Sheeks Aboot Shetland - Rampaging Renewables with Andrew Archer and Jennifer Christie

[00:00:00]there just seems to be uh an endless [clears throat] number of projects uh which are going to have an enormous impact on Shetland. Um, and I think the consultations that SSSE ended uh a couple of weeks ago have made a lot of people realize the scope of what is being planned and how um, you know, there are huge areas that are just going to have to look at all this stuff for decades to come. I think the feeling when I speak to [ __ ] and yell is that we're getting hoodbanked here and and that annoys me because I think we need to I mean even me I started looking at this and I've read a lot and listened a lot this past few weeks and it's it is hugely complicated but what still stands out to me at the end of this is when you read into SS um kind of manifesto where they're going to do it and the reasons for picking why they're putting stuff where and It comes back to accessibility coster.

[00:01:05]There are things I think that could be happening for the benefit of our community that's not because of cost >> and that to me is desperately unfair.

[00:01:15]And that's where we as a community need to be standing up and saying if this has to happen and I like Andrew very much fear that it does. If this has to happen and we are going to be stuck with us, let's mark the best of a bad job here.

[00:01:28]>> Shakes shitland. Shakes a boot [ __ ] So [music] much going on here every single day. Shakes a boot [ __ ] Shakes a boot [ __ ] Everybody's got that much they want to say. Shakes a [ __ ] Shakes a [ __ ] Going to do her best to put the world right. Shakes.

[00:01:54]come along and listen to speaking.

[00:01:58]>> Welcome to the latest episode of Shikaboot Boot Shetland on the Shetland podcast. Um where we'll be talking about probably the biggest issue that's happening in Shhatland right now, which is the industrial development.

[00:02:09]Um the scale of industrial development currently being prepared in Shhatland is enormous and it rivals what happened in the 1970s when the oil industry came here. These developments in renewable energy are happening on the back of the Viking wind farm, which only came into being after a huge lengthy battle with the local community that resulted in a loss of the financial benefits and the influence Shhatland could have enjoyed if things have been done differently.

[00:02:34]The difference with the oil developments is that they were fairly well contained within a distinct part of Shhatland.

[00:02:39]While these renewable developments directly affect a very large number of local people across the north and center of the islands as turbines, cables, pylons, and substations spread across the land and beyond into the fishing grounds surrounding these aisles. We have the Mossy Hill wind farm outside Lurwick with its massive substation nearby. A huge ammonia plant at Tagdale.

[00:03:01]Two new wind farms being planned for Yell. Two enormous wind farms to be built in the sea where fishermen work.

[00:03:06]Huge substations being planned for outside VO and on Yell a hydrogen plant with turbines at Scatter and Bray. And then there were the cables to connect them all. A second HVDC cable to be brought ashore up north and pylons galore. Not to mention the digging up of our roads that's been going on for years now. The developments have been described as a juggernaut, a gold rush, and a land grab. We're told this needs to happen as fast as possible to meet the government's commitments to net zero, which have also been called unachievable.

[00:03:37]And we are told there is nothing we can do about it. In return, we are offered community benefit funds offering a fraction of the profits these developments will make for corporate shareholders and the companies involved and of course jobs for the boys. The Scottish government has said it is not sustainable to pause these developments, but communities throughout rural Scotland are beginning to join forces to demand a say in what is transforming the land where they live their lives. The local council says they are powerless to slow down or halt these developments.

[00:04:07]But now we have calls from the association of community councils in Shhatland for a moratorum.

[00:04:12]With us today, we have Andrew Archer, the chairman of Tingwall Whiteness and Weisdale Community Council, who has been a leading voice calling for a pause. And we have Jennifer Christie, who lives on Yale, close to where a massive substation is being planned, who recently posted a powerful plea for protection from this project, which will have a huge impact on the life and the well-being of her community. So, welcome both. And as this is such a big subject, can we start off with getting a clear picture of what the actual scale of developments being planned for Shhatland is? So the big picture either of you probably Andrew >> um I [clears throat] must say I'm I'm really focused more on on our area but because if you look just at Tingle whiteness and weedale obviously we already have uh the Viking wind farm we have the converter station up at Kir and one of the biggest issues um has been all the stuff that comes with these developments. So we have all the the hideous poles down through uh Tingwell and then now we have um all the northern developments um of which from from our point of view one of the worst aspects is the plan to connect the converter station at Kir to uh the the northern developments at at T to which means this great big new substation at VO pylons from Kir Gord uh up to the substation and then pylons north from VO. Um as you mentioned uh Stackcraft are have decided that they're going to go ahead with the the Mossy Hillwind farm. Uh and also Stackcraft have um put in plans to or announced plans to build the ammonia plant at Tagdale. And um there just seems to be uh an endless [clears throat] number of projects uh which are going to have an enormous impact on Shetland. Um, and I think the consultations that SSEN did uh a couple of weeks ago have made a lot of people realize the scope of what is being planned and how um, you know, there are huge areas that are just going to have to look at all this stuff for decades to come.

