Is It Too Late for Christianity? Hope & Radical Theology | Second Saturday Conversations - 5/9/26

追加: 2026-05-26

[00:00:10]Welcome to second Saturday conversation where we explore Christianity in and for the 21st century.

[00:00:22]So what kind of narrative is Christianity?

[00:00:28]Certainly a narrative in search of an interpretation, wouldn't you say?

[00:00:37]All great narratives, all great religious narratives, Christianity included, beg us to ask, "What stories do we tell ourselves and why?

[00:00:51]Where do they come from?"

[00:00:53]Joan Ddian writes, "We tell ourselves stories in order to live, in order to survive in a world that doesn't tell us its meaning."

[00:01:12]And we know that some stories are better than others.

[00:01:18]Some say that there are four main stories that we tell ourselves. Stories about who we are, where we came from, stories about where we're going, and why things happen the way they do.

[00:01:38]And what is the most read book of stories of all time?

[00:01:44]The Bible.

[00:01:48]With all the stories of the Bible, I dare say they are all searching for interpretation.

[00:01:58]When it comes to Christianity and the Bible, some wonder though if we need a new story or do we need to adventure a different kind of probing into the depth dimension already within it?

[00:02:22]What is going on in Christianity?

[00:02:26]I think that's a question that we need to ask. What's really going on?

[00:02:32]We may never know with certainty.

[00:02:36]There may be no final word on Christianity, but certainly something is going on.

[00:02:47]And it's that question, what's going on in Christianity that keeps me from abandoning it?

[00:02:56]That said, I am struck and kind of halted by something that Richard Whitney said. Uh Richard Rory was an American uh philosopher. He died in 2007. Rorerty is RII and his comment is this. He said historical Christianity was a quote missed opportunity.

[00:03:21]a missed opportunity, opting for doctrinal orthodoxy and other worldliness and failing to act as a primary progressive force for social justice and change.

[00:03:42]And Bonhaofer wrote, "Christianity stands or falls with its revolutionary protest against violence and arbitrariness and pride of power and with its plea for the weak and with its plea for the weak."

[00:04:07]So Richard Rory felt that Christianity had fallen, had failed in its revolutionary protest and has missed its opportunity.

[00:04:22]I say may it still stand.

[00:04:27]I've not abandoned the conversation about Christianity yet.

[00:04:33]Evelyn Wah wrote, "The two saddest words in the English language are too late.

[00:04:41]Too late."

[00:04:43]I hope it's not too late for Christianity.

[00:04:49]It's late, but I hope it's not too late.

[00:04:55]Today I will remind us of the topics and speakers that have been part of second Saturday conversation for this program year. Our program year goes from September until June.

[00:05:07]And then I'm going to share with you some of the things that are have really um provoked my own learning. Some things that I'm still pondering puzzling about and I I'll ask you to do the same during our plenary time.

[00:05:23]Um, so speaking of plenary time, let me let me have Jeff Kreswell help us to know how to orient ourselves to raising our hand and the conversation during plenary.

[00:05:34]>> Good morning, Maryanne.

[00:05:35]>> Morning, Jeff.

[00:05:36]>> Always good to see you.

[00:05:37]>> Thanks.

[00:05:38]>> I hope you're having sun in Bend like we are here.

[00:05:41]>> It's It's beautiful. It's gorgeous. I mean, Ben Yes, it is. It's beautiful. By the way, I love your shirt. It matches your um uh >> Oh, yeah.

[00:05:51]on that are on your above you above above you beneath you around you everywhere everywhere. So love it.

[00:05:59]>> You can never have too many herand in my opinion.

[00:06:04]>> Welcome everybody. It's really great to see so many familiar faces. Um, as Maryanne said, she will be sharing her ideas with us and when she has finished her thoughts, we will open up the plenary and that'll be a time for you to interact with those ideas with your questions, your observations, um, whatever it is you'd like to share in interacting with Maryanne. Uh, the way that we do that is that you will go down to the bottom menu bar of Zoom and look for the little heart that says react.

[00:06:37]and you'll notice an option to raise your hand. So, it'll put a little hand icon up to let me know that you would like to speak and I'll be calling on people as I see them. Uh, just a brief reminder that the way I see them may not be the way you see them. So, even though you may look like you're the next in line, it's it doesn't always work that way from my end. Um, we ask that you keep your comments to two minutes. that gives as many people as possible an opportunity to share and we really value the ideas and thoughts of this community. So as many people as we can hear from the richer the conversation.

[00:07:17]>> Okay, >> perfect. And today in particular, I'm just so uh interested to hear from you.

[00:07:23]Before I uh I I begin some of my thoughts. Um, Ed Wales, I'd like you to um identify yourself. Ed is a participant in Second Saturday Conversation. Ed, are you here?

[00:07:39]>> I am. Thank you, Mary.

[00:07:41]>> There you go. Um, Ed is going to be uh offering a uh a course uh online that he is leading and um I want to give him an opportunity to say a little bit about it. and I think that he's going to post something in the chat that will give all of you an opportunity to um avail yourself of it. So, Ed, tell us a little bit about what you're up to.

[00:08:03]>> Yes, thank you very much, Maryanne. I'm going to be leading a book study on gospel vulnerability.

[00:08:11]The book was authored by a friend of mine who lives in Oregon. Her name is Mary Sharon Moore. And I was I've read several of her books and this one really kind of struck home to me because it really speaks to the life of Jesus more than the death and resurrection of Jesus and how Jesus' life can be a model for us in living today.

[00:08:40]And so I invite you to read the description in the chat. I'm not going to spend a lot of time, you know, taking up our time today to explain that. But if you have any questions, I put my email me u address in the chat as well.

[00:08:55]So, you're welcome to contact me.

[00:08:57]There's also a link to the registration for the book study. It's seven weeks beginning July 11th. Thank you, Maryanne.

[00:09:08]>> Okay. You bet, Ed.

[00:09:10]And I know that uh a number of you um have your own conversations and create opportunities for further discussion in your own communities. So um I'm so glad that Ed wanted to make this known to all of you and and just for the rest of you to know I'm I'm happy to let people know what you're up to and that so they can connect with you um for more conversation. Anyway, great Ed. Thanks so much.

[00:09:38]Okay, I'm going to remind us of uh some of the topics um that we have covered from September until now. And then um as I said, I'm going to tell you what's been um what is provoking me. And I've jotted down a number of sentences that have kind of caught my attention.

