Caller DEFENDS Faith Then Collapses Under Questions (feat Paulogia)

追加: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]You know, I am a little bit more of a progressive Christian. I've seen a lot of fundamentalism and a lot of a lot of atheist. It seems to me come out of fundamentalism.

[00:00:12]And I'm wondering what you think. I I have I haven't heard I've only come across your channel and your work just fairly recently. I've tried to dig into as much as I could before I call, but I'm wondering what you think about more progressive Christianity. I haven't seen you tackle it as much. It seems like you're dealing with things like young earth creationism, Ken Ham style stuff, which is hilarious.

[00:00:34]>> You haven't watched Paul's channel in a long ass time by the sounds of it.

[00:00:38]>> Well, yeah. May maybe I've seen a lot of like uh of of the Ken Ham stuff on Paul's channel and things like that, but maybe I've just like >> No, that's older stuff. Well, I I don't I think you would be correct to say that I have not dealt with a lot of progressive Christian stuff because I like to respond directly to the claims of Christians and I find that progressive Christianity doesn't have the same kind of coherent cohesive message that they are putting forth and wanting other people to adopt.

[00:01:18]Rightly or wrongly, that seems to be my perception of progressive Christianity.

[00:01:23]It is more come to us with your ideas and we will figure out how all of our ideas can work together for the betterment of the community that we're in right at the moment versus evangelical Christianity is making more bold claims about the the way reality works. So it's easier obviously to and and easy of course it doesn't really matter what's easy what's not easy the progressive Christianity isn't because it's not again because it's not putting forth those those straightforward ideas it's it's a little less coherent I also find it to be somewhat less pro problematic in that they have come to some of these same some of the same things that I'm talking about they've already come to the realization of. So progressive Christians tend to fully acknowledge and accept the things that I put forth are the problems in the Bible. Right? So say for we unknown authorship or the unlikelihood that it's an eyewitness or that you know the Old Testament was clearly not written by Moses in the way they think it was or that prophecy may not work the way that people think that it does. A lot of progressive Christianity just says, "Yes, that's fine." and takes that on board. Or, "Oh, that the earth is four billion years old. Okay, that's also fine." So, I guess that's that's a bit rambly, but that's kind of why progressive Christianity hasn't been as much on on my radar. What was your thoughts about it? Does that >> Well, sounds like it's more just It's hard to nail down like kind of nailing nailing jello- to a wall kind of thing.

[00:03:04]They're a little more squishy.

[00:03:07]>> It's hard to nail down. They're also less I I think, tell me if you think I'm wrong, progressive Christianity is a lot less about recruitment and a lot less about even being right about something.

[00:03:19]I think that progressive Christians don't tend to say that they have specific answers in the same way that an evangelical does.

[00:03:27]So, you know, if you're going to if you're going to make a YouTube video about about a worldview, it's it's a little Yeah, but you're not you're not wrong. It's a little it's a little less there's less of a coherent worldview with progressive Christianity to to put forth. I also feel like and this would be more controversial take that people who are progressive Christians from my view are basically people on the way out who are holding residual who who like the label and even though the positions they hold are very incompatible with the way the label would traditionally have been used. they're going to adopt the new positions that are maybe less problematic, but for whatever reason, they got the label. And so if if someone doesn't have the if someone's not espousing or creating the problems that I see with Christianity, but still want to call themselves that, it's like, well, okay, go knock yourself out. I think you're being intellectually dishonest in a lot of cases, but fine. Like I I feel like they're just they're on their way out, so I don't need to help them. Maybe is that is that a more controversial take?

[00:04:41]>> I I'm not sure progressive Christians are real Christians in a sense that I that I would call that. Sure. Let's let's put that out there.

[00:04:48]>> The niche of people that you thought were real Christians though is pretty >> vanishingly small group of people.

[00:04:56]>> Yeah.

[00:04:56]>> Well, when you're an evangelical Yeah.

[00:04:58]Like >> Yeah. Yeah, I I called I called in and and talked to Matt the other day and he uh basically yelled at me and said I wasn't a real Christian and hung up on me.

