The Cult of Charity Scams

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[00:00:45]This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. I am a longtime Squarespace user. I love updating. Sounds like a cult.com makes me feel like a web developer, even though I'm literally not. And you can feel that way, too, thanks to Squarespace's incredible features, including their design intelligence. Squarespace payments also makes it super easy to manage your payments all in one place. And of course, Squarespace has barnone SEO tools. Every Squarespace website is optimized with metadescriptions, an automated site map, and more so that you show up more often to more people when they search. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. When we'd all travel on the road together, whenever anybody would feel tired, they'd be like, "Oh, go get your butt shot." And everybody would go get a vitamin B12 shot in the butt at a workplace. [laughter] >> That is very weird. Which I will say, I love a good butt shot, but on a work trip, I don't know.

[00:01:58]>> It's a little culty.

[00:01:59]>> It's definitely unusual.

[00:02:01]>> This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modernday cults we all follow. I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. and I'm Imaneri Kia, the author of Female Fantasy, the most famous girl in the world, and 100 other Other Girls. Every week on the show, we dissect the cults that run our lives.

[00:02:22]Whether it's our obsession with Pantone's color of the year or the niche fanfic groups [music] online, we're always trying to figure out >> this group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

[00:02:42]And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the [ __ ] out.

[00:02:51]>> After all, there are so many different ways to be culty. [music] And really, a lot of them are pretty harmless and not all consuming. Well, except for maybe [music] the time we've spent thinking about Shane and Ilia at the cabin. And by we, I mean me. But there are some that rewire your brain entirely and make you question what's real and what isn't.

[00:03:13]Like Qanon.

[00:03:14]>> Today we're diving into a world known for pulling at your heartstrings and making you want to open your wallet >> in the arms of the angel.

[00:03:26]>> Great. Now they're going to put that in the intro. Awake from here.

[00:03:29]>> And we got And then the dogs are dying. Yeah. and they're like and they got flies flying all over them. Okay, her mom's crying.

[00:03:39]>> Okay, we've got that song playing in the background because we're talking about the cult of charity scams. To be clear, we're against any animal cruelty, but also against people manipulating emotions to get you to donate for a sometimes questionable cause. So, talking about charity scams, like do you remember the big like charity scams boom of the '9s? I remember the gossip amongst especially my like family friends, but I personally wasn't directly involved in any big charity scams. It's not really part of my lore.

[00:04:14]So, I wouldn't necessarily say that charity scams are a cult that I am a card carrying member of. What is your relationship to the cult of charity scams? I think it's just the memory of all the sad commercials. Do you remember by any chance the United Way scandal of the '90s?

[00:04:35]>> No. Tell me about this.

[00:04:37]>> So, they had all these commercials. I'm pretty sure they had billboards. I don't know if this is like a Mandela effect. I vaguely remember this, but I do know that it was everywhere. And they had workplace donation drives and like partnerships with major companies. And they were running PSAs. It was one of those organizations like you just trusted. and the head of it, William something was using the donated money for like personal stuff. It was like luxury travel gifts funding his lifestyle and this scandal shook everyone's trust in bigname charities.

[00:05:14]So in my family, I just remember we were always skeptical of the things that were on TV cuz people could just be like jacking your wallets and stuff.

[00:05:22]>> I didn't realize that this was like the Anna Delvi of charity scandals. I've learned to just never trust anything I see advertised on television or take it at face value, but this is reaffirming that. Thank you very much. Wait, can you tell me a little bit just about the history of charity scams because I think maybe this is something that I have very fragmented memories of. Okay, [music] so professional charities as we know today have been around since the mid700s.

[00:05:56]People have probably had scammy charities for just as long. Charities were mainly run through religious organizations before that. During the Enlightenment era, philanthropic and charitable groups started popping up.

[00:06:09]Charities were historically about helping workingclass people in horrible conditions be uplifted. And then according to the Smithsonian magazine in the late 1800s in America, philanthropy was seen as a way for women to influence public life. Though the work may look apolitical, it shaped the progress of the country like charities focused on racial equality and women's rights etc. Some charities and philanthropic organizations can also deepen inequalities and have scammy premises to begin with. And charity scams are on the rise.

[00:06:48]>> There are so many different examples of charity scams out there. I'm [music] shocked to learn this. So, when natural disasters hit, officials often warn about an uptick in scams, which is so [ __ ] up. Like, oh god, people are struggling to find shelter and food and their loved ones. Now would be a great time to rip them off. In 2006, there were hundreds of FBI investigations into fraud related to Hurricane Katrina. It was a big effort by officials to track down all the scams going on after the disaster. And according [music] to FBI, one con artist claimed that he was a pilot and had delivered relief supplies to the victims of the hurricane. In another case, residents in Portland claimed that they were victims of the hurricane just to get government relief money. The holidays and other big events like CO 19 are rife with charity scams.

[00:07:45]The internet has helped charity scams to explode, especially with the popularization of GoFundMe. The charitable website is rife with scams of people claiming to have ailments and financial problems. Oh my god, people are using GoFundMe to grift hundreds of dollars off their loved ones. It's so [ __ ] up. And you know what? the GoFundMe thing. It's so sad because what you're describing like with with the whole internet like once a story goes viral. There is no type of like vetting process with GoFundMe. Anyone can start a GoFundMe website. So, a lot of the times these stories go viral and you're like, "Oh my god, I want to give money to this one thing." And you could be giving your money to any old Tom, Dick, and Harry. It's horrible. Oh my god, Chelsea. I started this episode by telling you that I'm not a card carrying member of the cult of charity scams, but I am now realizing that I have donated to so many GoFundMes that followers of mine on Instagram have DM'd me about saying it was like their loved one or their neighbor, and I have very rarely vetted the story because I have just immediately felt moved to action. So, this might be the quickest I've ever switched up on being a member of a cult in my life, but there we go.

[00:09:00]>> Yeah, Iman, you got to vet the story.

[00:09:02]You never know.

