Nonbelief is Not a Choice: MIS w/ SeanJamesP

[00:00:01][music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. N.

[00:00:30][music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Hey everybody, welcome to Mis Interpretations. This is my virtual campfire and today we have Sean.

[00:01:18]>> How you doing everybody?

[00:01:20]>> Thank you for coming tonight. I appreciate you being here. Um will you just give us a little tell us who who you are like where where we find you on the interwebs?

[00:01:32]>> Okay. Sure. Um I debate uh theology um atheism, theism, Christianity, various different religions on there's this small corner of Tik Tok uh lives where um I linked up with a gentleman named John Conn who wrote a book about belief.

[00:01:54]Um I took an interest in theology when I began questioning my faith um several years ago. Um I grew up um as a Christian um from age 9 to 11 I lived with 7th day Adventist family members who were very fundamentalist and had me um staunchly um believing in you know as a child in 7th day Adventism and uh even to the point to where they had me convinced if you play rock music backwards they're satanic music and um they didn't 7th Day Adventists uh fundamentalists like as as they are didn't eat meat or wear makeup or what have you. And we lived in a small town called Anguin um in California. It's a 7th Day Adventist town. The male doesn't come on Saturday.

[00:02:47]Normally the mail doesn't come on Sunday. Um 7th Day Adventists go to church on Saturday. That's why. Um but anyway, I I maintained my Christian faith. um when I moved out of you know away from them in a more secular environment. So I was less fundamentalist, but I still like considered myself a Christian. Would go to church once in a while, been to lots of different churches. But um into adulthood um all the way back through childhood um even when I lived with them, I would have doubts creep into my mind. Um and they had me convinced that when those doubts come, that's Satan talking to you. And so even as even as you know at 9 10 11 years old as a believer a staunch believer um these doubts would creep in and I would like I would feel guilty about it that um like no no don't think about that don't think about that. So the fear of hell kind of became a thought stopper.

[00:03:51]Um but well into adulthood um I finally came to a point it was I'm in the US Army so it was my second deployment to to Iraq. We were in Baghdad and uh I I I kind of had an epiphany because we'd hear the call to prayer five times a day and everyone around me there's Christians in Iraq for sure but most people all around us were Muslim >> right? And then it dawned on me that, you know, if you were born in, if I was born and raised in Iraq, there's a strong likelihood I would have ended up being Muslim instead of Christian. I thought about the world where, like in Thailand, people are mostly Buddhist and, you know, if you go to India, lots of Hindus and and and Sikhs and, you know, what have you. So, people are just kind of believing what they're born into. And I I wanted to know the truth.

[00:04:45]And I also wanted to continue believing >> and I tried to so I but I allowed myself I dared myself to like let me actually explore these things and I started talking with a friend of mine about it who was a non-believer and Christianity fell away pretty quickly when he started pointing out well think about Noah's flood think about Tower of Babel and I hadn't been living in a religious fundamentalist environment you know for a long time I hadn't actually thought about those old stories.

[00:05:17]>> When I thought about them, I was like, "These are pretty ridiculous."

[00:05:21]>> And so, Christianity fell away pretty quickly.

[00:05:24]>> Um, but I still believed and I really wanted there to be some type of like creator God. Um, mostly because I think life is too short and I, you know, I would like things to continue on. I don't like the idea that inevitably, you know, non-existence, it's like before you're born. And a lot of people are like, "Hey, that doesn't sound too bad."

[00:05:46]Um, but just the the loss of like the sense of loss is like, you know, it's a lot to deal with, but I'd rather deal with reality on reality's terms. So, um, I started questioning things further and that sort of led me, I don't know how I was led to like a show called The Atheist Experience, but I started listening to them >> and I was like, "This makes a lot of sense." And then I began to realize I don't have a good reason to believe in just vanilla theism, which is kind of where I was at. And then um I still had a residual fear of hell >> that was uh left behind. And that's very very common for people who have deconstructed.

[00:06:28]Um it's almost normal. Um >> yeah.

[00:06:33]So, um, but what got me over that residual feel of fear of hell is I had an epiphany.

[00:06:40]I tried to continue believing and I just couldn't. And I thought about belief in in that um, you know, can I make myself believe this or that? Like I started testing mentally like whether belief is even a choice. And I quickly realized it was became obvious it's not even a choice. And if there is a good God, he's not going to punish people for not being convinced he exists. Especially when if he's all powerful, he could just convince everybody. It would be trivially easy, >> right?

[00:07:10]>> Um and so if there is a good God, he's not going to punish me for non-belief.

[00:07:15]And if there's a bad god, we're all screwed anyway. So that that got me over the fear of hell.

[00:07:21]>> Yeah. and different people. There's different um perspectives that help different people, but that's what worked for me.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. I um I'll tell you uh what I thought what I thought about help in just a second because I have we have a couple of friends who want to say hi. So um uh >> let's see. OddMod is actually K. So K is here to say and saying hi. Sean, good to see you. Good to see you, too. And uh Gordon, Oops. This is There is a It It moves sometimes. Pasta Fair is here. And hello, y'all. It's good to see you. And Gordon loves science.

[00:08:05]>> Oh, Gord Gordon. How you doing, buddy?

[00:08:07]>> Yeah. So, these are some folks um over from that I see in the chat uh in your chat uh when you're talking with with John. So, say hi. Hey guys.

[00:08:18]>> Hey guys. appreciate this the support. I didn't expect to see you here. That's great.

[00:08:23]>> Yeah, I put in a note to Tracy in the uh in the Discord saying, "Hey, Sean's gonna be on." And since John's not on this week, um that's the other uh other thing. You might you might want to advertise this. So, yeah.

[00:08:36]>> Oh, sure. Sure.

[00:08:37]>> So, Tracy put up a note and um uh John Cohen was on with me a while back. I can't I I don't understand time. Time does not work for me. So anyway, but this is where you can find it. And you guys usually are on uh like Tuesday during the day, Thursday evening, and Saturday evening, right?

[00:08:58]>> That's that's correct. Um Thursday and Saturday. Now, sometimes it flexes, and this week he's um he's going to try to do one before Monday, but it's possible he won't. He's on a trip.

[00:09:10]>> Um so he may do one kind of an off day one on Monday. Um but he's going to try to squeeze one in. So, but but the normal schedule is >> uh Thursday and Saturday evenings, 5:00 p.m. Eastern time, >> and then starting at 10:00 a.m.

[00:09:27]>> uh Eastern time on Tuesday. And he's a machine. Um we'll run we'll run six Yeah. 6 to 8 hours and zero bathroom breaks on his part and like four or five bathroom breaks on my part.

[00:09:40]>> Honestly, he could be a public school teacher because uh that was a thing.

[00:09:45]like you had [laughter] had to like figure out how quickly between which bells you could actually go if you could right to the restroom.

[00:09:56]So it was and my daughter's here. Hello Meg. Yay. Good to see you.

[00:10:01]>> Hello Meg. [laughter] >> This is Sean.

[00:10:04]>> Yeah. And of course Tommy. All right.

[00:10:08]Human Tommy. So yeah. So, uh, yeah, what I was going to say about hell is that, um, I I I deconstructed, and people who've been here a while, they know this about me, but I deconstructed a long time before I deconverted. And so like I uh just but when as I learned more and more about theology and that kind of thing, I I got to where well, you know, it's a loving God, you know, that's what I focused on more. But I didn't really read the Hebrew scriptures at all, right? I just couldn't I couldn't get through. So I just basically ignored them. That was basically how I could stay a Christian, I think, for so long. But um but I but I just got to the point where I was like, I just don't even believe in hell. I just can't I just I I quit believing in hell before I quit believing in God.

[00:10:58]>> Oh, interesting.

[00:10:59]>> I quit believing in the devil as well because I was like that's just a crazy thing. Like that's just so dumb. Like if God is in control, you know what what good is this? And also uh I I would say with tongue and cheek. It was like, well, what other way to like really piss off the devil by just ignoring him and pretending he doesn't exist? You know, that would probably make him really >> That's an interesting [laughter] Yeah.

[00:11:23]So, uh, yeah, it's funny how how our brains find ways to to manage manage some of this, you know.

[00:11:31]>> Yeah. and and there there does seem to be um >> whenever so John and I will debate um the the Thursday and uh basically the regular schedules uh that that I mentioned are debate our debate shows where um it used to be we would take friendlies and uh it would be like twothirds friendly at least or threequarters friendly and then you know um part of it's like the the hard-nosed debate back and forth worth jousting that is very popular. Um but now it like the regular streams are all debate and opposition only. Um I forgot to mention every other Friday he has unconvinced after hours which is where all the friendlies can come in. You could talk about anything theology chess. The only thing we don't have on there is debate because we have that dedicated to all the other spots. So it's just all the all the friendlies can come in.

[00:12:29]>> Yeah. Um but the way it came >> because it builds community, you know.

[00:12:32]That's good.

[00:12:33]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Um that's the other thing that's I wanted important I wanted to talk about what um ended up being built with with John. I ran across him and the way I linked up with him because I had been I thought I was the lone crusader who was pushing the narrative there. There was all these arguments against God, problem of evil, all these arguments for God, and all the debate space going back and forth. And I was I was a big part of that. But I thought that um atheists were really missing out on the argument that belief isn't a choice, which takes the belief-based salvation, like the cornerstone of Christian and Muslim doctrine, um and and it just like throws it completely out the window. The fact that belief isn't a choice, it's nonsensical at that point. And I kept beating that drum and I thought I was the only one doing it. like, "Guys, we got to keep talking about this." And then I came across on Tik Tok, John's Live, where he was promoting his book. And that's how he and I linked up is because I came up as a guest and I'm like, "Finally, someone else." Yes. And then I was telling him like my thoughts on it. He's like, "Oh yeah, that's this chapter in my book." And I give him another thought and he's oh yeah, that's chapter eight.

