you see how he has discipled you and walked with you and not left you when you botched it, but was precisely there thinking, "Okay, I'm dealing with the motivation that leads to these things and we're going to transform this, transform this, we're going to turn this around." And lo and behold, not only going to turn around, we're going to bring back to the point in his life where he can't figure out for the life of him how he could have ride to this place without falling on his face 50 times.

[00:44:40]>> Yeah. you you it's just it's like we have a definition of what God can bother with and most of us if we're honest think you know we we quit looking at ourselves because there's most of our lives fall under the heading he can't bother with that the truth is he's in the middle of it redeeming that's what fathers do it's what mothers do >> and if we can acknowledge that I'm sure uh Bill you have quite a number of pastors and leaders who listen to your podcast the enormous pressure, the the burnout, the attrition rate for people who are in the pastor, who are in ministry. I if we can recognize that it it's not about our performance that all we are are Balum's ass. All we are is the bony finger of John the Baptist pointing to the lamb of God. It's all him. The thief on the cross didn't understand justification by faith. The thief on the cross, he wasn't baptized. He had no church membership.

[00:45:40]It wasn't me, my faith. No, it's him.

[00:45:42]He's pointing at that guy. It's all that guy. That That's it. It's It's too simple. The gospel is scandalous, not because it's difficult, but because it's so flipping easy.

[00:45:53]>> It's all him or it's not. It It's It's all or nothing. It's all grace or it's not.

[00:46:00]>> You know, in a world, John, where we It seems like we spend so much of our time wrestling against flesh and blood, I would say. You know, Jesus said, "Love your enemies." And a lot of people out there have have made ministries out of making enemies of people and then exalting those enemies, pointing those enemies out. And one of the things that I've I've admired about about you over the years, and this has been a consistency, is that a lot of people in in in our own stream over the years perhaps saw something maybe in you that they didn't they didn't agree with and made you an enemy in their own mind where I've never seen you return that favor and instead consistently point people back to Christ over and over and over again. And uh I just I think there's there's something there's something about that that has I mean I'm thinking in in a world where it feels like so much of the church has gone mad pointing out the uh uh the enemies all around them >> the defect >> the darkness >> the darkness then the the consistency of really both your voices pointing people to to Jesus. Um, I remember a a picture or a video one time because you used to have protesters who would come to your meetings on a regular basis and taking water to the protesters, standing out with them, I think, holding a sign that was like cursing you.

[00:47:22]>> One one of them said, "I I was a false prophet." My buddy said, "False prophet?

[00:47:27]I didn't even know you were a prophet."

[00:47:28][laughter] >> That would be one of your But let let me let me put it uh reframe the discussion.

[00:47:34]I have a uh based on union that I learned from Paul and John and the early fathers.

[00:47:42]I have a little mantra that the the recognition of the sacred presence of the father, son, and holy spirit in every person, enemies included, in every person, moment and place is the beginning of wisdom or is the beginning of seeing the light of life or the beginning of seeing what is the beginning of freedom to be because we assume this group has no Jesus in them at all. So we don't see any Jesus anywhere. So I tell people, this is for me. Jesus, help me to see you today in places that I assume you could not possibly be. And when you recognize Jesus, the life of the father, son, and spirit in a person that you considered out, whether it's out outside your denomination or whatever, they respond to your recognition of them. And you hadn't even said anything.

[00:48:38]It sounds a lot like what Paul said in Colossians 3. You know, Christ is all and in all.

[00:48:43]>> And whether whether everybody reflects that or not, he's at least giving us his perspective of I'm going to look around and see Jesus in everybody even before they see him in themselves.

[00:48:51]>> 2 Corinthians 5, I recognize no one according to the flesh, >> all of our isms, all of our separations.

[00:48:59]He has met Jesus as the the father's eternal son, the anointed one, the Lord and creator and savior of all. And and so he says, "I'm not going to look at you as a gentile anymore." Peter's the same way in Acts 10. He goes up on the roof. He's hungry. He has a vision. God says, "Rise, kill, and eat." That's unclean. I'm not doing that. I'm a Jew.

[00:49:17]Three times he has vision. He don't understand. It's about It's about going to Cornelius, who's a gentile, and you're not even supposed to go in their yard. And all this stuff. Peter comes back down off. He says, "The Lord has shown me, >> yes, >> that I am to call no man unholy, >> unclean."

[00:49:33]>> Now, that's the revolution of the gospel. That's changed. All right. So if he's not unclean, I can look for Jesus in him, >> right?

[00:49:39]>> And I can begin to respond to what I find there.

