Have You Ever Finished a Week and Wondered What You Did That Mattered?

Added: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]The secret test. If the job disappeared tomorrow, would it matter? What do you do about it?

[00:00:08]>> Have you had jobs, Helen? Two and a half.

[00:00:11]>> Okay. One part one.

[00:00:12]>> Almost every day losing a bit of confidence, but I felt a bit scared about, oh, this is a really risky career position to be in cuz you're not doing good, valuable work.

[00:00:21]>> You can just find yourself sometimes in these situations. We probably can't solve it overnight. I don't think these things are necessarily solvable overnight. On paper, not pointless. In reality, pointless. And it was a job actually I was really excited about.

[00:00:34]>> You will all have a job at some point that feels a bit like this or a lot like this. And so, actually, if you had some ways of finding your way through those moments, that would actually be really helpful. But I do wonder whether sometimes you just know. You just know.

[00:00:49]And if you do, I think the faster you can get out, the better.

[00:00:58]Hi, I'm Helen. And I'm Sarah. And this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast, a weekly podcast where we borrow brilliance from something we've been reading or watching or listening to or an event that we've been at which we think has some inspiration and usefulness for our careers. So, this is we're laughing before we even start. So, >> this could feel a bit negative listeners and and viewers. Um but we still think it's worth exploring. Um a few things that we have kind of come across that all I feel like have converged or come together. Uh so Helen and I went to the theater this week.

[00:01:36]>> We did >> to see Wankconomics >> and it was absolutely brilliant. Um if you don't like follow their work, it's hilarious and slightly too close to the bone at times. I think it's fair to say.

[00:01:48]>> Um I think they're doing another one in we're based in London. They're doing another show in London in November which we're just going to take all our team to. I think like you've got to just laugh at yourself.

[00:01:56]>> Sarah is out there. This is great tone of voice training for the team. Don't say that. That is exactly what I said because they basically go like don't use everyone uses 10 words rather than three because if you use 10 words your job's more like worth it. You'll get paid more or whatever. Um so that was brilliant.

[00:02:14]Before that I had read this book. Um I bought this I've never read jobs before. probably because the title just doesn't appeal to me.

[00:02:21]>> There's quite a lot of swearing already in this episode.

[00:02:23]>> Yeah, it is. Um >> anti work people are very swear.

[00:02:26]>> Yeah. The rise of pointless work and what we can do about it. And I just go, "Oh, that feels quite negative." So, it's probably not a book I would normally pick up.

[00:02:33]>> Yeah.

[00:02:33]>> Um but I think I saw some people refer to it and I was like, "Oh, no. You should get curious about things that are different."

[00:02:39]>> Remember that anti-reading list, you know, when we had that thing in our reading episode? Yeah.

[00:02:43]>> And so I'm like, and probably a little bit maybe it was prompted by that even.

[00:02:46]So I I sat and read this in a you know sometimes you read things in really weird situations. I was at a soft play.

[00:02:53]>> I mean that sounds like even more depressing.

[00:02:56]>> And so I put on some noise cancelling headphones.

[00:02:58]>> Yeah. I would always do that in a soft play.

[00:02:59]>> And then got out this and like sat there happily highlighting it, ignoring the two nine-year-olds I was meant to be looking after. And and then at one point I did realize I'd not seen them for like 20 minutes and I was like oh I went wondering around.

[00:03:12]>> Um so there's that there's that.

[00:03:14]jobs wankomics and So the latest book from the pound project. So um some people will have will have our book from the pound project about confidence gremlins and we are big fans of the pound project. We always buy their book every time they release a new one for everyone in the team. Um even when the latest one um by Amy McNe is called I don't want a job.

[00:03:36]>> A manifesto.

[00:03:37]>> Not a real job.