[00:05:11]>> Oh well.

[00:05:12]>> So >> y I don't know what you said to Matt, but >> Well, no, I I understand that's like that's like his his personality or whatever it seems like, but I don't know. It it seems like it was it's very much like uh you know Jesus Christ to me uh seemed like most of the New Testament he was fighting against what we would call fundamentalists and fundamentalism.

[00:05:38]He was fighting against traditions and people who were uh stuck. He was showing them that the law was something that was given as an accommodation for them and that they needed to go by a new law of Christ and a new law of love and liberty. And so it's really it it's it's strange to me that I mean I I guess I mean it makes sense that that that there that you would fight more against fundamentalists and fundamentalism because it is it's a problem. Um, >> well, for starters, like before you say anything, I Paul doesn't really fight against fundamentalism. Paul does textual criticism. So, you haven't haven't watched his channel in a while, I'm assuming, or you're not addressing the content that he makes because he's not speaking to X type of Christian or Y type of Christian. He's opening up the Bible and going through the history >> that goes alongside it and saying this is why this doesn't make sense. This is an alternate explanation. This is where things contradict each other. This is where it falls apart. That textual criticism is available for anyone atheist, Hindu, every sect of Christian, Muslim, everybody to look at. It is not directly addressing evangelism.

[00:06:57]It's specifically talking about Christianity as a whole directly from the book. So, he's not addressing evangelicals or going after evangelicals. If you want to talk about somebody going after evangelicals, I'm probably your daisy there because my my focus in in my activism is protecting people from harm and people having poor epistemologies.

[00:07:20]>> So, >> so Wes, when you when you call into a show like this, >> why are you So, I guess I'm curious. Are you calling in to get affirmation for yourself that you are right? Are you calling in to try to tell us that we are wrong? Like are you do are you trying to convert maybe I'm wrong. Are you trying to convert us? Do you think our lives would be better if we would be the way you were?

[00:07:44]>> Um I think that uh I think that I you know I just haven't heard a lot of your opinions on specifically on progressive Christianity. So, I was just trying to get a little bit more information on that or, you know, find out where you stood on that. Um, you on the textual side, I think that that fits as well, um, I think progressive Christians would would lean more towards a dynamic model of inspiration. Um so even going towards you know kind of critiquing contradictions and and errors and things like that are kind of are kind of solved if you look at an ongoing inspiration uh model of scripture versus some type of original inspiration or autograph inspiration or something along those lines. Um, so, you know, that's >> Do you think that you do you think that you are in a better position going into the afterlife than Shannon and I?

[00:08:44]>> Do you I mean I I believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and I believe that he promised that um people who claim him and follow him will rise from the dead as well. So, I think that if you uh I mean it depends on if you want to live forever. Um I believe that there's a that that there is I mean I have faith in a resurrection and so I mean if you if you want to die and be gone and and that's it then uh that's fine. Um but if you want to uh if you have any type of hope for a resurrection then I would say that Jesus Christ is the best hope for a resurrection then that exists on earth.

[00:09:25]But not the only hope then. But the You said it was the best hope. So there's other hopes that if I wanted to live forever, there's other routes I could take.

[00:09:34]>> No, there's no other route that I know of. Um Jesus Christ is ex >> Yeah. Um because Jesus Christ is is very exclusive in in his claim. You know, no man cometh to the father but by me. I do believe that. So, um, it's kind of like one of those things where once you accept that, uh, you I mean, it's a it's it's definitely a an exclusive thing.

[00:09:59]It's not like a all roads lead to God kind of a situation.

[00:10:02]>> Okay. So, if if Shann and I are just okay with not with not living forever, then then we're fine. Do you think that Shannon and I on Earth right now are that we are that the earth would be better? like would this life be better if Shannon and I were Christians versus what we're doing now?

[00:10:22]>> Um, I think that at this point in humanity, at this point in like the history of of humans, I think that the difference is negligible and or more negligible. I think that um that there is some that there's some deep joy that comes along with and a peace that comes along with um with feeling like uh with with a hope of seeing loved ones that have that have passed away. So I think there's that. Um I think that there's a you know it's there can be a genuine fear of death that causes all kinds of harm, >> but that's all next that's all next life stuff, right?

