In Orthodox Christianity, one's primary identity should be 'Christian' rather than hyphenated identities (e.g., 'American Christian' or 'Russian Christian'), as the martyrs historically responded only with 'I am a Christian' when asked about their identity. The canonization process in the Orthodox Church involves a commission investigating the candidate's life, writings, and testimonies, followed by votes from bishop councils, with the final canonization requiring approval from another bishop's council. Father Seraphim Rose, who converted to Orthodoxy in the 1960s and died in 1982 at age 48, is on the path to becoming a saint, with the Munich bishop council voting to continue the process. His writings on nihilism, orthodoxy, and modern society have influenced many converts, though his canonization process involves examining his associations with problematic figures like Father Herman.
St. Seraphim Rose??? Your Identity in Christ plus Q+AAñadido:
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>> Welcome to the St. Maximus Society.
Christ is risen.
>> Truly, he is risen.
>> Thank you, fathers. You're so good at that. It's like, you know exactly when I'm going to say it. Uh thank you so much for being here. Thank you to our live audience. Thank you to our online audience. If you haven't done so, please like, share, subscribe this station.
This uh this channel is growing and uh all glory to God. Tonight, we're going to talk about a few things. We're going to talk about identity. How do you identify? I ident I'm just we're gonna Yeah.
>> I want to know now.
>> Exactly. Yeah. I do not use uh pronouns in my online profile. No. How do I >> at all?
>> Exact. Yeah. Exactly. You if you can't tell.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. All right. Yeah. Um >> what is your primary identity? We're going to talk also about uh the possibility of Father Sarapim Rose becoming a saint. That is very topical and it's inside of our jurisdiction, father. So, we're going to talk about that. And it just so happens that he has a lot to say about your primary identity being in Christ. Of course, he's writing during, you know, the tumultuous hippie revolution. He's right there in San Francisco. So, he sees a lot of this going on. And, uh, he's actually very prophetic in a lot of the things he was writing about that are happening right now. So, we're going to talk about that.
And, of course, everyone's favorite part. We're going to do Q&A with the fathers here. Uh it seems to be that most of you are just waiting until an hour in and then you're joining the live stream because you want to see us answer questions. So hopefully we can do that for you. We are accepting super chats at any time and uh there are three churches being built in this area in Roor. So glory to God for all things. Father's Orthodoxy continues to grow. So this is a good thing.
>> Yes. Glory to God. It's finally it's finally getting to North America in a real way in a very fast way which is a challenge to the infrastructure. That's why we need not not only the physical and uh spiritual infrastructure but it's a challenge to the church as a whole but it's a good challenge. It >> it certainly is a challenge to the infrastructure literally quite literally. We've uh yeah physically so things are you know being upgraded and pray for us that things don't crumble literally during the stream like they did last week during the stream. So it's okay. The toilet is not currently overflowing. So we seem to be doing well. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Exactly. So fathers, let's talk first about uh the possibility of Father Sarapim Rose becoming a saint. I think if correct me if I'm wrong, the first Americanb born saint.
>> No.
>> No. Okay. Inside the Orthodox Church.
>> He's the first he'd be the first Roore American Roore, right? Saint >> um I think we would uh Peter Peter the Ali.
I mean would be considered >> Alaska wasn't part of America, was it? I guess >> not yet.
>> Yeah, but I mean we're sort of grandfathering them in. Uh but then Sebastian Dabovich I believe of uh uh he may be the first bishop. He may be the he's one of the early early ones, not the first, >> but certainly most the saints of America were born outside of America, right? we see the icons of the saints of America and uh most of them were born in Greece.
They're born in Russia. So it's it's an exciting time. I know that a lot of people in the church are excited about the possibility of you know new saints being canonized by the church. What is your take on the church's decision to further go down the >> first one was actually St. Sebastian Dabovich who was born in San Francisco in 1800 the first Americanb born saint.
>> Okay.
>> Sorry to interrupt. Uh >> so if father Sarapin becomes a saint it's certainly looking that way he will be a modern Americanborn saint.
>> He was born in 1934 I believe and uh first convert he'd be the first convert um saint in America and uh yeah it looks like he's very much on the road. The council of bishops meeting in Munich voted on Monday to accept the proposals of the commission that was appointed under Bishop James and uh but it was kind of confused when it came out.
There's going to be a little bit more in the process. It's not so people were very quick to say he's not he's not canonized yet. But the way it was written the it seems like it's an eventuality. It's just they have to go through they have to do due diligence.
Bishop wrote an article basically saying we have to look into his lives, his life, people who knew him, and I think very much his writings.
>> Yeah, for sure. We're going to talk about uh some of those writings tonight.
Again, um he he had a lot of good things to say. He certainly lived in more modern times, which is I I think that's why he resonates with a lot especially of the converts you see nowadays to orthodoxy. for for some reason uh social media is alive with posts saying real cord glorifies uh >> and and so I I would just caution people against jumping to conclusions and against taking the word of any social media post that is not from an official uh real outlet.
>> Father Nathan, are you saying that you cannot trust all of the things that are on the internet? Is that what I just heard?
>> I am, but uh >> Oh no. You know, that's not news >> except the St. Maximus Society, >> but it is it is it is sometimes hard to know which channels to trust.
>> There there was a leak somebody leaked the information out >> that there was a vote on Monday and uh but the it was a vote to continue the process, right? And and it was a very important vote because it it seems like the way they in their statement they basically said it seems like an eventuality and not not 100% but like 90% it's on the horizon. Yeah. uh one another bishop's council will actually have to uh vote to do the actual canonization because it can't be done by Senate is my understanding.
>> Are we having audio issues, George?
>> Is it me? Not me.
>> Do my best.
>> Maybe tilted down towards you. Uh certainly people are going to have icons of Father Saraphim. They're they're going they already have them. Yeah.
they're going to be venerating him. So people very much want Yeah. Exactly. So and this is historically we see this >> as the church often reacts to the public treating certain people as a saint. They they're seeing them venerated. I believe there's one church that had all is already kind of canonized him. Um which is which is interesting. Well, the an old counterist jurisdiction uh did it, but also the metropolitan uh Nicholas of Al Kakalaki in Georgia did it in his dasis. So, and they're canonical.
>> Well, there's always been a tradition of local veneration saints where it's not churchwide necessarily, but in a certain locality.
>> Yeah.
>> So, >> one of the stipulations for making someone a saint is that local veneration. Yeah. and having a uh a proven kind of track record of people who are receiving miracles and receiving benefit from the >> that's an interesting thing about orthodoxy. It's not as you know the the Roman church a top down. It's often you see orthodoxy from the bottom up. It's it's the the layman of the church that begin to do something and you know the clergy kind of take notice and you know the bishops take notice and of course there's going to be investigations done. Nothing is formalized yet but uh people are excited.
Yeah. No, it's it's a great it's a to have a saint, monastic saint who's not a martyr or anything like that. Uh to grow up, as you said, during a very very difficult time in American history. I don't know if we I guess maybe all times are, but I mean he became a uh he became Orthodox in the early 60s in San Francisco when people were doing everything but becoming Orthodox, >> right? And he lived through he died as a very young man but he lived through um a very difficult time not only in America but in the Orthodox church through the through the late 60s the '7s and he died in 1982 reposed in the Lord. He was only 48 years old. So he was I think he was an Orthodox for exactly 20 years.
>> Yeah. And I mean the the picture of his repose is certainly quite famous. You see this very at peace look upon his face. He's smiling and it's it's something I think we should all want to attain to. Hopefully, we die, you know, and with this just this grin knowing that the Lord is with us.
>> Remarkably similar to the postmortem uh pictures of St. John Maximovich.
Interestingly, >> and this you you mentioned that, but that's a very interesting thing because both of these men are in the same, you know, area of the world at the same time, right? And the these are these are men that are constantly having to push back against the modern revolutions of the world. Fathers, I want to tie that in with our identity in Christ as you know orthodox Christians. What should our primary identity be other than Christian? Should it be something else? What got this started is that Father Maximus and I were talking about there there's a lot of people online where you know on their online profile you will see nothing about them being a Christian. You will see nothing about anything that they're in the Orthodox Church or anything like that which is interesting because that's certainly not the history that we have in the church of the saints. Yesterday we just had you know the commemoration for St. George and all of the martyrs, all of the confessors, certainly their identity is first and foremost in Christ in the church. Can there be any other way? Can there be a hyphenated Christianity? I'm, you know, I'm a often you'll see people see I'm a conservative American or I'm a liberal American or I'm a Africanamean or I'm a whatever it is. this hyphenation, you know, that's placed in between what people have as their primary identity and their secondary identity. Is there any possibility of Christian being the second identity with somebody?
