FONDA LEE talks writing, books, and The Last Contract of Isako

Added: 2026-05-08

[00:00:03]Okay, so I think we are live and I'm already seeing some people in the chat which is wonderful. Um, hello to anyone who's here in the comments. Hello to anyone who's watching down the corridors of time and also in particular, hello Fondly. How are we doing?

[00:00:19]>> I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, David. Uh, I was just berating you very very quickly before we went live on um, spoilers free, but a certain scene uh, in the Green Bone Saga that that lives with me still.

[00:00:32]>> Well, uh, I hope that it keeps living with people. It's hard to believe it's been that many years. I was like >> actually thinking back the other day that it's been almost 10 years since J City came out, which is wild.

[00:00:45]>> 2016. Yeah.

[00:00:46]>> Yeah.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah. Um, well, listen, what we'll do, I also have in front of me, I don't want to make it purely about Green Bone Saga because I also have a copy of The Last Contract to Buckle, which I picked up yesterday, uh, in the bookstore and had a tremendous time with it. Um, and so what I want to do is I want to keep this relatively spoiler-free across both Green Bone Saga, Last Contract of Isako, and your works generally, but I do think there are some overlapping themes and and motifs. I think that could be interesting to talk about as well. But I think the first thing I want to ask you very quickly is I think you're going on a bit of a jaunt soon, right? You're doing a tour of the US and the UK. Is that right?

[00:01:23]>> Yes. So, I'm going on tour in the US starting on release day May 5th next week and hitting uh oh my gosh uh Pittsburgh, New York, St. Louis, Atlanta, Austin, Toronto, and Boston.

[00:01:37]And then I get to be home for a couple of weeks while my in-laws visit. And then um hopping back onto a plane and heading over to the UK and I'll be at the Chimera Festival which I'm super excited about. I've never been to that event. And then uh touring around the UK. I'm doing Manchester Leads um London for a couple of events, Bath and then I'm heading to Poland um for the Peercon Festival. So it'll be a busy couple of months. pick up my my airline points.

[00:02:08]>> When you're doing these trips, do you get a chance to sort of explore the cities you're in or is it very kind of whistle stop?

[00:02:13]>> Oh, it it's just go go go. It it's fly in, get to the hotel, get to the event, uh get some dinner, go back to the hotel, rinse and repeat. So, it unfortunately I don't get a lot of time for tourism. Um, when I'm in the UK, I will have, I believe, a weekend of of semi- downtime. So, hopefully I'll get to enjoy London a little bit. Um, and then I will have a couple of free days when I'm in Poland. So, um, that will be an opportunity for me to do a little bit of sightseeing, but um, but other than that, it's it's a pretty hectic thing.

[00:02:53]>> Well, you know what? I might just skip to the question that I I mentioned previously to you before you went live.

[00:02:57]I think that this would be a good opportunity um because one thing I've heard you talking about in a number of interviews is is the word of mouth quality um that your books engender, particularly Green Bone Saga. I I've heard you say that the success from Green Bone, a lot of that was because of the word of mouth from the fans. And so I wanted to ask you as you're about to head on all these legs of touring, um are there any fan interactions or anything fans have done that are particularly memorable for you? Anything kind of exciting or or that you look upon fondly? Yeah, I I mean honestly there are so many tr there truly are um I've had fans um you know tell me send me emails that say that my books helped them through a really hard time in their life. They were going through something really difficult and being able to escape to John Loon and be part of the call family's trials and tribulations really helped them emotionally which is always just very very touching to hear.

[00:03:51]Um, and then I have some ones that are like s surprising and and funny. Um, I remember early on I was doing a signing for um, Jade City and a reader came up to me and said, "I'm an accountant and I just really want to thank you for representing forensic accounting in your book." [laughter] And and that was that was one of those unexpected um you know little like oh gosh like you know uh someone who doesn't get a lot of of of representation in in books appreciated that. And then [clears throat] um you know fans have also made me incredible art. Um, I've had them bring me little gifts that are incredibly creative, whether that be like coasters they've made or or um pieces of uh, you know, art that they've drawn or you know uh fan cast like they they often um are just so creative and that really warms my heart because I like to think of the things that I write inspiring other people >> to make their own art.

[00:04:59]And speaking of art, I think one of the things that I love about about your work before we get into the text, the words themselves, is the the gorgeous covers that your books tend to get um across multiple languages as well. I've seen the Polish cover of Green Bone Saga, for example, the Broken Binding editions that came out lately. Um there's some really gorgeous, how do I say, like pictorial accompaniment to your stuff as well, which quite rewarding.

[00:05:21]>> Yeah, just last week, um Subterranean Press revealed the cover for Jade Legacy. They're doing a an edition of the Green Bone Saga and the art there is amazing. I've had some very beautiful special editions, Alumac Crate and Broken Binding and Orbit Gold. Um, and it's I honestly I love every single one of them because when the books first came out, as you know, the original covers are just very bold, but they're just font, right? It's just a Jade City and huge letters. Um, and so for the longest time, for years, I was so jealous of people who had art on their covers. And it's like, [clears throat] ah, art. I wish I had art. Um, and, uh, to see like future editions have like, um, have really beautiful art is super satisfying because, um, what really people connect to in the books are the characters. Um, and I hear that all the time is they say they, you know, they they just really felt connected to what the characters went through. and they want to see them depicted.

[00:06:25]>> Do you know what? That kind of segus into a question I wanted to ask you because um and feel free by the way if anyone's in the chat and they have questions of of their own. Don't let me don't let me hog the space here, guys.

[00:06:35]Um but one thing I really love the way that you talk about your characters because um on the one hand you talk about their construction and and the fact that they they change from draft to draft which I find very interesting and maybe the first draft you don't quite know who they are and they it becomes clearer as you go on. So there is a level of, you know, creativity there, but at the same time, you often talk about the characters almost like your friends a little bit and how close you feel to them. And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit and maybe we could talk about Isako in this case.

[00:07:03]Um, where characters come from for you.

[00:07:06]Um, how you go about kind of nurturing them and growing them on the page. How does your how does your characterization and character construction work for you?

[00:07:13]Yeah, oftentimes my characters start as fairly broadstrokes archetypes. So, in the case of the Green Bone Saga, it was um a family, right? And I knew that it was going to be a family saga. And the main characters really started as um sibling archetypes. So, responsible eldest big brother, you know, the tempestuous uh middle child who's kind of chaos and then the spoiled youngest child. Um, and so that was kind of, you know, the the most very very bare bones um starting place.