[00:06:39]>> Thanks Andrew. I [clears throat] think until reading me into it or the last day or so, I had very little idea of the overall picture of everything. And I think like Jennifer mentioned earlier in her post, I feel that in some ways we've all been sleepwalking into this um just as like a general [clears throat] member of the public. But we have had the Viken wind farm now for a few years although the work is not finished yet by all accounts. And the visual impact is there for everybody to see. I mean sometimes I think it looks quite beautiful. I was driving doing papala day in the m and you just had this slowly turning heads above it and it did not look horrible but for other fox opinions it might be hideous what it's done to the land. But what difference has it made to fox life so far and what are you experiencing yourself Andrew and what have you heard for others?

[00:07:39]Um I think the you've got the practical thing as Pete said of you know endless digging up the roads. You've got the community in Tingwell particularly at Vinsgar and Got where they look at this forest of poles and um what's most annoying is that some of this stuff didn't have to happen. So our community council, we've had some big arguments with SSER and SSEM over the years. And so for example, the bit in Tingle um we had a great big argument with them there where what we were saying to them was that um for the price of about 10 days output from Viking, they could have buried a couple of miles more of that cable.

[00:08:30]>> Yeah. uh and we and we would then or the you know the the community would not then have had to look at this stuff for 40 50 years. Um but they wouldn't do it.

[00:08:43]Um so you know it's all money money and uh what the community wants doesn't seem to come into it. um you know the birds get considered other you know um >> areas of outstanding natural beauty or scientific interest and stuff they're all good reasons why stuff could be buried but you know what the community wants >> um appears to be bottom of the list >> so on top it's a feeling of powerlessness and frustration within your community >> yeah very much so um I mean the the consultations at at VO Uh, I mean, I think what I said about them was that one of my community council colleagues and I, we went up to vote and you just get this sense of this juggernaut of here it is again. This is what we're going to do. Um, and consultation, I mean, there they saying, "All right, yes, we've listened.

[00:09:43]We're going to bury this bit." Um, but the message still seems to be um, regardless of what you want, we're still going to massively crap on you, just not quite as much.

[00:09:57]>> Coming to to you, Jennifer, as Pete said, you very eloquently expressed your fears about a substation being built within earshot or him.

[00:10:07]>> Tell us what your concerns are best on and why you're so worried about it.

[00:10:13]Well, I think just to pick up on what you were saying before, I also g to the consultation with SSE last week and I think that before I part up your post, that was really what um made the alarm bells go off for me. I mean, one of the things I felt with the consultation before I come on to like why I'm so angry about the substation, but one of the things that I felt with the consultation that was really just paying lip service to it, you get into the hall and there was all the glossy boards and you you wander the room and you heard about this piece and you heard about the next piece, but it was a it was a very carefully orchestrated consultation to divide and conquer. You didn't get the chance to sit as a community and hear what the def were saying and put your views forward as a community. They pick at you off wine and you get around and you had a pity about book this and a pretty bad book the next but you never had the chance to actually put forward your real concerns as a as a coherent one voice with the community. Um and that was not done by accident I don't think. And the other thing that really angered me at the consultation was exactly what you were saying before can I I said to one of them about and it was about the pylons. It was about burying the cable as opposed to the pylons which is going to run right through the hery.

[00:11:33]Um and I said ke you can bury it.

[00:11:36]There's a there's a a piece in Yel which is going to be buried for Borovo and Around is going to be buried. But the main um the main kind of line that comes up for the energy is went far right down to where the substation is is going to be on pylons.

[00:11:50]And my answer to that was well we could bury it but it would cost more and that would have to be passed on to the consumer. Now that really angered me.

[00:11:59]That to me is it's blackmail. King you you choose to be quiet or your energy prices are going to go up if you want Mr. that and it's back to what Andrew said that's a choice that does not that is not it's not a fee to complete it that has to be passed on something of the size of sen can absorb that costs so uh I come away for the consultation feeling very agreved about it >> the glossy bro sorry can I just say there another part of that is the glossy brochures that they were dishing out on the day when you open it up the first page you know the message is We all have to play our part, you know, i.e. tough.

[00:12:40]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:12:43]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, as for the substation piece, I mean, I think that it's going to be 6 of a mile back door. And I mean, I'm concerned with a couple of things about that. Firstly, noise. Okay. And when you start looking into noise and I do not profess to be any expert on that skin, I am a lay person just looking at it for outside. Um, but when you started to even Google or start to think about noise, it did say that it's between and within a half a mile depending on the topography of the land and everything, it's between 30 to 40 dibels. I did a very quick putting on my oven and wandering there wouldn't be a deceler in my host till I got it to register 40 just to hear what it was going to be like and it's really rude. can you I I am under no illusions that we will hear this for our back door and living with that kind of noise 24/7 is not what I want it's not what any of our community wants and also the kind of worry I have for the substation is I mean it will be emitting electromagnetic energy that's that magnetic field is going to be around it when you start looking into that the jury is very much it's very much up for debate what impact that has on the environment and on on waste. Um the other thing that worries me about the substation is that it's going to be um a gas insulated substation. When you start looking at that sulfur hexaflloride that they use for this gas insulated and I I understand we again my very limited research and please don't think that I'm any kind of expert on this because I absolutely am not. The reasons for using the gas seems to be the footprint of the substation. If you use um air insulate, it it seems to reduce the footprint. But sulfur hexafflloride is pretty horrible stuff.

