New Clues Could Lead to Naming Suspect in Infamous Lizzie Borden Cold Case

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]Lizzie Bordon was innocent and we've been looking at the wrong killer for over a century. That is a claim of author Rich Little. And in just a moment, you're going to hear directly from him.

[00:00:15]>> Welcome to the global phenomenon, Surviving the Survivor. Here's your host, Emmy award-winning journalist Joel Waldman.

[00:00:24]>> What's up, STS nation? Welcome to Surviving the Survivor. This is the global phenomenon bringing you the very best guests in all of true crime. And tonight, a special edition of STS. We go back more than 130 years to one of the most infamous murder cases in all of American uh juristprudence history and criminal history. The brutal axe killings inside the home of Andrew Bordon and Abby Bordon in Fall River, Massachusetts. The prime suspect, Lizzy Bordon, who was tried, acquitted, but forever etched into American folklore.

[00:01:10]But, but what if everything we think we know about this case is wrong? Uh that's one of the claims from our guest who is here right now. Uh Rich Little, not to be confused with the Canadian comedic actor Rich Little. This is the downtoearth Rich Little who has been a teacher in Massachusetts for more than 55 years. Um thank you for joining us, Rich. Appreciate you being here. And do me a favor, hold up that book of yours if you don't mind, so people can take a a look at it. And uh it is called Cold Case to Case Closed. Elizabeth Bordon, my story says Lizzie didn't do it. Uh where do people find the book first of all? Uh Rich?

[00:02:00]>> Well, the book is available both on Amazon and it's also uh on eBay. Uh through eBay you can get a personalized copy. It's just a little bit easier to do it that way, but that's where you can get it. H uh it it's an interesting read. So uh everyone go out and check it out. Now uh Rich, you say that the real killer, we're going to dig into this, is someone uh named John Morris, uh Lizz's own uncle. But just for some background before we start to uh pry this open, uh you have to go all the way back to August 4th, 1892.

[00:02:39]Uh there's a double axe murder in broad daylight. The victims, of course, Andrew and Abby Bordon. Uh there appears to be no forced entry. Uh extremely violent, very, very personal killings according to law enforcement. Lizzy is subsequently arrested and tried in 1893.

[00:03:00]She's acquitted in about 90 minutes, and to this day, the case remains officially unsolved. Uh, and for over a century, the debate has never stopped. So, Rich, first and most obvious question, I mean, you're a a teacher, and for full disclosure, um, he's one half of uh the Seth Seth Rosen, how do I pronounce it?

[00:03:24]Rosinski.

[00:03:26]>> Rosinski.

[00:03:27]>> Yes, that's what I thought. So, he's one half of the Seth Rosinski podcast. Um, and a teacher for over 50 years. So, he's an educator. Uh, this is an interesting story, but Rich, the first and obvious most question, what piqued your interest in this case enough to write a book about it?

[00:03:46]>> Well, it starts back probably 30 years ago. I have a daughter and the daughter, Brenda, was enthralled with the Lizzie Bordon case from the time she was in high school.

[00:04:00]And at one time it was my birthday and she said, "Let's go down to Fall River and we'll tour the Lizzy Bordon crime scene house." Uh, which we did. And I had heard of Lizzie Bordon because everybody around here has heard that Lizzie Bordon had an axe and gave her mother 40 wax. And when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.

[00:04:28]And I assumed like so many others that uh she was an axe murderer.

[00:04:34]And we toured the house and it was an interesting tour of a three family I'm sorry three-story house uh which was formally two family that Andrew Wooden purchased and made into a single family with a kind of an unusual floor plan.

[00:04:52]And over time uh I decided to work on a project called the innocence of it all and and I had a co-author up in Canada and her name is Beverly Folstead and she and I worked on cases and it never got published but Lizzie Bordon was one of the cases that we worked on and uh from those cases uh there has been uh several books written and she and and I put together uh this book about Lizzie Bordon. Uh throughout the book, you'll see comments by Lizzie and those were written by Bev. And she and I have never met. Uh we've only talked by phone and by by computer like this. And uh she was the voice of Lizzy throughout the book. H >> how did you how did you connect with this co-author? Well, she and I were on a chat room for authors and she said, "Gee, I always wanted to write a book and I had written a book previously, a uh a fiction book about a a a baseball player and I was looking for another project to work on and she seemed interested in the same type of historical crimes that I was." And uh we put together about 18 different uh crimes that uh occurred both in the United States and in Canada because she lives in Edmonton, Alberta.

[00:06:24]>> And we never got it published, but we did take uh the Lissy Bordon case in particular and uh that's what this book was developed from.

[00:06:36]>> Yeah. So, take us back uh I think it was 1892 uh to Fall River, Massachusetts. Just sort of set the uh scene for us. I mean, what kind of town was Fall River back then? Um who were Andrew and Abby Bordon? I mean, were they known figures in the town? And who was Lizzy to them?

