Safety Priorities in Law Enforcement

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:06]What's up, dudes? See if I can get the guys in here quick enough. Get this thing started.

[00:00:19]All right, Jamie and Bill are in here.

[00:00:27]See if we can do this without screwing it all up.

[00:00:36]Boom. And boom.

[00:00:39]>> What up? What's up, guys?

[00:00:42]>> Can you hear me?

[00:00:43]>> Gotcha. Gotcha.

[00:00:45]>> Blowers hit me up, too. Uh, I think he might jump in.

[00:00:50]Our buddy Johnny's going to be a little late.

[00:00:55]Bill's in here.

[00:00:59]Just a couple seconds to make sure we got everybody in here and we'll start wrapping.

[00:01:06]We'll start if I see Bill show up. We'll just add him in. Um I think I'll kick it off. Um and I'd like to hear your guys' opinions on it because I actually learned there's Bill right there. Hey Bill, send me a request. I'll add you in before we get started.

[00:01:22]>> I'm in. Can you hear me? It says I'm in anyway.

[00:01:25]>> Oh, sorry. Sorry, the other bill blowers.

[00:01:27]>> I got you.

[00:01:28]>> Oh, [laughter] >> yeah.

[00:01:32]>> Face.

[00:01:32]>> Yeah.

[00:01:35]See if I can get him added in here.

[00:01:43]Flowers. Let me know if you get that.

[00:01:45]Um, yeah. We'll see if Bill gets in the other bill. William as it were. We're both probably both Williams, aren't you?

[00:01:53]>> Yeah. That's my government name. Yeah.

[00:01:56]Um, so actually I'll start this off while wait and see if uh Flowers can get in. There he is. Hey, man.

[00:02:03]>> I found I actually learned some interesting stuff when I posted that.

[00:02:08]>> And one was I I was under the assumption that some sort of priority of life, safety priorities, some sort of decision-making model had been being taught in law enforcement for as long as I was around. Um, and I actually had a couple guys DM me saying, you know, I've never heard of this before, um, from different parts of the country, um, you know, in a respectful way.

[00:02:31]They're like, you know, I think you're you're coming from a place that has this training or does these things and you're not really aware of smaller departments that don't have access to this information or don't use it. And I was like, I don't know. I I kind of get around a lot. And while I don't discuss the safety priorities or you know priority of life and for now I'm just going to call it the safety priority cuz I believe it's the the best use of the word but I while I don't discuss it with them a lot I still see that decision-m model used. So I have to agree that there's a lot of places that probably don't have some sort of system like that or knowledge of it but I think most do.

[00:03:08]Um, so I wanted to kick off what my thoughts of were and then we'll kind of go around the the horn and get your guys' input on it. Um, piece by piece.

[00:03:17]So I'm not doing like a full monologue, but the safety priorities, right? My understanding is that that that verbiage of it that that change to the priorities of life came around through NOA and I believe it's probably one of the few things they've done well. But at first I didn't like it. I didn't like the liberalization or the the the pussification of you words that we use.

[00:03:38]It used to frustrate me. But as I progressed in my career and got exposed to more things and learning how to deal with politicians and chiefs and upper command level people, I learned that a lot of it is playing the game. And I learned that when you use their words in manners they don't like them used in, you actually get a lot of headway. um like deescalation, telling a an investigator from the DOJ that shooting people in the 30 30 shooting people in the face of the 308 is a way to deescalate a situation. She did not agree with me. We agreed to disagree, but it is true. It does do it. Um but then I thought about it and I'm like, priorities of life. I go, it's an easier way to describe everything and it doesn't it also kind of lets us know that it's not a use of force model. It's a decision-making model more for placement and movement and you're deciding whether to act and where to put yourself in relation or in proximity to a threat. It doesn't really have anything to do with killing people. It's saying whose safety are we going to prioritize and what does that mean? Um to me it means it's just a breakdown of who has the most control of the situation. Right? Hostages have little to no control or they wouldn't be a hostage. innocent, uninvolved, have a little bit of control because they can leave the area. They can evacuate themselves if they choose to. They can try to shelter in place. There's a lot of things we can do. We're at three because we're supposed to be trained professionals who are armed, trained, and told that it's our job to do these things and given the the ability to actually defend ourselves and understand the law. And then the last is the suspect because they have absolute and total control of the situation. they have the most control because at any point they can stop being felonious and just give up. So if you look at it as orders of control, who has the most control of their outcome, it goes in that order as well. Um just that for a way to start it is the overall thought. I wanted to hit that and can I start with you blowers if you don't mind? Can you give me some thoughts on it?

[00:05:37]So the your first comment I'm also surprised because that something similar to safety priorities party life I have heard that I don't I'm not even sure the NOA made that up because I I remember hearing that in the academy in 1992.

[00:05:50]Yeah was in effect then but they weren't as well known as they are today. So I'm not sure why that would be a foreign concept to anybody. Um I I like your breakdown man and you know your um the post that advertising this live coming up. You said it's not semantics. It matters. And I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it is kind of [ __ ] semantics, right? It's it's this is the job, right? This is what you signed up to do whether you like it or not, right? You're carrying a gun.

[00:06:20]You've taken an oath to protect and serve. And so I think that those people that you listed should be higher on the concern list than me or my fellow officers if I took that oath seriously anyway. Um, and so, yeah. Yeah, it's a it is your comment about flipping admins's words and using them against them is on point. Um, I think I I agree with you. It the 308 to the eyeball is a deescalation depending on what the situation is. Um, and it's sometimes I just kind of wonder where is this you I mean I'm assuming this is based off of Matt's podcast with the with them other fellas and some of the comments that were made on that. I I I this is a foreign concept to me that this is not a a concept that everybody understands and and agrees with to some degree if you are if you're a cop, right? I mean it's I don't get it. I mean it's it's this is a very simple thing to me. So, if you want to call it safety priorities, cool.

[00:07:19]I'm down with that. I get what you're saying. If you want to call it priority life, cool. I'm down with that. I get what you're saying. Ultimately, it boils down to I'm willing to risk everything and the performance of my of my job.

[00:07:28]Otherwise, I don't think I could do my job, man.

[00:07:30]>> Yep. And I and I we're I know you and I you and I have talked about a bunch of stuff and I it's often very funny some of the conversations we have because we're like, "Oh, no [ __ ] I've dealt with that idiot, too." But I I like I like it is in general semantics, right? They do. They're the same rules, but I think we got to learn how to play this game as cops. And it's like, you want to call it that, cool. It also mean it means this. If if you want my job, which I know how to do very well. If you want me to use those words, I'm going to use them and I'm going to figure out how to make them an advantage. And that's how I like that advantage of cuz their excuse is you're prioritizing someone else's life. You're saying their life is worth less. No, we're not, jackass. But if you want to view it that way, cool. I'll stop saying it. What I'm doing is I'm going to prioritize I'm going to forget him and I'm only going to prioritize this person's safety and I'm going to do whatever it takes to keep them safe. I'm going to put myself between them and the threat. And that's what I mean by like a decision-making model for positioning.

