Heaven is a Horrible Scam

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-20

[00:00:05]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more.

[00:00:15]And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned in for her husband. heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look, the residents of God or the dwelling of God is among men. He will live among them and they will be his people and God himself will be with them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death will not exist anymore or mourning or crying or pain for the former things have passed away."

[00:00:51]Question.

[00:00:53]Would you like to go to heaven?

[00:00:58]Do you want to go to heaven is the question.

[00:01:03]Uh, come on into the chat, y'all. Let's get ready to chop it up.

[00:01:11]Uh, what's up, Noon? Good to see you.

[00:01:16]And Mythos boy, good to see you. What's up?

[00:01:20]Yeah, you finally made it. made it into the chat at the beginning this time.

[00:01:25]All right, let me see. Hold on. Let me figure out what I got to do here.

[00:01:29]Okay.

[00:01:33]Um, wow. I just figured out that I haven't been on Instagram this entire time. I finally figured out how to do it. Okay.

[00:01:43]So, then how do I I got to mute it.

[00:01:46]Okay. That's crazy. So, this the the whole month and a half that I've been doing these lives, I've been thinking that I was streaming to Instagram.

[00:01:55]Well, I was only streaming to Facebook and um and YouTube. I just figured out how to get it on Instagram.

[00:02:03]So, welcome Instagram folk. My unique Monique, what's happening? Good to see you. She says, "Good afternoon everyone and welcome in reason's name." Yes. Yes.

[00:02:14]Yes. Uh, hey Eddie. I made it on time almost. Uh, oh, we got a new salutations.

[00:02:22]More Life J Stars. Now, where's Daryl Williams at? Daryl Williams is gonna be, uh, he's gonna be on your case. He's normally the one that's here with the salutations. But, uh, More Life Jar, beat him to the punch.

[00:02:37]What's going on y'all? I'm glad to be here. My name is Be Good. I'm the host of this channel, Ikapod. Uh there's a story in the Bible where someone is told to name their child Kabad. Uh which means the glory has departed. God's glory has departed. Um well, I call this uh my my podcast.

[00:02:59]Uh when I realized that the glory had departed from my faith, from the Bible, from what I thought was true the my entire life.

[00:03:08]Somebody could probably look at me and say, "No, Brady, the glory of God departed from you." Well, let's just say we have mutual feelings about one another. Um, what I used to see as glorious, I now see as uh the manmade sham that it is. And I don't mind spending my time talking to folks to help them understand why I say it is a sham. And today we're going to talk about one of the biggest shams there are, and that is heaven.

[00:03:38]And you might say, well, what do you mean when you say heaven? You talking about some place up above the clouds?

[00:03:42]Well, we now know there's nothing up above the clouds, which is why Nahweh, the talking cloud up above my head.

[00:03:48]Nahweh had to descend to be with us because we realize that we cannot ascend up to the clouds. Um, in the Bible, the first people who spoke to us about the God of the Bible, the God of the Hebrews, they, like many of the people of their day, believe that gods dwell in one of two places. The gods either dwell at the top of very high mountains, typically places that most people can't get to.

[00:04:17]That way, it's unfact checkable. So, you put your god somewhere that you can't you can't go and expose him as a fraud, right? Um, think about the whiz uh the Wizard of Oz or the whiz, right? You put the you put the sham somewhere that you think people either can't get to or you create stories to make them feel like maybe we just shouldn't go there. Um, you know, you say he's up there in these clouds. He's he's shrouded in dark clouds and um, you know, you have to ascend to these mountains and only the select, only a few people can get up there and you don't even know if they even went to the very top. All you know is they they got out of your sight. They got high enough, but you don't know how high they actually got. But then they come back down and they tell you, "Okay, so here's what God is saying."

[00:05:05]Well, for much of the early part of the Bible, they hid God in mountains.

[00:05:11]They hid God in the space just above the mountains, what they call the raka or the dome.

[00:05:19]This is in Genesis 1:es 6-8. You have the rakia, this hard dome.

[00:05:26]And they didn't know that the sky was not a hard dome. But what they did think was, hey, we can stick God up there because no one will ever be able to get that high up to prove us wrong. So, let's just tell stories about our God being above the dome. And there are verses in the Bible where you see this happening. Um, Mythos boy is correct in the chat. Exodus uh 24 9-11 where Moses takes the 72 elders and they go up into the mountains and they look up and over top of them they see this like it says it's like it's like sapphire stone but basically it's the it's the it's the rake the sky dome. It's the ceiling for humanity but it's really just the floor for God. There's a verse in I think uh Job is it 22:14 uh where you where they have God walking on that dome like it's our our ceiling is his floor and you can tell stories about God being up there because you think no one will ever be able to go there. Now you you fast forward some time and you you see the ancient Greeks and you see Egyptians and you see them you see them doing these calculations about the earth and may the shape of the earth maybe it's maybe it's not a flat plane maybe it's not a a a a four cornered flat earth they said oh maybe it's a sphere so now you have to start reconfiguring what you think heaven is which is why when you get into the New Testament you have people like uh Paul talk about the third heaven Because now you start getting the idea that maybe what we used to think about the earth and the heavens, maybe it's not what we thought. Our calculations are coming back different now. We got to do some other things. And so you invent a third heaven because maybe we'll get to the first one or the second one. We we'll put God in the third one. All I'm saying is the way the stories have come down is you stick gods in places that you think men will never be able to get to. That way you can keep telling your stories and no one will ever be the wiser.

[00:07:31]Except man's mankind's uh unquenchable thirst for knowledge. We ended up going into the sky, going into the clouds, going into the heavens.

[00:07:43]There's an astronaut, not not uh what's the guy who just went there? I forget his name. Uh not the group that just went there on the um uh forget the name of of the spacecraft that just went to to uh to the moon. Uh but not that one.

[00:07:59]Years ago, there was a astronaut who went uh up into uh into space and he looked down at the earth and it challenged him.

[00:08:09]He said he he said he was a Christian, but he actually began to move towards atheism and became an atheist because he got up there and he was like, "Damn, I'm looking at the earth and like there is no no second or third heaven." Like we're this is we're we're all this is all we know. This is all we have access to. And wherever we thought we would stick a god, there's nowhere to stick him, right? Um you have the JB uh uh telescope and it's it's looking as deep into the past and deep into the you know into space as you you could possibly look right now without technology.

[00:08:50]Where's this third heaven at? What what what's going on here? Is it a physical dimension? Is it a spiritual dimension?

[00:08:56]Like what what's going on? Well, anyway, I'm here today to say heaven is a scam.

[00:09:06]And I don't say that to be mean or to be cruel to anyone. I know for very many people, if you've lost someone close to you, heaven is a comforting idea because they're not gone. I'll get to see them again. I'll get to be with them again.

[00:09:20]I'll get to see their smile again. and they'll make me laugh again and and and I'll I'll I'll find out whether they watched my life when they were up in heaven and did I make them proud or I'm not trying to to to be insensitive but I remember there was somebody close to me who passed and about a week or so within the next week after they passed I was doing something that I as a Christian I shouldn't have been doing. And I remember like thinking, damn, it's one thing to think that that a holy God, allseeing God is watching me creep with this woman that that I, you know, I'm not married to or whatever. It's one thing to do it and know that God's watching, but it's another thing to know that somebody, a fellow Christian who just passed away, if they're up there with God looking down at me now, too, am I going to sit in front of the And at some point, I remember thinking to myself, damn, because it began to matter just a little bit more when it was somebody who I like I walked and spent time with and now I think they're in heaven, but now they're looking down at me and I'm about to go sin. And I remember thinking to myself like two things. one, why did it just get more real now that I think someone that I know who's passed away is looking down at me about the sin? Why did it get more real? But then I just was like, damn, I got these urges, these desires. Am I really going to deny myself just because whoever passed away might be like and what are they going to are they are they going to go to God say oh God did you say like and I just for as a Christian even as a Christian I remember thinking that's just that's silly like I'm I'm going to live my life like I was still a believer at the time but I still was like I'm not going to no like if I wasn't going to change whatever sin I was going to commit before I thought this person that I knew on earth was now in heaven. I was going to sin in front of God. Why would I care more that I'm going to sit in front of God and this person that I know?

[00:11:30]The idea just got silly the more I thought about it. And I was still a Christian at the time.

[00:11:36]How much more now?

[00:11:39]Um but I want to talk about the scam of heaven. Um because it's not just going to see people that you knew that passed away is also hope for yourself for for you. You're like, man, I want my life to continue. And that's not unique to you.

[00:11:56]That's not even unique to human beings.

[00:12:01]From what we can tell, right, every living thing that we know of seems to want to stay that way. I don't know if roaches have thoughts of the afterlife, but I know if you cut the light on and you try to go step on them, they going to [ __ ] run because they want to. It's the things that have when chemistry became biology when when when matter became animated when it came alive that chemistry seems to want to keep on going. And so us telling stories of heaven, it's not really some unique thing like ah see uh what is the verse in Ecclesiastes? God has put eternity in the hearts of men. No, it's a it's a facet of it's a it's a aspect of living things. They tend to want to continue living.

[00:12:51]Well, what does religion do? Religion taps into that inbred innate desire for continued life and it says, "Oh, you want to keep living? Do this.

[00:13:06]Live the way I tell you to live. Go fight in the wars I tell you to fight in. Uh martyr, become a martyr. Um preach this. Uh kill those people. Um give give me your money. Do these things and and I will guarantee you continued life after death. Religion taps into that that most basic instinct of ours that if I'm alive, I want to stay that way.

[00:13:40]And if I can tap into that desire of yours, I can manipulate you to go and fight in the war to not marry the person I don't want you to marry because maybe I want that woman for myself. No, marry somebody else. God told me to tell you that that's not your wife and next thing I know you're dating her. like that.

[00:13:57]That's not a personal experience of mine. I'm just saying these are the kinds of things it it's useful for, right? Um, but it's a horrible scam. It's horrible because one, it's so easily debunkable.

[00:14:14]It's also horrible because e even if you thought about heaven, and just so you know, this is a call-in show. This isn't just me pontificating. If you think that heaven is a not horrible and b not a scam, I welcome you to call in. If you're on uh Instagram, the link to call uh to call in is in my bio. If you're watching on Facebook, the link to call in is going to be underneath the video in Give me a minute. Hold on. Hold on.

[00:14:42]It's coming. It's coming.

[00:14:47]All right. Uh, let me pin it real quick for those in the chat. All right. So, if you're on Instagram, the link to call in is in my bio. If you're on Facebook, the link is, uh, now pinned in the chat, top chat.

[00:15:02]Just scroll up. If you're here on YouTube, uh, scroll all the way up to the top or pay attention because some of the admins will probably be dropping the link to call in, uh, throughout the show. All right. So having said that, um if you think that heaven is a not a horrible idea and b not a scam, I would love for you to call in and tell me why. And I'm going to challenge your ideas. You're welcome to challenge my ideas. All right.

[00:15:36]Um so what do I want to talk about first?

[00:15:40]Do I want to talk? Well, let me let me let me get some feedback from the chat first.

[00:15:44]um because Michael Apple, I want to read something Michael Apple says. Mythos Boy, who's here in the chat. Um says something on my Facebook page that got me thinking. Let me go read on my Facebook page today. I threw this up. I said, "When I realized I had no reason to believe in an afterlife, I determined to make this life my heaven."

[00:16:14]And then I said, "Best decision I ever made." And that's real talk. When it began, I think it was around 2018 or so, 2017, 2018 where I began to contend with the idea like you've been waiting for God. 2014 I started doubting it all after decades of believing it and preaching it and giving my life to it.

[00:16:35]2014 I started doubting it all. 2015, 2016, 2017 I still was trying to give God a chance to show up to save my faith. I stopped reading the Bible because I saw through that but I was like ah but no, I mean it's got to be real, right? And so for three years, I gave God just time to show up in my life. And every coincidental thing that happened, I was like, "Oo, that's God."

[00:16:59]Or or maybe that's God. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Around 2018, it kicked in and I was like, "It don't look good for Yahweh. It don't look good for the for my faith." And I allowed myself to to to pull that thread and I said, "Man, so heaven, like that's that's probably not like I had issues with Genesis. I had issues with other stuff, but at some point I I let I let I let it go and I said, man, so man, that means heaven, too. Like I I may have to rethink afterlife."

[00:17:34]And once I began to rethink afterlife, I said, "Damn." So then if there's no heaven, whatever heaven I'm going, because I was willing to suffer whatever in this life, physical ailments and things that I was going through, um, all kinds of things I was willing to suffer in this life. When I realized, oh, I can't look forward to a heaven, I said to damn, whatever heaven I'm going to get, I better get it now. Like I was willing to suffer hell on earth thinking that there was a heaven waiting for me.

[00:18:06]I said, "Nope, I'm not." From this point forward, I'm not putting up with [ __ ] that I don't have to. I began to think about strategizing ways to like I said, so okay, if this is going to be my my only heaven, I know the believer is saying, "Yeah, you're right, Brady. This is as close to heaven you're going to hit because you're not going to be in the real heaven." We'll come to that in a minute. I don't think there's any real heaven. But when I said, "Okay, if there's not, I got to find my heaven here." Several things. I said, "Okay, I gotta strateg I'm going to strategize a way to make it so that this becomes my heaven. Um, I don't want to work." Like, I don't want to spend another 40 years of my life working if I don't have to. I got I got to find a way to make this the kind of life I actually want it to be because I can't count on somebody up there to do it for me anymore. I can't count on mansions in heaven or, you know, being with God, absent from the bodies, present with the Lord. I can't count on any of that. I got to get it where I live, right here, right now.

[00:19:05]Strategizing ways to get get myself out of regular work. Strategizing ways to uh even health issues. I'm like, yo, stop waiting for heaven for your relief. Find your relief here and now. So, I said all that to say, I posted this on Facebook.

[00:19:22]Um, when I realized I had no reason to believe in an afterlife, I determined to make this life my heaven. Michael Apple said, "The notion of perpetual life with no escape has always horrified me."

[00:19:40]Think about that. Think about that. Um, so before I dive into to Michael Apple's comment, and if you're free, Mike, if you if you have any time and you want to call in and maybe we can talk about this for for a minute, I would love to. But if not, I'm going to pontificate on this idea because I think it's a powerful idea. But chat, I would love to hear from you. If you're a deconverted person, you were a Christian, you were at one time looking forward to heaven, and now you no longer believe.

[00:20:09]Do you do you still long for not just longevity, but eternality? Do you long for everlasting life? Or have you made peace with the idea that this is it or this may be it? we don't have any reason to think that there's more and so you're good with it. Do you still long for maybe you're not thinking that Jesus is going to be a ticket there, but maybe you still hope there's something. So, I'd love to hear from you chat if you're deconverted.

[00:20:41]um your view on heaven or or continued existence.

[00:20:50]Are you still clamoring for it or are you pretty much cool like I can't wait for this thing to end? Like I like because it's not going to be like here's the thing I do want to say. It's not like okay if there's no heaven then you just go rest. Like you're not resting like if if this life is it.

[00:21:10]So, I'm not saying if there's no heaven, this light, then this is it. Because maybe there's not a heaven. Maybe there's some other kind of continued renewal existence. Who knows? So, it's not like heaven is the only option, right? There could be reincarnation. Uh there could be um I was watching something yesterday and they they talked about um like what if your consciousness is able to be like sort of broadcasted to another frequency or something like do you long for continued existence or when you have your 80 90 100 years here you're like peace was this was a good show and I'm I'm good I'm out. Let me see what y'all are saying in the chat.

[00:22:02]And I'm sure I got some Christians here, too. So, you're welcome. Trying to think what kind of question would I ask the Christian?

[00:22:08]Um, I don't even know what to ask you guys yet, but I do want the Christians, the believers to call in if you disagree that heaven is a horrible idea or a sham. All right, so Chris Moore, I think I talked to Chris Moore on the channel.

[00:22:22]I think he he was on. Let me see what Chris Moore is saying. Chris says technically you can't separate the promise of heaven without the threats of hell or I guess from the threats of hell because long term heaven by itself seems like another version of hell with a nice polished job. Okay, Chris Moore is an atheist. All right, sorry about that. Um, so that's what I was going to get into with Michael Apple's comment. So, we'll come back to your comment in a second because you're you're you're you're sort of the other side of the coin.

[00:23:01]Same token though that Michael Apple is talking about.

[00:23:05]All right. So, rather than me pontificating on Michael Apple's uh comment, let's bring him into the studio and hopefully there's no technical issues. Welcome to Icapad. What's up, sir?

[00:23:21]You're in the studio. Can you hear me?

[00:23:28]Uh >> oh.

[00:23:29]>> Can you hear me?

[00:23:30]>> Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

[00:23:33]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:35]>> And there's no delay. What's happening, friend?

[00:23:38]>> Um, it's a busy Monday, but uh I got enough time.

[00:23:44]So, you said the idea of endless life has always horrified you. Can you can you say more about that?

[00:23:53]>> I'm getting a I'm getting a duplicate.

[00:23:55]So, I got to close something down.

[00:23:57]>> Yeah, if you got if you're watching on YouTube, you can close YouTube while you're in the studio.

[00:24:03]>> Yeah, >> let me close YouTube.

[00:24:07]>> Yep.

[00:24:10]If you're a believer, a theist out there, and you're getting yourself ready, just you can call in and you'll you'll be next in the queue.

[00:24:16]>> Okay. So, down to >> one, two, can you hear me? Can you hear me? Is there any delay? Any echo?