[00:06:58]Uh set it all up for us. Okay. So, if you look at a map of Massachusetts, uh, and especially coastal Massachusetts, uh, in Boston, north of Boston is called the Northshore and south of Boston is called the Southshore. And then you got that arm that hangs out in the water that looks like somebody with a fist, and that's called Cape Cod. And then going further down the coast, you have Cape Cod and of course the islands of Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard. And as you head towards Rhode Island, there's an area that's now called the South Coast.

[00:07:36]And that's primarily Bristol County. And the three major cities in Bristol County were Taton, which is the uh county seat, and New Bedford, which was a whaling community, and then Fall River, which was a textile community.

[00:07:54]>> And these were major cities.

[00:07:57]And Fall River at the time of the crime, 1892, was about 93 to 95,000 people. And that's approximately what the population is today.

[00:08:11]But there were 120 to 125 mills in Fall River. Uh mostly textile of which uh Andrew Bordon was on the board of directors of several of those mills.

[00:08:27]And Andrew Bordon did not come from money. Andrew Bordon was a self-made man. His father was a fish munger. and he got into the furniture business, uh, tables and chairs and couches and coffins and things like that. And that's where he made his money. He got into real estate. He became director of several banks. He was on the board of directors of several mills.

[00:08:58]>> And he married um, and his wife's name was Sarah. Sarah Bordon and they had three daughters. The first was Emma and then they had a second daughter named Alice. And we never hear much of Alice because uh she died as a child when she was approximately 2 years old. And this was not uncommon back in the 1880s uh 1860s uh that uh childhood diseases were prevalent and also often fatal. Then they had a third daughter and her name was Lizzy. Lizzy Andrew Bordon. Her middle name, she was named after her father. And the difference in age between Lizzy and her older sister Emma was approximately n and a half years.

[00:09:53]>> And so several years, two years after Lizzie was born, her mother succumbed to natural causes. uh some type of uh infection. Of course, this is way before the days of antibiotics and things like that. And so here you have Andrew Bordon and two daughters and uh he's a widowerower.

[00:10:18]Uh he remarried two years after the death of his first wife and he married Abby. She became Abby Bordon. She was known as a spinster because she was approximately 37 years old when she married and she had never been married before.

[00:10:35]>> Basically, she was the only mother that Lizzie ever knew.

[00:10:39]>> Lizzie did not remember her.

[00:10:42]>> And and what do we And what do we know?

[00:10:44]So, Andrew and Abby, uh, the father and stepmother to Lizzy Andrew uh, Bordon.

[00:10:50]And that's kind of neat, I think, that she's named after her father, middle name. But what do we know about the family dynamic? Did they get along? A lot of times there's issues with stepmothers and children that they they are resentful. But what do we know about the dynamic between Lizzie, her father, and Abby?

[00:11:11]>> Well, uh, the dynamics between those three seemed to be normal. It might have not been that normal with Emma who was a pre-adolescent about 12 years old when her father remarried and she had probably been the woman of the house until he married Abby.

[00:11:35]And uh there might have been some animosity there, but as far as Lizzy, Lizzie was only three years old and Abby Bordon was really the only mother that she ever knew.

[00:11:50]>> Um I have a I have a a lot of questions for you, but I guess the first one that I'm most interested in, uh you know, you've got to go back like 130 plus years. How did you how did you research this story?

[00:12:04]I mean, did you go to are there archives at the Fall River Public Library? Were you just online? How did you find the research material uh for this? And you wrote this, I think, uh pre- AI. So, uh there you go.

[00:12:22]Yeah, the I started the project uh back in 2011 and put the put the book together between 2012 and 2014 and the book came out pretty did pretty well. But my research was done primarily uh by reading. uh there seemed to be more information to be gathered by reading it and there's several excellent books that were put out uh over the years between the crime and now uh and those served as a source of uh of uh information that that I use uh the actual police records that were available uh fortunately for me somebody had transcribed them from written uh into print. So, those were also available. Um, several visits to the Fall River Historical Society, which has an excellent exhibit on Lizzie Bordon.

[00:13:26]>> And I was able to gather from uh books written by two of the curators down at the Fall River Historical Society who have come out with some epic Lizzy Bordon. There's one called Lizzy Lizzy Bordon parallel lives which uh describes her life and Fall River's life during that time period. So I was able to put the reports together and uh everything all the police reports seemed to be uh regular. Everything seemed to fall in place. Uh and and then I bought a book online and with the book came a set of pictures, a little note and a newspaper and the little note said uh it from the purchase from the uh seller of this book said uh this was in my father's collection. He was a Lizzie Bordon uh follower and he always tries to solve the pro solve the case. And here is his book and here is the picture set that he had. There were actual sets of pictures that were that were shown uh that were sold as a set uh during the trial and after the trial. Kind of a morbid situation. And there was also a newspaper in that group and and the newspaper was the Fall River Herald and it was the original newspaper from August 5th, the day after the murders.

[00:15:00]And there was an article in there by a unknown author, but probably one of the reporters for the Fall River Herald, which described a conversation that a police officer had to check down an alibi of one of the people that was at the h at the house.

[00:15:21]And that person was uh Lizz's uncle, Lizzie and Emma's uncle, John Moss.