[00:49:41]>> What would what would happen to the way that we see the world, preach the gospel if we automatically moved from the assumption >> of distance and separation to the the realization that wherever we look, all we can see is holy and clean.

[00:49:57]>> What if we stopped qualifying the fact that his spirit was poured out on all flesh?

[00:50:04]Stop qualifying the word all >> or >> what if he he the spirit is not just on the Pentecostals who've fallen over in a meeting but the satanic rock bands the gays the lesbians are are you advocating people's behavior that's missing the point entirely. What if Holy Spirit like a mother hen is brooding over all of creation, pointing them to the reality of Christ, the truth of who they actually are, whether they know it or not. And our job is not to try to get the Holy Spirit of God into people, but to bring the revelation of the truth of the one who already is within them, who accepts them, who loves them. And out of that is the manif is the metaninoia, the change of mind, the repentance. Out of that comes the fruit that all our religious buddies are looking for to prove that they're in the club. But what if we we flip this whole thing? We start from a place of inclusion. We start from a place of union. And and and that's the only place we're going to see transformation. If we're trying to make it happen, that's where the burnout comes. What we need to do is recognize where Holy Spirit's already at work. If we can see Christ in someone who doesn't realize he's already in there, he's in humanity, the last Adam has vicariously included the human race in his own humanity. If if we can see that, we don't see the the cab driver or the bartender or the some wood butcher as just a, you know, a degenerate sinner bound for hell. But if we see them as family members who don't realize their inclusion yet, that's the gospel. And we draw that out.

[00:51:43]>> Yeah. We we we we pull that out of them.

[00:51:45]We recognize the truth of who they are.

[00:51:47]Hey, that whatever you think you are, that's not true. This is the reality.

[00:51:51]You're made in the divine image. You've been restored to that in Jesus. Apart from your vote, and that's where we're going to see what we're looking for. If we're talking about revival, you don't make revival happen.

[00:52:05]>> Social revolution.

[00:52:06]>> Yeah. When Jesus said, "Love your enemies earlier this week, I was asking the Lord, make this real to me." And of course, he goes on defines it. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who despitefully as you do good to those who mistreat you. But I for me, make it real to me. Give me give me some fresh language for this. And I this is the thing that came but to my heart and I wrote it down and just simply said, "Introduce me to your enemies." And I thought, "That's it. If I love somebody, I'm going to want them to know Jesus.

[00:52:37]How do I introduce Jesus to my enemies?

[00:52:40]I was thinking about the verse in First John where it says, "No man's seen God at any time, but if we love one another, God abides in us." And I thought, "Okay, okay, that's it. That's it." The way I introduce Jesus to my enemies is he's revealed. He's hiding himself in me who's his temple. and he's revealed in my love and he's concealed in my hatred. So when I preach from a place or I speak or teach or or elevate a ministry from a place of of [snorts] hatred disguised as righteous indignation creating enemies and creating us and them mentalities with everybody, then pretty soon I I'm looking at a world that's increasingly confused about the nature of God and I'm wondering what the problem is. when in fact I've abdicated [snorts] my responsibility to actually introduce Jesus to my enemies through radical sacrificial love, which feels an awful lot like the cross.

[00:53:34]>> It could even start with kindness.

[00:53:37]Let let all the Baptist denominations be kind to one another. Let all the Presbyterian Let's just start with the household of the 44,000 denominations.

[00:53:47]>> And that would be revival. Well, revival would be when you realize that Jesus is in them, too. Right?

[00:53:54]>> I'm just talking about the household of faith.

[00:53:56]>> One of the things I get hit a lot on is preaching unity. Not just union, but unity. Union is one thing we can keep that in the realm of mystery for a lot of people who just kind of, okay, I can't wrap my mind around that. When I start talking about unity, it it's amazing how people get angry. So, I was asking the Lord one day, >> read John 17.

[00:54:13]>> Right. Right. That they would be one, right? which of course means >> and the world would know >> that everybody would agree with with me right >> and so u I was asking the Lord again give me language for this because that's probably the prayer I pray more than any other prayer is like okay God I see a revelation of this but give me language on how to communicate it to this group that group the widest audience possible and what came is that unity unity is not agreement unity is when I lay my life down for somebody who doesn't agree with me because that feels like the cross that Jesus lays its life down for an entire planet that doesn't agree with him and in doing so brings us to reconciliation with the father.

[00:54:49]>> In doing so enters into the abyss of our delusion. That's it.

[00:54:53]>> The Holy Spirit turns the lights on.

[00:54:54]Everybody goes, "Uhoh, wait a minute.

[00:54:56]Yeah, >> that sounds like universalism to me. We can't be universal." I'm like, "It's not universalism. It's the universal presence of Jesus Christ in his creation." Now, where are we in understanding that?