[00:24:23]>> I can hear you.

[00:24:24]>> Okay. So, you said the notion of perpetual life with no escape. So, can you just what do you mean there? Talk to us.

[00:24:33]>> Okay. Human beings in our consciousness, we are born. We're biological, right?

[00:24:39]You can say, well, we're not. We're something more than just bi biology. We have some sort of spiritual existence that exists beyond us. But my comment to that would be um if you actually watch human behavior over the time of a given life, you're going to notice massive changes to um not only other your personality, but to other people's personality. And you and the bi and biology is a harsh mistress.

[00:25:08]>> You may you start young, you make it into your middle years, you might make it with some health uh as you get older, but one of these days the clock's going to you know catch up to you.

[00:25:18]>> And um you know there you don't have any guarantees whether your health's going to last, your memory is going to last or anything is going to last. So we come up with these fantasies about life being you know perpetual but we have no experience of that at all. It's just our imaginations.

[00:25:35]>> And I just would like to think that our imaginations could fail. And if they did fail, but you had no way out of it.

[00:25:45]>> You don't need to invent hell.

[00:25:48]>> Hell would basically come from your inability of your, you know, poor of your untrained mind to deal with the fact that you don't have an ant. You can't rest. You can't sleep. You are perpetual. We are not perpetual beings.

[00:26:03]We don't even know what the word actually would mean in a context of human behavior. We can invent.

[00:26:09]>> So, so hold on, Mike. Let me stop you real quick because >> I hear you. But the Christian would say, if you're going to talk about heaven and critique it, you at least have to critique our presentation of it, which is you're not going to mentally decline.

[00:26:26]You're not going to have achy knees, you're not going to, Matter of fact, I I'll read what I read at the top. Let's go back to um Revelation 21.

[00:26:34]>> Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth.

[00:26:35]>> New you.

[00:26:36]>> Yeah.

[00:26:37]>> First ones passed away. And at the end of that chapter four, I mean verse four, it says he will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death will not exist anymore and mourning or crying or pain the former things have ceased to exist.

[00:26:50]So if you could live perpetually in that kind of place, would that be would that remove the horror for you?

[00:27:02]Okay. You broke up just a little bit the at the what you were saying.

[00:27:08]>> Can you hear me now?

[00:27:10]>> I can hear you now.

[00:27:12]>> Okay.

[00:27:12]>> Um, what I got out of that was if if every tear could be taken from your eye, if you could basically be granted some sort of perfect existence, >> right?

[00:27:23]>> Yeah. Would that still horrify you living forever that way?

[00:27:35]How's your connection now? Am I roboting? What's going on?

[00:27:39]>> No, you're good. Am I?

[00:27:42]Oh, your connection. Ah, I had a feeling it was him when he was saying that I was I broke up cuz I saw him get a little glitchy.

[00:27:51]Damn.

[00:27:55]Hopefully he'll he'll pop back in as the internet works. Nope. He's off. He's off the screen. No.

[00:28:01]No way. Help us out.

[00:28:05]Hopefully we'll get Michael Apple back.

[00:28:06]Um, but let me see what some of you all were saying. Did you Did you guys answer in the chat?

[00:28:12]Uh, okay. So, Michael Apple is back.

[00:28:14]Give me one second. Mike, I'll pick you back up in a second.

[00:28:24]Barbakcoa, hope I'm saying that right, says, "I do hope for immortality.

[00:28:30]There is freedom." I do hope for immortality. There is freedom. But not if we're praising some superior being.

[00:28:38]All right, I'm going to come back to that for sure. All right, come on back in, Mike. What's good?

[00:28:46]Say something.

[00:28:50]Every time Mike calls, it's always technical.

[00:28:56]Mike, you're moving. Okay, now are you able to say anything?

[00:29:03]I hear you. I feel you.

[00:29:07]Ah, throw it in the chat, bro. Throw it in the chat until we get it worked out.

[00:29:13]Um, so, okay. So, Barbco, and forgive me if I'm saying the name wrong. Um, says, "I do hope for immortality."

[00:29:25]I think you were trying to say if there is freedom, because there's no if there, but I think what you're saying is, "I do hope for immortality if there is freedom, but not if we're if we're praising some superior being." All right, I'm gonna try this one more time.

[00:29:38]Mike is Mike is backstage. Let's see what what we got. You good? You're you're in the studio.

[00:29:45]>> Yeah, I'm just back. God damn it.

[00:29:47]>> Okay, let's try to get it in real quick.

[00:29:49]So, the question was painless, tearless, mournless life. Would that still horrify you if it was endless in that pred in that kind of condition?

[00:30:03]>> Okay.

[00:30:05]My quick answer would be I don't know what that means.

[00:30:09]I can easily imagine that something that um looks supposed to look like me things, but I wouldn't know where to begin. Um are we still having a really bad >> be interested in finding out? And that's the religious pitch, right? You don't have to know what it would mean, but would you be interested in finding out and going to such a place where you would he he look you look frozen. Are you still there, Mike?

[00:30:35]Aha.

[00:30:38]Okay, I'm I'm gonna kick Mike from the studio for now.

[00:30:41]>> I'm really sorry. I'm having it's bad connection. I can't really >> and I look forward to talking with you.

[00:30:46]Get it worked out.

[00:30:47]>> Okay.

[00:30:49]Yeah, you froze up again. So, I look forward to kicking it with you when we can get it worked out for sure. I'm gonna bring in uh Kika. Kika is back. I haven't talked to Kika in a couple weeks. And let me just check. Did I say your name right this time?

[00:31:03]>> Yeah, it was really close. Kika, I think you said I think you did say it right.

[00:31:07]Kika.

[00:31:08]>> Kika. Okay.

[00:31:11]>> Kik for short.

[00:31:13]>> You are a You are a theist of sorts, right?

[00:31:19]>> No, no, no. Very, very much theist. Very much Christian. I just deconstruct every like five to 10 years.

[00:31:25]>> All right. Like I said, forgive me because with people >> I have these conversations with so many people and I always forget who's who's where. You're the Christian who deconverts every couple of years. Never.

[00:31:36]Never. Wait, you said deconstructs or deconverts every couple years?

[00:31:39]Deconstructs, right?

[00:31:40]>> No, not deconverts. Deconstructs. Yeah.

[00:31:42]I think you always have to >> deconstructs every couple years.

[00:31:44]>> Yeah.

[00:31:45]>> But you've never decon converted and then reconverted.

[00:31:48]>> Never. Never. Like in in my imagination, maybe for like 30 30 seconds at a time.

[00:31:53]Maybe I do it for like one minute just to see what it feels like to be an atheist and then I just run back. I'm like, that's crazy. How can you not go?

[00:32:00]>> Hey, guess what? I did that. I did that last week to I did that as a believer. I did that to see what it would be like to be a believer.

[00:32:07]>> I was >> It was wonderful. It was wonderful. Um it didn't last long cuz I couldn't, you know, like when you watch like the Avengers or something. I'm frozen in a very horrible position. Hold on for a second. I got to wait till I unfreeze.

[00:32:22]Um you ever like watch the Avengers or something and then you realize at some point that >> you had suspended your disbelief and then your disbelief kicked in >> and you're like, "Oh shoot, it's ruining it." And you got to get back to suspending your disbelief.

[00:32:34]>> Yeah, I was training that.

[00:32:37]>> Okay. So, I suspended my disbelief for like I think I got to like two minutes, maybe. No, like a minute and a half.

[00:32:44]>> Like, try to believe again. But here's what I realized. I said, "Yo, that's it was such an intoxicating feeling to think I've got a friend in the sky who's all powerful, who who wants the best for me, who loves me, and who's going to work everything out for my It was intoxicating." But then I just was like, "Fuck are you talking like this is this is nonsense." Like I couldn't sustain it. I couldn't sustain. It felt I said, "Damn." And then and here's what happened. And I'm going give you the flow in a second, but I said that's why it's so hard to to talk to people about the non-reality of Christianity because that's such an intoxicating idea. No one could have come to me when I was in that state of mind and talked me out of it. I had to get there on my own.

[00:33:29]>> Yeah.

[00:33:29]>> And so it just dawned on me just how serious that thing really is. But anyway, >> that's fascinating.

[00:33:37]>> Yeah. I I'm really I really would love to see you reconstruct even if it's just like as an exercise reconstruct a religion or spirituality or reconstruct your own theism. I just would like to kind of see what that is. You know, probably because I'm a theism fan. I'm not going to park. Probably because I'm a theism fan. You know what I mean? Like and I'm always trying to figure out what's like accurate, what's true, >> even though I hold on to my Christianity, my relationship with God through Jesus. I'm always like I've been on a deconstruction bender. I think I'm going on a little bit too long. I go, you know, you know, listening to what's his name? Uh Mlen >> and then uh checking you out consistently >> and just really digging into it. And usually I don't go this long, but I'm like, "Okay, >> we need to get the brand."

[00:34:29]>> How long has this vendor been?

[00:34:31]>> I don't know. It's like it's it kind of intensifies. I would say like >> four months, five months.

[00:34:36]>> Okay.

[00:34:37]>> It's like, >> okay.

[00:34:38]>> Like, you know, usually like hell, hell is like, you know, I'm not a big fan of hell.

[00:34:43]>> Um, >> but I also have to listen to uh Christian people too to balance it out because I don't want to like be >> Yeah. So, if you didn't balance it out, like if you're like you're like like you're like a bartender at a bar making yourself a nice drink and you're you you you got all these deconstruction ideas in your glass, but you know you got to put something in there because it would be too strong if you didn't put some Christian content in that glass. So, it's almost like I guess my question would be yes, what would happen if you didn't put Christian content in the in the mixed drink that you're making? What would happen?

[00:35:25]Oh no. Technical issues. You're you're you're >> breaking up real you're breaking up real bad.

[00:35:39]>> Hey. Yeah. You sound like Charlie Brown's teacher right now.

[00:35:46]might have.

[00:35:50]>> Ah man, I was I was warming up some real good questions for you.

[00:35:55]>> Hey, try to call back, bro.

[00:36:00]>> Yeah, try to call back. I'm gonna get Chris Moore in here in the meantime.

[00:36:06]>> All right. Uh, hey, my sister's in the chat. She says, "Peace, fam." And then she said, um, if God is real, why do people have to be told about him to believe in him?

[00:36:26]There's so many fundamental questions that you can ask. Um, but I'm going to I'll come back to that in a in a sec. Um, Chris, if you can hold on one second, Chris, let me try to finish with Kikila real quick.

[00:36:44]One, two. Give me a mic check real quick.

[00:36:46]>> Check. Check. Check. Mic check. One, two.

[00:36:48]>> Okay. So, in case you're about to the the the tech is about to bug out again, let's try to get this in real quick. Um, I asked you a minute ago, if you didn't mix the Christian content into the the mixed drink that you're making, what do you think would happen?

[00:37:02]>> I don't know, man. It's kind of dark.

[00:37:04]Like, I literally feel like I can't leave Jesus, and I wouldn't want to, but >> I don't know. It's I start getting a bad feeling. I don't know if it's just my faith >> like not my religion type faith but like faith like active faith in God start getting weaker >> and you start getting into that spiritual funk maybe just like if you eat too much junk food or something like that maybe that happens you know but then also you go back and listen to inspiring philosophy or somebody like that just like or an apologist like I don't like y'all got to come better than that like I can't I can't do it you know >> so you are looking forward to heaven Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:37:42]Absolutely.

[00:37:43]>> What's the What's the If you had to narrow it down, what's the best thing about heaven going to be for you?

[00:37:48]>> I mean, obviously being with God and just like being I guess having a less stressful existence, but my my version of heaven is just not like the necessarily the uh the stereotypical heaven. Like I think that's one aspect of it, >> but you know, we might come back down. I think also there's a simulation aspect of it probably. I feel like you can maybe relive some of the events that you've had in your life. And I feel like it's just more complicated. Yeah, I feel like it's more complicated.

[00:38:16]>> So, your version of heaven, you're adding things in that the Bible doesn't the Bible is probably not giving you a convincing enough picture of heaven because the Bible doesn't really give you the idea that you're going to be able to relive certain things or like you're there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth. The old ones are going to pass away. God's going to be here with people. He's going to be what sunlight is now. God's just going to be here. But why is that not enough for you? Why would you want to go back and relive other things? Why not just be there with God chilling?

[00:38:45]>> I don't know. You know, I've sometimes I pop in some newagy type things too. You know what I mean? So, so I would say being with God is enough, but you want to see your relatives too. You know what I mean? Like my kids passed away.

[00:39:00]>> Take this. I I've never thought this thought before, but let's let's stick with what you just said. If the most important and um the best thing about heaven is being there with God, do you think heaven would be as enticing to you if that's all it was? New heaven, new earth, and just you and God forever.

[00:39:24]>> I mean, probably like not with my like mind now.

[00:39:28]I don't want to say fleshless mind. That sounds too too Christian. But you know what I mean? Not with my like human mind now.

[00:39:33]>> But like it's like if you look at a u somebody that meditates, you know, the idea of not having any thoughts doesn't sound peaceful until you try it and then it sounds amazing. So >> being with God, like being in like a really good worship session forever would feel great. You know what I mean?

[00:39:49]>> But but endless worships, endless worship like you like he he'll give you the ability to not even have to take breaths. You'll just I mean just endlessly holy, holy, holy. But he's infinitely holy. So you can't even say enough holies. What? Three holies. You have to just keep on giving him the praise. But he's worthy of it. Be doing that forever.

[00:40:12]>> Well, we know that's not what it is.

[00:40:14]It's not even like that in the Bible.

[00:40:15]All kind of stuff.

[00:40:18]>> I'm just saying, would that be cool for you though? He He's that good and he's that worthy and you're going to be telling him that forever. Would that be okay with you? I mean, it's better than the other thing, you know what I mean? I guess. Or, you know, like I don't, like I say, I don't believe in like eternal suffering for everybody forever. That's not the believer. Just because the Bible doesn't even really believe in that, right? Like Brian McLaren.

[00:40:40]>> No, it does. It it it Well, no, there's some verses in the Bible that do talk about people being tormented forever.

[00:40:46]The smoke of their tormented rises forever.

[00:40:49]>> Of angels, but like the people are burnt up. You know what I mean?

[00:40:53]No, it no is that verse is talking about people. It's talking about the liars, the uh people who p practice witchcraft, the this, that, and the third, the cowardly. They're going to be tortured.

[00:41:02]They're going to be um does it say um I don't think it uses the word torture, but it does say they're going to be in the presence of the lamb suffering and the smoke of their torment rises forever.

[00:41:14]>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know what you're talking about. Uh I have to I'd have to go back and look at it. So like Ryan Mlennon says in the Bible you can find eternal torment but you can also find destruction. You can also find sh in the Old Testament. So it's like a bunch of different authors trying to figure out you know what it is. And it's not like a one thing like Hannah Jesus talked about uh uh because you didn't feed the leaf of these.

[00:41:38]>> Uh uh that's when you and then he describes the angels throwing the people into on a barbecue. Um, >> strangely enough, this is kind of a a side note. When Jesus explicitly talks about like people getting thrown into the barbecue, you know, it's always because like the rich man and Lazarus, right? What why did the rich man go to the bad place and Lazarus go to the good place, you know? And it's it's not because of like religion per se. It's because of uh what he practiced. He he ignored the poor guy, right?

[00:42:13]I mean, >> in Jesus story. In Jesus story.

[00:42:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

[00:42:18]>> And then if you look at the sheep and the goats thing, why did why did the angels throw the people on a barbecue in that one?

[00:42:27]>> Well, yeah. And depending on which gospel you're reading, Jesus puts people in hell for all kinds of reasons.

[00:42:31]Sometimes they didn't deal properly with the poor. Sometimes he called them workers of iniquity. uh you know there's different kind of reasons why he says people are going to be where God prepared this place for the ang for for Satan and his angels but now people are going to be there too um hold I'm trying to find this verse for you real quick because I do see what you think about this all right so Revelation 14 and it says a third angel followed the first two declaring with a loud If anyone worships the beast and his image and takes the mark on his forehead and his hand, that person will also drink of the wine of God's anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath. And he will be tortured with fire in fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the lamb.

[00:43:27]And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever. And those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day and night along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.

[00:43:40]>> So this is not annihilation. This is an ongoing endless day and night.

[00:43:47]>> No reprieve.

[00:43:48]>> Classic hell. Hell.

[00:43:50]>> Yeah. Exactly. Um so you're going to be in heaven forever.

[00:43:55]>> Yeah. with a god who is like who's getting his jollies by torturing people forever at the same time that he's entertaining you.

[00:44:03]>> Yeah. I think I I don't I think the guy was just kind of like like you said writing Avengers. I mean that's what they I mean you know that version of apocalyptic literature. It's like >> it's a com It's like a comic book but it's made to inspire like >> Yeah.

[00:44:17]>> Although some of that stuff is kind of real as a conspiracy theorist. Like you see the stuff that they showed me in like when I was going to Jimmy Swagger school, they show those old Tribulation movies >> which are horrifying and you're like wait, they really are trying to like put microchips in people now.

[00:44:33]So So I I leave open I leave room open for that stuff. But ultimately I think it's a metaphor for the Roman Empire, you know.

[00:44:41]>> Gotcha. Gotcha.

[00:44:42]>> And then metaphysically I think it's something that takes place over and over again. Just like uh when you get a cold, you got certain symptoms that come. I think these symptoms arise in humanity and can express themselves in Antichrist like Hitler or like whoever the bad man is that you wanted to be.