[00:15:28]And I read the article by the newspaper reporter and I read the report by the police officer, a guy by the name of William Medley that were taken at the same time and and the two reports did not jive.

[00:15:45]>> It destroyed Uncle John's alibi.

[00:15:49]>> All right, hold that for one second. And that's John Morris, who uh is the person that Rich Little believes actually murdered Andrew and Abby Bordon. But uh so the the murders take place uh correct me if I'm wrong, August 4th, 1892.

[00:16:06]Um what do we know about that day, Rich?

[00:16:10]Uh what how did that day play out? Uh walk us into the crime scene.

[00:16:18]Okay. So, here we are in the Bordon house and there are five people there overnight.

[00:16:26]Uh there's Mr. and Mrs. Bordon, Abby Bordon, and Andrew Bordon who became the victims. There was Lizzie Bordon, the daughter.

[00:16:39]uh Bridget Sullivan who was a domestic servant who worked for the Bordens and an overnight guest who normally did not stay at the Bordon residence but he and Mr. Bordon had business relations and he was there to discuss businessations and that was Uncle John Moss. Now, John Moss was the brother of the deceased Mrs. Sarah Bordon, the first Mrs. Bordon who succumbed to uh to disease uh during the Civil War.

[00:17:19]And he was in uh Iowa and was in the cattle and hos business in Iowa. He was originally from Fall River but moved to Iowa. And he and Andrew Bordon had this arrangement of shipping horses and cattle from Iowa up through Chicago by rail to Fall River where they were offloaded and brought to a farm that was owned by Mr. Bordon. And this is one of Mr. Bordon's enterprises.

[00:17:53]>> Wow.

[00:17:53]>> So Mr. Bordon stayed overnight. Now, the other daughter, Emma, that would be Lucy's sister, had been away staying with friends in a nearby town called Fair Haven.

[00:18:07]A lot of people call it Fair Haven, but here in Massachusetts, with our strange and unusual accents, we we call it Fair Haven.

[00:18:17]>> Interesting.

[00:18:18]>> So, those are the people. There were five people who stayed overnight between the third and the fourth. So, so there's not a lot of possibilities because we know there's five people, but two of them are dead. Um, we don't have to get too gruesome, but um they both died from axe wounds. Uh, I mean, approximately how many wounds and and how did authorities get notified that this had transpired on August 4th of 1892? When did police find out?

[00:18:50]Okay. So, the wounds uh as the poem goes 40 and 41. That is a bit of an overexaggeration.

[00:18:59]Uh Mrs. Bordon was struck initially in the forehead, face to face with her killer, and she suffered approximately 18 blows to the head.

[00:19:13]>> Wow.

[00:19:15]and uh and she was uh the the estimated time of death was just after 9:00 between 9:15 and 9:30. And I'll explain a little bit later just how they determined that. Uh Andrew Bordon uh was murdered approximately an hour and 45 minutes later. So these two attacks did not occur at the same time. They were uh in different periods of time. And uh his autopsy showed that he was struck similarly to the first victim but on the opposite side of the back of the head and uh his wounds are numbered uh 10.

[00:20:03]That's interesting. So, the two murders happen an hour and 45 minutes apart, and there's three other people in the home.

[00:20:15]Um, Rich, what do you attribute that gap in time to?

[00:20:20]>> Well, uh, I can give you a Let me give you a quick and I'm not sure if you can see that.

[00:20:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can see.

[00:20:27]>> This is something that Seth and I did on a podcast where I showed the the the wounds. And these are the wounds of Andrew.

[00:20:35]And this is the side view.

[00:20:37]>> Wow.

[00:20:38]>> And so there were substantial uh trauma uh to the to the back and and the front of the head because he was recliding when it happened. Uh Abby, on the other hand, um hers was a little bit different. However, very very similar done with the same type of implement and uh her side view looks like that.

[00:21:04]So all of those red lines that you see were determined by the uh by the medical examiner to be separate wounds.

[00:21:14]>> Well, but just going back to this because I'm I'm intrigued by this.

[00:21:17]Typically when when two people are murdered, it's you know usually backtoback. I mean, I'm not a criminal expert or criminologist, but what what do you attribute that hour and 45 minute gap to what was going on in that hour and 45 minutes between the murders?

[00:21:35]>> Well, Andrew Bordon had left the house at approximately 9:00 uh for his daily walk down to Fall River Center to visit several of his businesses down there. He visited two of the banks. He also had a construction program uh project going on where a new building was being built which is still there on the historical uh register called the Bordon building and they were uh putting in windows that day. So he traveled downtown and he left the the home at approximately 9:00.

[00:22:13]uh Uncle John Moss who was also there overnight because he had arrived the day before. He had not been staying at the Bordens, but he arrived on the afternoon of the 3 and went out to visit Mr. Bordon's farm in nearby Swansea. That's where the cattle and horses were kept and then came back and they had a business discussion. The rumor is um and this was overheard by by Lizzie when she came into the uh back from a walk that she had taken that uh the discussion became uh heated. Mr. Bordon wanted to get out of the horse and cattle business. Uh they were losing too many animals. Uh it's a long trip from Iowa to uh Massachusetts. you had to send uh what they called cowboys to take care of those animals because the railroad didn't water and feed them when they were shipped like that. You had to send somebody along to take care of them. And it had been a warm summer and they had lost some livestock and Mr. Bordon was starting to question the uh affordability and efficiency of running that operation.