[00:13:52]And um >> Yeah. So uh he and I just [laughter] >> You were quoting his book to him without knowing about it, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:01]Yeah. Exactly. And uh we just um our the way we think about things were just so aligned that one day he asked me to um >> uh co-host for a show and I ended up, you know, doing it and I I've been doing it ever since. Whenever I can. Sometimes work gets in the way or something else gets in the way or what have you.

[00:14:21]>> Work. What? Okay. Yeah.

[00:14:24]>> Yeah. No. Well, that's Tommy. Human Tommy. The reason he's the human Tommy is because uh he has he has a channel.

[00:14:33]His show is tomorrow night. Y'all watch it. Uh if you've got it up, Tommy, I'll put a a link to it. But uh the humanity is his channel. But he said, "Yeah, doc doxastic involuntarism is a bitch."

[00:14:47]>> Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> So that's Yeah. And um somebody else is saying something, but um yeah. So, so basically the way John used to do his show on Tik Tok was he just he just he brought guests up whether they were friendly or or debating or like did he do the way the way he's doing his debates now? Like how did how did he start out with that?

[00:15:15]Um he he was mostly promoting his book and then he would just um the topic had to do with um belief in doxastic and volunteerism or what have you. And then pretty much anyone who is sort of in the realm of belief or faith or what have you that had something to say um you know he would just talk about it and later on we would just talk about it when I was going on with him. But um a really important thing started happening is that um a big thing he was pushing was legitimizing non-belief. And I think that that's so important. And the the way he worded that legitimizing non-belief, I'm like, "Yes, that's it.

[00:15:59]That's it right there." Um because so many people when they stop believing, they are treated like and told that they are bad. Um, and it's not something that anyone can can choose. Like nobody chose to be an atheist. And that sounds weird to say that, but uh so many of us fought against um non-belief like wanted to continue believing and we just couldn't.

[00:16:28]Like I did not choose to be an atheist.

[00:16:30]I just became one. Um, >> it's kind of why I chose the title for this because, you know, we're like belief is not a choice, but non-belief is not a choice, right? It's like people people a lot of people leave kicking and screaming like they're like, I don't want to not believe. Yeah.

[00:16:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And so what happened was because he was legitimizing non-belief, so many um former believers resonated with that and said, "That's right." like it's it's legitimate and it doesn't make me bad and thank you for like speaking out on that and it sort of it grew into a deconstruction community.

[00:17:12]um is now this on the Tik Tok side you can private message people, you can make certain chat groups like you would in text message like add like whoever you want to add and now this is our own little like chat group or what have you and so it was real real easy to form a community.

[00:17:30]>> Um but then he branched out to YouTube and I don't think YouTube has that so much. Um, and so, >> um, a couple of the guys on YouTube started a Discord.

[00:17:42]>> Um, and then, and so I guess I I should I I'll been remiss. I haven't like spent like barely any time on Discord. Um, but, um, yeah. So, there's a big Discord community that's doing great things, guys. Sorry I've been absent. I I'll start showing up a little bit more to Discord as well.

[00:18:01]>> I wonder if do a link. I don't know. I I was just wondering if I could do a link to it, but I don't. Uh I don't know.

[00:18:13]Uh I will figure that out. I'll figure that out.

[00:18:15]>> Okay.

[00:18:15]>> Um but yeah, so John just started what uh a few months ago really uh doing the the lives on YouTube. And it's okay that he's got thousands and thousands of followers. It's all right. I'm not I'm not jealous at all. But anyway, no, he's doing great. He's really awesome.

[00:18:37][laughter] >> I'm sure he is. Yeah, he's >> he's been growing and it's I I couldn't be happier for him.

[00:18:43]>> Yeah, it's awesome. And and I I mean, I like listening to you guys because Well, it does get spicy sometimes, right? Um but but for the most part, you know, it's it's like >> lots of civil conversations. Um, but it does it does get a little bit crazy sometimes. So, I know that's >> Yeah, we'll we will tend to match the energy of the interlocutor that that we are disagreeing with. Um, if somebody's being genuine and answering questions directly and we hold ourselves to that standard where we will answer all questions directly including including closedended yes or no questions. It's a pet peeve of mine. You know, sometimes I get a little too aggressive and there's some feedback like Sean, let him talk, you know. Um, but Oh, >> yeah. It's just a pet peeve of mine.

[00:19:37]Like I I will give you the respect of like answering all questions directly because here's the thing. If I'm wrong about something, I genuinely want to know, right?

[00:19:45]>> So, someone's going to use a Socratic method on me and question me, I'm going to give direct answers. And if if answering questions causes my position to fall, it deserved to fall and and you know the same is true in reverse. So um but uh we we tend to keep things respectful and I I try to always remember that the person on the other side is a human being. Um I was once a believer myself and so I I try to put myself in their shoes and um when I can when I can reach them I sometimes it'll be like hey look I understand why you still believe this or why you think that way I was the same way and then I can sort of you know interject that and relate to the person and then explain to them you know why I disagree with them on that thing.

[00:20:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It it it's act.

[00:20:43]If you guys haven't seen it, please go please go watch it. I'll I'll put I'll try to put links as well in there. Um I don't have a mod, Tommy. I need I don't have a mod here. I got I know. I know why. It's cuz uh Mark's on. It's okay.

[00:21:01]>> Is there some disruption going on? You need a mod?

[00:21:04]>> I need to No, not at all. But I need I need a mod. Um because uh because Ember is not here. She's probably with anyway.

[00:21:13]I don't have very many and then I forget how to do it and people have to tell me.

[00:21:17]So anyway, [laughter] I have to figure I have to figure that out. Um but we'll keep going. Okay. So, um uh what how how old were you when you had this um like bad Baghdad experience? Like how long ago? You don't have to tell me how old it, but how long ago was that for you that it was like wait a minute >> when I had the epiphany?

[00:21:51]>> Yeah.

[00:21:53]>> Okay. Um, I would say, let me think. It was I'm 52 now. I'm getting really old. Um, this was around the 2008 through 2009 time frame. Um, yeah, it it was during my second deployment to Iraq.

[00:22:15]>> Okay. um you know just sitting around on duty at one point um and just having you know there sometimes you have deep conversations or you know sometimes there are silly conversations everything in between but um it was one of those deep conversations and it got me to thinking >> and yeah I just finally dared myself like all these years I would have these doubts cuz I always have a curious mind when I was a kid. I used to drive people crazy asking questions. Why is the sky blue? Why does wind blow? What color are French fries? My mother told me I asked her that one time and she couldn't answer the question. Like, I don't know what color like >> anyway. Um, so my curious mind would be like, well, what if this isn't true? Or what if and then like um it's a thought stopper. I don't think Pascal's wager is like, you know, the threat of hell is very effective in getting people to believe, but I think it is very effective in keeping people believing because belief isn't a choice.

[00:23:22]So, you can't scare people into believing, but what you can do is scare people into preventing themselves from thinking about um whether they're actually wrong. So the the things you can you can't just choose like I want to believe this. But what you can do is choose what you're going to ponder, what you're going to open your mind to, what information you're going to expose yourself to or what have you. You can choose to stop thinking about a thing at least to a point. And so I think hell is very effective in keeping people >> in in their belief. I don't think it's I don't think it's a very effective means to get people to believe. So basically bring them in with love and invitation.

[00:24:11]Oh, join our loving church and our loving whatever that gets them in. Now the threat of hell will keep them in.

[00:24:20]>> Yeah.

[00:24:21]Yeah. uh the and the I think along with that what kind of what we were talking about before as far as deconstruction is uh what posary is saying here the ostracizing behavior is common to all the Abrahamic religions >> there's the the threat of losing community and >> and you know it's it Yeah. So that's the uh that's that's also I think a really strong deterrent for changing or >> Yeah.

[00:25:02]>> thinking too much.

[00:25:03]>> Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:06]>> Yeah.

[00:25:07]>> Yeah. There. Yeah. No, I I totally agree with that as well. It's not just the threat the threat of hell, the there's the the pressure and you know what you can lose if you stop believing all all of those things. And >> that's why, you know, if you're a believer and you dare to question, even if you continue believing, if you dare to question with an open mind, um I applaud your courage and um if you allow yourself to be v your belief to be vulnerable and to open yourself up to the possibility that you're wrong.

[00:25:41]>> Yeah.

[00:25:41]>> Um that that's that's a good thing. Um, it's an intellectually honest thing to do and and it can be depending on your circumstances a brave thing to do. Well, I think uh it's interesting. Uh I the first time I call I did call in uh to your show to your show uh at one point and and like and it's still a question and I I've just never really been satisfied with the answers.

[00:26:11]But um like one of the reactions that I've gotten is well you just you just want to be your own God, >> you know, you know, you just want to tell you just want to tell God what God ought to be, you know, and like So what do you say? You I'm sure you get that when you have callins.

[00:26:29]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um the whole be your own god thing is is pretty ridiculous. And I I I try to use the most normative definitions of words to help facilitate like communication. By no stretch of any normative definition could I ever be construed as a god. So then the question means are if you're saying that metaphorically, what do you mean by that? If you mean um come come up with my own um moral system um and take an ownership of my morality. Abso freakingutely. Um to me that's vastly superior than outsourcing my morality to some deity. I don't care if it's Thor, Shiva, Yahweh, name insert god X into here.

[00:27:22]There's I am not going to give up part of what makes us human, our humanity, which is our values. Um to to whatever this God says, I'm just going to take as moral and immoral. And I I I no longer have my own morality. I'm just outsourcing my morality to to this deity over here. Um I think that's a terrible way to to live and to think about behavior. Um >> yeah. So yeah, I'm totally I'm I'm totally if if you if that's what you mean by be your own God, then so be it.