[00:09:02]>> I'm sorry. I have a big heart and I'm really bad at managing my money. Okay.

[00:09:07]I'm sorry that I'm an empathetic person who wants to feel connected to my parasocial friends on the internet. One high-profile example of someone who got caught is a New Jersey couple who made a fundraiser for a homeless veteran.

[00:09:22]According to NBC News, the couple made their GoFundMe account after the woman told a heartwarming story of a homeless man using his last $20 to fill up her tank of gas. 14,000 people donated and the couple spent more than $400,000 of the money that they raised. This is breaking my heart. There are also organizations that just pretend to be helping others, but really aren't. They seem like legit organizations helping a noble cause, but then they end up being frauds. And one of the biggest cases of charity fraud in the US was of four sham cancer charities. Everyone is going to hell. They were in operation from the 1980s to 2015 when the Federal Trade Commission finally shut them down. And according to court documents, between 2008 and 2012, the scammers were able to raise 187 million from donors. The family who ran the scam, the Reynolds, used that money for cars, luxury cruises, tuition, events, you name it.

[00:10:27]So, so raggedy. And just like you said, hell, hell, hell, baby, with gasoline draws. So, I think I vaguely remember the first one that you mentioned with the homeless man giving his last $20.

[00:10:42]FIRST OF ALL, WHAT KIND OF person are you to take $20 from a homeless man to fill up your gas tank? This is so crazy to me because leaders of the cult of charity scams are preying on people's desire for connectivity and to feel like they're a part of a community and a village showing up for one another.

[00:11:05]They're honestly taking money away from people in need who could be the subject of those donations. There are so many different levels to the way that this is systemically oppressing people who could be benefiting. And also if you fall prey to the cult of charity scams, you might then become really skeptical about donating or giving quote unquote handouts to other people and it may alter your ability to trust others and perform empathy in everyday life.

[00:11:33]>> Absolutely. It's emotional manipulation.

[00:11:36]And just like cults, charity scams prey on your good intentions. If you're not willing to help someone battling cancer, then you're a bad person. The especially scammy ones will make you act fast and impulsively on the emotions you're feeling. They'll make you feel bad for vetting. So, Iman, don't be hard on yourself because THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE BUILT TO DO. They don't want you to vet the information. Obviously, they'll just fabricate stories sometimes. At first, it's just $1, then it's another until you've given more than you can afford.

[00:12:11]Talk about sunk costs. Much like a cult, leaders of these kind of charities can be charismatic and encouraging the cult of personality. There's a big reliance on trust. One example of charities getting scammed themselves is the foundation of new era philanthropy. It was run by a Christian businessman named John Bennett who ran a massive Ponzi scheme that prayed on other charity organizations in the Philly area. In the 1990s, he was able to pray on charities like the Boy Scouts of America. Shame, shame on you, John. Nature Conservancy and a bunch of universities. He told people he'd doubled their money through an anonymous donor, but really it was all a scam. In total, he got more than 500 million according to a government report. This is so wild to me because in the world of charity scams, any random pedestrian on the street is able to become their own cult leader.

[00:13:18]Essentially using people's empathy, guilt, human emotion, desire to connect against them. And if you think about it, using jargon that they then are scared to look further into or learn more about to make them feel like they have no choice but to donate. And also like the barrier to entry is so low because you just have to make a transfer or click a button and then never think about it again that joining has never been easier. The cost is honestly how much you're able to or willing to give. And how many times have I, not to keep bringing this back to myself, like donated to a GoFundMe and the entire bio is full of medical jargon that I don't understand and have never known someone to go through a similar journey. And I dismiss it as, you know, me not knowing anything about the field of medicine and think to myself, I am so lucky. I am so privileged. I am healthy. I need to go out of my way to make sure that I can give back. And ultimately, I never think to myself that I could be susceptible to someone who is starting a all powerful cult. No. And through you talking, I don't know if you realized it, but you hit on all the core like tenets of what a cult even is. Because everything that you're describing, the charismatic authority, the person that can create these GoFundMes or that start these charity scam organizations are their own cult leader. The emotional manipulation, the storytelling that they're able to tell you to say, "This is the bad thing that's happening and we need your money ASAP. We need your money now." the information control. You mentioned not having all the jargon, but that is by design. These people put out all this information that the normal person wouldn't necessarily have all that information, but that is to again like encourage you like, oh my god, you need to send money to help this specific cause. And then also like the inroup morality, if you do not send this money, you are a bad person. It's sad and it sucks because people who have empathy, like you're saying, can definitely start to form a distrust if they fall victim to these sorts of things.

[00:15:42]>> And I wonder what the exit cost then would be because ultimately a lot of people who donate to charities as a one-off have already chosen their overall cost. But have you ever tried, Chelsea, to cancel a recurring donation?

[00:15:56]Do you know how difficult that is?

[00:15:58]>> It's very difficult. I liken it to like trying to cancel a Purple People Leaders aka Planet Fitness membership. When I tell you you have to sorry threaten their life for them to get you out [laughter] of Purple People eaters just like reoccurring donations. It's so hard for you to stop subscribing. It's crazy.

[00:16:21]In the year 2026, if you want to cancel a recurring donation, cancel your gym membership or switch providers from Verizon to Mint Mobile. And by the way, you definitely should because Mint Mobile is incredible. Be prepared to give up your firstborn child because that is the only way that you are getting your money back.

[00:16:44]>> Absolutely.

[00:16:45]>> Speaking of which, we are so excited to get into today's interview. Here to join us is Molly Burke. Molly lost her vision as a child and now she's an advocate for the blind community and preaches inclusivity and self-empowerment to her millions of online followers. Molly's memoir, Unseen, is coming out on September 23rd. She doesn't just have an incredible personal story. She's also found herself working for a scammy charity that she had to untangle herself from. And before jumping into our interview, we just wanted to give a quick disclaimer that because of legal reasons, our guest Molly is not able to share exact names of the people that belong to the organization [music] or the name of the organization itself. But we are still going to be diving deep into the tea. [music] The first time I ever heard about Built, my very first reaction was, "How did this not exist sooner?" Becoming a Built member means earning points on every single housing payment. Rent, mortgage, doesn't matter. You're paying anyway, so you might as well get rewarded for it.

