Survivor Interview: Marcus Hutching

[00:00:08]Hi everyone. Welcome to the show handing the shame back. This is dedicated to survivors of child sexual abuse and we know the numbers are huge. It's not often talked about, but this is one place where it is and it's my honor to bring this to you.

[00:00:26]I'm Glory Masters, I'm your host. I'm also a survivor, which is why I can confidently lead this channel.

[00:00:34]I'm delighted to say we have an incredible guest with us today.

[00:00:38]And just before I introduce him to you, oops, I gave it away. It is a him. I'd like to put forward a trigger warning.

[00:00:47]And the reason I do that is by its very nature this show goes into child sexual abuse. And that means people are recounting their stories. Now, if for whatever reason you end up feeling triggered or traumatized, I want you to stop watching, please. Go to the show notes below and you'll be directed to some resource and support. In the meantime, I'd like to introduce you to Marcus. He's all the way from Cambridge within the North Island of New Zealand.

[00:01:17]He's an incredible survivor and looking forward to hearing his story. Welcome to the show, Marcus.

[00:01:25]>> Thank you.

[00:01:27]>> It's great to have you here and we generally tend to have a conversation about what you've experienced and whatever it is you're comfortable to share. So, I would like to maybe just start with as little or as much as you're prepared to tell us about today.

[00:01:49]>> Um so, I was brought up on a farm and my I was adopted uh at 3 years old and my parents um were foster parents.

[00:02:03]And that in itself isn't isn't the where it comes into it though is unfortunately back then um it says it was known.

[00:02:18]Uh the social workers were very good at not telling the whole truth about the kids they were placing. And so mom and dad um had extreme behavioral problems in kids.

[00:02:35]And they had five children of their own plus they'd have up to four foster children.

[00:02:41]So um my abuse started when I was seven.

[00:02:45]Um so I had seven perpetrators.

[00:02:48]Um I had four males and three females.

[00:02:54]Um my first one was a girl that they had taken in. She was 16 and I was seven.

[00:03:02]And that was my first experience.

[00:03:07]And it left me feeling oh my goodness is this is this normal? I was I was kind of shocked.

[00:03:17]Um and luckily she didn't stay in the house long.

[00:03:24]But it still left me I can I can remember everything. And it was [clears throat] it was it was a shock for a seven-year-old boy to experience that.

[00:03:35]And so I knew from a young age that my environment wasn't safe.

[00:03:45]So then again um we had more foster kids come in and at nine I was uh um again abused by sexually abused by a boy that came into the home um and he didn't stay long either but what it what it also presented or one of my um experiences was I would wet the bed quite quite regularly and um up to 12 and mom and dad couldn't figure it out. Um this boy was actually expelled um because someone else in the house which I won't go into details cuz it's not my story to tell.

[00:04:33]Um actually said that this boy had touched them and so dad had removed him um physically and taken him to saps.

[00:04:47]>> But I just want to ask you and >> Thank you. You're doing a great job Marcus.

[00:04:52]>> Uh just for context how old would that boy have been when you were nine and he >> Um so all all all these were teenagers which were hard to place.

[00:05:04]And a lot of them were sexual offenders in the homes they were in.

[00:05:09]But the social the social workers didn't want to say that because no one would take them and and that's what the social worker would say um to mom and dad you know we can't tell you because if we told you that they had a sexual tendency no one would have them especially people with children. So they tended to care more about placing the children rather than the environment um and keeping other kids safe.

[00:05:36]>> Wow.

[00:05:37]>> So I then um then there was uh another one which came in in I think I was 11 or 12 or 11 and she was she was psychologically very unstable. She She actually probably shouldn't have been around other children.

[00:06:02]And what I remember is I was so Mom and Dad had a split level house.

[00:06:09]And I was in the room downstairs and Mom's sewing cabinet was just to the left at right outside our room.

[00:06:18]And I would come out and she would be sitting there and again she was about 16 and the reason she had been placed with Mom and Dad was she had threatened or tried to kill her neighbor.