[00:08:30]Go ahead, Bill.

[00:08:31]>> I sometime I I think I'm pretty pragmatic in nature and so some of this has just eased me and I'm not looking to be offended or looking to, you know, what did you really mean by that type of [ __ ] right? I I will flat say that I in a hostage situation that my only concern for the suspect is that I don't violate his constitutional rights and killing him may not be a violation of his constitutional rights in an effort to save other people that that he is threatening with deadly force or serious bodily injury. And so I am going to prioritize the victims in this case because he's the dude that started this whole [ __ ] and like you said at any point he could put down his gun, put his hands in the air and obey commands and I'm going to get him in custody. Are those too tight? Make sure they're done.

[00:09:14]Watch your head. Your heat. Would you like country or wrap? You know, pothole.

[00:09:20]>> This is your cell. Here's a blanket.

[00:09:21]Like, [laughter] >> nice shower. And and he's done.

[00:09:27]The the the resolution is is always the suspect's decision, right? If he persists in the behavior, then he may not like the the resolution that he gets out of this thing, but it was his behavior that caused the resolution to happen. And It's just, you know, some of the [ __ ] I'm man I I love officer safety principles, right? Things that have changed since New Hall, right? The new hall.

[00:09:54]>> Um and and and I think that we are better at a lot of stuff, right? And by that I mean make less bonehead decisions that put us in jeopardy. I as much as police training is deficient in some degrees, I think it's gotten better over the years, right?

[00:10:10]I also hate officer safety [ __ ] because the focus becomes only your safety, Chris, right? As long as you stay safe, everything's fine. And and there this is a this is a profession that has some risk, man. And I also think we put way too much weight on what a suspect is actually capable of and willing to do compared to if your ass has been taking the training seriously and you're a professional. A hostage situation, typical hot is not the Super Bowl. And we got to quit calling it that [ __ ] because it it might be a football game, but he's pee-wee league and we should be the NFL in this and it's a one-sided fight every time, right? But I think guys this thing built up in their head >> that it's some incredible task that they're about to partake in and it if the if you are good individually and the team is solid collectively, then this is the easiest [ __ ] I've ever done, man.

[00:11:05]We'll probably hit some we'll probably hit some of the like the hostages because I want to hit some specific scenarios with you you guys. But the I want to hit um Jamie with the next part.

[00:11:15]Like semantics aside, we take those words, right? And at my old department, it was hyios is how they teach the the young recruits, hostages, innocence, officers, suspects, right? That's the order, the decision-making model.

[00:11:28]>> I know Jamie, you teach the same thing, right? That that's the decision-making order. But all they do is it's like, and one of the guys actually uh DM' me today, and he said, he goes, "People treat it like the pledge of allegiance.

[00:11:37]It's a bunch of words they say, but they don't know what they mean or how to use them, right?" And I go, that's a freaking great saying. So other than going when I ask them, hey, what are the what are the safety priorities? And they go, it's hostages, innocence, officers, suspects. I go, okay, given this situation, how would you apply them?

[00:11:52]Right? What do you mean? And they're like, well, I would come over here to cover. I'm like, whose safety are you prioritizing at that point?

[00:11:59]>> Mine, then are you wrong or right?

[00:12:01]>> Well, I'm wrong, but if I go over there, I might get in a shooting. This is correct as [ __ ] You might. Now, the problem I have is what I want to hit you with, Jamie, is we teach or as far as I I'm still convinced that most agencies teach it. It's either not been paid attention to or guys forgot it, right?

[00:12:16]They don't have it as part of their daily decision-m.

[00:12:20]If I see crazy man, cuz everybody needs a scenario. Crazy man with a hatchet and he's chopping up the pay phone cuz those still exist, I think, next to the Circle K, right? He's over on the right hand side and you pull up and they call and they're like, "There's a crazy man with a hatchet chopping up the pay phone."

[00:12:33]And you get there and he's screaming about Jesus and he's not paying any attention to you. He's just whacking away at it. And you go, you know what? I don't give a [ __ ] if he's beating that up. I got to deal with him pretty soon.

[00:12:43]But going up and grabbing a man with a hatchet who's crazy talking to Jesus is probably a bad idea by myself. Right.

[00:12:48]Yep. That's where officer safety's kind of made some some good strides, but I probably should not let him get in the Circle K. So I go and I get on the sidewalk next to the door. I don't have to go in the Circle K. I don't go, but I'm going to get by the door of the Circle K. He turns around and cooch and he comes at me with a hatchet and I shoot him because I had to defend myself and I was scared for my life. Right?

[00:13:09]Whatever these guys want to say. Then they say, "You put yourself in that position." And we've all seen those, right? The officer created jeopardy. We do have a lot of incidents where officers create their own jeopardy for no damn good reason. But when it's done for a good reason, I don't like it when it's called officer created jeopardy. I like it as keeping the safety priorities in order and preventing harm. Right. I didn't shoot him because he had a hatchet. I shot him because he was coming at me with a hatchet and I can't let him get in the store. If he ran away with the hatchet into an empty field, I would just follow him.

[00:13:42]>> Yeah.

[00:13:42]>> Right. So, >> exactly.

[00:13:44]>> Do you feel like people understand how to apply that decision-m model at all in the classes you've taught?

[00:13:51]>> I think as I traveled around, people do exactly what you say. You ask what are the safety priorities, priorities of life, whatever you want to call them, hostages, victims, innocents, officers, they just list it off, but it's not really a list. It's a decision-making tool. And given the scenario that you just said, right? I show up to that call. Who is my number one priority now?

[00:14:11]It's the people in the store. It's not officer safety yet because I don't want this guy coming in to hurt the people in the store. So, I'm going to put myself in that position. Cool. Now, those people are safe. Let's start getting those people out. Once those people are safe and out of the way, then who becomes the priority now? Now I become the priority. Wait till my buddies get there. Creates time, space, and distance, whatever. And now I'm not going to go rush up on that suspect.

[00:14:38]And you, you and I, you and I were talking about this. I was just teaching the class back east.

[00:14:44]And the very first thing I talk about in every one of my classes is the safety priorities. We talk about it as a decision-making tool, not just names on a screen, not just words on a list. How do I use this in every decision that I make? If I go to a fraud call, who's the number one priority? Well, there's really no victim there that I'm protecting. I'm just dealing with like a check cashing thing.

[00:15:06]Officer safety is the number one priority then, right? But I show up to, let's take a a SWAT call. Suspect's inside by himself, but I have a neighboring apartment. I'm going to go up to that apartment, risk, put a some level of risk to put myself in between the suspect's apartment and the bad guy and the victim, the innocent bystanders apartment. Get them out. Then once they're out, who becomes the priority now? Now it's me. And so I think people say safety priorities. They say priorities of life a lot, but they don't actually teach it as a decision-m model, a decision-m tool on every call that they go on. It's not I don't think it's used because everybody likes their scenarios, but I don't think it's at the end of the scenario in the debrief. It's like, hey, what why'd you make this decision? And it's something that I think dudes should be writing in reports. They should be referencing it in this. I moved to this position to prevent the individual from gaining access to this open courtyard.