[00:23:36]>> So uh the uh that's why Mr. Moss was there and he was invited to stay overnight. We slept in the second floor guest bedroom and uh he was the second person up in the morning. Bridget Sullivan uh was up first approximately six o'clock. He came down from and she uh her bedroom was on the third floor only accessible by the back stairway. Uh his bedroom where he stayed the night was on the second floor which was only accessible from the front stairway. So she came down the back stairway into the kitchen and started to prepare breakfast. He came down the front stairway. They said they never saw each other in the uh approximately 45 minutes to an hour that they were both on the first floor. Mrs. Bordon came down next, followed by Mr. Bordon. Uh breakfast was served at approximately 9 uh 7:15. Mr. Moss said that was the first time that he saw uh Bridget Sullivan. Bridget Sullivan said that was the first time that she saw Mr. Moss at about4 7. Uh as it approached 9:00, Mr. Moss uh left to go downtown to mail something at the post office, or so he said. Uh when questioned, he could not remember who he sent that postcard to.

[00:25:07]>> And which is odd, right? If you're going to send a postcard, you're going to know, right?

[00:25:13]>> Right. And just after 9:00, that's when Lizzy arose and came down from her bedroom on the second floor. So, she was not there for breakfast. She had cookies and coffee uh at approximately 9:00 and talked with Mrs. Bordon at the time.

[00:25:38]And my theory is that uh Mr. Moss re-entered the house, went back to the room where he stayed overnight. And at that time, Mrs. Bordon was uh in that room uh fixing the bed and tidying up.

[00:25:56]Uh I believe that they had a argument which quickly turned violent.

[00:26:04]And uh we'll have to give away Mr. Morse's profession.

[00:26:10]>> Yeah. because that sort of plays into what what uh what happened by profession. Mr. Morse was a butcher.

[00:26:19]>> He worked at the Davis Meat Market. Now, he came back two years before 1892 from Iowa. Still had the farm out in Iowa.

[00:26:29]Still had people out there tending to the farm working for him. And he worked at the Davis Meat Market in New Bedford.

[00:26:37]and he had this little side gig going with Mr. Mr. Bordon on the farm over in Swansea.

[00:26:43]Um, and that may explain what happened to Mrs. Bordon.

[00:26:50]>> And it sounds like Uncle John Morris was having a and Andrew Bordon at least wasn't necessarily interested in that sort of side business anymore.

[00:27:02]Is that right? Was that >> Well, I think board m excuse me, I'm sorry and let you finish.

[00:27:09]>> No, no, no. I was just curious. I like if there was any it seems I think if I if I heard you correctly, there was some issue where Andrew uh was looking to tamp down the business. So maybe there was some sort of financial motive for the crime where Uncle John Morris was upset that uh that was coming to an end.

[00:27:28]>> That there very well could be. And they'd had a couple of incidents and one involved a hos on the way from uh from Iowa to to Swansea, Mass, gave birth to a fo. And when the train arrived in Fall River and they offloaded it, uh there was somebody there who wanted to buy the FO and uh and paid for the FO, but they were told, "You better pick the FO up in three or four weeks because it's a it's newly born and it needs to be uh nursed by the mother. and so why don't you pick it up at the farm in approximately four to five weeks which the purchaser did and when he came to pick up the horse or pick up the fo pony uh it had developed a limp and he wanted his money back and which he did get his money returned but of course he did not take the fold and they had also had quite a bit bit of um animals passing away on the way between Chicago and uh and Massachusetts because of the warm weather, etc. And I think Mr. Bordon was getting sick of the issues, the trouble, um it wasn't turning the profit that he wanted. Uh he had other projects that he was working on that, uh consumed his time, and I think he wanted to close down the operation. And that's what the discussion was on the 3 of August in the evening.

[00:29:13]>> So, it sounds like there was a potential uh motive here cuz uh his uh Uncle John Morse's uh future earnings could have been um affected by this. But let let's go back to uh the possible um suspects here. Um, I assume Bridget Sullivan uh is ruled out. Uh, for whatever reason, John Morse is at the time ruled out, but uh, how soon after the crime is committed is Lizzie Bordon arrested? And why do they arrest her if you don't think she did it? Well, on the morning of the 4th, that would be a Thursday, uh, after Mr. Morse left and perhaps after he left the second time, uh, he visited relatives about a mile and a quarter from the Bordon house. Uh, and he had a a cousin that lived on Wboset Street and he went to Wboset Street. He went by horsedrawn trolley.

[00:30:31]>> Um, and he used all of this as part of his alibi. He he knew that there were four priests riding on the trolley. He knew that the trolley conductor's number uh was something like 39.