[00:11:01]>> It's it's beneficial for now, right?

[00:11:06]Oh, you think? Oh, so no, but Oh, sorry.

[00:11:08]So, yeah, maybe maybe my personal being would be would have more sense of a hope or whatever. But I guess I meant like the world like >> you like >> are we are Shen and I doing harm in in your view I guess to the world?

[00:11:25]Are you doing harm to the world? Um, >> I I don't I don't think that every unbeliever is doing harm to the world.

[00:11:35]>> Um, >> okay.

[00:11:37]>> No, >> I don't know. Wait, wait. He didn't answer. Sorry, I have to jump.

[00:11:41]>> He didn't say he didn't answer about me or you.

[00:11:43]>> This is the thing that was frustrating me is Wes earlier attacked Wait, Wes.

[00:11:46]Wait, Wes, wait. Wes, you were earlier you attacked Matt for and I pointed out in chat that Matt hung up on you because you were being a pedantic ass. And right now you're kind of being a pedantic ass because you were just asked whether they are doing damage and you answered you don't believe all unbelievers are. And I'm desperate to hear the actual answer to their question. Are Paul and Shannon doing damage?

[00:12:09]>> Yeah. No, I appreciate that. The the um the reason I said that is because I don't I just don't know them. It's it's like a personal thing. I believe that it's a individuals are, you know, can do damage or not do damage. Do you think we're more likely than a Christian to do damage because of who? Because of being atheists.

[00:12:29]>> I'm sorry for cutting you off there. I think that um I think that what y'all are putting into the world with um tearing down a lot of uh fundamentalism and that kind of garbage uh could be a net positive more than a lot of fundamentalists that I've seen. Let me put it that So, did you did you want to call just to see if we were cool with progressive Christianity? Is that kind of what you wanted to see?

[00:13:00]Just >> I just didn't know if you had any any any problems with any any core issues with it.

[00:13:09]>> Everybody who calls themselves a progress progressive Christian is going to mean something different, right? So, >> it's difficult for me to say. I do like that there's a deconstruction movement in progressive Christianity where they're recognizing that there's, you know, trauma and abuse and oppressive systems that exist as a part of the structure of the church and the religion itself and that that is worth undoing. I care less about what label people land on than whether or not they're okay and whether or not they're doing damage.

[00:13:52]So, I don't I guess my answer would be the same for anybody who holds any religious label, which is so long as you're not harming yourself, others, or society, I do not care. You do you. I'll defend your right to believe whatever you want. Go nuts. But I'm not going to stop explaining why I don't believe nor should I have to but some people perceive that as a threat right just believing something in opposition is perceived as a threat.

[00:14:24]>> Could I ask Wes a question for the purpose of actually driving your conversation with Wes in a certain way that I'm like I'm chopping at them.

[00:14:33]>> Okay.

[00:14:33]>> I'm champing at the bit for right now.

[00:14:36]Wes, real quick, I guess two quick questions. First, uh, do you do you know the name of the show you're calling in on right now?

[00:14:45]>> Um, the skeptic talk. Is that right?

[00:14:47]>> It's called Skept Talk. So, with that name, do you sort of understand what the theme of this show is?

[00:14:53]>> Um, that you're skeptical towards Christianity.

[00:14:56]>> No, we're skeptics. Okay. Just period.

[00:14:59]We're skeptics. And so what we do on this show is we specifically take skeptics who have some sort of uh demonstrated expertise in different fields and de and people who are we can have like a higher level of of conversation with uh as opposed to like when it's just me some idiot on the internet who has seen my way out of religion and and just having conversation at at at you know we could even call it that lower level is is how I'll call it when it's me on. Uh, so Wes, the the the direction I guess I want to see that that you all bring it in instead of this weird like I'm calling into a show about skepticism to ask if uh the hosts are down with progressive Christianity, you're calling in with a a a proposition or you're calling in with a at least a position and this is a show about skepticism. So your position of progressive Christianity, regardless of whether or not it feels like as high a priority or not, as fundamentalist Christianity, in what way do you believe it should pass or would pass a sufficiently skeptical person's, let's just say, smell test? And that's the thing that I would really love to see you discuss with the host instead of this weird I I'm not going to describe it because I'm going to end up sounding sarcastic and mean. So just if if that's okay with the host, that's the direction I would love to hear this go.