[00:14:29]When you actually start reading into it and looking what can happen if there are accidents in lakes, it's not really something you want flaunting about in your community. So there are just too many unanswered questions for me and I I I feel that we as a community need to stop sleepwalking into this and actually start really looking into it and and saying what we feel about it. So yeah, that's that's where I am.

[00:14:55]>> And I think also until you look in detail at the drawings, you don't get a a real appreciation of the size of these things. For example, this the, you know, the the substation that's going to be uh just south of um Mossy Hill, top of Ladies Drive, you see the images and you think, oh, just looks like, you know, agricultural shed.

[00:15:15]>> And then you look at the size of it and it's like, hang on, it's 100 m long, you know, it's 15 m tall. These things are enormous.

[00:15:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. Two football pictures. It's 200 meters. The ones that's pl that's planned for yell. So that's a plonin.

[00:15:30]two football pitches.

[00:15:33]>> So, so what what what you're saying is that this consultation process isn't really being handled honestly, that you're not really being given a a clear picture of what is going to happen.

[00:15:46]They're trying to sort of persuade you, bully you that you have that we have um because we're all affected by this, but some more than others that we we have to do this because because, you know, because of net zero, because of climate change and all those sort of things.

[00:16:04]>> Um they're not being clear about the actual detail of what's involved. And you're having to do I mean as a lay person you're having to do your own research to find out what on earth is going on. So it's not a fair playing field by any means. You're you're we're being kind of faced with consequences that we don't fully understand. Is that's what you're saying, right?

[00:16:27]>> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:16:30]>> I think what she's also saying is that the community has no had the opportunity together to put their view forward.

[00:16:37]>> Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. I mean the consultation was very as I say we we didn't feel or I certainly came away for it not feeling as if the community voice was being heard.

[00:16:48]>> It was you wander the ru individually.

[00:16:52]>> If you go to a meeting where it's an open meeting where fk can say well I can about this or I'm worried about y that gives you the opportunity to discuss that and to actually either find solutions or to even be aware of what we're facing. Um I really felt that that that that didn't happen at this and again I mean I I I agree with you and I'm not I am not against renewable energy. Uh the windmills themselves they do have a certain elegance to them.

[00:17:20]They do have a certain beauty. I I don't mind that. I think what I'm really annoyed about is the infrastructure that has to go along with that and the impact of the infrastructure actually annoys me more than the wind balls themselves.

[00:17:34]That's the piece that I feel Shetlanders didn't maybe fully understand or certainly w and yell didn't fully understand. I mean we we saw the energy went firm. We saw the startcraft plans and I think before all this you just thought oh well it's went miles we maybe weren't particularly happy with them but you could put up with it and then suddenly in comes the realization of what this actually means and what the infrastructure that surrounds that when firms are going is going to do to our community. And I think for me the people more upset for themselves.

[00:18:12]Can I just go back go back a step in that but effectively what we're looking at with the the consultations and things is the symptom of something much more fundamental that's wrong which is that the the policy in Scotland for the last I don't know how many years it seems to that we want developers to come in and put in as much renewable energy as possible and battery storage etc etc And the message to developers seems to be apply for whatever you want wherever you want. Um and the consequence of that is then that sen are then obliged to accommodate to fit it into the network.

[00:19:00]What we've not got is some having some more structured view to try and remove some of the chaos. Um, and locally, you know, I would say that there's there's two things that sort of epitomize that for me. One is you the Tagdale ammonia plant. So to for anybody who doesn't know Tale is in the Dale golf course and the Dales Voke Key is on the hillside there and Stackcraft have said they want to tear apart the hillside there to build a big chemical plant and um to make ammonia.

[00:19:45]Uh, and they also want to build a new key, a new jetty to take one ship every 3 or 4 months to export the ammonia from the plant. And our message to Stackcraft was, we're not against the idea of the ammonia plant and the jobs it will bring, but you've got brownfield sites with keys less than a mile away. Why is it that what you think is absolutely the best thing for you has to happen rather than there being some compromise with how can that be fitted into what works for the community as well. Um so I think for me Tagdale is an example of of how developers just have this focus of you know what's best for the developer what the community wants bottom of the list.