[00:06:34]And so she was very disturbed and she would grab me.

[00:06:40]Um in the privates and she would she would threaten me and she would tell me her story and why she wanted to kill.

[00:06:52]So she did this over a three-night period and so I would I was too scared to go to the toilet.

[00:06:59]Because I knew she was sitting out there. She would sit there at night. She was just for the what the better word really unstable. So again it was an older much older person.

[00:07:12]>> Yeah.

[00:07:14]>> Um Mom and Dad also were involved heavily in the church and the youth group and they would help families and again these families had extreme so that the the next experience unfortunately I had was this 17-year-old boy that was the church tried to um he him in house. He hadn't fit with his siblings.

[00:07:48]So, of course, they thought that it was a good idea to place him with mom and dad.

[00:07:55]In with me and my brother.

[00:07:58]So, you know what's going to happen. And so, he he, um, actually did a lot of abuse cuz we went to the same high school. So, he would do it in the boys toilets when I was at high school. And I was 10 years old.

[00:08:20]>> So, I would have been first year high school. So, I would have been 13.

[00:08:24]>> Yeah.

[00:08:26]>> 12, 13. Um, and so, I was terrified of him.

[00:08:31]>> Yeah.

[00:08:31]>> Um, but again, I didn't feel like I could say anything cuz society back then, it was drummed into us. I don't know where I got, but because I'm a male, boys couldn't be sexually abused. And certainly couldn't be sexually abused by females.

[00:08:50]>> No.

[00:08:51]>> Um, so, it was society back then. They didn't believe that Yeah.

[00:08:57]And then came my two worst predators, um, which were um, they were So, I was 14.

[00:09:07]He was 27 going to He went So, the police investigation, he went to six different youth groups at the time around the Waikato.

[00:09:18]And I was one of many victims, unfortunately.

[00:09:22]But he would he groomed me to start with. You know, he'd come in my car. It's a fast car.

[00:09:30]It's, you know, and he would take me to shops. He'd buy me things. He would And then, um, him and his girlfriend would, uh So, his girlfriend would butter me up, and then she would leave me alone with him. And a lot of the abuse happened in the car. So, he would, um [snorts] put put his hand where he shouldn't, um in my privates. And then he would start to threaten me, and he'd say, "If you say anything, I will kill your family." The thing is, I knew this guy had belted up his girlfriend. So, I knew that he was So, he went from nice guy to really, you know, controlling. And he was picking me up probably three times a week. So, um I don't know how long it was. It was months, but in the end, I used to hide behind the couch, and I remember my oldest sister saying, "Lance is here."

[00:10:43]Which was the perpetrator.

[00:10:46]And I'd go tell him I'm not here. I don't I don't I don't want to see him. So, I would hide because I didn't want to get in that car. Um In In the end, he just disappeared. Um I'm not quite sure where he where he went. But, his his brother-in-law, so the his girlfriend's sister, um her boyfriend used to babysit me. That was the other one. And they used to would have sex in front of me.

[00:11:24]Um that was about age 12. I um And then, she would go into the kitchen, and he would come and he was more of a let me show you how to be a man. Let me show how you how to work your penis and he would and he would do that regularly.

[00:11:47]I actually told mom and dad that they were having sex in front of me. When they went to the police it all stopped and they I stopped seeing them.

[00:12:00]So, that's how that abuse stopped. Um and then at 16 I was drugged and raped. Now, you're thinking how does a male and it was by a female.

[00:12:14]She was out for revenge and I remember it was the date rape drug and I remember not being able to move.

[00:12:23]And I just remember saying no, no, no.

[00:12:27]Uh there was another flatmate who heard me do all that.

[00:12:31]And so, afterwards she I was cleaning the sheets and she took me to the police station.

[00:12:42]Again I'm a male. This was a female.

[00:12:47]It's It's the law back then didn't believe you or sorry, I felt like they didn't believe you.

[00:12:55]>> Yeah.