[00:07:57]and I really had just kind of an aesthetic for the story and had to like then figure out what's the plot, what are the characters and um though from those that that like very >> bare bones starting place I then like figure out okay who are these people on a very specific and tangible level and what are the relationships between them because we're so defined by who who we relate to and who we are in different social contexts. So you know um each of the call siblings their history and their kind of particular personality just grew up through the whole drafting process. And then with it was a somewhat similar thing in which that um in that I wanted really to have this uh old trope of um you know the grizzled veteran who is on their last job, right? like this is a trope that shows up frequently in fiction, especially like detective fiction. Um, you know, often times like uh you know there's there's adventure fiction where it's like okay the you know the hero who has to come back for for the last mission. Um but of course I I wanted um her to feel very much like her own individual person. Um, and I related to her because um, of like the fact that she's sort of at a certain age where she's like not moving as fast as she wants to anymore and um, and has this like uh, you know, this this background working for these like powerful directors. I used to have used to work in management consulting. So, I kind of put a lot of my like previous career in business into her. Um, as well as like her ambivalence about like getting older and all that. So I think every author infuses their characters with with a little bit of themselves. Um and so I I reach for that and I kind of take um this sort of archetype that I start with and then just slowly kind of refine and ref and refine it until I kind of get at the heart of who the person is. There's almost a well first of all before I come to that point um I have an older brother who's very sensible and a younger sister who is very organized and and strong and I'm stuck in the middle so I just view myself automatically as Hilo like by default I think I think I get to be Hilo and he's one of my favorite he's probably my favorite character in Green Bone as well so it works out very well for me. Um, but all that to one side, I did notice that from Greenborn, I mean, you've spoken previously about characters like Wen, who I love, um, and and Sheay, who I love, and it almost feels like Isako is you someone me I I posted in Reddit that I was doing this interview, and someone mentioned the fact that one of the themes that you have in in a lot of your works are kind of women's role in society. Um, and and strong women who aren't just necessarily women holding a sword at the front of the battle.

[00:10:58]>> Right. Right. and and to what extent are you are you taking the character of Isako and kind of extending some of those ideas that you had in in Greenbone and elsewhere?

[00:11:06]>> Yeah. Um that that's very true. It's a very astute observation that um you know oftentimes I am exploring how female characters navigate a world that is often very male dominated and often very um fraught with conflict and violence.

[00:11:27]Right. I tend to set my books in more of my I guess you would sort of testosterone um settings and and plots, right? Like the Green Bone Saga is, you know, it's a it's essentially a mafia family saga um which is if you look across cinema is extremely male-dominated. There's there's not a lot of female characters um in that genre um or in that you know uh in that realm generally um but uh they're not absent. They're absolutely there, right? Like any anywhere where there there's human endeavor, uh you know, women are taking a really significant role, whether it's a visible one or a less visible one. Um so a character like Wen, for example, um is is is me finding out how to subvert some of the the cliches around women in that genre. Um because, you know, when she first shows up, this was a very deliberate um move on my part. When she first shows up, she seems to be just like the the girlfriend, right? She's that kind of, you know, the the the mob girlfriend. She's probably going to be killed at some point. Um and then it'll like motivate some revenge by like the hero, you know? So there's she she's she comes off initially as like kind of a trope and then um I did that deliberately because I wanted to subvert that and to um to show a her role as being um incredibly influential but in like a different way in a soft power kind of way. And um a lot of, you know, quote unquote, strong female characters, especially in speculative fiction are depicted as strong because they can keep up with the men physically, right? Like they're badasses. They're, you know, they're they're good at fighting. Um, and you know, they're they're kind of the the exceptional um specimen, right?

[00:13:30]Like think Wonder Woman, right? Um but I I would argue that like that's a very flattening way of looking at female strength and contribution resilience is like oh okay yeah sure there are you know the the women who are physically keeping up with the men and able to you know kick ass on the screen or on the page but there's so much more dimensionality that you can bring to the idea of a strong female character and witho I wanted that to be kind I wanted it to be a blend this idea of her her strength because she is a badass like she it's sort of uh you know set up very early that she um has a very long and storied reputation. She's the fastest woman with the blade um in in their world. But um that is fading like she's getting older. She's at the end of her career. um she has regrets about how little time she spent with her daughter because she's been, you know, so busy having, you know, this this career and she um so she's wrestling with that. Uh but her strength um and and her resilience has to now take on a different um a different angle, a different perspective because the things that she's known for um are, you know, are are no longer kind of what they used to be. Um so it's kind of a a the story is sort of a journey of self-discovery for for her um as well.

[00:15:10]And honestly, I just feel like there aren't enough middle-aged female protagonists in speculative fiction, and I wanted to add one to the cannon.

[00:15:18]>> Yeah, it's interesting just going back to when very very quickly. I mean, one of the most powerful scenes that I will refer to very obliquely in in Green Bone is a moment for when she she would be more than more than what's the word if she threw in the towel. No one would blame her, but she keeps going. And that kind of level of Do you know kind of what I'm referring to? Yeah, >> possibly.

[00:15:39]>> I mean, yeah. and and >> she goes through a lot. I I do feel bad for how much I put her put her through.

[00:15:44]She >> but there's still that level of iron and although being emotionally devastated is still emotionally solid enough to persist and I think a lot of that comes through in Iso as well and you know I mean it's no spoiler that she thinks this is her last job. So the fact that she continues to have um this this this power there I I really one of my favorite parts of the novel quite frankly.

[00:16:06]>> Thank you. If we could segue to other strong women, my sister is in the chat um and she has a question, [laughter] so I would like to just pass it on to her very quickly. Um, which of your book universes would you live in?

[00:16:19]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:16:20]>> Probably not.

[00:16:21]>> Uh, yeah. I Yes. Not not a kilo. Um, goodness. Uh I there's defin Okay, let me think about this. I can think back on my book universes here.

[00:16:39]>> Yeah, you frozen fondly.

[00:16:40]>> Yeah. So, okay. Uh, you know, this is going to be a whole, I guess, a real blast the past, but my my debut novel um was called Zeroboxer, and it's a science fiction novel about a uh athlete who is competing in the sport of zero gravity prize fighting. So, um I feel like I would like to see that. And we're not too far away. I mean, I saw the clips of the astronauts, the Aremis mission, um, doing WWE moves on each other. So, I feel like that's not out of reach. Uh, but because I've spent so much time in it, I have to say the Green Bone Saga world because at this point, yeah, I want to I want to have some Jade powers. I mean, I want enough Jade Powers to appreciate it, but maybe not to be like a fist who has to face a lot of life and death situations. So, I think I would like to go to the academy, earn my jade, and then work under Sheay in Ship Street in a relatively safe office job.

