Eastern Orthodoxy, Oral Tradition, and the Problem of Liturgical Development

Added: 2026-05-18

[00:00:00]For years now, I've been listening to various priests and online apologists defend Eastern Orthodoxy. Everyone from Father Stephen De Young to Jay Dyer to Father Josiah Trenham, Father Patrick, clergy and lay apologists alike, the exquisitely sober to full Orthobro flex types.

[00:00:21]As I've listened, one thing quickly becomes apparent. Eastern Orthodoxy claims to be in possession of capital T tradition, which is to say that they adhere to the oral traditions handed down from the apostles. They have them.

[00:00:36]They keep them.

[00:00:38]Now, here a familiar passage should come to everyone's mind. It's one that continually arises in these discussions, and it's of course 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which says, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

[00:01:00]Apostolic instructions were given orally and in written form. Both were binding and authoritative, and Eastern Orthodoxy claims to adhere to both.

[00:01:11]No one should have a problem with the claim. They can make the claim.

[00:01:15]Considered in the abstract, it's not unreasonable, but the claim needs to be verifiable, right? There needs to be a way for a person to discern authenticity from error, a way to discern false claims or misguided claims from true claims. So, if you're someone like myself who sincerely wants to know the truth, the claim is going to have to be tested. I mean, not only not only could their claim be false, but there are other competing paradigms out there. Other groups argue similarly, but arrive at different conclusions.

[00:01:49]In light of all this, here's an important question I keep asking myself.

[00:01:55]Where, precisely, are the oral teachings of the apostles and the church fathers?

[00:02:01]Because acknowledging the reality of tradition during the days of the apostles is quite different than locating that tradition in the church fathers.

[00:02:12]Let me say that again. Acknowledging the reality of an authoritative tradition during the days of the apostles is quite different than locating that tradition in the church fathers.

[00:02:23]How can we be sure what is binding apostolic tradition and what isn't?

[00:02:29]The church fathers had their disagreements. They prescribed different things. There are gaps of information.

[00:02:34]So, what is an infallible data point they have preserved and how do we know?

[00:02:41]Now, in order to put some flesh on this, I'd like for us to look at one concrete example.

[00:02:48]Liturgy or corporate corporate Lord's Day worship.

[00:02:52]What are the specific directives given regarding such things?

[00:02:59]In some of our earliest extra-biblical sources, we have some specific instructions and examples of what things looked like.

[00:03:07]In the Didache, for example, we are given a fairly detailed directives about what should be done like this is what you should do or, you know, how you should pray all the while claiming to represent apostolic teaching.

[00:03:20]I want to look at the Didache more closely and I want to I want it to be a kind of test case. And as we do do so, here's the important question I want to keep in the foreground.

[00:03:31]Is this authentic authoritative apostolic teaching prescribed in the Didache, right? Like it is what we're going to look at authentic authoritative apostolic teaching prescribed or preserved in the Didache and how do we know? Because here's the thing. So far as I'm aware, Orthodoxy doesn't follow the liturgical instructions prescribed in the Didache.

[00:03:57]Why not? It claims to be authentic. It's quite early. So, why not do exactly what it says?

[00:04:06]I mean, how do we know that this isn't a preserved capital T tradition?

[00:04:13]All right. So, with this in mind, let's let's look at the text here.

[00:04:18]It's a It comes from chapter 9. And in in here the context is instructions are given regarding the Eucharist. I I'll put them up here on the screen so you can see it and and read along if you want while I read it. But basically, specific prayers are prescribed. And notice, it says give thanks this way.

[00:04:36]All right. Here's what should be said for the cup. All right, here's So, here we go.

[00:04:40]Now, concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup. We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David, thy servant, which you made us known to us through Jesus, thy servant. To thee be glory forever.

[00:04:54]Then, concerning the broken bread, uh here's what it says. And concerning the broken bread, we give thee, our Father, we thank thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which you made us known to us through Jesus, thy servant.

[00:05:07]To thee be the glory forever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills and was gathered together and became one, so let thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom. For thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever. But, let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord. For concerning this, also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs." Now, right after this, continue on, it says it goes on to say how you should give thanks after you are filled, okay? After you're filled. All right.