[00:44:58]>> Okay. So, you you don't have hell classic in your mind. You don't even have um hell 2.0 in your mind. You've got these kind of matrixy ideas of of I'm sorry, not hell. Um heaven. Even your heaven is not the classic heaven.

[00:45:11]Your heaven is sort of this re-imagined.

[00:45:14]You're kind of bringing into it all the things that we know now and making your heaven a little bit better than the one that's in the Bible.

[00:45:20]>> I wouldn't say better. It's just like I feel like there's going to be >> there's infinite playgrounds. So, if you're like a meditator and you want to be just feel like you're, you know, in a room full of energy and peace, you'll have that.

[00:45:36]>> If you want to be worshiping all the time, you'll have that. If you want to create a world, you know, we really ultimately don't know. We just but we do have uh uh past life regression uh not past life regressions uh afterlife uh scenarios with people experiencing different things and um >> you talking about you talking about near-death experiences >> near-death indies yeah near-death experiences >> well see even near-death experiences are not afterlife experiences they haven't like if you come back then you don't that's not afterlife that's just some some intermediate thing that you and we don't know if that's just your brain because you're not really dead and so your brain is just giving you it's filling in the gap of like that's what our brains do. Our brains fill in the gaps of information we don't have.

[00:46:17]>> So if you're unconscious >> and you're so far from being conscious, your brain is probably just filling in the blanks of okay then what could be going on and what have you ever heard?

[00:46:27]You heard about a light, you heard about a god, you heard about so you >> NDEs could be those. So I don't know if I would put that in the category of afterlife experiences. Last question because I got two people in the queue waiting. I want to know from you >> for sure. What reason other than wanting it to be true, what reason do you have to believe that there is a heaven?

[00:46:49]>> Uh, I think I believe there's a heaven because I believe there's a God and I believe I can feel his presence and I believe I can I feel it somewhat consistently and uh I feel like I can feel a I experience uh enough synchronicities in life. I've seen enough miraculous things and just the the consistency of my inner world and my outer world. The consistency of feeling God talk to you, answer things, a somewhat consistent conscience. Um, >> so you use the word consistent several times.

[00:47:24]>> Yeah.

[00:47:24]>> What do you do with the inconsistencies of all the different people that say, "I feel God, too, but they got a different God than you." Well, I feel connected too, but they they don't they got a different What about the inconsistencies in all the people who would say the things that you're saying, but about a but about a different uh iteration or version of God in the afterlife? Does that inconsistency bother you at all to make you say maybe this is just Kika just trying to trying to make the most of his existence? Like like last thing I'll say, I told you last week, I I did this thought experiment where I tried to believe in God again.

[00:47:58]>> Yeah.

[00:47:58]>> And I got real hopeful. I got real like, yo, somebody up there is looking out for and it it gave me a whole different perspective on life.

[00:48:06]>> I don't think any of it was real, but it made me more hopeful.

[00:48:10]>> But so the question was >> the question is, did I feel God? Because if if that's if that's what it means to feel God, >> then that's not any that's that doesn't mean God is real. That just means I gave myself a hope >> and I lived in that hope for a time.

[00:48:26]>> So, how do you know that you're feeling God and not just feeling hope? I mean, but you know, as a Christian, um, you know what everybody in your comments will say? The good people and the people that try to give you hell, they all secretly want you to be like, you know what I mean? Want you to come back. So, they would say, you know, in that moment, you just, you still technically from a certain evangelical perspective would have the Holy Spirit. So, you just reactivated it. You know, it's not like I mean, you're still kind of like a Christian, right? You're trying to help everybody.

[00:48:56]>> I turned it off. turned it back off.

[00:48:59]>> Yeah, exactly. That's why it felt great.

[00:49:03]I mean, but God is like he's universal and he's personal. I don't think other religions are necessarily >> like before Jesus came and before Abraham happened like God was still interacting with people, you know.

[00:49:17]>> So, do I am I >> Abrahamic religions don't have a corner on the market of God and heaven?

[00:49:24]>> I can't say that they do. I can't say I guess as a Christian you could I would say Jesus is the son of God. He's a pre-existing being that came down. You know what I mean?

[00:49:35]>> But you know I'm not going to completely discount everything everybody else says.

[00:49:39]I'm not going to pledge allegiance to to their particular faith. But you know, >> why not though? If there's no one road, if there's no one right road, why not pledge allegiance to some other in the same way that I tapped into that thing I tapped in last week and I got all hopeful.

[00:49:55]>> What if I can get that same feeling from tapping into somebody else's belief and just believing that the same way I did the Christian thing?

[00:50:01]>> If if you can feel the Holy Spirit through another set of beliefs and it's authentic, then you know, so be it.

[00:50:07]>> I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit.

[00:50:08]I just got hopeful. Like if you told me like, >> "Yo, if you said, Brady, I just won $10 million and I'm giving you two million of that money." I would get really hopeful and I would live in life what you just told me.

[00:50:20]>> Yeah.

[00:50:20]>> And I think that feeling would be comparable to what I felt last week when I thought, >> "Oh, let's try to believe in God again."

[00:50:25]It's just a it's my internal >> um state reacting to this this thing I'm telling this narrative that I'm telling myself. I don't think that's the Holy Spirit. I think that's just >> Well, go ahead. I think if you did it for a week, you start seeing miracles happen on the outside. Miracles is a strong word. You start seeing things change on the outside. Even if you don't tell anybody, people are going to call you.

[00:50:48]>> All kind of stuff will happen. It doesn't necessarily mean that our version of religion is right. It could be a simulation, but you will see proof to you. Proof is a strong word.

[00:50:58]You'll start seeing evidence that the spiritual state inside of you is doing something on the outside. Even if you do it as an experiment, I think >> but see here's the thing. Here's I know too much for that to work on me though because even if I started seeing things sort of sinking up and working out all I would do is all I would do is I would say okay so these are the coincidences like those kind of coincidences still happen now. I just don't attribute them to anything spiritual.

[00:51:25]>> So it's not like all of a sudden that's going to start happening. Those kind of serendipitous things still happen in my life today. I just know like, oh, coincidences happen in life.

[00:51:35]>> But like, don't you have a sneaky suspicion that if you really ask God to show up, something crazy might happen?

[00:51:41]Like, even as a uh agnostic atheist, is that accurate or close enough? Um, >> close enough.

[00:51:49]>> Close enough. Even as a said, I say agnostic. I don't know. I don't I don't want to, you know, >> don't you have a sneaking suspicion that something might happen that's a little bit dramatic, >> you know, just you just you don't think so?

[00:52:02]>> No.

[00:52:03]>> Only if I suspend my only if I suspend my disbelief. But like I said, I do that with Marvel movies and I I can hard Christianity ruined Marvel movies for I was a big Marvel fan. But then after I decon converted and just saw how easy it is to make myth, the next time I tried to go watch Avatar or tried to watch anything, I was I can't do it. I can't suspend my disbelief because I feel like a >> I don't even want to say what I feel like. I I couldn't do it anymore.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah. Well, I do know you're watch >> Yeah. I mean, you're sincere as fanatic.

[00:52:35]You're very sincere. So right now you're just doing the same thing of telling the most accurate version of your experience, you know, which if you ever do discover uh spirituality or theism or some form of Christianity or whatever you evolve into, you know, or even some kind of spiritual secularism or atheism or whatever stardust thing, you know, Neil Gy, you know what I mean?

[00:52:58]>> It'll you're going to be authentic with it. So, you know, >> well, this is the last thing I'm going to say to you real quick. So, I don't know if you know in the atheist community, there is a a very fresh and vibrant ongoing debate right now between Matt Dillah Hunty and Brit from nononsense spirituality. And the question on the floor is, >> do atheists need the term spirituality if we don't mean it in the woowoo magic mystical kind of way? But Brit has this thing called nononsense spirituality where she's talking to people about dealing with, like you said a minute ago, your inner world and how to relate to the external world. And so even in the atheist community, people are talking about, wait, are you saying spirituality, but really what you mean is psychology.

[00:53:40]>> Yeah. And so I I I would I would love for you to kind of peer into some of those discussions just to see, damn, are are these atheists, even as they struggle with what to call it, are they doing a better job at talking about the very thing that religion has been trying to talk about for thousands of years, but adding a bunch of mystical stuff into it?

[00:53:58]>> I watched that episode, or at least a good chunk of it, um, and I was thought it was really good. And I and I do think um I I think atheists are good at and uh secularly humanists are good at kind of describing things, you know what I mean?

[00:54:11]And kind of like u uh uh uh I don't want to say demystifying.

[00:54:16]>> I say word.

[00:54:18]>> Yeah. But demystifying too, you know, as y'all discover.

[00:54:22]>> I feel like they're going to end up in the same place.

[00:54:25]>> Yeah. They're like >> I don't >> I think they're going to become the discussion. The the discussion was The discussion was Matt Dillante is saying to Brit that she was sort of remstifying things that we've been on a mission to demystify. And so maybe you do find some people who do rem uh do remystify, >> but I think people like me are trying to not go that route.

[00:54:48]>> But either way, >> yeah, go ahead. Last comment.

[00:54:51]>> I know I know you got the other guest, but I kind of feel like even with you uh I think you were talking about uh experimenting with um uh I don't know DMT or whatever talking about mushrooms.

[00:55:01]Um yeah, just no. Um cannabis.

[00:55:04]>> Okay. Just cannabis. But like having spiritual experiences and I'm like I kind of think I I think the a lot of the aes are going to come full circle and just going to have probably better language than maybe somebody that lived 4,000 years ago, more updated language, >> you know, and people are going to start seeing entities. They're going to start seeing Jesus. Maybe not or whatever.

[00:55:24]Maybe they'll see energy in the universe. They're going to realize, hey, look, this is a beautiful experience.

[00:55:29]The one thing about Jesus though that I like about Jesus, he comes for you. He's a very active God, right? The other be >> out of this thing for 11, 12 years now.

[00:55:40]He ain't come for me yet. So, >> six years, man. 2020. I watched the video. It's epic.

[00:55:47]>> 2014 is when I 2014 is when it began.

[00:55:49]>> Yeah.

[00:55:50]>> The video came out in 2021 because I was finally ready to tell other people where I was at.

[00:55:55]>> I've been here for about 12 years.

[00:55:57]>> Whoa. For real, man. Well, like I said, the first three, like from 2014 to 2017, I was trying to give God a chance to save my faith. After 2017, I pretty much knew it was a wrap. I just didn't know how long it was going to be.

[00:56:10]>> So, so like, would you give it like a 1%? Like, what's the percent chance that uh a theistic version of God might be somewhat real, you know, or something close to it?

[00:56:21]>> A theistic version of God. I mean, I don't think there's any other version of God, >> but you know what I mean. Like it could be >> it could be an alien teenager on a laptop going, you know, drinking Mountain Dew, you know.

[00:56:32]>> Oh, so you mean like the percentage that God is the reason is the the cause for our existence?

[00:56:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. Any kind of energy force, spiritual, mystical energy force that's conscious.

[00:56:44]>> I give it a non% chance.

[00:56:48]>> I don't know if that's like >> 0.000089 or something like that. That's that's sort of where I'm at with it >> cuz there's so much we don't know.

[00:56:55]There's so much we don't know.

[00:56:56]>> Yeah.

[00:56:57]>> You know, but I know you're like a scholar and you're like stacking evidence and facts and things like that, but like sometimes intuition is powerful.

[00:57:04]>> I go off of evidence and I go off of evidence, experience, and intuition, but my intuition is an informed intuition.

[00:57:10]And I think if you have an informed intuition, I don't know if you get to God.

[00:57:14]>> I feel like Jesus might literally appear to you too. You know what I mean? Like he could do that.

[00:57:18]>> Well, heard stories. I told you I have a dream of Jesus that if any believer of any religion ever comes to me and tells me here's what Jesus said to you in that dream I will believe their rel I will believe their God. So you can pray you can ask Jesus >> I had a dream of Jesus back when I was like 19 or 20 years old >> and he came and he said something and it it it meant so much to me. It changed my life. If you can come to me and tell me what did Jesus look like in this dream and what did he say to me I will believe your God.

[00:57:46]>> Somebody in the comments will though.

[00:57:47]They got like a lot of prophets and stuff. I mean, so >> people have been trying for the last year.

[00:57:52]>> Yeah.

[00:57:52]>> And people have people have actually hit me up. People have flown to Philadelphia from Florida to come and sit with me and tell me, "Here's what God said to you."

[00:57:59]>> Wow.

[00:58:00]>> Wrong.

[00:58:01]>> Wrong as hell.

[00:58:03]>> Yeah, that's that's somebody should be able to pull that off if they're real, right? Like, you know, >> let me go let me talk these other calls.

[00:58:11]I appreciate you calling in, bro. All right. My pleasure, man. Thank you for having me.

[00:58:15]>> All right. Till next. Yeah. Peace. Bye.

[00:58:20]Chris Moore, welcome to Icapa. Thank you for waiting so long. What's happening, my friend?

[00:58:27]>> I'm doing okay. Uh yeah, but um uh just kind of like to uh go back to the prompt. uh one of the one of the uh most uh elaborate takedowns of basically heaven not being the big deal as it is um is from um Brandon from Mind Shift.

[00:58:52]>> So, okay.

[00:58:53]>> Yeah, he did a he did a video.

[00:58:55]>> Can you give us a synopsis of what he said? And for those who who hold on real quick for those who can't watch the screen right now, Chris is an atheist.

[00:59:02]And correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, didn't you say that you are actually anti-theist? Right.

[00:59:07]>> Yes. I'm an anti-theist, but that's >> okay. Can you give us a quick synopsis of what mind shift was saying about uh heaven being a sham?

[00:59:16]>> Well, it's basically this the reason of being trapped there like like he kind of gives about seven reasons. Uh one of them is basically uh okay, I'm here. Can I opt out at some point or do I like do I have to like worship like all my time there? Um and also there's the um in well basically the immortality uh type of thing too and um >> those type of things I think. But anyway, it's just that it's one of his uh most uh prominent videos and uh you guys can check it out. Um, but >> and is it Well, go ahead. I was going to ask you a question, but I want to know.

[01:00:01]So, what what made you want to call in?

[01:00:03]Talk to us.

[01:00:04]>> Um, basically, uh, well, for me, it's just that, uh, it's just the fact that there's so much thing you could cram into a, um, you know, 200 character like comment. And also is that >> due to the fact that I have uh due to the fact that I have a permanent disability cerebal paly um basically verbal and communication is a little bit better for me. So I guess okay, >> but I do understand that this program that you host is for theists and not for theists because otherwise you're just kind of preaching to the choir over here and Yes.

[01:00:47]>> No, but I still appreciate you calling in and and just giving us that that uh nudge to go check out Mind Shift because somebody else in the comments say, "Yeah, that was a great video from Mind Shift." So appreciate that. But there's about uh there's uh um sorry well there's two things that I wanted to to say and it comes from my comment that I have basically previously uh do it is that essentially you cannot divorce uh heaven uh without hell and basically because essentially in the long term heaven looks like another version of of hell and it's um and it's just that basically you have to have the carrot and the stick in terms of theology.

[01:01:32]>> And the second thing is that as humans we can only essentially conceptualize at least one 100 years of a lifespan.

[01:01:43]And the fact is is that you cannot guarantee that the person that you'll be today what you'll be there tomorrow and another you know another x amount of time and that for me being um the fact is that I know that I'm kind or well having positive attributes of what is is a like a role model says it citizen I hope Um.

[01:02:13]>> Mhm.

[01:02:13]>> It's just it's like fast forward this to 2,000 years or even an eon >> and I'm not like I'm not sure that I can be the same person that'll exist like in the in the quotequote future if I was an immortal.

[01:02:35]And so yeah.

[01:02:37]>> Yeah. I hear you. And and I want to be fair to the Christian because and and maybe you think this doesn't uh do anything to what you just said, but the Christian would say, "Yeah, see that's just you in your your finite created um mind trying to fathom because the Bible says eye hasn't seen nor has ear heard the things that God has in store for those who love him." And so it's like there's this idea that you couldn't fathom what heaven is going to be like.

[01:03:06]So for you to from this standpoint say, "Oh, that's going to be torture or hell." Of course you say that from this standpoint. You'd have to get there and let God prove to you or show you, you know, if he could design this wonderful life that you have now or, you know, just think about some of the great experiences that you're able to have.

[01:03:22]Imagine the God who's able to design those experiences.

[01:03:25]>> Imagine him designing an an an eternity for you. You don't think he'd be able to design something that would make you a want to be there forever and and b enjoy being there forever? You don't give him that kind of that kind of credit because that's what the story line of the of the says.

[01:03:43]>> I understand the story line. It's just that try to essentially remember the experiences every single second from the word that you are like the day that you're conscious and try to essentially memory memorize every single day uh until you die >> um no matter how um you know that uh period is. Okay. Now then transport then that multiply this to infinity >> right >> that is not that is not something that's like >> like that I'm something that I'm comfortable with you know >> you know you >> but that's just my rebuttal to that you know you cannot imagine how what heaven it is >> but it's just I'm trying to ground it into like facts and reality of the exhaustive of living every single day for an eternity.

[01:04:48]But anyhow, I digress.

[01:04:49]>> Yeah.

[01:04:50]>> So, >> hey, I appreciate the call, man. Thanks so much.

[01:04:53]>> All right. Thank you.