[00:03:38]>> Not a real job. Uh so yeah I don't want a job. Not a real job. So there's there's two books. choose choose creativity instead. Um, and she actually has a really good TED talk as well if you kind of want to watch that. So, jobs is probably what we're borrowing the most brilliance from today. Um, but we also thought, oh, it's interesting that there's some of these things that have all >> like an anti-work anti- job theme.

[00:04:01]>> Yes.

[00:04:02]>> Um, and actually, it's quite funny. I quite a lot of people I know buy the pound project books and people were messaging me going, "Oh, it's very anti anti-quiggly. It's very anti-ra." And I was thinking, "Oh, that's even more reason to read it." Yeah. Um, and we were talking to JP, who's one of the founders, and I said, "Oh, I found it a really provocative read." And he was, "Oh, yeah, I bet you did." Which is good, right? There's no point that love >> careers. Everyone just agreeing all the time. And my sister's read it and she was like, "Oh, I'd be I'll be intrigued to see what you think of it." You know, she was saying in a in a sort of very nice way. Um, and I was messaging her and she was like, "Oh, I do always really appreciate your like optimistic outlook on life." Whereas she like absolutely loved it. Whereas I was like, "Oh, I think I probably have a bit more of an optimistic view."

[00:04:46]>> Well, I haven't read Jobs yet and I haven't read the New Town Project book. So, I'm going to kind of sort of be open to your insights and think about how they apply.

[00:04:54]>> Okay. So, I think for jobs, the thing that's really important is is actually the definition of like what he means. So it's David uh Greyber who wrote this and he is an anthropologist.

[00:05:05]Okay.

[00:05:05]>> So the book if you do want to read the book the book is very much zoomed out.

[00:05:10]It's the economy. It's the rise of pointless jobs like society. It's definitely not written with an individual lens. Yeah. Um which is some of what we're going to attempt to try and do today. and he describes them as um jobs that are pointless, unnecessary, and basically as an employee, you cannot justify its existence. Um but you're sort of having to pretend that they're worth it essentially. And the key word is the individual's assessment. So it's like they're pointless and you know that they're pointless. Um, and when he he wrote this article in a magazine called Stripe magazine, which you can read for free, so you can read the original article for free. And basically what happened was he he sort of put this like phrase out there and then he just got a massive response. Loads of people all across the world sharing their stories mainly anonymously >> of being in pointless jobs and often being in quite well- paid pointless jobs. Um and this the secret test which is it is quite confronting is if the job disappeared tomorrow would it matter and and he sort of says well there are loads of people in jobs where if it disappeared tomorrow it just it wouldn't matter and obviously there are lots of people in jobs where it would really matter as well. Um and quite early on in the book he did say there's often sometimes you can be partly right you might be like well part of my jobs feel pointless or part of what I do doesn't feel that useful but part does and that's probably a more sort of pragmatic view. Um so like I say it's quite a descriptive book not that focused on action. Yeah. Um but what we thought we would talk about is our reflection. So Helen has kind of got to grips a bit before today with like with this definition and like how we felt about it. And then if this is you today, if you're in all of a job, part of one or you know someone who is cuz I actually think the more we explore this, the more probably we all realize it relates to us at some point in our squiggly careers. Like what do you do about it? Um so I'm not sure how much he'll approve of us then making it really practical. You know when you read a book and you're like apologists we're like and I was like I kept reading I was like what are the what you know like where's the answers >> where's the help >> where's the actions like what do you want me to do? Um and the same with Amy really she doesn't she's not trying to solve you know like I'm always find that really interesting when people almost accept they're like oh it's sort of it's not up to me to give to give answers or to suggest actions. On that point, this week I was doing a um I was doing a workshop for Blinkist actually. There's a couple hundred people on it and people were I was like interacting in the chat and somebody just said in the chat, "Stop fixing things." I can't remember what question I asked, but it was that answer did not relate to my question and I said something like, "Oh, you're going to have to I don't quite get that.