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[00:18:40]Download the Built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/cult.

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[00:20:11]Molly, welcome to Sounds Like a Cult.

[00:20:14]Could you please introduce yourself for our listeners? Thank you so much for having me. Hello, I am Molly Burke. I am a social media content creator, motivational speaker, and recent best-selling author. And I, in my memoir, Unseen, talk a lot about an organization that was giving cults in many ways. Definitely. A lot of people said to me, you know, you're in a cult, right? And I was like, no, I'm not. And then looking back, I'm like, oh, definitely like cult adjacent. And it just gave me like a lot of perspective that I'd love to talk about with you guys today. Okay. So, you say that it was giving cult, but I'd love if you could explain your relationship to said cult a little bit. How did you find yourself involved in a charity scam?

[00:21:02]>> Well, we kind of have to go way back.

[00:21:04]When I was four years old, I was diagnosed with a rare genetic eye disease called retinitis pigmentotosa.

[00:21:10]And at the time, my parents were told that I was going to go blind and they didn't know when that day would be. I was going to deal with progressive vision loss. My vision might last into my 60s. It might last until my 30s. They didn't know. And so my whole childhood, I was kind of preparing for my eventual vision loss. But I always say that while yes, I could prepare by doing things like learning Braille and learning how to use a white cane, there's no emotionally preparing. And the way I kind of can relate it, which is a bit morbid, so prepare yourselves, but it's the kind of best comparison I can give, is that we all know that more likely than not, our parents will pass before we do. But we don't pregrieve. We do not emotionally prepare for the hole that will be left in our lives when they go.

[00:21:51]That is only something you can do when you're faced with that reality. And it's the same for me with my vision loss. So at 14 years old, I lost the majority of my vision, much younger and faster than the doctors had anticipated. I spiraled into a very deep depression. I was suicidal and I at the same time lost all of my friends. Became severely bullied and was looking for purpose. I was looking for a sense of direction and community. And I think this is how many people find themselves in situations like I was where I spent so many years after my vision loss asking why me? And I was trying to fill that why me with purpose. And I felt like the answer to why me is well, if I can do something good with my story. If I can help other people with what I've been through, then what I've been through isn't all for nothing. And at that same time of looking for purpose, I was looking for a community that accepted me and made me feel a part of something because I had lost all of my friends. And I'm a naturally very extroverted, bubbly person. So it was very hard socially to feel like an outsider. And at 18 years old, I was getting ready to graduate high school and I was looking around at colleges and universities and nothing really felt like it fit what I wanted to do with my life. I wanted to be a motivational speaker to live that purpose part of my journey. And for my 18th birthday, I ended up being given tickets to go see this motivational speaker. And I was enraptured with him.

[00:23:15]I was so inspired. And at the end, I asked him for advice on how to enter the motivational speaking industry. And after giving like a very fluffy answer on stage, he ran over to me after getting off stage and gave me his business card and told me to reach out.

[00:23:30]And that's kind of how the whole journey began.

[00:23:33]>> Wow. And this is a tactic that a lot of cults actually use. They'll advertise themselves as altruistic, helping people to find community and purpose, but they're masking much more nefarious means. Absolutely.

[00:23:46]>> Molly, this program that you joined and you became a part of, can you give me some like real life examples of how it actually mirrors a cult?

[00:23:56]>> So, first off, I think it was very much like looking for vulnerability, which I had. And once I kind of was given this opportunity, like everything was sold to me like I was so special to get this.

[00:24:08]Nobody gets this. When I first reached out, they basically were like, "Oh, you can't apply for this job. We have to find you." And I was like, "Oh, okay." I wasn't really trying to apply for a job.

[00:24:18]I was genuinely just reaching out for advice. And then suddenly a week or two later, I get a phone call and they're like, "You know what? We'd like to bring you in for a meeting." And it was like I had already gotten this rejection. So to then get this like, "Oh, we are interested. You're very special." The phone call was all like, "You're so amazing. We saw your resume. We took a second look. You seem like a great fit.

[00:24:37]We'd love to have you in." And then when I went in for the meeting, it was, "Oh, well, if you pass this, maybe you'll get to meet this guy who runs the organization." And then I get this follow-up that's like, "He'd like to meet you." And he doesn't meet any. He's a very busy man. So, it's like all this like pose is very like this is so special. You're kind of like the chosen one and everybody wants this, but you're the one who we're giving this to. And when I had my first quote job interview, which I had not realized was a job interview, because again, I didn't apply for a job. I literally sent my resume and my initial outreach was like, "Hey, I would just like feedback on how I can enter the motivational speaking industry. This is my background so you have an understanding of where I'm at so you can better recommend my next steps."

[00:25:21]I literally was never reaching out for a job. So then when they said, "Oh, he wants to meet you." I was a fan girl. I was so excited because another way in which this mirrors cultlike behavior is in the way in which it's kind of like you would get indoctrinated. They had clubs in schools as young as like grade 1's. So you would grow up in the club learning about their ideology, learning about their story and their history and fundraising for them. So majority of their employees were fresh out of high school or fresh out of college and had gone to their school club their whole lives. So their entire life they were like a fan of this organization and that was like the dream person for them to hire. And so when I showed up to meet this guy who was running everything, I was literally wearing one of their organizations t-shirts with her slogan across my chest cuz I was like a fan. I was 18 years old in high school. I brought my parents with me to meet him cuz I was like, "Oh, this is so cool."

[00:26:17]And it was very evident pretty quickly that this was a job interview. He basically sat down and the way I explained it, it was like he was like firing a gun. It was just go go go question question. No time to think, no time to breathe. He literally said, "Give me your elevator pitch. who are you and why should I care? I didn't even know the term elevator pitch. I was like, what are you talking about?