[00:09:57]Um and I'm I'm not going to be doing that in a in a narrative form or in a particularly linear form. In fact, it isn't linear at all. I'm just going to share with you some what I'm learning and and what's, as I said, what's continuing to prompt me to think about how I think about Christianity and what it is to be human and why some of this stuff matters. And uh it's not exhaustive, but my hope is that it will prompt you to come up with your own uh uh for you to share with us some of the things that are moving you in in your your thinking and even reimagining of um what matters and why. So I look forward to hearing from you. So, uh, let me start by mentioning in September, um, I started out by sort of unpacking the overall title for this year's program, which I chose to be Starlight like intuition pierced the 12. And that's a line that's a title and a line from a poem by Delmare Schwarz. Okay.

[00:11:11]And then the subtitle was in dreams begin responsibilities.

[00:11:15]Okay. So I was just really caught by that starlight like intuition pierced the 12. I mean, all of that was sort of evocative language for me. And and what I what I I learned from choosing that title and then spending some time with that poem of Delmore Schwarz is that my take on starlight like intuition, Pierce the 12. And it's like, you know, is there something about the starlight, the light in the the darkness in the night sky that kind of pierces my own heart and, you know, invites it to open and, you know, I mean, so that language I I was drawn to it. And then in dreams begin responsibilities. It's like dreams are uh not just uh amorphous things.

[00:12:05]They we need to make them come true. you know, we I connect dreams and citizenship. Okay. So, the the title that I chose, I had all these positive associations with it. As I looked at Delmar Schwarz's poem, and by the way, he was a very troubled gifted but very troubled um person.

[00:12:26]Delmare Schwarz's take on Christianity was its emphasis on omnipotence, perfection, and that Jesus was perfection itself.

[00:12:42]And so as Schwarz was reflecting on what he understood as being the Christian master narrative, kind of what is Christianity about? is about this perfect human being who is God who can do anything. And so if he asks us to do something, we will never measure up.

[00:13:06]We will never be able to come to that kind of perfection. Um I will say as a parenthesis, perfection is not a human thing.

[00:13:17]So, but Delmare Schwarz's take on the mass on what he understood as the master narrative of Christianity was uh very different than mine.

[00:13:29]And that just got me more aware of the power of master narratives saying this is what this means. how compelling they can be because they can tell us what is and what we're sort of addressing those questions of of story. Who are we and what's possible and where are we going and what does this mean? And a master narrative can give you that.

[00:13:55]But in the wrong hands, a master narrative can be punishing and oppressive and exclusionary and tyrannical. Okay. So because of of the title that I chose for this year, it got me thinking secondarily about the power of master narratives and how um how dangerous they can be, including the mass a ma a master narrative of of Christianity. Okay. So here on second Saturday, I think part of what we're doing is taking a look at and as I said in my invitation to this day, we've been doing this indirectly, but we are kind of assessing or wondering about what is that master narrative of Christianity as it is presented to us um conventionally, even in classical theology.

[00:14:56]um uh culturally and what do we make of it? And it kind of goes back to this question. I mean, what's going on in Christianity? What's really going on? And it's part of the matter narrative we've been told. Is that really what, let's say, what Jesus was about? Is that really what the early followers of Jesus were experiencing? Um the quotes that I offered today um in the beginning u from like 9:15 to 9:30 I show a number of quotes. These were all from Marcus's book the meaning um meeting Jesus again for the first time.

[00:15:36]And of course I will send out those quotes to all of you with some comments about it. But Jesus emphasized it.

[00:15:43]I was going to Jesus emphasized. I meant to say Marcus emphasized that Jesus was a spirit person that it was his relationship to the spirit of God.

[00:15:56]Not so much about beliefs in God, but his experience of God that shaped everything that he did.

[00:16:05]And um so I just uh and I think in our explorations here on Second Saturday, we are pondering what's really going on in Christianity and to be discerning and um uh as need be critiquing of a master narrative that may or may not be um speaking to the heart of the matter. Okay, so September um I talked a little bit about the overarching title for this year, Starlight invitation, pierce the 12 colon in dreams begin responsibilities, but how ambiguous actually that title for this year was. Okay, October we had with us Art Dwey and his title for his session with us was called Conversations on the Edge of Things and I borrowed that for the topic uh the overall topic for our conversation today of the conversation on the edge of things. And um just in brief, Art talked a lot about how do we image the real?

[00:17:18]How do we image or imagine the real? and he asked questions about what is hope and he shared poetry and a number of poems of his own. Um and he borrowed quite a bit from um the Jesuit theologian William Lynch and his book images of hope. Okay. So um Art Dwey started to talk to us about what is real, what is hope, what kind of language talks about that. So in November I explored more some of the um items in William Lynch's book Images of Hope colon imagination as healer of the hopeless.

[00:18:07]Okay that's the title of William Lynch's book Images of Hope Imagination as healer of the hopeless. Okay. And I uh identified a number of points uh that Lynch made and some of those are going to come up in just a few minutes in terms of what I'm learning this year.

[00:18:29]Okay.

[00:18:30]Uh in December, Jack Caputo came um to be with us and he talked about uh the imperative of putting supernatural theism out of business. How important it is that we get rid of thinking about God in terms of supernatural theism. some god, all knowing, omnipotent up there out there. Okay? And how uh uh you know dishonest that is, how um distracting that is. Um so he he he and and we here at Second Saturday uh one of the things that we are uh working hard to do is to rid ourselves of this notion that God is about and Christianity is about the power of God's supernatural capacities and supernatural theism.

[00:19:22]In January and February, I gave a shot at unpacking Jack Caputo's book, What to Believe: 12 Brief Lessons in Radical Theology.

[00:19:35]And um I uh you know, I I gave it a shot. There are sort of two sections of part one and two actually. It's called week one and two in Jack's book, What to Believe. And so that was our focus for January and February. Um, even though I mean Jack actually wrote that book for us, for folks like us, okay, this was not uh intended for an academic audience. And even though Jack intended that book to be much more accessible about what what is radical theology, I I still think it's a difficult read in some ways. And um, so it's a it's it's it's a slim volume, but deceptively slim. Um but I still think that book what to what to believe question mark what to believe what do we believe um it is an important introduction to radical theology and to the work of Jackaputo so I I really encourage u for those of you who are interested in that stuff and in Jack's work and theopoetics and radical theology I still think that's an important book to turn to. In March, we had with us Mark Oakley. Uh he's the dean of Suffach Cathedral in um uh in in in London. Um I love this guy. Um Mark Oakley is a wonderful uh human being, a beautiful writer. He the title of his session was love of God unarmed and disarming.