[00:08:06]You're going to have to elaborate a little bit more." Um anyway, the person kindly emailed me uh well messaged me on LinkedIn afterwards and said I was the person that said stop fixing things. Um and it was a really kind message and it just it just said, "I can tell you've got loads of energy for what you do. Um and I've followed your work for a while." And he was like, "I just want you to know you don't have to fix every problem with careers of work. Um, actually some of them are just rubbish and you don't need to kind of and I just thought it was a it was it was directly clear and empathetic and maybe you know these books I quite like maybe that they are not >> they're just holding >> they're just holding there is a bit of an issue here that we should all be holding a little bit and maybe there isn't a fast fix and it's not a do something different >> complicated and complex right maybe it's okay >> so you've you've just got to >> it's and it's just very different I think sometimes because naturally the way that we both are and the work that we That's why it is good to spend time with other people and other perspectives because both of them do that. They just they hold >> they've got really strong points of view. They're really provocative.

[00:09:08]>> Um and but then you're there's no resolve, you know, at the end. It's like you you've got to sit with it. Yeah.

[00:09:14]>> And actually that feels quite quite uncomfortable. Um and often I think it's cuz I'm like but I want to help or I want to support or >> what's a good idea that I could let and it's just it's like no.

[00:09:24]>> But maybe it's just do you also feel this? Yes, >> maybe maybe that's enough at this. Do you this is my view, my perspective. Do you also feel this?

[00:09:32]>> Yeah. And people people definitely connected. I think with both Amy's work and David's work, people really really connect with it. They really recognize it. So then you maybe feel seen, >> which is really powerful, right? You know, like it's not just me. Um, and actually the more I've got into the jobs, uh, the more I was like, actually, probably in the context of a squiggly career, you'll all have a job at some point that feels a bit like this or a lot like this. And so, actually, if you had some ways of finding your way through those moments, and we'll kind of talk about why they are particularly hard. Um, that would actually be really helpful, which I know is quite practical, but that's what that is what we're going to do. Um, have you had jobs, Helen?

[00:10:14]>> Yes, I was reflecting on this. I think I have had >> two and a half.

[00:10:21]>> Okay.

[00:10:21]>> One part one.

[00:10:22]>> Well, yeah. The two were just completely like just completely, you know, like if it disappeared, it wouldn't matter. I mean, both of them did disappear after a period of time. That was the evidence. I mean, I moved on to other things, but it it I was pretty clear.

[00:10:36]>> Not when I not on day one, but within a couple of months of >> Yeah. I don't think you ever apply for one, right? You don't apply. I hope you don't. Please, may I have one?

[00:10:45]have one of your I've heard you have some going high paid pointless jobs. I'd love one. We'll talk about why high paid pointless jobs aren't great. Uh but I definitely had two that I realized and then I had one where I could kind of see the potential.

[00:10:59]I what I was, you know, I like I had to almost be in the pointless job to see the potential so I could create a better one. So I'm going to say like there was definitely some time in Pointless, but it was I got to turn it into something much much better. Um yeah, two and a half. What about you? Um, one definitely one like completely pointless. Yeah. And I and I knew >> and was really unsure what to do about it.

[00:11:22]>> How quickly did you know?

[00:11:24]>> Six weeks. Like a month in. Six weeks.

[00:11:26]Like definitely within the first 90 days. Um, and it was a job actually I was really excited about. So I you know like I didn't think it was going to I was like brilliant. I was really looking forward to it. So on paper not pointless in reality pointless. Um, and I think it's really disappointing and frustrating. And one of the things actually, um, David Grober does talk about is just how stressful it is. So, it sounds like it shouldn't be stressful because actually one of the things about a lot of these jobs is you are relatively well paid. Some of them are very well paid, but you are relatively well paid. Um, but they talk about like the psychological damage and harm of almost pretending cuz usually you're in this very weird masking moment of being like >> scared like disappointed a bit but more scared because I knew I wasn't doing a very good job and I knew if people were going to critically evaluate me it it was not going to look good. like I wasn't doing anything of a significant I was you know maybe talking good talk cuz I felt like I had to um not that I wanted to I wanted to do do good work but I felt a bit scared about what like this is a really risky career position to be in because you're not doing good valuable work.