[00:26:35][laughter] And at the end of this like brief exchange, he was like, okay, I'd like to hire you. I'd like to give you an assistant. I'd like to give you your own apartment. I want you to start in September. And I was like, well, I still have one semester of school to finish in the fall. And he was like, we'll get it sorted. Don't worry. And it was very much like I had to make very quick decisions. It wasn't like I had a lot of time to think. And it was kind of positioned as well, the longer you think, the longer we'll have to find somebody else kind of vibes. That was the impression that I was given.

[00:27:01]>> Wow. You know what's so interesting you're describing is that same method that's used in a lot of cultlike structures, the promise of something else. The kind of like dangling the carrot of initially it's like you got the rejection at first and then they come back and they're like, "Oh, well, you can take a meeting with this person." And also this sense of urgency, right? this this idea that a decision has to be made right now or else we'll go in a different direction and we see it in a lot of cultlike structures and what you described is just the way that they are able to indoctrinate people just as you said. What do you think in your opinion was the cultiest thing about this group? O you know once you were in the whole training was just learning about the founders and learning about the organization and the core principles and they had phrases that they lived by that were posted on the walls and it very much like took up every aspect of your life. For example, they had staff housing so I lived in housing that they provided and so did many of my co-workers. I didn't have a roommate because of my disability. They let me have my own apartment, but many of the people lived with their co-workers and the properties were all around the office. So, all the properties were within a few blocks walking distance to the office. So, everybody's like living together, working together. You're wearing the company clothing and jewelry. You're reading the company's books. You're going on company vacations because they would sell trips overseas to the countries that they worked in and served. And so they would do staff trips where you'd get a discounted rate to go on the trip. And majority of the staff were, like I said, fresh out of university, fresh out of high school, like very young. And the salaries we received in exchange for free housing was just above the poverty line. So you're really financially in a pretty tight situation. And your whole life, all of your social setting, all of your friends is everybody that you work with.

[00:29:02]So you're kind of just like constantly in the ethos of like saying the brand slogans to each other and they really believed that it was like get the job done period like that was something everybody loved to say. There's no saying can't. It's only how do we get this done? So it was just this constant feeling of pressure put on you and then even when you were achieving at a high level it felt like you would never be praised for that or rewarded for that.

[00:29:28]It was always just, well, don't go getting a big head or finding ways to keep you humble. They loved humility.

[00:29:35]>> That's so interesting because the living girl, that's already culty as hell. And, you know, it fosters that kind of like us versus them mentality. Just like you said, all your friends and everyone lived in the same place and you wore the same things and kind of like spoke the same language. I do have a followup though. What was your relationship with your family like during this period of time?

[00:29:59]>> My family were my best friends and still are my best friends. And I think because I had gone through so much just 4 years prior, they were just so happy to see me like getting this opportunity. But I think the more it went on, the more side eyeing they were doing like so I eventually ended up getting out almost 2 years into the experience because I had a workplace accident and I had to take a medical leave and on that medical leave I was dealing with significant like post-traumatic stress disorder and going through therapy and kind of had all of this realization of what an unhealthy environment it had been for me. I fell off a stage. That was my workplace accident when I was doing a speech. And my mom used to say, like, as crazy as this sounds, she said, "I feel like the angels pushed you off the stage. I don't know how else we would have gotten you out of the situation." That's how kind of stuck we all felt about it. They didn't know how to get me out because I was so in this mindset that like this was my only opportunity. As a disabled woman growing up knowing that 80% of disabled people are unemployed, that was a really terrifying statistic to live with. So for me, I was very much in this mindset of like, well, I'm just lucky to have a job and a job that gives me purpose. So I need to hold on for dear life to this because I might not get another opportunity ever again. So I think my mom and dad really felt like they didn't know how they were going to get me out of the situation, but they also felt like at this point the situation was very unhealthy. and within the organization there would be like a lot of comparisons and phrases thrown around a lot like it's harder to get a job with us than it is to get into Harvard University. So, like all of this phrasing to make it sound exclusive and like you're very lucky. And when my assistant left, they had to hire somebody new in my second year. And they specifically hired the person that my mom, myself, and my assistant had said not to, which felt like a control tactic to hire somebody who I said I'm not comfortable with. when we are not just flying all over the world together. We were sleeping in the same hotel rooms and I was fully reliant on her as my only support on the road to help me with getting food, to help me with checking my makeup in the morning, to help me with getting my guide dog to the bathroom. Like, she was my everything.

[00:32:15]So, to hire the person that we all said wasn't a good fit for the role. But I learned that she had been in the club her whole childhood, had applied for something like over 10 jobs at the organization and had driven halfway across the country for the job interview. So I believe that they hired her not because she was a good fit for the role, but because she was their perfect kind of candidate who was so in love with the organization and their ideology that it was kind of like an easy person to slot into the organization. Wow.

[00:32:48]>> Molly, I'm really curious. How did the leaders then use the fact that this was a charity meant for kids, for children specifically, to their advantage?

[00:32:58]>> Well, at least with me, I'll never forget being told very early on in my employment, that they wanted me to be able to get up on stage and essentially say that like me being blind wasn't as bad as what these kids are dealing with, and that I don't need to be cured. I'm okay as I am. We need to focus on supporting kids in underprivileged circumstances around the world and that's where our support needs to be. I was only four years into my life as a blind person and to be honest like well yes today I can say that as a 32year-old who's healed and done a lot of work of self-acceptance. At 18 I wasn't ready to say that but I felt like I had to. And as a speaker for them and a new kind of face of the organization I was very trained. My voice was very curated and I've been public speaking since I was 5 years old. I have my own style. If you said to me like, "What do you think is one of your biggest talents?" I would say motivational speaking or public speaking. Like I think that's something that not only have I done since I was 5 years old and I've trained in it, but I just have like an a natural ability. And so my parents were so sad to see my natural voice and talent curated to be like kind of like a clone of their style as speakers. I remember within my first month of working there being brought into the office and it was just me and the guy who ran the organization, my boss, the high up high up boss. I had many bosses in between. So, it's like very unusual that anybody with multiple layers of bosses is meeting one-on-one with the top boss, right? Like, and I was 18. He was in his 30s and I met him alone in this office and he would have me perform and drill this five minute speech over and over and over and he would go stop. 1 2 3 pause go. And he would like curate the way I spoke. He would curate my gestures. He'd say like when you say this word put your hand up.