[01:04:55]>> Be Yeah. Be well. Good with you.

[01:04:59]>> All right. I got a couple super chats and I got two more people in the studio.

[01:05:02]Let me read these super chats real quick. Um Henry M, thank you for the $2 super chat. Says, "Keep pounding, brother." Thank you so much. I intend to. And Michael Apple with the $666 super chat says, "The fact that we can write meaningfully about hell but not about heaven should make us suspicious."

[01:05:25]You don't find that suspicious?

[01:05:28]Um, I didn't put on the screen. There it is. The fact that we can write meaningfully about hell but not about heaven should make us suspicious. Thank you for the super chat. And yeah, man, think about that. Like you would you would think that a God who you know what did he tell Moses who made the mouth right I made the mouth I can give you the words I can and you can't give us anything about heaven other than the dimensions of a new Jerusalem uh streets uh paved with with with stones and gold or whatever. Um even your even your revelation um idea of how the world's going to end. You're talking to us about swords and horses and trumpets and all kinds of, you know, stuff that I'm sure back in the first century that was all the rave, right? He rode in on a white horse. They blew the trumpet. Okay, cool. Here we are 2,000 years removed. Um Jesus is going to show up on a horse, is he? With a sword.

[01:06:28]Really? Um like what what's going on here? What's really good with this this imagery here? Uh but they could not fathom how to talk about heaven in a way that made us think, well, I want to go to there, right? Um yeah, that should be suspicious indeed.

[01:06:43]All right, let me go back to uh our callers. Thank you so much for waiting.

[01:06:48]Steadfast, I'm going to bring you into the studio now. And then Terrence, you're next if you hang in there. Um, and as always folks, if we got people on screen and you feel like the call is not really advancing, I'm going to, you know, make an executive choice. Um, but if you feel like it's not advancing, you can throw some red flags in and I'll know, okay, we need to move on to the next caller sooner rather than later.

[01:07:12]Albert Kim is in the chat. What's happening? AK.

[01:07:18]Um, okay. Let's bring Steadfast into the chat. What's up, my friend?

[01:07:27]Can you hear me?

[01:07:29]>> Yo, um I can't hear you for some reason.

[01:07:34]>> Okay.

[01:07:36]I don't know what to tell you.

[01:07:38]>> Yeah, because I can hear you just fine.

[01:07:44]The question is Oh, you can't hear me, so I can't even ask it.

[01:07:47]>> Hello.

[01:07:48]>> Mhm. Can you hear me now?

[01:07:50]>> Yeah. For some reason, I can't hear you.

[01:07:52]I don't know if you can hear me. Um, I'm new to this app, but everything seems set up. I don't know why I can't hear you.

[01:08:03]>> You can't hear me at all.

[01:08:06]>> Yeah, I can't I can't hear you. Okay.

[01:08:08]>> Sorry about that, dude.

[01:08:12]>> On stage though?

[01:08:13]>> Yeah. Maybe I can figure it out another time. I don't know. Um, let me see if I can talk to you in the chat.

[01:08:20]>> Hello? Can you hear me?

[01:08:22]I hear you. Can you hear me?

[01:08:26]>> Yeah.

[01:08:29]>> Give us one second. Let's try to see if you can work this out.

[01:08:33]>> Mic check.

[01:08:35]>> One, two, one, two. Uh, I I hear you fine.

[01:08:38]>> Can you hear?

[01:08:39]>> I hear you now. Yes, sir.

[01:08:40]>> What' you do so I can tell the next person?

[01:08:43]>> Uh, so there's three dots. Um, there's a there's a comment little symbol, then there's a three dots on the right, and then there's a exit button, right? Uh so if you click that the three dots on there on the right side at the bottom u press settings >> and then basically uh go to the audio and put it to whatever you're using. So I'm using meta glasses right now. So I think that's what it was messed up.

[01:09:06]Yeah, I had to make >> We are living in the future. Yo, this is crazy.

[01:09:11]>> We are living in the future.

[01:09:14]>> So you got no no phone, no screen in front of you. You're seeing me through your glasses.

[01:09:19]>> Nah, nah nah. I got my phone in my hand.

[01:09:22]>> I just I'm talking I'm talking through the meta glasses.

[01:09:26]>> I thought you were actually seeing me through the lens in in your glasses. I was about to like flip out like, "Yo, we're there. We We reached Jetson stage." Um, okay.

[01:09:37]>> What's going on with you, friend?

[01:09:39]>> Uh, nothing much, man. You know, I just I saw your that you were live and uh I thought that it was a pretty interesting thing and just um I don't know, man.

[01:09:47]kind of a a weird blessing to be able to talk to you, man. I I mean, little backstory, I grew up I grew up on Cross Movement, man. So, >> yeah, man. It's >> got to be weird. Got to be weird as hell right now.

[01:10:00]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and I I just dropped a gospel album. It's called Evangelion.

[01:10:05]So, I mean, you guys inspired me growing up. You know what I'm saying? Like, I grew up listening to Bone Thugs. Then then when I got saved, I got introduced to the cross movement. And yeah, man.

[01:10:15]And I was playing you guys all the time, you know, Larae and all that stuff.

[01:10:19]Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:20]>> Yeah. Okay. Uh, so wait, Evangelion, is it a Christian rap album?

[01:10:24]>> Pretty much, man. It's a gospel hip-hop album. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:28]>> Okay.

[01:10:29]>> It's 18 tracks.

[01:10:31]>> Okay. So, the prompt that made you want to call in, the prompt says, "Heaven is a horrible scam."

[01:10:39]Which would you like to talk about? Why I think it's horrible or why I think it's a scam?

[01:10:45]Um, tell me why. Well, I know why you think it's a scam. I'm pretty sure to to an extent, right?

[01:10:53]>> But yeah, why why do you think it's horrible?

[01:10:56]>> Okay, so this goes back to the point Michael Apple was making um earlier.

[01:11:00]>> Um, think about being somewhere. Well, let me ask you this. If you believe you're going to heaven, true.

[01:11:11]Uh I I I believe by faith that I I'll get there, but I have to keep fighting the good fight, man. It's uh it's a war out here, you know, other issues that I >> Yeah. I'm not saying I don't believe I'm not saying I don't believe I'm going to get there. But the thing is like >> um you know what they say like um that that he that endures to the end will be saved. So I just have I I got to keep fighting the good fight. And I'm I'm a person that I believe that you you can't lose your salvation, right? uh that that that that >> that uh that that that God is sovereign over your life and but but if if you're really in him then then you're going to you're going to have the fruit, right?

[01:11:49]You can't the apple tree doesn't produce oranges, etc., right? So, um so yeah, man, you know, just trying to uh work out my my my salvation with fear and trembling, you know. Yes.

[01:12:00]>> So, embedded in what you just said is anybody who is saved is always going to be saved, but no one knows if that applies to them.

[01:12:11]And you don't know until you endure until the end >> in a sense, you know, but I I think that you can have conf confidence um >> I think you can have confidence and and and move forward by by faith, you know, um by grace through faith, right? Um but but yeah man, if like for example, if I just >> if if if um yeah, every day is every every day we have to, you know, um put into practice what we say we believe, right? So yeah, and I've been dealing with a lot of battles. So I'm just fighting a good fight, man. You know, right now it's been a tough time.

[01:12:47]Probably not the best time for me to be on here in an apologetic setting, but >> but hey, man, I figure Hey. Yeah. But look, the humanist in me, >> I'm actually the just in hearing you say that, I was going to probe. The humanist in me is like, "No, don't even probe because I don't want to do anything that's going to cause you >> to think thoughts that you're not ready to think. So, I I'm going to leave the whole salvation issue alone and we can just talk about heaven."

[01:13:13]>> Ulightly even there.

[01:13:16]>> Yeah. No, it's okay, man. Don't don't worry about it. I I My faith is is I I would say my faith is well rooted in Christ. Uh I I think the just to be transparent and and not to be long-winded, but uh the real challenges for me came once I got married. Then I realized like, >> okay, now I got to put my faith into practice. I have to love an imp sinner, right? Uh until the end, right? And and uh and I didn't realize how difficult it could be to forgive and and and to be forgiven and and you know, dealing with >> your your sinful nature and her sinful nature and raising kids. it it you start this is where you it's like >> you get put in a furnace, right? And and and the the the impurities and the gold starts coming out and and so yeah, I think marriage is a great a great area for for truly testing your faith and growing in godliness. But some people come out of marriage burned up and some people come out refined like gold, you know.

[01:14:14]>> Um I have so many things I'm like, "Oh, do you want to say this? you. One of the questions that I I would I would probably want to ask is well, no, I'm not I'm not going to do that. Let's let's let's deal with the topic. The topic is >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[01:14:30]>> So, you your your question to me, why is heaven horrible? And I'm saying heaven is is a horrible idea, right? So, you do believe if you endure to the end, you will be in heaven. That's one of you that's what you're looking forward to.

[01:14:43]And you'll be in heaven with the God that you you're worshiping, right? New heaven, new earth. Are you going to be in the heaven or you going to be on earth? Do you have you worked out that part of your theology?

[01:14:55]>> Um, you know, that's um there, you know, theology is so broad, right? Uh I' I've read from Bible from cover to cover and I've read the Gospels many times. Um, but I think you got to read on a daily basis consistently to remember things. So, um, but I believe that I will be in in heaven with the Lord, right? And and that, um, and that any anybody who's who's in Christ will be there as well, right? Um, and and I do but I do believe that that if I'm not mistaken, I think that it will be in that new new earth. You know what I'm saying? The new heaven, the new earth.

[01:15:35]And that is that is heaven. You know what I'm saying? That that God is the sunlight in that in that heaven, you know?

[01:15:42]>> So, one of the ways I used to square that when I was a Christian was maybe heaven is a temporary thing that believers who die before the escaton, they go to be with God in heaven. But then when the new heaven and the new earth comes and the old heaven, the old earth is, you know, is is gone, we're going to be on the new earth. there is going to be a heaven. But I don't have any like reason to believe from the text that we're going to be in the heaven because from the Bible's standpoint, heaven is a place. It's not a it's not a dimension.

[01:16:14]It's a place. And in the Bible, for much of the Bible, that place was up there.

[01:16:20]Which is why when Jesus leaves the earth after the uh resurrection, what does he do? He ascends into the clouds.

[01:16:28]And when he comes back, he's going to descend in the clouds. So in the Bible, heaven was was up there. So I'm just curious for you, where is heaven?

[01:16:42]>> I'm going to say that heaven is wherever wherever wherever God is. You know what I'm saying? And where there's peace, where there's where there's no more tears, right? Uh cuz it does say that in heaven there will be no more tears. You know what I'm saying? No more pain, right? So heaven is after this life that we're living, right?

[01:16:59]>> So there is no heaven right now is what you're saying.

[01:17:02]>> No. No. I think God is heaven is is is where he God is everywhere. But I do believe that there's a pl there's like a throne room in heaven, right? Where where God is. And um I mean it's just >> we learn we learn things about heaven from scripture, right? And so I have to go back into Revelations to be completely uh accurate. But um but yeah, I do believe God reigns in heaven but but the earth is his foottool, right? So yeah, >> but if God reigns in heaven, >> where is that? Where is this heaven that he reigns in?

[01:17:39]>> Um >> if there's a throne room and all that, where is it?

[01:17:43]If I'm not mistaken, I I it seems to me that it's like a it's not in this particular um it's it's like a I believe it's a if I'm not mistaken, it seems to me that's in in it's a spiritual realm.

[01:17:55]You know what I mean? Um >> not in the Bible. It's not in the Bible.

[01:17:59]It's an actual place.

[01:18:01]>> You go up into the mountains, you look up, and you're right underneath >> the heaven. You can see God's feet.

[01:18:07]>> If you look at uh uh what was it?

[01:18:09]Exodus. I always forget even though we talked about early Exodus I think 24 where Moses takes the 72 elders up into the mountains and they look up and they're looking at God's feet and right over top of them is are you familiar with with um the cosmology in the Bible >> that in the Bible in Genesis 1:es 6-8 the sky is talked about like it's a hard dome. Are you familiar with that?

[01:18:36]>> Um not not that much. I've read I've read Genesis, but I don't I don't recall the heart dome.

[01:18:42]>> No. No. Um maybe. Is this like some kind of like flat earth kind of thing?

[01:18:48]>> Is it related to that?

[01:18:50]>> Is it is related? Because many people in the ancient world thought the earth was flat >> and thought that the sky was a dome. So almost like think about a tent, right?

[01:18:58]Think about a tent that has three corners or four corners, >> but it's all all the corners of the tent are touching the earth because it's flat.

[01:19:07]>> Yeah. The Bible talks about the the raia. It's a Hebrew word called raka and it talks about this dome Genesis 1 6 through8 this dome that God created to separate the waters above from the water out below. That's the key. The sky. Cuz when you look when you look at the sky, it kind of looks like you can see it what it is. It's got a color to it.

[01:19:28]Colors are same things, right? So they they see the color of the sky and they think it's a dome. And then in Exodus 24 elders into the mountain with them and they look at they look up they see walking walking around. So in the Bible, heaven is heaven is not place. If you go and mountains, you actually get a chance to think into heaven. Heaven.

[01:19:58]>> Okay. Let me ask you this.

[01:20:01]>> Uh well, based off what you're saying and what I remember, um I I think that what they're seeing and what they're describing in the scriptures is is more like a vision, you know. Um because if you go to if you go to Mount Everest or something, you're not going to see the same thing. But but but if you're if you're if you're Moses and you're walking in fellowship with God at that time and he's revealing things to you.

[01:20:28]Um I think that he saw a vision. I don't I don't think that in any just anybody can just go walk up that same mountain and see what he saw. Maybe at that time perhaps God revealed himself, you know, like um it could be that that uh God revealed himself to Moses and to the people around him if if he had anybody with him. But I'm pretty sure when he went to that place where where you know when he came back down and his face was shining, those moments where he walked and and talked with God, uh I'm pretty sure he was alone. Um, but so yeah, I think I think it was more so a vision and and not necessarily like him seeing um uh like like as if heaven like I could walk up the same mountain and see the same thing. I think it was a vision that he was seeing.

[01:21:10]>> Now, one of the things you got to keep in mind is the people who wrote the Bible, they talked about these things not thinking that one day we were going to have telescopes, microscopes, you know what I mean? like um that there was going to be a a a skill or a sport of mountain climbing and people would just be venturing off into the high mountains. They typically place gods in places that they thought most people are never going to go there.

[01:21:41]So, one of two things. Either this was a vision, so it didn't really happen physically, or they wrote about it as if it did happen physically because they weren't they weren't banking on anybody being able to ever fact check this stuff. But either way, Jesus ascends, you know, fast forward from Moses, Jesus ascends, >> right? Because think about it. We now know the earth is a sphere, >> right? So no matter where you are on the earth, if you go up, at some point you're going to end up in outer space.

[01:22:13]There is no up or down or whatever. It seems like it's up to us. You're really not going up. You're just going out through a bunch of different directions, right? There's no up. It's just out. But in the Bible, when they didn't know that the earth was spherical, Jesus could go up because for them, there is no out.

[01:22:31]It's just up. And up is heaven. And when he comes back, he's going to descend. Do you think that those are is that being literal or is that figurative? When it says that Jesus ascended into the clouds and then he's going to come back on the clouds, is that figurative or do you think that's literal?

[01:22:48]>> Uh I think I think when they were with him, when he revealed himself to his disciples, uh I think that he did ascend. Um and they saw him ascend. I believe that they saw him ascend.

[01:23:00]>> Um because at that point, he was no longer just the the God man, right? He was he he was the risen uh savior, right? And so he had he had a different body. Remember he he walked through the door. They didn't I I don't even think it doesn't say that he he he used the key. He just he just like went through the door or or or something. It seems like he just like um >> So if he's got a different kind of body that can just go through doors and walls.

[01:23:27]>> I mean I don't I'm not saying that's what happened, but it just seems the way it's written. It does seem Yeah. The text says he's got a body that the doors were locked and he came in among them.

[01:23:37]>> He's got something. But if he's got a body that can like glorified mess with >> a glorified body that can like um uh break the laws of physics, why does he even need to ascend? Like why can't he just like vanish? Like for some reason he physically in the text goes up.

[01:23:55]>> Why is he going up?

[01:23:58]Um, I think that everything that God does is for a reason. Sometimes it's it's it's to >> um communicate something to us. And and I think that >> I think in this case, he ascended because he came down from heaven, right?

[01:24:13]He stripped himself of all his glory and humbled himself, became a man, right?

[01:24:18]And then to the point where and he obeyed God and served us, right? And served God at the same time. uh to the point all the way to the point of of death on the cross, right? And so when he ascended, it's it's it's him going back to glory, right? And and and so uh God communicates that to us.

[01:24:36]>> Uhhuh.

[01:24:37]>> You said going back to glory. Is that figurative or literal? Is he literally >> going to the right hand of the father?

[01:24:43]Yeah. To to to present.

[01:24:45]>> He's got to go up to do that though, right?

[01:24:48]>> Uh he's he I mean to us it might look like it's up, but you know, I don't know. It just um Yeah. I mean for for us it always it seems like heaven is up, right? And it the the the stereotype is like heaven is up and hell is down. But but but uh but I feel you like you know >> that's not a stereotype. In Peter it talks about the angels who did not keep their first estate are chained under the earth >> waiting for judgment. Yeah.