[00:27:56]Um the the alternative is if God says to unal alive all of the Amalachites, including men, women, children, babies, oxen, sheep, and animals. And you know that I have to say that's good. And I I reject that. Um, I'm not going to put myself in a position where the only thing stopping me from being ISIS is one perceived revelation. Um, because what God says goes and I have to accept it as good no matter what it is. Um, no, I'm I'm going to keep my humanity. Thank you very much.

[00:28:34]>> Well, I think some of the push back on that is, well, no, that's just, you know, the story the book was written like for more liberal Christians, right?

[00:28:44]the book was written by humans and that's you know that's the that's not really what God is like you know even though it says God said to do this and God said to do that it's like well that's not that's not the part so and it's like but it says God said >> so right >> how do you know what God said and what God didn't say if you just you know it's just you don't you just throw out the parts you don't like I mean I did it I threw out the parts I didn't like I was like well that's not my God >> right and I still consider myself Christian, but I don't know how to respond to people who say that.

[00:29:19]>> Oh, who say that? Yeah. So, a couple of things uh on that.

[00:29:24]>> Yeah, because there's a number of apologetics for those types of passages.

[00:29:29]Um Oh, but that's the Old Testament.

[00:29:31]There's there's all kinds and I can go go through each each one. They're all bad.

[00:29:35]>> Yeah, go for it.

[00:29:37]>> Yeah, sure. But yeah, >> no, no, it's okay. So for what you said if they said cuz I I have heard that's that's a more rare response um at least from my experience but there are some Christians who do not take the Bible as being inherent.

[00:29:53]>> Um and so they'll just say like oh those parts in the Old Testament those aren't actually true. So the question is well you asked a very good one. So how are you deciding what is true and what what isn't true? because it seems like the parts that are problematic or give you the ick, those aren't true. But if they're good and they make you feel good, then they are true. At which point, you are just using your own morality to decide what to reject and what to accept. So, what do you need the Bible for anyway? Um, but but second, >> if you're going to hold to divine command theory, even if God didn't do any of the awful things that he's portrayed to do in the Bible, it is still a consequence of divine command theory that literally anything God says is good is good and whatever he says is bad is bad. And that would mean if God is a sadistic, cruel monster, then that would be considered good. It's just that is just a consequence of divine command theory. So the the question you have to ask yourself. So I'm a humanist. I evaluate how actions affect the well-being of others. If they help the well-being, they're good. If they harm the well-being, they're bad. If you genuinely value well the well-being of others, that why not just use that as a standard, >> right? And then if you don't, you're you're you have issues that to to work through. But >> yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that would be someone would might respond, well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course, because you know, God is love and and you know, Jesus loves us and and right Jesus, right? And so, yeah. So we would want to like So the moral system might not be so so different from what you're saying, right? Um, >> sure.

[00:31:55]>> They only want to see like the good the good parts, but it's it's the like trying to explain away the bad parts for me that that that cognitive dissonance.

[00:32:06]I just I just got exhausted trying to figure out how to how to respond. But I don't know when, you know, if people are are talking to me how how still how to deal with like, well, those things aren't, you know, and and Dan Mlullen talks about this. I'm going to ask him about this. Maybe I can ask maybe he can come on my show one day. I don't know. But, uh, about, you know, negotiating.

[00:32:30]>> That would be an amazing guest. I'd love that.

[00:32:32]>> Wouldn't that be awesome? Yeah, I would love I would. Okay. So, I I hope I'll see him at at at the American Academy of Religion. Maybe I can ask him then. But anyway, but but you know, he talks about negotiating with a text that we all negotiate >> with a text and like I negotiated myself right out the door. [laughter] >> Guess I just >> I didn't even Yeah. I didn't even know until I was an atheist. There's so many of the most awful verses I didn't even know about. Um but but that you know honestly there there were verses I did know about and believed that even though I you know I was a decent person but somehow there was this wall up to where it I didn't realize how awful it was just like Noah's flood there's no there is no atrocity in like the history of the world that even pales in comparison to um Noah's flood like literally drowning every kitten um puppy, baby, man, woman, child, like every >> all life on Earth like drowned and like it was such an awful way to go to like the entire planet that is so >> like I I don't want to bring up like you know yatsi specifics but like even those atrocities the scale of it is like not even a tiny fraction of of of that atrocity and that's one event. But the thing is, I learned this as a kid and it didn't even dawn on me. I loved animals, but it didn't dawn on me.

[00:34:05]>> Say, how did I not process that as a kid? Like thinking like, oh, this is awful. This is >> So, it's not just you. I'm sorry. It's not just me. You same thing.

[00:34:14]>> I was just going to ask that. I'm like, how did I not see this as a kid, right?

[00:34:19]Yeah.

[00:34:20]>> Yeah. And I look back and I'm like, how did I not see this? It's weird. It's almost like the the indoctrination inoculates you that if it's biblical.

[00:34:31]There's like a part of your brain that shuts off, you know, um >> that that sees those things and processes them as bad. And and I knew about like the Exodus and let my people go and the Pharaoh like, you know, unalivvening of the firstborns and you know.

[00:34:47]>> Yeah.

[00:34:47]>> Um and and that was there there was awful stuff in there too. So there was some awful things that I knew about, but somehow I was just immune to them. And it wasn't until as an atheist, I retrospectively looked back and like, why did I accept that crap?

[00:35:02]>> Yeah.

[00:35:03]>> And it's it's hard for me to understand from a psychological standpoint.

[00:35:08]>> Yeah. I mean, I I think part of it must be that it's just it's it just everybody around thinks it's normal, you know, so they react to it, >> right? And so it's like, oh, okay. And >> and I mean, I know at least like for the Noah's Arc story, you know, it's all cartoonish looking when it's the kids and then you know the animals, the animals, they came on by two seies. I don't know if you sang that song or not, but the Noah's arc song, you know, it's like a little little diddy about how, you know, God I didn't hear that song.

[00:35:45]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh >> yeah. So, I I can't remember all the words now. I have to go back and think about it. But it, you know, it's just like us, you know. Well, yeah. It it but that's that indo indoctrination from the beginning. But I Yeah, it it's but it's to be part of that group. I mean, I've talked about it with a couple of of folks, you know, like being being not part of the group is a really um uh words sometimes leave me. Um the being ostracized or being exiled for a human with the kind of history that we have in our brains, right? It's a very reptilian brain kind of thing. Like exile means that I'm gonna die, right?

[00:36:36]Because we're social species and we have to we have to have be part of the group.

[00:36:40]>> So being That's right.

[00:36:42]>> Yeah. So being, you know, sent out away from the group and being alone that means, you know, you're going to die. So So I I think it's one reason that like being a middle schooler is so hard. you know, being an adolescent, right, where you know, you have your in-groups and outroups and that that negotiation of social life is is happening. Um, and it can be really really hard, you know, for some people maybe not so hard and some people very very hard, especially if you're neurode divergent in any way. So, um, but like being left out, being shunned or whatever is really, really hard. And some some of the Christian cult cults, some of the Christian sects are a much worse at shunning people for not believing than than others. And I don't know as Seventh Day Adventists that way. I know, you know, more Mormons can be that way, but >> it's it's hard for me to get a perspective on the religion as a whole because um I was deep in it from like age 9 to 11. And then when I moved away from my great-grandmother and great aunt and I moved in with other family, I moved around a fair bit, but um they were the only 7th Day Adventists that I was living with and and sort of uh integrated with at the time. And so I don't have like the years and years through adulthood from an adult's perspective of 7th day Adventism to to really you know to really say on that.

[00:38:13]>> Okay.

[00:38:14]>> Um >> so so Christianity was you were indoctrinated in that but not necessarily all the tenants of of Seventh Day Advent. I I was indoctrinated in Seventh Day Adventism, but what happened is um because I was very strong about go to church on Saturday and don't eat meat and like all don't listen to rock music and all this and that. But when I moved away from them, I lived in um >> more secular households um or kind of light Christian households, not like the the the real fundamentalist uh sort of environments. I sort of morphed from se from staunch 7th day Adventism to more like non-denominational like vanilla Christian to where I was okay with going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday and and that sort of thing.

[00:39:05]>> Yeah.

[00:39:05]>> So so it kind of kind of morphed from there. So, it's hard it's hard for me to give you I can give you a child's perspective on being in in living in a 7th Day Adventist town, going to a 7th Day Adventist church with Seventh Day Adventist family and like what I went through, but it's hard for me to give like a proper evaluation of the religion as a whole because I I didn't get things from like an adult perspective.

[00:39:31]>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I was just curious about um about like you leaving your faith. Did that Did you have family members that had a problem with that? But yeah, you can tell me or not. It doesn't matter. But I just >> No, it's fine. Just um Yeah.

[00:39:53]>> No, I I didn't. Um I I was fortunate.

[00:39:56]Um, I've heard lots and lots of stories of um, families that have broken up, marriages that have broken up. Um, people have gotten ostracized, people have gotten socially called out by their church and like the whole thing. Um I was fortunate to where um I did go through a little bit of you know um like a sense of loss and it and it was not an easy transition for me. But my challenges were more internal like the idea of having to deal with my own mortality. Um and you know uh having to sort of lose the community aspect because it it used to be really easy. Um if I if I move to a new town with the military, what have you, go to a church and all of a sudden everybody showers you with love and you can meet all these people and you know that that whole that that easy >> sense of instant community and belonging >> um right >> you know is not there anymore. So there was a sense of you know some some loss but um fortunately my transition was much easier than some and I I feel for the people who have gone through that and um you know I'm I'm proud to be part of a community that's welcoming everybody who's who's been through that trauma and h has been through that and hopefully um the work we're doing can help them. I think it does. I really do. I mean, I just like the um uh uh what was the first It wasn't the line, it was the other show that you watched. Um >> Oh, the atheist experience.