[00:55:08]>> Yeah.

[00:55:08]>> Where are we as Christians in understanding that? We're all over the map in our understanding, but our understanding doesn't constitute the reality.

[00:55:16]>> Yeah. He says, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." He didn't say, "And you will be faithful enough to create the truth."

[00:55:24]There is a reality that is real before you know it.

[00:55:28]>> Yeah.

[00:55:29]>> Faith is discovering the reality. Well, what is the reality? And that is that we are created in Christ and he has redeemed us.

[00:55:36]>> Yeah.

[00:55:36]>> All right. So, what does that mean, Jesus? It means change the way you see people. What does that mean, Jesus? I need to see you in people that I don't think you are you are in.

[00:55:45]>> Yeah.

[00:55:46]>> And I need somebody to define holiness other than preachers. I mean, seriously, I mean, I I bought into five different denominations definitions that stuff.

[00:55:54]And all it is is an opinion of a human being. He's a little bit less blind than I am.

[00:55:59]>> I want to know what Jesus knows and sees what he sees and how he sees it.

[00:56:04]>> He doesn't see what I define as enemies as enemies.

[00:56:09]>> Yeah. You know, man, this this is revolutionary stuff. This is where the rubber meets the road. Now, the question is [clears throat] I think needs to be addressed within all of this is if this is true of everyone on earth, does that mean all people will be saved?

[00:56:27]Therefore, therefore, everybody has a ticket to go to heaven. Yep. Everybody's got a ticket to go to heaven. That's not the issue. The issue is why won't people use the ticket?

[00:56:35]>> Yeah. And what are we going to do when we see that there are people who don't want to use the ticket?

[00:56:42]>> Yeah.

[00:56:42]>> And George McDonald is really Christlike in his analysis of that. And I won't do justice. I won't try to quote him, but I'll paraphrase him. He's thinking about Paul saying, "I would willingly, you know, go down into hell, sacrifice myself so that my brothers, the Jews, could see."

[00:57:02]>> Sure. So McDonald's like, "What what do you think you're going to do when you become Christlike?

[00:57:08]Are are you not going to say, "Jesus, can I go do what you do, which is incarnate myself into the darkness and the abyss and go sit with my brother who's blind and hates God just for a little bit? I sacrifice my being to help him take a step."

[00:57:21]>> I mean, [snorts] put that in your escatological pipe and start smoking on it.

[00:57:25]>> Yeah.

[00:57:25]>> But what are you going to be like when you become like the father, son, and spirit? We see what they are. They forsake all, so to speak, and plunge themselves into the depths of our delusion in order to bring their their bride to clarity and clarification so that they can dance.

[00:57:42]>> Yeah.

[00:57:42]>> So, what are we going to do? We're going to sit there like the countless days, you know? We're going to sit there at God's throne and watch people burn in hell forever and rejoice in the glorification, divine justice. Not if we're like Jesus, >> right?

[00:57:54]>> We're going to say, Jesus, I'm can I go now?

[00:57:56]>> Yeah.

[00:57:56]>> Can I go extinguish myself? Give my life. give up everything that I have in love in order to help one of my brothers or sisters see. Yeah. And that's a whole new world.

[00:58:08]>> I never stopped and thought about that.

[00:58:09]You know, 1 John 4:17, as he is, so are we in this world. Jesus descends descends into hell to literally preach the gospel and to the souls of men in prison. You're sitting there going, you know, wow. If as he is, so are we in this world, what am I willing to do to bring people to an awareness of the truth, what God has always believed about them?

[00:58:28]>> Yeah. I even even back it out of hell.

[00:58:31]What am I going to do today >> today? Right >> on earth to Jesus, how can I participate in your incarnate self-sacrificing love for that guy sitting over there, right?

[00:58:44]What do you want me to do?

[00:58:46]>> You know, and I see God as having such a value for freedom and choice.

[00:58:52]>> And >> it's almost like he's not going to to violate that. So, he honors a person's will if they decide they want to self-destruct. And it's like >> he's got all the time in the world.

[00:59:00]>> That but that's the thing. Yeah. I I I felt man I felt the Lord say one day to my heart I'm thinking God I feel like I'm wasting so much time and I felt like he said you know don't worry I can make more.

[00:59:11]>> Well you are wasting time but he's the redeemer. [laughter] He's the redeemer of your wasted time. You know Malcolm Mugidge's autobiography uh chronicles a wasted time. Well it's not wasted. Everything that we think and do, >> yeah, >> especially our wrong thinking and doing is bound up in the redeemer's uh joyous mystery of redemption. So, it's wasted to us because we weren't productive in American framework or in this denominational framework. We didn't produce anything. But that gets transfigured into something beautiful that flows out of you towards somebody that you, you know, three weeks ago thought shouldn't is not even worthy of hearing the truth.

