Caller SCREAMS After His God Argument Collapses

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]So what God do you believe in?

[00:00:03]>> Well, I believe that God is uh divine consciousness, a loving divine consciousness. Um it's not the creator of existence. It's uh it's inexistence. Existence is a mystery. Uh spontaneous combustion or eternal. We don't know. We can't wrap our human brains around it. But we can't know that the the um shaper and um conscious there's a conscious force in existence that's shaping and sustaining a universe which is a collective conscience.

[00:00:33]>> The evidence for this would be >> um logic and reason. So um for example we can logically conclude that there's no one who existed before existence. So that's one step in understanding that there is no creator of existence. But within we do know that we exist. That's a logical conclusion. And within existence there is a conscious force that that tends to lean towards life and construction. Like >> what's the evidence for this conscious force?

[00:01:05]>> That there's a a tendency towards life.

[00:01:09]There's a tendency towards uh like there's 8 billion people. There's trillions of plants and animals that live and continue to try to thrive to live. There's something that seems to be >> 90 99% of the organisms that have ever lived on this earth are now extinct and will never live again. That seems to me to be a tendency towards non-life. We're just part of the lucky 1% that seem to have made it so far tenuously holding on to life on this planet where 97% of the water will kill us and the sun will kill us and there's lots of other things that will kill us. I'm not seeing this tendency towards life. vast vast vast majority of the universe is lethal to any form of life. Um but but even even if we were to grant that there is a tendency of the universe toward life, it's a nonsecard to say therefore there is like some divine consciousness. One one doesn't follow from the other >> which isn't God according to you as well. use reason and logic. Like if if there's a car driving on the freeway, you could you could use logic to say that there's someone in the car driving it, you know? Well, before you know, >> we can we can for that and I can articulate the logic, but articulate the logic for life exists in the universe, therefore there's a divine consciousness. Go ahead.

[00:02:29]>> Do I correctly understand you? Because you see, you came in and you said that God is not this creator. So, you seem to think that there is a creative energy, but that isn't God. And then, as well as this unprovable creative energy that we so far haven't heard a convincing argument for, as well as that, to add insult to injury, we now also have a thing called a god, which isn't the creative energy, but we need to believe in this god for some other reason. All I'm hearing is lots and lots of claims.

[00:02:57]A kind of cool story, bro, but no actual evidence for any of them.

[00:03:03]Well, you said a lot there. Um, I don't know what you want me to answer first.

[00:03:08]Um, >> we're trying to clarify the the reasons that you that you have for the the beliefs you're expressing, which are quite unusual. So, most people don't come in here and say, "I believe in God, but God isn't the creator of the universe." Most people think that those two things are the same, right? So, if I understand you correctly, I stand to be corrected. But if I understand correctly, you said you believe in God, but God isn't all powerful and God isn't the creator of everything. So there is something else which is the creator of everything that you're alluding to by referencing laws of logic and things like that. And so that there's something else which isn't God which is the creator of everything. A nameless thing of some sort. And then you also have a god. But I just don't see any evidence for any of this stuff. So where are you getting all of this from? Cuz it this just sounds a bit like do they call it bong rip philosophy? Give me some evidence for any of this.

[00:04:01]Okay. So, we got to take one thing at a time. So, first thing, let's just see if we could agree on this.

[00:04:07]>> There's nothing that existed before existence because that would be a contradiction within itself. Is that correct?

[00:04:13]>> Yes.

[00:04:13]>> Yeah. And I don't know if there ever was a before existence.

[00:04:16]>> There's no reason to think. Exactly.

[00:04:18]Right. I agree with that too. So, it could be >> eternal, right?

[00:04:22]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. All right. So, we agree on that. Yeah.

[00:04:26]>> So, we're not going to say that the the definition of the word God does not mean a creator of existence. That's so that doesn't have to be if anyone says that that's that's their own interpretation of God.

[00:04:35]>> Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. You don't have to believe that to believe in a god. Some people believe in Thor and Thor isn't like believed to be the creator of the universe. So, I'm good with that.

[00:04:44]>> Okay.

[00:04:45]>> So, now the next step is what is an existence? What what what will be the when you look at the word definition of the word god, it's not a question of if there's a god. just according to the definition without any bias. It's just like what is God? What is the mostating force of I don't I don't accept that.

[00:05:02]Yeah. So, >> no, it's fine because all I need to know is your definition of the word God.

[00:05:06]>> No, I'm going to I'm going to explain why I disagree with what you said and then you can respond. So, you you said that it's not a question of if a god exists. Yes, it is a question. I'm sure I could find leprechauns in the dictionary. Just because it's in the dictionary doesn't mean it exists. So yes, I if you look up Miriam Webster, they're going to have the classic theism definition and they're going to have the more broad definition. That's definition one and two. I don't believe either exist in actual reality. So So yeah, existing in the dictionary does not necessarily mean existing period.

[00:05:41]>> Well, one of the definitions is what is the most powerful force in the universe?