[00:12:56]>> And um all this stuff was happening to me and so and what was worse was I didn't know but my dad had been having intimate relationships with the rapist's mother.

[00:13:14]And so and I didn't realize but they had enough evidence to take it to court.

[00:13:21]But the mother wanted my dad to drop the cha- get me to drop the charges. So, he took me for a drive and he said the police said this would be laughed out of court.

[00:13:34]And so, Marcus, you need to drop the charges. So, he convinced me to drop the charges.

[00:13:40]>> So, he wasn't honest with you?

[00:13:43]>> No.

[00:13:44]>> So, can I just stop you just to clarify the context and gosh, I'm Yeah. Um saddened all of this just went on for so long and there were so many different people involved.

[00:14:00]When you were 16, were you was this did this rape happen in your home?

[00:14:06]>> It was in my flat. So, I'd only been in the flat 3 weeks.

[00:14:10]>> Okay, how old would the uh rapist have been?

[00:14:14]>> So, she would have been 19. I was I was 16 going to turn 17.

[00:14:22]>> Right.

[00:14:23]And um obviously, having your father being complicit in this through him having um an affair, I imagine he was still with your mother at the time with this woman's mother, uh meant he had a a conflict of interest is the kindest thing I can say about protecting you and making sure justice was done. What was the impact on you because of course at that point you would not have realized that.

[00:14:59]>> So, it's interesting, Gloria, because the impact on me, I didn't realize. Um but I was ashamed. I was ashamed of everything.

[00:15:08]The other thing I found out at 16, which is relevant to what we what you just asked me, was I was a product of rape. So, my birth mother and me had the same sperm donor.

[00:15:23]And he had died. So, I found out all this information at 16 as well.

[00:15:30]So, that that also backed up the fact that I must be a mistake. I came from evil.

[00:15:38]Um so, when I kept being abused and then the rape happened, I was like, I must deserve this. It must be my fault.

[00:15:47]Because that's what my brain and my belief systems were telling me. And so, I just curled up and didn't want to tell anyone cuz I was ashamed cuz I'm a male.

[00:16:01]How can a male be abused? Because, you know, it's only females. And definitely, how could you be abused by a female?

[00:16:09]That's just not And I I thought I was alone. I I really thought I was alone.

[00:16:16]So, I then went through I got I was so desperate to get out of Mom and Dad's, out of the chaos, which I thought was normal normal, Gloria. Got to remember, I just thought all families went through this. We saw stuff like we saw people overdosing, sniffing glue, sniffing petrol, drugs, all in the house. Ouija boards, all that kind of thing. And we thought that was all normal. It wasn't until we started getting married to partners that we realized or me and my siblings realized, actually, that wasn't normal. However, Gloria, I still believed that I was a mistake, so I deserved it.

[00:17:04]>> Okay, I'm going to stop you.

[00:17:05]>> Yeah.

[00:17:06]>> You're bringing up some incredible uh points for discussion and some very useful material for our audience. So, I want to thank you, and I'm just sad that it has to be off the back of your story.

[00:17:20]Unfortunately, though, with with a lived experience like yours, we can actually discuss this and and maybe help other survivors. So, again, I thank you for that. What I want to look at, Marcus, and and there's so many things, but I guess the key one for me, and you've referred to it a few times, is that males, you know, the belief was males can't be abused sexually, they can't be raped.

[00:17:50]Um male on male is is also seen as or or stigmatized as in what are you, gay? Or why didn't you push back?

[00:18:02]Then you move forward to the female on male, where the female is the perpetrator.

[00:18:07]And what you experience, unfortunately, is partly true today.

[00:18:13]And that is that's not possible. How lucky are you? You must have wanted it.

[00:18:19]Um you know, all of the above toxic rubbish or narrative that's pushed out there.

[00:18:26]So, Marcus, it's a double whammy for you.

[00:18:30]And and to have gone to the police station and talked about it and felt uh I don't know, minimized, diminished, um misunderstood, or that there's something wrong with you, the shame, as you say, was was so great.