[00:59:52]>> Yeah. Nothing's lost. you know, he he he multiplies the bread and he he gathers up the broken fragments. Not all of it all of it is is brought in. And I think going to your question of of unity. I mean, we are so polarized in our western society today. Uh are you progressive?

[01:00:09]Are you fundamentalist? Are you Calvinist? Are you Pentecostal? What what all these little isms and and polarizations. And you know, we are it's completely futile to try to make unity happen. That again that would be human fabrication. He says we're already united in him. We're already one in him.

[01:00:27]So if we start with that objective reality and we view one another as already in the family whether they know it or not. Again, faith doesn't make this happen. Faith rec it's the recognition of what he says is true, what he sees. And from that perspective, we we we can live out of it in a way that as if it's already true. That that's that's that's the life of faith.

[01:00:55]And it's a lot less stress, >> a lot less work, >> and a lot less sitting there seething with bitterness, watching whatever flavor of news channel we want, brooding over, you know, against the those others over there. We we so often agree with that that accusing voice. you know, we have to we have to start with being a little kinder to ourselves. And I think uh you know that and that may sound wishy-washy, but it it is it is the truth. If we can't agree with his perspective of us, that that may sound like arrogance. It may sound like pride, >> but we didn't do it.

[01:01:28]>> It's not our fault.

[01:01:29]>> No pride in that. I I can't take any credit for what I didn't do.

[01:01:32]>> Absolutely.

[01:01:33]>> The definition of sin for me is Jesus. You're wrong about the father.

[01:01:39]You're wrong about yourself and the Holy Spirit about the human race and my enemies. And you need to change what you believe and agree with me.

[01:01:45]>> Yeah, >> that's the definition of sin. I'm right, Jesus. You're wrong. You change what you believe. The the Christian life is Jesus, I don't want to see things the way I see them anymore. I don't want to see myself. That's your That's agreements. I I don't want to see anybody around me. I don't I don't want to impose my perception on on your world. I want to see the way you see.

[01:02:07]And I want to live in the freedom of your heart with the father. I I don't want to see what I see. I don't want to see people the way I see them. I don't want to see my family. I'm I'm like Jesus. I don't just blow my mind. Just blow my mind and ree and dry clean it.

[01:02:24]That's renewal. That's So now I can begin to see what is. And as I see what is, I'm free to respond. Bas, you said a phrase yesterday, you know, what is Jesus Christ to do when the bride when his bride has lost her mind? And uh I was thinking about that on the way home uh from my time yesterday, but it's kind of in response to that that phrase, John, that question. Where where do you see the bride at and going in light of the promise of of the scripture that says that he's going to be faithful to complete a work that he started in us?

[01:03:02]>> I think the good news is wherever we see the church today. If we see the church as fallen away apostate, confused, radically confused, either obsessed with secularism or fundamentalism or whatever is at the end of the day, there's only one message.

[01:03:22]And if some of us start to wake up to points of it a little bit ahead of everybody else, well, hey, that's fine if we're in the real estate business before they are. But but at the end of the day, where else are we going to go?

[01:03:35]We have to trust that that he's involved in this. We're not alone. Holy Spirit's in this. Holy Spirit is awakening us to this gospel. And if it's dependent upon my own ability to articulate or put my theology in order or crank out some miracles, well, I mean, my goodness, what a what a hopeless case that is because I I I know my own limited abilities if I can be honest with it.

[01:04:00]you know, unless I'm just a an absolute narcissist attaching titles and uh online doctorates to myself and trying to make something, you know, of self-importance. I would much rather uh ride in on inheritance and and you don't you don't earn an inheritance. Your dad did. So, that that's that's the >> eating your cake and having it too. I mean, the the gospel is good news or it's not. It's it's all him or it's not.

[01:04:24]It it's it's it's 100% completely beyond I mean we have a blank check to try to you know over overexlain o the goodness of God. You you you I don't think any of us are going to meet Jesus in the beatotific vision as we we roll into heaven and say wow Jesus I I really overestimated how good you are. He is goodness itself.

[01:04:50]He's beauty itself.

[01:04:52]>> Yeah. Yeah, we're not going to go we're not going to go into heaven, you know, putting on a three star Yelp review going, you know, this I really honestly thought you going to be better. I mean, I'm glad to be here, but seriously, >> well, we might and we'd be the guy or the gal that the Lord says, "How did you get in here in your own strength?"