[00:05:47]So that's not a question of if there's a most powerful force in the universe.

[00:05:51]It's just saying what is the most powerful force?

[00:05:53]>> That's actually that's actually not one of the definitions.

[00:05:56]>> Oh, go ahead.

[00:05:57]>> Okay. Yes, it is in the Mar Webster's dictionary. You can look it up right now.

[00:06:02]>> Okay. So, again, it doesn't mean that the thing actually want to go by.

[00:06:06]>> Do you do do you agree that a word existing in the dictionary and being defined in the dictionary doesn't mean that the thing being defined actually exists in reality?

[00:06:18]>> Yes. in this particular case because it's saying it's not saying is there a most powerful force. They're just saying like let's just sit here and speculate and see what is the most powerful force in the universe in existence or in the universe. So it's not a question of if there is the most powerful force. You just have to decide what is the most powerful force.

[00:06:38]>> The most powerful force doesn't doesn't even have a coherent meaning. Like like if I if I if I push a if I push a ball along the ground, I'm applying a force to it. And if my brother who's stronger than me pushes a ball along the ground harder than I do and the ball accelerates more under F= ma, he's applying a more powerful force. But does that mean >> talk about a force in the context of God and religion, we're talking about a force that creates and sustains life in the >> but that's making a whole load of assumptions that would have to be demonstrated that such a thing exists.

[00:07:12]Right? So do you see what you did there?

[00:07:13]>> That God doesn't exist.

[00:07:14]>> You you equivocated you equivocated between the most powerful application of force must exist because we know that there are instances in which forces are applied. Therefore, one of them must be mathematically of greatest magnitude. And you then said because we know that must exist, we are now entitled to believe that there's a creative uh I can't remember exactly what your frame was, what your your framing was, but the last thing you said, the last thing you defined as if recognizing that there's a a most powerful force then defines that thing into existence. All the work is ahead of you to to to do that to show that it exists.

[00:07:53]>> Can you?

[00:07:55]Well, when we say most powerful force, we're looking towards like uh what is the creator and sustainer of the universe.

[00:08:01]>> But you can't but you can't demonstrate that the universe requires a creator or a sustainer. And you've already admitted in this conversation that if we if we accept that there's probably an an unlimited sequence of events and there was never a point where something didn't exist that there isn't a creator.

[00:08:20]>> Well, you have to look at the word universe is different than existence.

[00:08:23]The universe is basically just a collective conscience.

[00:08:26]>> All that the set of all things that exist is the universe.

[00:08:30]>> So I think we can just go with that in in that definition of just being the totality of all things. We can't then jump from that to saying it's a divine consciousness because you would have to first do the work of establishing that anything divine exists. You have not done that. And then you would have to do the work of making the ludicrous claim that everything that exists is consciousness. But I can show you things that exist that are not consciousness.

[00:08:57]So universe cannot be taken to mean exclusively consciousness divine or other or a creator of anything because to call something a creator a >> conscious a consciousness a a divine consciousness is the first thing that appears in existence and then once >> if you believe in magic. Yes. If you believe in magic >> then a divine creator is the first thing.

[00:09:21]>> What is that magic?

[00:09:22]>> What is that magic? Do you have a consciousness?

[00:09:24]>> I have a consciousness. Yes.

[00:09:26]>> Yes. So their consciousness does exist.

[00:09:29]>> It comes from the operation it comes from the operation of my brain. It comes it comes from the operation of something physical which existed consciousness is brains. The only thing that has consciousness is things with the brain.

[00:09:42]>> At the moment at the moment we can tell.

[00:09:44]Yes.

[00:09:45]>> At the moment we don't have any form of consciousness.

[00:09:47]>> No plants don't have conscious particular consciousness.

[00:09:50]>> Animals have brains.

[00:09:52]>> Yeah.

[00:09:54]>> No. Now, particularly animals don't have brains. Like, >> hang on a second.

[00:09:59]Oysters. Oysters aren't conscious. Now, I'm not going to make I'm not going to I'm not going to make the claim that that it is impossible.

[00:10:07]>> I'm talking right now. I'm not going to make the claim that it's impossible for consciousness to arise without a brain because there might be other ways that consciousness that could could happen.

[00:10:18]But the time to But the time to believe that is when it's demonstrated, not when we've had a good old tug on our bong and we've decided that it sounds >> If you're not going to use logic and reason, I'm going to end this call right now. Can you can you >> logic? Logic and reason. Logic and reason aren't going to get you aren't going to get you a license for making the assumption that consciousness can can happen without a brain.

[00:10:42]>> Are you going to be able to use logic and reason? Yes or no?

[00:10:45]>> I use it every day. It seems like you could use a little more >> in this conversation. Are you gonna be able to use that?

[00:10:50]>> I think I'm doing that right now. I think you're just getting a little emotional about the fact that you've made a claim that minds can exist without brains. And I'm saying that whilst that might be true, we have no reason to think it's true. And the time to think it's true is when someone demonstrates >> believe that's not true.