[01:25:19]>> So, this is not like this is not The Bible really does say these things about heaven being up >> and there being some kind of existence under the earth where fallen angels are chained. And Jesus said God's going to send people to this hell that he made for the devil and his angels. So, the heaven up, hell down, it's not that we bought to the Bible. It's in there.

[01:25:42]>> Yeah. But that's why I think it's a spiritual I think it's more I think it's a spiritual realm because if we go if we if we took a rocket ship and went up to to to be be beyond Earth, we'd be in space. We'd be seeing the moon. Of course, you can't go to the sun cuz you burn up, right?

[01:25:59]>> The writers didn't know that. They didn't know that.

[01:26:02]>> They they only knew what the Lord allowed them to know, right?

[01:26:06]>> Yeah. The science at the time and what the Lord whatever the Lord revealed to them, that's all they knew. You know, >> if God revealed to them the science of the time, did God lie to them because God allowed them to think heaven was up and hell is beneath the earth?

[01:26:19]>> I think >> from God.

[01:26:21]>> No, I think it's more so um I think it's more so the use of of the the use of particular language at the time, right?

[01:26:29]Uh I mean, I'm not sure what the Greek or Hebrew says. Um but I think I >> Yeah. Do do are do you know like as far as >> there's several different words for um >> hell uh things that are translated as hell that weren't really hell but it got turned into hell. So you got shield in the Old Testament. You got gehenna in the New Testament. You got Hades in the New Testament. Um these are all different words that get sort of boiled into hell. I think heaven in the Greek is oron or something like that. I I can't remember what heaven is in the Greek. Um, >> yeah, >> but I mean I'm I'm talking about the word up in general. Uh, I think it's more I I I think if we read it like literal and and I think we might get wrapped up into something that God didn't necessarily intend us to to over complicate it. It's more perhaps it's just I think it's God just um you know, of course, I do believe that the the scriptures God breathed, right? And so the Holy Spirit uh led led the prophets and and the and and and the apostles to write the scriptures, right?

[01:27:30]Um, so I do believe it's inspired by the Holy Spirit, but um, but yeah, you the the use of the word up, I don't think it's meant to to say like, you know, that that yeah, if we let's just go up and that's where it's going to be. You know what I mean? Like I think it's I think there's more to it that there there's things that are not said u there's things that we have to learn through, you know, uh, as we read in the scriptures through discern u discernment and and inference and all these different things, right?

[01:27:56]>> Let me ask you this. Do you think that God knew that painting heaven as a place that's up and hell as a place that's down. Like he said there angels chained underneath the earth. That that doesn't sound like a a spiritual dimension. It sounds like a physical thing. Do you think that God knew ahead of time that we would one day find out that heaven's not up and there's no place beneath the earth where demons are chained? Do you think God knew that? Well, I think I think that I think there's definitely I doesn't the scripture say that God is a spirit, right? And like for example, we see demons. We we you know, we see demons described in the Bible and sp like people being possessed with demons, but when they when they were cast out, did we see the demons? Did was there like a dark shadow that came out of the person and and and ran off or something? I don't think so. Right. I think that I think that there there is a spiritual realm and I think there's a physical realm. And so um that's why I think that that if we understand that then we can understand that look we we we don't get tripped up in this uh this um you know the subject of words like up down well I went up and I didn't see heaven so it must be fake. I think I think it's I think there's a spiritual realm and a physical realm. Um now >> so are the demons chained underneath the earth >> in a are they chained underneath the earth in a spiritual way or a physical way? I would say in a in the spiritual realm. Um, now the spiritual realm to them. Um, I don't know if if if the word physical will be a way to describe it, but um, right now we're in this physical realm and we have a physical body, but this body is going to, you know, decay. At some point I'm going to die. I'm going be buried in a grave, right? Um but the the you know the spirit the soul is eternal you know and and and and so um what I'm trying to say is I think the spiritual realm in a sense is more real than this physical realm because this physical realm is temporary in that sense where we die you know what I mean and and and and physical right >> yeah yeah >> and so you chain somebody under the earth spirit under the physical earth and you chain them in a spiritual place under the physical Earth. Isn't that sort of like a category like error? Like how do you physically chain or how do you spiritually chain someone or something some demon under the physical earth? Like how does that work?

[01:30:32]I think it's just a I think that um I think it's a it's the the words that was chosen to describe it, but it might not mean it might not be I don't think that it it means literally like um I think there's more to it. You know what I mean? Like I I >> there there could be >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think there's just more to it.

[01:30:55]>> There would almost have to be. there have to be more to it because as is >> it it doesn't add up.

[01:31:02]>> Like if I if if I was somebody like RC Sproul, you you probably heard of him, right? I I think he'd probably be able to answer this question a little better.

[01:31:11]>> No, I mean you're doing you're doing great in the sense that the Bible doesn't really tell us >> like it it lit because it was going off of what they knew at the time. You could say something was happening under the earth and no one's they don't have drill bits to dig down into the earth to find out. You could say that uh heaven is up and no one's got a telescope to look up there. So here you >> I really do think I really do think it's a spiritual realm, you know, because it's it's like when when people experience demons, you know, somebody might experience a demon but but you're not going to you may not see that demon physically, right? Unless the Lord opens your eyes and you see it, but you're still seeing a spirit. you're not seeing a physical human being walking around, you know what I mean? Um, >> yeah. So, I do think there's a difference between the spiritual realm and physical realm. And in the spiritual realm, things are eternal, right? Like, like, you know, when when you if you do go to heaven, you're going to have a glorified body that that is not corruptible and and that that is eternal. Right now, it's like our soul is living in this in this shell here, right? So, >> all right. So, let's go back to this was a nice long excursion, but I want to get back to why I think heaven is a horrible idea.

[01:32:22]>> Let me ask you a question.

[01:32:24]>> Do you think that you're going to have freedom in heaven?

[01:32:28]>> Um, yeah. I think I think you'll be free with the Lord, right? Um, I I think you'll be more free than you are on this earth because >> So, you'll be free in heaven.

[01:32:37]>> Will you be free to go anywhere you want?

[01:32:42]Um, man, I think I think heaven is going to be much grander than this place here.

[01:32:48]You know what I mean? It's just where >> you be free to go go where wherever you want.

[01:32:53]>> I I think you'll be free to go wherever you want. Wherever there there is a pathway in in in the kingdom of God, right? Um with do anything you want. Um, I think you'll be free to do um whatever you're capable of doing in that in that glorified body. Um, you know what I mean? Incorruptible body, right? Um, yeah. I don't think you're going to be able to sin. Not anymore be because God's going to do away with sin and all that stuff, you know?

[01:33:20]>> So, you won't have the ability to make a sinful choice in heaven. Will you have free will?

[01:33:26]Um, I I I think you I think you will. Um, well, I think you'll have I don't know >> because you can have a sinful desire without acting on it, right? You can you could want to harm somebody and never act on it. Right. But in heaven, will you even have the ability to want something that God doesn't want you to want?

[01:33:51]>> Yeah. that I I don't believe you'll be able to because it you know after you know >> um being resurrected you you will have a you you will be more you'll be like Christ you know what I mean in in the kingdom of God and so like that means that you will no longer have a sinful nature and so you won't be able to think sinful thoughts you know what I mean because then what was the point if if Satan sinned in heaven and and got cast down and and here we are in this chaos right um you know well with chaos and and and the the battle between good and evil and all this stuff going on, right?

[01:34:26]Uh the fall of man. So everything that transpired from Satan, you know, um sinning against God, right, and being cast down, falling from heaven, you know, like lightning in if I'm if I'm not mistaken. So um yeah, I don't think in heaven God would I don't think God is Well, I know I know in heaven you won't be able to sin anymore, >> right? Would you call that free will then if you can't do certain things in heaven? Well, um I don't even So, I do believe like I' I've I'm not like I'm not going to say that I'm I'm not going to use a term like well I I I'm I'm I lean more towards reform, right? So, I' I I've read things from >> uh John Calvin and Martin Luther and stuff like that, but >> free will now. Basically, >> I think that our our will is limited. I think that God is sovereign uh even over our will that uh you know that he ordains everything that comes to pass. I do believe that um because otherwise he wants >> if God is sovereign over our will then even the things that we want here and now it's not really us wanting them.

[01:35:29]It's God wanting us to want them. No, I think I I think I think I think there's it's like almost like um I think it's almost like a song where where we collaborate in a sense, you know, like I'm singing, you singing, but but God is is is leading the the the music, you know, and and I don't know if that analogy is a terrible analogy, but what I'm saying >> how that works out with free will.

[01:35:53]>> No, cuz the thing is like if >> I don't want to sing the song, I don't have to sing the song if I have free will.

[01:35:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, cuz what what I mean is that like um if I wanted to to to rob somebody that's walking across here right now, I could. You know what I mean? But you know um but I'm I'm I'm not going to do it because I you know it's the wrong thing to do. And so it it it's it's weird. It's like, okay. Um, I just think that that that while God is is sovereign, he still allows you to make choices, but he he's still in control. Like, like RC Sproul put it, there is no maverick molecule. Um, and and it's because God is God. And and if God wasn't in control, then he wouldn't be God. And so um and that's why I think that we h we our will is limited. I I don't think that we have 100% free will like >> that I don't think that we I think that God is sovereign even even over our salvation that he he he elects um you know whoever he just he gives justice to to to one person he gives mercy to another. Right. And so >> Mhm. So this is really all just a a a play that is rolling out the way God has rehearsed it to play out. There is no real choice in the matter. Are you you're frozen. Are you still there?

[01:37:16]Uhoh.

[01:37:19]I'm giving you a minute to come back in.

[01:37:32]We might have lost steadfast. He's probably going to blink from the screen.

[01:37:41]If you are a theist, particularly a Christian who's looking forward to heaven and you don't think heaven is a horrible idea or a scam, you can call in. The link is in the chat. If you're on Facebook, it's the top comment. If you're on YouTube, scroll all the way up. It's the first comment. Um, or if you're on Instagram, check my bio.

[01:38:01]The link is in my bio. One of the questions I was about to ask, if he doesn't call back, I guess I'll ask it to you all because I was trying to find out from him what his idea of heaven is, because the one of the questions I wanted to get to is why I think heaven is a horrible idea. Not only do you not have free will in heaven, um, I almost want somebody here for me to ask this question, too. I don't want to just say it out into the ether. I'm trying to I'm biting my tongue right now because I want to talk to somebody about this, particularly a theist about this.

[01:38:34]That's sort of the the long on-ramp I was on um with Steadfast just now, but his phone might have died. I didn't see any red flags in the chat, even though we kind of had a very Oh, there was um Okay, the red flag was for the mic. Appreciate that.

[01:38:54]Um, even though that was a pretty meandering conversation, I sort of was just trying to fill him out to see what he thought about different things.

[01:39:02]Um, and maybe help him to think about things a little bit, but I was really just getting ready to kind of sink my teeth into the argument of why heaven is a horrible idea.

[01:39:14]If you are a theist, particularly a Christian theist, I'm going to drop the link in the chat again, but it is at the top and I'm pretty sure folks have been dropping it for you in the comments. If you're on Facebook, scroll all the way up. If you're on Instagram, check the bio.

[01:39:39]While I'm waiting for somebody to call in. I'll let you to let you know.

[01:39:42]Tomorrow night, Tuesday night, I'm going to have um Joshua Cowwell. He's been on the program before. We're going to be reacting to the uh video of Larae, the Christian rap, the rapper who's a Christian. Larae sat down with the Christian apologist God Logic. and LRae sort of played devil's advocate just throwing him questions and actually I think they were responding to a a popular what would I call this is he a counter apologist one of the online skeptics um who's got a lot of traction online they were responding to his videos and LRA was sort of just trying to like play devil's advocate so me and Joshua are going to be responding to their response tomorrow at 700 p.m. Eastern.

[01:40:41]All right, but if you are a theist out there, holla, jump in the chat, or preferably click the link, call in. I would love to talk to you about why I think heaven is a scam. One of the things I was saying to Steadfast just now who was on on the call, um, we know where the writers of the Bible thought heaven and hell were. Now, he tried to say that that they were those were that's spiritual language or figurative language. Um, they were not really talking about physical places.

[01:41:18]But the Bible runs it like, no, heaven is up, hell is down. We didn't get that from nowhere. We didn't make that up.

[01:41:26]That's in the Bible.

[01:41:28]And so now that we have advanced in our understanding of nature, our understanding of the world, we know there's no heaven up there. We've got no reason to think that there's a hell down there. Um, what gives? What what do you do? How are you still going around the world talking about a heaven and a hell when we know enough now to know that's not how that actually works?

[01:41:55]Um, but imagine being in heaven, right?

[01:42:00]Imagine being in heaven. Uh, when I was talking to Kika, the first caller, I asked him, "What if what if you go to heaven and it's just you and God?

[01:42:16]And that's it. What if nobody else is saved? Right? Because one of the things that I mean in the last caller were talking about the Bible says he that endures to the end will be saved. Now, of course, when that verse was written, it was not talking about any kind of New Testament version of salvation, but believers now apply that to New Testament versions of salvation. So if only he that endures to the end will be saved.

[01:42:42]What if you get there and it's just you and God forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and forever ever and ever and it's just you and God. Would that be enough? Would you be would you still jump for joy for that kind of eternal existence?

[01:43:05]And you might say, "Ah, but in Revelation chapter 7, it talks about there's going to be this great number of people that can't be numbered. Um, this great multitude from every tribe and every nation. So, you're not going to be there alone. There's going to be there going to be other people there." Um, the question I have for I I wish I had a theist on the line. Maybe I I'll ask it again if a theist calls. But let's say you're there and maybe it's not just you and God. Maybe it is, maybe it's not.

[01:43:33]But it's you. It's you and God. It's you and God and other people. And you're in heaven. And you're there, I mean, forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Like, what if you get tired of being there?

[01:43:48]Can you leave?

[01:43:53]What if you get tired of existence?

[01:43:56]Can you opt out?

[01:44:00]Can you Can you say like, "Yo, this was dope. This was this was crazy. Like 79 trillion years. Yo, this was crazy.

[01:44:12]But But y I had enough. Like can I just can I check? Can I can I go?

[01:44:20]Like what what would God say if you was like, "Excuse me, like I'm I'm good. I'm good.

[01:44:28]I want to go now."

[01:44:31]And God says there's nowhere else to the only other place to go is hell.

[01:44:37]You want that? And you're like, "No, no, no. I don't I don't want that. I just don't want to be here anymore. I'm I'm cool."

[01:44:43]Like, would God allow you to just not be?

[01:44:48]Not not be there. Just to not be. You decide, you know what? Existence was fun. I'm off this now.

[01:44:56]Is God going to hold you hostage to having to exist?

[01:45:04]Now, you might say, um, at his right hand of pleasures for every ever more, who would ever want to stop being pleased?

[01:45:14]I mean, 600 trillion years of being pleased and like, do you think you'd ever like, could you ever get to the point where you're like, I don't want to. No offense, God. I mean, you're killing it. You You made it fun. You You But I had enough. Or is God going to forever have to find ways to motivate you to stay?

[01:45:41]You don't want to go yet. I'm I'm going to make Don't worry. I'm going to make a new kind of food that's going to you know, you haven't had this yet. And when you taste this, it's going to make you want to stay for another trillion years.

[01:45:50]And you said, "Okay, I'll stick around."

[01:45:52]And you taste it. Oh, you were right.

[01:45:54]Give me another trillion. But then after trillion, you're like, you know what?

[01:45:59]This was cool, but is God going to forever keep finding ways to make you not want to go?

[01:46:08]Because that's that's its own kind of torture. That's its own I remember when I was a kid, it was the remember the Twilight Zone.

[01:46:18]Was it the Twilight Zone or was it the Creep Show? I forgot which one it was. I think it was the Twilight Zone where the kid who had powers and he like trapped his whole family to stay but he like took one person's mouth away. He took one person's like he just kept finding finding new people to bring into the house but doing what it took to make them not be able to leave and you just had to stay there with them. Like is heaven really hell just without the fire, without the flame? like you have to be cuz he's never going to let you go. And he's always like a like a a infinite jester going to find ways to motivate you to want to stay.

[01:47:05]Thank you. Mythos boy says it was Twilight Zone. Y'all remember that, right? I remember when he took home girl's mouth away.

[01:47:14]But to me that it's a horrible idea.

[01:47:18]Like to me, it's not heaven unless you get to decide that you want to be there and you want to be there any like another day, another second. Like, can you and if you've ever watched The Good Place, you know that was the dilemma that they ended up wrestling with in the last couple episodes of the last season was what do you do when you've done everything? You've done everything there is to do. You've invented new and you now you can't come up with new things to invent. You say, "Oh, but God's so creative. God so he's infinitely creative. He's going to keep coming up with things to make you want to be there."

[01:47:59]Why does that sound like manipulation?

[01:48:02]Why does that sound like like if you're going to just keep coming up with things to incentivize me to stay, but you know I want to go, but you're going to keep coming up with things to make me want to stay. You're not even honoring me as a person.

[01:48:18]I'm really just there to honor you as a person. What I want doesn't matter.

[01:48:31]All right, perfect. So, got a a caller.

[01:48:33]Um I've talked to this caller once before and I'm looking for I've been looking forward to hearing back from uh Otangelo.

[01:48:42]So, uh, get ready to welcome Otangelo back to Kapa. What's happening, Otangelo?

[01:48:50]>> Yes. Hello. How are you doing?

[01:48:52]>> Pretty good. And remind me, just in case I didn't say it right, did I say your name correctly?

