Senzo Meyiwa Murder Trial | 22 May 2026

Added: 2026-05-23

[00:00:04]Yes.

[00:00:08]Appearances on behalf of the state.

[00:00:13]I confirming my appearance on behalf of >> Okay.

[00:00:19]>> If it may please the court. My lord, I confirm my appearance on behalf of Mr. Antani.

[00:00:25]>> This is the court. My lord. I confirm my appearance on behalf of Mr. M. Number four. Thank you.

[00:00:43]Yeah, this this is going to be a very short hearing.

[00:00:49]Yesterday, as we all knew there were problems regarding the hearing yesterday, but more especially that the accused before court, all of some displeasure regarding Mr. Jonas who is the interpreter in this court.

[00:01:40]this court's agenda to go and check the law because like I said, I have been involved in law as a judicial officer starting as an attorney since 197. 75 this is unprecedented never experienced this where an officer of the court Mr. Jonas is an interpreter but in terms of our law he's an officer of the court. He's forms part of the court. He's a judicial officer of the court.

[00:02:36]is being pillared by the fact that there is a perception or a reality through the accused that I don't know they say he's moody.

[00:02:56]What is the other term?

[00:03:00]>> He's moody.

[00:03:01]>> Emotional.

[00:03:02]>> He's emotional.

[00:03:04]There was a third one.

[00:03:07]And what else?

[00:03:08]>> Impatient or something.

[00:03:10]>> And inmperate. What?

[00:03:14]>> Short-tempered.

[00:03:15]>> Short-tempered. Yeah. Moody, emotional, and short-tempered.

[00:03:19]But the accused here before never said he is deficient as an interpreter.

[00:03:31]Nobody attacks his competence as a as an interpreter.

[00:03:37]Being moody in tempmperate doesn't attack one's integrity and it doesn't cast a reflection on the competence of Mr. Jonas.

[00:03:55]I was here watching him. I saw nothing wrong which he did nothing.

[00:04:06]I spoke to Mr. Jonas as an officer of the court and I also spoke to my superiors.

[00:04:15]They asked me if Mr. Jonas is in contempt of this court. That's the only time you can remove an interpreter when he's in contempt.

[00:04:28]Like I'm I'm sorry to say it. I read about a prosecutor who supposed to have absconded from court aunt. He never came to court. He never gave anybody an explanation why he's not in court. Now that is contempt of court.

[00:04:45]Nobody has accused Mr. Jonas of misrepresenting his interpretation. In other words, when an for instance a witness says this man drank coffee and did ABC and Mr. Jonah says this man drank.

[00:05:09]He has never misrepresented the evidence in this court. Nobody including the accused in court have accused him of misrepresenting the facts. In other words, also I haven't heard him being accused of misrepresenting the facts. And you know what he said about this incident?

[00:05:37]Mr. Jonas is a most senior interpreter here.

[00:05:46]There are people outside watching this case who will think if I request him to recuse himself as an interpreter, it is because of any deficiency in his skill as a an interpreter.

[00:06:02]So I decided today to say to Mr. the jonas he must tell us his history as an interpreter when did he start etc. So so that the public outside knows the person we're dealing with can you do that sir >> no no please please I'm the judge here this is what happens in this court Mr. Jonas, please tell us. I want to know because I met you here in this pritorial court, not every anywhere else. Okay.

[00:06:44]Uh my lord, um um I started my interpreting career in 2000 uh at PAL magistrate court in the Western Cape. That's where I was born and bred. Uh they name call it the Bland or the Welands. I came to Justice College here in Pritoria where we were trained uh in 2002.

[00:07:06]Uh I've been an interpreter since then.

[00:07:09]I interpreted at the Western Cape High Court. I can safely say my I was the personal interpreter for the former judge president of the Western Cape Judge Scope. I this is not the first high-profile matter that I was involved I've been involved in. Back in the years, there was a matter in the Western Cape, the matter of Dina Rodriguez, otherwise known as the Baby Jordan matter, which was presided over by your brother, Judge Wgley, Bashir Wgley. I did that matter.

[00:07:38]It was English Africans. I was the only interpreter in the Western Cape that was called upon to interpret in Zulu matters, the entire Western Cape, whether it's the magistrate court or whether it's the high court. Uh so my experience goes as far as that. a lot.

[00:07:56]Uh I did not only become a principal here in Koeng. I was a principal at Fred and Dal. It's about four five hours away from Cape Town. Uh and then I then came to Kenot. So I have interpreted inquire.

[00:08:12]I can name judges. Judge Yi, Robert Hi, Judge Leanch, Judge Nita, Judge Dulamo.