[00:21:08]And I think that he borrowed that from a phrase of uh Poplio uh but God unarmed and disarming and Mark and I I encourage you to uh return to that session again. It was in March uh with Mark Oakley. He talked a lot about his own experiences and uh and storied them for us with us and emphasize that God is whatever we think God is, it's experiential.

[00:21:40]God is experience not concepts.

[00:21:46]Um and he embodied that. He embodies that in the way he talks and reflects on God and his own experiences and his reflections and just the manner of the man um just I think kind of put us in touch with something and so um I just highly encourage you to um uh take some time with Mark Oakley. He's also written a number of books. Splash of words is the one that was my first read of his.

[00:22:14]In April, uh we had Jack Caputo and Brandon Scott talking about resurrection and maybe resurrection in a way that we have not thought about before. Brandon and uh offered some uh sort of where did that come from in in the tradition and in the narratives and what are the words used to describe resurrection and and Jack spoke about that uh being sort of theopoetic language. Okay. And some of you said that you thought that that was one of the most important sessions we've ever had here on Second Saturday. So, it was wonderful to have Jack and Brandon with us. And because of a technical glitch, these things happen sometimes.

[00:22:58]That session wasn't recorded.

[00:23:01]All of our sessions are recorded and they're on our website and the marcus jborg.org website and then they're posted on YouTube. But here is this uh session um which some thought was the best one we'd ever had and it didn't get recorded. So as a result they are willing to come back and do it again. And so they will be with us next month in June. That'll be our final session for this program here. And they will talk again about resurrection. They will review some of the things that they talked about.

[00:23:35]Brandon said that he has even uh improved some of his um uh slides and he and Jack will have a little bit more conversation this time. So even though for those of you who are with us in April, I'm delighted. But come back again in June because um I for one was looking forward to looking at that session again. I needed it. And um so we will have them back to talk about resurrection. And I think it's just sort of interesting and maybe even poetic that we're ending the year on resurrection which is maybe where it all begins. Okay. So, uh that was um our year in brief and maybe in just naming some of those topics some things are coming up in your own memory. So now what I want to do is and and not in any particular order but is simply to uh bring out some phrases that have struck me during this program year and uh it'll also give you an idea of kind of my own learning edge. Okay.

[00:24:41]So um here we go. Um, the noble dream of perfection makes cynics of us all.

[00:24:57]The noble dream of perfection makes cynics of us all.

[00:25:05]And that is very much descriptive of the Delmare Schwarz poem. Okay. William Lynch talked about that. So did art.

[00:25:13]Omnipotence destroys our hope.

[00:25:21]Hope imagines the real.

[00:25:27]Now that's a quote from Martin Buber.

[00:25:30]Hope imagines the real. I loved that quote and it helped to put hope in a much clearer category for me.

[00:25:44]And then there is this quote as well.

[00:25:47]Imagination is in service of reality.

[00:25:55]Imagination is in service of reality of what is possible. Okay. And that was very instructive for me too. I think some of us think of imagination as fantasy and whatever but William Lynch suggests that imagination is in service of reality. Okay, imagination then is the ally of hope.

[00:26:25]We talk a lot about imagination here and in terms of theopoetics. Um, so imagination is the ally of hope and the enemy of the absolutizing spirit.

[00:26:40]And let me just say a little bit about the absolutizing spirit. Again, this comes from William Lynch.

[00:26:46]It's an instinct in us that tends to be I mean it absolutizes. It's rigid. It's closed. Tends to be critical of everything. It's very certain and certainty Lynch suggests is a false hope.

[00:27:06]The absolutizing spirit tends to be loud, extravagant, has extravagant expectations.

[00:27:15]It actually does not address the human because its insistence is on perfection and perfection is unattainable for the human. Okay. So the absolutizing spirit is um is something that's psychological but it's also can be cultural. Uh it's dogmatic. It's it's absolute in its intensity and in its claims.

[00:27:48]And as uh I said just a moment ago, hope imagination is the ally of hope and imagination is the enemy of the absolutizing spirit because imagination is in service of reality and the absolute spirit is not.

[00:28:14]So, this is stuff that I'm It's like, help me think this through. It just is helping me think.

[00:28:21]And then here here's an affirmation.

[00:28:24]Hope is the very heart and center of a human being.

[00:28:30]Well, I I I think so, too. But it was just so nice to see that written so succinctly. Hope is the very heart and center of a human being.

[00:28:43]So, we're born with it, right? And I also found this very interesting and instructive. Hope knows its limits.

[00:28:56]Okay? Hope knows its limits. So, it's not claiming to be omnipotent.

[00:29:03]It knows its limits.

[00:29:10]Hope is a way out.

[00:29:15]And that's worth our talking about. What do we what what does that mean? Hope is a way out. Thinking is never the way out.

[00:29:24]And we do a lot of thinking here.

[00:29:28]William Lynch also says that the unwell, those of the unwell are inclined to absolutizing.

[00:29:37]We tend to exaggerate and to make something that is not perfect or something that's bothering us bigger than it really is, louder than it really is, taking up more space than it really should. Okay. He also has a phrase that struck me, desparing certainty.

[00:29:59]I mean, how many of us say no certainty?

[00:30:01]you know, we all want certainty and that's that's what makes us nervous about this new post, you know, uh, modern way of think, you know, nothing is certain and so but, uh, and I think this is Lynch's pairing that there's a a kind of despair in certainty because desparing hope concerns itself with certainties.

[00:30:30]Desparing hope concerns itself with certainties.

[00:30:38]In other words, there are no certainties. Okay.

[00:30:43]Um, how do we imagine the real? That was one of Art's questions. I thought that was a really interesting question. How do we imagine the real?

[00:30:52]Theopoetics does not explain, it describes.

[00:31:02]What is a dream?

[00:31:05]History and reality.

[00:31:10]What is a dream? History and reality.

[00:31:15]And I really appreciated art's definition of theology.

[00:31:19]Theology is the way that we talk or reflect together about our depth experiences as human beings on this planet.

[00:31:32]And he noted that he didn't use the word God there at all.

[00:31:37]By the way, let me just flag that depth experiences is a big theme that has emerged for me this year.

[00:31:45]Um I uh it was a new phrase to me that I had not seen before. It's from Shakespeare.

[00:31:52]Seeing feelingly seeing feelingly. And my dear dear friend Yarm Yarmi just that kind of seeing feelingly kind of gives him the willies. But I I I love the coupling myself.

[00:32:09]Listen to this. Truth is unforgettable.