>> Well, I think the thing is I would like to hear what the other fathers say, but I think the thing is we have to realize that being Christian is our eternal identity. M >> so we there's many things in scripture that basically says where we proclaim our belief in Christ publicly the Christ uh declares to the father. So for us to you know you don't necessarily have to have you know put a cross on everything and uh but you should you should the fact that you're a Christian I think should be a big part of who you are. It should be your principal focus even if you have other aspects as well. Father Deacon, is it difficult in today's world, you know, to to do that to walk around saying like, I'm a Christian, you know, I I do this first and foremost, maybe not the best thing to do in like an interview situation. I mean, that that's what people want to know. It's like, is this going to hinder me from my worldly pursuits? And if so, are we denying Christ if we don't mention that we're Christian?
>> Uh I think it's a loaded question because it's like as as we know uh Christians are not you know meant for this world, right? So whatever the world has to offer ultimately it doesn't really lead to anything eternal for us because you know our kingdom is not here it's somewhere else which is why they crucified our Lord. Um but we understand that here in a modern day we are subjected to this type of um I wouldn't say dualism I guess in the political sociological terminology it's cleavage right there's these two different camps that are constantly opposed so I think classically we're at one point in society especially in Europe you know either moving towards statism or anarchism either left or right now in postmodern world we're we're either becoming I I don't know, more um I wouldn't say more liberal or conservative, those I think those are more outdated, but we we're falling into a binary for sure. And in a society where identity politics really fuel if you're an in andout crowd, it makes it difficult to be >> a Christian nowadays because Christianity is persecuted. It is technically part of the out crowd, if you will. But with the growing amount of orthodoxy here we see in America, um I think it now is is a time to really start professing one's uh not only faith as a Christian but uh I kind of identifying what does it mean to be a Christian and that's >> that's very different for other people.
So some some people here in the south I think in business you know they're very affluent and philanthropic in their communities. They love God and they speak about it openly. Maybe somewhere in the northeast, people are much more uh sheltered and, you know, they want to be more secular. It really depends, but it's up to us.
>> Well, they want to be invited to the parties.
>> Yeah, the diddy parties and whatever. If you get an invite, that's great. But it's, you know, what are we trying to fit into? That's what we can align with ourselves with. And >> you me >> I'm trying to fit in my Cassic. I need to like probably lose some pounds, honestly, now that the fast has ended.
Thank you, Father. Might >> I always appreciate making you laugh.
Yeah. You you mentioned the interview situation uh and and St. George whom we commemorated yesterday. He was a soldier in the army and I'm under a pagan emperor and I'm quite positive that when interviewed for that position he didn't start out by saying well I'm a Christian. So uh what he did do was when push came to shove and he had to choose between his politics or between his military service and his Christianity he came forward and said I am a Christian and I will be one until the end of my life >> and his his example and this had to not have been great for the emperor led the emperor's wife to become a Christian as well that that's got to hurt right it's like oh you know really woman you're going to do this right now I'm trying to prove a point and you're on their side That's Yeah.
>> Yep.
>> It's got to be a little tough. Father Maximus, what's your opinion on the world today? Is it Is it difficult for any of you fathers to walk out in public in a cassich with a cross on? Do you get backlash? That's one of the questions that we didn't get to last uh class that somebody asked, but let's talk about it now. Obviously, when you're walking outside, you're walking outside as very clearly a Christian priest. Is is this difficult for you? Did it take adjustment or not so much?
>> No.
Maybe you >> my experience uh I remember first leaving the monastery I was a novice. I was wearing a cask whatever and it took a while to get used to being stared at.
This was in Rsaka, Georgia in the '9s. I would say that my encounters with people when I'm dressed like this cross 99.9% positive, right?
>> Do you get non-Christians coming up to you and asking for blessings and asking >> today somebody we were in the stores today somebody uh was coming walking by and asked for a blessing.
>> Wow.
>> Uh just I don't even know what I don't even know what religion they just blessed me father. She came out and bless >> it's happened to me repeatedly down here. So I my experience I don't know about other people and this is both I mean in the south and in New York City I've never had a negative that correct me I've I've had a negative encounter in the airport. Somebody asked if I was Satanist. Um ridiculous but my my experiences have been very very positive. Father Deacon would what about you? You've been in more places than we have.
>> Oh I don't know about that but I >> I think I think so. I thankfully, you know, I am not uh required to wear a cross as I'm not a priest. So I don't get mistaken for anything crazy. People will just assume something. But I'm not uh you know, constantly wearing my cassic or marasa uh as I have a secular.
>> And you're a deacon.
>> Yeah. As being a deacon. I I think you know in communities where there um you know are a lot of people in the church and they all live around it's pretty common to see uh people in Cassix. you know, father, as you know, in Jordanville, we know are always accustomed to seeing people always in their Catholics, you know, monastics and married clergy. So, it really depends on the the place here in South Florida, uh there's a lot of conservative Christians, so it's not terribly uh inconvenient if you have to go to the grocery store or something and you're still in your CIC.
>> No, the reactions down here have been overwhelmingly positive. I like Father Maximus, I've repeatedly have people approach, ask for a blessing, Orthodox or not. And I there's there are cannons that state specifically that uh Orthodox priests must uh wear their clericals when out and about. And if they don't, they are prohibited from serving the following weekend. It's that's that's the cannon strictly speaking. And it's so important because simply going about dressed as a priest is preaching. It's it's showing people that priests are not something from old 50s movies. They are not extinct. Uh they are alive and well.
And most people are delighted to see that. Like, wow, I didn't know you guys still existed.
>> So, it's it's a wonderful thing.
>> It's a true missionary tool. You know, in Russia when they were under Soviet occupation, to be caught in a CIC would, you know, end your life, I think.
>> Yeah. It went out of style >> indeed. here since we're in a in a free world, you know, more or less, we're able to still preach the gospel in this way. And uh I think in Roor especially, no one's kind of shied away from wearing a cassic or >> well, we we have to appreciate those who have gone before us because I think some of our priests have really paved the way. My own father in Maine, which is not nearly quite so religious a state as Florida, uh uh and certainly not as Catholic estate, uh but he he paved that road. And so now I'm encountering people who have already seen him in the area and I don't have that battle to fight.
>> Father Saraphim Rose says, "Everything in this life passes away. Only God remains. Only he is worth struggling towards. We have a choice to follow the way of this world of society of the society that surrounds us and thereby find ourselves outside of God or to choose the way of life to choose God who calls us and whom our heart in to whom our heart is searching.
He says it very clearly. We really have two choices. We can be aligned with God, aligned with his church or we can choose the world. Father, you mentioned that the world offers us a grave. That's really all it does, right? So, how many there are very famous people from, you know, recent memory that this generation doesn't remember at all, right? But the the saints in heaven, as Father Maximus says, will be remembered eternally.
>> It's so important to remember our death, to remember our deathbed. Yeah.
>> And what are we going to regret if anything on our deathbed? And also how how do we want to be remembered? This is a question that I think about all the time. Like I want to be remembered many things, but the older I get, one of them is not being a great businessman or, you know, a good bodybuilder. It's it's being a good father. It's being a good husband. And lately, it's for me anyway, it seems I want to be a good servant for Christ. Right? I I think most people would agree that if our focus is on being remembered at all that maybe we need to shift that focus. Yeah.
Uh that let that be the result not the goal.
>> It's interesting though because it seems like we're we need then to keep our focus almost on what we know our destination is going to be and that's our own death. Right? This is a difficult thing. You know Christ says don't worry about tomorrow. I think that passage is often you know misinterpreted. Of course, we shouldn't worry about tomorrow, but we need to keep our where we know we're going ever before us cuz isn't that not going to change the way that we're living now?
>> I think it's important all of us if in our daily actions or comingings and goings as it says in the services, who is our audience? Who are we doing these things for? Are we doing it to impress each other? You know, well then nobody's really probably not impressing anyone is the is the sad reality. And I think it was St. John Christristen who said that after basically everyone that knows you dies, you're forgotten.
>> So we were had St. uh George yesterday and how many other tribunes of Dialesian do we remember aside from St. George that year? Nobody. We don't know. They were more popular in this world that world remembered him. But the eternal memory is within the church. So it's it's you don't even get the the fame that they seek is is fleeting.
>> Father, you just mentioned tribune.
Maybe you could talk a little bit about what a tribune was, how how highly prestige St. George actually was in in the world. Their their military sort of organization was complicated and it changed depending on the era. But my understanding is that era tribune would been the equivalent of like a very senior general. And the very fact that he's tribune, he's a senior general and he's 20 years old. I I I speculate I think I said in the sermon yesterday he could have been emperor. Sure.