[01:48:58]>> Yes, you pronounced it correctly.

[01:49:01]>> Okay. And you are a Christian theist.

[01:49:05]>> Yes, that's correct.

[01:49:07]>> Okay. Um, do you agree or disagree with the prompt that heaven is a horrible scam?

[01:49:17]>> Well, of course I believe that heaven is real and I disagree with uh the claim, but since you made the claim, um, it seems to me to be an absolute claim and if you make any kind of absolute claim, you have the burden of proof to back it up.

[01:49:35]>> Yes. So, uh, first of all, it's a scam because it's not where the Bible told us it was. Would you agree with that?

[01:49:43]>> Excuse me.

[01:49:45]>> First of all, heaven is a scam because it's not in the place where the Bible told us that it was. Would you agree or disagree with that?

[01:49:54]>> Well, what does the Bible say where it was?

[01:49:57]>> Do you know?

[01:49:59]>> No, you you tell me.

[01:50:02]>> Okay. Um the Bible says that there is a divider that we call the sky. The Hebrew word is rakia.

[01:50:11]And this divider divides it separates waters above the earth from waters below the earth.

[01:50:19]And above this raka is not just waters but is the actual throne of God. That's where God lives in a in a a realm above the the the rakia. another word for for um it's translated in our Bibles several different ways as expanse or firmament or dome depending on which Bible that you read. And the Bible places heaven where God lives above the rakia. Do you think that there is a dome or a a firmament separating waters above from waters below and a heaven on top of that?

[01:50:54]>> No, I don't. Now my question is of course could it be that this is kind of um an analogy or symbolically spoken or maybe we would have to understand in the original language when it was written what is the context how it was written.

[01:51:13]>> I think uh some kind of exaguses would be very important in order to understand what the original writers actually said.

[01:51:21]Right.

[01:51:21]>> The context is Genesis chapter 1. Do you think that the animals in Genesis chapter 1 are an analogy or is it talking about real animals that God created?

[01:51:31]>> No, I believe that God created all living.

[01:51:35]>> Right. Do you think that the stars and the sun and the moon that's created in Genesis chapter 1 are analogy or real stars and sun and moon? Yeah, I think that we eventually have to make an exagasis. What could be understood as analogous analogy or what could eventually be understood as as literal.

[01:51:57]I think this is what Bible study is about to try to understand what the meaning is, right?

[01:52:03]>> Okay, hold on. You you use the word I'm not sure what the word I couldn't hear.

[01:52:07]You say you you think we have to try to make a what?

[01:52:10]>> Exagasis.

[01:52:12]Exog Jesus.

[01:52:14]>> Yes.

[01:52:15]>> Okay. Exesus. Okay. So, I am trying to do exesus here with you. I'm asking you about some of the other things that Genesis 1 talks about. The animals are real. The sun, the moon, the stars are are you're talking about physical real animals and stars and sun and moon in Genesis chapter 1, right?

[01:52:32]>> Yes. I believe that God created the physical world and life. Correct.

[01:52:36]>> Well, no, that's that you can you can believe that without Genesis chapter 1 teaching that. I'm asking you, do you think Genesis chapter 1 is teaching that God made the physical animals, the sun, moon, stars, physical, the plants? Do you think Genesis chapter 1 is talking about real plants, animals, and even man? Or do you think that Genesis chapter 1 is talking about something analogous, not animals, not man, not plants, something analogous?

[01:53:04]>> No, I believe that this is literal.

[01:53:08]Okay. So the question would be if Genesis chapter 1 is telling us about real things that God made man, woman, animals, plants, sea creatures, stars, sun, moon.

[01:53:24]Why would we get to the verse that talks about him making the rakia in that context and say, "Oh, but that's not literal. That's an analogy."

[01:53:34]I think um um once someone has to make um a study I I'm not prepared right now to tell you exactly what in the original language is is said what it means in what context it has to be understood but I'll I'll be happy to do it and then eventually even through email um I can tell you I I I have investigated and this is the outcome. I'll be happy to do that.

[01:54:01]>> Oh, good. And and I'll just say this just so that you can add it in if you go back and watch this. Add into that um Exodus chapter 24 that has Moses taking the 72 elders up into the mountains and they look up and they see the dome, they see the Rakia like sapphire stone and on the other side they see the feet of God walking around up there. So you can add all that into your whether this is a analogy or figurative or whether it's actually literal because Moses goes up to a up a literal mountain and comes back down from the literal mountain but up there he sees the feet of God on the other side of the raia. And so what I'm saying is if that's where heaven is in the Bible. One more thing, I just said this to the last caller, so sorry for the rerunning this, but when Jesus ascends after his resurrection, he goes up into the clouds, right?

[01:55:00]>> Mhm.

[01:55:00]>> Why do you think he goes up into the clouds? Where do you think he's going?

[01:55:05]>> He's going to the heavenly realm.

[01:55:08]>> The heavenly realm. So, the heavenly realm is up up, right?

[01:55:15]I don't know if the heavenly realm is actually a different dimension which transcends this one. I'm not sure about that.

[01:55:22]>> If it's a different dimension, he doesn't have to go up. He can go sideways. He can just go invis. If it's a different dimension, he doesn't need to go up. He only needs to go up. If it's physically above where he was at on the ground, that's the only reason why he needs to go up. Would you agree?

[01:55:36]>> Yeah, sure.

[01:55:38]>> So, it seems to be from a biblical perspective, heaven is up, right?

[01:55:45]Yeah, it could be. Sure.

[01:55:47]>> Yeah. And we've gone up as a species, right?

[01:55:53]>> What?

[01:55:53]>> You've been on an airplane before.

[01:55:55]You've been on an airplane before, I'm sure. Right.

[01:55:57]>> Sure.

[01:55:58]>> You've looked down at the clouds, right?

[01:56:00]That's a beautiful sight. If you ever looked down at the clouds.

[01:56:04]>> Yeah, sure.

[01:56:06]>> Question. I just want you to think for a second. If the biblical writers had been able to catch an a airplane, catch a flight, and you told them, "Hey, when you when you go up these stairs and take a seat on this thing, they don't know what it is, so you can't even say airplane. When you go up into this contraption and sit down, it's going to go up in the sky and you're going to actually go through the clouds and you'll be able to look down on the clouds." Do you think that they would have expected to see the realm the the the realm of God or not?

[01:56:40]>> Well, we have some examples in the Bible where some servants they saw the the heaven open and they saw the heavenly realm. They saw angels and things which we commonly do not see. That's why I am saying that I am perfectly fine in imagining or thinking that there are higher dimensions to which we have no access.

[01:57:06]>> But and I hear you and I you used the word a minute ago. You said imagine I think that might be the best word to use there. But so Elijah right a chariot comes down for him and takes him up. It doesn't take him to a another realm. It just takes him to the highest part of this existence where God seems to have been. All I'm saying, and you you can you can tell me how what you think about this. It seems to be that from the Bible's perspective, heaven is up above the clouds. And we now know there's nothing up there but space and stars and galaxies. And there's no heaven up there where the biblical writers would have expected it to be. That seems a little scammy to me. How about you?

[01:57:54]>> Uh, what is your name, please?

[01:57:57]>> Uh, they call me be good on this channel, but my real name is Brady.

[01:58:02]>> Okay, be good. So, um, as I told you, I believe that there are dimensions to which we have no access. Okay. And we read in the New Testament that Jesus when he did resurrect, he was able to go through walls. he was able to suddenly appear to the apostles. He had not to go um through normal doors. That's what I think indicates that there are dimensions which we have no access to and probably heaven is one of these dimensions. Now I understand your criticism or your skepticism that is perfectly fine. Okay. Now what I would like to know from you is this. In the same sense as you are skeptical in regards of the Bible stories, have you done the same kind or applied the same kind of scrutiny or skepticism towards the proposition that the physical world, nature, the universe, life, consciousness doesn't need a creator?

[01:59:14]I try to all the time.

[01:59:18]>> Okay. So, did you find some kind of satisfactory explanation in regards of the existence of all these things without requiring a creator?

[01:59:36]Uh I want to say yes while at the same time saying the jury is still out because from what I understand about the reality that we are a part of uh everything is um I could I could look at it atomistically. I can look at it from a chemical standpoint. I can look at it from an interactionist standpoint. I think there are interactions going on all the time at the highest and lowest when I say lowest I mean the smallest quantum levels of interaction and I don't know what those interactions have the ability to produce but I think if if anything what we're seeing is the interaction of all kinds of different forms of matter and mass uh from the chemical becoming biology to becoming the psychology that we are dealing with right now. I don't know that a creator, matter of fact, I'm I don't want to say I don't know. I don't think a creator is necessary for that. I think all you need is uh time, chance, matter, energy, and possibly I don't I don't think this way, but maybe possibly consciousness, but not consciousness from the outside in.

[02:00:53]Consciousness of the material of the matter itself. I'm even open to to to that though I don't think it would be the same kind of consciousness that you and I experience. Um so I try to apply skepticism to all these ideas but I don't want to get too far off the point of heaven but you may have a a follow-up question to that because last time you were on we began to talk about some of that stuff. I want to get back to the the point of heaven but I'll let you have ask any follow-up questions that you might have.

[02:01:20]Well, you know the thing bigot is this there is basically two competing world views. In one on the one side there are all sorts of world views where there is no creator. On the and on the other side there is there are world views where there is a god or creator. Either there is a god or there is not. And I define god in very basic terms. I say he is eternal, powerful, conscious and intellig in intelligent person. I put >> Can I ask you something? Because you >> you snuck in something in there that I don't know that you snuck in. You said eternal, powerful, conscious, and one more thing you said.

[02:02:02]>> Intelligent, >> intelligent, but you also snuck in there he is God also male. Now we can look we can put this out but important here is to say that logically these qualities they do not contradict each other. That means from a logical standpoint a dat which has these qualities is possible.

[02:02:24]Would you agree with that?

[02:02:26]>> I'm sorry real quick. My my Instagram um went out. I gotta give me one second. I got to get Instagram back in. Um if you just give me one second. I'm sorry. Um, I'll be right back with you.

[02:02:48]Uh, create try to reme remember what what you were just saying. I'm sorry. Um, heaven.

[02:03:02]Almost done. Almost done.

[02:03:06]All right, stream key.

[02:03:12]Boom. And people were watching on Instagram. That's why I'm only making sure I get them back in real quick.

[02:03:18]All right, so there's that. And then I got to go here and go live.

[02:03:28]Why is it not letting me go live?

[02:03:31]Connect streaming software. Go live.

[02:03:34]There we go.

[02:03:38]Okay. Sorry if you were watching on Instagram. Um, it only allows me to go for an hour at a time and then it shuts off. So, I had to to go out and get it back in. Uh, sorry about that.

[02:03:49]Instagram. I'm sorry, Otangelo. Can you can you I'm sorry. Sum up what you were saying because right when in the middle of you talking, Instagram went out and I had to focus on that.

[02:03:59]>> Yeah. So, in my understanding, there is a true dichotomy. God exists or does not exist. And I define God with with some qualities which are not contradicting each other. I define that dity as eternal, powerful, conscious and intelligent, a p intelligent person, an intelligent mind.

[02:04:25]>> So a an an eternal person. So remember last time you were on I I forgot about this. I asked you this last time. Um, does God have any choice in whether or not he's eternal?

[02:04:40]Like if God decided today to stop being, could he?

[02:04:47]>> I don't know.

[02:04:50]>> Well, that would be sort of a problem either way you look at it, right? If he could stop being, then nothing exists anymore, which seems like that would kind of be like, well, no. I mean, he should be able to do that. If if he's got all power, he can just not exist.

[02:05:03]But if he doesn't have the power to not exist, then he's sort of a slave to his his own existence.

[02:05:10]Yeah. I think the term all powerful has to be defined because it uh brings with it a lot of of problems. That's why I don't characterize him as or or it or whatever you want. So God is not omnipotent, just powerful.

[02:05:28]>> Yeah. I I say just that he has the ability to do things. Okay.

[02:05:34]>> To do things that are possible things, he can do those things.

[02:05:37]>> Yes. God cannot do impossible things. He cannot do illogical things.

[02:05:42]>> Is it possible for God to not exist?

[02:05:46]>> I don't know.

[02:05:48]>> Okay. Um because that was one of my complaints about heaven. You're looking forward to going to heaven, correct?

[02:05:58]>> Excuse me.

[02:05:59]>> You're looking forward to going to heaven, correct?

[02:06:02]>> Yes.

[02:06:04]>> If you ever decided while you're in heaven that you would rather just not exist anymore, do you think you'd have that option? Would God honor that that choice of yours?

[02:06:15]Well, you know, I think I mean I really don't think that I will ever want to not exist even here in this life. I prefer to live rather than not to live.

[02:06:27]>> And of course, I mean, I can I can do suicide if I if I want and many do suicide.

[02:06:34]>> But I also think that on the other side it is possible to cease to exist. So I don't believe in eternal hell. I believe that uh hell is uh temp temporary. Okay.

[02:06:45]>> Yeah. I'm not asking about hell. I'm asking about heaven. Could heaven be temporary or do you think that you'd be you'd sort of be forced to exist even if you didn't want to?

[02:06:56]>> Again, I think that trying to scrutinize hypothesized scenarios which I think are not real is is a waste of time. I I believe that >> no I mean the apostle Paul does it in the moment the Bible describes heaven it will be um perfect existence and uh in the presence of of God and it will be uh pure happiness. So I think nobody will will want to stop to to to exist or to to cease to exist. So this is not something which I think is um is even relevant to to consider or to scrutinize.

[02:07:36]>> In Romans nine, Paul hypothesizes. He says, "What if, right? What if God desiring to show his mercy to vessels of uh uh of mercy? What if God had a whole other category of people that he made to be vessels of wrath just so that the the vessels of mercy could see how merciful God is by looking at them?" Now Paul's not necessarily saying that this is what God is doing. But then he does say like how can the pot say to the potter why have you made me this way? God could do that.

[02:08:05]But Paul's just being hypothetical. So even in the Bible there's nothing wrong with hypothetically just saying hey what if Jesus says hey what if I want him to remain until I return. And then the writer says Jesus was not saying that this guy was going to live until he returned. Jesus only said what if. So we could what if a little bit. I'm just saying what if you're in heaven and after trillions of years you decide damn I had enough of this. What do you think God would honor that? It's just a friendly what if? Because >> yeah but let me ask you this. You are you an atheist? Are you an agnostic? Are you a positive atheist? How do you describe yourself?

[02:08:45]>> I am I am atheist concerning any god I've ever heard of. I'm agnostic as to whether or not a god exists. I don't think a god exists, but I could never I'd have to be everywhere to prove that there was no omnipresent god. And if I was everywhere, then I would be omnipresent. So then I would be god. So I can't rule God out. So, so in order for you to have a warranted position be good, you will would need to be able to give a superior explanation in regards of our existence >> rather than someone like me rather rather than some somebody like me which is a theist >> and thinks that God is the best explanation for our existence. So if you don't have one and if all you have is heckling in in the Bible, then I don't think this is a solid epistemological approach and framework in order to have a warranted belief and position.

[02:09:44]I don't I don't agree with that because there are all kinds of things that I could heckle without being able to show you a replacement and you would probably still appreciate my heckling if you're Is that a um is that a is that a is that that's not your real background behind you right now? Is it?

[02:10:01]>> No. No, it's not.

[02:10:03]>> Okay, let's just pretend it is. Another hypothetical, right? What if that was your real background behind you? That was your real house. And I, let's just say your house caught fire, right? And somebody said, "The fairies burned down Otangelo's house. The fire fairies came along and burned down his house." And I started making fun of the person that thought fire fairies burned down your house. If you would you come to me and say, "Well, Brady, do you have a superior explanation?" Because if you don't have a superior explanation, why are you making fun of the fire fairy explanation? I don't think you would demand a superior explanation if somebody else had one that was clearly untenable and laughable, right?

[02:10:50]>> Yeah. Sure. But I mean what you are doing is what I see 99% of atheists doing on YouTube and other um places which is basically criticizing our belief system but without providing anything of substance which would be a superior alternative. This is what I decided. Now let me finish please. Now you know you don't do me any service whatsoever if you try to track down my belief.

[02:11:23]What? Do you know why?

[02:11:24]>> No, I do. Oh, hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

[02:11:26]Hold on. Let me finish. Let me finish. I will let you finish.

[02:11:33]Listen.

[02:11:34]I'm listening.

[02:11:35]>> I will let you finish. I will let you finish. Start to talk.

[02:11:40]>> Nope.

[02:11:41]Oh, I had to mute you. I don't want to keep doing that. But listen, listen, listen.

[02:11:49]I don't want to keep >> one more time and I leave the stream.

[02:11:52]Okay.

[02:11:53]>> Oh, Tangelo, listen to me. I muted you because I was trying to say something to you. I will let you talk and I will let you finish. But if you say something that I feel like, hold on, you're going to say a whole lot more and I need to address this part first. I'm going to stop you to do that because this is my show. You can leave when anytime you want, but if I feel like I need to stop you, I'm going to do that. So, if you threaten to leave, you can just leave now. If I feel like I need to stop you to say something, I'm going to do that.

[02:12:20]That's how it's going to go. I want to finish the conversation. I want to give you the floor and let you talk. And I've been doing that this entire time. Go back and watch. But if I ever stop you, it's because I feel like I need to say something.

[02:12:33]>> Okay.

[02:12:34]>> Go ahead.