[00:32:15]I'd never thought of it like that. Truth is unforgettable.

[00:32:22]It's not ideological totalism or absolutism, but it is unforgettable.

[00:32:28]I It's just it's got me thinking. Okay.

[00:32:32]Imagination is without the boundaries of the absolute. Now, those are words I never would have put together.

[00:32:43]imagination without the boundaries of the absolute. So here's this notion again that the absolute is a closed system.

[00:32:55]It says this is it. This is what's possible. This is it.

[00:32:59]And imagination functions outside of that.

[00:33:05]It functions outside of the absolute.

[00:33:10]Um, this is a line from a poem of Sheamus Hanees and I um I love it and I can never hear it often enough. This ordinary life is the marvelous.

[00:33:26]I need reminding of that. This ordinary life is the marvelous.

[00:33:33]The future will only change if you alter the narrative.

[00:33:40]The future will only change if you alter the narrative.

[00:33:45]Uh the depth dimension is us in us is structured for more life. Okay. Now again this is a really powerful affirmation. It's like hope uh is at the heart of the human being. Right? the depth dimension, our ability to experience that depth dimension is is structured for more life. It doesn't deny the life cycle. It doesn't say there is no death.

[00:34:16]It doesn't say, you know, I mean, it it it respects the uh iterations of the life cycle which includes death.

[00:34:24]But the depth dimension in us is structured for more life.

[00:34:29]I mean, I've been I've been pondering that. Okay.

[00:34:33]And again, these are affirmations that I've just that have really helped me this year. The deep structure of our hearts is possibility.

[00:34:47]That our hearts are structured for possibility.

[00:34:56]Radical theology is about experience, not propositions.

[00:35:06]And I think I already shared this one, but we can't think our way out.

[00:35:13]Again, that just needs unpacking. I'm not explaining anything. I'm just saying this is a phrase that has really struck me. We can't think our way out.

[00:35:22]And here's something that's also really important in theopoetics and in radical theology.

[00:35:30]The emphasis is on omni potentiality, not omnipotence.

[00:35:39]Okay? So there's a real difference there. Omni potentiality, not omnipotence.

[00:35:48]and elsewhere I think I'll get to this that in a sense God is omni potentiality not omnipotence uh returning again to the question what's really going on in religion what's really going on in religion and I think that's related to why do we tell ourselves the stories that we do um Jack will say uh time and again don't look up like in thinking about God don't look Look down. I mean, look to the depths.

[00:36:20]Same thing with resurrection. Don't look up.

[00:36:25]Look to the depths.

[00:36:27]I love the phrase theopoetic space.

[00:36:32]And it behooves us to ask what is theopoetic space?

[00:36:37]I think it's where so much of the imagination where it lives. Okay.

[00:36:43]Theopoetic space.

[00:36:45]Um, God is the name of the depths of our own experience.

[00:36:54]I just think that's an interesting definition of God. God is the name of the depths of our own experience.

[00:37:02]Um, and that is the mystical sense of life. It is to be attentive to the depths of things.

[00:37:12]And Jack and many others insist that we're born with that capacity. We're born with it. We come in with it. That's why he says we're all mystics.

[00:37:23]We all have can apprehend experience the quote unquote depths. Okay. So I mean it's a fair question. What are the depths? What is the what is a depth experience?

[00:37:38]Thinking is not propositional in theopoetics. Okay, that's another way of saying what I did earlier about theopoetics is not about concepts.

[00:37:47]Theopoetics is about experience.

[00:37:50]Okay, so thinking is not propositional in theopoetics.

[00:37:57]Thinking is something else.

[00:37:59]other thing that's really been in in addition to my being more sensitive to the mass to master narratives is um axiology as sort of a technical word which just means what do we what do we value what do we love it's great it's Augustine's great question what do we love when we say we love our god I mean that's loaded what do we think god is what what do we love when we say I love my god you know there's so much to unpack there but what do we value what matters most what are we willing to in a sense risk our lives for what do we love that's axiology okay axio value right and I think that axiology is really an important thing to keep in mind when we think about Christianity or theological effort and all of that it it it it has to address the issue of axial ideology, what matters, what do we love and why, and what are we willing to risk knowing that there's no certainty. Okay, this is all stuff that I keep reflecting on and reflecting on even more this year.

[00:39:14]Uh, another phrase that comes up is it's not what we believe, but it's what happens.

[00:39:22]What happens? And that is related to the event that Jack talks about. Okay? that it's not what we believe, but what happens?

[00:39:30]And again, what's really going on in the name of God?

[00:39:39]Uh, an important thing for me to remember, radical theology is not an attack.

[00:39:46]Okay? So it's not like radical theology is smash the state you know radical theology is not an attack but it's an invitation to rethink or restage or reimagine or reinvent or reinterpret.

[00:40:02]Okay. So radical theology isn't set up to it doesn't want to be its own thing but it invites us to reimagine reframe reunder if you will. Okay.

[00:40:16]Um, for some reason this year, this little phrase that is in uh in the letter of Acts, it's just it's four little words. But again, I love the succinctness of this that kind of cuts through sometimes all my wonderings. God is not far.

[00:40:35]Jack will say this often, too. God is not far.

[00:40:40]Another phrase in symbols we are making contact with the depths.

[00:40:49]Symbols remind us of something else.

[00:40:55]Talking about God does not come down to concepts, propositions or arguments.

[00:41:03]I mean when we talk about God, we do it in images and in metaphors and in figures and in parables and in paradoxes and in stories.

[00:41:18]We tend to talk about God in terms of concepts, propositions, and arguments.

[00:41:22]But radical theology will say to us, "No, that's not how we talk about God."

[00:41:28]Okay.

[00:41:30]Um, the mystical, you know, when people talk about the mystical is not farther but closer. Whatever the mystical is, it's not farther. It's not up there.

[00:41:40]It's not out there somewhere. It's closer. Embedded in time and space.

[00:41:49]I think that's right.

[00:41:52]For the religious sensitivity, it is the depth dimension that is the divine theos. Radical theology probes the depth dimensions.

[00:42:06]In other words, pay attention to what is going on.

[00:42:11]Um, when I think about radical theology, I think for me that was really helpful.

[00:42:17]It's about the depth dimensions. And then again we need to unpack what are we talking about? Radical theology loosens the grip of a tight theism.

[00:42:30]And that's where I got a I I think a little clarity on weak theology that weak theology it's because it it loosen you know it has loosened that classical theological master narrative. It has loosened those assumptions.