[01:05:07]>> He's the desire of all nations. He's he's what we're all longing for.

[01:05:10]>> We don't have to make that desire real.

[01:05:13]>> No, >> that is real. That's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[01:05:16]>> Taste and you see >> work in us. We the Christian community bear witness to what is >> and that witness echoes inside of the human soul which is the word of God echoing.

[01:05:28]>> We don't get them out of and into the Christian community is the the first installment of a little bit of waking up to what's real for everybody.

[01:05:40]>> Listen, you you got a lot I'm sure you even have listeners here who we have this remnant mentality. got a couple, >> you know, that that uh we're the the few select chosen who are building our bunkers and uh storing up uh food buckets in our basement for Armageddon and uh while while the world goes to hell in a hand basket and and this whole idea of remnant, you know, when Paul talks about the remnant in Romans 9 through11, you know, he he he talks about the the bread, if the if the first lump is holy, then the entire lump has been made holy.

[01:06:13]>> Yeah. You know, we think of Israel uh as, you know, the chosen people, but what does he say in Genesis 12? They're not chosen pulled apart from the nations while he fries everybody with nuclear war with Russia or whatever. No, they're chosen for the nations. They're a light to the nations. There's this >> there's this kingdom yeast that has affected the entire human lump. And so if we we realize that I it takes away the us and them and and and that's that is imperative. If if if we're going to love people, we we have to see we have to see it from that perspective. What is faith is trust or trusting that this really is better than we could possibly imagine.

[01:07:06]Well, thanks for listening to the Reckless Grace podcast today. As reckless and gracefilled as it is, hope you learned something, picked up a couple of nuggets along the way, walk away a little bit more educated, a little bit more understanding, uh maybe a little bit more uh aware of our [music] need, all of us, a need to up our game in a revelation of the goodness of God. I pray you turn your face toward the Lord in in a in a way that causes you to behold him. Realize just the beautiful reality that there's no distance and separation between you and your heavenly father. And really that's all because [music] of what Jesus Christ did. Baxter likes to do a thing and and he didn't do it on this podcast because [music] we were just having a conversation around a table, but he likes to do a thing when he speaks and I really enjoy it. I I feel like it's really really beautiful. and he'll just talk about the goodness of God for a while and then he says this phrase and I'm going to leave you with [music] this. He asks the audience, if you don't believe what I've said today, you can't wrap your mind around what I've said today. [music] Ask this question. Say, Jesus, are you in me? Jesus, do you live inside of me?

[01:08:18]And take some time to listen. See what he says. I've watched is people have profound encounters with God when they begin to actually ask Jesus to reveal himself, not just to you, but in you.

[01:08:35]And then you begin to maybe taste and see the goodness of the mystery Christ in you, the hope of glory. You may not understand it, may not ever be able to put it into words, but you can certainly be introduced to it. And I pray today maybe you've been introduced to Jesus again for the first time. Some of you for the thousand thou thousandth time [music] many of you try to say thousandth sometime. It's kind of a hard word to say but may this introduction be lifealtering, life-changing. And if you'd like to get in touch with Baxter and [music] and John and hear any more of their stuff or get a hold of some of their material, learn a little bit more about them, you can find John Crowder at the new mystics.com.

[01:09:17]thenew mystics.com.

[01:09:21]You can find Baxter [music] at Hang on, this one's a tough one. paracaresis.org.

[01:09:26]It's spelled pi h o r e s i s.org.

[01:09:33]paracaresus.org or just type in and Google John Crowder Bter [music] Krueger and their websites will pop right up to the top. Hey, thanks so much for joining us today at the Regless Grace Podcast. If you want to write to us in good oldfashioned snail mail, you can do so by writing to Faith Mountain Ministries, [music] Box 595, Marshall, Minnesota 56258.

[01:09:55]Faith Mountain Ministries, Box 595, Marshall, Minnesota 56258. [music] You can also jump online at billanderbush.com. Listen to this again on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcast. Share it with somebody.

[01:10:09][music] If it was dangerous enough to wreck and rock your world, maybe it'll be dangerous enough to shake somebody else's up. Hey, at least it'll give you something to talk about. That's kind of fun. Anyway, uh I also really encourage you to uh check out the website billanderbush.com. Go to some of the resources. We're always releasing new ones. There's some downloadable resources on there as series. Highly recommend the one on Daniel. Something's God's been really, really stirring in my heart for the past few months. And uh seems to be having an impact on people.

[01:10:38]And I appreciate all the uh the feedback on that one. Hey, take care everybody.

[01:10:42]Thanks for listening to the Reckless Grace podcast. This is Bill Vanderbush.

[01:10:45]Catch you next time. [music]