YOU BETTER YOU BET: Gambling, Privatisation & Fourty Years of Marios

Añadido: 2026-05-06

[00:00:01]You're listening to a DM podcast.

[00:00:04]>> Cricket at all. It's a website. It's a podcast. Pete, it's a way of life.

[00:00:11]>> It's Gideon Hager here and it's Peter Lawler, not that far away.

[00:00:16]>> And welcome to Qriketal, your independent cricket podcast. Yes, we're together again for the first time.

[00:00:21]Pete's down in North Melbourne in my cricket eerie and savoring the uh the ambiance of Yes. Cricket Adel's North Melbourne headquarters are media was always in South Melbourne, wasn't it?

[00:00:34]Bila Street, South Melbourne, and continues to be to some degree. But I think we're part of this trend. This is kind of the Bangalore of Melbourne.

[00:00:41]>> But where is Australian cricket at the moment, Pete? Where is Australian cricket? It's in limbo.

[00:00:45]>> Good word that is.

[00:00:46]>> It's a drift. It's a drift. Like a flying Dutchman. Who knows where it's going to pull into port if anyone will take it.

[00:00:54]>> Yeah. And apologies for starting this with we were giggling at the start of this because and I have to confess I forgot to push record again. We've done all this before.

[00:01:03]>> We have.

[00:01:03]>> But at least I push record on this thing.

[00:01:07]>> Should I really >> just check just check to make sure?

[00:01:10]>> Yeah. No, I pushed record on that thing, but I forgot to push record on that thing.

[00:01:14]>> But anyway, and I did discuss that we could because we had the sound we could mime this like the chef the chef boys do or whatever they call cheetates. They do that and Millie Vanilli. Correct.

[00:01:24]Anyway, so yes, we're in limbo.

[00:01:26]>> We're in limbo with both record buttons on. Yes.

[00:01:29]>> Um, not a happy place to be for Australian cricket, I got to say. Um, >> everyone, you said licking their wounds earlier. I said like scolded cats really. Uh, this is an unhappy uh place to be and not a place that anyone really thought that they'd uh end up in. I know that New South Wales are still shaking their heads saying, >> you know, we thought uh it was a, you know, one out, all out, you know, all in. We're going to do this together.

[00:01:57]They were very surprised to learn that there was a plan B and only had learned that this year. They thought when they um sent in their uh nay in January that it would be all over to some degree. But CA decided that it would plow on.

[00:02:11]>> Are they making it up as they go along?

[00:02:12]CA, >> there is a degree of that to all of this, isn't there? because it's never been done before and it's Yeah.

[00:02:19]>> Um and then they end up with three franchises who are for the sale and my M was that at that point they said, "Oh jeez, you know, let's cool our heels and rethink this and reassess where we're at." But I think there was some insistence for those from those franchises that wanted to go to market that you keep going. You started this, don't stop. But um >> it's a rickety old jalopy mates. It is flat.

[00:02:48]>> We've sort of we've sort of moved somewhat from the position that this is the most momentous choice that Australian cricket has ever faced and uh and will have irrevicable consequences to Yeah. Let's just roll the dice and see what comes up.

[00:03:02]>> Gambling.

[00:03:02]>> Yeah.

[00:03:03]>> Yeah.

[00:03:04]>> So, so where are our respective protagonists at the moment? Where's cricket? Where's where for instance Queensland cricket whose um whose uh resistance at the 11th hour has has put uh put put chocks beneath the wheels of cricket Australia.

[00:03:21]>> Well, Queensland cricket say that they're not against privatization per se.

[00:03:27]>> Yeah, >> they are against it with this model. I think we said last week would New South Wales position be the same as that?

[00:03:35]Well, I mean, we do we do know that John Knox as chairman of Cricket New South Wales is also involved in AR's management that has a share of the Trent Rockets. So, he's obviously not ideologically opposed to to private investment. He's buying this model.

[00:03:51]Yeah.

[00:03:52]>> As a buyer, not a seller.

[00:03:54]>> Yeah. Um and perhaps and interestingly enough in an uh a very good um article on crick info today. I don't know if you had a chance to read that sort of breaking up where we're at at with the sale. You know, of course, all of this was triggered really by the $2 billion that um the hundred got from it sale. It is actually the Trent Rockets are held up as an example of the the closest example to what was on offer with the BBL that also in that article on Creek Info um by Alex Malcolm, excellent journalist, uh is mentioned that that there was talk of selling up to 75% of that. I really cocked an eyebrow at that and rang somebody and said, "Is that right?" And they went, >> "Oh, yeah. I think there was some talk of 75%, but we all got locked in on the 49% figure."

[00:04:45]>> I'm assuming it's correct.

[00:04:46]>> Yeah.

[00:04:47]>> But, uh, you've also got to assume, don't you, that these partial sales are only ever going to be temporary, that in the end it's going to be total privatization or nothing at all.

[00:04:57]>> Yeah.

[00:04:57]>> I don't think outside investors are ever going to settle for a minority position.

[00:05:02]uh once you've once you've once the genies come out of that bottle, it's it's not going back and it's only going to get bigger.

[00:05:08]>> So, I think it's a little bit disingenuous to say that oh, you know, we can we can keep this all under control because I think once once the process has begun, the the final destination is inevitable.

[00:05:21]>> Well, it has to be a real mess to to reverse. It did happen in Aussie rules years ago. Very different environment now, didn't they?

[00:05:28]>> Sydney were a private >> That's right. West Coast Eagles. West Coast Eagles and private enterprise as well.

[00:05:33]>> Sydney and the Sydney franchise owners ended up just giving it back.

[00:05:37]>> I know. Didn't doesn't bode well, does it?

[00:05:39]>> There you go. We don't want that anymore. Yeah. Spent $2 million on it and have it back.

[00:05:44]>> So, a lot of moving parts and uh things could be very different by next week.

[00:05:49]They're very very different two weeks ago.

[00:05:51]>> Yeah. And and and one thing that's popped up in in all of this is of course this uh line item about New South Wales wanting gambling, which New South Wales have said, for God's sake, you know, this this is our enemies trying to portray us as sort of reckless. Uh this is a small item about increasing license fees, but a bit later on in the show, >> indeed. Guest, >> Mark Kempster.