[00:16:17]>> I just I'll I want to interject one thing before we we do that. And that is that unlike Shannon, I actually do think and it relates to your thing, Jimmy, is that I think that anyone your the epistemology that you put forth that you think that Jesus rose from the dead, for example, if you came to that conclusion through whatever process you came to, I do think that's problematic. I think the kind of thinking that leads you to think that Jesus rose from the dead is a problem that bleeds out to society more broadly, which is why I use the small a anti-theist label for myself. I do think that just epistemologically progressive Christians are still a problem. I I I'm happy that that they're doing fewer direct things, >> but I am still against it because I think that you come to >> that coming to to wrong conclusions is just a a bad thing. So, feeding into what what Jimmy just asked, like how did you how did you get there, my friend, and how do it seems like you don't even care if we get there, which is why as I asked those initial questions, but how would you get us there if you wanted to?

[00:17:29]Well, I think I think that faith is just on the other on the other side of the line of skepticis skepticism. I think it's you're looking at this you're looking at the same uh uh you know set of facts and you are saying uh I I I don't buy it or you're saying I do buy it and so >> so faith you know >> can you define faith for me?

[00:17:54]Yeah, faith is when you um you can well there's I mean Christian faith is looking at all kinds of uh facts or all kinds of historical information or stories that have been passed down and saying I believe it or I don't believe it. It's putting your trust in it. It's saying I I'm going to go ahead and >> so >> buy that story.

[00:18:18]>> You're saying different things. So is Christian faith is Christian faith the gap between the level level of evidence we have and the level of evidence you need to accept something is that Christian faith >> um I don't think I've ever heard it put across that way so I'd have to think about >> you're describing you're describing blind you're describing blind faith right like that seems to me what you're describing so I just wanted to put it in a way that was less offensive than blind faith Perhaps.

[00:18:50]>> No, that's that's fine. I I think >> so. Or do you mean because other Christians hate it when we say that?

[00:18:57]>> Other Christians hate it when we say that and say, "No, faith is just the same kind of faith is just trust in a thing like just you you sat in your chair >> because you trust."

[00:19:06]>> Yeah.

[00:19:07]>> Piss. Well, even that even Christians debate about whether that means So, but it seems to me you're using faith to mean you're using faith to mean the gap between where the evidence lands and how much evidence we need >> and that and and you're you're putting that forth as a virtue that you have that I don't have.

[00:19:28]>> Is that correct?

[00:19:29]>> You're saying there's insufficient evidence, but I believe it anyway.

[00:19:33]>> Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's more like a probabilistic kind of a thing. Um, like where I I feel like there's enough evidence for me to take the leap and to say that I I can buy that. I can believe that. Um, it's a it's it's something that's happening in the future. It's something that we're not sure of. There's a hope and, you know, I want to uh, you know, I I would like for it to be right. I want it to be right. And I I feel like there's enough evidence there uh throughout history to uh to say, "Yeah, I I can I can buy that. I can I can take that that step."

[00:20:09]In the gospels, Jesus Christ said, you know, blessed are those that have not seen and yet believe. So, yeah, I think I don't think it I think there is blind faith there. So, anybody who says, well, you guys are just like, you know, you're just ignoring all the evidence >> and you're putting this forth >> you're putting that forth as a virtue.

[00:20:29]Um I I I I'm putting it forth as a Yeah. Yeah. I think hope is a virtue. I think faith is I think that >> is there any positive idea in the world that I couldn't come to with your type of faith? Is there any positive idea that would be outside of your realm of acceptance?