[00:18:46]It's really abhorrent, and it's unacceptable. And we need to make sure these conversations are being heard because the reality is you were a child who didn't have one perpetrator, you had seven spanning over 10 years, I would suggest. And that is what we call conditioned. It's conditioning, and there's no way would ever come out of that feeling somehow not complicit or not shamed because perpetrators know what they're doing and they know that if they get a child as young as seven uh it the shame belongs they make sure the shame belongs to the child because as children we do what we're told uh because we're told to do what we're told and when someone's older they're usually left in charge and in some cases that may have been your experience. So shout out to the incredible male survivors watching who have experienced abuse at the hands of a woman. You are just as entitled to be here. You are just as entitled to be considered a victim of this crime. It is unacceptable and it's yeah, it's very very shaming for the perpetrators. Uh what do you think of that?

[00:20:14]>> Oh, thank thank you. Thank you and I I appreciate um that because it's it's valid.

[00:20:22]And so I went on into a an abusive marriage again thinking that I'm a male.

[00:20:31]It's I deserve this.

[00:20:34]So um I ended up being stabbed with a knife by my ex-wife.

[00:20:40]And it wasn't till a nurse, a mental health nurse said to me, "This was the third time I'd had it committed."

[00:20:47]She said to me, "Mr. Hutching why are you putting up with this? Why aren't you having her charged?" And I said, "Oh, because she's got a mental illness and I'm a male."

[00:20:59]And the the nurse looked at me uh weirdly and said "That's unacceptable whether whether you're male or or female. Um what she's doing is abuse. Just because she has a mental illness doesn't make it right. And that was the first time Gloria that anyone had challenged my narrative.

[00:21:26]And it took me probably another 2 years before I actually left. But I still felt still felt like it was my fault.

[00:21:36]Um and so I went through life letting people walk over me. Um I had troubles.

[00:21:44]I was a dysfunctional function. So I went to work. I paid my bills. Um but I I got into a little bit of drugs, but it didn't really do anything for me.

[00:21:58]Um so I got a bit into drinking, but I started I had um so I did a bit of cutting when I was a child.

[00:22:08]And so that was my self-harm. So I would internalize it and rather than hurting anyone else because I deserved it. So in my head cutting was relieving the the pain that I was feeling inside because I felt like I couldn't tell anyone.

[00:22:30]And so that was So anyway, I carried on and then I had a car accident and I was in a wheelchair for 4 and 1/2 years.

[00:22:41]Um I managed to get myself back to work.

[00:22:47]And then 3 4 years ago a family member of ours unfortunately, um a male in the family had been abused or the next generation and we were having a family conference about it.

[00:23:08]And my siblings realized by my reaction that maybe I had.

[00:23:18]So anyway, two of my siblings encouraged me to go to the police.

[00:23:22]So after 6 months, I went to my pastor and after having a few sessions with him, he also realized. So he came to the police interviews.

[00:23:33]They were horrific. I'm I'm not going to lie. It the the details you have to give were um yeah.

[00:23:43]But the outcome was even more horrific because so there were two outcomes I was so either I was going to have enough evidence, right? And it would go to court and I just assumed that everything that went to court there was conviction. That's actually not the case in New Zealand.

[00:24:03]The stats are actually you know, 10% get reported, 4% end up in court and only 1% ends up um conviction. So but the third outcome, which we had no idea about and this threw me, was in the time period that I was sexually abused, there was a statute of limitations and if it was skin-on-skin, it had to be reported within a year.

[00:24:38]Otherwise, you couldn't charge. So basically, they had all this evidence. They could have taken it to court, but because of that statute of limitations and that Gloria, that broke me and I started self-harming again as an adult, which I had only done one one other time, which was in my marriage. That was devastating.

[00:25:01]And then I found male support services in the Waikato.

[00:25:08]And Alan and Tony and I started I joined a group. Um and they have they've been a lifesaver as in I'm not alone.