[00:41:44]>> Experience. Yeah.

[00:41:45]>> Yeah. How much that kind of it just to have a different perspective, right? I think you know for for any of the folks that are doing um >> uh counter apologetics basically >> uh so much of it is for those who are questioning right and deconstructing and going oh wow that I hadn't thought of it that way and and you know even >> even kind of where I am and have studied religion but and also deconstructed and deconverted I'm still going well how do you answer how do you answer people who are like well I just don't believe that part of the Bible, right? I mean, it's it's it's just there's still always questions I think that that that come up that um I'm like, "Oh, wow. I hadn't heard that question that way and I hadn't heard response either." So, I think that's what's been really really like you say, there's a that bit of a niche that you and John fill um of about the basically the psychology of belief, right? Um the what like when he I guess both of you have like compared it like to you can't you can't uh decide what you think is funny and you can't decide what you think is scary, right?

[00:43:05]It just just something that that happens to you, right? So >> yeah.

[00:43:10]>> Yeah.

[00:43:11]>> No, no, that I know and and that those are great analogies that John likes to use. It's to expose people to the idea that some things about your psychology just are not choices. You know, um I'm afraid of heights and I'm no longer on jump status, but I used to jump out of planes while being afraid of heights. I just I volunteered for Airborne because I said, I'm not going to let fear stop me. I'm going to conquer my fear of heights. And you know what?

[00:43:41]>> I just kept having to jump and I never conquered my fear of heights. So every time I jump, you know, my heart would be going. And um but like I wish I could control that fear. And the thing is is like my intellectual brain knows that like a double malfunction is like rare and you know like I I'm probably I mean the injuries are common but the thing I was worried about is you know like ne neither my shoots opening and like you know uh but that's extremely rare but um sometimes your intellectual brain and your emotional brain are at odds with each other.

[00:44:16]>> Um >> well your Yes, actually that happens quite often. your intellectual brain or your emotional brain or at odds with each other, but like it's it's it's not normal to jump out of a plane.

[00:44:31]I mean, that's not a normal >> I'm climbing a tree. That's a normal thing. But but jumping out of a pl that's not [laughter] that's not a normal Of course, your brain would be going I don't I can't I can't imagine unless I know there are some people who are quite thrillsekers, but I just can't even.

[00:44:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> What the >> Yeah. To varying degrees, I think most people get nervous. Some some more than others. I was one of the on the more category, but um you know, I would still do it.

[00:45:02]>> Um >> yeah, >> but um yeah, >> there are a lot of people that are afraid of flying, and I'm not. I've never been afraid of flying. I mean, even in little tiny planes, you know, like >> and some people are afraid of deep water. I could be in the middle of the ocean right over the Mariana Trench as long as they're not like, you know, unsafe like waves, but like I can I can be in as deep a water as anything and I'm very comfortable in water, but I I just do not like heights.

[00:45:27]>> Yeah.

[00:45:28]>> Um >> I I don't want to scuba dive though. I don't like I don't I mean I guess it would I guess I could do it, but I just feel like having all of that mass above me is I don't like that. Little >> I like the idea.

[00:45:45]>> I I don't like that idea of having all of that. Yeah.

[00:45:49]>> Yeah. No, I No, I like the idea. And I I love snorkeling. I did I did like a five minute scuba thing when I was like 20some at Club Med, you know, where they just take the take you and let you scuba dive for five minutes and, you know, one at a time. And I loved it. But um >> yeah, >> but yeah, >> I'd rather fly.

[00:46:08]>> I think I'd rather jump out of a plane.

[00:46:10][laughter] Oh, then scuba. No, that's crazy.

[00:46:14]Snorkeling.

[00:46:14]>> I mean, see, see, everyone's see everyone see everyone's different. Um >> Yeah, exactly. But you can't help that, right? You can't help what bothers you.

[00:46:22]And uh and >> and it's [clears throat] like it's like that for belief, too. Some some things Yeah. Something that's um convincing to you might not be convincing to me. And everyone's mind works different. And that's um >> right, >> you know, C circling, you know, taking it back to like the analogy and and that's the way it is. You know, you may find something funny, someone else may may not find it funny. Um, you may find an argument convincing, someone else might not. And you, in either case, you can't choose that, >> right?

[00:46:57]>> And so, but yeah, so uh yeah, John's channel has grown uh quite a bit. Um, we've uh recently did a move to where it's it's opposition only and we're doing a getting opposition for a sometimes it can be challenging u a lot of other creators who are on the in the Tik Tok space looking for you know people you know to have those debates you know live on the air um are having a hard time finding opposition lately but uh John's been getting a steady string of them so there's plenty of people for us to argue with and and debate with.

[00:47:35]>> Yeah. The changing I I I wonder what that I wonder what that is. Do does anybody know like anybody have you talked to other um u counterpetics people about like because I know deconstruction zones sometimes they don't have you know there's lows right and there used to not be it's always a steady stream. It's kind of >> it's been a topic of discussion. Uh like um I I honestly don't know what it is.

[00:48:04]>> Um yeah, it seems to be something out there. I mean, there's still enough to go around and still have content and still have these discussions. I think the discussions are very important to have. Um and uh >> Okay.

[00:48:20]>> I'm sorry. I'm going to pause you.

[00:48:22]Gordon loves science agrees that the ocean is scarier than outer space. See, this is this is what we I have I have some support here in the chat. Wait, who was it? Oh, kinetic.

[00:48:34]Yeah, there's monsters in them waters, right?

[00:48:37]>> Well, we were talking about scuba versus uh jump jumping out of planes. Um but but he he is right. Um, when it comes to outer space, only a handful of people have been to the bottom of the Marriiana Trench because it's the pressure down there is something like 15,000 PSI, which is an insane amount of pressure.

[00:48:59]Every square inch, 15,000 lbs, right?

[00:49:02]>> Yes.

[00:49:02]>> Outer space, you just have to keep in 14.7 PSI. That's it.

[00:49:07]>> Um I mean, um, >> it's a lot easier to stay alive.

[00:49:12]>> Oh, yeah. Way more people have been to outer space than have been at the bottom of the Mariana Trench. And it's one of my dreams is to go to outer space. I watched a lot of Star Trek and I that I would love that.

[00:49:25]>> Yeah. You know, things have changed so much in the past 30 years. You never know. You might get a chance to I mean although if you had enough money you could, right? Couldn't you just pay to like Aren't they Aren't people >> Yeah. someone wants to donate >> several million. I I think it's I think it's ungodly expensive. But um >> honestly, if I had that kind of money just to splurge, I would I'm I would live a nice lifestyle, but I would get probably give most of it away.

[00:49:53]>> Well, after you go to outer space.

[00:49:56]>> Yes, after I go to outer space. We got to take care of that one. Miranda. So, so you and John have like really like similar thoughts and everything, but Miranda Rensberger and I have we share a brain and uh we and uh and she says, "I I wonder if pastors are telling their members not to debate the atheists online. There's too much risk of them being exposed to uncomfortable questions." I mean >> I mean Oh, but I like uh perspective.

[00:50:27]Maybe lack of interlocutors just means you're winning. Winning. [laughter] I mean, I don't know. I do know there's more there's a lot more just in the past year. There's a lot more um counter apologetics. Like I was scrolling through Tik Tok today on just some of the lives and just seeing, you know, a few a few more that are like um oh man, I can't think who's the I can't think of names right now, but I just I see a I see a lot more of um discussions and things. [clears throat] >> I'm seeing a lot more discussions and I love it um about belief not being a choice. Um the the thing that I that I had been really I'm not necessarily saying, you know, I have anything to do with it. Um I um but I have noticed uh since John and I have I've linked up with John um and we've been pushing this message whether it's attributed to if we're a part of it or not. I'm I'm just happy it's happening that more and more and more of the Tik Tok discussions Christians are being because they they'll say like you can believe whatever you choose and they'll get corrected and then there'll be a discussion about belief whether belief's a choice or not a choice and I think I love that that is that message is being pushed because I think it's so important.

[00:51:55]>> Yeah. I think I think it's fascinating though uh with some of those conversations, right? It's like it's like you can just feel the cognitive dis dissonance with some of the Christians that come in that are really genuinely trying to you know have this conversation and and like it's a point where almost they do become convinced that that belief is not a choice >> and then go right back into but you can choose Jesus or not and it's like wait a minute we just had this conversation you know, it's like it's such it's such an ingrained kind of thing like you know because that's how it's worded. That's how it you know like you know choose I you know I I I accepted right so that's a that's a action right I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior so you know we do choose our actions but >> but like to do that you have to be convinced first so it just it the language around it is often >> oh >> you can choose but it's not true >> there's there's every manner of dance around like um I cannot choose to like why does if you ask for example why doesn't God just convince me let me know that um he exists oh he doesn't want to vol he doesn't want to interfere with your free will and then you could use a socratic method if you convince me God exists did you violate my free will no okay if God convinces me God exists did he violate my free will Right.

[00:53:35]>> And then um well, it's it's it's your choice. Like he's not going to force you to have a relationship with him. That's not what I said. I didn't say force me to have a relationship. In order to have a relationship, I have to believe he exists.

[00:53:49]>> Right. And that that's where it starts.

[00:53:51]He could just show me he exists, then I could choose to have a relationship with him.

[00:53:56]>> Yeah.