[00:20:58]Um yeah, I mean things that are just too improbable. I mean I think that there's diluted hope. I think that uh I think that if you had I mean you >> So I understand for you but if if I'm using your methodology I understand for you there'll be there'll be a different range. There's it's a finite range. But if I'm going to just espouse that ideas that I want to be true like that's what you just told me. you the you you think it's true because you want it to be true and we can't know. Is there any idea that I couldn't come to accept if that's the epistemology that I'm using?

[00:21:37]>> Um I think that there are ideas that you would be um uh foolish to hope for and I think that there are ideas that you are reasonable.

[00:21:50]you have a reasonable uh uh you have a you have a good reason to hope for I mean if you have a if you have I'm gonna if you are hoping >> if I have good reason I don't need the faith thing right >> well no not at all I mean you you absolutely have to have reasons to have faith you have you I mean if you're gonna if the last place team in the NFL if you if you have faith that they're going to win the Super Bowl then that's crazy and if you if the first place team in the NFL. You have faith that they're going to win the Super Bowl. That's reasonable, but you have no idea.

[00:22:25]>> That's about future projections. So, no, I just want to quick differentiation.

[00:22:29]You're talking about future projections, right? So, you're saying that you have faith in something that's already happened. Faith that it did happen because there's maybe not enough evidence. Because if you had enough evidence to be utterly convinced, you wouldn't need faith cuz you'd be sure.

[00:22:53]>> Yeah, I think so. I think that's that's uh that's probably true. I think >> so. You say you're not sure then, >> right? Like you're not sure.

[00:23:02]>> I have enough >> I have enough faith to go ahead and accept it.

[00:23:08]>> Um you're not sure, >> man. I mean, I'm uh I I don't I don't I think any Christian that says they're short is kind of lying to themselves.

[00:23:20]>> That's honest.

[00:23:21]>> That's honest.

[00:23:22]>> I I don't I don't think >> So, what do you think the difference is between like you and Paul and I?

[00:23:30]>> Like, why do you think it's true and we don't?

[00:23:33]>> Man, I I don't know. So, so I I don't know enough about you particularly to say to say what the difference is between me and you. I would say that um some of the people that I've seen um that would maybe as a standin for you know for for y'all it's atheists. I've seen people that have been um so hurt by Christians that it >> X1 wrong not for me. Nope. That's Nope.

[00:23:59]Not it.

[00:24:00]>> Okay.

[00:24:01]>> That's not it.

[00:24:01]>> Okay.

[00:24:03]>> Try again.

[00:24:04]>> Well, I mean >> round two.

[00:24:05]>> Yeah. Well, so okay. Um I I think that there is uh there is a gosh I it's it's hard to speak. It's hard to speak. Why don't you tell me what what is it that you think is different about between these?

[00:24:29]>> I think well maybe Paula thinks something different. What I think is that we realized it wasn't true and decided it's better not to believe things that we not only can't prove true, but are fairly certain are false.

[00:24:49]And you maybe got to the point where you're like, I can't 100% prove it's true, but I like it, so I'm gonna keep it.

[00:25:01]Yeah. Yeah. So I I don't think that you're being >> Okay. So if you want something a little more fireworks on this call, I don't think you're being intellectually honest if you say we have come to the conclusion that it definitely is not true.

[00:25:13]>> Um I think that you could say side.

[00:25:17]>> No, I'm I'm atheist with a capital A. I don't even think that there's a coherent concept of God that I've been presented.

[00:25:23]Paul's slightly different, but we definitely both are on the same page that Christianity is demonstrabably false.

[00:25:32]>> Okay. Well, maybe I'll call Maybe I'll call back. I've already taken a lot of time. Maybe I'll talk call back and talk about that a little more concrete. I don't mean to waste your time or anything. And >> yeah, no interesting conversation.

[00:25:45]>> Just remember, one of us is sure about what we believe.

[00:25:50]>> Okay. So, do you feel like that's reasonable to be do you feel like it's reasonable to be 100% sure that Jesus Christ, you know, was was wrong?

[00:26:00]>> Magic himself out of the dead because he was also his father. Yeah, I'm pretty 100% sure about that.

[00:26:07]>> 100% sure. Okay.

[00:26:09]>> Yep.

[00:26:09]>> I think it's I think it's unreasonable for you to think that you know a single word that Jesus said.