[00:17:52]>> I think that's probably a good answer. I mean, Akilo, I mean, the world feels a lot more brutal than than the world of Janu. Um, and you know what? Maybe it'd be it'd be a good thing to just set the stage a little bit more. I know we've been kind of amling about and and in the first 18 minutes, but I'd love for you to talk about where the last contract of Eycle came from because I I know you've spoken about Green Bone and an idea came to you and you wrote it in your book and then a couple of years later it started to grow and develop and lots of research was laid on top of that.

[00:18:19]>> How how similar was the writing and the the conception of The Last Contract of Isac because I know you've said also that it kind of went through some structural shifts.

[00:18:28]>> Yeah. So, um, similar situation in that I had the idea and then, uh, did not actually get a chance to write it for several years because, um, it I was writing the Rainbow Saga at the time.

[00:18:44]>> So, the original Genesis came from a party at a convention in which um, I was joking that like >> everything is made better if you just add like the words with magic or in space, right? So you can come up with a great idea for a speculative fiction novel by just adding with magic or in space. So I was saying well like for example we a couple of friends and I were just riffing on the idea and I was like oh pirates with magic or like samurai in space and then my friend was like you you should do a samurai space book. I would totally read a samurai space book from you. And I was like, "Yeah, I I would want to write that book, but I was not in a position to to work on it for a while." And I just liked the idea. Um, and and and largely because I am a big fan of the Chambara Surai film, films of um, Akira Kirasawa and uh, Misa Kobayashi and like I I love that genre. Um and um I wanted to return to science fiction after doing the Green Bone Saga. Um it had been many years since I since I had written a science fiction novel and um I wanted to kind of mash together things that I was inspired by. So just the sort of the gem of the idea of samurai in space um with the the some of the the themes and um you know the the kind of plot ide plot structures of like Kirusawa but with um cyberpunk uh connections um and about a you know a a middle-aged female protagonist and I love the idea of a isolated colony planet with like extremely harsh and forbidding environment um like Dune but um I don't really know the first thing about the desert. Canadian. So instead of the desert, I went with frozen tundra because that was like a a bleak and desert landscape I am familiar with. And um the pieces just kind of came together, but initially I did not um conceive of it as a standalone novel.

[00:21:02]And originally um I had pitched it to my editor as a duogy. and she looked at my outline and she said, "You sure this doesn't work better as a standalone novel?" Um, I said, "No, no, it's a duogy and here's why." And if you once you read the novel, you'll understand why. Um, originally I thought it could be a duogy. And uh, I started writing it and partway through I said, "No, no, it's a standalone novel."

[00:21:34]>> [laughter] >> And so I restructured the whole thing as as a standalone novel.

[00:21:40]>> I heard as well that maybe the the ending was slightly different than than it is as it stands. Is that correct?

[00:21:47]>> Yes. So um I can't really explain how it changed without some pretty significant spoilers. Um, but the original ending was maybe a little bit uh it just didn't feel right because it it felt very expected like once you have the setup for the book um you know there's a Okay, how do I dance around this without spoiling [laughter] the end? just realiz so yeah the the original ending is maybe one that you would expect given the setup of the novel and um it felt it felt easy um it felt kind of um it felt like the simpler uh ending um and it just didn't it didn't feel like it hit the right emotional beat that I needed. did it to hit for iso's journey in particular.

[00:22:53]>> And sometimes that happens. Sometimes you you're writing along and then you just realize like gosh like you know this is this works better another way.

[00:23:02]Um but this is one of the one of the few projects I've had where um you know that it it made it went through that significant of a structural change. I I adored the ending. And I know we can't talk about it and I'm probably frustrating everyone who's watching again down the corridors of time, [laughter] but I I the last I can't say it. Let's just say the last the last quarter. Um I I love what you do there and maybe some opportunity to talk about it or even I might, you know, make a comment later on down the line. But uh I think the ending is is for me one of the favorite my favorite parts of the novel.

[00:23:38]>> Me too.

[00:23:39]>> And we know what we're talking about and no one else does.

[00:23:40]>> We do. Yeah.

[00:23:42]Can I can I move on to maybe talking I mean we've spoken a little bit about the samurai element and and the the violent element and the combat element but I'd like to um dig a little bit more into that if that's okay or we have someone else who um adored the ending too. So two for two. Um but I wanted to to ask you about the martial arts because I know yourself you are a black belt in and more than one martial art. Is that correct?

[00:24:06]>> Yeah. So I started off training in uh Shodakhan karate when I was fairly young. Um and did that for many many years um and second degree black belt in that and then I moved and I started doing um Shelon style kung fu. I did that for many many years and have black belt in that. I've done little smatterings of other martial arts along the way including um Brazilian jiu-jitsu and taichi. So yeah, martial arts has been a part of my life.

[00:24:39]>> I got to uh yellow belt in junior high school. My instructor realized that when he was asking me to do the punches, I was doing them with my eyes closed. So because I was so scared of the [laughter] violence and he had a word with my parents that maybe it wasn't the pursuit for me. Um [laughter] the reason I bring it up is because I'm sure like I don't want to ask the question and be silly to say how important are your martial arts scenes are are they to your books because I'm sure they're tremendously important. I guess the question is, how do you go about constructing a good fight scene, especially a hand-to-hand combat scene to the level of satisfaction that I'm sure you require of yourself?