[00:42:50]um and it invites us to think about theology differently. Okay. So in that it's not that it it's weak in a pjorative sense but radical theology as weak theology it's because the claims and grip of classical theism have been loosened.

[00:43:07]And then where does that take us?

[00:43:11]Um I I appreciated this uh sentence that I came across. the need for a supreme somebody.

[00:43:18]What's going on?

[00:43:21]Why do we feel we need a supreme somebody?

[00:43:29]Truth is narrative, not propositional.

[00:43:36]The event is what is coming to pass, what is to come.

[00:43:43]And I like this phrase because it's again it's a reminder to me what is sounding from the depths before it is drowned out by the supernatural or the highly rational.

[00:43:58]What is going on in the depths? Pay attention to that before it gets drowned out.

[00:44:05]Because what's going on in the depths is what's what is really going on.

[00:44:11]Again and again we come across this phrase think differently or dare to think differently.

[00:44:17]This has I think too this has something to do with uh challenging the master narrative master narratives. Okay. Dare to think differently. I remember when I was discerning my own call to priesthood. I remember reading a book of Nell Morton's um and uh she's the one that talks about hearing one another to speech which I think is a great phrase and in this book she said if you're going to go into ministry and stuff this was in the 60s I didn't come into min I wasn't ordained until uh the '9s 1990 but um Nell Morton said do it differently or don't do it at all and I remember when I read Nell's book I didn't know what it would mean to do it differently.

[00:45:02]I I I just I didn't know. And I think now that I'm retired, I'm starting to get an idea.

[00:45:09]Um, another phrase that caught me, uh, a story is a hermeneutical skill. Okay.

[00:45:15]Now, hermeneutics means interpretation.

[00:45:19]Um, and having a certain ear and eye to interpret it to interpret. But a story is a hermeneutical skill. It's an interpretive skill. I like that. Uh I love this. Um and in a sense, this is something we all know, but I when I see it in brief, it always arrests me.

[00:45:38]Christianity is not absolute truth.

[00:45:43]I mean, every culture has its own way of talking about what matters most. Okay?

[00:45:48]But so Christianity is not absolute truth. Use that as the opening line in a sermon.

[00:45:54]Um, thinking, this is a quote of Shellik, thinking is always too late.

[00:46:05]What does that mean? But I'm caught by it. Thinking is always too late.

[00:46:11]Radical theology is axiology.

[00:46:15]Okay. And then these phrases uh two phrases which I have really affected the way I I'm thinking about things this year. We we are responsible for the history of God.

[00:46:32]We are part of the history of God.

[00:46:39]And then the question will God have been?

[00:46:44]These are questions that Jackaputo asks and again I would not have asked those questions without his help.

[00:46:56]Will God have been? I mean we are responsible for the history of God. We are part of the history of God. Now those statements are not reductionistic.

[00:47:07]I just think they're provocative and important for us. Okay.

[00:47:11]uh the depth dimension is omni potentiality.

[00:47:16]When we say what is the depth dimension, one of the sentences I've come across is that the depth dimension is omni potentiality.

[00:47:26]As I said earlier, axiology is what we love. Radical theology is about life.

[00:47:35]And how often am I trying to explain radical theology propositionally?

[00:47:41]Anyway, radical theology is about life.

[00:47:43]Life is about hope in life as long as there is life.

[00:47:53]God is not less than personal but more.

[00:48:01]For those of us who wonder about does all this mean that I can't address God as you or as person you know remember I mean I am reminded of this that I think Jack said this God is not less than personal but more the truth is theopoooetic God is the deepest repository of possibility interesting definition. Okay.

[00:48:32]Life to come is not eternal life.

[00:48:39]That there is infinite depth in persons.

[00:48:44]Again, this is this is a powerful affirmation around which I'm building my sense of hope.

[00:48:52]Infinite depth in persons. There is infinite depth in persons.

[00:48:58]The task of rad radical theology is to have ears to hear and eyes to see. Okay, you can do without what you wish.

[00:49:05]Resurrection truth is theopoetic.

[00:49:11]Now that may or may not be clarified for some of us, but it caught me.

[00:49:16]Event is experiential, something that shatters our horizon of expectation.

[00:49:24]Okay.

[00:49:26]In other words, event is related to the possib to possibility or the impossibility of something and it becomes possible.

[00:49:34]Event is experiential and it's something that shatters our horizon of expectation.

[00:49:42]So even though we're moving away from omnipotence, we're really opening up to omni potentiality.

[00:49:49]Okay.

[00:49:51]and and that is much and it is open omnipotence is more of a closed absolutizing notion. Okay.

[00:50:02]Theopoetics Jack calls it the heart of a heartless world.

[00:50:09]Another affirmation, the givenness of possibility. And as some of the things I've been mentioning, possibilities related to what God is, possibilities related to what is human, possibilities related to life. It's like it's the it's a giveness. Possibilities. Okay. Um here's another affirmation that I loved reading. Fairness is built into the human. I think that Brandon said that fairness is built into the human.

[00:50:42]So what has happened to us? Okay. But you know it's like hope is at the center of the human being. Fairness is built into being a human.

[00:50:53]Um this I don't also know what this means but I'm intrigued by it.

[00:50:56]Resurrection reflects the deep structure of our hearts.

[00:51:02]And if resurrection and Jack and Brandon will clarify this or help us help me think this through more next time is response is a response to suffering and injustice. Resurrection to stand up.

[00:51:17]Refle resurrection reflects a deep structure of our hearts. Okay. So this is this I think this is related to wanting more life and this instinct for fairness and this sense of possibility.

[00:51:30]Okay. Again, an affirmation, a fundamental human response is we can move beyond this. We will find a way.

[00:51:43]Okay. Um I love this um note to self, humility and weakness of thinking.

[00:51:51]The humility and weakness of thinking, it's not the be all and end.

[00:51:57]Metaphorical language is all we have.

[00:52:01]Every age is marked by its own imaginary. Now I had come across this notion before. I think Amos Wilder is one of the ones who talk about this. But every age is is is is marked by its own view of the world and it and it changes.

[00:52:16]Okay. Every age is marked by its own imaginary. But that has gotten me wondering what is the imaginary of our time? I'm not sure. I hope it's not AI.

[00:52:26]But every age is marked by its own imaginary. I think that's important because it's contextual for then how we come to address all of these issues.

[00:52:36]Uh the master narratives of divine intervention are ideologies of theocracies.

[00:52:47]Let me remind us we want democracy not a theocracy.