[00:25:21]Um I am loved. Um it's still really hard for me to care for myself. That's something I have to actively do. I actually have to do. Yeah.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. And look, I so appreciate you saying that because you aren't alone. And what you learned through your childhood and adolescence was that the people closest to you were the ones you could never trust. So, as children do, we begin life with this magical thinking, which leads into us feeling it must be my fault because we feel that we can control the world. If anything bad happens, it's cuz of something we asked for or we did.

[00:26:09]I So, I understand the the self blame and the self-shame.

[00:26:16]But I also want to put in there the the shame can never belong to a child because a child does not have the awareness or understanding of what is going on.

[00:26:28]And I think too that you've raised a point about actually self-care being a challenge.

[00:26:37]Unfortunately, Marcus, that doesn't surprise me, either. Because you had uh the the care wasn't there in terms of being safe in your own home.

[00:26:50]It's highly unlikely that that would lead to you looking after yourself because that wasn't available to you as a youngster. So, I think one thing can lead on to the next, but we know that with self-love underpinning all of that has to be self-compassion, self-acceptance, self-worth, and everything you describe as in the self-harming, as in the attempting with the drugs, uh the alcohol, getting into a relationship where you were being physically abused to the point where you were being stabbed, all suggest that it was impossible for you to have a measure of safety.

[00:27:40]And I think that in turn means it's very hard in that case for you to feel you can look after yourself.

[00:27:52]>> I am And And then I've trained to be a facilitator. So, I'm now helping facilitate a group in Hamilton. My goal is to open a group in Cambridge and help other survivors.

[00:28:09]Um We We were discussing in our group this last week about next year making sure we have um one of your walks in Hamilton.

[00:28:22]Um we We would really like to do that. I didn't have the capacity to do it this year, but um it's it's funny because I still get overwhelmed.

[00:28:35]So, and I feel I have to remind myself.

[00:28:40]And it's a bit like a car, a brand new car coming off the lot, and it's crashed into. Then it goes to a panel basis and it is fixed, but someone that knows what a car is will know that that car was in an accident. So, there's a residue that's still with a survivor.

[00:29:02]And me personally, I don't believe you truly recover. What I believe is you learn to live with your triggers. You learn to live with them in a healthy way. You learn to manage your emotions, because it's okay to have emotions. That's one thing I've learned. So, it's okay for me to feel all that. It's what I do with that feeling and how I respond to it.

[00:29:29]And making sure, and this is a very foreign concept to a lot of other survivors, is making sure I look after myself. So, I'm I'm busy looking after everyone else, making sure they're okay, but quite often we forget ourselves.

[00:29:50]You know, and I think that's an important lesson that I've learned. And something else I've learned and I've encouraged is anyone thinking of going to the police, I wouldn't That is completely up to the survivor. It's got to be their choice. What I would say, being through it, is do a bit of homework. Make sure you have two or three safe friends.

[00:30:19]Um make sure you know what the outcome possibly is in therapy. You need to be in therapy so you can help be guided through the process, cuz it is not an easy process. The law is not designed for victims, unfortunately. And I think we've got a long way to go in New Zealand.

[00:30:45]Um before society even accepts it. I feel I think that society, um you know, you go back to the '70s, '80s, and '90s, people knew that women were getting beaten up. There was family violence, but everyone was not accepting of it, but they turned away.

[00:31:07]And I feel like it's the same as child sexual abuse.

[00:31:11]Everyone's shocked that sex trafficking's happening in New Zealand.

[00:31:15]They're like, "No, couldn't be."

[00:31:18]But actually, yes, it is.

[00:31:22]So, I've also lodged a um with Oranga Tamariki about my abuse in care. But because I was the foster parents' child legally, they might not be responsible, even though they lied about the who was coming into the house.

[00:31:46]>> Yeah.

[00:31:47]>> And I want to fight that. I absolutely want to fight that because I think that's wrong. I think they were responsible. They did not give all the information. They did not keep the children that were in that house safe.