[00:16:03]>> Y >> like you literally if the more you use it, the more it starts to make sense.

[00:16:07]One of the guys in the post or comments here talked about McCarthy's original paper on the priorities of life. know that I think the NTA is the one that renamed it safety priorities because the semantics were uh the it just didn't sound nice and sometimes it's cool to take people's nice words and make them mean mean things again and I get great I get great fun out of that >> Bill back where uh >> wild build where you're at why um how is it a decision-making model that's used is that foreign to you guys familiar >> yeah we um we've always taught it as uh priorities of life you Um, >> I I actually don't really care which which term is used, but I I like the safety priorities with in a in conjunction with your explanation. I think that makes a lot of sense. The way that we've been teaching it recently because in the past before I was in the position that I'm in, it was just like you said, it's it's here's your priorities of life and uh next slide.

[00:17:03]And then it re you really don't revisit it until you come to that scenario and it's like oh you have a assault that just occurred and and you're given this scenario or they're given this scenario and they're expected to perform those tasks and they never really hit on it again. In the SWAT world I think we did a better job of using those to kind of dictate the risk that we're willing to take and dictate what type of tactics we're going to use to complete whatever the objective is. So, I think there is a disconnect with patrol and your your average B cops, at least from where where I'm at, because there was that big disconnect and and if I was to say that to guys, um I tend to get like the blank stare back. Uh because this is fairly new for us, kind of teaching it as more of a conceptual problem solving method as far as like this is a hostage situation. we are prioritizing the safety of the hostage but also willing to risk ourselves significantly more than had this not been a hostage situation which then allows you to kind of uh have more options as far as what you're going to do and what you're going to break and what you're going to do in order to complete that. So yeah, I believe it's a decision-making model at at a conceptual level when it's uh applied like appropriately and taught in that in that manner. It it has to be ongoing use. It's not like that. I think that dude saying it's like the pledge of allegiance. It's a bunch of words we say and we don't know what they mean. Um I like that the I look at it kind of like it's like the four firearm safety rules, right? They are not fuddy old rules that keep us from doing [ __ ] They're rules that let us do cool [ __ ] with guns.

[00:18:40]That's what they actually do. If you don't violate them, you can do all kinds of fun [ __ ] Run around with guns and swing them around all over the place.

[00:18:46]Shoot all kinds of stuff all crazy.

[00:18:48]Just don't break one of those four rules and you can have all the fun you want.

[00:18:51]Same thing with those. Like if if we can start teaching guys better like this safety priorities thing isn't verbs.

[00:18:56]It's not words. It's not just a it's not a it's not a freaking pledge of allegiance. It's just that mean nothing.

[00:19:02]It's a decision-making model. So it lets you do cool [ __ ] with force, right? This dude didn't this dude is. And it doesn't that's why I like that safety priorities better than the priorities life because it life might not be in danger, right?

[00:19:14]It might be an argument. It might be a guy lipping off. I You now can get in between him and the person he's lipping off on. You can separate those two things, right? It doesn't It's not about killing people. It's about positioning and when I should and can act. And I like the should part a lot, right? When I should act. You don't get to behave that way if other people are in danger.

[00:19:37]If I can separate and get in between you and even if we start talking about hostage rescue stuff, the goal in my what I was always taught the goal is not to rescue the hostage or kill the bad guy. The goal is to create separation so he cannot affect the innocent anymore.

[00:19:52]>> So if we can go in and grab the hostage and we don't see him and we can get out, it's like, haha, [ __ ] You don't have a bargaining chip anymore. Your shit's going to be full of gas and we're going to take your house apart. You know, it's we're not going to keep pushing the fight. If you've if you've affected a rescue, right, grab the hostage, why are you continuing to fight? Is the way we generally teach police, right? Securing the number one goal is the goal, not to continue to put yourself in danger when there isn't a ne a necessity for it.

[00:20:19]>> When I think >> looking at you see these videos all the time of officers, maybe it's a high-risisk felony stop or whatever, rushing up on the car right away.

[00:20:31]>> Why? What is your priority? If there's no victims or hostages in there, the car's pinched in. The car's pinned in.

[00:20:37]It can't move. Why are we rushing up to that vehicle? Why are we putting ourselves in harm's way when there's no innocent bystanders that that are affected? There's no victims that are affected. The officers now become the number one priority. So, let's hang back instead of rushing up and putting ourselves in in that crappy position.

[00:20:56]>> Right. And it doesn't mean And it's when you said time, distance, and cover. I'd like to hear you guys thoughts on this.

[00:21:01]I remember when I first heard that I was like, "Fuck you. I don't want to be part of this take more time, run away to cover, hide [ __ ] right?" And I then I thought on it, I'm like, "No, let's turn those words around and let's explain what they actually mean. Time, distance, and cover." And Jamie, you've heard me talk about this before. Those are not three things that confine you. Those are three elements you control. So, how do you deescalate an active shooter? You go fast, close the distance, don't let him use cover, and you end his life, right?

[00:21:28]Unless he's naked and he gives up, right? So, time, distance, and cover are things we can control. If going faster gives us an advantage, go faster. If closing distance gives us an advantage, close the distance and act or take the distance away. And the same thing with like a street jump on a car. Car gets pinned. I don't need I Once you get shot at enough, you find it's like I probably don't need to poke my head in the tinted window right now, right? Pox the car. Do we have compliance? Not yet. He ain't shooting yet. Hey, put your hands out.

[00:21:55]He's not cooperating yet. Fill it with gas. Break all his stuff. take him into custody right now. I don't need a protracted negotiation with a felon who's going to jail, right? Like I'm not trying to talk you out of feeling good about going to jail, right? But we we of we don't even recognize that most of us are perfectly comfortable and I'll just say at least I am with a suicidal person, right? You want to kill yourself. I'm sad about that. But I don't want to kill you for killing yourself. I'm going to leave and we will leave the [ __ ] out and just go away, right? No. What if they kill their neighbors? I'm sure their neighbors will be families will be sad. But I [clears throat] can't future crime this person and what if them to death right now. They say they want to kill themselves. I'm not going to put a put them in a position to make a bad decision where I got to now defend myself or someone else. We're going to bounce. If they want to kill somebody, let me know. We'll come back and arrest them for that crime. But until then, it ain't no crime. It's none of our business. Can you But see what the safety priorities on that fit? Like is anyone in danger? Yeah, they are. From who? Themselves.

[00:22:53]>> Bye. Officer safety. Let's bounce.

[00:22:56][clears throat] >> Does anyone Does anyone's at apartments or build? You guys were similar to that, right? The lone suicidal guy.