[00:53:56]>> Um >> I think that was the first time I heard that was from you. um was was you know if you convince me that Jesus is risen you know is that interfering with my free will I was like whoa that's really that's an excellent question it's like of course >> right it's the same kind of thing right it's just just because and I think John talks about it like >> just knowing something just having knowledge that doesn't interfere with your your free will right just >> you know it's not like and and Like as a teacher, I think of that. I'm like, "Oh, just because I'm like teaching students about new stuff, you know, it's not I'm not forcing Yeah. I'm not forcing it on them. I'm just saying, "Here's new information." Right.

[00:54:43]>> Yeah. It's it's there's there's no other context where learning things um is portrayed as violating someone's free will. Even though there's doxastic and volunteerism like >> Yeah. Um, here you you now believe these sunglasses exist because I just showed them to you. Did I violate your free will? Of course not. Um, and an analogy that I often use, um, is that, you know, if God wants a relationship with everybody, like imagine if I had, you know, let's say I had a short relationship 20 years ago, had a son I didn't know about. She told her son, our son, oh, your father passed away, whatever. Listen, so we got a little story behind it. Um, if I want to have a relationship with my son, it's incumbent upon me to let him know at least I exist >> and he's not forced to have a relationship with me. But if I want to have a relationship with my long last son who thinks I'm I don't exist anymore. Hey, I'm your son. Here's the situation.

[00:55:52]I would like to have a relationship with you. And then he has his free will. He could say like, "No, I want nothing to do with you. You weren't in my life all this time." Okay, fine. Or, hey, I want to get to know you. But, you know, in no way is it a violation of free will. And it's like this sensible thing to do. If God wants a relationship with all of us who don't know he exists, >> it it just makes sense. Like, let us just come to us. Stop sending these Phil Bros on TikTok to try to make these bad arguments for you. Don't come let me know you exist.

[00:56:25]>> Yeah.

[00:56:26]>> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. About the Phil Bros.

[00:56:31]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:56:33]>> Yeah. So, uh tell us your experience with that. What is your uh because you you've actually studied some logic as well, right? you that's something that you've >> on a limited >> so I I've taken one logic class so I I don't want to falsely portray myself as like an academic when it comes to logic I took one logic class did very well in it um I but I took a logic class at a JC and I have just done some reading up and studying on my own but that's the that's the extent of it but I just like to think in in sort of analogical process. So, Phil bro is a term, I don't know if it's exclusive to Tik Tok, probably not. Um, I'm sure they use it on YouTube, but it's very common on Tik Tok. It's these adolescent almost always exclusively men who study um they'll read up on philosophical jargon or a philosophical arguments and there's a pace to it and then sort of a some rhetoric that goes along with it and they'll just use a lot of just throw a philosophical jargon a million miles an hour instead of like trying to actually be understood >> interrupt and interrupt and interrupt and interrupt. Oh my gosh. And then like [clears throat] and then if you if you give a retort like what's a modality for that? Go ahead. And then like um they're it's just um yeah they're not trying to have like a real conversation. They've practiced philosophical rhetoric.

[00:58:07]They're trying not to be understood.

[00:58:11]>> Um >> and if your ideas >> they just want to win or the appearance that's just >> 100%.

[00:58:17]>> Yeah. So if you have if you have bad ideas or ideas that you don't want to actually be challenged, communicate them in a very word salad way >> to where the vast majority of people aren't going to understand it and your interlocutor, the person that you're engaging won't be able to follow and go at a rapid pace and um and so your ideas won't get challenged because you're going to be stuck bogging down. Okay, what do you mean by this word? What do you mean by this word? Um, but if your ideas are on solid ground and you feel confident in them, you're going to want to communicate them in a way that is easily understood by the ma, which you can, anyone can do. Communicate them in a way that's easily understood by the masses so that they can hear, you know, and your interlocutor can understand and then you can actually have an engaging conversation.

[00:59:07]>> But that's not the goal though. I mean that you can just write Tommy says not be not being understood is key to a great conversation.

[00:59:15]>> [laughter] >> I mean, he's he's a little facicious sometimes. So, but yeah, it's the it's that that's that's why I'm like I don't even know sometimes if it's worth engaging, right? Because it's like you just you're not here you're not here to have an honest conversation, you know? You're just here to try to win or try to like >> Yeah. I mean, we just we just call them out on it and and we'll just tell them.

[00:59:43]Some sometimes I'll understand them, but I'll know most of the audience won't.

[00:59:47]And sometimes I don't understand them.

[00:59:50]And um when they come on, it's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down.

[00:59:55]All right. Listen, this isn't a philosophy class. Most of the people listening here didn't understand what the freak you were saying.

[01:00:02]>> Yeah.

[01:00:02]>> So, let's slow down. Let's use less jargon. And you know then they start getting tripped up when they actually have to communicate the concepts and have the concepts understood and then you start questioning on on them on their um premises and and such.

[01:00:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that happen it happens with the with the philosophy and it happens with the physics because that it's the same kind of thing where they'll they'll throw all this stuff out there and then it's like I saw um uh one of your recent shows where um oh starts with a V. Who's the physicist guy that has come in? Some very >> Oh, there's a guy named Various I brought up once or twice who's a he's a master's in physics and he works in the in I think he does he work for a a a particle collider. Uh I don't remember where like he works in the in physics. I don't remember specifically doing what.

[01:01:00]>> Yeah.

[01:01:00]>> Um I don't know if that's who you're referring to.

[01:01:02]>> Yeah, that's it. Various. And then of course Dr. dig when uh when they start talking anything about bi biology. She's amazing. She's amazing. But >> but yeah. Yeah, that's what I that's it.

[01:01:13]Emmer was just going to say they like uh uh some of the science topics and they'll just go on, you know, just like ramble on and and and then and I want to call in sometimes when that's happening because I'm just like that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works, [laughter] you know. Um but yeah, when when they really don't understand, that's one of the things that I you might uh see on some of my um uh when I have physicists on like I really want to try and help people understand more about about physics. um especially the quantum physics because >> it can be so misused >> in this in this area right that people are like oh this is the way you know because quantum physics tells us d and I'm like well it might tell you that but that's not what it tells me [laughter] >> right so being is >> and and here's and here's what happens some of these people will make the mistake of calling into people who are like actual experts in the field some people like Dr. blitz when these guys the first the second law of thermodynamics proves that there you know somehow tries to argue that it proves that there's a god >> they just they just get dominated um same thing when people try to debunk evolution and they call people like forest valky they just get wrecked every I mean it's not even close >> but what they but what they will do is >> as a lay person call another lay person someone like myself where I'm going to be honest about the things I don't know.

[01:02:59]Um, and they're going to confidently make all these proclamations about physics or biology and things of that.

[01:03:06]And there's some things as a lay person I do know that I'll talk about, but I'm, you know, it's this weird situ sort of like it's creating this equality because they're going to confidently make all these assertions that they can't back and don't actually know. And then I'm going to be honest about the things I know or don't know. And like, look, I'm not an expert. Why aren't why are you not writing up a paper and submitting it for peer review? Because the scientific community is in on it. There's this big conspiracy to be against God and you know, the whole thing. And >> um >> Yeah. Because the scientists don't want to know the truth about anything, right?

[01:03:42]>> Yeah. No, exactly. Right. Like it's not just one or two. It's like all the scientists all over the world are like just writing textbooks about things that they know aren't true or >> um anyway it's just ridiculous. But that's why it's so >> it's so helpful when we have people like Dr. Dig, Scientific Snitch, various or you know people who are >> snitch.

[01:04:04]>> Yeah. people who are formally educated in it because >> um then I could just sit back and eat popcorn and just, you know, enjoy the show and with somebody who knows what they're talking about.

[01:04:18]>> Right. Right.

[01:04:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. Miranda is like most of them don't even realize they're when they're getting destroyed by someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Yeah. That happens a lot. I mean, you know, when you just like what you're saying sometimes with Forest or some or Guts at Gibbit or somebody, you know, >> um that's responding to them. But better than Ember, she says, "Uh, I love the second law arguments. Most of the time they don't even know what the first law is because they're only interested in the bits they think make made their narrative look stronger." Yeah. And they don't know all of the second law either, like what the constraints are and everything on it. And John, what did he say? He asked one guest, "What's the zeroth law?" I'm like, "Yes, yes.

[01:05:03][laughter] What's the zeroth law?" And they're like, "What? What's the zeroth law of of thermodynamics?" So, I have a little a little physics in minutes book that I keep by my desk so that every now and then I'm like, "Okay, I'm just making sure I I remember everything." But yeah.

[01:05:19]Yeah. And then they they never understand entropy. Exactly.

[01:05:23]>> Exactly. like what you know they're like well things go to disorder so how can things become ordered and I I thought that as a 18-year-old you know I mean there was a time you know I I'm like oh there's got to be a god because you know things are becoming more ordered but then I learned more science [laughter] >> so yeah oh wait yeah this is true k scientists all work for Satan to keep us from the truth Sean, hadn't you heard?

[01:05:54]>> Oh, that's that's right. Well, Dr. Dig was once called what was it again?

[01:05:59]>> The this the um science witchwoman or something like that.

[01:06:05]>> All right. She was going to make a coffee cup or something. I got to go back and find that.

[01:06:09]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I'd buy that coffee cup. I'm just Yeah. Okay. I got to go back and find that. That was really funny. Yeah. Witchy sciencewoman or something like that. Really? It was It was a great moment. It was [laughter] Oh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The merch for that would be Oh, wait, wait, wait. Okay.

[01:06:27]Antarctic Fox. Phil Bros are the equivalent to somebody who loves This is Final Tap because they think it is a legit. [laughter] >> Oh jeez.

[01:06:39]>> Have you seen This is Final Tap? Do you know?

[01:06:41]>> No, I haven't.