[00:25:13]>> Yeah. So, I always enjoy writing the fight scenes because they're they're easy for me, honestly. They they unspool in my mind very rapidly. Um, and I can almost always do the first draft just basically almost dictating the way that it's playing out in my mind. Um, and then I spend a lot of time revising it, trying to get it to feel right, um, from a pacing standpoint because the challenge with writing a fight scene in pros is that, um, unlike, uh, seeing a fight scene on a movie, you don't want to depict everything that's happening. If you were to just transcribe every move that is choreographed on screen, it would be incredibly long and boring. Um, and you would just have this these long paragraphs of, you know, every every single technical detail. And that's not really um that doesn't make for for a a particularly compelling um read. The advantage that the pros author has over the filmmaker is that we can get into the character's head. That's that's our advantage is interiority and we can bring the reader with us into the experience of the fight even though we don't have the ability to u convey the visual aspects of the fight in as great a detail. So, the core um element for me of nailing a fight scene in pros is connecting the reader to the combatants experience. And the only way to really do that is through emotional stakes. So, I have to make sure that the fight scene is set up in a way that um the stakes are really clear and the reader is really invested in what happens in this conflict. Um, and that on top of that they are worried because I think if you're if you're not really worried for the character then, you know, the a large degree of the impact of of the fight scene is lost. And it could be you're worried they're going to die. You're worried that they are going to be injured or you're worried that something is irrev irrevocably going to change. um you know there there have to be there have to be significant narrative stakes to the story and then from a tactical standpoint I need to make sure that the reader is able to visualize what's going on um so that the parts that I'm not putting onto the page they just fill in in their mind. Um it's almost like uh I don't I don't know. It's like a like a like a trick of stopotion animation sort of where it's like okay you can show you know you can you you can show a character in in one or actually a graphic novel is maybe a little bit of a better analogy right like if you are writing graphic novel you're writing a comic book right comic books have tons of fight scenes >> um and they're very action-packed but they're static images right but if you see a character who is like loading up a punch in one frame of a comic book and then the next one the next frame you see the opponent flying backwards with like blood streaming out of their mouth. You didn't actually see that happen but your mind filled the gap in between frame A and frame B and you see it just as it it filled it in just as effectively as if you had seen it on a on a screen. Um and I think the pros writer can do that as well. Um because we can we can make the key moves and the key um turning points in this fight clear and compelling enough that the reader then like fills in how it's like unfolding in in the moment. It's it's kind of I think part of the reason I as a reader slash consumer of of content tend to prefer manga over anime because manga it's as you say it's panels but sometimes I feel like anime and I don't want to just brush the whole you know media but can sometimes lean in a bit too much to that punch punch kick kick kind of procedurality that maybe you're talking about.

[00:29:51]>> Yeah. I think sometimes you do have, you know, the the anime episode where like the fight lasts for the entire episode.

[00:30:00]And, you know, to be fair, they often stop for like extended flashbacks to tell like the backstory of everybody who's in the fight. Um, but yeah, you're you're right. um in that like with [snorts] oftenimes it's the constraint of the medium that can lead to greater creativity and effectiveness. Um and and I think like with with manga with fight scenes and pros um you demand more of the reader, right? like the reader has to take more of an active part to make the fight scene interesting because at least half of it is unfolding in their own brain. So if they're engaged, they can make that fight scene super exciting, right? Like you can the reader can be playing the soundtrack for the fight scene in their mind, right?

[00:30:52]Like you didn't have to hire Han Zimmer to score it. Like they just made it up themselves. Um, but of course, if you haven't set up the emotional stakes and they're not invested, then it's going to be boring. It'll be a boring fight scene for them.

[00:31:05]>> Yeah. Can I ask a slightly cheeky follow-up question, which is that you said that you look forward to the fight scenes. They're like candy to you.

[00:31:11]There's something to kind of, you know, you anticipate them. Is there any type of scene or part of a story that gives you trepidation as you approach it? H.

[00:31:21]So any really intense emotional confrontation um >> or that is like or one that has a lot of emotional subtext um like let's say let's say it's a uh a confrontation between two people who know each other really well and they are u like some sometimes there would be there were a lot of these in the Green Bone Saga um where Yeah. And Isco as well where um there's there's a lot there's a a an emotional heaviness, but a lot of it rests in what is unsaid um rather than what is said. Um and those are challenging because uh when you when you first write them, you're just trying to kind of get the story out and so they feel very on the nose. The dialogue feels very paint by the numbers, right? Like, you know, I can't believe you betrayed me and like that's so, you know, I I feel hurt by whatever. It's like it it's dialogue that real people don't really you don't really say and >> skeletal like that's the structure before the building is built, >> right? And then um the process of revising it is often about subtracting >> what is actually said and infusing it with more uh subtext >> and now the conversation happens more with like with a little bit more obliquely. Um, and it could be with with gestures, body language, tone of voice, uh, looks, glances, and and it's challenging to figure out, you know, other ways to say he gave her a look, you know, like when it's like they know what the look means.

[00:33:20]Like there may be characters who they give each other a look and like they know what that look means, but you as the writer is like, "Okay, how do I how do I express what it means when character A gives character B the look?"

[00:33:32]Um, and then the other type very similar and related are the scenes where there's a lot of political maneuvering. Um, >> and there's a lot of those scenes in Iso as well as in in the Green Bone Saga.

[00:33:45]>> The political maneuvering scenes are so vital to my books because they are very heavy on like political intrigue. Um, but they uh need to have a level of tension that I can't create with physical conflict. I can create tension by having my characters ambushed by people with knives. Like I I know how to do that very easily. But creating a scene in which the boardroom or the meeting or the family dinner feels just as tense um because there is stuff there's a conflict going on. But like on a verbal and psychological level is uh those are challenging scenes to write.

[00:34:27]They take they take a lot of finessing.

[00:34:30]I I really enjoy them, but they they're challenging.

[00:34:33]>> It's interesting the overlap there between both fight scenes and dialogue and tension here is all about the gaps.

[00:34:38]Where do you put the gaps? Um >> yeah. Um and oh, there was something else I was going to say, but I can't quite remember it, but that so fascinating to me. I think also going back to the the idea of dinners and boardroom and and kind of creating tension under the surface and having that that that layering. Um, it's often when when everyone's talking normally, that's when the tension is really skyrocketing because everyone's just pretending that the elephant in the room doesn't exist and we all know the elephant's there.

[00:35:04]>> Yeah. Um, yeah. A scene that comes to mind for me is there's there's, you know, there's a scene in in the Green Bone Saga where Hilo is having a perfectly perfectly normal seeming conversation. Um, but you know that you know this is not going to end well >> for certain other people in the room.

[00:35:28]>> Can I go for another question in the chat because I do think this one from Von Royoft here is is very interesting.

[00:35:35]Um, regarding surprises, Green Bone is so gaspw worthy. And I'll I'll also just add von that that last contract ago also has some gasps in it made. Um, your surprises feel authentic rather than gimmicky. Are there any advice for writers on how you can build that suspense? I guess we've talked about some of that already organically, but is there anything else that comes to mind there, Fonda?

[00:35:56]>> So, the the thing about making a really big narrative turning point um land is that ideally it should feel surprising and yet inevitable.

[00:36:14]So, um, it should ideally be a situation in which the reader knows that something is going to go down and they know this situation, this conflict or tension is unsustainable. Something's going to happen. Someone is going to try to assassinate someone or someone is going to reveal the secret or someone is going to take drastic action. So, they know it's coming. They know something's coming, but they don't know how it's going to go down. And so when it happens, it's like, "Oh my gosh, like I didn't see that coming, but I should have." Um, and and it should feel like if you've done your job right as a writer, that the signs were there. And so you have to make sure the signs are there.