[02:12:35]>> All right. So, you said, "I'm not doing you any favors by critiquing your worldview, criticizing, and echoing it without offering something else in its place." But here's what I would say, and I want to hear your response to this.

[02:12:49]That's why I wanted to add it in before you went too much further. I do think I'm doing you a disservice because if if your view is as assailable as the fire fairies burning down your house, which is what I tried to show you by looking at how the Bible describes heaven, but we now know that's not true. To me, that is the epitome of your view being assailable. And there's many more things I could say to that end. I am doing you a service in this way. If I could take false things away from you, what I've done is I've cleared the way for you to embrace true things that we do know that contradict the Bible and maybe you would even join the team of people who are helping us find out. Okay, damn. If not that, then what are we going to replace it with? Maybe I don't have a full replacement. I've got some things I can replace Genesis 1 with evolution. And I could replace Genesis 1 with oh the way planets form is the sun or or their stars form first and planets form in their accretion disc. We can replace a lot of what the Bible already says scientifically. So I'm not taking that away and giving you nothing. What I am doing is saying if you didn't have that blocking your view, maybe you would be open to seeing some of the other things that we do now know and maybe you could even help us find better things to replace the mythology of the Bible with.

[02:14:06]So that's what I would say to your idea.

[02:14:08]I'm not helping you out if I'm not giving you something superior to what you already had.

[02:14:14]>> Yeah. So, let me finish what I was going to say.

[02:14:17]>> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I will let you finish. But did you hear what I just said?

[02:14:25]>> I would like to respond to what you just said.

[02:14:27]>> Okay. Well, you came in with let me let me finish what I was saying, not I hear you. Okay. Well, go ahead. You got the floor.

[02:14:35]Even if whatever I believe in regards of my bi of the Bible or my Christian faith, let's suppose that it all would be false, wrong, if Jesus would not be even a historical figure. If everything in the Bible was wrong, what still would remain was the first and second command of Christ. He said, "Love God foremost and then right next love your next as yourself." This is a a positive command which improves human well-being and society and it has done so in the last 2,000 years and even further. So my belief is positive because it urges me to do good to love my neighbor as myself. So I could be wrong in any aspect in regards of the Bible and still I would be holding a belief which has positive influence in my life and in my morals. So what you are doing is basically completely senseless and it's not only you be good. It's basically 99% of atheists and all right, let me respond to that because I'm not tell you and let me tell you more. I would like again you're interrupting me again because you talk for >> I just gave you the floor for over a minute.

[02:16:02]>> I just gave you the floor for over a minute. Hold. Remember what you're going to say. I'll come right back to you.

[02:16:07]Okay. You you just said something that I need to respond to. I'm not 99% of other people online. I'm me. And you just talked about loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. But if part of your loving God, if there is no God and you have to love God to love your neighbor, I am doing you a service by helping you realize, oh wait, I can love my neighbor without having to love God first. Because what if I'm loving God and God tells me homosexuality is wrong or God tells me that trans people, that's just a a demon or a mental defect or whatever. What if I'm loving a God that is an impediment to me being able to love my neighbor? If I can get the the false god claims out of there, you might do a better job at loving your neighbor. So, I don't think it's true that I'm it doesn't make sense for me to be doing what I'm doing. I see the benefit of what I'm doing. Well, the thing is that if I believe that my God is real and he exists and he has given us these commands to love my next as myself, then I certainly will urge to follow what he has demanded me to do.

[02:17:13]But if you believe that there is no God, then you have no moral obligations whatsoever. And if you are tempted to do wrong things to hurt your neighbor, to just um benefit yourself then the bar to do it is much lower because you don't think there is a god up there which will punish you if you do wrong things. So I think in the end if we just compare the consequences of naturalism towards the Christian belief system where there is a God which actually gives moral um duties and punishes wrongdoing then I would say that the the biblical worldview just comparing it in this sense >> what if your god moral duties framework >> what if you what if your god gives moral duties >> absolutely nothing in regards of moral besides what you >> What if your god gives moral duties to people to commit genocide?

[02:18:15]>> Excuse me.

[02:18:17]>> If your god gives moral duties to people to commit genocide, should I let you continue to believe in that god? Because hey, a god that's got moral standards is better than me as an atheist that doesn't have some objective moral standard, but your moral standard tells you it's okay to commit genocide. Should Is that okay? is like should we should I should I say hey he's more moral than me because his come from a god and mine just come from my own humanistic understanding of how life should be let's all listen to his god and now we're committing genocide >> I believe in a god which tells me to love my neck as myself I don't believe >> he may tell you that he may tell somebody else to commit genocide >> can I finish please >> it's a it's a dialogue we can go back and forth we can go back and forth without feeling like >> I mean Hey, I I cannot have a conversation when you interrupt me all the time and that's what you are doing.

[02:19:08]So either you give me time to talk or just have a monologue or search someone else to talk. Okay.

[02:19:14]>> Uh Tangelo, do you do you not have a give and take in your back like your conversations where you go back and forth? Do I have to wait for you to talk for two minutes before I say anything?

[02:19:24]>> I was I was trying to finish my sentence and you just don't let me.

[02:19:28]>> I understand. But your the the sentence that you're finishing it evokes such like I'm talking about committing genocide and you're saying, "Oh no, my God tells me to love my neighbor." But I already showed you like how in your own Bible your God is saying more than just love your neighbor. I live I don't know where you live. Where do you live? If you mind me asking what country you live in?

[02:19:48]>> Yes, I live in Brazil.

[02:19:50]>> Brazil. In my country, right, we have right now something called Christian nationalism where people are trying to use the Bible against their neighbor in the name of God. And they're they're calling people like me enemies. They're calling people who are transgender enemies. They're calling people who are on the political left enemies. And they're talking to the United States Army about getting rid of these fleas that they're calling enemies of Christ.

[02:20:19]>> Okay. So, let using the body which you do it. So let me ask you look on listen to interrupt you because otherwise I will lose the the hold on no hold on cuz you're being a hypocrite do the same thing I want you're being a hypocrite point now >> hold on you're being a hypocrite you now I want to answer to this >> hold on I'm okay with you cutting answer this >> I will hold on I will I want you to understand what's happening >> you're strong that's what you're doing.

[02:20:53]>> Tangelo, listen to me.

[02:20:54]>> [ __ ] I'm sorry.

[02:20:55]>> Oh, Tangela, listen to me. I like what you just did. That's the only reason why I'm stopping you. I wanted to point out to you, you just cut me off and I was going to let you, but I wanted to point out it's okay if you feel like something evoked a thought and you wanted to ask me something in the middle of my sentence. That's okay. But you're doing what I was doing and I'm okay with that.

[02:21:15]You understand what I'm saying?

[02:21:20]If Christ says the first do you understand what I'm saying again? You are interrupting me again. Wow.

[02:21:26]>> Because you did not answer my question.

[02:21:28]I said do you understand what I'm saying?

[02:21:29]>> I don't want to answer your question. I want to make a point.

[02:21:33]>> Okay. Goodbye.

[02:21:36]Um I was really trying to have a conversation. I want to understand not just like where the person's coming from. I want to understand how we're having the conversation, right? If I'm saying, "Hey, are we going to be cutting each other off?" Cuz we can do that as long as it's not like excessive and and disrespectful. He jumped in just now. I was perfectly fine with that. But I'm like, "Yo, if you're okay with doing that, then let me do that, too." And I feel like, "Okay, I need to jump in right here." We can have a good back and forth, a good give and take, but if I let you talk for two minutes, and then I try to cut you off and yo, let me finish. Then when I'm talking, you cut me off and I'm supposed to just let that happen. If we're going to let that happen, let it happen both ways. I don't want to hear some I don't want to answer your question. I want to finish what I was saying. Like, we got to have some kind of respect in how we're doing this.

[02:22:32]And I'm saying that hoping that you're still listening because if you ever do call back, I don't I hardly ever mute people. I don't kick people from the studio. But it's not going to be this thing where you tell me how to operate on my channel. I want to hear you. You hopefully want to hear me. We're going to go back and forth. If we cut each other off, it's because, oh, you're passionate about this. I understand it.

[02:22:54]Let me let you get get your words in.

[02:22:56]That's how we're gonna do it. All right.

[02:23:00]Uh, did I miss anything in the chat?

[02:23:04]Scrolling up real quick. And I have Steadfast back in the uh queue.

[02:23:12]It's a lot in the chat, so I don't know what to pay attention to unless you guys are going to super chat something. Other than that, uh, I can't see what's happening. So, okay, Steadfast, welcome back.

[02:23:25]You're back in the studio. What's happening, my friend?

[02:23:31]Let's see if if uh can you hear me?

[02:23:32]>> No. Can you hear me?

[02:23:33]>> You got to I can hear you. Can you hear me?

[02:23:38]Can you hear me? You got to do that thing again.

[02:23:40]>> One sec. For some reason doing um >> Hello. Can you hear me now?

[02:23:50]>> I can definitely hear you. Can you hear me?

[02:23:53]>> Yes. Yes. We back, man. My phone died, bro.

[02:23:58]I had a feeling. I had a feeling.

[02:24:00]>> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, man. That That was a great discussion, man. I I like the tangelo, but you guys you guys had a heated moment there. And uh Yeah.

[02:24:11]>> Now, he was saying some of the very things that you were saying. Did you Did you catch that? He was saying some of the things that you were saying >> a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. You You know that that that uh that point that you made about the genocide and stuff like that. Honestly, I thought you was gonna take it back to to to the Old Testament, but you you taking it to the current time.

[02:24:28]>> I'm trying to >> Yeah. Yeah. You're taking it to the current times.

[02:24:33]>> Yeah. And and one thing that I wish for me >> Go ahead. I'm sorry.

[02:24:38]>> Well, all of it ties together for me. of God-giving. Like, so there's I don't know if you know, there are a few outspoken white Christian nationalist pastors >> who are actually calling for the return of those biblical ethics of how do you deal with um rebellious sons, stone them, uh women shouldn't have a vote, and they're really trying to take it back to some uh Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy type of law. And this is and they're using the Bible to do that. So to me, I don't just go to the Bible. I go to what's happening now and saying this is why I'm speaking out about some of this stuff. So those people like like you said, white nationalist, right?

[02:25:17]White white Christian nationalists. Uh I mean in your opinion, you know, remembering all that you read in the scriptures, do you think, you know, you know, considering the Old Testament and the New Testament, do you think that those people are are um reflecting Christ properly or do you think that they're they're using the Bible to to do their own agendas and they're actually not?

[02:25:38]>> Great.

[02:25:39]>> You know what I'm saying?

[02:25:40]>> That's a great question. Yeah, it's a great question, man. And I don't know if there's one answer to it because in one sense Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you or in your midst. So my kingdom is not of this world. If it was my servants would fight. But in another sense Jesus does like Jesus told his disciples yo get a sword. And no one I've never heard a sermon preached about why Jesus told his disciples to get a sword >> before his arrest.

[02:26:08]>> He told them to get a sword.

[02:26:11]Then the soldiers come. Peter pulls his sword and uses it. And Jesus says, Jesus heals the guy.

[02:26:19]>> And then he tells Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it was, my servants would fight." But then you go further and you do have these ideas of Jesus still um co-signing um the God of the Old Testament, this this war ready, wararmongering God. And Jesus does talk about a kingdom. He does talk about returning >> and uh and when he returns, what is that kingdom going to look like? And so I would I would probably be like you maybe and say, "No, that's not Christ. That's Old Testament. You know, God, we're in a dispensation of grace now and this, that, and the third." Um, but I I think there there might be some room with all the kingdom talk in the New Testament when Jesus returns. You we were talking about Revelation, right? Jesus is going to return and he's going to trample under he's going to trod underfoot the nations so much that the blood of the nations is going to rise to the bridal of his horse.

[02:27:22]>> So, it's like it's not like it's not part of the New Testament. It's just you have to wait for him to come and spark it. But I don't I wouldn't say that it's not in there.

[02:27:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

[02:27:37]>> Yeah. So I don't So I think that the the God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament, right? But um I think this is one of the most difficult topics for uh believers to grapple with.

[02:27:49]Um just like like the just like you could talk about like why did God create Lucifer, right? There's a lot of difficult things. there's something answers that we just don't have. We only have what God has has revealed to us. Um and and not just in scripture about what happened, but we know what God has revealed about himself, right? Uh his character, his nature. Um and so um but but yeah, so I think that um I think that in the old in the Old Testament, God had um I mean I mean if we're going to ask Well, first let me get to that point. I think the reason why these people are are calling for genocide and things that are wrong and and trampling upon the like for example Palestinian Christians without you know even you know realizing it perhaps or or maybe they're just blind to their own uh ideologies and and and and you know their their their their idea of God and their idea of scripture. I think they're just they're just um they're pushing a false uh a false path, you know, something that that's that's actually ungodly, but they think >> Let me let me ask you this.

[02:28:55]>> Yeah, I think this Yeah, go ahead.

[02:28:57]>> Do you think that these some maybe if they weren't white Christian nationalists? Maybe if they were just Christian nationalists, black, Asian, Latino, white >> Christian nationalists, >> would you be okay with what they're with with that kind of Christian nationalism if it wasn't a racial version?

[02:29:18]>> Um, so are you you're talking about like the um the the supporting Israel and and the annihilation of its enemies and and >> I'm not talking as much as I'm talking about. I'm talking about all the things that that that um so um trampling over the rights of LGBTQ people, putting the Ten Commandments in every classroom, calling America a Christian nation, um targeting skeptics and atheists as uh enemies of America. Um, yeah. Yeah.

[02:29:52]>> I wouldn't be able to have a YouTube channel like this >> under Christian nationalism because I'm a I'm an enemy of America's Christian cultural values.

[02:30:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think s I think a lot of uh I think there's a lot you know theology you you have to study it and and keep growing in the knowledge of Christ, right? Uh it does say study to show thyself approved, be prepared, right? uh you know so to my shame there's times where I'm not prepared to answer certain questions and and I'm not saying that this is one of those times uh but I have my limited limited knowledge but with regards to um you know these um these type of beliefs I think that um I I think that um I think that that they have a false understanding of scripture and so that's why they they they push that that belief system you You know, I I I think that >> okay, America is is not a Christian nation necessarily. If you I mean, if you look at even from the beginning like uh Christopher Columbus and all them people, if if the things they did to the Indians is true, like they they were like total hypocrites, right? And so like I think that for I think that I think as Christians we need to respect um the rights of of people in a nation that's not the the uh theocratic. Right?

[02:31:15]This is this nation is ruled by people that >> uh claim to be Christian but what they do behind the scenes and even in public reveals that they're really not. Right?

[02:31:26]And so um >> well let me ask you this. If all those people >> if all those people and and like so the Muslims, the Hindus, the the the um agnostics, the the atheists, the skeptics, if all of us moved away, we weren't genocided. We weren't put in uh warehouses or prisons or anything like that. We just all decided we don't want to live here anymore. And even the people that you think, well, they're not really true Christ followers. They're using the Bible for their own ends. And only the Christians were left here. Do you think America would then be a Christian nation and would it be a good thing?

[02:32:03]>> I mean, you know, I guess it depends on how you define nation, right? Um, if >> I was going to say I think it depends on how you define Christian because the the question for me would be whose Christianity would it be?

[02:32:17]>> Yeah. I think our Christianity needs to be biblical, right? it needs to be Christc centered and and uh in accordance with Christ's will and teachings, right? Uh and so if it's not, then it's then it's it's uh you could say it's it's like um distorted Christianity, right? Uh or >> but do Christians agree on what's Christ's will and Christ teachings? they we we don't all agree because we we we we have to keep learning and some sometimes what happens is we jump to conclusions that are not that actually are false and and like for example why did RC Sproul disagree with uh John MacArthur on on the subject of infant baptism right they disagreed but and yet they were both really wise theologians and they had their strong their their their um they had good things about about them each of them had their good qualities but they disagreed both of them couldn't be right. Right. So I think that we disagree on something that's inevitable.

[02:33:13]>> England's >> in England's history, they spent year I mean like centuries killing each other over what kind of baptism is biblical.

[02:33:27]>> Yeah. That's that's nature.

[02:33:29]>> That's so antichrist. Like how could you even think of doing that if you if you are in tune with the Holy Spirit, in tune with the Christ of the Bible, right? were not trying to be antichrist.

[02:33:39]They were trying to honor Christ. He says, "Go into all the world teaching men what I taught you, baptizing in the name of the father, the son, and only."

[02:33:46]They were trying to honor him >> and thought that their fellow Christians weren't honoring him by baptizing a way that they were that they were baptizing and so much so that they outcome the swords.

[02:33:58]>> And so, I guess, >> but there's no there's no Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, I guess to to to ask the question again in light of that now, if you take the skeptics, the atheists, the Bu Buddhists, Hindus, all and even the the the quote unquote uh fake Christians out and just left the people that you think are real Christians. I don't I still think you'd have a hard time saying this is a Christian nation because the Christians can't even figure out what it means to be a biblical Christian.

[02:34:27]Well, I honestly I think that um I think that we don't we don't have to have uh I think that any nation you have is going to be imperfect. It's just like any church you go to is going to be imperfect, right? Um you you could go to two different churches that are healthy churches, right? Uh led by by by, you know, wise ministers, wise wise pastors, but they might disagree on something.