[00:06:14]>> Mark Kempster, who from the was it it's called the Alliance for Gambling Reform.

[00:06:20]I should have checked that before I uttered it. But uh but he's uh he's given us an interview. It's an excellent interview where he talks about his own experiences as a gambler and his work subsequently as an advocate uh for reform of the industry >> and interesting enough not against gambling per se.

[00:06:36]>> No, no, no.

[00:06:39]>> So Pete, what else is happening in the world of cricket? Well, interestingly in the in the world in the world of private investment, >> Roerson Royals have a new owner. They only had a new owner the other day, but They've somehow somehow the previous transaction has fallen through. Um, a consortium led by an American businessman called K Sammani, wasn't it?

[00:06:59]That's right. With uh with some I think representatives of the Walton family from the US. They look like a very interesting manifestation of American interest in the IPL. But they're gone.

[00:07:10]>> They're gone.

[00:07:10]>> They're gone. And a new consortium has emerged majority owned by a man called Lakshmi Mattel who is he was for a period a Britain's richest man wasn't he? He owned um he bought Arcelor Steel the French steel operator 20 years ago and and established himself as as that.

[00:07:31]But he's now >> he's now a tax exile. He's he he left Britain last year, didn't he? um when uh nondom status was was rescinded.

[00:07:41]>> Let's let's let's feel feel the the the fabric of this mago. He was in fact the third richest man in the world.

[00:07:50]>> Now India India has a con at least a connection to because he left India I think uh in ' 95. has been gone a long time and living in England but uh he's the sixth recently the sixth richest people person in the world dropped to 82nd >> by 2024 so things aren't going that well >> still not a great industry to be in but um but you know he's he's basically richer than God and he's bought it for his kids >> have you seen his house >> he's not struggling is he >> no that's in Kensington Palace Gardens it's one of the most expensive pieces of real estate on the planet. He's bought a house nearby for his daughter >> and another house >> and now and now a and now a cricket franchise.

[00:08:33]>> His daughter had her wedding at the at the Palace of Versailles. It was the sixth most expensive wedding in history.

[00:08:39]>> Only the sixth.

[00:08:39]>> Yes, I've been on she's slipping.

[00:08:42]>> Anyway, back to Yeah. So, where do they find these guys?

[00:08:45]>> Where do they find them? Yeah. Well, they all love cricket, don't they? It's one thing that draws them together. Um and there's a scarcity of assets. the um you know there were only two franchises for sale this time round with the RCB and uh and Rajasthan. So there was obviously quite vigorous competition for each. So with one with one potential buyer falling through there was there was another one coming up just behind >> and I think what they pay $2 billion there two billion that's how much the whole of the hundred sold for.

[00:09:14]>> Exactly. It's more than Australian cricket's worth.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah.

[00:09:18]Scary scary sums of money. Yeah.

[00:09:21]>> God. Next thing you know, Elon Musk will be at the [ __ ] door.

[00:09:25]>> Interestingly, I was um I I paid a little visit on Saturday to uh to the uh Rajasthan Royals out station in Bondura.

[00:09:34]>> I read about that. Yeah. What >> the weekend Royals Melbourne Academy. It was fascinating actually. Yeah. I heard about it a few weeks ago and I thought I' got to go and have a look at this.

[00:09:44]Yeah. So, I tried out to uh to to Bondura on on Saturday morning and I mean it's it's great when when people are getting together to play cricket in winter in Melbourne. It just feels awesome, you know. It's just like a striking a blow against the against the empire.

[00:10:00]>> You found your tribe.

[00:10:03]>> Well, I was actually going for a net a little bit later on with my own teammates. So, so it was a great opportunity to get some new gear. They were very kindly settled on me a new trackuit. And there were a group of 20 you cricket code of ethics.

[00:10:18]>> I look great in it, too.

[00:10:20]>> Um, >> yeah.

[00:10:21]>> And I think there were four or five girls and and 16 or so boys. And they were doing more physical training than I've done in my entire >> really >> cricket career. a lot of running up and running back and jumping and standing still and uh lifting things and uh looked very very serious but hugely enthusiastic and terrific coaches really really good attention I thought from from the coaches and a real sort of collegial sense about it and a sense that you know something interesting was was happening and it is interesting isn't it that uh here we are >> in this in this in this age where the kind of the geographic boundaries are collapsing here here was evidence of it that um we have a an IPL franchise in Melbourne helping to groom talent that potentially could go to the IPL. It could also go to Victorian Cricket. It could go anywhere. Uh it was a great experience.

[00:11:17]>> Do you pay tuition for >> You do pay I think it was $2,995 for a 12week course. There's a succession of courses uh off the back of this that that are going to run uh across the year. You don't have to be involved in it all, but you but you can >> uh later on they uh they do more preparation and uh and there's going to be some games later in the later in the year at the moment. Um interestingly, one of our commenters observed on cricket that this is normally a period where young Victorian cricketers are resting. If they're in the um in the elite programs here, they're usually given a couple of months off after the cricket season to to um rejuvenate and to refresh. But there's clearly >> play a winter sport. Well play. Well, yeah, I don't think that I'm not sure even sure that happens anymore, but um scarf gone. It was here before.

[00:12:08]>> Yeah, it was. It's over here, mate. It's over here. Go Cats. Go Cats.

[00:12:13]>> Well played on the weekend, mate.

[00:12:14]>> Thank you. Um so, yeah, it was yeah, an interesting glimpse of uh of and the other thing which I thought was interesting, it is avouedly about T20 skills. this uh this this course it is not about cricket per se. It is about it is about power. It's about variation.

[00:12:35]It's um it's about fitness. Um it's about dynamism and you know they've got a baseball coach coming to teach the players about power positions and uh >> it's accessing different parts of the field.

[00:12:47]>> This is this is a it's called the elite T20 program. In fact, >> did it feel legit for you? Because there are some of these operations around the world, you know, like very much and it's a massive problem in soccer or football.

[00:12:59]Yeah. Come to my academy. I promise to the world.

[00:13:02]>> No, really and a really good center actually. Really nice people running it.

[00:13:05]Um looked as they'd spent a few bucks out there and uh little kit room upstairs, little said little vanity fair prints around the around the around the outside. Little pictures of Bradman on the on the on the wall. WG Grace, George Bonner. I was thinking what would George Bonner would have been a great T20 player.