[00:30:47]and he had a lot of information that helped support his alibi. Uh the problem with the alibi is uh if you look at the police report uh officer William Medley interviewed uh Uncle John's cousin Lydia Emmery and said uh did you have a guest here this morning? She said yes. John Moss. He's a relative of mine. And she he said, "Well, what time did he arrive and and what time did he depart?" And she was unsure of the departure time.

[00:31:22]Um, but there's another person that comes involved in this. And this is a doctor Bowen and he was a neighbor of the Bordens. He was the Bordon's family doctor. and he had been called to Wboset Street on that day because there was a niece who was visiting and she was ill and he was out doing house calls and he was notified and he happened to also go to Y Bosset Street and what happened was um she told this information to the to the police officer and the police officer wrote this all down. And with every book I send out, I put in a copy of that police report that was filed by William Medley. And the is the final word on how it was presented in court, >> which gave him an alibi. M >> but soon after the police officer left there was a knock at her door and it was a reporter from the Fall River Herald and he said, "Wasn't that officer Medley was here?" And she said, "Yes." Well, what did he want? What did he say?

[00:32:44]Of course, by this time the the murders were all over town and everybody was talking about it. and she told the police uh the uh reporter uh the story and but back then being in the newspaper was Leah like on social media.

[00:33:02]>> Yeah.

[00:33:03]>> She couldn't stop. She had to tell the reporter more and what she told him was that uh John Moss arrived and and he left and she thought the time was somewhere around 11:30.

[00:33:19]And then she added, "And Dr. Bowen arrived at about the same time."

[00:33:26]And the reporter said, "Did they see each other?" And she said, "No, I don't think so." But uh my cousin was leaving as Dr. Bowen was arriving.

[00:33:39]And this comes in to be very very important because back at the crime scene, uh, Lizzy was the one who discovered her father, >> uh, with his skull bashed in >> on the on the in the sitting room on a set, which is something like a couch.

[00:34:00]>> Mhm.

[00:34:00]>> And she immediately called for Bridget, who was on the third floor, uh, come down.

[00:34:08]something's happened to father. Go get Dr. Bowen, >> who lived directly across the street.

[00:34:15]And so Bridget Sullivan ran across the street, talked to Mr. Bowen's, Dr. Bowen's wife, and she says, "Well, he's out doing house calls." And so she goes back to Lizzy and says, "Uh, he's not available." Uh she and Lizzie says, "Please go find my friend Russ uh Alice Russell and and tell her to come over."

[00:34:41]And with that, the next door neighbor thought that something was going on. Her name was Adelaide Churchill. She's a former uh well, she was the not the farmer, but she was the daughter of the former mayor of Fall River.

[00:34:54]>> And so she came running over. Just at that time, Dr. Bowen returned from his rounds, pulled up in the buggy out in front of his house. His wife came out and said, "Something's gone on over at the boarding house. They they need you over there." And he ran over to the Bordon house with his bag. And they directed him into the sitting room and it was Dr. Bone that pronounced Andrew Bordon deceased.

[00:35:23]Uh he checked his time and it was approximately 11:15.

[00:35:32]>> Wow.

[00:35:33]>> Now, uh Mrs. Churchill, who was the neighbor, ran to get help and she ran across the street. There was a stable and there was a gentleman at the stable and his name was Cunningham.

[00:35:49]and she said something's happened to Mr. Bordon. Um, and she mentioned something about stabbing. Uh, we need to notify the police. And of course, no one, not everyone had a telephone at the time.

[00:36:05]>> Mhm.

[00:36:06]>> Uh, the paint store down at the corner had a telephone and Mr. Cunningham knew that. So, he ran down uh to the paint store, went inside, and asked if he could use the phone, and the owner said, "Sure." And guess who he called?

[00:36:28]>> Who does he call?

[00:36:31]>> You You would think he would call the police, but he was a wannabe reporter. He was actually a newspaper distributor. Mhm.

[00:36:42]>> So before he called the police, he called the three newspapers, the three daily newspapers in Fall River.

[00:36:48]>> Oh boy.

[00:36:49]>> And then he called the police department.

[00:36:52]>> And of all days to have a event like this, the police department was short-handed because many of them were on their annual excursion by steamer. Now Fall River is a saltwater port. It's inland a bit, but it is a saltwater port.

[00:37:11]>> And you can leave Fall River by steamer.

[00:37:13]And the annual police excursion had gone to Rocky Point, Rhode Island, and so he was he was under manned.

[00:37:21]>> Oh boy.

[00:37:22]>> And he sent he sent the booking officer to investigate.

[00:37:26]>> Wow. Um I I want people to be able to read the book. This is fascinating. So I want to kind of skip ahead here. So, she's Lizzie is obviously the one arrested for this crime. How long after the murders does the trial take place? And why is she acquitted in such record? I mean, seems like a a very fast amount of time, 90 minutes she's acquitted.

[00:37:55]Well, on on the day of the murders, uh the police officer who was the first to arrive was at 11:25. And before he went in the door, he checked his clock because that's what police officers do.

[00:38:09]And so, and who greeted him at the door?