[00:20:38]The other part about it being not well organized is one of the things that our community council has questioned is why is this link between Kir and the northern stuff needed? Um so we asked this at the consultation event and ended up speaking to a technical guy from SSEN uh who said well actually the primary reason we've got to put the linkages in is that we're contractually obliged to do it because when the original wind farms on or when the the two what they both originally peel energy or PLG energy iss when they were first consented the plan was that the energy would go down the interconnector from Kir and so they would have to link those wind farms to Kir. Since then we now have the plan for the the second interconnector and you know would it not make more sense to say well hang on the stuff up there goes down the second interconnector you know and then we don't need to put the link between Kir and the north where's this view at the top saying hang on we need to look at what we're doing can it be done differently in a less damaging way um >> which would save them money as well >> well Yeah. So we we [laughter] you know we put that to sen and they said well actually we need to do it for for resilience and we were saying well hang on you know Shetland's problems with resilience aren't this 132 kovolt 220 kov volt backbone that you want to put in all the issues about Shetland's resilience is the 11 kovolt 33 kovolt stuff um like we had you know two winters ago. So yes, you might want to do it for resilience, you know, but it's not for our resilience, is it? It's it's so that you can export as much power as possible offshand. Um, and there just seems to be this stampede to get as much built as possible. And so one of the things that that we're trying to get our MSPs to do through this convention is to say, hang on, pause a minute. Let's have a look at what the impacts are on communities. Can we do this stuff in a better way? Um, I saw a thing the other day where there have already been several of these conventions elsewhere in Scotland and that's what led to an event in Hollywood in February and one of the things that was raised there was trying to get the the community councils through the conventions um involved as a stakeholder with a thing called the strategic spatial energy plan. And sorry that we've now get to lots of horrible acronyms, but sitting above SSEN and sitting above GEM is this body called NISO, the National Energy System Operator. And their job is to come up with the strategy of what needs to be what type of power needs to be generated where. Now, NISO arduce their strategy until next year.

[00:24:03]So, so we've not got the strategy, but still we're just plowing on with let's build everything we can in the meantime.

[00:24:12]Um, and it just seems bonkers to me that, you know, surely we ought to have the plan first.

[00:24:21]>> That makes sense.

[00:24:23][laughter] But sort of cutting to the nub at everything that you're saying, do the will the MP and S SNP have any power to pause things?

[00:24:35]>> Our MSPs certainly do. I mean, developments in Scotland happen through the energy consense unit that's controlled by the Scottish government.

[00:24:43]And I know that the event that happened at February, the Jillian Martin, the cabinet secretary for climate and energy, can't remember exactly what her title is, was saying, "Oh, well, yes, but a lot of this is is, you know, reserved for Westminster, but somebody pointed out to her that that in fact Scotland has a lot of control and it it decides to use it in some areas and not in others. So, for example, the Scottish government has decided that it doesn't want nuclear and it has used the planning process to effectively halt that. Um, it could do the same for a lot of the wind stuff if it wanted to, but it chooses not to. So, I think the argument that that Scotland doesn't have control over these things isn't true. One of the things that we're calling for is a planning inquiry commission that would look at the impacts on communities of all these developments across Scotland.

[00:25:40]The planning inquiry commission could be started um immediately uh by the relevant Scottish government minister.

[00:25:48]They have the power to do that. So the reason we're pushing for this is that we know our council can't do it, but our MSPs can. Um, but you know, they would have to be on board to do it and that's what we're trying to call for.

[00:26:06]>> And you've invited them to this meeting.

[00:26:07]It's taken part in August.

[00:26:09]>> It is. It's Saturday the 22nd of August in the morning at the Islesborough. Um, Alistister Carmichael has said he's going to be there. Um, I am still waiting to hear from most of our MSPs.

[00:26:22]Um, so I really hope that as many of them as possible will be there.

[00:26:28]to [clears throat] hear people's concerns directly. Um if they're not, I think that sends its own message. Um but um I wait to see what they say.

[00:26:40]>> So So you've it seems that the kind of the powers that be the council and that say they don't have any power to stand up to this. But um you so things have come down to the community council level and you had this meeting recently of the association of community councils where you agreed to have a to call for a moratorum which you've invited Alistister Carmichael and Hannah Mary Goodlad to what can you can you explain kind of what the background to that is and what you're hoping it will achieve >> the convention so what what the ASC has has agreed to is to organize a convention of community counselors uh which will then call upon our MSPs to um call for a moratorum, call for the planning inquiry commission.

[00:27:30]This is something that started last summer uh in the uh Highland region I think and um where they were the community councils there felt particularly powerless. they're justifications of developments. Um they couldn't stop them even where their local authority was objecting. Uh the local authority couldn't stop them. Uh and so there they said what are we going to do? And they got the community councilors together from across the region and got their MSPs to sign up to a thing called the unified statement which calls for this planning inquiry commission moratorum.

[00:28:13]Um that then was followed by one I think in the northeast region last autumn.

[00:28:19]There was one in the borders January this year. Uh Perth and Kin Ross are doing something late summer and we are holding ours in August. And the idea is that we're all calling for the same things. It's the same unified statement to get as many as possible of our MSPs to say hang on, you know, when did Scotland consent to this? You know, let us pause and work out is there a better way of doing it. And the end result might be that some of this stuff has to happen, but at least let's do it in a way where it's not just this chaotic trampling of people.

[00:29:05]Is it a case of of of locking the door after the horse has bolted do you think?

[00:29:09]Or I mean is it too is there time for change? Can it be halted? Can it how do you feel?

[00:29:15]>> I think the big fear is yes there are horrible things that have happened you know across right across rural Scotland.