[01:06:42]>> You know that? Oh, okay. Well, that's hard to Yeah, it's uh it's definitely a parody. Um >> Yeah, I highly recommend it. It's one it's it's like Princess Bride. These are these are movies you must see. You know, these are these are requirements.

[01:06:56]>> And what is it called again? Something Spinal Tap.

[01:06:58]>> The It's called Spinal Tap.

[01:07:01]>> Okay.

[01:07:02]>> It's a Rob Reiner movie.

[01:07:04]>> Okay. I'll I'll have to look at look into >> Spinal Tap. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty pretty funny. So, um >> Oh, okay. Okay, but Amber, we'll have top of this. You you'd think the zeroth law would be their favorite since it's the best argument for the trinity possible.

[01:07:21]All right, Amber, tell us the the zeroth law because um you'll have to tell us what that is because most people don't know it, but has something to do with like energy, but anyway, because it is the whatever.

[01:07:36]Okay. I have a heard a really funny creationist. This is Meg. I heard a really funny creationist argument on the radio today. Scientists say the moon is moving farther and farther away, which implies the moon was touching the earth at some point.

[01:07:55]>> And that was the creationist argument.

[01:07:57]That's fascinating.

[01:08:00]>> Oh, I thought Okay, that was the creationist argument. Yeah, obviously that's ludicrous.

[01:08:07]>> It's moving. is so I mean okay >> I don't know how one follows the other but >> the universe is expanding of course the moon is moving further away everything's moving further away that's the that's the point that's that's the that's what's >> well it wouldn't necessarily be the case with the moon at at like a smaller scale like that like the galaxies are moving further apart but um the moon is moving I if I'm not mistaken away it's like 4 cm a year or maybe something smaller Eventually the moon is supposed to like lose >> its gravitational contact with the earth but that's like so long from now >> right >> it is so very >> yeah and I don't know the exact cause of it but um my understanding is a large impact of the earth created the moon because all the debris came up and gravity acts upon matter and then it kind of came back together and >> oh okay okay so here I have to have the whole thing all right so the first part is um scientists say the moon is moving farther and farther away which implies the moon was touching the earth at some point. But that can't be true because God created the moon on the fourth day.

[01:09:13]And that's how I ended the argument. So we missed the other part. Thank you, Meg. [laughter] We missed the other part of that. It's like uh yeah, that's what I was going to say. The moon is a result of a collision with the earth. Like ah here we go. The zeroth law. Thank you. If two systems are thermal equilibrium, that's what the word I was looking for. If two systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third system, they are also in equilibrium with each other. Ah, lovely. Yeah.

[01:09:43]>> I mean that's basic logic, right?

[01:09:44]>> If A equals C, B equals C, therefore a and B. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So everything's in equilibrium. Okay. All right.

[01:09:51]>> Gotcha. Thank you very much.

[01:09:52]>> So that's the that's the zeroth law.

[01:09:56]>> I need to read up on >> zeroth law. I need to do a thorough study on like the the thor the the thermodynamics um just just so I can because the topics come up so much.

[01:10:08]>> Yeah. I mean I think the main point with the second law is is that um a closed system like it it it talks about a closed system and the the like the earth or even the universe you know it's not a closed system. Well, it it's also on a macro level um you know um >> anyway >> and if you think about it as like um ice melting basically right you have your water which is a temperature and your ice which is a temperature and then it melts and then everything becomes the same temperature.

[01:10:48]That's that's what the law second law of thermodynamics is talking about like it's going into like >> yeah it's neither and but then also confusing things more Dr. Blitz um I remember him saying that there are exceptions to it and I think he said someone won a Nobel Prize by finding the exception to it. That's why when it I try not to dive too far into physics because I don't want to say something that's inevitably we're all going to say some things that are not true but I try to avoid it.

[01:11:19]>> Right. Right. Right. So yeah, it's uh it's a good time though. I mean to to listen to to these these arguments. Um there's like I I do usually every time hear something new like a a different [clears throat] way. Even though you know because a lot of it is some they were like well what is an atheist? I'm like how many times are we going to have to tell people an atheist just doesn't believe? You know that's right. Just not convinced. just not convinced. It's not well, you know, you can't prove there's not a god. That's that's the fun part, too. It's like, okay, you can't prove there's no Puff the magic dragon, >> right? So, >> well, a a common t a common tactic because um when you you explain to the person, I'm not claiming no gods exist.

[01:12:10]Um I'm just not convinced any do. Oh, well, you're an agnostic. Is to kind of tie you down into a semantic argument about what is or isn't an atheist. Um, I just basically explained to them words don't have intrinsic meanings, they have usages. And this is how I'm using the word. It also follows the Lexical Dictionary definition and the Stanford Encyclopedia Philosophy, one of the definitions in there. Um, but I don't care what you call it. Here is my position. Um, do you have evidence that would convince me? and you know >> so >> yeah try to avoid getting bogged down because I I've seen 45 minute >> I know that sometimes you do I'm sorry for interrupting but I know that you that you you do like you know you bring up the the def the dictionary definition but you really ought to bring up the human Tommy definition which is an atheist is an evolutionist that eats babies.

[01:13:08]>> Oh that's right.

[01:13:09]>> Yeah. So you need to bring that one up too. So just just so you know. Yeah, always bringing us always bringing us the the good info. So, and Ember has a very good point. You don't have to know every argument to defeat nonsense. Just ask how do you know >> and check the claims as they come. I mean, that's very >> and that's when starts sometimes too, right?

[01:13:33]>> There's a lot there is a lot of truth to that because they really do have the burden of proof.

[01:13:39]>> Yeah. Um and uh you know um I if they make a claim that's unsupported, how do you know? That's so important.

[01:13:48]>> Yeah.

[01:13:49]>> You know, listen to the claims and you know, the ones you agree with. Okay. No, that's true. I agree with that. And but if if there's something that you don't accept is true, make hold them to task and say, how do you how do you know that that's actually true?

[01:14:02]>> Right. Right. And maybe they hadn't thought about it before, you know?

[01:14:06]>> Right.

[01:14:07]>> So, um Again, we we have just so many fascinating uh takes here. I choose not to I choose to not and believe that non-belief fails to be a non-choice.

[01:14:22]>> I [laughter] go ahead.

[01:14:26]>> Yeah.

[01:14:28]>> Well, there's like is there a triple negative in there? A triple negative is still a negative. So, let's see.

[01:14:32]>> I I just can't even.

[01:14:34]>> So, to not unbelieve is to believe.

[01:14:36]Okay. I was It went away.

[01:14:38]>> Oh. Not unbelief is Okay, hold on.

[01:14:40]>> I choose to not unbelieve that non-belief fails to be a non.

[01:14:45]>> I choose to So I choose to not to not unbelieve means to believe. So I choose to believe that non-belief fails to be I I give up.

[01:14:55]>> It's one way or the other.

[01:14:56]>> Yeah. Thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

[01:14:58]Yep.

[01:14:59][laughter] This is this is sometimes Yeah. diagram that sentence there.

[01:15:05]>> [laughter] >> if I had time and I didn't want to bore people like if I had a pencil to like write down you know [laughter] >> how many negatives were in there >> I think that's the thing uh like I like to follow logic but the philosophical logic sometimes I just can't do that auditorially right I need to write I need to have like the logic gates and everything kind of written out so sometimes that you know I don't I don't follow it that way >> I mean that person was just being facitious right there. But >> yeah. Yeah, of course. I think it's funny.

[01:15:39]That's really really awesome. So, um well, uh let's see. There's not many um shows this week. We're just waiting to see because John's off uh basically this week. He gets a vacation every now and then, too. It's okay.

[01:15:54]>> Yeah, of course. I mean, he does such long streams. like I power through them and like he'll that guy is an absolute machine and he doesn't even slow down.

[01:16:03]Um he he's such a he is such a an amazing fierce mind and he has a a brilliant way with words. A lot of times he and I are like on the same page. um when somebody says something that's sort of a uh a logical flaw or a fallacy or something like that, he and I a lot of times we're talking over each other and we we've been discussing like how to work better together so we're not like tripping over each other. Um but um a lot of the times he and I have the same exact thought, but he just he's so much better than me at articulating them. I I get I get down to the root of things. Um, I like to break things down into their simplest components. And, um, sometimes I'll be helpful where people the conversation's getting bogged down and I'll just say, "Look," and I'll break it down to just to the meat of the of what's being discussed, the logical components of it. Um, but and and he's good at that, too. But, um, >> he's so eloquent with how he goes about explaining things. Um uh I I have a tremendous amount of respect for him.

[01:17:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that uh that does I mean it's exactly what you're saying because like and also the it's it's nice to hear every now and then you break in and like answer the question. That's not the right answer to the question. you you haven't you know like because people are going to do everything they can to avoid getting >> uh confronted in some ways even though they're calling in to do that but yeah >> yeah no yeah no there is a tap dance to it it's a pet peeve of mine and you know I I have to meter um when when people are deliberately not answering a question I don't know why it just somehow like um it's just a it's a real pet peeve of mine >> it's a pet peeve Yeah, it really is because I I take the conversations so seriously like there like I I I have a lot of respect. I respect the process and the dialogue. So if somebody approaches me with a question, I respect the fact that the person put thought into this question and there's a reason that they're asking it. And also if my position is unsound, I need to know it. So, I'm going to engage honestly and I'm going to give like I'm not even going to try to I mean I may think about where they're going with it, but either way, I'm still going to >> I'm still going to like really give an immediate and honest answer direct to the question. And uh when they don't reciprocate with the same respect and return, which is quite it's just constant um caller after caller like you know sometimes I lose my nerve a little bit and maybe I should let them continue a little more so that the audience sees like oh they're not actually answering the question and but I as soon as I see it I I tend to jump on it. Maybe it's a little too quick. I don't know. I'll I'll let >> No, I mean especially though that that can get very frustrating as a listener though, right? when they're just like Yeah. avoiding avoiding avoiding and it's like answer the question. Yeah.