[00:38:13]Dr. Bowen. So, we know Dr. Bowen is at the crime scene. We know that the police officer is at the crime scene. And it is 11:25.

[00:38:23]They rally the police. The police arrive. Uh, a crowd arrives. Uh, pedestrians are wandering all over the place looking in windows. They're walking inside the barn, which is kind of important because that's where Lizz's alibi uh exists. And by by 11 by 12:00, the police officer had arrived. um for several reasons. Uh they suspected Lizzy and number one she was 32 years old. She was unmarried. She was a spinster.

[00:39:02]>> How old were How old was the father and stepmother at this point?

[00:39:05]>> Now the father was about a month shy of his 70th birthday.

[00:39:10]>> Wow.

[00:39:10]>> And Mrs. Bordon Abby was approximately 63 years old.

[00:39:18]Uh, and we say approximately because we're not really sure of her date of birth or or her exact date of birth. So, she was 63 years old and 70 is a back then is a pretty uh substantial lifespan.

[00:39:32]>> Yes. And uh he was in good shape. He was approximately just about six foot tall and uh uh walked every day. He said he had no vices. He did not smoke. He did not drink. However, when they did the autopsy, they found a can of tobacco in his pocket and $67.50, which does not sound like a lot of money today, but back then was over $2,000 in value.

[00:40:00]>> Wow.

[00:40:00]>> So, he was carrying a little bit of money. He was extremely wellto-do. His uh his estate was assessed to be more than $500,000, and that was in 1892 money. So that would be approximately 15 to$18 million in today's money.

[00:40:18]>> Wow.

[00:40:19]>> So, uh, soon after noon time, uh, the police, uh, asked Lizzy, "Would you like us to come back and talk to you tomorrow? This has been a very upsetting day." And she said, "No, no, no. I'll answer your questions."

[00:40:36]And they thought that that was suspicious that she would answer the questions. Uh so soon after that she was the number one suspect and all others all other possible suspects and uh basically that would be only two people Bridget and Uncle John because they were at the premises. Um they became prosecution witnesses >> and they did not ask them any tough questions after that. H uh and again from the point of arrest uh how how how much time elapses before day one of the trial?

[00:41:19]>> Okay. So uh the the deaths occurred on the 4th. The funeral occurred on the 6th uh by invitation only. The wake of course was at the home. They were open caskets and soon after that there was an inquiry. That was the only time that Lizzie testified.

[00:41:43]Um we do know that she was under the uh doctor's care. That would be Dr. Bowen.

[00:41:50]And he had prescribed a seditive to calm her nerves. And the sedative that they prescribed was morphine. So, we know when we had the inquiry she was under the uh under morphine control or being taken morphine and that was the only time that she ever testified and she was uh in the inquiry she was not allowed to have an attorney and that's an interesting side story that we can talk about sometime. Uh that was the judge's prerogative not to allow her to have an attorney at the inquiry. That is not the case now. Uh >> yeah, and and there was another case in 1969 involving Chapquitic Island and that's when that rule was changed. Um and uh so she was the suspect and was uh was held at the Fall River Jail. They had no accommodations for women. And when the preliminary hearing was held, uh, she was bound over to, uh, the House of Correction and Jail, uh, in in Taton, Mass. And, and she spent, uh, from the time of the crime uh, several days after the crime until her trial. And the trial was in June of the following year.

[00:43:15]>> And how many days uh, does a trial last?

[00:43:19]The trial lasted approximately 20 days, which was a long trial because uh the they they worked six days a week back then uh partial Saturday. They they recessed early on Saturday. The other days they they re reess somewhere between four and five o'clock. So they were working six days a week. And uh after numerous numbers of witnesses uh for both sides um they uh charged the jury and an allmale jury. And the reason that it was an allmale jury was because we didn't allow women to be jury members in 1892.

[00:44:04]>> Interesting. Uh was it a 12person jury panel? It was a 12p person jury uh trial and >> so they go to deliberate after this 20 days but she is acquitted in literally an hour and a half. Is that right?

[00:44:21]>> That's right. 90 minutes.

[00:44:23]>> What what what do you attribute such a fast acquitt to on a double axe murder?

[00:44:30]>> Uh several reasons. uh uh she had the dream team as far as attorneys go. You hear about cases where um like OJ had the dream team. Well, >> she had she had the Johnny Cochran of 1892.

[00:44:47]>> Yes. And and his name was Judge Robinson and he was formerly governor of Massachusetts.

[00:44:54]>> Wow. and he also was the guy who appointed two of the three judges that were on the bench at her trial. I'm not sure that that had anything to do with it, but he was the lead prosecutor. She had an attorney named Jennings who was her father's attorney and and he uh he had the sense right off the bat that the uh that the authorities had already predecided who was guilty in this crime.

[00:45:25]and he was the one that said, "You should get a more powerful attorney than I," and advised her to uh to get uh to get Judge Robinson. And it is rumored that that she uh her and her sister Emma paid $25,000 in 1892 money uh for Judge Robinson to represent her. H um during the buildup to the trial, the trial, what happens?