[00:23:04]>> We actually done that uh a few times where, you know, we had something similar and then at at one point RTL was like, you know what? We're just we're just going to leave because there's there's no risk to anybody else but himself. So, why are we wasting all of this time and resources for someone who might do something at some point when we don't have anything right now? So yeah, we've experienced that.

[00:23:26]>> And Blowers, you got more you had been on you've been around it longer than I have even. Have you ever heard of a guy who wants to kill himself going out and like the police left and then going out and tearing up the whole neighborhood?

[00:23:36]>> I you know I mean I don't No, I have not heard of that and haven't done the research either. Um I will say man that it's uh that what you the way you said that was very simplistic, right? And so >> kind of just this is a counter argument and and and devil's advocate, right?

[00:23:56]>> I'm here for it. You know that. I'm here for it.

[00:23:57]>> So, um you got y'all got any bridges in Phoenix?

[00:24:03]>> Those are different. [laughter] >> They are.

[00:24:08]>> You got a bridge in Phoenix?

[00:24:09]>> Yep. We've had bridge jumpers.

[00:24:10]>> Okay. So if a if I'm over >> very high >> leaning out there that's what I'm wondering is that like a ditch or some [ __ ] Um I'm leaning >> actually had a guy die jumping off a bridge. I couldn't hold it.

[00:24:23]>> Okay. So I'm leaning over that [ __ ] bridge right past a fella can die from dropping off thing and and you get dispatched to to this crazy guy on the bridge and you get like hey Bill you know don't do come back on this side and blah blah blah. And I'm like no [ __ ] you leave me alone. and then you drive the [ __ ] away and then I jump. Is the department going to be pleased with your performance or not?

[00:24:43]>> No. And I don't think it's an off it's a decision at the officer level in public in a public space I think changes. I'm talking about the suicidal guy in his own home.

[00:24:51]>> Okay. But he's still suicidal regardless of where we locate him on the planet, right? And so this thing comes up, right? And are we creating this [ __ ] now where we've come here to save you and then we [ __ ] kill you, right? Um type of thing. And so we ended up and I ended up enlisting our team's legal adviser, longtime prosecutor and very aggressive guy. And so he did some review of of the our state law. And essentially what he said was if you're sending cops to it at all and then the dude says I ain't getting with the program, meaning he's not going to come out of the house. And then you leave, he thinks that there could be a nexus that you have established a special relationship with with the person, right? the city, the government has the authority to control those that they are in position to control. In this case, in the state of Washington, I can with enough evidence hanging over the rail of the bridge, I can involuntarily commit you to to a hospital for up to 72 hours, waiting for MHPs to value you and do all that kind of horseshit. I I can also use force on you to take you into that custody, right? Um, and so in the case of the bridge jumper, I could then when I was working snatch you around the neck and pull you the rail and put you to [ __ ] sleep and then you wake up on the gurnie headed to the hospital, right? And so um I could I mean to tase you I could have [ __ ] pepper- sprrayed you could have cop karate your ass to to in [ __ ] I wanted to do and so now we have a house in place. is the special relationship been created where now by leaving the guy's not getting the attention he wants and so he does he duck start his pils his brains out he he felt that there could be a a civil claim on the family side that you were in a position to offer help and and then decided to [ __ ] split. So then the next question of course is well then okay if that is true and I don't really give a [ __ ] about civil liability to the city uh or the organization for that matter. Um what then can we do? What should we do type of thing? And then his response was well kind of old man underpants right? It depends. Here's if the call is the guy has a gun and the firearm is confirmed by other family members. You get there come out. He says [ __ ] you ain't coming out.

[00:27:05]You can leave potentially creating a civil jeopardy. Okay, whatever. He said, but if the house's backyard busts up to the elementary school playyard, are you leave now or is that a different [ __ ] duck entirely? Right. Are you going to evac the school and then go through a 12 hour, 14 hour period of of overnight and then notify the school again that we still ain't got the guy out of there because we're afraid to do something that could result in us shooting him.

[00:27:29]And then how long are you going to go on with this process? And so ultimately his suggestion was that is if you're going to go there and the fire was confirmed, it's a SWAT call out. And the only reason it's a SWAT call out is because we had better [ __ ] cold weather gear.

[00:27:45]We got [ __ ] that we can employ to try to drive them out. We already made force that handles dudes in houses all the [ __ ] time and patrol can get back to handling calls which are stacking up while this whole thing is [ __ ] about anyway. But then he said, you know, my only other suggestion would be use velvet gloves at that point. And I go, what what does that mean? Yeah. Right.

[00:28:02]>> And he's like, "Well, you know, I wouldn't the normal barricaded felony guy. My team didn't [ __ ] around, right?

[00:28:09]Like you said, I'm not gonna not trying to convince you. Jail is fine. Get come the [ __ ] out. You won't. I'm going to tell you to come out and then we're going to make you come out." He goes, "I would definitely slow that progression down." And and I was like, "Well, could I still use gas?" He goes, "Well, yeah, you can use OC on a suicidal guy, right?

[00:28:23]Could we pull his power? Could we blow up his doors? Could we introduce Tanine?

[00:28:27]Could we do some of these other aggressive things?" And he said, "Yes."

[00:28:30]The question then becomes when in the progression would you do that? And and so we never did it by the way, right? That was his recommendation. Um and then of course we were at that point which is prior to a bunch of CIT ship that would has become you know the kind of the deal and I mean we have MHPs now that are a separate entity in King County, Washington that will come out. said he was talking, hey, you know, have negotiators be calling MHPs out, get their check off. That's more a professional signs out. Yeah, he's full of [ __ ] And then when you split and then he whacks himself, you can point the finger at this professional. So, I don't I don't know what the right answer is. I will tell you my personal morals dictate that if if Chris if you called me after this podcast sad and inside about some of the comments that said we're all a bunch of jackasses and you I would get in my truck and drive to Phoenix right now to try to make you not do that right because I I care about you as a human being.

[00:29:23]>> Is that making sense? And so >> yeah, [ __ ] him. Let's leave him alone.

[00:29:28]That I don't know if that's that's not what I signed up to do either. as part of my charter is to protect and serve, right? And so the service piece would be getting this guy the help he needs so he don't want to [ __ ] kill himself no more. And so there is a moral dilemma here for me that may sound corny to some [ __ ] dudes, but it's it's problematic is I guess what I'm trying to say.

[00:29:48]>> Yeah. So it's a it's very complicated waters now. We're in like a different topic, but I think it's a good topic to discuss as well. So ours and no one watching this or watching this in the future, I hope you guys don't mind. I'll post it up. um take this as legal advice. We are not lawyers. We're talking about our own experiences and our own municipalities where we live and worked.

[00:30:07]>> So talk to your own legal adviserss.