[00:52:53]weak theology. In weak theology, there is no master narrative, no guarantee.

[00:53:03]The onus is on us.

[00:53:07]More life is what we seek.

[00:53:11]Radical theology is not about fear of God's judgment, but the fear that we will stop loving.

[00:53:23]Radical theology is not about fear of God's judgment, but that we will stop loving.

[00:53:32]So, I'm going to read just a couple of quotes and um then I'm going to turn this over to you. Um there there's uh here was the lead into the quote. Um don't let hopelessness contaminate hope.

[00:53:46]Okay, that's from William Lynch and he quotes GK Chesterton. Okay. So, the theme here is don't let hopelessness contaminate hope. Another way of putting this says GK Chester, I don't care where the water goes if it doesn't go into the wine.

[00:54:05]I don't care where the water goes if it doesn't go into the wine.

[00:54:09]Gerta a quote, "Be aware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong."

[00:54:19]Be aware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong.

[00:54:25]Um this is from William Lynch. Desparing hope concerns itself with certainties. I mentioned that earlier.

[00:54:34]Jack has said if we were aquatic creatures, God would be the water, not the biggest fish in the sea. I love that. If we were aquatic features, God would be the water, not the biggest fish in the sea.

[00:54:54]Again, what is the depth dimension?

[00:55:00]And then two things that a poem teaches us, and this is a quote from Gregory our two things poems teach us.

[00:55:09]Death of the body, better accept it.

[00:55:14]Death of the heart better not.

[00:55:21]Okay, so that's just a roll out of a number of things that as I was looking over notes over this last year, I pulled out some of those sentences that really kind of caught me. And these thoughts are shaping the way that I am thinking about Christianity in and for the 21st century.

[00:55:44]Um it's uh and these are sort of learning uh this is all a part of my own learning which yes I I bring to our conversations but I just want you to know I'm on a learning curve with all of this wanting to think differently and dare to imagine.

[00:56:03]So I would love to hear from any number of you about uh well one thing what you think is the depth depth dimension and experience of it.

[00:56:16]Uh even the thought that God is more than personal okay that we really can't talk about God propositionally but we try that's what that's what classical theology is about. Um, I made note of several affirmations about the human and about potentiality and possibility and and you know what's what's born in the human spirit. Um, and I think that what we affirm about humanity is really really crucial. Uh, Christianity tends to say we are you know sinful all sinful. We are by nature sinful and unclean. I just think that's a hell of a way to to start um the conversation. But anyway, I think key affirmations that we can really hold to are foundational. It's about hope and fairness and possibility. Um, I'm curious to know how our conversations here on Second Saturday, how they're shaping you or about Christianity or about the stories that we tell. Um, uh, is it helpful? Um, uh, yes or no or something in between. Um what do you make of theopoetic space? Um you know what what do you want to share with one another about what's what's coming to you in in in this year of being together and reflecting with Art and Mark Oakley and Jack and Brandon and I mean what's stirring in you?

[00:57:43]And um and and if Marcus were here, I mean, he'd be wanting to emphasize the fact that Jesus was a spirit person. He wasn't interested in propositions. He's interested in an experiential reality which is God. So, um so I'd love to hear your thoughts or questions or musings about what is striking you this year and does it matter and where is it taking your thinking? So, and I hope that you know my my thoughts were not intended to create its own narrative, but I just wanted you to I I just decided that I would just uh mark um note some phrases that really caught my attention and are continuing to. So, okay. Um, we know the courtesies of listening and speaking about taking time to be in God's presence and listening to others with your entire self and not interrupting and pausing between speakers and form don't formulate what you want to say when somebody else is talking. Um, speak for yourself, your own thoughts, your own feelings. Refer to your own experiences. Try not to be hypothetical. Don't challenge what others say. That's actually not what this is about right now. Um, I have to remind myself of that. Uh, listen to the group as a whole. I always learn a lot from listening to the group as a whole.

[00:59:11]Um, let somebody else speak um before you speak a second time and and again hold your desires and opinions, even your convictions lightly.

[00:59:22]Um, so, um, I' I'd love to hear your thoughts and Jeff, I' I'd love you to invite us to to continue the conversation.

[00:59:35]>> Wow, Maryanne, you've got my head spinning again.

[00:59:40]>> That's my intent. And, uh, it's not linear. I mean, I wish I could just, you know, give you three points and say to you now, what do you think? But I just sort of gave a plethora of thoughts and I hope that it will evoke the same from you.

[00:59:53]>> Well, yeah. Here's a new here's a new quote. Reality is not linear.

[00:59:58]>> Well, there you go.

[00:59:59]>> So, I think you're in good company.

[01:00:02]>> Yeah. Well, mine isn't as is obvious.

[01:00:06]And as you well know, you know me well enough to know that I've for most of my life I've thought, you know, there is something kind of wrong with me. And there may be, but partly to do with the fact that I'm not a linear thinker. And so, um, I'm starting to appreciate its own limits, um, but what it is. And, uh, and I, um, I am very drawn to those who are more linear than I. I, I mean, so >> there are some linear thinkers in the group that will speak up today.

[01:00:35]>> I love I loved your Jack quote about if we were water creatures, God would be the water and not the biggest fish. Is >> that great? I love it. Yes, >> Jack who's so intellectually sophisticated and and >> now that's a quotable quote from Jack.

[01:00:53]>> It is. It is for sure.

[01:00:57]>> So, just a quick reminder everybody um we're asking that you keep your comments to two minutes which means that it's very helpful for you to compose your thoughts before you raise your hand. And um I'll keep track in terms of time. And a way of gently reminding you that your 2 minutes is is up is just that I'll put up a finger like this. And that just says it's time for you to wrap up what you're saying so we can give the num maximum number of people an opportunity to interact. So let's start with Susan Demo.

[01:01:32]>> Great.

[01:01:32]>> Susan, can you unmute?

[01:01:35]>> Good morning.

[01:01:36]>> Good morning.

[01:01:37]>> Hi Susan.

[01:01:39]>> Hi. Um, all of this always is is so wonderful and stretching and several things hit me. There's so much here and I'm not a linear thinker either. So, I struggle with Jack and I'm thank you for interpreting so much of his work. Um, couple of things. um experiential imagination is in the service of reality. And that made me think of being in elementary school instead of looking at the chalkboard looking out the window.

[01:02:19]>> And the depth dimension um is structure for more life. And that made me think of living life abundantly, not with wealth or things, but noticing and being in the space. And um the theop poetic space is always something that I'm I'm struggling with. Um God is the something depth of our own experience, the mystical sense of life. And when I started this journey for myself, I thought I want to be a mystic, but I don't know how. And I I also struggled.