[00:45:59]Where where does Uncle John uh I I assume they rule out very quickly the housekeeper, but where what what does Uncle John do in the uh you know, in the in the days sort of leading up to the trial and the trial, does he start does he take a low profile at that point?

[00:46:16]Well, very uh he had to stay for uh the inquiry because he was on the on the list for those to speak at the inquiry.

[00:46:26]I don't want to say witnesses because they're not witnesses. An inquiry is just to determine whether a crime had occurred. Uh the preliminary hearing, he was a witness. That was held the end of August. Uh he was in Massachusetts for the grand jury hearing which was around Thanksgiving, the end of November.

[00:46:47]And at the grand jury, uh, the grand jury had trouble deciding whether or not there was enough evidence to bring Lizzie to court. And they brought in at the very end her best friend, Alice Russell. And Alice testified that she saw Lizzie burn a dress, which was supposedly paint covered >> um on the Sunday following the crime.

[00:47:15]and she put it because back then you had a stove in the kitchen and you kept it going mo most of the time because that's what you did your cooking on. And she had this dress that had paint stains on it. Um the police had searched the house uh at that time the police had searched the house four times and they had taken out every emptied every closet. They looked in every uh possible way for any blood uh blood on clothing. Uh they found one drop of blood on bottom of one dress uh which they attributed to other factors not to to the crime.

[00:48:03]So, uh, with that Alice Russell testimony to the grand jury, the grand jury found just cause to bring her to trial for an indictment.

[00:48:13]>> Well, um, but what what do you I mean, you so you attribute the uh the dream team, so it was a good uh legal team.

[00:48:23]Um, let me ask you this. What how big was this case at the time uh nationally? Um obviously it was preocial media, pre you know uh this was the age of newspapers pre pre-broadcast news.

[00:48:44]How big was this case? I mean did people in Los Angeles know about this at the time?

[00:48:50]>> Of course. Uh at the time there was telegraph. Uh there were reporters as far away from New York uh for all the major newspapers uh in the Boston area and the place was packed. Uh it was a circus. Uh people jamming to get in. Uh they used the skulls as and I'll show you one here.

[00:49:24]Yeah, >> this is a picture of one and a picture of the other. They use the actual skulls as >> um as part of the evidence.

[00:49:35]>> Wow.

[00:49:36]>> Which means that the skulls were separated from the bodies at the time of internment and they were interned at a later date after the trial.

[00:49:46]>> Wow. Um >> so it it was a show.

[00:49:50]>> Yeah. So the house is still there. You started this off by saying your daughter is fascinated. Um are they buried there?

[00:49:56]Uh to this >> uh the Abby and and Andrew are buried in Oak Grove Cemetery at the Bordon lot. Uh >> Emma, that would be the sister.

[00:50:09]>> Yeah.

[00:50:10]>> Uh she is also buried there as is Lizzy.

[00:50:14]Now Lizzy legally changed her name to Liz Beth.

[00:50:18]>> Yeah. I was going to ask you, so post a quiddle, what happens to Lizzie Bordon?

[00:50:24]>> Well, she goes back to 92nd Street, the scene of the crime. And uh within 6 months after that, her sister and she moved to French Street, which is upscale in the hill section of Fall River, uh at a fancy house, which uh which Lizzie called Mapleroft.

[00:50:49]And that house is also still there. And so uh and they lived together in that house until 1905.

[00:51:00]uh for some reason or another, they had a falling out in 1905. There's all kinds of speculation why. Uh some believe that uh that Emma finally came to the conclusion that Lizzie was responsible.

[00:51:14]Others think that Emma did not like Lizz's friends. Lizzy uh Lizzie enjoyed the theater and she invited actors and uh they would have gettogethers at her house at Mapleroft and uh actors at that uh actors at that time were not held in the best light. Um she was very friendly with a woman by the name of Nance O'Neal who was a big um silent film actress uh who later became an actress in uh in sound films.

[00:51:56]And uh her and Lizzy had a mutual interest in animal rights. And uh and and Emma moved out in 1905, went to Rhode Island, finally wound up in New Market, uh New Hampshire, and interestingly enough, uh they passed away within uh 8 days of each other, and they were nine and a half years in age apart.

[00:52:23]>> Wow. Uh Lizzie passed away first from uh complications of gallbladder surgery and she was approximately 66 at the time and uh uh Emma who was up in Newark at New Hampshire fell broke her hip and of course back then breaking the hip was almost like a death sentence you know pneumonia set in and things like that.

[00:52:47]So they passed away within uh within about eight days of each other >> and they are both buried at Oak Grove Cemetery uh which is probably about uh a half 3/4 to a mile away from the Bordon home.

[00:53:04]>> Now you believe that it was Uncle John.

[00:53:07]Um what happens to him after the trial?