[00:37:08]So if there if you have a big surprise event moment in the story there you have to then go back and make sure that the breadcrumbs have been laid but they need to have been laid in an ambiguous way so that those breadcrumbs could have also led to something else.

[00:37:29]So that way when the thing happens it's like oh yeah that is of course that is that was foretold you know and in in the narrative that it makes sense that that's what happened but it didn't have to go that way because you also laid the you laid the breadcrumbs in a way that was like an ambiguous pattern. Um, it's almost like like if you you know if you open a fortune cookie and you get one of the fortunes in the fortune cookie and it gives you some sort of like vague generalized advice like the last fortune cookie I opened said something like um you know a a change of environment will make all the difference. And I'm like, what? Okay.

[00:38:13]Like, it could have I I'd recently moved house, so like it could have been referring to that, right? It could have been like I'm also like trying to, you know, make changes to my like my office.

[00:38:24]Okay. Is it referring to that? Is it like is it referring to the fact that I'll get more more productive in my writing if I just go to the coffee shop and write there? So, it could be referring to any number of things, right? Um but you know if if something happens where a change of environment like does make a big difference I'll be like oh that is what the fortune cookie was told. So you kind of want to have you want to have those breadcrumbs where it's like okay something was enough was said you know the the the threads of this of this event have been laid but you didn't see the pattern until you got there. And then when you get there, it's like, yes, that's the only that is what makes sense. Like that's what you know that it all the pieces fell into place, but um you couldn't discern it from from where you were >> for one. That's that's all I'll say. Um, yeah. And it's interesting going back to the fortune cookie analogy because how many people, just going back to to character as well, how many people read that fortune cookie and then go on to make that change and it almost becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:39:31]>> Mhm.

[00:39:32]>> Very common as well. Um, if we have a we bit of love for Breath of the Dragon, I did want to just acknowledge this as well.

[00:39:39]>> Yeah. Um, >> yep. Book two comes out in October.

[00:39:43]>> Well, I actually someone on on on Reddit wanted to ask you a question to that effect. um because I know you've written, you know, the trilogy of the Green Bone Saga and each book gets gets longer and and the time gaps get wider and there's some structural stuff going on there. Iso uh being a standalone originally a duogy um you have, you know, a number of standalones like Untethered Sky um and then and then your short story collections, all that stuff.

[00:40:05]So, you've written a variety of of lengths and and um structural things thrown in there as well. And so someone asked me to ask you and I think this would be a good moment going for Breath of the Dragon which was a collaborative exercise. How different is it for you writing book to book when each project feels so different and maybe there are different editorial staff and things like that going on. Do you find that the process is pretty similar each time or wildly different?

[00:40:30]>> It can be wildly different. Um I not in my process necessarily because I think that my process of character development of world building is and research is fairly consistent. Um but each project has different needs. Um and there ranges and the deadlines range. um the nature of the project ranges whether you know for example breath of the dragon being a collaborative project that process was very different because I had to make sure that um you know my coowwriter Shannon and I were on the same page going into the drafting. So, we put a ton of upfront work into outlining the book so that um there would be given especially because there's two of us and there's you deadlines and so on, we wanted the story to feel very dialed in before we start drafting. Whereas, if I'm writing by myself, I might give myself a little bit more leeway to go on like some random tangents and and and take a little bit more time to to figure it out as I go along. Um, and then like uh the level of upfront planning required for something like a trilogy is completely different than that required for a novela. A nolla I can kind of hold the whole story in my head with a minimal amount of of outlining while like the Green Bone Saga had this huge spreadsheet with dates and and a ton of, you know, details.

[00:42:06]So um so every project also is different because of the nature of the narrative.

[00:42:14]So iso and not to spoil it too much there are sections I wrote completely separately um because they required a different um different narrative voice.

[00:42:26]Um, and same with like Jay Boore for example. Um, Anden has a his storyline set in a completely different location.

[00:42:35]And even though in the book you're alternating between stuff that's going on in one place and stuff that's going on in another place, from a writing perspective, for uh narrative continuity in my own mind, I had to write all of those chapters sequentially and then these others sequentially and then like figure out how they get spliced together and how the timeline syncs up. Um, so yeah, every every project is a little is a little bit different. Um, but I I think like the the nuts and bolts of writing are the same. The like the creative process, the the coming up with care. Same with like people often ask me what's different when you're writing young adult fiction versus adult fiction.

[00:43:22]>> And um I would say it really just comes down to like point of view, right? like the the young adult fiction is always going to be from the perspective of an immature and self-centered 16-year-old or 18-year-old. And so like their point of view is just fun their voice is just kind of fundamentally different and the expectation from the reader as far as like pacing and tightness of the story are different. Um, so the narrative needs drive drive a lot of this decision- making.

[00:43:55]>> I've also heard you talk a lot about your your research and especially for the Greenbone Saga that you you know did a lot of kind of deep dives into maps of of various kind of Asian cities for example. Uh, am I right in saying that John Lon is also based on the the subway system is based on Toronto. Is that right?

[00:44:10]>> It is. Yeah.

[00:44:12]>> I I love that map. I don't want to spo spin us off into a different tangent, but open up >> Jade City. I love a good map. I love a map, but usually you open up a map and a fantasy book and it's here is the here is the continent of such and such. Yeah.

[00:44:26]Um and there's something real nice about opening up a map and seeing street names.

[00:44:29]>> Um >> yes, >> but I I guess my my question to this isn't so much about Green Bone as Isako.

[00:44:34]Um where did you put your research time into when you were writing Isako compared to Green Bone?

[00:44:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. So um the main actually one of the things areas that I ended up really going deep in was the history of company towns. So the planet of Achilo is essentially a company town. Um, and that came about because I very I wanted this um this world to feel essentially like uh a thief unto itself. Um, leaning into that idea of like the the samurai story, right? Um, some of the key elements of samurai fiction are that the characters live in a very um, strictly stratified society in which the power of the lord, the daimo um is so absolute. Um, and uh, their expectations, the expectations upon the samurai for loyalty and duty are so strict. Um and they do when they go against it um you know and and oftentimes the heroes do um it does not end well for them. Right? So, think of 47 Ronin or 13 assassins or you know the seven samurai. Um they are standing up for downtrodden or um you know oppressed um or threatened people um or they're they're taking vengeance or they're you know they're doing something but they're they're oftentimes they're disobeying the Lord and this is like not working.