>> I mean he was certainly what they call the or the course of honor. He certainly uh as a tribune was way way up there. So he was not just some private. He was not some you know he was he was a he was a player and the very fact that the emperor noticed his behavior and the empress noticed his behavior. He was certainly from some aristocratic family.
And even if you go to modern day uh uh the Holy Land, he has there's several houses associated with uh his his his mother and his father and his his life.
They're all churches.
>> Yeah. But he chose Christ.
>> He chose Christ.
>> Yeah. And he's one of the most famous saints probably ever. I mean, even non Orthodox Christians recognize St. George. He's the patron saint of the United Kingdom of England. I was in uh I was in Egypt and there was this long line of people and we were venerating the chains of St. George. Now I don't know where they got them. I don't know anything about that except they looked a lot like the chains of St. Peter that we commemorated in um in Jerusalem. Maybe the Roman chain company made them. I don't know. But we were there was 100 people there. So I we venerated the chains and there was this long line of people and like I said to our guide I said I didn't know there were so many Christians here. It's like they're not Christians. They're Muslims. The Muslims love St. George, too. So, you know, that that's kind there. And there's several saints like that in the Christian world in that in that part of the world were are are beloved universally, including by non-Christians.
>> Yeah. So, I mean, if you want to live a very very holy life, then you probably can be remembered in the world, right? I mean, St. George, St. Nicholas, we have a lot of saints that the world actually recognizes as being very very holy holy people.
>> But that's the only remembrance honestly worth having because think about it secular people who have achieved that kind of immortality through hospitals established or through uh books written things bearing their name. Uh you know they I want my name to live on uh what good is that honestly? I think even of Orthodox Christians who are wellknown the composers and Rakmanov and others I mean even non-orthodox no one loves Serge Rahmanov uh but how many of them love him how many of them pray for him how many have any kind of spiritual connection with him their only connection is with his name and his work not with him >> it's interesting too because a lot of you mentioned hospitals bear the name of saints which >> very true >> it's It's very true. We have a couple of super chats. Elusive Relic sends in $5.
When will Father Nathan be canonized? I met him at a Home Depot once.
>> Apparently, the Home Depot board of directors is considering it. And he probably will be canonized at Home Depot. We're just not sure which one yet.
>> That would be a very appropriate canonization for me.
>> We're working on it. We're going to need more than five bucks to do it.
>> Y Blue Nicholas, thank you so much for your super chat again, Nicholas.
Uh, can you please comment on the GOC priest and his critics of St. Saraphim Rose? My gut feeling is off with this YouTube priest.
>> Uh, >> there are people coming out of the woodwork and criticizing.
>> Yeah, people aren't happy.
>> Yeah. Interesting.
>> One of the genuine Orthodox groups has already canonized him. Uh, I think the Roore under Agatha Angle has already canonized him. But then, yeah, I think or canonized them. They're not They're not >> I think he's referring to the GOC, the Arch Dasis.
>> Oh. Oh, the Bishop Demetrius, retired Bishop Demetrius. Yeah. He he went after him and called him all kinds of name. St. or Father Sarapim is extremely unpopular in sort of the left side of the church because he's associated with traditionalism and quite honestly he's associated with people who have I think misused his his legacy as well. But yeah, it's it's it's a big problem and we're going to see a lot of other stuff come forward um during this process because there's a uh people should read his life, but his abbott, Father Herman Padmashinsky, was a problematic figure.
>> Yeah.
>> And so there's a question of how much of that problem uh problematic behavior uh did Father Saraphim know? Now, as far as I've heard, people there who I knew knew him that he had no indication that anything was going on. And people say, "Well, how is that possible?"
Monasteries are very strange places, you know, and uh you don't it's very hard to know what's going on even the other end of the monastery >> and monks are under obedience. It's not their business to far it out what their abbott might be doing wrong.
>> Right. Right. And also, you know, people travel around, whatever. So, I I I think it's going to get ugly. I think I think there's all kinds of things that going to come forward. I've just was looking on the internet today and people have all kinds of, you know, unfounded crazy accusations. But I think one of the things the commission is going to do is probably talk to everybody, at least see what they say. But I think there's a lot of these things are on file.
>> But this is always true when we when there are people who knew a person who whose sanctity is later recognized, knew him personally. I'm translating a book about St. St. Gabriel Gabbadzi of Georgia, right? and uh you know the and the the the people who are writing their me remembrances of him they're not all not all positive and they would not have even considered thinking he was a saint at the time >> there are slanderous life versions of lives of St. Maximus there's a slanderous life of Gregory Palmos where people have >> St. John Maximovic >> St. John Maximovic detractors big time.
>> One of the bishops have wound up um uh voting to canonize him during his life uh was his enemy. So I mean you know that's why anyone I cuz I saw online many people are upset that this was not a done deal. Anyone who loves the church wants this thing to be done in the right way, right? And >> and to be fair, we kind of move at a glacial pace when it comes to any changes and stuff like that, right? I mean that's that's the one thing about orthodoxy the the joke is what you know how how many priests and monks does it take to change a light bulb and the answer is why do we need to change the light bulb right >> we don't change anything >> well there's literally in the in the forcourt at the holy supplr there's a thing called the un irovable ladder >> and you can see it was placed there sometime in the 19th century and they can't move it because nobody knows who put it And you'd have to get everyone to agree to move it. No one's going to move it.
So you can actually there's like paintings from the 1800s of this ladder.
It's just a random ladder. It has no meaning, no symbolism whatsoever. So yeah, it is hard to change.
>> I've seen the ladder. It's ridiculous.
True.
>> Isn't it just crazy? It's just there. Um >> would somebody freak out if we just walked up and moved the ladder?
>> Yeah, somebody Yeah, I don't I don't think they let you do that.
>> No, it's like a landmark. But uh I I mean one of the things though the these canonizations of saints I think because of the nature of the modern world are much faster than they used to be in most cases. the old days you'd wait 50 or 100 years just so everyone was dead, right?
And so nobody Well, one, so that relatives could not benefit. Oh, this is his, you know, you know, his, you know, shoe or his, you know, >> when he charged for tickets to come see his house, >> right? And that that kind of stuff has happened. But the other thing too is, you know, there are people, this is not that long ago that he reposed. there's going to be people coming forward and some people might have you know uh ill motive and say things that are you know so it's I I don't we should pray for the commission >> but this isn't this father one of the things that makes our orthodox church so strong is that there is a place for disscent absolutely >> for disagreement for private opinion absolutely and the you know people should be able to express those opinions >> never be in a hurry we accidentally what I mean I'm saying this sort of uh jockly but We accidentally glorified a a Lutheran. You know, you know, in the f one of the early lists of the new murders of Russia, right, there was this doctor who was there and his name was included, but he was he was Lutheran, so he obviously was couldn't have been a martyr, so we fixed it. But so we should never be in a rush to do these things.
Yeah.
>> And I think we do we should examine because the thing is I saw a lot of the conversation and one one person wrote this article, we need St. Saraphim for this reason. We don't ever need a particular saint. The saints either stand in line with the other saints or they're not saints.
>> Right.
>> Right. So if whatever their particularities are always they're judged in light of the ancient saints.
So >> I think father sarapin would agree 100%.
A lot of the push back he was even getting in his own time is because he was saying exactly what you're saying right now and criticizing a lot of, let's be honest, a lot of the other jurisdictions for not necessarily what we would call orthodox behavior pointing out a lot of deviations from the holy fathers.
>> Right. Right. But I think yeah, I think the issue is not so much what would uh father serapim say about these things.
There are a lot of people who have particular ideologies they have developed from his writing.
>> Yeah.
>> And they will be very reluctant to yield to the church and say, "Well, no, he's he said this and he said this and this is what he meant." This is actually, we were talking about this. This is actually a good thing because it brings everything he did into the life of the church subject to what the church understands a saint to be and what he did. And so maybe he had an opinion here or an opinion there that doesn't line up. That doesn't mean he's not holy. And that doesn't mean the church has changed its understanding of things.
>> We've discussed more than one holy father who had opinions like that that exactly were later rejected.
>> Yeah.
>> Father, father's right. The it's more what the people will say in the name of father ser and this it's very easy to politicize uh and to weaponize uh someone who is associated with something that's more conservative, more extreme, right? and then thus furthering this this binary identity politics that we get. But that's that's to be expected. It's uh not, you know, God is not waiting for us to figure it out to glorify, right?
He's, you know, he's already done the work.