[00:30:09]However, >> what our we used to do all the suicidal people and be out there forever and we've had plenty of them were like please man look tomorrow's another day and we're you know we're active listening and we're you know we're using minimal encouragers and we're doing all this stuff and then bam they kill themselves. Oh well we tried right you know 6 hours later we tried the bridge guys. Anything that was a public space, we weren't going anywhere because again, safety priorities. The public is in danger. If he jumps off the freeway bridge, now we've got the freeway shut down. We're inconveniencing also the people. Nothing in a public place got left. But we had enough at homes where we had uh mental health pickup orders from a doctor, right? Like he's a danger to himself and others. You guys got to go get him. So the patrol guys would go there and he's like, "Fuck you. I ain't coming out. I got a gun or I got a knife. I'm going to kill everybody. I'm going to kill myself." Um we would get there and our CIT guys would do the same thing. We call the doctor up and be like, "Hey, what's the scoop?" And they're like, "I just need to talk to him." You know, he's made some statements on him. I'm like, "Okay, well, we're here to pick him up. Um, how bad do you want him? How bad is he bad?"

[00:31:07]And they're like, "Oh, you know, I just need to get him." I'm like, "Well, if we [ __ ] him up, is that okay?" And they're like, "No, he I don't want him to get hurt. Like, if he doesn't want to come with us, we got to go get him. Like, is that okay? We may hit this guy with some batons. We might bite him with a dog. We might use force to take him into cussing." Like, "No, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. I just need to talk to him." Like, how about we tell him you want him to call him and we leave, right? Cuz people say that, "Well, I got a court order to pick him up." Cool.

[00:31:32]We'll call the judge if it's a warrant.

[00:31:33]Even I got this guy now. He's in a freaking coma in the hospital. You want me to arrest him? No, that doesn't count. I got this guy. We're going to have to beat his ass to take him to you, Dr. Bob, cuz he said something sad to you and he's off his meds. Do you want him or not? And if he's like, "He's seriously [ __ ] up and dangerous. He's going to hurt somebody. We're going to stay and deal with him." But if he's like, "No, he's just sad, we're bouncing, right? We're not going to give him a chance to us to get blamed because you broke the window and he killed himself. We had plenty of those, right?

[00:31:59]Hey, let's do a break and rake on the back window. See if we can get his attention. Bang. Well, we got his attention, right? Um, a lot of those and it isn't feeling bad like we and that's the part of the it fits the same narrative of getting between a threat and a victim and having to shoot the bad guy. We never caused that guy to kill himself. He just made a decision in that moment to do it. Just like the bad guy made a decision to attack and you defended yourself. Your positioning is irrelevant to what the bad guy's decision is to do, to hurt you or someone else. That's like blaming the girl she got raped because her skirt was too short. Right? It's the same thing.

[00:32:32]And and ladies, don't get offended. And people don't don't let your feels get hurt on that. I'm making a comparison.

[00:32:37]It's like blaming the victim. You shouldn't have been doing that. You shouldn't have been standing there. You should not have had that bra on. All these things are very similar to me. But as far as the safety priorities go, that decision-making model, I still feel like it's just words that most departments give and teach without any context and how to actually go about using it. And then if you do use it and define to them exactly what you did, most guys aren't going to get the department to stand behind them if they use that decision-making model.

[00:33:10]I think you have a better chance if you understand it though and and you do use it.

[00:33:14]>> I real quick, man. I I took a note when you said and then I'll shut up and the other guys talk. But you talked about officer created jeopardy and then with the crazy hatchet guy by the phone in the circle.

[00:33:23]>> You articulated right got there in my car, saw the crazy guy with the hatchet.

[00:33:28]Don't care about the phone, but I do can't let him get in the store.

[00:33:30]Therefore, I position myself between him and the store entrance.

[00:33:33]>> I think that is what is missing in a lot of these things that are officer not explaining why. And they probably I'm not maybe it's subconscious. They don't consciously recognize that I am going to stand in front of that door in case he tries to make entry and then here he comes. I got to defend myself because he charged me with a hatchet, right? Uh so they do things and then it it just doesn't get explained properly and then it looks shitty because the guy put himself in the way of the thing. Well, why did he put himself in the way? And if he doesn't explain it, of course, it's up to your perception, right? It's it becomes everybody's opinion about what he should have done versus if he were to just explain it as you did.

[00:34:12]Makes [ __ ] sense to me, dude. Go the other way and you wouldn't have got shot. Go out in the field. You didn't get shot. Try to come in the store.

[00:34:18]You're going to get shot. I can't let you come in.

[00:34:20]>> Yeah. Our goal is not to [ __ ] you. We're not going to kill you. We're not going to let you [ __ ] around, though.

[00:34:23]>> Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:25]>> I think too often officers are do a super shitty job of documenting exactly why what they did. Yeah.

[00:34:32]>> Right. So, I got into a lot of use of forces back in in the day.

[00:34:37]I documented my use of force cases better than I documented any other call because those are the ones that I was getting sued on and all that fun stuff, right? But I went down Graham versus Connor. What is the crime? I documented the crime. What was the threat? I documented the threat. What was the resistance? I document the resistance.

[00:34:55]Officers should do the same thing with the safety priorities. What was my priority? Who was in jeopardy? Who wasn't? What did I do to manipulate the situation to protect those innocent people that needed to be protected? What did I do to put myself in a good position to protect myself and my team before we went up? And I think if you do if you use the safety priorities in your report writing just like you would use Graham versus Connor in your use of force report writing, you'd be able to document those things better and explain a little bit better what to do. I think going back to the suicidal call. I'll give you a perfect example of the safety priorities being used in well I guess it was two calls. We got a call from um somebody that said, "Hey, my girlfriend, [snorts] she wants to kill herself. She has a knife. She's alone by herself." Cool. Officer show up to the house. She wants no help from the officers. She wants to kill herself.

[00:35:52]It's not legal to kill herself. Our officers bounce. Two hours later, the boyfriend goes back home.

[00:35:59]She now threatens him with a knife. He barricades in a bedroom. And now he's barricaded in the bedroom. She can't get to him, but she's still a threat to him.

[00:36:06]>> So officers respond to the call. What's the priority right now?

[00:36:11]>> The guy inside.

[00:36:12]>> The guy inside. But are we going to rush in and do a hostage rescue right now?

[00:36:17]>> It all depends on that's there's there's all the depends. There's so many depends.

[00:36:21]>> He's barricaded in a room and it's safe in the room. Are we >> I will Here's what I'll do. Here's what I'll do. I'll give you an answer to it just on what I heard. Right? We've already been there. We know she has a knife and we know she's acting uh not of in her right mind. Right?

[00:36:35]>> He calls. Now I'm stuck in the house.

[00:36:36]I'm trapped with this crazy [ __ ] in this room, but she can't get to me yet.

[00:36:40]Right? She hasn't tried to get to me. Do we have does he have access anywhere?

[00:36:44]Can we get him out a window? What room is he in? If we can try to figure that without confronting her, we can do it.