[00:12:43]>> Yeah. So you're often having to like pretend to quite a lot of people >> that what you do is worth it and you sort of know that it's not. Um you have like you have like a funny relationship.

[00:12:55]people have talk about like having a funny relationship with maybe people who work for them or the people that they work for like do they think it's pointless or so you know like and it's exhausting that's one of the things that definitely comes through so there's lots of stories and examples in the book um and people just describing how it feels and people like you know at the start people are a bit like oh okay maybe it's easy yeah >> um but I think quite quickly it becomes really draining >> because just because of like your you imagine every day and I I do actually really remember this being like every day felt so long. you just haven't often you haven't got enough to do and often you do try I think every most people try to be useful you know maybe you ask a few of the questions like is there anything else and get involved in or what else could I do and then you just sort of have this realization of like uh it's not >> there isn't really like this isn't this basically isn't a real job um but maybe it's there because your manager needed to keep the head count >> yeah that's what I was going to say why were yours why was yours Um, do you know what's interesting? I wonder whether So, I had applied for a job in this team, a more senior job, and didn't get it, >> right?

[00:14:08]>> And then they but they wanted me anyway.

[00:14:11]And so I wondered what I wonder whether in hindsight it wasn't a real job because they were just like, "We really want her, but not quite in the job that they'd advertised for because I wasn't quite ready for that yet."

[00:14:22]>> And so did they sort of make up a job for me because almost like they wanted me, which is flattering, right? They wanted what what I could bring but then there wasn't the actual work to do. May maybe >> what about you?

[00:14:35]I think one I was hired in the context of organizational change and so a bit like they wanted I think they wanted me but the change hadn't they knew change was coming and I just had to kind of sit >> in that situ almost sit and wait for the change and so there's a period of time where I was just like well this work isn't valuable and that job got made redundant so that wasn't great. Um, one I think there was a lot of politics that were getting in the way of the position.

[00:15:03]Um, and had to kind of wade wade through that.

[00:15:07]>> Um, actually two two was about politics.

[00:15:09]Two is about like it it needed to be different but making it different was limited by like politics and dynamics in the company. But one was yeah organizational change which I honestly think if you're going particularly big companies it's very likely that you're going to wade into that at some point whether you've applied for a new job or it happens around you like you're you might have been a great job and then suddenly because it's no longer organizational strategic priority it can feel a bit but you're still doing it.

[00:15:37]>> Yeah. And people I mean some of the examples and people do laugh at themselves which it is it sounds really bleak but there is definitely a people not taking themselves too seriously in some of the stories and one person described like basically being a manager and he was like I think it was a he he's like oh I've got a really capable team so basically they just don't need me you know like my job is like to maybe like delegate work to them but he was like but they don't they already know what they're doing so >> essentially I just sort of have to like pretend to be in charge of these people who are already incredibly capable. Um, and he was like, "Yeah, it's just like not worth it. They just don't." But at the same time, you know, the real I suppose the much more serious dilemma is then people do like acknowledge, "Oh, yes, but then I've got a mortgage to pay and and I can't just Who doesn't want to be in a more useful impactful job?" But then, you know, people feel really stuck.

[00:16:32]>> Yeah. I don't go I think you should make me redundant because I'm not. You're like, "No, no. I I think you should just find me a better job."

[00:16:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and actually I do know I know one or two people who I think now that I've kind of learned a bit more about this probably did know that they were in pointless jobs and actually did a really good job of making themselves redundant so that they could do something different, >> you know, and and it almost was quite admired as like a oh, we can save money on this >> senior person who probably is paid a lot of money. Um and then they were very open to doing something different in that company or they were quite open to leaving and going somewhere else. But again that doesn't work for everyone all the time.