[00:05:45]Here's what it says.

[00:05:47]But after you are filled give thanks this way. And here, you know, here you have a a long uh detailed prayer that they prescribe.

[00:05:59]And then after that at the end it says, "But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire."

[00:06:07]All right.

[00:06:08]What do we What do we make of this?

[00:06:11]Let's just bullet a few observations.

[00:06:13]All right. Number one, the prayers appear to be used verbatim. They are set prayers.

[00:06:19]Two, prophets, whoever they are exactly, can give Thanksgiving as much as they desire.

[00:06:25]Three, the Eucharistic structure appears to be fairly simple in nature.

[00:06:30]Four, a person needs to be baptized in order to partake. And lastly, giving thanks after you are filled suggests a substantive quantity of food. And this likely means that it was done in the context of agape love feast, which was a common early practice.

[00:06:48]In view of these things, what is capital T tradition?

[00:06:52]So far as I'm aware, these specific prayers are not expressed in the Divine Liturgy of Eastern Orthodoxy.

[00:06:59]And certainly not verbatim. But why not?

[00:07:01]I mean, if if Paul said to pray these prayers in say First Corinthians, we would undoubtedly follow the formula very carefully. It would function as a kind of divinely ordered liturgical formula.

[00:07:15]So what's going on with the Didache?

[00:07:18]If they are divinely authoritative, representing something orally handed down by the apostles, then we should be incorporating these prayers and the details surrounding them more precisely.

[00:07:30]We don't have very many early sources prescribing liturgical practices. And so if the Didache, which is an extremely early source, isn't binding, then the whole idea of an apostolic liturgy handed down, which is discernible and verifiable, is muddied by the presence of such an esteemed document like the Didache.

[00:07:50]Minimally, it suggests a lack of uniformity in the early church.

[00:07:57]Eastern Orthodox acclaim that the Divine Liturgy was handed down by the apostles in some profoundly relevant sense.

[00:08:03]However, there is a wide gap between the early examples and what we see introduced in the third and fourth centuries and beyond. They're really quite different.

[00:08:13]So, if you're someone like myself who's trying to discern a criteria by which such claims can be adjudicated or verified, what do I do when the evidence found in the early church doesn't line up?

[00:08:28]Here, let me add something um from Father Moses. I was listening to him answer, I think it was called like 101 questions, and during that he he said something quite peculiar. Uh he he Here's what he said. There were many other things that were written. In fact, one of the most famous of which is called the Didache, which was written by the apostles. And it literally says in the Didache that didn't our Lord Jesus Christ institute fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays?

[00:08:56]Fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays was instituted by Jesus Christ, but it's not in the New Testament. But all the early Christians knew this. Why? Because they had the Didache.

[00:09:05]>> [clears throat] >> The Didache was written by the apostles?

[00:09:09]I find this to be an exceedingly odd claim. I mean, written by the apostles?

[00:09:13]Surely he means informed by the apostles. I mean, I I like the Didache.

[00:09:18]There's a lot of useful instructions that are not only helpful historically, but helpful in terms of accurately reflecting Christian virtue, but written by the apostles? I mean, if it was written by the apostles, wouldn't that make it inspired in some highly relevant sense?

[00:09:34]But regardless of what one thinks of Father Moses' statement, I want to keep pressing my finger on the central issue.

[00:09:41]Why aren't the prescriptions found in the Didache regarding the Eucharist binding apostolic instruction handed down?

[00:09:49]I want to know how we know specifically.

[00:09:53]I don't want blanket statements, nor would a church council necessarily decided later based upon a different line of argumentation.

[00:10:00]If something oral was handed down, that should leave a clear imprint, and I'm asking for the and why the seeming imprint in say the Didache is not it.

[00:10:12]Here might Someone might say, uh well, the fact that those prayers weren't included later with the church is all the evidence you need. Um If those prayers weren't apostolic tradition, I mean, if those church if those prayers were apostolic tradition, then the church would have kept them.

[00:10:32]I I mean, but of course that feels tendentious, uh especially when a person takes into account what is seen in other early church context.

[00:10:43]There's a whole panoply of differences.