>> We're always a big fan of having people read the works himself. I brought three works which are some of the more popular works and some of the ones he faced kind of backlash for. This is nihilism, the root of the revolution of the modern age. This is orthodoxy and the religion of the future. This I actually saw a meme about because this is talking about the coming which we have mentioned before the UFO deception its roots in occultism um spiritism the essentially the you know this is this is what's going on now. We see this group of you know uh very charis charismaticism I guess we could say the charismatic movement that is spread because people want to feel something.
You see our own president's you know uh faith advisor is very much out of this.
You know a lot of the assemblies of god father was pointing this stuff out back in the 60s and 70s and it's it hasn't gotten any better since then. This is the soul after death. This one specifically I know he got a lot of push back for even from other Orthodox bishops which in the latest revised edition he actually is writing them directly and citing his sources and taking he that's one thing he he did he's he did respond to criticism with well here's here's what the church says so specifically the concept of houses >> that was a yeah that was him and laser po >> and laser po is not a bishop that's what we have to bear in mind and uh when they when they corrected I mean I think the I think the uh St. Anony's monastery out in uh uh out in Arizona did a good job in sort of creating a comprehensive understanding of things but uh Laser Bahala was a heretic and a problematic figure.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean he wasn't the only one that was pushing it back.
>> But that was the that was the other one the other big one what was his name the Michael Ascool who was also a sysmatic as well. Most of the ones leading it were were problematic figures.
>> But I mean can people should read the books. It's funny I was telling you yesterday for me the the greatest works that Father Sarapim had were one the lectures that he gave at universities in the Bay Area which must have been tough during that time. You're dealing with actual Marxists and like communists and hippies and drugged out LSD people because you know the United States government's dropping LSD on people which is a whole another subject. But um and the other one is uh you know the orthodox survival guide, Genesis, creation and man. All of these works are it seemed like father serapim took on controversial topics. He's dealing directly with evolution. He's dealing directly with you know the aliens and stuff like that. I mean, of course, he's going to have push back for that, right?
Because these are very controversial subjects.
>> And the people, you know, who are writing things in English at the time, um, are promoting more of kind of like a feel-good type of approach to orthodoxy, which is, >> you know, it's, uh, different, but you have, you know, you have Mayandorf, you have Hopkco, you have a lot of the Paris school kind of influencing a lot of what is being written in English uh, here in American. So you have a very different uh flavor of orthodoxy coming out uh one from very lived experience. Um I think father serum's writings on Buddhism specifically uh during the time were I think quintessential for a lot of people to convert to not look to look towards the east but not towards the mysticism and the um these other you know Asian type of >> yeah that that was his journey is he was looking into that stuff and walked into you know a Russian Orthodox church and I We we cautioned people against going with their feelings, but you know, he said that he had he found the truth there. And he actually learned Russian even though he didn't speak it just so he could understand the text better, which that's that's a that's an achievement. As a grown as a grown man, I'll tell you it's it's difficult to learn a new language that you know is not you didn't grow up with learning.
>> But he he was a linguist. I mean, he was really he's very skilled in that. I mean, he spoke Chinese as well, I think, in every language.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I mean, that makes sense. Actually, in the Bay Area, >> he studied he was studying Eastern religions and Eastern um Eastern philosophy. Uh wasn't one of his teachers, Alan Watts, didn't he know Alan Watts, who was the the big hippie?
Wow.
>> Yeah. And so that I don't know if it was like his he wasn't his disciple, but he was connected with all that. and he also was reading um the writers uh the perennialist writers particularly Renee Gayon at that period of time. So he was he was going through a like you said at the beginning a very complicated time and he saw that orthodoxy was the actualization of things that he was looking for in other religions because they the other religions the far religions can talk about it but orthodoxy delivers it.
>> Father Deacon would you read the quotes I have here from St. Ignatius and uh St. Justine Popovich >> from the Pericon.
It is only necessary to seek one thing to be with Jesus. The man who remains with Jesus is rich even if he is poor with regard to material things. Whoever desires the earthly more than the heavenly loses both the earthly and the heavenly. But whoever seeks the heavenly is lord of the whole world.
That kind of reminds me of the story of the king who was told he could be healed if he put on the shirt of a happy man.
And the soldiers searched high and low and we find that when they finally found a happy man, he had no shirt.
>> Yeah, there you go. That's funny.
>> From the explanation of the first chapter of John, a man is this world must solve a problem to be with Christ or to be against him.
And every man decides this whether he wants to or not. to either be a lover of Christ or a fighter of Christ. There is no third option.
>> That's a very stark and direct take.
You're either a lover of Christ or a fighter of Christ. There's no third option.
>> Fathers, what's your take on that quote?
>> In the gospel, uh Christ says two phrases. In one case, he says uh he who is not against us is for us.
Right? But isn't there another uh phrase father where he says he who is not for us is against us.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> And so we have we have both right and both are true depending on the situation.
>> And and that's why I would say that father serapim took from the perennialist a very a very skilled uh critique of the modern world >> uh and that which is very helpful. But we also have to fill in the other side of it. We don't want to we're to reject the world but not creation. Right? And I think people can fall into this thinking of we have to reject all you know culture and society which he obviously if you look at his life he didn't believe that he believed in teaching you know the young people literature etc and so forth so that's where I think you know some of the people are trying to claim his legacy are trying to superimpose on him something that he's not right so again father sarapim talked a lot about identity identity in the modern world a question that I'm posing to everybody is what is the old baggage that we are carrying with us that prevents us from fulfilling the commandments of Christ. Father Nathan, would you read uh the next two passages right there?
>> Whose quote is this that I'm reading next?
>> This is from Matthew.
>> Uh Christ. Well, oh, this is your words.
Okay, I got it. From Matthew, "Ye are the salt of the earth. But if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works, and glorify your father, which is in heaven. That last line we say at the conclusion of the vesting of the bishop, >> right?
Yeah, >> I love that. That's one of my favorite passages. And Christ is telling us very clearly that we're not to, you know, disregard the material world. We are supposed to enlighten and give it flavor, right? This is this is a very different thing than hating all of creation and the things that the Gnostics believe. We we and may father actually go and read the next uh from first Peter that'll help us illumine what Christ is saying here. Peter continues the thought and says, "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people." Not strange, not the way we use peculiar today. Odd, a little weird. No, peculiar that is apart. Uh, special to be separate.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> That ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. And then to the Corinthians he writes, "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away.
Behold, all things are become new."
>> Father Maximus, what's your take on how do we drop the baggage of the world that still a lot of us that are coming into the church with can't seem to really shed? We are supposed to be a new creature. Old things have passed away.
We're supposed to be the salt and the light. We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. St. Peter goes on to say that we are to be partakers of the divine nature, right? We that's our goal is to become a saint, to attain theosis, to become deified. What prevents us from doing that? Because certainly we see that there are a lot of people coming into the church but there like all of us we still have our old suitcase packed with with you know luggage from the world might we say >> there's some data very dis distressing data going across various jurisdictions that uh people stay in the church converts stay about 5 years >> if they stay 5 years then they often stay the rest of their lives but because people come in with the best of intentions but then they don't realize This is not I mean you can be very it's a beautiful church and Pasca is beautiful. There's all these it's cool you know and whatever way you want.
>> Lots of gold pretty >> lots of gold. does a lot of things like that.
>> That smells good.
>> But ultimately those all those we have fun vestments and cool titles and crazy hats, all kinds of things and that's sort of entertaining for a short period of time. But once you realize that you have to actually work, you have to pray, you have to acquire the virtues, you have to live a holy life or attempt to live a holy life, then people become, you know, le it's less fun and they >> because we have to do things >> right. But the the your question was what what do we have to let go? We have to let go of trying to turn the Orthodox church into some sort of worldly version of itself that appeals to whatever my my particular desires are. I want to make it the the home of liberal ideology, so I'm going to find when I quote mine, I'm going to put together a version of that or conservative pol politics or whatever. It's none of those things.
Yeah. Right. It's obviously when it comes like social issues obviously we line up with conservatives more but that's they line up with us we don't change right so I think that's a really important thing and you can't I mean this is even before Christianity you have to examine yourself you know it Socrates says the unexamined life is not worth living and in the process of of putting off the old man you have to identify what is the old man >> that's the scariest thing though father I'll it is right Sometimes when we look in the mirror, we don't want to see who's staring back at us.
>> The thing is so scares us. In baptism, we say that the old man perishes in the waters of baptism, right? He dies in the waters of baptism, is drowned, and a new man emerges out of the out of the baptismal font.
>> And so often we don't want to do that.
We want to baptize the old man and bring him along with us.
>> Right? St. Nicodemus, I was reading him today and he says it was specifically on that. He says we die to that but our human propensities and bad habits are still there >> right and this is why it can be for converts they have to I always try to remind converts is all your temptations they're not going to go away we're giving going to give you the tools to fight them >> right and then there's often a notion like I was doing so great before I was orthodox because you were playing soldier right it's easy to play soldier you put on a uniform sort of march around the backyard you're going into the the demons know the difference between playing and praying. And so, yes, things are going to be more difficult, but the reward is greater.