[00:46:22]This is not going to end well for them because of their society and the way things are structured. like you don't go against the Lord. Um so this doesn't end well and yet like the heroism is in the fact that they did they went against um the expectation the the rules of their society and you can you really only get that in like this this very kind of like uh hierarchical and strict context. Um and I wanted to draw those connections with the genre of cyberpunk. So cyberpunk has um is is really characterized by this idea of like high-tech low life, right? We have advanced technology, but there it's there's also crime, there's corruption, there's, you know, there's there's these people who are kind of like the the detritus of society in one in a society that has like this this technology but also all these social problems. Um, and the connection that is often found between cyberpunk and um, samurai fiction is this idea of like the the the lone hero who is um, who's fighting the system, right? Like the ronin >> who could be who could be literally a ronin, a masterless samurai or is like the hacker, right? or the thief or who the the person who's who's you know uh kind of on on the bottom of society um in in the cyberpunk world and the cyberpunk world a feature of that also is like the mega corporation right instead of the lord or the damo having absolute control it's the mega corporation so there's like these these wonderful thematic linkages between these two genres and back to your original question of like research. Um the the like the there's a a long history of like company towns of corporations basically creating their little thieftdoms or societies.

[00:48:32]Um, and this includes places like, you know, a place that's not far from where I live now, l Massachusetts, which was like a textile a company controlled textile town. Um, and the company controlled everything. I mean, they made the habitations at the company store.

[00:48:49]You had a special currency. You could only use company script at the company store. And so, um, it was it it was essentially controlled by the employer.

[00:48:59]Um there are uh mining towns, logging towns are, you know, entirely company drill. And in a in a more modern context, um you know, Google and Disney are developing these like suburbs that are essentially company towns. Um and and so there's I was fascinated by this idea because there is this dichotomy um that happens with these company towns where some of them are conceived in a in a utopic way, right? like the there's a paternalistic element um which exists in in like you know the that that of like a benevolent feudal lord as well as you know a uh a corporation in Japan where it's expected that people would typically work at this company for life and the company would take care of you and these company towns there were ones where like it was it was basically the appeal was the company would take care of you and there was this utopic element to it where um you know They wanted to their workers to be well educated. They wanted them to have health care. They wanted them to have good roads. They wanted them have to have churches. So there was there was that kind of um benevolent oversight. And then there were company towns that were remark like horrifically exploitative [laughter] and and so you know there's that that like it could go both ways and and and sometimes sometimes there's there's that there's kind of both at the same time as well where it's like yes there yes you got free healthcare but also you worked 20 hours. So there's so that's kind of what I wanted to create with with the planet of Achil and I didn't conceive of it initially as being a dystopian story.

[00:50:48]It was only later after I handed it into my editor and like my publisher was was packaging it that they that they started um calling it a dis apian science fiction which I can understand because there are certain there's certainly elements that are that are dystopian but I didn't think of it that way. I wanted to kind of imagine what if, you know, the privatized space exploration companies, you know, that we that that we have now, you know, what if what if an Elon Musk like character, you know, with his dick rocket did get out there and colonize a planet and then stuff happens. You don't know like with with companies like there's restructuring, they go bankrupt, they lose political support, whatever happened, you know, something happened, >> right? And like so so this colony that was set up by a private space corporation and is in where its citizens are entirely beholdened to that space corporation that live in a company town now lose now now like lose a way like any any means of leaving, right? They're they're now stuck there.

[00:51:54]So, um that's kind of where a lot of the research went and then also a lot of research into uh into um Japanese swordsmanship and and uh kendo and jutsu and yes all of that as well.

[00:52:10]>> Uh my daughter who's three her favorite song right now is 16 tons by Tennessee Ernie Ford. I don't know if you know [snorts] it's all about this this man who owes his soul to the company and you know gets up and does the job and then goes back and is almost caught in in the web of the thing. Um did you find any any particular historical tidbits off the top of your head that are especially fascinating as you as you went down all these rabbit holes? Anything that really kind of punched its way long term?

[00:52:34]>> Yeah, I mean I think one of the like the history of L Massachusetts was actually really interesting because it is not very far from from where I live. Um, but then also I think just the the the current day examples of company talents um like uh and whether they they have a lot of them are no longer that um but like Corning, Pennsylvania or like Hershey, you know, the just I visited Hershey which is like it's a fascinating place because it has like >> it's so chocolate themed. I mean it's it literally has like [laughter] it's like visiting a chocolate theme park. Um, but it's a town. Um, so like I think that th those like um connections to like real places that I've been to um was was particularly fascinating. I also went down a bit of a research rat hole um into like whether you could transplant a brain um and this will become clear to anyone who who reads reads the book. So, like the actual like outlook for brain transplantation has some really freaky [snorts] history of like people doing some rather horrific experiments with dogs um and other animals. Uh >> is it is it possible?

[00:53:52]>> That's uh in short not given current technology but uh yeah but not but like many science fiction concepts not outside the realm of pos of of technological possibility.

[00:54:12]>> It's so uh there's so many threads to pick up on there. I guess one thing I'd want to ask you as a quick followup is I know that you have a background yourself before you were writing full-time in business and financing yourself. Is that right?

[00:54:23]>> Um >> yes.

[00:54:23]>> Is is there any crossover there with what you've written in Issa Co given your previous background?

[00:54:30]>> Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I really creating Iso, she was one of the easier characters for me to create because um I started off my career working in strategic management consulting. I would uh rack up a ton of airline points, flying every week and working 70 hours a week um on client projects. So that initial like that that life um of like you know being beholden to your client and working crazy hours and um that was uh something that like I just extrap like I there's a part of me that is like okay what if I had what if I had just never decided to follow my passion for writing and and not become a science fiction and fantasy author. And it just like kept on that path like would I have eventually become a partner? Like what what would have h you know I mean how long could I have worked like that?

[00:55:34]>> Like you know what would my life have been like? Um and and so there was a a bit of a self-reflective thought experiment involved in me creating ISO and you know imag imagining this this character who's devoted her life to to that sort of career. I mean granted hers is more dangerous and involves swords. Um but you know the concept is is there um of you know this uh yeah this this character who has kind of given her her life to the company essentially. Um, so, so yeah, definitely a lot of the like even the the sort of things that she has to do like she in order to get relicensed, she essentially has to do the equivalent of like a case interview, which I [laughter] did I did a lot of those. I know how case interviews work.

[00:56:30]I mean, hers are more stressful than mine. Um, but definitely >> well you say you say there's there's a difference between you and Isako in in the in the fact that Isako has a sword, but you could have also just have signed an NDA and you have to keep that side of your previous job secret, you know.

[00:56:44]>> Yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't tell you, you know. [laughter] >> I guess I guess >> although I'm sure would have expired by now.