[00:53:12]Well, um, after the grand jury, and he testified at the grand jury, after the grand jury, he went back to Iowa >> and then he came east again for the trial in uh in uh June. And interestingly enough, um, and and he was coming back and forth. He he lived near New Bedford and the trial was held in New Bedford because that's where Superior Court was located. The trial was not in Fall River. The trial was in New Bedford, which is approximately 15 to 18 miles away. And uh when he at the end of the trial went down to pick up his witness fee because they would pay witnesses a small token fee to come in and they said, "Well, where did you travel from to get there?" and they they knew that he was staying in Westport, which is approximately seven miles from New Bedford. And he said, "Well, I came from Iowa." And they said, "Well, we're not going to pay you to come from Iowa." So, he tried to he tried to get a witness fee based on mileage.

[00:54:21]Uh after he got his witness fee, he left Fall River. Uh never to be seen again in Fall River.

[00:54:29]Do we know how old he was when he passed or anything?

[00:54:32]>> Uh yeah, he was uh 79 years old when he was passed. He was 59 years old when the murders occurred.

[00:54:38]>> Well, another long life relatively back then. So, uh going full circle, you know, you said what what brought you into this case? Uh your daughter, I believe her name is Brenda. Um, what was Brenda's reaction to you writing this book and getting it published and all the work you did on it?

[00:54:58]>> Uh, she's absolutely thrilled. dedicated to to her. And uh it was uh it was a revelation first of all that the book uh that the book did so well and that there was so much interest about the case and and the book was published a while back and then uh when uh when Seth uh asked me and and Seth and I work at the same uh same high school I as a teacher and he works in the TV radio production >> over there. Um, I was asked to come on a podcast and talk about my Lizzie Bordon book and we could not believe the response uh both to our podcast and to the book.

[00:55:46]There was a resurgence of the book.

[00:55:48]There were had to be reprints made of the book and it's taken on a whole new life of its own since uh since we started doing the podcast. And that'll be just about a year uh on the beginning of May.

[00:56:02]>> Yeah. And the the podcast is the Seth Rosinski show, which I won't even try to spell, but if you put in Seth Roc podcast, it'll come up. Um my final question, Rich, why are we still talking about this 130 years later? Why did your video uh your podcast go viral on YouTube? What What's happening?

[00:56:26]Well, uh, basically, uh, there are two sides of the fence.

[00:56:32]Those who believe that she did not do it, that she could not do it, that the facts don't fit, and then those who absolutely are convinced that she's guilty.

[00:56:48]And those people are, they're still arguing about it. And when I go out on a speaking event and and speak to a library group or something like that, uh there are people who absolutely are convinced she had to do it. They just want to believe. And I think that's a lot with a lot of cases. People uh can't uh and they don't want to accept evidence that changes their mind.

[00:57:23]Um, I I think the facts speak for themselves. I think that the authorities, as they often do, rush to judgment.

[00:57:33]And I I think that Lizzie uh she was found innocent in the court of law, but in the court of public opinion, it was a split decision.

[00:57:46]>> Interesting. Well, uh, you just listened to an hour of, uh, Rich Little, uh, and his book that he's co-authored, uh, titled Cold Case to Case Close. Cold Case to Case Close, Elizabeth Bordon.

[00:58:02]That is the book. You're looking at it.

[00:58:04]>> Um, and, uh, Rich says, "Lizzy didn't do it." So, cold case to case close, Elizabeth Bordon. My story says Lizzy didn't do it. Available on Amazon uh and anywhere books are sold. Uh that is the famous photo of uh Lizzie Bordon. Uh interesting. Um so interesting. Uh Massachusetts has unbelievable history.

[00:58:33]I I had the uh good fortune of going to college up there. My final final question to you, Rich, and then your final thoughts. Uh what keeps you teaching after 55 plus years and your final thoughts?

[00:58:47]>> Uh pro probably insanity.

[00:58:50]Uh other than the fact that u uh I absolutely love it. It's uh I I have the best job in the world. I'm the grandfather to about 550 uh students. Um I think it's good for them. uh a lot of a lot of 17 18 year olds uh do not get to react with people who are classified as elderly and I I when we chatted once before I said that I I hate that word because elderly uh kind of gives you the stigma that uh well out to pasture and that's not the case and you you proved that case with Karm. Uh Karm is uh >> Karm is in the same age bracket as I am and uh we're we're active and we we have an opinion and we're able to express that >> and uh kudos to you at 100%. You know I I see this with my mom's friends not my mom but this a whole other topic for a whole other time but once you reach a certain age you're kind of marginalized by society. It should not be the case.

[01:00:08]You see Rich Little writing books, still teaching. Karm hosting a podcast. So, uh, your 80s, uh, the new 50s, maybe.

[01:00:18]Rich Little, keep at it. Um, it's awesome to meet you and Seth. Again, Seth's podcast is a Seth Rosinski show, which Rich co-host with him. and Rich's book, uh, once again, Rich Little, uh, like the Canadian, uh, comic, cold case to case closed, Elizabeth Bordon, my story says Lizzy didn't do it. On that note, love you, America. Love you, Fall River, Massachusetts, the Southshore of Boston, Massachusetts. I can't do the accent. And, uh, justice here uh, for uh, Andrew and, uh, Abby Bordon. uh they are the victims in this case and uh who knows maybe one day we will have 100% definitive answer but for now uh that was the story of Lizzie Bordon and uh Rich stick around one quick second