[00:36:49]But we still have to we still have to get between those two people, right?

[00:36:53]He's calling us for help, right? It's not the the boyfriend's also in there with her. Okay. Does he want to come out? No, he doesn't want to come out.

[00:37:00]Well, then he ain't a [ __ ] victim, >> right? He's an unwitting. He's he's a he's a co-conspirator in the freaking hanging out and doesn't like the police.

[00:37:08]We're not going to put ourselves in danger for those who do not want to be saved or choose to be there, right? But I would >> I'm glad you >> I would absolutely get in there and be like, "Ma'am, you can't act like that way."

[00:37:20]>> Okay. Glad you said that. So guy takes his dog, sticks out the window, says, "Save my dog."

[00:37:26]>> He's back inside.

[00:37:28]>> But he won't come out.

[00:37:29]>> Goes back. But he won't come out now.

[00:37:31]>> That's too He's not a It's a him problem now.

[00:37:34]>> Okay, cool. So who's the priority now?

[00:37:37]>> The dog.

[00:37:38]>> The dog for sure.

[00:37:39]>> We got the dog. The dog's good. We got the dog. So who becomes a priority now?

[00:37:44]He's unwilling to come out to us.

[00:37:46]>> Okay. So the priority >> I know I would if I was at the window talking with him. He says, "I'm too scared. If I get out, she's going to mind kill me." Well, now I know he's crazy. But at that point, if he refuses to help himself, right? [snorts] If he refuses, he's not a victim of anything.

[00:38:00]>> He's just scared and trapped. So he's an innocent. Innocents have the ability to remove themselves from the scene. That's why they're at number two, right? He's a two.

[00:38:09]>> You need to come out with us. I don't want to. I can help her. I can fix her.

[00:38:13]Cool. We are not going to kill her because you're making bad decisions, dude.

[00:38:18]>> Perfect.

[00:38:18]>> I'm not.

[00:38:20]>> So, he exits the room and now they're together.

[00:38:23]>> Okay.

[00:38:23]>> He starts screaming, "Help! Help! Help!"

[00:38:26]Now, what do you do? Who be now?

[00:38:28]>> Now you got to go cuz he's an idiot.

[00:38:30]>> So, our officers hear help, help, help.

[00:38:32]They go in. Guess who they shoot? They shoot her in the face cuz she's getting ready to stab him with a knife.

[00:38:36]>> Yep. So, in that one call, you have a suicidal call, right? Officer is the priority. We're not going to go in.

[00:38:43]We're going to leave. We're not going to be here. Now, we get here. The suspect, the subject is inside. He's safe.

[00:38:52]She can't get to him. But now he's not willing to exit himself. Saves his dog, but not willing to exit himself. Thinks that he can help the situation. Who becomes a priority. Officers do.

[00:39:02]>> Yep.

[00:39:02]>> Now, he yells, "Help, help, help." Now he becomes our victim or hostage victim and now we have to go in and make that rescue.

[00:39:11]>> So using >> So that's why I'm not afraid to answer it. If I use that decision-making model, it gives me the answer and what you should do.

[00:39:17]>> Exactly. Exactly. If you use that as a decision-m model, you will be correct every time.

[00:39:24]>> So I think we're on the same sheet of music with this [ __ ] What evidence to the >> safety priorities?

[00:39:33]I'm sorry, I missed it.

[00:39:34]>> Evidence, which is the new thing I've been hearing lately. So, it's hostages, innocence, officer, suspects, evidence.

[00:39:39]That's your pecking order.

[00:39:41]>> I don't have evidence anywhere near my >> I don't have or property. I don't care.

[00:39:45]>> I It It's ridiculous. And I The problem with it that I'm seeing when they add the evidence is the evidence becomes the focus and they forget about the other priorities. Does that make sense? And so, as an example, right, evidence gets chucked in here now. Well, it's just dope. And so we're not going to put ourselves at risk even though they they live in a multif family structure, right? Apartment complex. And so they're going to use a specific tactic because it's just evidence that that tactic of will potentially allow them less control the suspect who begins to shoot at the team. And those bullets are going somewhere and almost nobody is going to evac the apartment complex prior to making contact on an SNC of that apartment. So now bullets are going over the goddamn place >> and and and it essentially was our fault because we did not [ __ ] evac everybody first and we prioritized the evidence as the as the thing that would tell us how we're going to conduct the warrant service. Does that make sense?

[00:40:41]Have you guys heard this?

[00:40:42]>> Yep. I haven't I've never heard of it in implied into the safety priorities, but I've heard it used as an excuse or reason for planning a reason in the decision-making model. Right. But even if they did, even if they put it in the safety priorities, and it was five. So the simplest way I can look is are we going to put the suspect in danger for the evidence now? Because if we follow the rules, no, we will not. We will not put that person in danger just to get evidence, right? And that should we should never be treating a human life. I there are few that I think just don't have they're not humans, but there we should not be treating a human life like it's an evidence thing, right? We're like, "Well, we got to save the evidence, but we have that suspect, pesky suspect in the way, right? I guess we got to do this barricade and not give a [ __ ] about the twos that are all around us in your scenario, Bill."

[00:41:29]Right? We have an apartment complex full of innocents. They may not be all innocent, but in this situation, they are innocent of it, right? And we have made no effort to protect them from the number one or the four who's in the house, right? A suspect. We are going to arrest this dude for his dope. Dope dudes tend to have guns. We're scared of this guy because we think he's scary and has guns. So, we're bringing a whole SWAT team to deal with it, right? But we're not going to make an effort to protect them. And when he does start blasting, all we ever do is get behind the armor and it's like shelter in place with your Stuckco walls that are thin as [ __ ] and all the bullets are going through pillows and TVs around you in the in the neighborhood. But I agree, like I know you brought it up, but yeah, evidence ain't got no part of this decision-making model.

[00:42:12]>> Has nothing to do with anything. I've never served a warrant for evidence ever. I could give two [ __ ] what the evidence is.

[00:42:18]>> No, I'm here to arrest a dude. Yeah, we're looking for the dude.

[00:42:22]>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to control the people, >> right? Which makes it safe for the community. However, that needs to happen is what I'm going to choose.

[00:42:31]>> I got one for you guys. And Bill, I know you and I have talked about it before and I've heard you talk about it as police, right? And I'm I still firmly believe this. I think you're still on the same page. Uh Blowers. Um, when we're in there clearing, when we're doing doing our CQB movements, right, and we're going through the structure and we're pointing guns at little 8-year-old girls faces, right, and we're like, "Come here, sweetheart."

[00:42:54]Do we have the safety priorities out of order when we start acting like that with the we, the women, and the weak, right?

[00:42:59]>> Yes.

[00:43:02]>> Back up.

[00:43:02]>> Are we You know what I'm saying, right?

[00:43:06]>> Yes. You cannot get me there that an eight-year-old kid deserves a gun, a loaded gun pointed at their [ __ ] face. You can't get me there. It's ridiculous. It's [ __ ] stupid.