[00:17:12]>> Um so having when we both had the realization that we had at least both had done one and I think I've had a few part ones as well.

[00:17:19]>> We have then tried to come up with some ideas. Um, and we thought we would take it in turns to actually talk about things that have kind of worked for us or some which are sort of more prompts that we think might be might be useful.

[00:17:32]Um, do you want to start something that worked for you in those?

[00:17:35]>> Um, I think I've got three things. Do you want me to go through all three?

[00:17:39]>> Let's take turns.

[00:17:40]>> Take turns. Um, so I think the first one is a framing one. So I've got some things that are very very practical but I think this is more of a like psychology type thing which is I think look at your jobs as experiences rather than as an identity. So I think you know if you go into a job as a I don't know it doesn't have to be a head of but whatever the job is and you like you identify with that job and the title and I don't know the status or significance and what this means for you in your career. I think then when that isn't working, it kind of hits quite hard cuz you you've like created this very emotional connection to the identity of that job and what that means for your development, all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:21]Whereas I think if you and that links to something Seth Goden said on the podcast years ago when he came on our podcast years and years ago and he was talking about like treating your career as a series of projects and experiences and it's always kind of stuck with me that like if you just think like what is this experience teaching me like rather than my identity is connected to this role this this is no longer the role I'm wanting so what does it mean for me and my identity rather than getting into that trap which is quite like significant just think like >> this is an experience of any >> um this is my experience right now like what what what can I gain from this experience and kind of know that there'll be another and I'll talk about what I did to get to another but I just think just try not to personally identify too much with the position >> because that's where I think it becomes quite quite challenging that's my first thing a framing thing what's yours >> my first one was something that I actually did do in that in the my probably my most pointless job I think was I found work from someone and somewhere else. So I think I had tried first well can I have some work can I have some more work from the person I was working for and that team and I think once I started to have that realization of like this is a bit made up and I do remember thinking I'm going to have a CV in a year's time and those bullet points are going to be blank >> like I don't know what those bullet points are going to say cuz I'm not not doing anything. Um and then but I did work with some other teams and other teams that I was like thinking their work does seem more useful and it's quite connected to what I do but it's not quite the same and I sort of attached myself a little bit to like that area and that person and I think probably made quite clear that I'd got capacity that I could support and I couldn't you obviously can't just because also there's like this fiction they they he uses that word like fiction there's sort of this fiction that you're having to try and maintain that you do have this other job. Um, so you can't just be like, I'll just do 100% of my time.

[00:20:20]>> Such a good term.

[00:20:21]>> Yeah. Um, elsewhere. But I do I I can remember it now. I really remember this project that I worked on for a different leader um with someone else in like a different team and I just put loads of effort into it, loads more time than it needed. I basically did then put like energy into that, a lot of enthusiasm and it was also really interesting and it felt really >> meaningful and real and quite different to what to like the other job that I was meant to be doing.

[00:20:49]>> Um, and that was you usually there are teams where they do they've like they need help, they need support and you might have something to offer. Um, and that really helped me to build some new relationships with a different part of the company. um gave me some energy because I was oh I was actually doing some work that I kind of cared about um and then I went to work in that team and and so it was also my route out of that role into another role in the same company. So it's interesting you know you can have a job in one team and then I moved into one of my favorite ever jobs >> in that same company. Yeah. Um so I'm just like can you >> It's sort of like a bit of a sideways scan. Can you look at other teams, other areas, other people? And you don't even have to say the words out loud, right?

[00:21:35]But I bet people sort of know, oh, Sarah in that job, in that team, she probably got this. She's probably got a bit of spare capacity. Can I talk to those people about my strengths, the ways I could be useful, what I could do, and just see if I can sort of find myself some opportunity.

[00:21:50]>> Yeah, that worked.