[00:32:01]>> And I completely understand I completely understand what you're saying.

[00:32:07]And I think, you know, survivors are like what you said, it is a survivor's choice about whether or not to proceed to criminal um action with individual cases. I we can't guarantee anything positive or an outcome they desire will occur.

[00:32:28]It is a choice, but I think when people out there watching who are trying to support survivors, the worst thing you can do is tell a survivor what to do.

[00:32:39]And the reason for that is simple.

[00:32:42]We didn't have a choice as children and Marcus, you and I were talking about this off air.

[00:32:47]We didn't have a choice as children.

[00:32:49]So, don't start telling survivors what to do. Let survivors choose for themselves. Give them the choice. It's really important to regain some autonomy or some control over the situation.

[00:33:03]You know, the fact that you're doing the advocacy work that you're doing, Marcus, the fact that you're trying to help others by telling your story is remarkable. And often it's people like you I consider to be our unsung heroes.

[00:33:18]We look at every year we have a Kiwi of the Year or we have a an honors list and people are knighted.

[00:33:29]Frankly, this is the pool they should be looking at. Not necessarily someone who is paid to do a job and does it well, but someone like yourself who has gone through extraordinary circumstances and come out the other end to try and help others.

[00:33:48]So, Marcus, moving on, we've got about 10 minutes left. So, I I'd like to move on to what helped you in your recovery from this trauma.

[00:34:04]>> Um what has helped me?

[00:34:06]>> Yes.

[00:34:08]>> Um the fact that so being with the men's support group, knowing that I'm not alone. So, I also have a top clearance level. So, I have two other friends. They're females and they're survivors.

[00:34:26]And we we talk real.

[00:34:30]And um, one thing I have learned on this journey is not everyone's in your corner. Not everyone understands. And not everyone's safe person.

[00:34:41]Um, and so you need to find for me, um, what's helped is me finding people that A believe me, B can empathize with me and understand. And that seems to be within our community, um, of survivors.

[00:35:00]And it's really good to talk through.

[00:35:03]Um, so at our men's group on on a Thursday at um, male support services, Waikato, we So, this week we talked through emotions, what different emotions meant to us as survivors, and why we felt like that, and where did it come from. And it was just good to talk through, "Hey, you feel like that. Oh, I feel like that when that happens." And and just to know that you're not alone.

[00:35:33]And I think the other thing is accepting that the past happened. Actually accepting it and going, "So, it does de- So, this is another thing." So, the word define used to really grind me.

[00:35:52]Because I believe that it does define who I am.

[00:35:57]It's made me compassionate. It's made me caring.

[00:36:02]But it doesn't control me.

[00:36:04]That's the difference. So, it may have shaped me, but it doesn't control me. I I choose as a survivor to control how much it impacts me on a day-to-day basis. That's my choice.

[00:36:24]>> And I like that, and I just want to gently suggest that for new survivors who are struggling, it can feel a little like it is controlling us. And the reason I say that is because when you're brand new to this and think back to you when you first started to deal with this, you have no choice but to go with those memories, those feelings that are left in the body, the triggers that happen, the conversations that are had that are nowhere near supportive and can feel quite wounding.

[00:37:03]For instance, things like, "But you can't possibly be raped by a woman."

[00:37:09]So, I think in some regards, Marcus, when we're looking at survivors who are new to this, it can feel like they're being controlled. What advice would you have for them?

[00:37:25]>> So, advice for who, sorry?

[00:37:27]>> For new survivors who are being controlled by this, who are feeling they're just at the mercy of these terrible memories and triggers and conversations about their trauma.

[00:37:41]>> I think advice that I would give is it's okay to feel like that.

[00:37:50]And it's it's your choice how you respond.

[00:37:54]And I think the biggest thing for me that I've learned is trying to love myself in that space.

[00:38:01]>> Yeah.

[00:38:02]>> So, when I'm when I'm having a bad day, cuz we're all going to have bad days, that doesn't go away. It's about So, I recognize it. I recognize my trigger and then I intervene before it gets to the point of no what I call no return where I lose control.