[00:56:52]>> Yeah. I'm uh there there's so many things that you said that really fascinated me. I mean I I don't know if I've mentioned to you that I'm I'm in Tokyo right now and and there's various threads here like there in Japan there's something called black companies which are black companies where it's unofficially or officially mandated that you have to work 70 80our weeks and if you try and find a way out of that you get you get punished and then obviously the land of the samurai and falling on your sword which has always been you know a cultural difference you know um for me when I hear these these characters you know falling on their sword I'm like I couldn't do it I've got I've got an Amazon delivery next week do you know what I >> [laughter] >> Uh, so the the the cultural aspect is so fascinating to me and I guess that could maybe dovetail into one of my as as we kind of lead towards the conclusion here, this idea of of world building because I think some people when they say the word world building they think oh you know what color what color is the mountain or you know um are they using concrete or wood to build their houses but for me the most fascinating part of world building is the culture and the the societies that are built and one thing that I think is done so brilliantly in Green Bone Saga and in Isako is you've constructed a world that is not just what color are the mountains over there, it's also the societies and the peoples.

[00:58:02]>> Um how how do you go about building culture? Surely that is one of the most significant challenges as a speculative fiction author and that's a question that fascinates me.

[00:58:13]>> Yeah. Um I love that aspect of world building. To me, it's the most fascinating aspect. Yeah. Is the culture. And the culture >> is so macro and micro.

[00:58:27]>> So there's elements of world building culture that are like high level like >> you know how how is the society structured? Who has power? Um >> what are the norms? Um what are the most deeply held beliefs? what do they uh what do they as a people abhore and fear you know and so there's there's that level and then there's the like micro level of like what are the idioms how do people swear how do they address each other how do they sit down at a t like so all of those little thing like I love the range of like how culture is is a living breathing thing in in the story world >> um And being able to like figure out what culture is like on all of those different levels is like such a fun challenge for me. Um because I love thinking about the big picture. I also love like coming up with the names of cars. So like everything and everything in between. Um the I I what I bear in mind when I create culture is that like it all comes down to environmental pressure. Our culture is is so so um so driven by what as a people was necessary for survival, right? Like and probably the best example of this is Dune in a spec in the speculative fiction world, right? The culture of Dune is so vivid and so well visualized.

[01:00:02]um you know especially like the Fman and like the way that they live. It's so driven by the hostility of that environment and the n like all and and you know everything again from like the way the sketch is organized to the fact that they spit as a sign of respect because you're giving up water, right?

[01:00:29]Like I I love that. And so that's that's something that I keep in mind is like how did this s like what were the environmental pressures and like kind of the realities around um around this this uh around their surroundings and and um what they had to do. Um, and with the Green Bone Saga, it was the the real driving force is the fact that they are on an island with this very dangerous and powerful substance that can make people super strong, but is also very dangerous. Um and that is like that that is the it's the environmental pressure that then like creates so much of like the deci all the decisions that I made around um you know how their society how the Greenbone culture is is developed right so every everything from like their code right the code of Aisho is a way for like the society to protect those who do not have jade from those who do have jade and like that the those who do not have jade do not abuse their power and use it for the good of society. Um, and things like the dueling, right, that conflict has to be like has to be done out in the open so that you don't have these vendettas extending between like families with superhuman powered people for like a long. So all and and you know all of those little things and inseo it was really easy because I leaned very much into the dune approach, right? There is this planet and you cannot walk on the surface of it because you will die. So you really depend on the protection of the company because the company has the habitation that is protected by an air shield and that's where the oxygen and the heat is. And all of the beliefs that these people have um are driven by kind of the the the um the history that they have essentially being traumatized by this planet. So there is like an event in their history called the prosperity revolt where a heck lot of people died because the air shield came down and they all lost oxygen and heat and lots of people died. So um this drives a lot of the belief a lot of belief and a lot of um social norms and laws in their world. Um, and then they have their their society is kind of split between those who are really dedicated to terraforming this world and those that are dedicated to like making contact with other people in other planets and potentially getting the heck off the planet. So that is a result of the fact that, you know, their their planet is what it what it is. Um, so that's kind of like the the and and the swearing too, right? So, of course, like being on this planet, there would be, >> you know, they they would have profanity that's kind of related to, you know, the the things that that are either holy or profane in their world. So, yeah, environmental pressure basically is the is the short answer.

[01:03:49]>> And, you know, one thing that I I think that exists across your work is this idea of of culture and transition, right? Culture is what was a thousand years ago. Culture is also 50 years ago.

[01:03:59]Culture is also yesterday. Culture is also 10 years from now. and Elon Musk and his rockets. Um and and the one thing I love is that kind of continual transition and and the idea that the society is not static which seems to exist kind of in Isaco and I I mean that very intentionally because there is a level of stasis here that that's you know stated at the start of the novel and also very much in Green Bone and in fact I think in in Green Bone my favorite of of the three is probably Jade War and because we get that opening out into that broader world and you know the people in the island starting to navigate with each other and and other countries and other continents and that's it's so rewarding to read. I'm sure it's rewarding to write as well.

[01:04:36]>> It is.

[01:04:38]>> Um, can I now I do see an interesting comment about Anden that I do want to acknowledge, but I I know our time is short. Um, I will I will move on. Someone had a really interesting question, but if we have time um because one thing that I did, >> that was also one of my I will just say that was one of my favorite parts of the book.

[01:04:56]>> Can I tell you what the question was? um if you don't mind because the question that someone else asked was how was it um I've seen a few people talk about about sex and sexuality in your work and and how how to draw kind of good sex scenes and maybe there's a comparison there with our conversation on fight scenes and dialogue and maybe gaps are better than step by step. Um, but someone asked a question about Anden and um representing his his um how to put it, his journey as a gay man. Um, and and trying to get that on the page and I think I actually wrote the the comment down. So, let me actually get it. Yeah, here it is. Was it hard getting Anden's exploration of his sexuality and the comment of put in quotes right? Um, they were interested in your depiction of Anden in that in that regard. Yeah. I don't know what quote unquote right >> Yeah.

[01:05:44]>> is is the thing, right? Um and I don't think there is a quote unquote right way to depict a character of any identity or marginalization just as it's like there's not a >> authentic is the better word. Sorry. I think that's that's probably um I think authentic but not in like any sort of by any objective measure. Authentic on an emotional level.

[01:06:10]>> Yeah.