[01:03:05]>> You're you're well on your way in my opinion.

[01:03:08]>> Symbol and metaphor is just a big stretch. I love Chesterton and Gerta.

[01:03:14]And I remember when um Oakley was with us that we all were kind of speechless for a while because it was such an amazing thing. I wonder if you could expand just a little bit on the concept of experiential.

[01:03:32]I know what the the the hard stuff was because I was raised in it, but the experiential is still ephemeral and I want I want a little I don't want it concrete, but what does that mean?

[01:03:50]I will love hearing from other people on this. But in in short, where I go when I think of the experiential, I go to the senses.

[01:04:01]>> Okay.

[01:04:03]>> Um what I apprehend through the senses.

[01:04:10]>> Yes.

[01:04:10]>> So in a sense it has more to do with with body than with image. And and I want to be careful there because I play a lot with image. But I think that the experiential that it's it's very related to as human beings to our body and to our senses.

[01:04:32]>> You know, um it's like when Rilka said, you know, um you know, people bind you to image and gesture. He says, I would rather sense you.

[01:04:44]Okay. Um, so I, so that's my short response to experiential, but I'm making a little note that that's something maybe we should explore more. What the what are we talking about with the experiential >> so that you could feel, sense, taste, you know, like even P with the Meline, you know, that cookie and that he felt like he had sort of experienced a depth.

[01:05:09]It's it's interesting that in in in trauma um they tell you to ground yourself by senses. Five things that you see, four things that you touch, three things you smell, taste, feel.

[01:05:28]>> Thank you. bringing it back into our senses and and not some absolutizing spirit >> who's going to say, "Oh, this is, you know, this is what's troubling you, you know, and and and and it >> just doesn't help."

[01:05:45]>> No. No.

[01:05:46]>> No.

[01:05:47]>> Yeah. So, yeah. you. You know, Susie, something that that if I can jump in here for just a second, something that you brought up when you said um that it's the child who's looking out the window instead of at the chalkboard. I was an elementary school teacher and I can tell you, you know, children are intuitive and they believe who you are, not what you say.

[01:06:13]>> And so that that I think that really ties into experience. Children are grounded in experience.

[01:06:20]>> They have to learn propositions.

[01:06:25]>> That's wonderful.

[01:06:27]>> Ah, that's really interesting, Jeff. We have to learn propositions, but we're born to experience.

[01:06:36]>> Very interesting.

[01:06:39]>> Okay.

[01:06:41]Okay.

[01:06:41]>> Okay. Sally Woodard. Sally.

[01:06:44]>> Thanks, Susie.

[01:06:45]>> Yeah. Thanks, Susie.

[01:06:51]>> Good morning. I'm trying to stay linear.

[01:06:55]I've written some stuff down. So, >> I highly recommend that, too.

[01:06:59]>> Thank you for what you wrote to said today. Um, this absolutizing certainty is an interesting term that I appreciate. Um, and I've heard and I'm attracted to being called and comforted to live in ambiguity, which I think as a young person I thought it meant I was wishy-washy and and I I live in ambiguity and it's been lovely to hear that it's okay to live in ambiguity. Um, and the whole but I'm on the theme of there's a lot of t God talk today. God is experiential. Um, God is the name of the depths of our own experience.

[01:07:40]And this brings me to tomorrow, Sunday, church, the lectionary, and children's time. And we're talking about, as you mentioned in Acts, that God is not far and continuing into in in him. In God we live and move and have our being.

[01:08:00]How do we talk to 10-year-old children about God?

[01:08:05]>> Remembering we're responsible for the history of God? And >> if we don't provide some kind of concrete, >> will God have been all those things?

[01:08:17]It's like what do we say to children about God? Oh, and yet I see that thing about the ocean.

[01:08:26]Earli talks about if God is the ocean, we're not fish. We're the wave.

[01:08:34]>> I like it.

[01:08:35]>> Yeah, we're part of that field.

[01:08:37]>> We're a ripple and we ripple through.

[01:08:39]And anyway, so talking to kids about God.

[01:08:46]How like it's an in that's where I'm stuck because it's taken me all my years to try and figure it out.

[01:08:55]and you go, "Okay, so how do we introduce this?" And >> I love the question.

[01:09:02]>> I love the answer when you give it to me.

[01:09:08]I love the question and you know and it reminds me of that story and I know that you're all familiar with this but the the little girl four-year-old girl who goes in to see her little brother you know who was her newborn brother and you know her parents are listening in on that you know and and she says to her you know she's little still four and she goes in and she says to her little brother tell me about God I've almost forgotten.

[01:09:30]>> Yeah. So I I love your how do we talk about >> and is talking about God.

[01:09:40]>> Jeff, do you um being the the teacher that you are, do you have just a a thought you want to add to this >> which is so important. Yeah.

[01:09:50]>> I think it's interesting that the question is how do we talk to children about God instead of how do we listen to children about God? Because I think Carol, my wife, uh, taught godly play for years. And one of the things that she would say in her godly play trainings is that biologically adults produce children, but spiritually children produce adults.

[01:10:20]>> And most of us don't grow up until we become like children.

[01:10:30]Yeah.

[01:10:32]>> It's interesting, Jeff, that you should say that because you know that little story, you know, asking the the the baby, tell me, right?

[01:10:39]>> Exactly.

[01:10:40]>> Is there something that we can learn about that experience, that sensuality, that immediacy, that you know is right here. You know, I remember this little boy who was visiting us with his parents and he was he was also about four and our dog, one of our dogs, Abby, was walking outside and Felix was at the front door and he looked out the door and he said, "There's Abby.

[01:11:04]She's walking and in that moment it's like oh my go there's Abby and she's walking >> walking >> and and it's just like I I for a moment I think I kind of saw what Phoenix saw.

[01:11:20]It's like you know >> so tell me about >> Yes. Oh, >> but I I think it's and you know, not and not only, you know, talking to children about God, but talking to one another about how do we talk to one another?

[01:11:36]>> Yeah.

[01:11:39]>> Yeah.

[01:11:40]>> Carry on.

[01:11:40]>> I like Lynn's idea there. We'll just go up and be quiet with the kids and say, "Okay, that was God."

[01:11:47]>> Or say to them, "Tell me about God. I've >> tell you about God."

[01:11:51]>> Yes.

[01:11:52]>> Yeah. Ask me about God. I've almost forgotten.