[00:38:24]And so I go and do something that I like. So I might watch a comedy. I might go if I'm able go fishing cuz I love fishing. That's my calm spot. Water's my calm spot. I might go for a walk.

[00:38:38]Um I might go So it's not about ignoring it. It's about your It's okay to feel it. It's okay to have those emotions.

[00:38:48]It's okay to be triggered.

[00:38:50]It's how you respond. And so for me, what's helpful for me is to find something that I can intervene and go yes, I've been triggered. Recognize it.

[00:39:02]Stop. Pause. Take a breath and go how can I turn this into a positive or help me to move forward from this feeling. Today. Today. So not forever cuz you're going to have that again possibly. I think you're probably going to be triggered. So So my car accident for instance, I was coming home from Manamena. It was foggy. I had my accident over in Manamena in fog.

[00:39:37]I felt anxious. It was 20 years ago.

[00:39:41]>> [snorts] >> It wasn't a big reaction, but it was a trigger.

[00:39:45]And I thought oh, I know what this is from. So recognizing your trigger, recognizing what it's from, and I breathe through it. I I breathed through it. Now, I hadn't had a response like that for years.

[00:40:00]So I just think that being prepared in what you can do a choice you can make to curve yourself away from self-destruction at that time. And remembering that this is normal.

[00:40:20]>> Yes.

[00:40:22]And what wasn't normal was was what actually happened at the beginning. So, I think it's about giving ourselves grace as well. And I just want to add to what you've said, Marcus, cuz I think it's really invaluable advice and survivors it's great that we've got Marcus here sharing these words of wisdom because it's something you can take on board and try for yourselves.

[00:40:45]So, one thing I would add, which I think may be useful, be interested in your thoughts, Marcus, is if it's hard for you to focus on a day because you're being triggered, focus on an hour. If it's hard for you to focus on an hour, focus on the minute that you're in. You only have to keep breathing to be able to manage this. And I think that's really important to recognize. There's no expectation of doing it in a fantastically capable way.

[00:41:18]The fact that you get through a day at a time and sometimes, as Marcus, you just said, we're all going to have bad days is really important to know. So, Marcus, just as we're going into a closeout, do you have any final words you would like to share with our audience today?

[00:41:45]>> Probably, I'd like to share um it's real.

[00:41:52]And I think it would be really good if society recognized it for what it was, so we could do something as a society. So, I was really inspired by handing the shame back. So, when when Ellen and Tony told me about it, I watched you for 6 months before I was, you know, keen to and I just felt that that's something we shouldn't stop talking about it.

[00:42:31]I think we should, um, as survivors, it might make others uncomfortable, but hey, this happens.

[00:42:38]This is real.

[00:42:39]>> Yep.

[00:42:39]>> And I think showing that we can survive and showing that this happens and we can prevent it and we can put things in place to protect children so they don't have to go through this. That would be my Yeah.

[00:42:58]>> So, I and I think that's really good and I like the fact that you checked me out for 6 months. There you go, audience.

[00:43:04]You see, don't just take my word for anything.

[00:43:07]So, Marcus, I must have passed the test.

[00:43:10]Thank you.

[00:43:11]>> Yes.

[00:43:13]Yes, he did.

[00:43:16]>> Look, it's, it's a big job and there are many of us out there. So, as always, we never want people to feel alone. So, Marcus, please stay there while I close out and, um, audience, once again, we have wisdom from lived survivor experience.

[00:43:39]Really important to acknowledge how you are feeling and very grateful to Marcus and he shared a lot with us today.

[00:43:49]And what I like was that he was able to recognize that self-love or being kind to self can is an output for him or is something he works on because I think that's something we don't often discuss.

[00:44:05]So, if that is you as please take on board his tips around it cuz I think that's really important.

[00:44:14]Goodbye fabulous ones. As always, I see you. I stand beside you and I believe you.