>> The you mentioned that statistic, father, the 5year statistic, right?
>> I mean, I have no verification. I've just >> of course, but I wonder how many other honeymoon periods uh that echoes.
>> I was just going to say it sounds like marriage, like you make it past that first one and you're probably good to go and you're locked in. But it's funny.
Yeah, I was thinking exactly that when Father Max just mentioned that. Seven years I think they say for marriage if you make it give or take five to seven.
Yeah. You make it past that seven years statistically you're probably going to last the rest of your lives.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Because probably you knew what you were getting into.
>> Uh you knew what you were it was a lifetime thing. And and the thing is that's why we have to really I said there's a lot of discussion right now in the chat about particular uh individuals that help bring people to orthodoxy.
That doesn't I mean it's helpful if they do but the Holy Spirit brings you to orthodoxy. You better be loyal to the Holy Spirit.
not this chat or someone else's chat or something like that. You have to >> the Holy Spirit is infallible, >> right? And whatever, you know, and whatever stupid things we may say here tonight, the Holy Spirit is working through us to bring us not not to us, not to Nathan or Steven or Sean or Maximus, but to Christ, right? And so that's I think if we remember that then all of our our like false baggage or ideologies, you know, I want to I have all these ideas. We don't you you get to the point where you just don't care about them.
>> It's incredibly important what you said about the Holy Spirit being what brings us to to the church to Christ. Sean, you mentioned Father Saraphim uh walking into church and uh you said, you know, we have to care be careful about trusting feelings, but he immediately felt that he was home. And you're right, it wasn't a feeling. It was the Holy Spirit. That's what he became aware of.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Right. And so it's dangerous because you go, well, the occasion, you know, the, >> you know, philosophy talks about this, the proximate versus the efficient cause.
>> The proximate cause may be something very different than the efficient cause.
It's like cuz you do this logic. Well, you know, uh, people who are martyed for Christ, that's a great benefit to the church. Stalin killed a lot of people.
Stalin is good. And I've heard people say that.
>> Yeah, that's a false equivalence.
>> He is the He is the approximate cause by which people come, you know, became saints. He's not the efficient cause, right? And he'll answer for it, too. So, I I think we have to I don't know if that answers your question, Sean, but I think that's something we just >> I had a Yeah, it does. I had a family member ask me, you know, so when you before you were Orthodox, do you think that, you know, the Holy Spirit was working in you? And I said, I know the Holy Spirit was working in me because he led me to orthodoxy.
>> Right?
>> That's exactly how I know because I prayed to be led into the truth and I was led into the truth.
>> St. Maximus says this that the Holy Spirit is working on all human beings in some sense.
>> He's the giver of life.
>> He's the giver of life, you know, and so but also it's >> the difference between he works from the outside. Now these are obviously you know not literal terms but the St. Maximus says for people outside the church he works from the outside to bring them in for us he's working inside when we're crisismated we're given the gift of the seal of the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit is working in our hearts in a different way but we do not deny what the technical term is prevenient grace that grace which brings you to the truth because otherwise nobody could be saved. you know, if if we could come back for just a second to the question of identity.
>> Yeah, that's what we're talking about.
>> And I think we can definitely all agree that first and foremost, the Christian identifies as a Christian. That is the underlying primary definition. The martyrs when asked, "What is your name?
What is your rank? Where are you from?"
Very often would reply only, "I am a Christian." That was their sole answer to all of that information. Uh no name, no nothing. I am a Christian. And uh so this is our identity and it should be our identity in every sphere of life.
>> Yeah.
>> Now do we pursue other activities, other areas of activity beyond that? Of course we do. But you take uh there was a a a comedian named uh Tim Hawkins who uh is a Christian and he says, "But I'm not a Christian comedian." If you have a plumber, you wouldn't say, "Well, I have a Christian plumber." uh you know, you don't you don't slap that moniker onto every area of worldly secular activity.
Uh and some of them are compatible and others are directly incompatible, right?
You know, you hear a Christian rapper and you know, you start to wonder, uh well, I'm a Christian, I don't know, stripper. I mean, God forbid, you know, that you know, no, you're not, >> right? Yeah.
>> Um you know, so >> you're a Christian who strips. I think that's a that's a distinction.
>> Well, actually CS Lewis made that decision distinction. I think we talked about that in a previous class that he said, you know, you are a Christian or you are not. Then we can talk about uh how good a Christian you are. And it'd be more accurate to say uh the baptized uh young woman who unfortunately has gone down that path is a very poor example of a Christian and is not pursu is not living out her.
>> I think she lives in Rochester is is my recollection. Now, now I know how it feels when uh you know, you react to people saying when I say crazy things.
And now I know, >> never would have thought, Father Deacon, we're called by, you know, commanded by St. Paul. He says to we have the mind of Christ. And I want you to read from uh Philippians right there because he he's very clear about what mindset a lot of our identity comes from our mindset.
>> The Greek word there is noose, >> right? Exactly.
That's very true. And the word for works is energera, which is workketh, right?
Which is interesting. Energizes. It's not I, but Christ workketh in me. Christ energizes me, which is a whole another subject, and we'll get into that. But um how how should our mindset be? It's very clear in holy scripture. Father Deacon, >> let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name, that is the name of Jesus. Every knee should bow of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
>> So, we are to have the mindset of a servant, a servant of God.
>> Is that right, fathers? Did I miss something? The silence is >> no doubt especially as uh as deacons we are all servants. Literally literally well this is such a theologically rich passage.
>> It really is. Yeah.
>> And I don't think it can be summed up in one nice concise.
>> Yeah. Also to all the Jehovah's Witnesses and Aryans out there very clear that Christ is God right here.
Right. So just want to point that out >> very much. But I think the the first bit of the passage let this mind be in you.
this noose as father pointed out that this mind this this noose be in you this uh intellect be in you which all was also in Christ Jesus >> that we are called to be all of this and then he goes on to describe what Jesus Christ was like who he was and what he did he was God he humbled himself despite the fact that he was God he allowed himself to be whipped and spit on and stoned and hung on a tree >> so if he did that how much more can we do that who are most certainly not God and and for whom it is nowhere near the humiliation that it was for him.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Although it was very cool always the the lives of the saints when during the saxarian father when you're reading about St. George and the tortures that he was put through. St. Pantaman the patron saint also here.
It's like like a real life Wolverine.
They're just doing stuff to him and he's like healing instantly. How cool is that?
>> That would be very very interesting to behold. And I think both of them did.
people did beho held it and that's you know it's often said that the church the foundation of the church is the blood of the martyrs right so >> I believe that the martyrdom or the torture of St. George went on for quite some period of time.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I think it was years it may have been. Uh and so because sometimes people say, "Oh, the martyrs had the easy way out." No, not if they're like, you know, sticking hot pokers in your eye every day, right?
>> And even if it healed, that's you know, >> and that's not the only story we have of a martyr that's just like that either.
It's just like I mean, you did mention though yesterday that it seems to be the sword, >> the beheading is it's almost like the movie Highlander. It's like look, you can't kill this guy. You got to like you got to take his head. Although the sword when it hit St. Pantelon's neck was waxed which freaked out the executioners and then he looks at him and they were scared and didn't want to do it and he goes now you got to do it right.
>> Let's get this thing over. Let's bring this lay this plane. I think you know you you read these stories and the the emperor sounds like some sort of super villain out of like you know Batman right? They they come up with all these like ridiculous ways but then eventually it's like we we could just cut his head off and that always seems to work.
>> Yeah. spikes on shoes and the torture wheel torture >> because it's an admission of defeat.
>> Yeah, >> that's why it works. It's not. It's because it's because they're admitting defeat and saying we have we got nothing. Uh we're we're let we're letting you go basically.
>> And then people of course they see this and you think ordinarily what the emperor is trying to do is make people afraid to be a Christian and they're witnessing this incredible miracle whether it's St. George or St. Pentilan or St. Polycarp, right? Where you he can't even burn. No, cuz he's already fire. You can't burn him.
>> And in some cases, it's the incredible miracle of that type of preservation or healing. But in many, many other cases, it's the incredible miracle of a person who undergoes extreme excruciating torture, is not miraculously healed, and still continues to confess the name, >> will not renounce Christ. Yeah. Exactly.
Both I mean, both of those are miracles.
>> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. Uh, let's get to some super chats.
And we have a lot of questions still and we have a lot of quotes still, but I'm behind on the super chats. Forgive me.