[01:06:11]>> Is what's important. Um authentic in a way that feels like it's true to the character >> um and true to the world in which he lives in and the social context that he navigates. Um, and from that perspective, no, because I have to do the same thing with every character, >> right? every character has some [laughter] h has something going on, you know, that that they have to deal with in their own life, whether it's like when being a stone eye or and in being gay or and biracial, um or, you know, uh she h you know, being being torn between her her uh desire to kind of like separate herself from her family versus her desire ired to be part of her family. So, every character's got something going on. Um, but I I it was important to me that Anden as a gay man was depicted as having a lot more going on than just his sexuality, right? Like that's not his main it's not his main issue. Like he's got got a lot of things going on. Um, and his sexuality is certainly part of who he is. Um, and I I I think it would it was an aspect of and it was an [snorts] important aspect for me to put into his character because it was yet another way to show that like he had particular unique position and challenges that set him apart from the rest of his family. And like that's a thing he goes through his whole life is like how do I navigate being like so different from my family and being viewed differently um with be with being a member of of like the Cole family and being a Green Bone. So I guess like with with Anden I just like I never thought of him as like oh I'm writing a gay character I have to get him right. Um, it's just that like I'm writing Anden and what's what's going on with him and how do I make his story feel true to him and and feel like it's emotionally real.

[01:08:40]>> Yeah. His his growth, I mean, across the series, but particularly in in Jade War is just it's phenomenal. And again, it's it's, as you say, it's not one aspect.

[01:08:49]It's him discovering kind of all all parts of himself and and rejecting some parts of himself without spoiling, you know, the series tremendously. Um, that makes him so rewarding. I guess another thing I was thinking of as you were speaking with characters dealing with stuff is is loss. You know, the characters that die in in both Isako and Greenbone and others, they remain they remain on the page and and and characters are altered for that loss.

[01:09:12]And maybe that goes back to the idea of culture and tra and transition. So yeah, lots of lots of plates to spin with characters. I'm realizing as I'm as I'm hearing you talk, >> there are more more characters, the more plates.

[01:09:26]>> Yeah.

[01:09:27]>> I mean, I'm a teacher by day, so spinning plates, you know, multiple ones.

[01:09:32]Yeah, >> I feel it. Can I ask you one final question? Um, and I think this is quite a nice one to go out on. Um, and it's I'm going to spoil one quote from Isako, and that's the dedication because what you wrote at the start, if I could just read it out rather than paraphrasing, is you've dedicated this work to my younger self, you'll get there, kid. Um, which I love. Which I love. Um, and and so thinking back on your career path, I guess what was the moment you felt like you got there? Have you you'll get there, kid? You know, what was the moment that you got there? And then do you have any advice for someone who is on that same path towards getting there?

[01:10:10]>> Gosh, that's that's deep. And and >> it's a big question in the final five minutes, isn't it?

[01:10:17]>> Yeah, for sure. Um the moment, you know, I think getting there is a process, not a destination.

[01:10:26]Like I I can't pinpoint a moment where I felt like, oh, I'm there.

[01:10:30][clears throat] And it's I think it's because I've always been very future focused. I am uh I I'm hopelessly, you know, addicted to planning. I am that person who like, you know, when the when the family vacation is on the calendar, I'm the one who's like trying to plan out every day and what we're going to do. And like with with my creative work, I'm like, "Okay, what's the what's the next book I'm going to write? What about the one after that?" And like I often have a plan for like oh these are like the next four books I'm going to write and sometimes you know I would say actually more often than not it does not go according to plan. I mean even though I have always been a person who likes to likes to know what's coming down the road and I plot my also like as a writer I tend to plot my stories and then write an outline and then eventually the outline gets thrown out because it changes along the way and invariably it changes along the way in writing in life in my career. I've always had a plan and it's always changed. Um this book is a great example. I had a plan. It changed and it worked out. It it worked out exactly the way it it needed to work out. Um, and so I think like there's never been a moment where I'm like, "Oh, like, you know, I've I've I'm there. I've I've arrived.

[01:11:54]I've achieved it." I mean there are certainly milestones um in in a in any career in a creative career especially because a creative career is so much behindthe-scenes drudgery punctuated by like these occasional moments of public acclaim. So there's like, you know, there's certainly moments, right, like the, you know, the, you know, winning winning the world world fantasy award or getting my first piece of fan art or, um, you know, getting my first book deal or um, you know, hitting the list or like there's there's all these, yes, there's all these moments that like are milestones, but they the funny thing about publishing and about like this career in general is they happen so much later than like the work itself.

[01:12:40]Right? You're you're toiling with the story and it won't be out for another year or two years and then it might not catch on and become and find its readership or get any sort of award or a claim for like another year after that.

[01:12:55]And so like three or four years have passed. Like getting a special edition for the Rain Bone Sag was like amazing.

[01:13:00]That happened years after I wrote that book. So by the time you reach it, you're on to like the next thing. And and I guess your question of like, okay, is there when did I feel like I've gotten there? I think I got there by getting comfortable with the process or getting like being like understanding that like there's always more. And I this is true for martial arts and with with writing as well. It's just like that acceptance of the fact that like it's an unachievable goal to become the best writer that you can be, you know, and to keep going after it and like, you know, just keep trying to like write what you want to write and do it as as well as you can. And like getting getting there isn't really a moment in time. It's just a like acceptance of like of of the art. And I I think my advice to to you know other people who are maybe maybe earlier on in that journey or or trying to get um going in a in an endeavor whether that's creative or career-wise or life-wise is um it is to kind of um be to have have those dreams and those goal those goals but to love the process of getting there rather than the than the the the reward rather than like the tangible thing that like and whether again whether that's like book deal or or you know seeing your seeing like your book up for an award or anything like that's that's outside of your control um isn't as important as as what's inside of your control, which is the art itself.

[01:15:07]>> There's almost an element of stuff trying to get to the rainbow, you know, and trying to get to the end of the rainbow and then it shifts to the next the next part of the land.

[01:15:15]>> Yeah.

[01:15:15]>> And just appreciating the rainbow, I guess. Did I Did I cut you off there, Fonda? Forgive me.

[01:15:19]>> No, >> we're okay.

[01:15:22]>> Yes.

[01:15:22]>> Well, listen, I think that's probably a good part to um end on. I know we're at time, so I just want to close up by saying thank you so much for for coming on. It really was a delight to to talk.

[01:15:33]>> Thank you. I mean, I hope I asked you one or two interesting questions.

[01:15:36]>> Oh, you definitely did. I mean, you gave me a lot uh more like existential reflection. Um, [laughter] >> it's why I made the chat was bargaining for, but it was it it's was really great. Thank you. And thank you to everyone who came into the chat and submitted questions. Appreciate you guys. last contract of physical the release date is May 6th 5th >> May 5th >> May 5th so >> coming up soon near you in a few days um Fonda thank you again um and thank you everyone for hanging out and I'll I'll see you in the next video okay bye guys bye