[00:13:23]>> Can I ask with my Angus Taylor hat on um what demographic were they?

[00:13:28]>> Uh >> I reckon probably yeah roughly sort of 50/50 South Asian Anglo >> children of recent im of immigrant.

[00:13:37]>> I spoke to a guy who um who had bought his son he'd driven him two hours from Beric to get there in the morning.

[00:13:45]>> Yeah. Cuz I told you that story I think at the start of the start of the last summer that I was talking to someone and they said out in western Sydney the nets were full all winter opposite their cafe and I've never seen anyone in the nets in the inner west in this time of year >> although I I went across a group of >> I was walking home at 10:00 at night >> just by the Cooks River on a little field there. The lights were on the training lights.

[00:14:11]>> Uh Bangladesh T20 comp was going on.

[00:14:14]>> Fantastic. Yeah, I'd had a few went and stood a square leg, offered to help.

[00:14:18]>> No, not really.

[00:14:21]>> Um, >> yes.

[00:14:23]>> Yeah. No, really enjoyable trip. And I >> And you've also uh written a chapter in a book about our favorite cafe, Mario's, our favorite cafe in Melbourne.

[00:14:33]>> All due respect to Double Tap in Sydney.

[00:14:35]>> Yeah. Marios on Brunswick Street is celebrating its 40th anniversary. It's published a uh a new book to uh to celebrate. It had a party last night at the bolo on Brunswick Street which was just sensational.

[00:14:48]>> Was it?

[00:14:48]>> Yeah.

[00:14:49]>> Yeah. You walked in, you thought, I know who that guy is. I can't remember his name. We won't get to that stage now. Or I recognize lots of people, but I can't work out who they are.

[00:14:57]>> We've all got a bit sort of shrink wrapped and air dried too, Gideon. So, we look like, you know, a kind of Yeah.

[00:15:03]desiccated version of that person you used to know.

[00:15:06]>> But it was a great night. It was a great night. And uh we'll be at Mario's this evening, won't we, Pete?

[00:15:10]>> Naturally. Goes without saying. What are we doing for lunch?

[00:15:13]>> Uh, I'll sort it out.

[00:15:14]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:15:16]>> All right then.

[00:15:16]>> What else is happening in the IPL, Pete?

[00:15:19]>> Well, hey, I tell you what. Something is happening in the IPL. I've got on my phone here. This is I was waiting for this moment to arrive and it's really good >> given that um that there is an academy here. The Aussies are back in favor.

[00:15:32]>> Oh, really? Okay. you know, they were on the nose bit of the IPL, but um Sanjay Manra, >> right, >> has declared the Australians are the players that you want. If you reach the playoffs and the finals, the more Australians that you have, the better it is.

[00:15:50]>> Interesting.

[00:15:51]>> And spoken very highly of Josh Hayeswood just by saying that the pitches don't suit him >> and Mitchell Stark um >> among others. But given the cynicism around Australians contributions to the IPL's earlier in the year, there's not that many Australians at the IPL. No, they're not. About six.

[00:16:11]>> And they're not all playing, are they?

[00:16:12]>> Well, I think only about half a dozen, maybe eight have actually played in the IPL. It's not that many at all.

[00:16:18]>> More were playing in the PSL, weren't there?

[00:16:19]>> Well, now that I think of it, if I do a quick Yeah, maybe there's more signed up who have actively played. Yeah.

[00:16:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's interesting, isn't it, that um that uh you still talk about the idea of it it being a useful attribute to have Australian players who are accustomed to to high pressure situations. I suspect that Australian players going to the IPL become accustomed to high pressure situations and maybe bring that experience back to Australia. But um it's an interesting it's it's been an interesting IPL in the sense that unlike I think previous years >> if I I'm going on a faulty memory here.

[00:16:55]There does seem to have been a gap open up between the top five and the bottom five teams.

[00:17:01]>> The top five I was looking at the other day. I think they've won twice as many games as the as as the bottom five. And even though it you know it's it's four, isn't it? Who who go into the playoffs.

[00:17:12]Yeah.

[00:17:12]>> So, some teams already it feels like they've fallen out of contention. LSG for instance, they're they're two and >> they're almost out, but they're not completely. But I reckon every year you see them, they go around that halfway mark >> and the field the order of the field changes. Those bat markers come up and things.

[00:17:30]>> Well, the seasons are long enough now that it is quite difficult to sustain peak performance for its full duration.

[00:17:35]And of course, injuries crop up and and attrition and the ration of home games versus away games. And the pitchers probably change character slightly as they get more wear and tear going deeper into the tournament.

[00:17:47]>> Well, they've cuz it's just been an absolute slog fest, hasn't it? A frightening slog fest. Actually, >> it's going to be coming. I always think that with uh with women's cricket, the batting the batting advanced much more quickly and to a better place than the bowling's got to yet.

[00:18:04]>> You know, the bowling hasn't kept up with the batting. The same situation in the IPL in some ways. The bowlers can't keep up. Well, all the rule changes that they have are to the advantage of the batters, aren't they? You know, >> it's a batsman's game, isn't it?

[00:18:16]>> It is a batsman's game, but it's it's not even >> Even T20 is a batsman's game. Well, especially T20 is a batsman's game.

[00:18:22]Yeah.

[00:18:24]>> So, the highlights are getting longer every season, aren't they? Because there are more fours and sixes to accommodate and fewer wickets.

[00:18:31]>> We do our cricket highlights package.

[00:18:33]Good leaves.

[00:18:37]You won't believe this leave.

[00:18:40]>> Anyway, I think it's time for us to take a break, Pete, and we'll come back with our special guest, Mike Kempster. Um, we'll be back on Quick at a time.

[00:18:49]>> Australians spend four times as much each year on gambling than the government spends on the defense budget.

[00:18:56]How about that? That's a great stat. We love a stat on cricket. And the $32 billion lost each year make Australia the biggest gambling losers per capita in the world.

[00:19:07]>> And to talk about that today, we've got Mark Kempster, who was who was, I'm sorry to say, a contributor to those losses for a decade, but he stopped but he stopped in 2020 and now he warns us about them. Mark, welcome to Cricketal.