[00:29:25]Um, interestingly the event at Hollywood, uh, one of the speakers there was from an organization called the John Mure Trust, I think, and they are a body that seeks to protect wild spaces. And one of the things that they said was that um, they reckoned that there are now uh, only two Monroes in Scotland from which you can't see a wind turbine.

[00:29:52]Um and so yes, a lot of this stuff is built. I think the big fear is how much more is there to come? Um particularly when you look at the demand for data centers, you know, how much is that going to increase our our electricity consumption by? So I I fear that yes there will be still you know great big more demands for for more power and [snorts] if the if the answer at the highest level is to say we're going to turn Shetland into a big industrial estate then I think people are saying when did we vote for that?

[00:30:37]>> Absolutely.

[00:30:42]So um what we are what we have been offered is is money. I mean we talk about community benefit funds. Um I I noticed there was a quote from the center for local economies which says communities are missing out on millions and there's an enormous gulf between private profit and community benefit. Um would would a financial answer be satisfying for people? I mean, you're talking about impact on landscape and people's lives. Um, people like Alistister Cooper, for example, at at Delton Community Council, he says, "Well, if we got cheaper electricity bills, then everybody would be happy."

[00:31:25]What's what's your the feeling both of you there?

[00:31:30]>> This I I got asked this question um by Hannah Mary Good. We were having a conversation um prior to her election and I was kind of voicing my fears about it and she said what would be your incentive if the community was getting greater benefit or if you were getting cheaper altruisticity how do you feel with it then Jennifer um and I think at that point I thought it would maybe sweeten the pull for me to an extent >> however I have entirely changed my view on that when I actually went the consultations and saw the scale of the destruction that's going to happen in in our islands. Um, and for me that's not an argument at all. Um, quality of life, health, your environment, the that custodial aspect that we have been chased to be for our environment and for the place that we live and for the place that I feel so passionately about. Um, financial recompense that for me know that that has no water because we are custodians over lawn.

[00:32:32]King. I am a very prud, very passionate Shetlander. I love where I live. I love the environment we have. I wouldn't live anywhere else. I don't think anybody can come a price for that, that can come weigh anything that can uh offset the destruction that this is that these developments are going to have on our communities. Um, one of the things that's being vandal is that this um, the developments will going to be provide housing for the construction phase which is then going to come into community ownership at the end of it. What is the point of having hosing all the way through Y if nobody wants to live in an in a industrial winter? Look, the houses are going to be empty. What is going to f them if you're going to live with a substation and power cables running by your door?

[00:33:19]To me, that's a non-argument.

[00:33:23]I I would agree with a lot of that in that I remember we went through the Viking build and we had the community liaison group meetings with with SSER and somehow they used to give an update each month or each each meeting on the on the community benefit fund and we were having a bit of an argument about that one time and and the and they ended up asking us something like, "Well, you know, don't you want it?" or something like this. And and the response to them was, "Well, if you gave the community the choice between saying, you know, you can take the community benefit fund away and we'll take the wind farm away." Then I think the majority of people would have said, "Fine, take the wind farm away. We'll live without the money." Um I think there reaches a point though where eventually some of this stuff the decision at the government level is it's point um our community we we've talked about this a bit and the vast majority of people in the community are extremely pragmatic when it gets to that point.

[00:34:41]So about probably between 18 months and two years ago um S um Stackcraft raised the possibility of um offering a a community stake in Mossy Hill.

[00:34:54]>> Mhm.

[00:34:54]>> We don't [snorts] us and Scarawa Community Council and the Scarawa Community Development Company, we talked about this and and there's all sorts of grants available from the Scottish government to look into this stuff. So, I think the the SEDC got a grant and we took some legal advice and and had somebody very good who explained to us how it would work. And then Stackcraft took us through all the same stuff as well.

[00:35:22]And we talked to um people just to say right, okay, how would you feel about this? And as I say, people if you explain to them once you reach the point where whatever you do, well, you cannot do anything to stop it anymore. Um, so like with Mossy Hill, you reach a point where they have planning permission. The decision is solely with the Statcraft board as to whether it goes ahead or not. So as a community you then have a choice that says do you want the whole bag of money to go to Norway every year or do you want some of it to stay in Shhatland then people will say you know it'll stay in you know they want some of it to stay in Shhatland. I have friends who live out of Glouster and out of their kitchen window they look at Viking and hate it. Yeah. But their view is if you reached a point with a development where it's going to happen, there's nothing you can do to stop it. Then the community has to make the best of it.

[00:36:22]>> Yeah.

[00:36:23]>> And the trouble is that at the moment we're not even getting that. You know, community benefit is what £5,000. So the £5,000 was first mentioned I think about 2012 2014.

[00:36:39]>> Just just Andrew, could you explain what you mean by 5,000?

[00:36:43]>> Oh, sorry. Fine. So, so developers are encouraged uh they're not obliged um to uh offer community benefit uh of £5,000 per installed megawatt. So for Viking that equates to £2.2 million a year. For Mossy Hill we think it's going to be about £160,000 a year.

[00:37:09]Um but this £5,000 per installed megawatt came out about 2012 2014.