[00:21:51]>> My second one's very, very similar to that. So I almost imagined that my team um was in like like the center and then I kind of did you know your scan. I was like what where are all the like other teams that I should be useful for? Like I was like who should care about the work that I'm doing? Like what other teams were other managers? And then I because I thought well maybe maybe I'm missing part I was like maybe I'm missing something. So I went to have some conversations with those people and I was like how is my team useful for you? like what are your priorities? How can the work that my team helps to solve it? Um and sometimes they're like well probably probably not sometimes I was like okay you're just validating that I'm in a job. But what what I was able to do in those conversations is a build a relationship but I was I was really conscious that some of my experience and expertise was not being surfaced in that job. So people didn't know >> okay >> what I could bring because that job wasn't allowing me to demonstrate it. So when I had those conversations with people under the guise of I really want to understand how my team can help your team and how we can work together which was a genuine question but in in that conversation I was like oh okay if that's one of the things you're working on I've got some contacts over here or one of the things I did previously was this it could be useful and so it gave me I didn't I didn't really say oh I'd love to work on that project I probably didn't do what you were doing which I could have done but it was more I wanted to showcase that I was more than this job.

[00:23:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:23]>> Um and I think that helped me to build some advocacy because where I didn't have like evidence in the job and and I would have loved to have evidence I didn't have at that time. What I did build was some initial advocacy people that would have said, "Oh, but Helen Tup is good. Like she's she's she's good.

[00:23:41]She's valuable." Um and I just I had quite a lot of those conversations and they were only really basing it. I was trading on my past experience cuz I hadn't done it in the job that I was in today. But that definitely that definitely opened some doors for me.

[00:23:54]People brought me into meeting conversations and like oh Helen will have a perspective on that or even at some events people would sit next to me >> cuz I like I wasn't they wouldn't sit next to me cuz I was doing good work but they sit they sat next to me because we had a good conversation.

[00:24:07]>> Um and I that was helpful to me when I was like almost every day losing a bit of confidence.

[00:24:13]>> Yes. Which is rubbish. Um yeah, cuz my next one was really practical. Um which is related a little bit to that, which is get out of the office as much as you can.

[00:24:24]>> I do think um as much as you can get away with basically. I think this is the moment for events, communities, career conversations, mentoring, volunteering, coffees with people who work in your company, you know, sort of um I think those things stop you feeling trapped by where you are in that moment because I think you can't always move out of these jobs super fast. You might be able to. And I think if you can, great. Um almost like the longer you're in them, I think probably the worse you will you will feel. Um because my final point basically is like leave. So you know and you're like but you can't you can't do that overnight and you've just got into a job and like I was saying quite quickly I knew wasn't going to be right but you can't just make that change. But probably what you can do is think >> okay well what are the events related to like this job that could be interesting?

[00:25:16]Who else could I go and talk to? Can I talk to people in similar jobs in other companies? Try and find out if their jobs are also pointless or or have they found a way to make it useful. Um and so I did a good job I think during that time like I did quite I built quite a lot of like mentoring relationships. Um I focused a bit more on like my career.

[00:25:36]Um I started to think about like things I might apply for for learning. If I look at that time I'm like ah so I managed to do an MBA at that time. Yeah >> of course I did. I got loads of capacity.

[00:25:47]>> Yeah.

[00:25:48]>> You know like I I not all of that time but I was doing an MBA. I applied for the marketing academy which is something both H and I have done.

[00:25:56]>> I could do that. I don't remember I don't remember that being stressful for my job because I wasn't doing loads in my actual job. Um I used to go to the gym every day at lunchtime.

[00:26:04]>> Wow.

[00:26:05]>> Every single day.

[00:26:06]>> Like there was a gym in the building.

[00:26:08]>> Now you say it I'm like oh learning networking and going to the gym.

[00:26:12]>> Yeah. Which >> I know it sounds good but it doesn't sound good. and but ultimately it definitely didn't make up for because obviously they are really small pockets of time and then you're still at work for ages and I really remember thinking and those were like the best parts of my day like the one career com I'd have like one mentoring meeting in a week and I really look forward to it or like going to the gym was probably like it helped me survive the day I think rather than like energize my day because you know what you're going like back to or whatever in the afternoon. So I I think it's a it's a stick all of those things I think are slightly more sticking plaster than sorting it. But sometimes you need the sticking plasters for at least a bit because you can't you can't just change straight away. Was very fit.