[00:19:24]>> Thank you. Appreciate it. and it's a great opportunity for you to tell us something about your personal story. So, um, so let's get down and dirty. What was it like down there? You're in that in that lost decade of yours. It was, it was tough. It's the hardest 10 years of my life. And it's it's cost me a significant amount of money, but the money is not as important to me as the time it actually probably cost me in my life. Like, your 20s are such a formative time of your life, and my 20s was basically gambling pretty much. I was a pretty athletic footy player down here in Tazzay in Hobart where I live.

[00:19:58]And um that by the time I was 25, I'd given that up and decided that gambling was what I wanted to do most weekends.

[00:20:05]And by when I was 30, by the time I was 32, when everything came out with my addiction that I'd lost at least six figures that I can account for, it would be more than that easily, but at least six figures. And um yeah and turn meanings from this sporty funloving person to this shell of a angry vindictive gambling robot basically by the end of it.

[00:20:26]>> What what was the attraction of gambling Mark and was is there was there an entry point for you?

[00:20:32]>> I've always been a sporty person like cricket and footy absolutely loved it all my life. Played footy. Never really played a lot of cricket. Played at school a little bit but I love cricket just as much as footy. I just chose to go down the footy path when I was younger. So it it's just something I love. And I think my I was around a lot of older boys at the time. So I played upgrades when I was younger. So I was playing reserves when I was 15, 16, that type of stuff with the man. And I think just we have a culture like Gideon said, we have a culture in Australia of gambling, especially in sporting clubs. We have a culture of um punters clubs and syndicates and raffle, everything that comes along with being around the older boys at the time. So, um I think I just felt like it was something I needed to do to fit in probably a bit more when I was at the club. And then it and because of my love of sport, it just it became bigger and bigger and bigger as it went along. And then once we had access to gambling apps on our phones in this country, that's when I really lost the plot with it, I suppose, and went downhill from there.

[00:21:27]>> What was it that attracted you to gambling >> and and and that got its claws into you?

[00:21:34]And cuz it's not unusual with with sports people as you say you're a former sports person and I mean hey we're Australia is a nation that whose cricket captain was called punter.

[00:21:45]>> So you know it's pretty much part and parcel of life but I noticed with sports people who have a lot of time they have a lot of money and they're prone to risk takingaking that that gambling can fill the gap. Um fortunately now they seem to have turned to golf a little bit more to fill those gaps but nonetheless. So gambling is really strong in Australian sporting culture.

[00:22:07]>> But what was it about the act of having a a bet that appealed to you? Was it the chance to be rich? Was it the risk? Was it >> I I think for me I kind of built my whole persona about being a sports guy and being I suppose someone that people could lean on for g for sporting advice and then that then to me led into gambling. When I started gambling, people saw me as the gambler, I suppose, of the group of mates I was in. And I think that I had a lot of um issues with my own probably self-esteem at the time and my own fear of people leaving me in my life because of if I changed the person I was. So, I think that had a really big factor in it. Obviously, on top of the fact that once once you're addicted and you win something, it's like with any drug, you're just chasing the actual win and the the dopamine effect that it has on your body at the time. So it is a combination of those things, but I think I really bu build built persona in myself that that was going to be the person just going to be that's the person I wanted to be and in that group of friends I had.

[00:23:07]>> So you lived that life out loud. So you your friends knew that you were a gambler but at the same time a big part of that a big part of your gambling life was also kept secret because of course you weren't telling people about your losses. So would I be right in saying that you ended up leading a kind of a double life? Yeah, I lived the life of 10 years and that that's the life of any addict. I think they live you live a lie. You're telling lie upon life upon li to cover up everything and that and that does as much damage to your own mental health as as the actual gambling physically does to you as it mentally does to you because you you are you're just the shell of a person. You you're hiding everything all the time. I had to hide. I had to justify why I had no money to go to the shop and get bread of milk. Basically, when with when my partner I had to borrow her car to go down there or I had to call mom up and say I was oh the pays at work have been stuffed up this week so I needed you to can you cover me for 200 bucks for for three or four days until I got more money coming in. So all those little things around that just it just builds up and turns you into just this this shell and robot of a person basically where you're just living a lie the whole time and and your mental health suffers significantly because of it.

[00:24:14]Um I I'm I'm from a completely other era and up up on the notice board I have the little pin there that my mother wore at the at the lucky shop uh where she work she worked at the tab. When I grew up when I grew up to gamble you went to the tab or you went to a racetrack and you placed a bet and it was a process. It wasn't easy. You had to do it in person.

[00:24:37]You couldn't do it on the phone. Things like that. Uh I was in Sri Lanka early last year was it? And um I ran into a gambling analyst and he pulled up an app on his phone cuz he was saying he said you'd be amazed about how many bets I could have right now on cricket games and how many cricket games I can bet on.

[00:24:57]So it were you the availability of of gambling is extraordinary now isn't it?

[00:25:03]And the ease of access to gambling anywhere in the world. Were you broadly spread or narrow focus in where you were getting? So horse racing was my main vice really. I I've been on the footy and the cricket as well, but horse racing for me and gray rounds to an extent was where I laid a lot of my money. But Pete's right. I I I could be betting I have a really good day in Australia because I'd actually I do I'd probably do some form for Australian racing, but then by the end of the day I might have won say a couple thousand dollars and I'd start betting over in the UK or I'd start betting in South Africa with absolutely no idea what I was doing just because I still feel the need to keep chasing it. And that's the problem we have. We have this and like Pete's saying with cricket like you can bet on great cricket these days. It's it's so it's intrusive. It's everywhere. And that just pulls you if you're someone who wants to keep betting on something.

[00:25:52]You can find something anywhere in the world. And you can I can pull out my phone and get a bet on within 10 seconds. And you and your brain can't actually work out what you're doing in that 10 seconds. Especially when you're an addict. It can take two to three minutes to actually have a rational thought to realize what's going on.

[00:26:07]So, we we've talked a lot in in Australia about the the um the influence that betting advertisements have on us.

[00:26:14]That that constant that constant reinforcement of the idea that betting is a kind of a a fun knockabout way to to to amuse yourself and it's it's a great way to spend time with your with your mates cuz often these people are depicted as as betting collectively and you know performatively. What influence do you think betting advertisements had on you? Or do you think gambling was already had its hooks into you so deeply that they were just kind of part of the wallpaper as it were?