[00:43:19]>> What about grandma and mumu >> fil bottle of [ __ ] [ __ ] place, man. Godamn. Just say I'm scared all the way through the house.

[00:43:27]That's repeating that.

[00:43:30]>> So, and I I had a good discussion with one of the guys at class today and he was like, does that because he had read I was going to do this post. And he's like, "Does that interfere with the safety parties?" And I'm like, "Well, that movement doesn't have anything to do with the safety parties." But if you think about it, if I'm pointing a gun with intention at an innocent person, and I say the we the women of the weak or the innocents, right? He's an 18-year-old boy that comes around the corner, he might be a felon. He might get a gun pointed at him for a little bit until I can gain control, see his hands, and see what his demeanor is, right? But when I recognize when I'm doing my freaking switch shoulder freaking post up on the hallway covering left and I'm covering down there with my flashlight and grandma comes around the corner for a brief moment she may have a gun pointed at her but then I need to be like well I probably don't need this pointed at her and I'll just point my light down here. Right.

[00:44:15]>> Y >> um >> I just I don't know. I just I wanted to get this on here and give guys a chance to talk about and maybe ask questions because I think having something that's that simple that guides you in your decision-m takes a lot of the depends right and say it depends on this what about this you give me an answer cool here's what I do and I can just give you an answer and what I also think is it isn't giving you the solution to the problem it's putting you on the right path of decision you're making good decisions as you go I am not guaranteeing you that it's going to work out well in your favor or anyone else's But at least you're on the right path for the decision-m. You know, >> Chris, I think um one thing that makes a lot of sense I think gets overlooked, especially from the patrol perspective and teaching them folks or seeing how they were taught over the years with this in my area is that not only the safety priorities are going to help you have a decision framework of what's going on right now, but if it gets to the point where our our safety is is of importance right now, it it can give you the freedom to and the bandwidth to see what what is most likely to occur next or what is the most the next most deadly course of action. Can we put people in place to prevent those things ahead of time in case they do happen? Like I bet Jamie in that scenario that you were describing like if if you're in the leadership position there, you're probably like, "Hey, I need like a a team of guys ready to go in in case this turns into something else." And it can help facilitate like follow on actions or if conditions are set to, you know, go or the the thing changes on the fly. And so it when it's looked at like that, it may it kind of really streamlines the decision-m process for what should we do and and when is the moment and when we do it.

[00:46:06]>> Here, let me flip let me give you guys a flip on that same scenario. For those that weren't listening before, it was suicidal chick alone. Boyfriend comes home. Uh, I'm scared. Hides in the bedroom. calls the police to help him with his life choices, right? He puts the dog out the window. We're talking to him at the window. He's like, "I can't come out. I'm going to fix her." I'll flip it and say that the safety priorities can also help me making decisions on that to be more aggressive.

[00:46:29]I'll be like, "Jamie, I be like, "Hey, dude, move out of the way." I go in the window, you come in the window, and we put him the [ __ ] out that window.

[00:46:35]>> You're getting the [ __ ] out cuz you are now interfering with a suicidal person, right? And I could still be right in that decision. You are going to cause us to kill this freaking girl, right? Your actions may lead us to having to deal with something later. I'm not going to let you put her in danger. She is mentally unstable. And a mentally unstable person, killing yourself is not a crime, right? A mentally unstable person, I could almost look at them as a victim, unable to help themselves, right? They're obviously not in their right mind. They're not making choices that if they were in their right mind, a normal person would make. And I want to get them help the best I can. And your dumbass is interfering with it. We're going to remove you just like a dude out in the front yard wanting to get in the way and ask the police what they're doing. Step back over here behind the line. Senor >> real.

[00:47:20]>> It was a real call.

[00:47:22]>> No [ __ ] Okay. Yeah.

[00:47:24]>> The whole everything in there would 100% happen.

[00:47:27]>> Cool. Cool. Is it was the was the window a second story or first floor?

[00:47:32]>> Oh, it was a first story.

[00:47:34]>> Yeah, >> it it was a >> when you were explaining exactly what you just said, Chris. when he was explaining the first time I was like I snatch when he gre hands the dog out I'm going to snatch his ass right out the window too >> with the >> I think it'd be fun to be on a call with Bill because I'd be like Bill we're going to go get this dude he'd be like right >> all right >> so and I think going back to what something you just said Chris is the importance of planning right I think it was Bill you said like we get the team together the supervisor should let's come up with a plan uh Ryan from um Phoenix you know we all know Ryan >> yeah Ryan talks about ABC planning. Plan for worst case scenario. What could happen? We going to have that this chick's going to start stabbing this guy. We're going to have to make entry now. We ready for that? Cool. All right.

[00:48:16]Who's going first? Let's go.

[00:48:18]>> Okay.

[00:48:18]>> So, another thing I want you guys Go ahead. Sorry. Finish it.

[00:48:22]>> Second thing, what could happen? Well, this dude could come to the window.

[00:48:26]Let's go get this guy at the window and then peel back and get back. Or best case scenario, she comes out and surrenders. Do we have a plan for each one of those? Cool. That way when it happens, there's no delay in doing it.

[00:48:38]But it's using the safety priorities to come up with those plans before it happens. So when it does happen, everybody's on the same page and everybody's doing the right thing.

[00:48:46]>> Yep. And then Bill up top, the uh that decision-making model you said like the the one of the wisest things I was ever taught is work backwards from us shooting this dude, >> right? What did we do to mitigate not having to shoot him?

[00:48:58]>> Were we in places behind cover and using it appropriately if we were the only ones in danger? Did we cover avenues of exit so he couldn't access anyone else?

[00:49:05]Well, we got to put a guy here in case he goes over the fence to the schoolyard. He comes over the fence schoolyard and we shoot him. You guys shot him because you were there.

[00:49:12]Correct. We were there because of these reasons, >> right? What did we do to mitigate it?

[00:49:17]There's nothing else we could do. He came over the fence with a gun. This is a fantasy scenario. He came over the fence with his gun and he starts coming towards the school. You are not allowed to access this place, dude. You can be sad in your house all year long. You don't get to be sad out here in the school.

[00:49:30]>> All right. But that's why we had to be there. Now, if you're standing outside of cover and the guy says, "I'm going to shoot out the windows at people." And you just want to see what happens, which happened to a friend of mine and he won't ever do that again, right? And the dude starts shooting at you and you ri behind cover. Then luckily he didn't get shot, but had he been it would have been like, "What did you do to avoid being shot?" I did not use cover and now I do.

[00:49:52]Right? Like work backwards from shooting to good. What did we do to mitigate it?

[00:49:56]We did this, this, and this. We talked for this long. We we gave him this many options. We tried to do this. He made a choice. That's about That's the best we could do. Whether he's a violent felonious freaking armed carjack and robbery, murder and raping son of a [ __ ] or he's just a sad dude with a gun having a bad day. Um, work backwards from the shooting. Use the safety priorities as your decision-making model. How you're going to plan it out and how do you mitigate him affecting anyone else. Once that's covered, we can try to talk. We can only talk so long.