[00:26:16]>> Okay.

[00:26:19]Call us back again. Call us back again.

[00:26:21]To me, continue. Next time Paul and I are on, Wes, I expect to see you in the queue.

[00:26:26]>> Thanks very much, guys. Appreciate it.

[00:26:28]Have a good night.

[00:26:29]>> Have a good day.

[00:26:29]>> Thanks.

[00:26:30]>> Bye.

[00:26:30]>> Bye.

[00:26:33]>> Wow, that was interesting.

[00:26:35]Fireworks. I'm not I'm not intellectually, >> man. Like sometimes I wonder if Christians realize that how hard all of us tried to keep being Christian, too.

[00:26:47]Like, >> right.

[00:26:48]>> Do you think they get it?

[00:26:50]>> Like, >> no. They don't. They think they think that we were they think that we're like desperately looking out the window at all the other atheists having fun and they're like, "How can we escape? How can we get out of this situation we're in so we can go where the party is?"

[00:27:06]Like, that's not >> That's right. And mom was just making us read the Bible and we were like, "All the atheist kids are having ice cream.

[00:27:16]Why can't I go inside?

[00:27:18]>> And that's how Christianity hurt us. And that's why we're atheists.

[00:27:21]>> I thought it was great when Shannon asked why he thinks he's different. What he thinks is different. Like why you believe no and he believes yes. And the way the direction I was really hoping it was going to get that I think it will have to next time if if Wes does call back in. I don't want to just know why he thinks he's different than you cuz at least like you have two diametrically opposing positions. I also want to know why he thinks he's different than a Mormon. Why is his >> Yeah, that was actually Yeah, that was a question I had if we were going to keep talking was >> you'll call that >> because he did say he did say that Jesus was exclusive in that way.

[00:27:59]>> He did.

[00:27:59]>> Which which actually some >> which some progressive Christians are universalists. And so then there's just like well we just take whatever you think and it's just come on down. Well, and that's funny, too, because that's also uh I learned a phrase last month or the month before from Luxander, who came on the Transat Colin show, and I've been using it like crazy ever since. Uh, and they they had found it from other places, and so I'll give Luxander credit for introducing it to me at the very least. But he was doing this thing where it was basically like because that's that's the exclusive claim that I'm aware of. In other words, like there's also just all the claims he doesn't know that are also exclusive. Valhalla is a pretty exclusive club to get into. You have to die specific ways to get there.

[00:28:43]>> Um, and so he's impressed by the exclusivity of his claim because he doesn't know other claims, which the phrase that Lexander used was he is weaponizing his ignorance. And I love that phrase so [ __ ] much. And it's it is used so well whenever people also I've been using it when people are like when they're losing a debate. So they go, "Okay, well cite to me the paper right now or whatever whatever all the stuff that I haven't seen because I haven't bothered spending time on Google." And I'll literally say like or you can do the homework you're trying to give me to do. You can do the homework I've done. you can go explore instead of this [ __ ] way that you're trying to do this shitty thing where if I can't paraphrase to your sufficient uh uh satisfaction, you're just going to dismiss it all. Uh so how about you go do the work because you haven't googled so far and stop weaponizing your ignorance. I I just love that phrase.

[00:29:37]Anyway, >> also I loved how you give me credit for being not just a YouTuber who has random thing. I love how you you just Shannon has definite expertise and you kind I kind of on her coattails here with that.

[00:29:49]But I appreciate you Jimmy insinuating there that I >> am something more than just a rando.

[00:29:54]>> I assume you haven't seen then the YouTube community post on my personal YouTube page promoting tonight's episode where I also refer to you as perhaps the best counter apologist I've ever met.

[00:30:05]>> Wow.

[00:30:05]>> So just that you know >> Wow. Now I'm gonna have to walk around the house with that head for the rest of the night. Thanks Jamie. That's great.

[00:30:12]Fantastic. You're welcome.

[00:30:14]>> Great.

[00:30:15]>> Confidence is sex >> every time. Always hitting on my boyfriend. Always >> always hitting on my boyfriend.