[00:26:45]>> Oh, the advertising had an effect like I was still probably I was I was addicted really early on. So probably from two years in I knew I had an addiction quite badly and I covered it for another 10 8 to 10 years afterwards. that um the advertising still had an effect on me because it just it made me feel like if I they glamorized to make it look like such a fun mates thing to do and if you're not doing that then you're the par of thing if you're want to speak up and not do it then that you're going to be the issue. I that's how it made me feel and that's how it makes so many people feel like in the role I do now as an advocate but I also do a lot of counseling of people these days to get them out of addiction help them out of addiction and they all tell me the same thing they feel that their track because they are going to be the bad guy if they don't want to do this matey bet with mates culture that they have at their sporting club so it has that huge mental effect on you and makes you feel like you're the bad person if you're not doing it. Um, on top of the fact that the ads also lead you into bad bets, they lead you into multi bets which hardly ever win. They don't offer and that's that's the reason they they offer those type of advertisements on TV. And the bonus bets and inducements they offer on top as well, which is a lot of my issue. They just drag you back in every time you're almost away from it as well.

[00:27:55]>> Do what is it physically like to see an ad for gambling on the television or on the on the boundary ropes or on the screen when you are an addict? cuz I I think I noted from the um report into gambling that at least half a million Australians have asked for gambling blocks from their bank account. So that means there are half a million people watching the TV. Does it does it influence you seeing those ads on TV? I think I read once that you said it alarms that you are frightened that that that will tip you back in. Yeah, I I I have to avoid watching sport, a lot of sport at the moment or I watch it on delay and so I can flick through what I need to flick through on the TV because when I was gambling, it made it generally made me want to gamble. If I saw it, I could see something go I haven't got a bet on that particular um app or that particular market. I better go and have one there as well cuz that's cuz you you justify that oh that'll probably be something that you'll win and you haven't got one there so go and do it. So when you're gambling that and an addict, that's where it pulls you in there. But now, as someone who's trying to recover, I have to to make a choice to prioritize my own mental health over watching sport because it makes me so angry because I know what this is doing to hundreds of thousands of Australians every day. And we're making being made to choose between our love of sport or our own mental health at the moment, which is shocking.

[00:29:13]>> Yeah, it's interesting that. So, so I think the stats are one in four men between 18 and 24 is a regular punter.

[00:29:22]And in the 25 to 34 bracket, it's it's 1 in3. Now, there's kind of your peak sports playing years as well. What what does it mean to our relationship to sport that we're doing that we're betting simultaneous with playing it?

[00:29:41]We because we've built this culture around it, the gambling companies have done an amazing job that they're the tobacco industry of the of our time.

[00:29:48]They've done an amazing job to link the two things together. So I think that if you play sport, you just presume you have to gamble on that sport these days as well as part of the culture. And that's a shocking place we've led our country to because of the way we've let this industry act unregulated for a good 20 years now. And there is this intrinsically linked nexus now between gambling and sport. Like I took my son, my son plays kick down here in Hobart.

[00:30:14]The amount of times I went kick last year and got eight and nine year olds talking about sport in terms of odds, not in terms of actually who's playing is crazy. I think the stats that we did we got for the alliance last year was that there's 600,000 kids under 18 in Australia had a bet last year and that's more than more than it's playing soccer and basketball during last year as well at that age. So how many was that Mark?

[00:30:37]>> 600 600,000 kids had a bet last year under 18 >> that we we got those research for. Yep.

[00:30:44]>> I noticed when Usman Kawaja made a representation about gambling to to Parliament, he said that that kids, as you say, kids are turning up to his cricket camps um with betting apps on their phone. 16-year-old kids with betting apps on their phone. And I know from watching my own son grow up and his school of sporty mates, it it's just part and parcel of what they do. And I I think to to a certain point um um we have and the sport has focused on the damage that gambling gambling does to the sport through corruption and we've seen that in in recent weeks with um the Canadian team um being accused of cheating during the World Cup. Uh but the corruption the corruption of sports fans is far more significant impact uh and and something that we probably only starting to pay uh some attention to particularly because now New South Wales cricket have suggested in a proposal that uh maybe cricket doesn't get as much revenue from gambling as it could get and certainly doesn't get as much as um Aussie rules or NRL or things like that. Have you followed this debate and where what do you think about it this situation?

[00:31:57]>> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm terrified if they go down that path. Like the AFL and the NRL in particular have sold their souls to gambling and they're making huge amounts of profit from it, but to me cricket's still the one area that I can comfortably still go to and watch majority of the time. I'm not going to know that it's around the rope, but outside of that, I don't really have to worry too much about watching cricket on TV these days and seeing gambling because they have been strong and and Mike B in particular has been extremely strong that we we know of behind the scenes to try and stop the infiltration of gambling. But to me, if they open that Pandora's box, I don't think they're going to be able to pull back in. They won't be able to run back in once they get they call into them because I think it's $15 million I made roughly from gambling revenue last year.

[00:32:40]Wicket Australia into 51 million with the AFL and the NRL. So there is a big gap there that >> and the other part of I don't really see how cricket um could open themselves more to gambling like the AFL have just in terms of things like that given the issues they've had with match fixing and and spot fixing across the years.

[00:33:02]>> More markets are going to allow that. It was makes a a much bigger integrity issue for the game as well. So I think that's something they have to consider if they do look at that path. But I'm really I'd be terrified if they do go down that path.

[00:33:14]>> Yeah. Well, the pars is that that cricket cricket New South Wales has a partnership with with reclaim the game and based on it having turned down >> sports betting sponsorship and it is I think it says it's committed to eliminating sports betting advertising shown at home games wherever they can and committed to educating fans, players and staff about the risks of excessive sports betting and gambling harm. Now their their counterargument to this is that they simply believe that cricket Australia can extract more in product fees from its existing gaming partners.