[00:08:19]All those judges can be approached my lord. I have never ever been called upon or being subjected to any disciplinary hearing or any matter that came maybe it says it was sent to the SCA where it was then said or the fed back where the interpretation was questioned me a lot uh judge th personally would call me to come and interpret especially in Zulu matters with judge or the former judge to being a zulu p speaking person himself my lord uh so that is in uh uh In short, my lord, my interpreting career uh >> is how many years?

[00:08:56]>> Uh plus minus 25 years.

[00:08:58]>> 25 years.

[00:08:58]>> That's correct.

[00:09:03]Yeah.

[00:09:07]Can also mention my lot. I also interpreted in the tribunal of the Eastern Cape Judge, President Ben.

[00:09:14]I interpreted for the former speaker.

[00:09:16]There's a matter here at this court of the former speaker. I interpreted in that matter as well in isosa malot which is my first language.

[00:09:26]>> And your training >> malot >> your training >> my training as I said it started in 2002 here at the justice college the now what is which is now called the bridge mabandra college mort where the majanga commission is being held. I also hold a national diploma in legal interpreting from the university of free state. I also did some uh courses uh in-house courses advanced course the sexual offenses course uh uh you expect evidence of course malot so I've attended to some to some courses as well all right yeah you know when I started there was no constitution in South Africa, there was a common law and parliament was supreme.

[00:10:27]But things have changed.

[00:10:30]Now we have a constitution.

[00:10:34]Now we have the Labor Relations Act.

[00:10:39]A judge can no longer fire a an interpreter. In the past, the law was interpreted by a judge pursuent to what we called the common law then. But today, he as an interpreter is protected by the constitution. I can't fire him unless he has transgressed the law.

[00:11:06]There's the labor relations act. He can sue me and he can sue the department for firing him because it means I'm accusing him of incompetence.

[00:11:19]You can even mention the inter in tempmperacy and what have you what have you. But those those those acts are unlawful.

[00:11:30]I spoke to Mr. join us in my chambers and I've spoken to the JP sorry the chief justice not the lady the deputy chief justice and I was advised that if Mr. Jonas is of the view that his presence here as perceived by the accused here is denying them the opportunity of having a fair trial. I don't know anybody I don't know if anybody can actually say that. But if as a result of his presence here, the accused here are of the view that they are not getting a fair trial.

[00:12:40]Then he must tell me if he still wants to continue with this trial or not.

[00:12:44]What's your views? Uh my lord, uh if I may say it, may I first start by saying my lord, I'm going to say this blunt. Uh this has been long coming a lot. At some point I was in I was contacted by my colleagues in KZN.

[00:13:02]One of the advocates here had spoken to colleagues in the in the KZN to come and take over the matter. So this has been long coming. I want to say that I want to put it on the records. I was personally contacted. uh so if it is going to then affect the accused uh some of my colleagues don't want to come to the matter because of comments that were made directed to them a lot about them being unprofessional so if indeed it is going to affect I'm going to ask the court personally to recuse myself a lot okay I can't I can't stop you from recusing self but my lord can I also mention that yesterday there was mention made of Mr. Batzan it is not the call of the defense nor that I choose to pick and choose my lord I can recuse myself but they cannot say we want so and so my lord that one is it cannot happen as I said with Mr. Ni as I'm choosing myself now reasons will have to be because now I must go back to my superiors reasons will have they must it must be written down as to if why they want that and reasons must be given just as I said to Mr. Malot reasons are needed as to why they would say they want so not to say it will happen but there must be uh reasons my lord no quite so even a judge is supposed to if he says he's of the view that an interpreter is incompetent they say a judge must make a written submission to that effect so that it is known that you recused yourself or you have been recused because of whatever reason.

[00:14:53]So I have to write that also but I want to thank you because you have been with us for 2 and a half years here.

[00:15:04]>> No this case my lord from 2024 when you started for jud before judge m. Yeah, look at that. 2020 >> two mothers >> 2022 in this case they've never been accused of inmpacy in unqualified or whatever incompetent okay fine I'm sorry about that but then this court makes an order that because of the request by Mr. join us.

[00:15:33]He is excused, not recused, he's excused from continuing interpreting in this matter.

[00:15:42]And I will approach the Department of Justice and like I said, the deputy chief justice to recommend.

[00:15:57]I know you you have to actually you know this is a dichotomy of this thing you are the senior senior senior interpreter here anybody who comes to interpret here must be appointed by you am I correct >> yeah this is the dichotomy but because of your circumstance now fine we shall prevail that another interpreter should be summoned to come and take over your chores. Okay.