[01:19:15]Yeah. So, I I find it refreshing actually. So, >> good >> y'all.

[01:19:22]Uh we can we can stop the eating babies conversation if you want to. It's It's okay. [laughter] It's like a newborn holds an average of 12,000 to 13,000 calories. Okay. I'm sorry. Uh, it's Tommy's fault for bringing up the definition of an atheist as a baby eater. So, um, yeah. Yeah. This is [laughter] right. Okay. Yeah, they're really going on now. But >> Oddmod said, uh, you'll never be as eloquent as John. Sean, he's British.

[01:19:59]That's actually true.

[01:20:01]Um, yeah, British accents in US culture, British accents are just considered like sophisticated. They just have this air of, >> you know what I'm saying?

[01:20:12]>> Sound sounds so smart to us, don't they?

[01:20:15]Whether whether they are or not.

[01:20:17][laughter] Sometimes it's like it's not fair because I'm a southerner with a southern accent and no matter what we say, we sound dumber than than we are.

[01:20:30]I don't hear us.

[01:20:31]>> Although, no. Sometimes though, sometimes, you know, we really are dumb.

[01:20:35]I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not going to make excuses for some of the crazy dumb dumb stuff. [clears throat and laughter] I don't sound southern. You don't think that? [snorts] >> Very very slightly. I've heard much more heavy heavy uh twangy southern accents than I might if I listen for it. I I think I can hear it a little bit.

[01:20:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I Yeah. A lot of people think I have pretty pretty strong southern accent, but it is it is different. It's just it's different in every every area and where you grow up, you know. So, it can be real. Although around me there are some very very um even more gental kind of like, oh honey, I know. I mean, you know, they really draw things out. So it's uh but that doesn't that doesn't feel >> that doesn't feel normal to me except when I'm talking to them and then that comes out with of me too. So sometimes you just kind of match the accent that you're uh that you're talking to. So [laughter] >> Oh, Gordon loves science said, "Uh, I was very disappointed when John and Sean weren't streaming this morning. I like to listen when exercising. I had to settle for Joe Reed's Bible." Joel Reed's Bible. Joel, excuse me. Joel Reed's Bible. Great show. Funny. Um, >> yeah. Very, very popular creator.

[01:21:58]>> I can't I I've got his songs in my head all the time, especially like listening not just to his show, but to other people's show, and it's like, well, you have to take it into context and just, you know, and then like the context, it comes in my head. All his little songs.

[01:22:13]So, they're really funny >> on other people's lives.

[01:22:17]>> By the way, You know, if you ever want to hear them, they're on Spotify.

[01:22:21]>> Who is it? Who is on Spotify?

[01:22:23]>> Uh Joel Joel Reed's Bible. His songs.

[01:22:26]>> Oh, really?

[01:22:27]>> Yeah. Go to Spotify. I did not know that.

[01:22:29]>> Yeah, it's awesome. It's all about the context.

[01:22:34][laughter] >> He's got a song that it's all about the context.

[01:22:37]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[01:22:38]>> That's great.

[01:22:40]>> Yeah. I >> Yeah. There there are certain like magic spells like inch enchantations that Christians will um like context any sort of it solves any sort of problem like you find a problem in the Bible oh that's out of context but they won't explain what the context is or how they you know parse you know parse out the uh what the actual meaning is and you know uh it's just oh it's out of context.

[01:23:05]It's like context, >> free will, and fallen world. Those are like the those are like the solve everything. Don't have to explain any further. Just say those words >> and then all the biblical problems go away.

[01:23:19]>> Right. Right. But yeah. Yeah. With the with the fallen the fallen world, like it it always comes back around to like blaming the victim.

[01:23:30]>> I always think like I was not in the garden. I did not make this decision.

[01:23:34]this was decision for me, right? I wasn't there like and they were you there? Yeah, that's that's what I want to say about about the uh to somebody who's talking about um you know, well the fall and the fallen world, you know, and I'm like, were you there?

[01:23:51]You didn't do this.

[01:23:52]>> Yeah.

[01:23:53]>> Yeah. Well, that's that's exactly right.

[01:23:55]And there there's multiple problems with the entire theology on so many levels.

[01:24:01]So to to start with and just right from the get-go, if God is all knowing and all powerful, um, and there's some possible world where Adam and Eve have free will.

[01:24:13]>> Yeah.

[01:24:14]>> And don't choose to sin.

[01:24:16]Then God could have made a version of Adam and Eve that he knew have free will but would not choose to eat of the fruit. If he can't do that, he's not all powerful.

[01:24:28]>> Um, right. But then what he decided for them to be made in such a way that he knew for a fact they were going to eat of the fruit that that from the tree of knowledge that he put in the in place.

[01:24:39]And as a result of them eating from the fruit, he's now going to decide to punish all future generations of mankind. People who had nothing to do with eating the fruit. So now you have people being punished for crimes they didn't commit and give them a sinful nature. So he's going to make them in such a way that they cannot not sin.

[01:24:58]100% of all human beings, Christian or otherwise, are all sinners deserving of damnation. But he decided for us to be that way because he decided that we would inherit a sinful nature of the result of what Adam and Eve did. Then he got so upset at of the results of what he did that he's decided to drown the entire planet except for a floating zoo and a drunkarded family. Um, and then the entire rest of the planet has to be drowned because he regretted it. And then he's now this, you know, going to save us. You know, sent Jesus to sacrifice himself to himself for the sins that he made us unable to not do.

[01:25:37]The whole thing is just ludicrous.

[01:25:40]But it's so normalized that like when I was a Christian, it seems so normal because it's repetitive. You learn it as a kid. You hear it over and over. You get the constant affirmation. You go to church every day and it seems so normal.

[01:25:52]But when you look back and you really think about it objectively, the story is absolutely ludicrous.

[01:25:59]>> It is. It is. It is. Yeah. It's unbelievable, I guess, is the there's, you know, so much about it. It's like, but I'm supposed to be like a good a good Christian when when God can't even say, uh, you know, even though you even though you didn't know the difference between right and wrong, uh, I'm going to >> Yeah, there's that, too.

[01:26:25]>> The rest condemn the world for the rest of their, you know, but I'm I'm supposed to be forgiving. [laughter] >> What? Yeah. They said, what? Yeah, it it when it's when it's down to the brass tax like that, when when you explain the the arc, the story arc, it does it just it just seems so >> odd. Yeah.

[01:26:52]>> Yeah. You know, I >> my daughter is in the chat some, but you know, like she she got it or she understood that as at a young age, you know, she just doesn't make sense. I'm like, okay, well, you believe what you know, I was like, you believe what what you know what what works for you, what makes sense to you, right? I was still a Christian and she was kind of like, >> but it doesn't really make sense.

[01:27:18]>> Oh, interesting. So your daughter started doubting before you did.

[01:27:22]>> Oh yeah. Yep.

[01:27:24]>> Oh wow. I didn't even So I hadn't thought about that. Um now I don't know want get into your personal life if that's not you know comfortable but um are do you talk about that publicly what we talked about before or should we change the subject?

[01:27:41]>> Oh not a lot. Not yet.

[01:27:43]>> Okay. Okay. All right then. Then we won't talk about that.

[01:27:46]>> Different family reactions. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:27:49]>> Okay.

[01:27:49]>> So, that's fair enough.

[01:27:51]>> Yeah. But um but it is interesting though as a young person how she, you know, kind of >> also because um her dad is Catholic and I was Methodist and >> but I was very liberal, right, Christian. And so I think she just saw different perspectives from the very beginning, but then also was like >> this doesn't this doesn't make sense.

[01:28:15]Yeah.

[01:28:17]So, and I it it's funny how like now that I've that I can see how strange some of these beliefs are that I remember being like in 10th grade and one of my good friends is like >> this is weird. Have you actually read the Bible? Have you read the Old Testament? It's just a bunch of war, you know, people waring and killing each other and God is like awful, you know, and I'm like, >> I don't know what, you know, but I didn't go and read it, right? I I didn't do it, but I just it's it's interesting how those those thoughts kind of come back, you know?

[01:28:55]Yeah, there's there's definitely a vastly different tone to like the Old Testament versus the New and the war god that's vengeful >> and just um >> yeah, it's almost like Kim Jong-un, you know, became Gandhi. Although there there there are problem problematic, you know, teachings in the New Testament as well.

[01:29:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. Connecticut is saying I think in the Bible authors wrote an evil god to explain the wicked world. You know, I saw it it it just kind of came up in my feed. It's it's an older video, but it it's Justin Sledge on Alex Okconor's channel and uh it's the first video that he did with him, but um just talking about the EV basically the evolution of of God in in the Old Testament um and how how the polytheism became more monotheistic and how that God, you know, had to take on uh like being good and evil. this in one entity [clears throat] in order to be monotheistic. It used to not be that way. It was really fascinating and um and uh I think I think it's worth worth a a look at. But it it I hadn't seen that described that way um with the personality of God and how how how that changed, right? and and then even into the New Testament and the influence of Plato and and the and Stoics and uh cynics and how how that changes >> the even the Jewish perception of of what God was like. So it's that was that's really fascinating. I think I'm gonna hopefully I'll get to talk to Justin at some point too. So that would be good. Yeah, I'm I'm far from a biblical scholar, but the Old Testament, it almost seems to imply, and I'm not I'm not saying strongly one way or the other because I'm not a scholar, but there are parts of it that seem to imply there are multiple gods.