[00:33:48]>> But would I not be right in saying that that would be an incitement to those partners who are strenuously resistant to to any check or balance um deepening their inroads, expanding their markets and multiplying the possibilities of of gambling on cricket. Yeah. And and that's I think for them to increase their revenue would have to be more markets on cricket. And that like I said that just opens up a huge Pandora's box of other integrity issues that they might stumble across because of that because there's not as many chances to have multi bets in cricket as there is in the NFL and the footy because you can bet on the game result and disclosure markets and goal kicking markets and millions of other things with the footy compared to cricket where there's not just not that avenue at the moment. So that that's what they're looking at in terms of not advertising but more of a product fee because I think it's about 5% for for cricket and 6% for footy at the moment. I think that's the difference. It's not a big difference percentage. It's just the fact they have 100 more markets and more cricket can offer at the moment.

[00:34:51]it just to be fair, I approached New South Wales um before the podcast and said, "Look, if this if this proposal is benign as you claim, show it to us.

[00:35:04]>> We want to know what it is." Um, thus far, they haven't shown it to me. If they do before we publish the podcast, I'll certainly make it known. I listened to their board member, Ed Cowan, speaking a few days ago on his podcast, which is great. um he they deny that it will lead to an increase in gam advertising or sponsorship or betting offerings. So it'd be interesting to see what it is. And just on it, it was quite heartening to hear you say that you can watch cricket and I think and bed and cricket Australia deserve um some plaudit I think and I'd be interested in your opinion on this in the fact that they've actually put a rope around the BBL is my understanding. There is no gambling advertising at all around the BBL because it is a youth, you know, it's aimed at a youth market. So, good on them for that. They deserve some kudos for that.

[00:35:57]>> Oh, they definitely do. And and like I said, compared to what the AFL and the NRL are, they are a standout in terms of the way they've kept it out of in particular the BBL, which is such a family product. We want to we want kids to go and watch it. Like I'm not a BBL.

[00:36:10]I'm a test match guy through and three.

[00:36:12]I'm not the be the old person at all, but when I take my son to the cricket when he wants to go, it is nice to know I can turn up and not have a bet 365 or a sports bet banner when I walk in the doors. It's on the rope. Okay, it's there. But outside of that, I'm not having to worry about all this other stuff that's abrasively thrown in your face like they do with AFL and NRL do.

[00:36:31]>> Now, Mark, we do actually now have some betting regulation in Australia after a very, very long wait. Uh, gambling ads are to be banned on TV during sports broadcasts and they're to be capped.

[00:36:47]They're capped between 6:00 a.m. and and 8:30 p.m. And uh, celebrities and sports players um are now to be um, prevented from appearing in in gambling ads and um, and various other various other sort of measures.

[00:37:05]Why is this not enough? Why? Why has the Albanese government fallen short of your hopes and expectations?

[00:37:12]>> How long we got get in? Um >> um >> um careful Mark. He's my local member.

[00:37:20]>> That's all right. So Oh, you might be able to put a good word in speak to me.

[00:37:24]So >> don't worry.

[00:37:26]>> So yes, they have put in some caps. I I still we still need to see the draft form of what this is going to be because I'd like to Yes. It's at the moment there's a live sport carve out with the ads, but I'm I'd like to make sure that's still there once this draft form comes through because the way we've possibly read it in some other parts is that after 8:30 it could just be a free-for-all for everyone to they can just move all their gambling ads to after 8:30 at night and last time I checked before the cricket goes past 8:30 at night. So, you could still have this issue where they're just dumping everything into those time slots. Um, yes, the the celebrity carve out and the sports player carve out is awesome because that that is what pulls kids and gun people in. So, how how they do that it will be interesting because whether I don't know about there's laws around free trade that type of thing. I don't know how they could actually or even inate who's a celebrity or who's a influencer or whatever they're going to do with that might be difficult. Um, but it's a good start. The issue for me is that there's no national regulator announced anywhere in this reform and at the moment we have the Northern Territory completely incapable of running it but basically the quasi regulator for the country given that all the bookmakers have based themselves up there for tax purposes. So um Steve Canane did a fantastic report on four corners here about that and the fact that the UK who lose nowhere near per capita the same amount that we lose have 100 people working full-time in that industry. We have six part six of 12 part- timers working for the Northern Territory government to regulate a multi-billion dollar industry in Australia. So, and looking at complaints and and and issues with the industry, all that type of thing. So, we haven't got that there at all. The other main issue is that inducements, as I mentioned before, there's no talk about banning those at all. So, things like bonus bets and deposit matches and and credit lines that gambling companies can offer people. Um, that that is still there. And that was a huge issue for me when I was gambling and I'd taken a few days off. All of a sudden, I have a bonus bed in my account ready to go. The gambling company will keep luring you back in. We wouldn't offer free cigarettes to people walking down the street and then come back next week and get like more free ones if you want some more. So damn is the same thing. It's an addictive adult product. We shouldn't be offering it free to people to lure them back into cheap betting more and more.

[00:39:43]So they're the two I could go into 20 other ones, but they're the two main ones I see as the main the main parts that missed on and they're all in the Murphy report as well. And they were some of the key recommendations in Peter Murphy's report, which the government had taken over a thousand days to respond to unfortunately.

[00:40:00]>> 31 recommendations. How many have are they talking about adopting? I think it's a it's handful, isn't it?

[00:40:05]>> Uh yeah, you probably count them on one hand. I would have thought maybe.

[00:40:08]>> Yeah.

[00:40:09]>> You win some, you lose more. That was the name of that report, wasn't it?

[00:40:13]>> Yeah.

[00:40:13]>> Yeah.

[00:40:14]>> What about what about the media, the corporate media in Australia, because I think they're surely one of the biggest fans of gambling advertising. A lot of their other um revenue sources of advertising have dried up. The um gambling has been a good friend to to corporate media in Australia. Do you trust what you read in mainstream media about gambling ads or do they have a vested interest in uh in the maintenance of the links with uh with with that industry? Yeah, I don't trust them at all. No, but um it's um the the the the amount of power that the the media companies in particular the ones who have the sporting rights push and the ears they get into in CRA are the are a massive problem. What we they are hellbent on stopping any type of gambling advertising reform and they will keep pushing that as much as they can. They uh they uh go with this argument every time that if you we lose gambling advertising on TV then Ozkick and Kanger cricket and what what Milo cricket that all go we we guys can't afford that if we take our advertising away from from sporting codes and they're using these scare tactics which is pretty abhorentt to use children's sport as a scare tactic to to keep gambling advertising on TV in my opinion but they are they are terrified of losing it. I just don't think they want to try to find the the the revenue in other places. I'm positive that people would still want to advertise with the AFL and Cricket Australia and NRL. I think they'll be able to find the the differences, but um I know for a fact when we when the times I've been to CRA, they you can see them there. They're always there. They're in people's ears.