[00:34:52]So it was all like very performative which was never my style as a speaker and is not my style as a speaker today.

[00:34:59]I'm very organic and so it was just all very curated and I had to slot into their vision of what that looked like.

[00:35:06]>> They were recreating you in his image.

[00:35:08]That's wild to hear. What was it then like leaving the group? How did you recover from that loss? It was really hard because I like didn't see my friends when I worked there for almost 2 years. Like I didn't have a life outside of my work. I was constantly on the road touring and speaking for them. And when I wasn't again like my whole social circle was the people who worked there.

[00:35:30]I had lost connection with a lot of my previous friends. And with losing the job, I was also losing my housing. So I moved back in with my parents into my childhood bedroom, which at 20 years old, going from the big city in your own apartment to the suburbs in your childhood bedroom is like a nightmare.

[00:35:47]And I honestly was dealing with so much following my accident and physically healing and emotionally healing. And then my guide dog of seven years passed away unexpectedly. So I was such a mess and I was dealing with like three to four panic attacks a day. I could hardly eat. I just felt lost. I did not know where to begin rebuilding my life because it felt like the sense of community that I had been so desperate for that I had found was gone. This sense of purpose that I had needed to feel like all of this hardship I had been through with my vision loss wasn't all for nothing was gone. My guide dog, like this one thing I had left was gone.

[00:36:26]My life in the city was gone. This independence that I had built for myself as a young blind person was gone because now I'm living with my parents again. My income gone. So now I'm getting back on disability support from the government and going through the process of reapplying for all of that. Like it really felt like everything I had worked so hard to build up was stolen from me again. And I always say like that year 2014 when all of that happened is the year that rivaled grade 8 2008 when I went blind. Like that is how hard it was. It's the second hardest period that I've ever been through in my life. And it took a really long time to rebuild.

[00:36:59]It took a lot of therapy. And to be honest, like I was so traumatized from the experience as a whole that I started my own business because of it. I was like, I can never work for other people again. Like if that's what being employed is like, like I remember trying to go to HR for certain things and it felt like they were protecting the organization over protecting the employees at times. And so it kind of made me feel like it's not safe to work for other people. I need to just work for myself. But it took a really long time. And what's crazy is like I didn't even go on SSRIs, like anxiety and depression medicine, when I went blind and was suicidal. But I went on it after this. Like it was the only way I could cope was to be medicated and focus on rebuilding something where I had autonomy. And it's crazy to say, but like I don't regret it in that it taught me so much. I grew so much as a person.

[00:37:49]It taught me about my boundaries. It taught me about autonomy and freedom and how important that is to me as a disabled woman. And it really showed me what I don't deserve and that I don't need to feel desperate for opportunity.

[00:38:05]I deserve opportunity and I will work for those opportunities myself.

[00:38:10]>> Baby Molly, you are preaching. Honey, I just do want to say first of all, just thank you for sharing your story with us because it's like reminiscent of the phoenix and just rising from the ashes.

[00:38:24]It's an incredible story. We touched on this a little bit earlier speaking specifically about the us versus them dichotomy that thrives in most cults. In your opinion, who is the us and who is the them?

[00:38:37]>> I think that everything they do came from a good place. Like I think they genuinely did want to make a positive change in the world and I think the way they went about doing it was extremely misguided and misdirected. And I think the US was like we're the shameless idealists. We're the ones that are going to change the world which makes you feel as a young person desperate for a sense of direction and meaning. It makes you feel like, oh, I'm a part of something bigger than myself. Like I'm really doing something to better the world. And that's what gets you kind of stuck in this loop. And I think the enemy is like the people who don't care. You're one of the people who cares. You're going to be one of the people who really does something to change the world. And that makes you feel really good. And I think they really meant it. And somewhere along the lines, they lost the point.

[00:39:24]And they started, in my opinion, mistreating their staff in the name of helping the less privileged around the world. And I don't think that it's okay to hurt people in the name of helping other people.

[00:39:38]>> [music] >> What if any rituals or ritualistic behaviors do you think you saw being performed by this group during your time there? You know, I think a lot of the verbiage felt very ritualistic. Like there was just like lots of phrases that would constantly be used and everybody, like I said, would wear like the same bracelets and the same t-shirts and like all of that felt very ritualistic. Well, okay, this is a weird one. When we'd all travel on the road together, there would be a homeopathic or naturopathic doctor that would come and like whenever anybody would feel tired, they'd be like, "Oh, go get your butt shot." And everybody would go get a vitamin B12 shot in the butt at a workplace, which is like very strange.

[00:40:23]>> That is very weird. Which I will say, I love a good uh butt shot, but on a work trip, I don't know.

[00:40:30]>> It's a little culty.

[00:40:31]>> It's definitely unusual. And at the time, you're like, "Oh, they care about our health." But like looking back, you're like, "That was weird." No, that was pretty strange that somebody like was feeling under the weather be like, "Oh, make sure to go sign up for your bum shot." That is weird.

[00:40:43]>> Did you realize it was weird at the time or is hindsight 2020?

[00:40:47]>> Hindsight's very 2020 because again, like when you're surrounded by everybody who's normalizing this and it's like many of these people have been with this group for years. It was really interesting because the turnover rate on average from what I remember them saying was like 8 months.

[00:41:01]>> Wow. But if you lasted beyond that, often times it seemed like you'd stay for years, 5 years, 10 years. So so many people in the organization, it was this like divide of like been there forever or brand new like you. So the brand new like you, we're all just taking the lead from the hey, we've been here forever.