[00:50:26]We either got to leave or act, right?

[00:50:31]Yep.

[00:50:31]>> But it just it does boggle my mind that it's not something that's more useful to people. It's being more used.

[00:50:39]It's almost like they're like, "Here's you've passed your qual. That's good.

[00:50:42]Here's your badge and a gun. Good luck."

[00:50:44]>> Um, figure it out.

[00:50:46]>> Pledge of Allegiance is why implement them into your thought process and planning process. Those these are the this is the rare part in you know what I mean? It's >> because you see it on the words on the screen on the PowerPoint. You go through them and then that's it. Right. It should be taught as a decision-making tool to every call you go on.

[00:51:06]>> Yeah.

[00:51:07]>> I think I think you could even compare it to like someone mentioned time, distance, and cover before I wrote it down. And you know, if we look at how that's traditionally taught, at least out here, it is those are the things that I always want, right? I always want more time. I always want more distance.

[00:51:23]And I want cover as as much as I can.

[00:51:26]But I don't think we look at it in a way that you had mentioned earlier, Chris, which is those are also things that I can take away if I want to be on offense or like, hey, if this is not a shooting problem at distance, then I might need to take away time and distance >> in order to affect the have that positive effect on on the person that I want as opposed to always having that mindset of like I need all of this [ __ ] right now. Sometimes it's the reverse and like no, I need to take away that [ __ ] right now to solve the problem. And I think if if those things begin to be taught in a conceptual framework, um I think that would solve a lot of decision-m and articulation problems that we see with cops. If I'm being honest, I'm going to be uh a little controversial and say that I think a lot of the burden is upon a lot of the, you know, legacy police trainings that have not like took it taken a conceptual understanding to what they're teaching and they've just resorted to regurgitation.

[00:52:25]At least that's what I've seen um in our area. And it's like this these conversations. I mean, you guys are all over the country and I don't have many of these conversations with folks out near me. So, it's like this should be more common, I think, or and hopefully.

[00:52:41]>> I hope we'll post it up. I hope. And anyone wants to reach out to any of these guys, they're a wealth of knowledge. Um, Bill is a freaking genius when it comes to tactics and he's a comedian when it comes to tactical ideas. Um, Jaime's got his training company running around. Bill, you got you make knives and are training dudes and combives, right? Um that that's what's important to me as a guy start to understand it better. And I want to reit that one. Time, distance, and cover are not run away, take more time, and hide, right? It is those three things you need to be in control of at all times. If you lose the control of one of those, you you better be in position to react to it cuz he's going to make your timeline.

[00:53:20]Well, we're going to talk to him for two hours. What if he decides to [ __ ] us off in two and a half seconds, right? What do we have in place? How can we deal with it? Well, he's hiding behind this thing. Well, let's not let him hide behind cover, right?

[00:53:30]>> Um, but have state law that uses that specific language is what officers will use. In our case, it says time, distance, and shielding not cover, but >> in Arizona, not state law, but my department policy that was, we were told we must put that in when I help with use of force policy. So, we then defined it time, distance, and cover, time, distance, and shielding. These are elements the officer is in control of.

[00:53:55]They are neither they are not a positive or a negative. Okay.

[00:53:58]>> They can be sort of leverage.

[00:54:00]>> Yeah. We've we've very much made it clear that you are leveraging these as you see fit to give you an advantage to protect the community. Period.

[00:54:07]>> I think when we had our big police reform a couple years ago and then they reformed the reform because it was so [ __ ] restrictive. Uh but that language stayed in there and the interpretation of it is that you must always look for more time distance and shielding. And my point to do is that that if you read the law and actually read the [ __ ] [ __ ] right? There's language in there. It says whenever possible, but then there's uh language also that says unless this would be impractical. You mean giving you these golden eggs and as a legislature, they were smart to go, okay, you can't always apply these things, so let's make sure the cops can still delete those things from the suspect. But you know how it goes, right? You see the time, distance, and shielding that becomes the PowerPoint in in ends training. And that's the thing that gets hammered and obvious must always do those things and they're not seeing the reverse side of when taking those things away would be beneficial to solving the problem as Bill said, right? This ain't a gun problem. I have to get closer. So karate on this dude and and before he more egregious, right? And and for some reason, and I think this is law enforcement across the country to be honest with you, right? something comes out, a new law comes out and whatever you glom on to the the PowerPoint blurb, right? That one thing becomes the teaching point and nobody ever reads the entire [ __ ] statue. They just get the talking point from whoever the hell is doing the talking. And if it is upper admin, maybe they [ __ ] couch that toward the liability >> versus the the the safety of community and and officers. You know what I'm saying?

[00:55:44]>> Yep. the liability boogeyman. Loom's ever present, yet he's not real.

[00:55:49]>> I think if you use time, distance, cover, like we're talking about with the safety priorities, you use time, distance, cover as a decision-making tool, >> right? You leverage the one that you need now.

[00:56:00]>> Yeah.

[00:56:00]>> Right now, maybe my distance, maybe distance is my friend or maybe [ __ ] I got to close the distance because I have to end this now.

[00:56:07]>> I'm going to punch the student in the face.

[00:56:08]>> I need all of this.

[00:56:09]>> Yeah.

[00:56:09]>> Yes. I I think it's safe priorities and then that time distance and cover those those things should be a [ __ ] flowchart, man. Right.

[00:56:19]Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

[00:56:21]>> Like Chris said earlier, >> like Chris said earlier, like then the whatifs just go out the window.

[00:56:26]>> Yeah.

[00:56:26]>> Because if you start using the decision-making tool, you can what if things all day long, you have your answer in the safety parties and time, distance, cover, in surprise, speed, violence, back, whatever you want to say. If you use them as a decision-making tool, you always have the answer to the whatifs.

[00:56:41]>> Yeah, I think it's going to cut us off here in about 2 minutes, guys. I want to thank you all for jumping on. I'll post this up. Um, if you watch this in the future, you want to reach out to these guys, reach out to them. Um, training and pretty much everything you can think of wanting training in, these guys can provide it. And um, maybe we'll do another live another day.

[00:56:59]we get more police topics that are specifically uh topic or I don't know useful instead of talking about the same old things. I'm glad we didn't get a CQB conversation going or a [ __ ] splits versus transitions. Um talking about actionable things that guys can use in their day-to-day jobs. But >> love it.

[00:57:20]>> That's all I got. You guys got anything you want to close on? I'll put uh I'll put a link to that call, our debrief, our department's debrief to that call so you guys can watch it and see. All right. Thanks.

[00:57:30]>> How it was handled.

[00:57:32]>> Sounds good. Goku, thanks. Nice talking to you guys. Thank you. Play it again.

[00:57:37][snorts]