[00:37:17]If you looked at inflation it ought to be at least £7,000. Now the government um recently you know said well they think it should be £6,000 but you know Viking paying £5,000 index linked we've had two meetings of the Stackcraft community liaison group and the first meeting of that stackcraft were asked you know what are you going to pay and their message was it's going to be the £5,000 um the community ownership stake it was Stackcraft who raised it. But um the last since probably about October last year, the message has been well, we're not actually in a position to offer that yet. You know, wait and see. And it's hard not to get a feeling that that maybe they're not as keen as they were.

[00:38:12]Um, and you know, when it was first raised, we we looked into it in detail and it would be a good way for the community to get something back. I mean, if if you look at two ends of the extreme, at one end you've got something like the Gwind Farm in Yell, which is wholly community owned, >> and yes, you've got to live with it, but on the other hand, it does fantastic things in in terms of what it can then provide for their community.

[00:38:41]At the other end of the scale, you've probably got Viking, you know, where you're getting paid the £5,000.

[00:38:47]Um, community, you know, a community stake of say 10%, you know, gives you somewhere between the two. And we got as far as talking to banks last year, um, you know, about borrowing the money to do this and perfectly feasible. You can do it at no risk to the community. um where um effectively you buy part of the joint venture um and if it all goes horribly wrong, the bank just takes the shares in the joint venture. So there's no risk to the community in doing it. So all these things are perfectly feasible.

[00:39:24]The council has said, "Yeah, we want to see better community benefit. We would like to see community ownership."

[00:39:29]Scottish government is is is encouraging community ownership, but unless unless it becomes compulsory, which is something that can only be done at government level, I I just do not see these things happening. Um Denmark developers in Denmark are uh legally obliged to offer a 20% stake to the community. Um so whilst we might not want these things to happen, you know, I fear that there are some things still where government is, you know, if government says tough, you're going to get it, then at least let's let's get some of the benefit of it from it rather than it all going to SSE shareholders or the Norwegian government.

[00:40:18]>> Yeah, I I agree. I mean, ideally, I wouldn't want any of it, but I No, that's that's not that's not actually true. It's not that I don't want any of it. It's the infrastructure that sur that I'm objecting to most of all or the impact of the infrastructure. And I think that's where SSEN has uh a responsibility here. And I think what's happening in Yale with the overhead lines and the substation being located where their preferred site is I think that's the thing that I am objecting to most not renewable energy in principle it's the impact of the infrastructure that surrounds it and the way in which the impact of that infrastructure is not being minimized in their communities and I agree with you entirely Andrew I think there are some things that we cannot do anything about and we have to make the best the best of a bad job in that and get as much for our communities as we possibly can. I think the I mean I might be talking at the turn here, but I think the L community council at the moment are really looking into increasing that £5,000 and are working hard to in negotiations around that we start craft I think. But I I I think I'm right in saying that. But again, what power do we really have in this? And is is that feasible?

[00:41:29]>> Exactly. Exactly. As long as it remains voluntary. I mean, it's not even compulsory for them to offer the 5,000 quid. Um but um but I think as long as it's voluntary, I can't see things changing. Um but it's but you you're right, Jennifer, though. It's this bigger picture of uh let's have a look at what is it that communities want, you know, because um there is more to there's more to the environment than saying we're going to be net zero. If the cost of net zero is to trash what makes Shhatland special, >> yeah, >> then we we're missing the point somewhere.

[00:42:09]>> Totally.

[00:42:10]>> It's like why why can we not have um cheaper electricity in Shhatland? That's a thing that lots of folk do want.

[00:42:19]>> Or maybe us sitting here thinking we can afford our bills, but there are lots of f >> I agree with you, Jen. I agree. That is a big thing. we we are having to lift we all of this um for very little benefits for our communities and I I do agree with that man I think that there really needs to be >> I mean there fuel pro fuel poverty is like it's a big thing inland absolutely >> I think if if if developers had approached in a reasonable way for could have been far on board >> but it's too lit for a lot of that now so so where do we go for the Again, it's down to the government. You know, our MSPs have to step in and say, um, things need to happen differently. You cannot just trample on these people, wreck the environment, take the money, and and give people the crumbs. You you talk about government there, Andrew, and you talk about the Danish government and the 20% ownership um uh law, shall we say.

[00:43:24]Now, would that be something um if we had the power if if if we had the power to to make a change, would that government decision be a Westminster decision or would that be a Holy Rude decision? Any any thoughts on that? Any idea?

[00:43:39]>> Don't know.

[00:43:40]>> You don't I don't know who um there is this, you know, thing of what is what is Devolved to Holy Rude and what is Westminster and I don't know where that would sit between the two. Um, >> but whichever one it is, you know, let's try and do it.

[00:43:55]>> I mean, there seems to be a, as we've been saying here, there's a a race on, there's a rush on, there's a hurry, there's a >> they don't, what you're calling for is for everything to slow down so it can be reconsidered. And, and from everything that you're saying, it sounds like there really could do with a a huge reconsideration about the laws around these developments.