[00:41:17]It's like one big family. So you'd kind of like follow their lead. And when they're all acting like it's normal, you kind of don't question it. And again, for majority of us, this is our first job outside of school. So you don't really have a benchmark of what's normal corporate behavior and you're in this like we're not like the others like we're boho hippies saving the world. It again like you don't expect it to run like corporate America because it's not corporate America. It's this organization that's free-spirited and changing the world and everything's in the name of doing the right thing.

[00:41:47]>> That turnover rate is so incredibly high. How did they spin the people who left?

[00:41:53]>> I think it was kind of like oh they can't handle it. like that was kind of the vibe that I would get. But to me, it says a lot about the fact that this is kind of perhaps a toxic environment that isn't healthy for people. And for a long time, I was so scared to speak out. And even now, I try to choose my words very carefully. And I intentionally wrote about it in a book for the first time instead of speaking about it publicly because it felt like a safer space to do it on like the pages of a memoir instead of in a YouTube video on my channel or something like that because I was scared of them for over a decade. I still felt like they have so much power and I'm a nobody and there's for lack of a better term such a cult-like following of them that I felt like if I say anything against it I'll be persecuted for speaking out. And even now, like I still won't use their names or anything like specific because I'm scared. And I hate that I'm scared as a 32-year-old of a group I worked with at 18. But that is how powerful they felt to me and still do in ways. And it's been through other people speaking out that I felt more empowered to do so myself. But even then, like I see majority of us either when hired or when let go had to sign an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement, which again, like if you're hired and have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, that's weird. That's not a normal workplace practice. Why am I signing a non-disclosure agreement to work at a charity? And so many of us are still scared. And like there's an entire podcast I found where they dedicated a full season to this organization and interviewed a lot of former employees who all remain anonymous, but through their testimony and sharing like their experience, it's made me feel like, okay, I'm not crazy. This is what I faced. And I would hear their stories and I'd be like, oh my god, I forgot about some of this craziness, like some of these weird things that would happen.

[00:43:40]And it just, yeah, it feels very empowering to hear their stories and I hope hearing mine empowers other people.

[00:43:46]One of the things that stuck out the most in my mind when writing the book and reflecting back is all the moments when I felt like I was made to feel less than as what feels like a control tactic. Like I was in England for work and I was recovering from my accident still and I didn't feel up to doing my one more final commitment and I had already done every single other commitment and I had one more and I said, "Hey, I just can't. Could you get somebody to fill in for me?" And they said, "If you don't do it, you have to pay for your hotel tonight."

[00:44:14]>> Oh wow. So they made me pay for my own hotel room on a work trip because I wouldn't fulfill one final thing when I was sick. That for me was like, "Oh, I'm done." That same phone call, I had answered the phone cuz the call came in from my assistant, but when I answered it, it was the boss on my assistant's phone. I don't know. It's hard to not speculate that it was maybe intentional that he used my assistant's number instead of his own so that I would answer and be caught off guard to speak to him. And then yeah, I was told that I had to pay for my hotel room. So I did.

[00:44:47]And as soon as I got back, I took a medical leave. And that was the beginning of the end for me was realizing like, oh, they don't care about me at all. For all they know, they're going to like strand me here and not care. And like that just didn't seem fair to me at all. And I can't imagine another company a making you sleep in the same room as your co-orker, but b somebody getting sick on a work trip and being unable to fulfill their work obligations, being told you have to pay for your own hotel. Like that's crazy.

[00:45:15]>> That's wild. I'm just flabbergasted to say the least, but very happy. That was over a decade ago, you said, and you're out. And so now, like looking back, how do you think about charities now? If you read my memoir, you'll know this was not my only negative experience with a charity. So, I think for me now, it's really hard to trust. I grew up from five to around 16 as the face of a charity who was trying to cure blindness. And that's how I started public speaking at 5 was speaking at their fundraisers for them. And, you know, I fundraised over many years hundreds of thousands if not perhaps millions of dollars for vision research to cure my disease. I'm still blind. And you know, I think as a child, hearing things like all this work you're doing for us, we're going to cure you within 10 years. It was hard for me to understand that perhaps they were being hopeful or optimistic. I felt like they were telling me factual things. So, I believed it. And so then when I went blind and I was not cured, it was really devastating. But not just that, it was kind of this realization that a lot of the language charities like that use is language that pies the disabled person or demeans the disabled person in the name of pulling on the heartstrings to get those donations because if you say like, "Oh, you can live a wonderful life as a blind person. Why are we donating to cure blindness?" So the way we speak about it is to say, "Oh, this poor little girl is going to go blind and she won't be able to drive and she won't be able to look in the mirror or see her child smile one day." like how hard that will be for her. So, we must make sure that doesn't happen. So, open your wallets. That was kind of like the language I had heard spoken around me about my disability my whole life. So, that was a part of what made the reality of my blindness that much more challenging was that the language I had been filled with was how awful blindness is, not how wonderful life can still be if you go blind. So, it made my depression and my suicidal ideiation that much more real. And so I had to do a lot of work to separate from that ideology and that language around disability and learn that like no I can live a beautiful life as a blind person and I am whole. I'm not broken. I don't need to be changed, fixed or healed. I am whole as I am. This is who I was intended to be and I can live a beautiful life this way. So I did a lot of work to like untangle that narrative that had been kind of filled into my head since the time I was like this impressionable little girl. And then I had that negative charity experience. So I think for me now to be honest like I'm very critical of charities and it just simply stems from my own trauma negative experiences with not one but two and the harm that they did in my life and I think that as a minority woman as somebody from an oppressed community. I feel that in both circumstances I was in ways taken advantage of and certainly my innocence was and my naive was. So now I'm much more skeptical and I definitely side eye the way that other people used to side eye when I was in these organizations.

[00:48:14]>> Wow. You talked a little bit about the more like devastating effects of this cult or I guess both of the organizations, charity organizations.