[00:26:55]>> I remember I remember the times.

[00:26:57]>> Um my third one I don't think either of those authors would like me for saying this. So I can imagine either of those authors would like us a person.

[00:27:05]They might be like because my third one and and the reason I say is because I know I know not everyone would do this but I did genuinely do this and it did work for me was that I pitched a new position in two of those jobs that were pointless. I I don't even know where I got the confidence from to do it. But in two of them I pitched a new position. I went to my manager in one. I went to someone senior in another and I said I think like bas basically I think there's a better structure. I think there's a better opportunity for the business. I definitely pitched it as a business rather than just me. like I think I could be doing something better. I kind of pitched the opportunity >> and then put myself in a position to do the job. Um and I think I did that and if if that had been a no then I probably would have done the leave thing. But um in both of those instances it worked out. I created myself new positions. Now I don't think that would I don't think that would happen every time. Um but I literally had you know a a a presentation with I think this is what the structure would be. this is the opportunity and actually it had been informed to your point about get outside both of those had been informed by what I'd seen in other organizations.

[00:28:10]>> Okay.

[00:28:10]>> Like oh they're doing something that we're not and I kind of used that as evidence to be like oh it could look like this. Um so that that did work for both those and it meant that I moved into a position which was better for the business and better for me. My other thought was can you use time to upskill yourself? Usually uh or pretty universally actually if you're in one of these jobs you have got time which there'll be loads of times in your squiggly career where the exact opposite is true but this is one of those times where often you're a bit like you might be a bit bored or you do have capacity.

[00:28:43]Um and I'm like okay well can you be the person who's learning loads and sharing that with your team? Um, and at the moment given like everyone's trying to upskill themselves on AI >> with whatever AI you can use in your company, could you do that? Could you use could you do 10 minutes of an AI skill sprint that we've done? Could you do that every day? And I I would be looking for upskilling. I was also thinking back to again what did I actually do to kind of think about because I don't think I actually did upskill myself loads during that time, but what I did do was start side projects um and just made stuff up. And I mean some of the stuff I think it was me just needing creative out like an outlet to to do something but they still felt work related. And I think this actually is quite a controversial one because I have spoken to people who are probably in this situation almost quite recently and they are so drained by basically how their job is. They're like I've got no they have nothing left over to do. they they would quite like to do a side project or something that they're really interested in, but they're just like, "Oh, yeah, but all of the capacity to do that is being taken away by pretending masking the job." So, I don't think this is for everyone. I think when I was in that job, that was a thing that kind of gave me energy. So, actually having something that I was just like making up and coming up with ideas and it was actually, do you know what it was? It was pure escapism because it wasn't a proper side project at all. It was I'd like make stuff up or have ideas about who else I wanted to work for.

[00:30:20]>> I was like dreaming and like visualizing because I didn't want to be where I was.

[00:30:25]>> And so it was it was my form of escapism. It wasn't it wasn't a side project actually in any form. Nothing that anyone could have ever seen. Um I just made it up for myself. And probably in some ways it was a side project. But I I convinced myself that it was I don't know. I I think I just enjoyed it. Yeah.

[00:30:43]>> Um and that was enough. It was enough to have that kind of escapism. So it I don't think it has to be a side project, but >> it's sort of something that I think that makes you feel better about yourself. I think that's what it did because like you said, you were like, "Oh, my confident was being knocked a bit every day." I think that's what these jobs do to you because you start to question your own value and your own worth and have I got any strengths and all like all all of those question and is it me if someone else is in this job would it be brilliant?

[00:31:12]>> So when do you leave cuz that was your last thing. When do you leave?