[00:11:10]>> Because you haven't provided anything.

[00:11:11]>> That's not true. If you haven't provided, >> you see all different types of life.

[00:11:15]including fungi and different things that show forms of consciousness.

[00:11:21]>> Ninja here to learn your spiteful cont.

[00:11:31]We're here to have a conversation and you're shouting and you're talking over people. It's very simple. You made a claim. You claimed that there's some sort of divine consciousness.

[00:11:42]John said that our only uh the only thing that we can reasonably infer are actually conscious have brains. You guys >> you claim you you claimed there's more to consciousness. And John said it may John said it may be the case. The time to believe that is when the time to believe that is when there's suffic >> when there is sufficient evidence to believe it.

[00:12:06]>> So if you believe it's true, provide the evidence.

[00:12:11]>> Okay. So enough with enough with the meta. What is your ev what is your evidence that consciousness exists anywhere besides a brain?

[00:12:18]>> Will ignorant >> say willful ignorance if you have no evidence?

[00:12:22]>> Willful weaponized ignorance is what you're spirit.

[00:12:26]>> Okay. All right. Thank you for your cooperation.

[00:12:28]>> Willful apathy.

[00:12:29]>> Okay.

[00:12:29]>> Is what you guys do.

[00:12:30]>> Okay. The thing the thing is let me give you an example. So at the moment rain falls from clouds, right? Every time we we see rain, it comes as a result of condensation from moisture and clouds.

[00:12:42]If I was to say that you can have rain without clouds, you would be entitled to say, "Well, we've never seen rainfall without clouds. By what mechanism could we have rain without clouds?" If I then started jumping up and down and accusing you of being willful, willfully weaponized ignorant, it's a reasonable question to say, "So far we have no evidence at all that consciousness can arise as a result of anything other than something that does thinking, a brain, right? A mind, a brain of some sort."

[00:13:13]>> That's not true, sir.

[00:13:15]>> What would be an So then give So respond to then show us what consciousness can happen without brains. How does that happen? We could even just look at plants for example.

[00:13:27]>> What reason do we have to believe plants are conscious?

[00:13:29]>> Because they have mechanisms to grow continue life >> chemistry. Do crystal hold on these things. Look and reason. Just do sir.

[00:13:42]>> Stop shouting logic.

[00:13:43]>> Let me speak for once man.

[00:13:45]>> I'm trying to do logic and reason. You make one argument at a time. Okay. So argument number one premise.

[00:13:54]Okay. So, you can end it if you want to.

[00:13:58]>> We ask you. We ask you for evidence.

[00:14:01]We're taking them. We're not going to let you.

[00:14:03]>> Another major crash out. This is another major crash out.

[00:14:07]>> Yeah. So, one at a time, plants grow.

[00:14:11]What is your Please draw, please draw, please draw the logical conclusion from this. X grows, therefore X is conscious.

[00:14:19]Do crystals grow? things grow throughout the universe that are not conscious. So we're taking >> he's talking but but finish your point Sean because it's a good point.

[00:14:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. So so I mean >> cuz I basically we asked for ev evidence that plants are conscious. So his first argument was plants grow. Growing is not a unique trait to something that is conscious. There are many things that grow all throughout nature or what have you. There's no logical entailment that X grows therefore X is conscious. And so I just want to take them one at a time.

[00:14:56]Yeah. One argument at a time.

[00:14:57]>> He he wasn't he wasn't match fit. So even if you can say something like look plants grow towards the light that looks like conscious behavior, right? It's responding to the environment. If you take a plant and it's growing towards the left because that's where the window is. And then you rotate it to a different position and it starts growing towards the right because now that's where the window is. You could go, "Aha, the plant is conscious." It's chemistry.

[00:15:20]It's chemistry. That's how photosynthesis works. It's chemistry.

[00:15:25]There's no reason to think that plants are conscious. That is an asinine argument. It's idiotic. We have precisely zero evidence of consciousness arising without a brain anywhere. Now, I wanted to make the point that that doesn't mean that it can't possibly happen. It might be the case that there are alien species somewhere that don't have brains. They evolve consciousness through some other means that we wouldn't recognize as a brain. Let's put our sci-fi hat on and say some kind of energy field that forms as a result of some special thing that for which there's no analog here. Okay. Okay.

[00:16:02]Well, then that would be an example of consciousness arising as a result of a different physical process that we just don't recognize as a brain, but we would categorize it as some other consciousness. Uh >> or if AI ever becomes conscious >> or if AI ever becomes conscious, >> that could be that could be the case, but you still have a substrate.

[00:16:22]>> You still have a substrate >> physical thing of a physical thing that is creating that consciousness, >> right? None of these things would be divine. Divine is just another word for magic. So, if you find yourself arguing for divine something, stop. Check yourself. You're being silly. You're arguing for wizard stuff. Don't do it.

[00:16:41]It makes you look silly.