>> Elusive Relic says, "Christian Stripper, did I hear that right?" Yes, you did.
>> Oh, Y Blue Nicholas sends in $200. Thank you so much again, Nicholas. We are praying for you. I promise we are praying for you indeed. And Amanda sends in $20 with no comment, just sending us money. So, glory to God.
That's amazing.
>> No, they have no questions.
>> I'm just sending money.
>> Yeah, that's great.
>> I've always kind of like that. Always kind of like that name, Amanda.
>> Exactly. Let's read, if you don't mind, father, some father quotes which deal with this subject directly. And this was part of the topic tonight. Um, we are going to transfer, I think, unless you want to expand on identity. I think we covered a lot, but we're going to get to the Q&A part. I know that's what everyone likes and people waited till right about now and then the live audience kind of goes up. So, we know you're eager for it. That's why we're here. We got the panel of priests for you. So, fathers, do your best. All right. Thank you. Um, yeah, if fathers, you would take turns reading those father saraphim quotes. I think they're uh very edifying for people.
>> Would you?
>> Sure. Start off. We who are given the fullness of true Christianity are obliged to be working on ourselves to be watching the signs of the times and to be extremely joyful. As St. Paul is constantly saying, rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice.
>> We rejoice because we have something which all the death and corruption of this world cannot take away. That is the eternal kingdom of Jesus Christ.
>> Isn't that a popular uh Protestant round? Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice.
>> It is. Yeah.
>> It's very pretty.
>> There are some hymns that I can never forget because they just really are beautiful. There are some that are theologically incorrect that are beautiful and I try not to remember those ones. Although they, you know, it's a it's a catchy tune and they stick with you.
>> Can't go wrong with scripture.
>> Yeah. One of them is, you know, this world is not my home. I'm just a passing through.
>> Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I like that one.
Everything in this life passes away.
Only God remains. Only he is worth struggling towards. We have a choice to follow the way of this world, of the society that surround us and thereby find ourselves outside of God. Or to choose the way of life, to choose God who calls us and for whom our heart is searching.
That's it. Black or white. There is no third path.
>> I'll read this one. Christ is the only exit from this world. All other exits, sexual rapture, political utopia, economic independence are all but blind alleys in which rot that which rot the corpses of many who have tried them.
That is very true, right? We're looking for pleasure. We're looking for a political utopia. We're looking for economic independence. And Father Saraphim says very clearly that the the corpses of those that have tried that, they're rotting right now. Right.
>> And and many are the the songs, the secular works that recognize that truth.
Uh what's the old song? I can't get no satisfaction. You know, he's saying, "I try and try and tried."
>> Yeah. They should have tried the church.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah. There you go, MC Jagger.
>> Hope you're listening.
>> Take that, MC Jagger, if you're still alive. Is he alive?
>> Yes. Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, they're they're plastic.
I don't think any of those guys. Yeah, exactly.
>> What you >> uh last last quote.
>> Orthodoxy is life. If we don't live orthodoxy, we simply are not orthodox.
No matter what formal beliefs we might hold.
This is from living the orthodox worldview, a talk delivered by Father Sarapim.
>> Yeah. A lot of for those listening a lot of in my opinion um Father Sarapim maybe soon to be St. Saraphim's best works are the talks that he actually delivered and some of those are available on YouTube. And it's interesting because he is doing very similar to things that what we're doing.
He's sitting there and fielding questions. You know, he has his own material and then he's taking questions afterwards. And it's some of those very questions and the responses that you're really getting some incredible information. I think he's right.
Orthodoxy is life. Father Nathan and father I think father stfan said the same thing. One of the things that we have to bear in mind that particularly when he's doing this, >> there's very little being done in English, >> right?
>> And then the vast majority of that are individuals who are have a very different take on orthodoxy than Roor and traditional, you know, traditionalism. You have, you know, have likeandorf and Hopco and uh and so it's a very different. So he he's out there and he there is a similarity where he is he has like an Augustine quality because he's sort of isolated um even though he's there in the Russian church and speaks Russian but he's like dealing with English speakers and so he's that's I think why he felt the necessity to produce this vast quantity of literature because there was nothing there and that's why that's why Augustine was writing because he was filling a void that really really needed to be and so Fotus the Great says about St. And Augustine says, "Well, if he made some mistakes, he was he was doing really really, you know, difficult work."
>> This what Father Saraphim says, too.
He's very fair.
>> Yeah. And I think what we have to, you know, cuz again, now people who oppose uh Father Sarapim are are becoming very uh vocal. We have to say a stray comment here and a stray comment there. Like there's a big let's be honest there's a big movement amongst the um the uh the sysmatics the you know true calendar or what do you uh the >> genuine orthodox >> genuine true orthodox whatever they call themselves he in in the 70s he wrote some comments very loud lauding them but we were in communion with them right he had no way of knowing what was going to happen later on so I think that that's you know we have to put that those statements made in particular context >> very true uh Uh, fathers questions.
Yeah, a live audience if you have any questions.
>> Joseph, >> what was the problem with Thomas John Hopco? Because you sent his name in like a negative minute, but I've only heard his name in like positive.
>> Who? Hop.
>> John Hopk, is that >> is John his middle name? I didn't know that. He was a very he was basically a pretty liberal writer about things. He had a very sort of uh he wasn't awful, but he had a he was he had a very sort of Schmeman had this sort of re uh what do you call it? re revolutionary reform understanding of orthodoxy, what they were doing with liturgy and the way they dressed. They wore like clerical collars and trim beards and you know not necessarily problematic theology although there is some and uh it was Schmemen who was principally uh influenced by Latin Roman Catholic writer Louie Buouay who was a part of the lurggical movement in the 30s and 40s and then that became the main work of uh of uh um father Tom Hopkco sort of continued that on into uh the ' 90s Whatever. So >> in my prayers for the dead, I had been praying for father Sarapim Rose. Now that he might become a saint, should I stop that or should prayers still can prayer still help those repo in those reposed come closer to the lord?
>> You absolutely should continue. And the father's uh the Russian practice is right before you do the canonization, you do the last paneita, >> right? And I've been present for that.
And so yes, we pray for the individual up until the time that they're glorified. So then there's a very big movement when we begin saying, you know, holy father seren praying to God for us.
And because people are trying to make political points on the internet, they're sort of losing some of the dramatic power of when the when we do the canonization, we come out and say now he now he can intercede for us.
>> So when it happens, you'll know when it happens.
>> You'll definitely know when it happens.
And in fact that was that traditionally that's actually how we ask the prayers for someone in whose sanctity we believe but who has not been formally canonized.
St. Sea of St. Petersburg instructed people after I'm gone come uh ask for a pane at my grave and I will help you. So right but by by praying for the dead you are in fact asking for their prayers.
>> Yes.
>> What do you guys think of father saraphim being gay at some point in his life? Do we have a story of modern-day repentance or is this going to be a problem?
>> I said before the before it began, he's a combination of Augustine and St. Mary of Egypt uh in that there's there's letters back and forth indicating Yeah, he struggled with that and he repented of that and there's strong evidence that he uh he repented of that in a really impressive and strong way. And you know, for anything else, that's a really good uh icon image for people struggling with that in the in the in this century. So, >> a lot of Christians, I think, forget that we all need to be afforded some grace, right? We I mean, it's that's the thing is that's the beauty of orthodoxy is that we're able to repent.
>> Well, for some reason, we want to compartmentalize homosexuality, you know. I think it's this case of, well, at least I'm not that, you know. No, sin is sin, right? And uh and the sin of homosexual behavior uh is is no more an impediment to ultimately achieving sanctity than any other sin >> if you repent of it. Exactly. Wouldn't be the first uh gay Orthodox, you know, individual or monk or someone who's working on their salvation. It's not uh nothing new here.
>> I'm sorry. I still refuse to let them have the word gay. I like the word gay.
>> Bring gay back, everybody.
>> It's a beautiful word. bring gay back.
>> Um, >> but not homosexuals as good as they get.
>> We're not bringing those back.
>> This is, you know, another reason it's, you know, when we play identity politics, you know, when we identify with one group or another, >> you know, we um we dismantle the humanity completely. And we see that >> that might be the most important point tonight, Father. Well done.
>> There's um a tendency to really criticize our brothers and sisters quite a bit. Um and I think with this controversy with father saraphim a lot of it relies around the uh >> the controversy around the people around him you know like father uh father Herman and these are not things that we can sweep under the rug and a lot of people are really tired of having >> scandal sweep under the rug but um no one uh you know no one is accusing father Saraphim of um you know giving the okay to be open and gay and to spread some sort of you know gay movement with an orthodoxy. Quite the opposite you know.