[00:48:24]Were there any positive impacts of them?

[00:48:28]>> Well, like I said, public speaking since I was five, like I wouldn't have done that if it wasn't for that original charity. And that's the first love of my life. I will still say to this day, I feel the most alive on a stage. And I know people think I'm crazy when I say that because so many people are like, "Oh my god, I'd literally rather die than public speak. It's my biggest fear." I'm the opposite. Like, put me on a stage, girl. Give me a mic in my hand.

[00:48:49]And like, I would have never discovered that love if it wasn't for that first experience. And I would have never seen how my voice has power to make change.

[00:48:56]So I am grateful for that first organization for the experience that it gave me in developing my skill as a speaker that I now use to share a very different message. And equally for the second organization, the more cultlike one, I am grateful for all the ways in which it helped me grow as a person. And I would have never started my own business, which I've been running for 12 years now successfully as an entrepreneur. I would have never started my YouTube channel perhaps which became my full-time job doing social media and all of that came from all the lessons that those two organizations taught me.

[00:49:34]So I don't wish those experiences on other people but I don't regret it. It was a part of my story. It's a part of my life and my journey and it made me who I am. And if anything it's helped me develop a lot of empathy and understanding for other people. Like I truly don't ask how somebody could end up in a cult because while I wasn't in a cult in the traditional sense, I was certainly in something adjacent to it that had many similar practices and I know what a slippery slope it is and I know the types of people that are ripened for it, right? Like I had so many experiences in my formative years that did make me the perfect target for this very circumstance. And it's the same for many other people. Many people are just looking for a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense of direction and community. And when you find that in somebody who feels powerful and all knowing, it just feels like, oh, this is a person I've been seeking and it compounds. It slowly builds. It's not like they're like, "Drink the Kool-Aid right away." It's something that slowly happens over time. And a lot of it is rationalized to you. A lot of it seems like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." Like when you boil it all down, like, "Oh yeah, that totally makes sense that I would live in staff housing instead of taking a higher salary." or like you get discount on the clothing and everybody else is wearing it and you want to feel a part of it. That just becomes the fashion trend now within my social circle is everybody else wearing it. So like I'll just buy it there and like you know it just all slowly makes sense to you especially when the way they build out your training of learning about the history and like we were just a group of kids trying to make a difference and you're now a part of that group of kids trying to make a difference and you know they would tell you stories about how when they first started they were so altruistic and so broke that they had this slogan they all lived in a house together and worked in the house together and if it's yellow let it mellow. if it's brown, flush it down. So they could like waste less water and like they were just like instilling all of these like beliefs in you and you're like wow. And so I see for other people now how you can find yourself in these situations and I don't judge. I have compassion and empathy for them and I hope that anybody who finds themselves in a similar situation does get to the other side and finds the blessings and the learnings in that experience.

[00:51:39]Hearing your story and similar stories about scammy charities, it obviously is so discouraging and alarming, but we don't want to completely discourage people from being charitable altogether.

[00:51:54]So, how would you advise listeners on being able to differentiate between charities that are legit or charities that are scammy and and dangerous? Yeah, it's really hard because at face value like this organization looked very legitimate and I'll say like a lot of their work was this isn't a charity scam in that like they were giving the money to the what they said they were and they were really making real world impact to the lives of the communities they were serving. All of that is true. It's just the way they were doing it behind the scenes wasn't healthy in my opinion. And so it can be hard to navigate. For me now, like I still very much give back to charities, but I give back to charities who have positively impacted my life.

[00:52:35]For example, like the organization where I receive my guide dogs from. Each guide dog cost $40,000 to train, and they give them free of charge to blind people like me through charitable donations. And so I'm on my fourth guide dog. So you can do the math. Almost $200,000 of guide dogs have been given to me over the last 19 years. All from the same organization. And they're like family to me. They're incredible. I see the way in which they've changed my life and they changed the lives of so many others. So that's like an organization that I I proudly have fundraised over $100,000 for and I think the work they do is so incredible. I'm coming out with my second book in the fall and it's a children's book about guide dogs to teach kids about what service dogs do and I'm donating 100% of my author's advance to the Mirror Foundation. So I find organizations that like I really trust deeply and that's who I give to.

[00:53:23]Another partner of mine is the CNIB, the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, who again like I grew up attending their summer camps and learning Braille from them and getting my orientation and mobility training from them and I know the real world impact of what they do. So, it's an organization that I can like confidently and safely support. So, I think it's just making sure you find organizations that align with your values on every level and doing due diligence, doing some soothing. You know, there's definitely like Reddit threads out there about different organizations and like finding ones that feel like trustworthy I think is important.

[00:53:57]>> Okay, so the message is do the digging.

[00:54:00]Iman, are you listening? Let me tell you, Molly, at the beginning of this episode, we're talking about making sure that when we're donating to these like GoFundMes that we're doing the research to make sure that we're sending it to the right place.

[00:54:15]>> Yes.

[00:54:16]>> So, we're going to take that with us.

[00:54:17]No, it's so important and like there is information out there these days and it's hard and I don't want people to like be filled with skepticism. Like I am ultimately an optimistic person. I try to see the good in people honestly probably to a fault. Like I am extremely trusting and that's the reality is for lack of a better term I blindly trusted.

[00:54:34]I did not ask enough questions. I went into this very naive and that is something I will never do again. You know there's like the glass door kind of websites where you can look at like what is it like to work at that company. do research and see like are they treating their staff well? Are they doing the work they're saying they're doing? And it's it's tough because I want to be able to trust the people who pop up GoFundMes and give back and support them. And thankfully GoFundMe as a company does a pretty good job at vetting and when there is a scandal like refunding everybody which is great but you hear about these GoFundMe scandals that where fake cancer and all this stuff and it sucks that these bad actors ruin it for the good ones. Well, that was a perfect transition to the next part of our episode where we like to just end it off with a culty game. Okay, so the object of this game is basically we're just going to read you a quote and you'll have to guess if the quote is from a cult [music] leader or a charity scammer. Stop it.