[00:10:45]We have details in 1 Corinthians chapters 10 through 14, for example. We have the Didache dating, I mean, maybe it dates to earliest 70, maybe to 150 AD, let's just say 110 AD.

[00:10:56]We have a brief statement from Pliny the Younger in 112 AD. We have a statement from Justin Martyr around 150. We have the apostolic tradition with Hippolytus in say 215.

[00:11:06]And you have Tertullian's apology around 200, etc. These all combine to form a picture differing significantly from what we see emerge later in church history. I mean, for anyone who has read through the apostolic tradition by Hippolytus, this is going to be the most obvious thing in the world. I mean, just read it, seriously.

[00:11:29]Look at the the they baptized. The way they anointed with oil, the prescriptions around exorcism, the prescribed prayers, the details surrounding leaderships and catechumens and so on.

[00:11:40]And of course, the instructions laid out claiming to be presuming preserving the the right tradition. Here's what it says at the beginning.

[00:11:52]But now, moved by his love to all the saints, we pass on to you our most important theme, the tradition, our teacher.

[00:12:00]And we address the churches so that they who have been well trained may by our instruction hold fast that tradition, which is continued up to now and knowing it well may be strengthened. This is needful because of the lapse of error which recently occurred through ignorance and because of ignorant men.

[00:12:18]And the Holy Spirit will supply perfect grace to those who believe a right that they may know how all things should be transmitted and kept by them who rule the church.

[00:12:28]Let's Let's swing away from the third century back to the first century and make a similar point from 1 Corinthians, specifically chapters 10 through 14. Uh Let's look at 14:26.

[00:12:42]Here's what it says.

[00:12:43]What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.

[00:12:52]Let all things be done for building up.

[00:12:56]The picture we see is a very dynamic, free-flowing Yes, with clear guidelines uh for prophecy and tongues, but still these house church settings appear to have a lot of freedom of form. You have various prophet sharing, you have tongues being interpreted, you have the gift of prophecy playing a vital role.

[00:13:15]You have an agape love feast featuring prominently with the Lord's Supper and so on.

[00:13:19]Everything was to be done decently and in order, but it didn't appear to be highly scripted.

[00:13:25]There was probably a basic structure to things, but nothing resembling the ornate and detailed liturgies we see much later in church history.

[00:13:34]Now, even as I say that, let me be clear. I'm not saying that the liturgies of the late 3rd or 4th centuries are necessarily bad. They're just different.

[00:13:42]They clearly evolved being far more scripted, more formal.

[00:13:47]And here's the point.

[00:13:49]What is verifiable early and not so early doesn't mirror what comes later?

[00:13:56]Are there some discernable similarities?

[00:13:57]Well, yes, of course, but mirror?

[00:14:00]No.

[00:14:01]So, again, be precise. The Didache prescribes specific instructions. How do we know that the specificity detailed in those instructions isn't apostolic, especially when it claims to represent apostolic tradition?

[00:14:20]This is a sincere question.

[00:14:22]I I just don't see how an appeal to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 bears much teeth for the Protestant. There's all kinds of instructions and practices uh practices surrounding early Christian worship that differ from what we see today.

[00:14:38]And from my vantage point, this isn't a huge deal in terms of acceptable variance of practice. That seems to be baked in to the New Testament ethos.

[00:14:49]But, as soon as someone levels apostolic tradition at your face like a rifle, then it is only natural to ask where that tradition is specifically located and how a person knows that that specific instruction is apostolic.

[00:15:04]If the reply is going to run along the lines of the spirit guiding the church into all truth through later centuries, well, then why wasn't what we see in the early available documents the spirit's preservation of what should be done?

[00:15:20]As always, thank you for watching. My goal My goal here is to make videos that are as honest as possible. I want to be I want to be known as a man who loves and wants truth. Whatever it is, I want it.

[00:15:31]And I hope to continue making content delving into thorny topics that occupy the thoughts of both the great and small alike. So, please, if you respect this approach, please like and subscribe and and and press me on. And in the meantime, I would really like to hear your comments on this thing, especially if you're Eastern Orthodox. That's who That's who I'm really asking this question to. And I want I want a clear answer for these specific questions. So, as always, thank you very much.