[02:34:53]They might each have their own flaws, right? And so I think no matter what nation you have, if they want to call it Christian, there's always going to be points where there where where it conflicts with with with with God because we're sinners. Even that's why my I I I I nickname myself redeemed sinner because, you know, I'm a saint, but I'm still I'm still I'm still uh battling with this flesh. I still have a sinful nature. And so uh I think that the real definition of saint is redeemed sinner. You know what I mean? like um and and so I think that if you have a Christian nation, it's never going to be perfect because until Christ returns, we're we're still moving from glory to glory, right? We're growing in godliness and but man, this nation is by far like far away from being truly Christian, right? and and it it it we don't we shouldn't be like trying to force it to to be uh like I mean we can we can encourage people to do the right thing and and try to push for laws that honor God, but I think that when we try to force it, that's I don't think that's I don't think that's God's will, you know, for us to try to force our uh people to to to to have our beliefs or or you know what I mean? like this is not a Christian na nation in that sense you know like um yeah like >> yeah yeah yeah so so I don't yeah there I think that there the reason why you see a lot of uh things that are completely like like genocide like for example the crusades I think all these kind of things happen because people uh they they they they claim to study scripture but there were points where they absolutely failed and it even they failed to a point where it makes me wonder if they were really Christian to begin with if they were in Christ. You know what I mean?

[02:36:36]>> Steph, I'm curious like even as I hear you saying these things and I kind of know the mindset cuz I was a Christian for decades. So I'm like, ah.

[02:36:47]But >> yeah. Yeah.

[02:36:50]>> I'm I'm going to try just like I entered the Christian worldview last week just to try to like to see what it felt like to try to go back to believing. I'm gonna ask you to think about something real quick because you talked about, you know, going from glory to glory and you you're being sanctified and you're not what you're going to be. You're still you're a saint but you're you're you're redeemed and so you're you're you're you're on this path. Um >> does the lack of sanctification, the idea that you're not going to be fully sanctified until you leave this life.

[02:37:30]And same thing with your Christian brethren and sisters. They're not going to be fully sanctified until they leave this life as well. So, as long as you're here, you're left here with all of these like remnants of your your the old you, right? You're supposed to put to death the deeds of the flesh. You're no anyone who's in Christ is a new creature. Old things have passed away. All things are made new, >> right? But the lack of newness and the presence of oldness to the point where you still struggle with all kinds of sin, your Christian family, churches, the Christian the the country, all of this um I guess like for for lack of a better term, I'm going to call it the lack of sanctification.

[02:38:15]Does that never suggest to you that maybe like maybe something's wrong with this thing? Be like I mean 2,000 years he's he's coming back for a church without spot or blemish.

[02:38:28]>> But the church is probably more spotted, more blemished today than it was in the book of Acts.

[02:38:37]Um, does any of that ever make you say >> something's wrong with this?

[02:38:46]>> So, I think that I think I guess it depends on how we how our understanding of of without spot or blemish. Uh, and honestly like uh I believe that that p what that passage is is saying is that um that that spotlessness that blamelessness comes from Christ alone, right? Uh I I think that's that's what it is. Um and and so we have to be we have to abide in Christ and and place our faith in Christ to to be clothed with his his righteousness.

[02:39:17]>> Hold on. Right. Right. Because in in Revelation it says the bride has made herself ready.

[02:39:23]>> Doesn't say that he finally got his his bride together. Says she she's made herself ready. So factor that into what you're saying.

[02:39:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah like so I understand what you're saying and I think that um that apart apart from Christ we can't get ourselves ready um we we need we need first the righteousness of God we need to be justified by by by by faith right and in order to be reconciled with God and so now we're in that fellowship with God uh through Christ right and and so but I I like I said I I think that apart from him we can't get ourselves ready and so like I like we were talking about sovereignty, you know what I mean? Like whether we have like absolute free will.

[02:40:05]Um I I I think that it's it's I think that this kind of ties into that. Um because, >> you know, it's like Zechariah said, right? Zechariah 4:6 says, "Not by power, nor by might, but by my spirit, says the Lord." And so, like I said, apart from Christ, we just can't. We need we need that that we need to be born again first, you know, to see the kingdom of God and and to and to uh to to have that fellowship with God. And then and then >> that's been happening for 2,000 years.

[02:40:36]>> No, but we are. But the thing is we we we're saints, you know, we belong to Christ, but we're we still have a sinful nature. And so and and so that that sinful nature is why uh churches are imperfect. You know what I mean? And and so I think that um that when it says that that he's coming back for a church that's spotless and blameless, uh I think that ultimately it's talking about a church that's clothed with the righteousness of Christ because uh our righteousness is as a filthy rag. And so apart from Christ, our works alone is not good enough. But but God enables us to live a godly life uh you know by the power of the Holy Spirit and and and and being you know in that union with God, being one with God again. You know what I mean? Uh through Christ. So >> Christ sinless >> because you're not apart from Christ, right? You have Christ.

[02:41:29]>> Uhhuh.

[02:41:30]>> Right. So if you have Christ, >> you're not apart from Christ, right? You have Christ.

[02:41:37]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[02:41:38]>> Right. And you have the Holy Spirit, right?

[02:41:42]>> So why are you not sinless?

[02:41:46]it because we can be we can be in Christ but we still have this sinful nature to contend with you know and you know that through scriptures like like Paul he talks about it I think it's it's Romans chapter 8 or nine or you know one of those chapters where he talks about that um that the good that he wants to do he he doesn't do you know what I mean right he talk he he describes his his wrestling with the flesh his wrestling with with you know with sin and stuff like that and and and he's and and God also says that my power is perfected in you, right? Uh that um that my grace is sufficient for you because my power is is perfected in your weakness, right? Uh so and that's that's like my pastor once made that a def a point where he defined grace as God's power perfected in your weakness. So um just because we're in Christ, Can you repeat that again? I'm sorry.

[02:42:47]>> I'm sorry. Can you hear me now?

[02:42:50]>> Oh, we wouldn't be able to sin in heaven because >> heaven is a is a place where sin and death has has has it's been def it's been eliminated from from um Can you hear me? I'm sorry.

[02:43:14]Thank you, chat, for letting me know the mic was bugging.

[02:43:18]Uh, you hear me now?

[02:43:24]Can you hear me now?

[02:43:28]What? Why can't you hear me now? You should be able to hear me now. No.

[02:43:36]Is it just him or can y'all can y'all hear me, chat? Is it Sorry. Somebody says it's all good.

[02:43:44]Steadfast, you can't hear me.

[02:43:48]>> I can hear you.

[02:43:50]>> Oh, I was Yeah, I was >> Can hear me?

[02:43:52]>> Yeah.

[02:43:53]>> Oh, man. Sorry about that. I thought you I thought I thought I got disconnected and I was trying to figure out what was going on.

[02:43:59]>> My mic started bugging out. And when it does that, I have to disconnect it and reconnect it. And people in the chat, they know. They alerted me. But I guess you didn't hear me say I was unplugging my mic for a second.

[02:44:10]>> No, was weird. I could see somebody else and you maybe disconnected me for some reason and and you started talking with somebody else because I saw like another name underneath you so I thought oh like he started a conversation with somebody else and so I thought you were talking to them the whole time.

[02:44:27]>> Oh wow. Crazy.

[02:44:29]>> Um hold on.

[02:44:31]I was in the middle of answering your question.

[02:44:34]>> Yeah. Do you remember what you were saying?

[02:44:35]>> Yeah.

[02:44:36]>> Okay.

[02:44:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we were talking about um why why won't we we be able to sin in heaven? I think the the the answer is that um uh we would be you you go you you you're there's there's different levels of sanctification, right? I'm I'm sure you remember like you know when you're sanctified, you're set apart uh in the beginning, right? When you're born again, you're you're you're brought from the kingdom of darkness to to to to light, right? And then, you know, you have the pro the uh ongoing sanctification, you know what I mean?

[02:45:05]growing in Christ, growing in godliness, and then you have, you know, the the the um the the basically uh um the when when you're when you die and and are resurrected, then then you're then you you'll be uh made perfect, right? And and basically like glorification, you'll be you'll be like Christ. So, you won't have this sinful mind that we have now.

[02:45:27]You won't have a sinful nature in heaven. That's why you can't sin.

[02:45:31]So, can I can I maybe challenge that with the Bible itself?

[02:45:37]>> Go ahead.

[02:45:38]>> Because you did give me some Bible. You gave me some Bible when you said, um, we don't know what we're going to be, we're going to be like him. So, we're going to have a new body. We're going to be like him. Those who end up in in this new, uh, new place. Um, and maybe you you miss mix some Bible in there. You know, you talk about Revelation 21, this new place. Um, he's going to wipe away tears from their eyes. There will be no death, no mourning, no crying, no pain. Maybe you can get from there.

[02:46:05]>> If you take that there will be no pain.

[02:46:09]Maybe you can take that there'll be no sin there because sin is a lot of times the cause of pain, but there could be pain without sin. Um, but there's some other Bible that I don't know if you're adding into this. Let me ask you this question. You're you're a redeemed sinner, right? Which means you have do you have a new heart?

[02:46:30]Absolutely, man.

[02:46:32]>> Um, and do you have God's spirit dwelling within you?

[02:46:35]>> Yep.

[02:46:37]>> So then something's wrong because in the Old Testament, what's going to help the people of God become sinless?

[02:46:48]What's going to put them in this new Jerusalem? What's going to put them in this new place where there's no sin? is God's going to put his spirit within them and give them a new heart and cause them to walk in his ways.

[02:47:02]>> But that doesn't say anything about having to wait until heaven for that to happen. That's going to happen when God um restores Israel and puts within them a new spirit, his spirit, and a new heart. So if you've got a new spirit, his spirit, and a new heart, then what you're saying is that passage in uh what is it? Ezekiel, that passage is fulfilled. It's about the new covenant.

[02:47:26]You believe you're under the new covenant, right?

[02:47:29]>> So, the Bible, the Old Testament says in that new covenant, you're going to be sinless because he's going to put his laws within your heart, put his spirit in you, and cause you to walk in his ways. If you've got a new >> I'll finish with this point. If you've got a new spirit, his spirit within you and a new heart according to the Old Testament to Ezekiel, that is what allows you to be sinless. That is the new Jerusalem. That is the So, so I'm not sure why there has to be this waiting till you get a a a glorified body. Ezekiel didn't say anything about a glorified body.

[02:48:07]Mhm.

[02:48:09]>> So, I'm pretty sure that passage is is describing the new covenant. Um I'd have to go and and look it up, you know. Um but but I'm pretty sure it's not describing like um heaven, right? I think it's describing um the new covenant. And so, but I don't think that that >> it is.

[02:48:28]>> Uhhuh.

[02:48:28]>> It is. It is in Israel. I'm sorry to cut you off, but I need you to >> factor this in. I think it's Isaiah 65 >> that talks about um um what does it say?

[02:48:40]I think it's Isaiah 65 that talks about >> um death being ah what's the passage some of y'all know in the chat. I talked about it on the podcast a long time ago. Um, I don't even know what to type in to get this up, but there's a passage in Isaiah, I think it's Isaiah 65, um, where it talks about the new heaven. Oh, yeah. It's a new heaven and new earth passage. I'm sorry. Let me find it.

[02:49:09]>> Oh, okay. Okay.

[02:49:10]>> Yeah. You know, sometimes scripture there's I think there's passage in in passages in the Bible where I think that it's almost like it's describing two different um time frames, but it doesn't never say like, hey, we're going to skip from from from now to like the future, you know. I think I think that there are instances in but I'm not sure. I have I'd have to look at it yet.

[02:49:35]>> No, look, what you just said is so key.

[02:49:38]Oh, I wish you could I wish you could see it from the other side. You said I mean you're right there. The Bible talks about the same events and says different things about the event, things that are contrary.

[02:49:50]And the best the Christian can do is say, "Oh, it must be talking about two different time frames when really it's not talking about two different time frames. It's talking about this author had one view of the event.

[02:50:06]this other author had a different view of the event. And a lot of times the reason why the second author has a different view is because the first author's idea didn't it didn't pan out.

[02:50:18]It was a prophecy and it never came to pass. And so the prophecy gets reinterpreted in this new way and it leaves Christians saying, "Oh, well, I guess it happens twice."

[02:50:29]>> Like is it it happened in two different time frames?

[02:50:32]>> Was it Paul that talked about it? Is that is that what you're referring to by the by the uh re uh reinterpretation?

[02:50:40]>> Did did did did Paul mention it?

[02:50:42]>> It sound if I'm not mistaken I feel like Paul uh quoted that passage and was you know talking about you know the regeneration and you know what I mean?

[02:50:53]Um >> I wish I had this under my belt so I wouldn't have to to skim >> use chat GPT bro.

[02:51:02]I mean, you can see I never like using the chat for this kind of stuff.

[02:51:07]>> Okay.

[02:51:09]>> All right. So, let's go a pretty pretty sharp.

[02:51:11]>> Yeah, I know. I know.

[02:51:13]>> Isaiah 65:17, right? Isaiah 65:17 >> says, let me just check the chat to see if anybody in the chat tried to help me out because some of y'all might have known I what I was talking about.

[02:51:24]>> I think if Michael Apple was still here, he probably would have would have shouted that out. All right, so Isaiah 65:17.

[02:51:31]This is the Lord speaking here.

[02:51:34]>> See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

[02:51:44]Where do you find that at in the New Testament?

[02:51:49]>> Do you know off hand?

[02:51:50]>> Uh, sounds like Revelation.

[02:51:53]>> Revelation 21. Same words. Former things have passed away. Um, and then it says, um, verse 20, look at verse 20. I just started at verse 17. I'm going to skip skip down to verse 20, unless you want me to read the stuff in between. They're not >> significant for Okay, verse 20 says, >> in this new heaven and new earth, here's what's going to happen.

[02:52:19]Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his years.

[02:52:28]The one who dies at 100 will be thought a mere child. The one who fails to reach 100 will be considered a cursed.

[02:52:39]>> So this passage says in the new heaven and new earth, guess what? You're still going to have death.

[02:52:46]>> Okay. So yeah, >> you you get to Revelation, >> is that talking about the the thousand-y year reign of Christ? Is is that is that a correlation?

[02:52:56]>> All the things the Christian has to do to make sense of, well, damn, in this passage, the new heaven and new earth, people are still dying.

[02:53:04]>> In the Revelation passage, no mourning, no death, nothing. So, is it two new heavens and new earths? Or does the New Testament author have a completely different idea of what Isaiah was talking about?

[02:53:17]>> Well, I don't I don't think that I don't think that scripture contradicts itself in all honesty. I know some people see contradictions, but I think that we have to, you know, really study and search it to to to to see where to get understanding, right?

[02:53:33]And so, but uh but yeah, it sound it sounds like that passage is talking about the the thousand-y year reign of Christ. Now, esquetology is not my strongest uh it's not my strongest uh point, right? But but um but yeah, cuz even even Christians don't agree with esquetology. There's some people that think Christ comes before the tribulation, some think mid-tribulation, some think post-tribulation.

[02:53:56]>> That's another reason that should make you say, "Man, something's wrong with this thing." Like, how come something that's as important as the Lord's return, >> we don't have any kind of consensus on here?

[02:54:09]>> Hey, somebody just put something in the chat that >> Yeah. Yeah.

[02:54:13]>> Is God flawed, though? That's the question. Somebody just put something in the chat that I probably need to pay attention to. James P said, "Yo, if if you bang out while you're driving talking to me, that's not a good look legally. Not a good look for you. So, I probably should let you go and finish driving and not be talking while you're while you're driving right now. I would love to continue this conversation, though. When you get a chance, look at Isaiah 65 and then compare that to Revelation 21 and just ask yourself like, what what's going on here? And let's let's try it again.

[02:54:43]>> Yeah, my bad. So, I try not to look at the screen and when I do look at the screen, I do try to make sure I'm at a stoplight. But but yeah, you're you're you're right. You know, I saw you talking with another guy when he was driving. You know what I mean? But >> I didn't even think about it until James P just mentioned it. That's that's a >> Yeah, I think what's important is for me to to Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. It's all good. Thanks a lot, man.

[02:55:04]>> Yeah. I'm on here Mondays and Tuesdays, bro. Call back anytime.

[02:55:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Have a bless on that.

[02:55:10]>> Get with you.

[02:55:14]>> Hey, James, thank you for that. I didn't even It didn't even cross my mind, but you're 100% right. Um, and it's not even really that somebody could hold me liable, even though they might. I don't know. I have to look into that. It's just probably not a wise thing to do just from a, you know, a human to human standpoint to have somebody driving and possibly being distracted. So, um, hey, but we did close to three hours. It's after 7, so unless somebody else is going to call right now, I'm going to dip and go and enjoy my evening. I hope you all do the same.

[02:55:46]Um, matter of fact, let me go before somebody calls. But, uh, before I do go, if you don't mind, I would like to give a shout out to some people. And I think you know who I'm talking about. All these folks right here, if your name is on the screen, your name is in my heart.

[02:56:01]Thank you for supporting Kapod. Uh, if you're not a Patreon supporter, look in the description of the video. You can join the Patreon. $5, $10 a month, whatever you do. I appreciate that. Some folks give uh even more than that. And I'm entirely thankful to you all for rocking with the channel. And like I said, Tuesday, tomorrow night, I will be back on. I'm not going to do call-ins tomorrow. Uh I'm going to come back on tomorrow night and me and Joshua Cwell are going to be responding to LRAE and God logic um supposedly responding to um skeptics. All right, so y'all have a good one. I'll talk to you'all next time. Love you guys. Space.