[00:31:15]>> When do you leave? Well I don't know. I when I was in this sort of a job which was quite a while ago now I think there was more stigma than there is now about leaving fast. So I know quite a lot of people now who have gone into jobs and sometimes they just haven't worked out but sometimes I think they have figured out quite quick this is this is pointless like this there's there's not like a real job here and I think people are calling it faster and moving on quickly. Yeah.

[00:31:44]>> And just being really honest about wasn't a good fit. Job job didn't work out. And I think that's a brilliant thing to do. And if you can, you know, obviously find something else cuz for most of us, you can't just be like, "Oh, bye." Yeah, >> you know, if you can find something else >> in that organization you're in or in another organization, I think calling it quick, if you feel really confident that this is not a good job and there's not a real job here and if it disappeared tomorrow, like no one would care and no one would notice. Obviously, you want to do all the stress testing of like, does it need a bit more time or >> can I do job crafting?

[00:32:19]>> Can things change? Like all the things that we would always that we would always advocate for. But I do wonder whether sometimes you just know. You just know. And if you do, I think the faster you can get out, the better.

[00:32:32]Because essentially everything that you and I have talked about today are just like survival tactics.

[00:32:39]>> Um, which are not fun. If you're doing a job that you really enjoy and that's really useful and and meaningful, you'd still do loads of things that we talked about today >> and that and they would be great, but we're really only talking about them as like coping strategies.

[00:32:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. fast. Ideally, >> I just think, oh, I'm just thinking about people that are in um you know, like because I have that like I fix it.

[00:33:00]I just people that are in this right now, oh my gosh, >> don't hold it. Solve it.

[00:33:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. I like I just want to give like I give them a hug because it just feels really hard, but I'm also like I just think, >> oh, knowing you're not alone and the benefit of community and how can we help you? I'm just thinking about things like cuz we do occasionally we do like squiggly quizers in conversation on LinkedIn where there's like a community of curious people that are joining our LinkedIn lives and then we do the sprints which will be in September and again that's like thousands of people in the community who are learning together and I just think I know we're not supposed to solve it but I feel like I feel like I just want to know I want people to know that we do have this brilliant Squiggly Careers community of lots of like-minded learners and if you've ever considered joining one of our conversations which are all free. It might be a good thing to do if you are feeling very disconnected from your work right now like connect with the Squidly Quick community instead.

[00:33:56]>> I also hope that it feels reassuring to hear both of us talk about it because you know we we've had more than one between us. We've had quite a few and that is some of those were quite far into our careers. We've done quite a lot of work on self-awareness and like learning and growth >> and you know sort of that it's not your fault like you can just find yourself sometimes in these situations. Um and like I said I I don't I think it will happen to everybody.

[00:34:25]>> Um cuz initially when I started reading it I was like oh no like they're talking here because a lot of the examples will be I don't know like corporate finance or whatever. So I was like >> corporate finance.

[00:34:36]>> Yeah I know. I know. Um, and I say that like I do know people who work in that area who do really good stuff, but a lot of them are like law or corporate those kind of things. And so initially I was like, oh, like this is not really me.

[00:34:48]And actually when you look at the definitions, we both looked at some of the definitions. He divides up the jobs into like five different types. And you were like, you and I were like, oh no, we haven't really done like he says one of them is like box ticking jobs where you're just there to tick a box or duck tapers, people who are hired to fix problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. So you initially both both of us went oh no we don't fit in those categories and then when you really think about it you're like yeah but everybody has their own version and I know that feeling so we probably can't solve it overnight.

[00:35:17]I don't think these things are necessarily solvable overnight but hopefully it's helpful to hear >> and maybe there are some actions we can help with a bit.

[00:35:25]>> Well let us know. We love we love feedback and we'd love to hear from you.

[00:35:28]So you can always email us. We're Helen and Sarah.com.

[00:35:32]>> And thank you so much for listening. I'm back with you again soon. Bye for now.