>> Yeah. There's no evidence whatsoever from anybody who has suggested that he did anything in violation of his celibacy. What they do accuse him of is sort of being aware that Father Herman was up to nonsense and doing nothing about it, which I find pretty absurd based on every based on who this man is, >> right? And all of his writings and stuff, >> right?
>> Well, not just that. I mean, people he's he died not that long ago. A lot of people know him and knew him. And to imagine that he would somehow I mean there's stories that that towards the end of Father Saraphim's life he had some very harsh words for Father Herman right uh very harsh words because he apparently towards the end of his life was aware that something was going on but the idea that I think the notion that he covered it up or was in I I read some horrible articles that he was uh you know sort of giving Aiden comfort to him there's no evidence whatsoever. no evidence whatsoever.
>> For those of us uh who have never struggled with homosexual inclination, I I think it's important to recognize one thing that really struck me in our classes in canon law in Jordanville was that it turns out the the penance for uh a homosexual is the same as a uh extra extrammarital uh uh heterosexual.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So it's the same is you know it's sin is sin. So, which blew me away sinning against the body.
>> You'd expect it to be twice as long or something like that. But no, it's the same penance.
>> And St. Paul reminds us that when you sin against one member, you're sinning against the entire church, which is my valid point, too.
>> My sins are okay.
>> Whatever I do, whatever particular sins I have are okay. It's your sins, Father.
>> So, you're going to be casting the first stone because, you know, there's a lot of people. You got to get head of the line to cast those stones.
>> There's a lot of people in line. It's good to be It's good to be at the head of the stone throwing line. Stone throw you can go home, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Sign on next week to view my stoning apparently. No, I think it's going to be again it's I think it's really important for people who are uh supporters of uh the canonization of uh father serapim and people who have questions not people who want to spend um baseless slander but people who have questions should be able to ask questions and sort of identifying what was the exact nature of I mean who father Herman was and his problems. I mean he wound up being u defrocked by Roor and going into a false jurisdiction >> and you know causing problems there as well. Uh so it's he was a bad dude. I don't think we have to defend him but we know from a fact a lot of times saints have inter you know interactions with people who are problematic.
>> Is he still living?
>> No he died a few years ago.
>> I thought he did. I I met him in Moscow actually.
>> I met him in I met him in Columbia, South Carolina.
>> Oh >> wow. uh back in the early '9s and uh in the early '9s he was still in control of his institution and the first version of not of this world was written at his hand and it was more about instead of about Father Saraphim it was the book of justification of Father Herman >> and I know that because my godfather was like present when it was being written out there in California and my understanding is subsequently it was new additions came out and sort of uh removed some of the and part of it is one of the things Father Herman Herman wanted to whitewash uh Father Saraphim's previous uh problematic life because he was currently living a bad life. So he wanted to get all that stuff out of there.
>> And father Father Herman having been defrocked is obviously no longer Father Herman, but rather Gleb.
>> Well, now he's a monk, so he's still he's still Father Herman.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah. Live audience, you have a question at any time, raise your hands, Father.
>> No, it was interesting how many I wonder how many people have come to orthodoxy through Father Saraphim. I know quite a bit of people on you know >> definitely helped me for sure >> the west coast during you know the years that he was active surely but um how many have come since then and with the you know access to >> a lot of his spiritual children are in and around Sacramento where some of my gyms are actually. So yeah I uh I've not met them personally but I've seen interviews and they have nothing but amazing things to say about Father Sarapun. I may be the last generation of converts that came into the church that was wholly uninfluenced by Father Saraphim. Yeah. I mean I came in the early 90s. He had been um reposed less than 10 years and he was highly controversial, >> right? Particularly from that first book. There were things in that first book that were obviously false written by father Father Herman that put uh uh Father Saraphin in a very bad light. But there was no way of knowing, you know.
So now um many years later now there's a sort of clear like for example uh a lot of his supporters deny the fact that prior to coming into the church he had been you know involved in the gay movement in San Francisco. Uh but now I mean that was essentially established by letters etc and so forth. So now even his supporters I'm saying yeah but that sort of makes the story that makes him St. Mary of Egypt in a lot of ways.
>> That's it's almost a better story. It's here he comes he comes from this >> hugely problematic academia and he's involved in all kinds of like weird religion and he comes to the church and he transforms and becomes not only a right a a venerable chasteed monk but also a a a fairly uh powerful and significant influence as a writer.
>> God works in mysterious ways.
>> I think that's the better story >> question. Uh, what should I do if I don't have a parish nearby?
>> How nearby?
>> How nearby? Yeah. Drive. Get to an Orthodox church.
>> For some people, not nearby is, oh, it's 40 minutes away. That's not going to happen. That's nearby.
>> Right. Yeah. We have two people in our audience.
>> How far would you drive to a hospital >> if you were bleeding to death?
>> Yeah, that's a good point. I >> mean, probably there's a parish within 2, three hours. That's, you know, that that's a reasonable trip to go see a sporting event, right?
>> So, can you make it every weekend? Maybe not. So, go as often as you can.
>> Talk to your priest. And sometimes I there's people you just, you know, I have one person I said you got to come every month, you know, and uh but yeah, there's some place again people go many hours for a sporting event. And this is a very important thing.
>> Well, and and realistically, I mean, there are people who live, you know, seven, eight hours away from the nearest church. It's getting rarer in this country, thank God, but it does happen.
And in that kind of a case, weigh your options. Is this where you would want to be living for the next 10 years? You know, might consider relocating. You would for other things, for work, why not for church?
>> For sure. Um, does the panel think that Father Sarapim described in his words the real scope of the spirit of the age?
And do Christians face greater challenges than old martyrs due to the spirit of nihilism?
>> Good question.
>> Very very much a two-part question.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I would say that his book on nihilism is a little optimistic uh in actual terms. It's it goes much deeper uh than what he talks about. It's it's effective, but it's sort of like it reminds me of like 1950s understanding what nihilism is more so than what we're dealing with now. I mean, nihilism is so sort of woven into society that you don't even have to say it anymore. It's just sort of built in. Uh yeah, I think our the challenges obviously of like St. George and St. Demetrius and St. Pelan was you confess Christ and they'll kill you, right? Which is even as horrible it is is pretty straightforward today. And I I can't remember what particular saint uh maybe it was St. Pyius or St. Pfurius said we're called on to be confessors in the real way because every aspect of the truth is being cut and carved away.
Yeah.
>> And so I think what father Sarapim says in nihilism is a good foreshadowing but it's also in if you read St. Simeon the theologian or the other holy fathers they talk about it. The only thing I would say is we can't we can't and he didn't give up on the intellectual project of explaining orthodoxy to the nonorthodox. Unfortunately, many of the people who do follow him >> feel he is calling people to give up on that intellectual project which I think is problematic. They received it from him >> now. It's our job to continue that project in explaining orthodoxy to and I've come to realize since I've been here in Florida, younger people, people under, you know, 30, they think very, very differently. And so things have to be explained to them in a different way, just as Father Saraphim explained the holy fathers to his generation.
>> Yeah, that's a good point. Um, father, we have a question about jurisdictions.
You wanted me to ask this question. We needed to talk about it. What do what is the difference between jurisdictions?
You know, people say, "Well, what or what orthodox church? The roore church, the Greek church, I think Antiocian church. Is there only one Orthodox church?" What what do the jurisdictions mean? Just so we can get that out of the way.
>> There is one Orthodox church, one holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
>> In our world, it is divided into uh different what it's called churches.
Autophilis is a Greek word which means self-headed, >> self-governing. Self literally self head sephilos keos although selfhead means they have the authority to select their their primate their patriarch their archbishop their metropolitan without approval from anyone else right so historically all bishops are equal right we don't but they have different primacy and different jurisdiction different authority so we we in the diptics we have I if I once I get towards the lower part of the list Maybe the fathers can help me. Uh the first among equals, the ecumenical patriarch is the patriarch of Constantinople, right? And this goes back this authority or job was inherited when Rome fell in into sism because Rome was the first. And if you look at the ecumenical cannons, it the reason why it says Rome is first is because it was the capital of the empire. No religious reasons whatsoever. And Constantinople became number two. the new Rome. It was the new Rome, second city in the empire.
So it gained there for no religious reasons whatsoever, for reasons of convenience >> because it was the seat of the empire.
>> It was the And it just makes sense if you think about it, you know. But then okay, so three is Alexandria. Uh four is uh >> Jerusalem.
>> Uh four is Antioch. Uh Jerus I don't in order. I think Moscow comes before Jerusalem.
>> No, Moscow comes after >> right after. So Jerusalem and then Moscow and then Bulgaria and I'm not going to do it in order but u this what 15 total autophilist jurisdictions or harches.