[00:41:50]Um in particular Peter Valantes and people like this who have the crossover with media and the NRL and race in New South Wales. like he's got unfortunately our our prime minister listens probably more to him than people like myself which is a a pretty upsetting thing to think about.

[00:42:05]>> It's a pretty difficult um I mean it's a incredibly powerful relationship to have isn't it to to be the lifeblood apart from Harvey Norman of the legacy media and newspapers >> aside from Harvey um >> you you you are only going to get positive coverage in the press. Um, Valandis has a direct link into the Sydney Morning Herald and the Daily Telegraph and presumably the other papers where he picks up the phone and he essentially it dictates coverage to a degree. Uh, and he's allowed to do that because he he they they rely so heavily on advertising from the the racing industry and from the gambling industry and things like that. Um, and we we even see in social media, I mean, most of the major cricket podcasts don't accept gambling advertising, do they, Gideon?

[00:42:58]That I can see. Not that I sort of listen to them all, but but pretty much all of our peers have said no to gambling advertising, but but you see it spill out into well, clearly Giddy and I are never going to be influencers. Um, you you see it spill into that sphere and, you know, and I come up, you know, and those two kids um, and I'm not having a crack at them. I think the shipmates showed up in the Caribbean shooting content and of course I'm pretty sure that that would have been a uh gambling company that was promoting and paying for that and and for all those sorts of ventures.

[00:43:32]>> Um that they have got a serious serious they what's the opposite of a virtuous circle? Gideon, you must know the opposite because >> a vicious circle. Yeah, I think it needs more than that. But there's there's yeah this is definitely you know like the human caterpillar of um endeavor between the media companies and the gambling companies.

[00:43:56]>> I think I like you I've seen it like I've seen influences like I reach out to a lot of them like cricket you are right a lot of them have been really strong and that's awesome like pairs and he go and and those other boys who I've spoken to they they they've been on record to say they don't take it. They've had David Pock on their podcast which has been fantastic to get the word out about how dangerous of an issue this is. But you have the younger ones coming through who unfortunately they the gambling companies offer them huge amounts of money. I've seen one informance that got offered5 to $6,000 for a 30 secondond reel basically on his page from a gambling company. So when you're a 20 25 year old male and you and you getting that money to do 30 seconds of work and you get $5,000, I I I can't I I I I really I feel bad judging them because I do judge them for taking it, but I do understand it as well why the the money's there and the gambling company. This is the other problem with the advertising ban that they're just going to move online.

[00:44:50]They're they're going to move to influencers. They're going to move to podcast and they're going to get around.

[00:44:54]You've already seen Sports Bed have already pulled a lot of their advertising for football around the the the old Nathan Brown popping his head up telling put a multi on that's gone now.

[00:45:03]It's all online influencer advertising.

[00:45:05]They're using their spend there. So the government need to look at that part of it as well. But they just the cricket need to understand the social license they have in these type of things as well and and kind of put not pressure but use podcasters and news influencers more for their products who aren't taking the money. But that's not going to happen. And that's just my wishful thinking, but that's something possible as well.

[00:45:27]>> Is this such a serious problem that we should stop gambling? Full stop. Mark, are you No, >> no, no. I'm I'm never prohibitionist in any way with this. There is a place for gambling. Just because I've had an issue doesn't mean there's other people who enjoy it on a Saturday. I'm not taking someone else's enjoyment away from their lives. But I want my friends I still go to the pub on a Saturday and my friends been around me. That's fine. I just want them to be able to safely do it and not fall into an addiction like I did because at the moment it is so easy for someone to be trapped in an addiction.

[00:45:56]It can happen like that like quick of the fingers you can go from enjoying it to having a problem because of how we are bombarded with it and how there is just extremely lack regulation around it. So this isn't a thing about banning gambling and I never yeah I don't want to see that happen but we need to have do much more about them. So Mark, what would a well- reggulated, socially responsible gambling industry look like in Australia? How would we experience it? What needs to change? I' I'd be able to turn on the TV on Saturday and watch Calling with my with my son and not have to tell him why I'm watching football.

[00:46:33]Like he asked me, "Why only watching this live? Hasn't that game finished?"

[00:46:36]I'm like, "Yeah." But like to to have that have to explain that to my son at 8, like I'm going to have to have that discussion with him down the road about why I am the way I am. But um and what I why I do what I do. He doesn't really understand why I do what I do at the moment. But to me, I'd love to be able to turn the TV on and watch footy with him live and enjoy the the game for what it is. I'd like to be able to turn a podcast or a radio on and listen to like Sem, listen to Jared Wakeley because I love his show, but I don't listen to it anymore because the dad reads and Gam reads all through it. Yeah, that that is we we wouldn't do it for cigarettes. We wouldn't do it for drugs. We like we did we took away vents and hedges from the cricket because we knew the damage it was doing. Like we we need to have it the companies need to understand that this is an addictive product and just because you can advertise it shouldn't have you shouldn't you should take some responsibility around that. So to me that's what I like to see along with plenty of other things. But yeah, I'm not wishful thinking at the moment.

[00:47:31]>> Well Mark you'll always be able to listen to cricketal because I agree. The only thing that you'd have to worry about would be our very long sail reads >> when you start to multi bets on switch.

[00:47:44]>> Mark, one thing I want to ask you is like you haven't had a bet for how long?

[00:47:49]Um 5 years now.

[00:47:51]>> Six and a half years. What do you What's the term for that? When you're alcoholic or a drug addict, you're sober. What are you when I'm always going to be Yeah.

[00:48:01]>> How did How did you break the addiction cycle? I mean, people will be listening and be interested. How How did you snap out of it? Did you just wake up one day and say, "I'm not going to have a bet."