[00:44:17]>> Yeah. uh with communities being taken into consideration. What alarms me is that it's coming down to this community council level to have the argument. I mean you what what is this kind of uh political structure governance structure that we're living in where the people's voice has to where the where the call has to come from the grassroots at that level. It doesn't seem that the the government systems, the local government system, the national government system, the devolved government system is capable of dealing with this onslaught from industry and corporate corporate demand if you like. And there seems to be a lack of thought from the corporations themselves about about how this could be done most effectively because surely it would be in their interest to be working alongside communities rather than imposing their their their plans on communities because it just creates um bad feeling resistance kind of look at the Viking energy one you know the decision was made prime without consultation then when They went to consultation. They discovered that the community wasn't that happy with the idea. It slowed the whole process down which made life difficult for everybody.

[00:45:34]>> So the community, Pete, like it wasn't the whole community. You had to be level about that.

[00:45:40]>> No, absolutely. But I mean the the point was there was enough resistance within the community to slow the whole process down because there wasn't proper consultation. There wasn't proper consideration made of people's feelings.

[00:45:52]So it's in everybody's interests to to to do this collectively rather than having it imposed from above for for financial profitable reasons.

[00:46:04]Yeah, I think at the end of the day I think as long as Stackcraft and SSSE shareholders make their money in the end, then um I don't think they're that bothered. Viking I think Viking I think was a particular mess because of the historic structure of the charitable trust and the and the council of trustees. Um so um I think Viking is just a peculiar example of how things can go wrong. M >> and would I be right in saying that the constraints that have been paid for wind farms in Shhatland or Scotland it comes to 26 million pounds >> I think it's I think it's probably way way more than that. Um, well, I I I'm a customer of Octopus Energy, and until recently, whenever you signed into your Octopus account, it told you at the top of the front page how much was being paid in constraint payments. And they've changed the website recently, so it doesn't show it anymore. But I think June time when I logged in, it was saying that across the UK so far this year, constraint payments were something like 600 million.

[00:47:22]>> [laughter] >> It is just vast vast sums and and and and I think you know for for people up here >> it just rubs salt in the wind that you know the idea is here is this development that you know back to this idea of the glossy brochure you've got to pay your you know play your part and then it's a windy day so we'll turn it off. It's just it's no wonder people get up with it.

[00:47:49]I mean we could have I have free power in Shhatland for you came for >> them for that.

[00:47:56]>> Yeah. Keep one of them going and give us free. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That'd be nice.

[00:48:02]>> So So you said um Andrew that Shetler needs to have a big fight with SSC and Stackcraft, but the experience with Viking doesn't give you much confidence.

[00:48:14]How how are you feeling about this this um do you feel >> what's your level of >> what I'm saying I think is that if you look at what's in the Shetland development charter then it puts uh uh encourages the what it calls the investors to do certain things and the it's then going to be up to the council to um hold [snorts] them to account and um try and get them to adhere to the aims of this charter. Um our experience with with with the Viking build was that we never got the impression that the council wanted to fight with SSE. It was always the the council always appeared to be terrified of SSE. um even on things that appeared to be totally totally black and white. Um so for example, if you look at the issue of the the decommissioning bond uh so SSE h received a consent from the um Scottish government's energy consent unit to build the wind farm and the consent has all sorts of conditions in it of things that they have to do. One of them is that you have to have a decommissioning bond in place and the consent consent was absolutely explicit.

[00:49:43]It says this must be in place before construction starts. If you cannot agree the terms of what the decommissioning bond should be here is how it should be resolved and this and this must be resolved before things start. Yeah. But that didn't happen. and you put it to the council that say, "Hang on, is this not black and white that, you know, they have to do this first?" And it's like, "Oh, well, no, no, we can't do that."

[00:50:12]Um, and if that's going to be the the constant message to developers that immediately you um threaten us with legal action or anything, we're just immediately going to fold. Then you're not going to get anything out of them.

[00:50:28]And and as I say, so the idea of having the of having the argument with them, if the council's not willing to stand up to them at times, then we're just going to get walked all over again.

[00:50:41]>> Yeah. I mean, we've had Gary Robinson saying the chances of a moratorium are slim to none.

[00:50:46]>> I I the chances aren't high, but if we don't do it, the chances are definitely none.

[00:50:55]>> [snorts] >> Um, so yeah, if if we don't fight, then we're just going to get everything that was in the consultations and potentially a lot more. So, um, yeah, you know, I I would agree that it's going to be a um a hard one to win, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to try and do it.

[00:51:24]So where does hope lie?

[00:51:28]>> Hope has to lie in our MSPs.

[00:51:32]that the the the the only way things will change is if our MSPs put sufficient pressure on the Scottish government to um a pause things, b instigate the planning inquiry commission, c make the uh convention bodies, the community councils a stakeholder in the strategic spatial energy plan so that communities full the full impact on communities is considered. I mean if you look at the the development the council's development was it called Shetland development charter and the previous the um energy draft energy strategy that came before it. You look at the bodies that are on there and you can't help thinking well this seems to be awfully focused towards the energy industry. you know where is the fishing industry in this consultation or in in this development of this policy? Where is the tourism industry in the development of this policy? There needs to be a much a much wider view and one of the ways is is then that communities and comm community councils effectively get involved as a stakeholder in developing this policy at the highest level [clears throat] so that we say look it's not all about achieving the maximum um output that you can from windy shhatland you've got to take other aspects into into account.