>> So each of these we considered the leader of them is the leader the chairman of the board of their church.
So in America because America is America >> almost all of these jurisdictions operate on the same soil right. So the ecumenical patriarchy is here in the form of the Greek arch dasis >> right >> uh the Russian church is here in the form of roquore and uh there's some MP parishes Antioch is here Bulgaria is here Romania is here uh Serbia is here and then the OCA is a church uh that is recognized by the Slavic churches as being but is not recognized by the Greek churches being Otophilis. So the important thing for us to know is that each of the churches in America except for the OCA has a lineage back to one of the patriarchates or not necessarily patriarch. Some are some the heads of some of these churches have the title archbishop, some have the title of metropolitan.
>> Right. Which also have a lineage back to the apostles themselves.
>> Right. Right. Right. So, and then uh next week uh they're going to elect a new patriarch of Georgia, which is again one of the one of the ancient patriarchates of of the Orthodox Church.
>> Yeah. Um let's see. How do we find the right balance between patience and zeal such that we are neither wrathful nor indifferent that we may be that we may speak the truth and defend against falsehoods with loving kindness.
>> What was the serenity prayer? Uh God grant me the serenity. Now >> the what is it?
to somebody remind me the strength to change the things I can the >> the patience to you know deal with things and they can't and the knowledge the wisdom to know the difference yeah exactly >> that largely covers it it's also it's not an orthodox prayer but it's pretty accurate decent one >> so zeal for things that are right when you are called to act patience for things that you must bear and endure and uh and in all things especially the wisdom to know the But uh wisdom to know when uh which is the loving and edifying thing to do to show zeal or to show patience.
>> It's a very zealous question to ask. Is it?
>> I would imagine so because I think after quite a bit of time um more wisdom takes over than the zealousness. there is a learned experience um that takes over and the the zealousness is coupled with um a certain type of patience. I I do know that this decision now that we're talking Father Saraphim, you know, it's it's come out quite um late for some people who have been, you know, glorifying him for a long time.
>> Yeah. He's been venerated for a while.
>> Venerated for a long time. And so the church always moves quite slowly as we as we mentioned. And life in the church is also um again it's not a it's not a race, it's a marathon. And this marathon that we that we run the zealousness that flame that one is given at the beginning um will dim because of all of this identity that the church is trying to tie in or gets tied to it. And naturally we have these um expectations or shoulds that we are um coming into the church with this baggage and that that is all quickly fleeting. So the um when you want to respond with zealousness uh that might be a good indication that we need to um take a step back and examine where do we where is the zeloness coming from? Is this coming from our ego or is this something that uh indeed Christ is trying to drive us towards?
>> One of the tropes you hear for saints is that they're strict with themselves and merciful with others.
>> But often times people want to be strict with others and merciful on themselves.
That's that >> that's definitely my preference.
>> That's yeah, that's the preference. But I think what father says is if you're like most of the time the zeal is not zeal to do work on yourself. if it's zeal to point out someone else's mistakes, >> which also not like the publican, >> right? In most cases, >> call down fire from heaven, you know.
Yeah. Burn them up.
>> Yeah. If you can, if you're if if you're into that sort of thing, >> a son of thunder. Uh this question from Patriot CXC5443.
$20 sends a super chat. Thank you so much, Mr. Patriot or Miss Patriot, don't know. What is your opinion on ethnosentric Orthodox churches, which at times may make new converts feel unwelcomed? How important is English in growing orthodoxy in America?
>> Critical >> father still your >> foundational >> people need to be spoken to in their vernacular otherwise they're just not going to understand what's happening.
>> But I do want to point out there's a common notion that ethnic parishes are unfriendly and isolating. There's nothing more ethnic than a pack of Anglo. All right. True. So the idea that somehow you know that this is something exclusive to Russians, Greeks or whatever. Uh, churches can oftenimes be very inward-looking and uh, but the language issue I think is incredibly important if you can't understand what's being said. Not it's worse often times than people realize because you're not being exposed to the teaching of the church and you're sort of using often times people I've noticed they're sort of using the church services as kind of like a mystical background to whatever is going on in their head which I think is problematic.
we we the uh I think we run into challenges especially I've seen it where a church is primarily a particular ethnicity Russian or Greek or and uh and therefore they they they see no if if there are no American inquirers there in the church then who are we doing the English for and so they just serve in the language of the ethnicity and uh but I think by and large we're it would it's incumbent upon these ethnic groups, ethnic parishes to recognize that that language especially the ancient form of the language church savanic uh ancient Greek is no longer understood by the younger generation or even by the many of the older generation and therefore the English is extremely important to preserving the the the understandability of the services the comprehensibility >> for sure >> uh it's especially uh for younger people and for the uh uh I don't know 20omes 30omes who have married outside their ethnicity and hope to bring their spouses and children into the church.
>> So the the the English is very often the key to preserving the ancient Greek or the Savonic because otherwise it will become the Latin of the Orthodox Church and will cease to be an effective liturggical language. Well put, Father.
Uh, Eligam sends in $5 and asks, and maybe if if you're there listening, maybe you can expand on this. I'm not quite sure I get it. Fathers and brothers, I have never been able to find when the Orthodox Church, quote, became a term of art. Your thoughts?
>> I don't know what that means.
>> I also don't know what that means. If you want to expand on that, we will hopefully be able to answer your question. Do we have any live audience questions at all tonight?
>> No. Everyone's just hungry. Do they want to eat pizza?
>> Probably.
>> Father, do you have any closing remarks that you can leave our uh our audience with about identity, about Father Sarah from Rose, about the struggles of this world that we face, nihilism, uh the fake alien rapture that's coming, the you know, whatever, whatever you want to talk about.
>> More live audience question.
>> Live audience question. Sorry.
>> Which character book would you guys say is like the most >> approachable? Genesis I fathers forgive me I would say Genesis uh early creation man is a really good one and the orthodox revival guide is very very good >> it's Genesis creation and early man >> early man Genesis creation early man thank you father >> I think revelation to the human heart god's revelation to the human heart is probably the most successful >> that's the most successful and it's also very I've actually given that to friends that are not orthodoxy >> that's one of his best words >> but for you you could you could do yeah you could do more. Father Maximus, you're good to closing remarks.
>> Um, this is I think this is an important thing for us to realize. One of the there's other questions in the chat about uh spiritual warfare and uh prayer etc. And they all come together to be a Christian. You have to struggle and you have to struggle to the point where you're praying. You can be you can't be orthodox where you're not making an effort to pray. But that will help. It's not just some drudgery that we do. If you treat it like it's just some kind of drudge thing that you do, you're not going to make the progress. And it will help you shed the baggage. It will help you shed the ideologies so that you're not you're not struggling to, you know, make being Christian your main identity.
It will shine through. I think the example of that we have is Father Sarapim who was, you know, he he's not he could be alive today. I mean he'd be old but uh he's of or close to our generation and successful you know person in the world but he he decided first he decided just to go to that church and attend church next thing you know it took him over and it became his identity. I think that's the most important thing but if you just keep the church and the writings of the fathers and the prayers of the holy fathers at a distance and then you say why why why is there no change? It's because you didn't you didn't make the effort.
If I could just add to that, father, the excellent remark, orthodoxy is the only thing that you can safely allow to become your whole identity because instead of consuming you, it fulfills you and you grow to your full potential in every aspect of your life. So, >> and if there's no growth, that might not be actual orthodoxy. That might be something that you are inputting into it of your own flavor. Uh nothing that is uh of God will hurt you.
>> Very good. Fathers, thank you so much for this class. Uh maybe someday we will say you know St. Sarapim pray to God for us. So it hasn't happened yet.
>> From your lips to God.
>> Exactly. Yeah. It hasn't happened yet, but uh I can say that I think we're all fans of his work and you know like his conversion when somebody you following gets glorified when when uh father uh uh Pius was glorified uh recently you know what 10 years ago or something like that.
It's a it's a great somebody particularly someone you've read and you've studied and you've been edified for the for them to be added to the ranks of the saints is a great blessing.
>> Right. Exactly. So, fathers, thank you so much. Uh, if you haven't done so, please like, share, subscribe. This channel is growing. Send it to uh, you know, Sarah from Father Sarah from Rose Fan. Send it to a nonorthodox family member. Um, glory to God for all things. Father, would you take us out in prayer? Almost >> escape.
>> Shine and shine under Jerusalem for the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. Dance and be glad.
And do thou exalt in the arising of him whom thou is.
Glory to the father and to the son and to the holy spirit everges of ages.
Amen. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
>> God is with us through his grace and love for mankind always now and ever and unto the ages of ages.
Amen.
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