[01:31:02]>> You know, like even thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[01:31:06]>> Um that's the the language of that is suggestive is there are other gods.

[01:31:10]Don't have any of these other gods before me.

[01:31:13]>> Right? I mean, you can you can sort of interpret it differently, you know, like >> Yeah. But it's very clear. No, there's it is very polytheistic. Um I did a I did a show with Kip Davis um a couple months ago about polytheism >> right >> in in the Hebrew Bible. And it's it's really fascinating how how how that evolved and how God had all these different names, but it was just different gods from different different culture groups, right? And it just kind of all morphed eventually into >> or that Yahweh won out of all the other other gods. So, it's kind of Yeah, it's fascinating. But I mean, and so that part I kind, you know, I learned about with him. But then this this other description of just like the personality of why why [clears throat] the personality of God basically had to change um is because, you know, you would have >> the L was the father like father god, right? And he was like your grandfa, you know, like the cysteine chapel, you know, white-haired grandfatherly kind of right uh uh of figure. And then the storm gods, Baal and Yahweh. And so just like and then others were like, you know, more evil than others, right? More war than others. And but then having to put all of that into into one >> to become monotheistic. That's how So it's fascinating. Yeah. It's interesting to see that is interesting the god changed but also how that um how his personality you know had to change had to change because of >> and then I'm wondering if the original authors and we don't know who they are um actually intended uh for the people who wrote wrote the Old Testament in Hebrew if they if they were actually trying to portray an omni benevolent God or if they were just trying to portray a god who was scary and someone you should listen to. Um because I know some of the old Greek and Norse mythology, they're not perfect beings. They they have jealousy. They have >> anger. They're not omni benevolent.

[01:33:34]They're not they're they're more anthropomorphicized like like they're like like people are, right? And and so >> yeah, >> it's hard for it's hard for me to believe that the original authors were trying to portray a god that is the ultimacy of goodness. I think they were it seems like they were trying to portray a god that is like don't f with this guy and you better listen to him and that and that that was the message and that's what they were trying to hammer home. Not >> I think there's a lot of that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. I think like um you know there is there is you know some of that like if you're reading the Psalms and and there are you know God is you know how great how good is God that kind of thing but it's it's definitely not I think it's more what you're what you're saying but it's interesting too because >> um how how God is portrayed in in yeah this is it our God can beat up your God.

[01:34:30]Yeah. It was like who who is gonna who's whose God was gonna win out, right? But also um that like Kip Davis talks about like >> uh just bigger in every way like it's like we are in the image of God. We look it's so humans actually look like you know God right? So God is humanlike and has a body and has body parts and but it's just bigger just bigger everything.

[01:34:58]Um more powerful right more knowledgeable but also like lots of big feelings too. And so this is the this is >> and gets into wrestling matches >> really like this is that that just is like so so strange like that is just so strange >> and not even like fair ones like like not you know like >> grabbing body parts ought not to be grabbed during wrestling matches that's the kind of thing that yeah >> you're like this is so weird where is this coming from yeah >> yeah when I read the old >> so many fees that's it with the big fees Oh yeah, with the big Fifi as well. Um, yeah, when I read the Old Testament, I I get like there's multiple gods. He's not all powerful. He's not omni benevolent.

[01:35:45]And it doesn't appear that the authors even for their time because a lot of times I sort of not excuse but like put myself in the mindset of the culture at the time very misogynistic, slavery was okay, everything. And maybe they were trying to portray Omni benevolence, but then I I had thoughts later on that maybe they weren't even trying to portray him as all good because I had I had chocked it up like with the mindset the original authors were that's their version of good, which is abhorrent, but that's their culture and what they believed at the time. But what if that's not the case? They weren't trying to say all good. They were just trying to say like my god can beat up your god and you should fear my god more than all these other gods.

[01:36:31]Yeah, I think >> I think it's that more. I really do. I think you're right on that part. I do.

[01:36:36]Um, and Ember, uh, yeah, this is good.

[01:36:39]Uh, ultimate good version of God was Augustine and Paul didn't even go that far. So, you know, like, >> yeah, I think that's that's that's very true. So it's a very like the omni benevolence part is not in the Bible but also >> it's kind of not in the Bible right it's it's something something uh later so >> and what is your background with studying it have you have you studied it on your own or have you studied it in a formal academic setting >> um I have a master of theological studies >> oh wow okay I'm talking to the right person >> to your academic degree and I I focused on ethics and and an and anthropology in that in that program. And then um I went >> to the University of Southern California to get a PhD in religion and ethics. Um but I didn't finish the PhD. I got uh everything but the dissertation. So I I I have a master's in that. And then while I was there, I got a masters in education because I was going to teach high school. So >> So Okay.

[01:37:47]>> Yeah. So yeah, I studied and then then I taught science in high school for a long time and then have recently come back to studying religion again. So that's >> okay.

[01:37:58]>> That's kind of what I >> And are you I know we talked about it before. Are you um think considering chasing your PhD at some point?

[01:38:08]>> Yeah, I I mean I've been thinking about it for 20 years since I not [laughter] you know I'm like I really want to do it. So yeah, I'm I'm just trying to find the best >> uh subject actually because I Okay.

[01:38:22]Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking like and so therefore I'm just looking at different programs. So we'll see. I might I might do it.

[01:38:30]>> I might I might do it.

[01:38:32]>> I might just >> continue to >> interview other scholars instead of becoming one. But I will see. We'll see.

[01:38:41]It's fun. I love it. It's interesting.

[01:38:43]And so it's just a lot. It's just a big life change, right? And I have to really really focus on something kind of narrow. And it's hard for me to focus on something narrow. I really like life learning about all kinds of different things, but I also know that I can focus for a little while on something and then go do something else. So >> we'll um yeah, so yeah, it's a it's an idea, but I I go to conference like academic conferences and stuff like that just because I think it's interesting and fun. So, I do that.

[01:39:15]>> That's great. Um, well, I um I I'm definitely going to start consuming your content. I don't know if you discuss uh any um academic topics when it comes to biblical studies or what have you, but um I'm trying to learn more. I I'm very much a lay person when it comes to biblical studies in the Bible and um you know so I try to learn what I can from people like you and Justin and you know watching Dan Mlullen or what have you.

[01:39:44]Um >> yeah. Yeah. Uh Kip Davis um is a Dead Sea Scrolls scholar and he's been on a number of times and um talking about lots of different subjects but he's uh written a really really big book. So every now and then I'm like just come talk about this uh talk about that, you know, chapter and everything. So those are those are good. And right now I mean I have um I have some edited content. Um but I haven't done that in like a year.

[01:40:11]I've really only been doing lives these days. Um and I'm going to get back to it. I promise. But uh right now I'm just just doing the it's not a book. I know.

[01:40:20]But it is a book. It really it's not a book. And it's a big joke that Kip has written no books because someone said that one time. In fact, this is the where is it? I have it.

[01:40:33]Yeah, it's this one.

[01:40:34]>> Keip Davis has written no books, >> which is not true because he had written like three of them before this.

[01:40:41]>> Keip Davis has written no.

[01:40:46]>> Yeah, he wrote God's propaganda. So, it's it's really good. But uh is the name of the name of the book, but um >> Okay.

[01:40:54]>> Yeah. So um [laughter] yeah, it's uh it's it's so I so the lives is what I'm I'm trying to point you to if you want to watch uh some of the stuff, but I have I have a I have physicists on and theologians are >> okay >> biblical scholars. That's kind of the main folks. then uh other people who who are interested in lots of different subjects like me. So that's kind of that's kind of my stick. I don't really I just do I just talk about things that I like to talk about. So [laughter] and people people like to chat about it too. So I have a lot of fun with these with folks that that do show up. So I appreciate everybody who came tonight.

[01:41:39]Thank you so much for being here. And uh yeah, here's Tips's book. Um that's where that is. And this is what it looks like. Oh, wait. I have to show you. Uh I people haven't my co-host is here. Everybody, I just want to make sure everybody there. He's sleeping.

[01:42:03]>> That's my little Sie.

[01:42:05]>> He's doing pretty good.

[01:42:07]>> He's had some tummy troubles.

[01:42:08][clears throat] But we got a new a new food that he actually likes that's helping. So that is all good.

[01:42:14]>> That's good.

[01:42:14]>> That's my little buddy. It's Saul. Okay.

[01:42:18]Um >> that's your co-host. John has a co- co-host and it's a it's a cat that is constantly climbing all over him.

[01:42:26]>> It is. It's really sweet. Yeah. That's the uh that's Kip Davis's book, but it's pretty big.

[01:42:33]>> Okay.

[01:42:34]>> But um God's Propaganda. Um, yeah. So, that's that's kind of where we are. So, he is sleepy. He's a good boy.

[01:42:44]>> So, um, well, let's uh let's wrap up for now. And I hope maybe sometime you can come back and chat with us some more.

[01:42:52]Uh, I would love on again. Okay. I'd love to have you.

[01:42:56]>> Thank you very Thank you very much, Maren.

[01:42:58]>> Oh, yeah. No problem. It's really fun. I really appreciate you being here. And, uh, yeah, John Cohen has written a book.

[01:43:06]So, uh, you can go buy it.

[01:43:09]>> Unconvinced. Yep. You can pre-order it, but it's not available till November.

[01:43:15]So, anyway, thank you, Tommy. Yeah, everybody enjoyed hearing uh you talk about your experience, and I I really appreciate appreciate you being here.

[01:43:25]So, >> I'll be here. I'll be here next week, I'm pretty sure. So, anyway, y'all take care.

[01:43:33]>> All right. and I subscribe and I'll talk to you guys later.

[01:43:36]>> Okay, very good. Thank you.

[01:43:39][music] >> [music]