[00:53:12]Well, >> sounds fair.

[00:53:14]>> That seems like a a a reasonable note to end on. Um, is there anything else? I mean, there's this is such a big subject. There are many other aspects to it as well, but I mean I think that basically what you're calling for is a >> a slowdown, a rethink and your faith lies in MSPs putting pressure on the Scottish government or your hope perhaps? I hope I [laughter] hope I without government action things will not change and um and I and I fear that you know all the things that that our community and and Jennifer fears you know will come to pass. But sorry just one thing I would add just just to go back to the the confusion and and chaos.

[00:54:04]So we had, if you look at the offshore stuff, you know, we had uh one of the offshore developers handed back their license for 500 megawws in [clears throat] March, April. And there's the report this week saying that um quite a few of the proposal or the options that are being put forward under the um spatial energy plan will mean that that Shetland's offshore wind farms will potentially not be able to deliver the power. So, so until we've got that sorted out, why are we doing all this stuff now in saying we're going to have this massive substation here and links to here, there, and elsewhere?

[00:54:47]>> Let's let's sort out what we're going to what the developers are going to build first and >> get that absolutely sorted and then build what we need to to accommodate that because at the moment we just seem to have the um the cart before the horse.

[00:55:05]>> Yeah. and and actually listening to communities. I mean my my argument around the substation and yell is the size of yell. I mean I understand Andrew as is you have a clear overview of what's happening in the holy [ __ ] and I came into this very much thinking of what's happening in my community and the placing of the substation the driver seems to be cost. I mean yell is 82 square miles. There's a lot of space in the center of Yell where that substation could be located. It would be a bit more inconvenient, but it would have less impact on the communities that's living around the periphery of Yale. And it's it's that even that granular that bit of listening to the communities at that level that I want to see happening. Yes, I want to see what what you're saying about the bigger picture. That's really important and and this has happened through Shetland, but can even at that level of of where we're at now, can we not look as a community and say this could be done better for us and that community seems to be being ignored. One of the things that going back to the the cables or the polls through Tingwall, one of the things that really annoyed me there was that you speak to SSEN and SSN say we're a regulated business offg control how much we can spend.

[00:56:21]>> Um so on the one hand you've got SSN saying no no no we can't do that too expensive. Mhm.

[00:56:28]>> But the reason they're putting it in is uh is is for you know they're doing loads of stuff for SSR another part of the same company making money hand over fist out of Viking. So >> you know it's one set of shareholders at the end of the day who are making the money. Um, as you say, there ought to be a bit more consideration of what the what the community wants and and putting more money into mitigating the impacts of what we have to live with.

[00:57:01]>> Yeah. And I think it's important to say that it's just hugely complicated for the ordinary >> Yes. ordinary [ __ ] to get their head around like it's it's so difficult.

[00:57:15]>> Yes.

[00:57:16]>> Absolutely.

[00:57:18]Yeah, very much so. And that's where we as a community I think the feeling when I speak to [ __ ] and yell is that we're getting hoodbunked here and and that annoys me [laughter] cuz I think we need to I mean even me I started looking at this and I've read a lot and listened a lot this past few weeks and it's it is hugely complicated but what still stands out to me at the end of this is when you read into SSE's um kind of manifesto where they're going to do it in reasons for picking why they're putting stuff where and it comes back to accessibility cost there are there are things I think that could be happening for the benefit of our community that's not because of cost >> and that to me is desperately unfair and that's where we as a community need to be standing up and saying if this has to happen and I like Andrew very much fear that it does if this has to happen and we are going to be stuck with us let's mark the best of a bad job here Let's get these things. Let's get the cables buried. Let's get the substation in the center of yell where the pit could be putting overunded so that the soon this is mult. If this has to happen, let's not just sit back and let SS be making the decisions. Let's have a real community voice in this. Let's really speak up and say this is what we're wanting and this is what we need as a community.

[00:58:42]>> Yeah.

[00:58:43]>> Well, excellent. On that note, um I think that's a good point to end this conversation. I think it's been very valuable. B basically it boils down to the community needs a louder, stronger voice and it needs to be heard.

[00:58:58]>> Agreed.

[00:58:58]>> So thank you very much indeed. I imagine that we'll be having more conversations about this over the weeks and months ahead. So um >> thanks a lot for coming along to Shakes.

[00:59:08]>> Yeah.

[00:59:08]>> Thank you.

[00:59:09]>> Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:59:11]>> Shikaboo Shetland. Shakes a boot [music] shitland. So much going on here every single day. Shakes a boot [ __ ] Shakes a boot shitland. Everybody's got that much they want to say. Shakes a boot [ __ ] Shakes a boot [ __ ] Going to do her best to put the world daylight. Shakes a [ __ ] [music] Shakes a good [ __ ] Come along and listen to the speaking.