[00:16:32]Yes.

[00:16:34]Mr. Are we aing after this?

[00:16:41]>> If we if we not continue mad, we we have to agend on behalf of the state. Mot we must say we are very saddened.

[00:16:49]Mr. Jonas is one of the most competent interpreters. In fact, we told him when we miss something in our notes, we wait for him to interpret and we'll then pick up whatever we've lost. Uh it's actually very sad and and the delays this will cause delays in the matter. We know the family of the deceased protested on Tuesday about the delays just cause further delays. New person who's got no background in the matter to just cause further delays.

[00:17:23]Doctor >> any views as advocate has said they still by what happened to Mr. I have no further submissions. I'm still in disbelief.

[00:17:48]I've got no further submissions on the matter.

[00:17:57]>> Mr. >> Yeah.

[00:18:02]>> I thought from where I'm sitting, there are ways in which things could be done for you to deal with this particular >> I thought that probably we could have been requested to come and be a team probably try to find a way through which the issues which have been raised yesterday by the accused by the way I must emphasize that it's not us but that is about to come and try to find mechanism through the issues which they raised yesterday could be dealt with rather than to really come to this point which I know that it's going to come in and have a flow in what has been happening I heading towards I would I would I would propose I would basically propose that in as much as I hear fully what Mr. is saying we probably can convene and try to meet each other halfway along those bases but just to say just leave with the massive experience that he has in this case the background and everything I think it's a robust micro >> thank you fellow with it. I have nothing with that.

[00:19:53]>> My lot, >> conflict management is a skill that needs to be adopted >> when there are issues like this.

[00:20:05]And with your respect, my lord, I submit that there is a better way that this conflict could have been managed professionally and not in a destructive way >> but in a way that is going to assist all the officers and this matter to go forward.

[00:20:27]>> Yeah. as we have as my learning friend from the state has indicated that it will also cause some delays. It's one of the facts that also ought to have been considered when the decision is taken and also meot I will applaud the advice that we received from the DJP to say if the behavior of Mr. Jonas will make the accused not to receive a fair trial.

[00:21:03]That also has to be considered. It's not a one-sided issue that needs to be considered. And it's not our case as defense councils. They are the ones who have to feel comfortable with the interpretation. They are the ones who have to understand the interpretation, the language and the manner in which they understand and they know it.

[00:21:27]Some reservations have been escalated to Mr. Jonas before regarding the proper interpretation.

[00:21:37]My lord, I will submit with reservations that a zolu language speaking. It's not the same when it is interpreted by a non zolu speaking person. I'm saying that with reservations as an officer of the court my lord to say those are the issues that ought not to be considered when we are making this decision my lord with those submissions that I' i'm i'm saying my lord I'm saying I'm still saying my lord with your respect there is another way my lord that we can be able to sit down in maybe in chambers with the judge as officers of the court and then maybe see how we can resolve solve this conflict in a better way. My lord, those are my submissions.

[00:22:25]>> You know what? This is how Mr. Raipiri, Mr. Ni, Mr. and yourself should have acted.

[00:22:38]You are officers of the court.

[00:22:43]I saw you going up there and consulting your clients and then you came back and Mr. Sorry, Mr. Mi makes an announcement that I'm a bearer of bad news.

[00:22:58]>> No, I didn't say that. I saw I said, >> what did you say?

[00:23:03]>> I'm a bearer >> of that not so comfortable.

[00:23:06]>> That's it. Fine. Okay. Yeah. And then it just struck me. What? Actually, I thought somebody has a heart attack there.

[00:23:15]>> Okay.

[00:23:16]>> Because all of you went down. So I thought maybe somebody's had an a heart attack or somebody there has had news that a mother or a father or a child or what have you has died >> then I'm hit with this bomb that >> my apologies my lord >> on our behalf.

[00:23:41]>> Oh wait that that is the reality.

[00:23:43]>> Yes. Now a decision has been taken by you even as officers of the court that you align yourself with the sentiments of your clients.

[00:23:56]There's nothing I can do and I'm sorry.

[00:23:59]I hope this will be a lesson for us as we grow and become older in our perspectives.

[00:24:10]But unfortunately it has been done and you know Mr. Jonas has his dignity.

[00:24:17]He has his dignity and that must be preserved. That's why I wanted him to tell us his experience.

[00:24:30]He's got a wife, he's got children, he's got friends, he's got colleagues. He is a leader in this court. Mr. on us.

[00:24:40]That's what's said about this case.

[00:24:43]Okay, General, are you available Monday?

[00:24:45]>> Yes, mate.

[00:24:46]>> Okay, so we done until Monday. Okay.