[00:55:38]>> [laughter] >> This is iconic because like truly just thinking of the quotes that I could say from my old boss, I'm like indistinguishable. Indistinguishable.

[00:55:47][laughter] >> One and the same.

[00:55:49]>> One in the same. This is so good. Okay, I'm ready.

[00:55:53]>> Okay, so the first one. [music] What if Jesus gave you your miracle, but you weren't paying attention?

[00:55:59]>> Oh, cult. [laughter] >> Is that a charity?

[00:56:04]>> Sorry.

[00:56:06]It is Amanda Riley, the person who faked cancer for decades to pocket donations.

[00:56:12]>> Oh yes, an iconic one. Oh my god. I mean, it gives cult though. No, like >> Oh, no. Absolutely.

[00:56:18]>> But you know, the parallels of organized religion and cults are also very strong.

[00:56:23]So, I think it's the religious slogans like that that can feel very is it cult or is it organized religion?

[00:56:29]>> Okay. Well, speaking of which, what a perfect transition. We set out to change the world for the glory of God.

[00:56:37]>> See, at least my organization didn't use any religion. Okay, I'm going to say cult.

[00:56:43]>> That was John Bennett of the New Era Philanthropy, which took 354 million from 500 nonprofit organizations and philanthropists. I am so sorry.

[00:56:55]>> Oh [laughter] my lord.

[00:56:56]>> Yeah, but no cigar.

[00:56:58]>> Wild.

[00:56:59]>> Okay, the next one. The world lives in darkness. Only here you will find the light of true existence. Damn, they all sound like they could go either way.

[00:57:10][laughter] They honestly actually all sound like more culty than charity. Truly, all of like, [laughter] as I said, I've been involved with many charities over the years, both good ones and bad ones, and none of them use phrases anywhere close to this like wacky. Really tapping into your like emotional, spiritual, I'm lost soul. energy. Well, okay. Because I failed both times, I'm going to say charity.

[00:57:34]>> And sorry, but you failed again because that [laughter] this is so hard. This is so You guys need to make a card game and sell it.

[00:57:44]This is so funny.

[00:57:46]>> This one is good. This one is from the Bagwan Shri Rajnish from the Osho movement or the Rajnishi cult. But yeah, so that was a cult leader that said that.

[00:57:57]>> Okay. I mean, check checks out. The crossover is strong.

[00:58:00]>> Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Little intersectionality there. Uh-huh.

[00:58:03]>> You got this one, Molly. Ready? We can show you how one person can make a difference in the lives of people around the world. Put your love into action.

[00:58:12]>> Okay, that's charity for sure.

[00:58:14]>> You got it.

[00:58:16]>> Okay. Okay. That's like the type of language that organization used for sure. I recognize that type of verbiage anywhere. So that was Larry Jones, who's the former head of Christian group called Feed the Children, who was accused of misspending funds and taking bribes. By the way, the organization that I worked for was also shut down for similar reasons. So, >> well, this is the very last one, and I think that you're about to be on a roll.

[00:58:44]>> Okay. Any ideology or thoughts of a better world are just fiction until they're actualized.

[00:58:51]>> Okay, that must be a cult. And you got it, boo.

[00:58:54]>> Okay, good.

[00:58:54]>> Keith Reneer, >> although again that would have been used, that similar phrasing would have absolutely been used in my situation. Oh my god.

[00:59:02]>> Well, you did good. Listen, I think you got like a >> Yeah.

[00:59:06]>> Two out of five.

[00:59:08]>> Yeah, [laughter] >> you had a sweeping victory in the end.

[00:59:11]>> Right at the end. Right at the end. I came in there.

[00:59:13]>> Exactly. Okay. Well, that was fun.

[00:59:15]Molly, thank you so much for hopping on and doing this with us. We really, really appreciate it. and just telling your story.

[00:59:23]>> Of course. Thank you. It feels like very cathartic to talk about it and to talk about it with people who understand. And it's also equally validating when people who talk about this kind of stuff for a living are shocked by the behaviors. I'm like, "Okay, it was crazy." Like, I'm not crazy for thinking it was crazy. It was wild.

[00:59:39]>> Yeah. No, it was absolutely wild. If our listeners wanted to follow you and your cult, your cult, Molly, where could they do that? You can find me on pretty much every platform. It's Molly Burke official. M O L L Y B U R ke O F F I C I A L. And my memoir, Unseen, [music] which goes into all of the like nitty-gritty details of the experience, is available in audio and in hardback [music] anywhere books are sold. Amazing.

[01:00:11][music] So, Chelsea, out of our three cult categories, do you think the cult of charity scams falls into a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the [ __ ] out? So, for me, I'm going to say the cults of charity scams are definitely a watch your back. Just as our guest Molly spoke about, it's really important to just do your due diligence on a lot of these companies because there are very reputable companies that are doing amazing great work out there and they need money to be able to be able to help people. So, I think this is definitely a watch your back. Just just watch watch who you giving your money to. What about you?

[01:01:04]>> And you're saying watch your back. I'm saying watch my back because me and GoFundMe were like this and I'm not going to stop my my recurring donations.

[01:01:12]I think it's really important to be able to give back when you can.

[01:01:16]>> And this has just been a really great reminder to do my research and to do my due diligence before donating to any charity and to make sure that you're being really intentional with where you put your money and where you devote your time and actions. I agree. Well, culties, that's our show.

[01:01:38]>> Thanks so much for listening.

[01:01:39]>> Join us for a new Colt next week.

[01:01:41]>> And in the meantime, >> stay culty, but not too culty.

[01:01:54]>> Sounds Like a cult [music] was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Chelsea [music] Charles and Aman Harriia. Our managing producer is Katie Eper. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. Additional research for this episode by Lexi Perry. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Word Slut: A Feminist Guide [music] to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com/soundsacult.