[00:48:08]>> No, no, no. It wasn't by choice. I I got found out, man. So, Cox Plate Grand AFL Grand Final 2020, it was the co year, so I got pushed back to they were on the same time. So, it was the one at the Gaba. Um, I was pretty pretty much a broken person by that time, but I saw that day as a day to try and win some money back. So I lost h I I put a lot of money on lost about 10 grand that day and that was pretty much everything I had in my account to that day. So um left the pub that day cuz we're in Tazzy didn't have the co restrictions which we're lucky for. So went up to a mate's place and went to watch the grand final and decided I was going to just I had enough. I wrote myself off drunk that night. Drank a bottle of scotch and didn't see the end of the game. Got sent home and my partner had disco like she she was and we're still together now.

[00:48:56]She's the love of my life. But at the time, she was ready to leave me because of the person I turned into. And she kind of decided to have a look at my phone for once and see what was going on. And she saw what had happened. And then um put it on me the next day that I didn't get myself right. And basically she'd have she'd probably go and take my son with me. My son was 2 years old at the time. And it was his second birthday that day when it all happened. So um had to pull myself together. She had a birthday party. But then um kind of that was I needed that in my head cuz I'd known I've been an addict for so long and I I knew I I wasn't I was never suicidal per se, but I I knew this was going to kill me at some stage just because of what it was going to take away from me during my life. And um so I kind of that I I needed to hit rock bottom. That was my rock bottom. And I think most people need to hit that rock bottom before they can turn around. And that was the catalyst for me. And I haven't had a bet since that day. Um, now it was taken a lot of hard work as I've got mental health plans in place. I see a psychologist regularly. Um, I help like part of my recovery and doing these podcast is because I know this message helps. I know people who will some one person will hear this and it will help one person and I know that's all I need to do with this type of stuff. Help one person every day where I can. And that gives me a lot of drive to keep going and keep fighting for what we need to try and save people in this country at the moment. Are you conscious of the urge, Mark? Are you conscious of the urge? Do you still feel occasionally like I wouldn't mind having a having a pun on this? I feel like I know something about it >> every not not hardly hardly ever now. It took a long time though. Like it's taken three or four years to get past that. So something I really did um to help me was trying to retrain the urge into something positive. So every time I felt the urge to gamble um again I was a fit person. When I finished gambling, I put on 40 kilos, 120 kilos when I finished gambling. So, I decided I wanted to get fit. So, every time I had the urge to bet, I chuck the runners on, go for a run or go for a walk outside. And that kind of turn me turn the urge to gamble into a positive urge. And after about 12 to 18 months, it actually really helped.

[00:51:01]It felt like I didn't really have the urge to gamble. And I had this more of an urge. I wanted to run every day. I wanted to go and walk every day. I still do that to this day. like I'm going to go for a run as soon as I finish this and get out and um and do some stuff today as well. So that's a really good trigger for someone or a trick for someone. You need to just and it doesn't have to be running like I've told people to go and if you enjoy Lego, if you enjoy music, if you enjoy puzzles, go and just do something that for 20 minutes that takes that urge away and over time it'll become so much easier and that urge will slowly drift away into something positive. Yeah.

[00:51:32]Do you know what it was that that you what you were trying to um compensate for in yourself that made you gamble?

[00:51:42]>> Um yeah.

[00:51:42]>> What you were trying to block? What you know? Were you trying to block something?

[00:51:46]>> I had a I had a huge issue with my own self-esteem. I didn't think I was a worthy person and a good person I suppose. And I wanted to build that persona around again within to hide that type of thing. I had a a huge fear of people leaving in my life and that's probably stem from other things in my life when I was younger. So, um I didn't I thought if I ever told anyone about how bad I was traveling or what I was feeling that that person would just go, "Well, you're a degenerate. You're a gambler. I don't have anything to do with you." And that's completely not the case. My family and my partner and my close friends have been amazing, the most supportive people in my life. But I had this fear the whole time that if I ever said anything, they would they would leave my life and I'd just be by myself. And that was a huge contributing factor in a lot of it which I know now with the work I've done with psychologists have gone back and looked at that and and and dug deep into that and that was definitely a huge part of it. Um which was when you're when you're at it you lose all rational thought you don't you don't have that type of thinking pattern when you're trying to get through something. So it's taken to now to to understand that and um yeah it's it's taken a long time to recover from that.

[00:52:49]>> Well Mark thanks very much for joining us today on cricket. It's been great that you could share your story with you. Thanks for being so frank and and open and candid about um about your own experiences. I think that's that's hugely valuable. Cricket's about to undergo >> um a bit of soularching about its future direction and I think these are important things to uh to to have out on the table so that we can so we can give them a rational and independent appraisal. So it's great that you could join us today. No, >> anytime guys. Happy to come whenever you're leaving. So appreciate it.

[00:53:20]Cheers. Thank Thanks Mark. Fantastic.

[00:53:23]And we're back. Maybe we never went away, but we've sort of >> Yeah.

[00:53:28]>> time shifted there. We did an interview and we've come back and we're in that room we were in before.

[00:53:32]>> We've come back.

[00:53:33]>> Wow. Yeah. You got a bit of >> Putin Nikqua salad on your shirt.

[00:53:40]>> Will you be having the Nikqua salad tonight or is it the Putin? You You actually have two dishes you eat at night. That's like a special restaurant for you where you can eat two dishes.

[00:53:49]>> Yeah. When when we wrote when I made my contribution to the to the book, you had to specify what dish you had and I said I have the nis when I don't know how to put an escar.

[00:53:58]>> Yeah.

[00:53:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Usual. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:54:01]>> My usual at the cafe is called a hat.

[00:54:03]>> Is it really? What's a hat?

[00:54:05]>> Well, it was an avocado, tomato, and hummus sandwich, but I flipped it round to make it easier to say. So, I have a hat.

[00:54:13]>> Yeah.

[00:54:14]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:54:15]>> And it's now become known as a hat in their social media special. Yeah.

[00:54:19]>> Not yet. No. No. That's that's another episode of curb your enthusiasm where you get sandwiches named after you at your favorite restaurant. And I don't >> Larry wanted Ted.

[00:54:28]>> Let's not go down the the curb your enthusiasm rabbit hole.

[00:54:32]>> Why not?

[00:54:32]>> Not today anyway. We've got enough content. That's all we've got time for on cricket. It's been great to have you with us. We'll be back again next week.

[00:54:39]But in the meantime, it's goodbye from me.