[01:11:56]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:58]>> I bet you they'll come up with something.

[01:12:01]>> Thank Thank you, Sally.

[01:12:03]>> Yeah.

[01:12:03]>> Becky Sheller. Becky, do you want to unmute?

[01:12:07]>> Yeah. Thank you. Um, so Marian, I'm going to answer your general qu the the the general question first and then I'll go with this specific one. The general question, what am I getting about this is I am grasping. Um I feel like I am um I'm really intrigued by it. It's the only place that I have right now where I can like look at these questions. Um and um what I wish for is a remedial group like this because I just am it's just um and so in terms of specific question um I'm kind of choosing but just to give you an idea um if I wasn't choosing I would be asking about an potentiality um about love about death um but I am going to kind of tag on Sus's question about um experience. I think that's what it was. Um and you were talking about experiencing God is through the senses.

[01:13:12]Um and I just want to follow up on that to say that um I'm still lost. Um I mean we all experience life through the senses to some degree. Maybe we have filters or whatever, but um um I mean we're selective about what how the senses that we experience God. If you say uh people in the same room and you say, "What's your what what do you sense about this room?" We'd all have different things to say. Um so there's a filter there that I don't quite understand. Um um so I don't know how to ask the question except to say could you say a little bit more about how to experience God through the senses.

[01:14:05]>> Interesting. Um I'm just making a note to myself because this is how to experience >> or what are the filters that you use or I I don't I don't know. I I don't know.

[01:14:17]I don't have the question. I think that's also really important because I think that that culturally there are so many things that come at us to uh that demand our attention >> that we um we don't in a sense like P we or like seeing you know seeing Abby walking >> or um you know Mark and I were sitting one time and you know his cat Denny he he just said this is a cat of God >> and it's >> what did he see?

[01:14:53]He saw something. And then this is related, I think, to the quote unquote depths, but I don't want this to sound esoteric. I think that it's like um as Sheamus Haney says, this world is the marvelous.

[01:15:07]>> So, how do we experience this?

[01:15:12]I I mean, this is other traditions do this better than we do. Slow down.

[01:15:18]pay attention. I mean, what is it to pay attention? I mean, we might be trying to pay attention to this cat and not think cat of I mean, not experience the cat is a cat of God, you know? It's like this is just a cat. I'm a dog person, you know? I mean, so what what it's a great question. What gets in our way of experiencing God when Acts suggests that God is that in which we live and move and have our being? really. So, what are we talking about? And that's why I love the question, what's what's really going on?

[01:15:54]>> And I would say something is going on.

[01:15:56]And every so often I get a whiff of it or a sense of it or something chills me or a hunger for it or um a restlessness for you know I don't know what it is but there's some there's it may not be certain but there's certainly something going on >> and I'm just at a stage of my life where I'm willing to throw out that kind of language even though it's not very specific but it's it's something that I sense And actually I have sensed this since I was a kid. I think this is part of what it is to be a human being. As we talked about in one session, the realization and every so often it really catches me that we are here at all.

[01:16:39]>> Yeah.

[01:16:39]>> I mean every so often it's like I mean what the hell is this? You know that we are here at all. And then sometimes when I have an awareness of that it just it in that nano it's a nancond and sometimes longer but it changes everything.

[01:16:56]So, >> yeah. So, this talks about without a why. It's like, what the heck does that mean?

[01:17:05]>> But every so often when I get in touch with something, it's like it's not why.

[01:17:09]It's it's just that, oh my gosh, here we are. Here I am, Becky.

[01:17:17]And so I'm kind of like hearing and I don't I I I tend to oversimplify things so I'm sorry but like the miracle of life to be aware of the miracle of life and and and then I also think about um the commonality of cruelty. Abs I I hear you and and and I hear you >> and see that there I is I mean yeah I don't I don't know like go ahead. No, no, no. I I um I'm I think it's really important what you're saying, the commonality of cruelty and then if if I'm going to believe what like William Lynch says, the commonality of hope in all of us or the commonality that what Brandon said, we're all built with a sense of fairness, >> right?

[01:18:12]>> So, what happens >> what's happening in our relationships?

[01:18:17]What's what's h what what is happening?

[01:18:20]And um I I'm gonna go so far as to say that whatever God is, it's all in the God is all in the mix.

[01:18:35]>> In the mix >> and then what is worthy of what do we think is worthy of the name of God?

[01:18:44]Because that in which we live and move and have our being is ambiguous. It's all over the place.

[01:18:48]>> Yeah.

[01:18:49]So then you know this thing about agency. So what is our agency? And and I and I don't want to talk about will right now but it's like and in the midst of all of this we have some agency and we live we choose. We act we respond.

[01:19:09]I mean there's a part of me that just says there's something deep in us that is that responds to to use just one word mystery. The mystery of all of this, you know, the mysterium tremendous at fascin which draws us but also terrifies us.

[01:19:25]I mean, as as Gregor says, you know, death, don't don't forget it. You know, the death of, you know, the body.

[01:19:34]Yep. The death of the heart.

[01:19:39]Don't give up on it, you know. So, I mean, all of that is in play for me, but none of this is, you know, this is my sort of vague nonlinear suggestive way of thinking and therefore talking. So, I'm not actually the best voice for this. Um, but I I I love the fact that you are in detention of it.

[01:20:03]>> I want some answers.

[01:20:07]>> And listen, there are plenty of places you can go and get them, you know.

[01:20:12]So, but be discerning because in the wrong hands the answers are >> I know that's why I keep coming here.

[01:20:18]>> So, you know, but but the the real now where I really think we're all supposed to come out and yet this is just going to sound like Pablo, but love one another.

[01:20:27]>> Well, that was another question I had, but I won't I won't I won't go there right now.

[01:20:32]>> All really important stuff. So, I mean, I love I love your questions and and and I and I love the thought of having some remedial groups.

[01:20:45]>> Let me just continue to ponder this and maybe together second Saturday can come up with some more things. Okay.

[01:20:52]>> Keep breathless. Keep keep being uncomfortable. I love it.

[01:20:57]>> You're fully alive.

[01:21:00]>> Yeah.

[01:21:00]>> No doubt.

[01:21:03]>> Okay. Thanks, Becky. How about Stephen Braun? Stephen, can you unmute? It's good to see you.

[01:21:10]>> Hi there. Um, this whole year has been great. I love the summary you gave us. It helped me recollect some of the highlights. Um, I I think what I want to say is that words, language, uh, we can't do with it, we can't do without it. Um all the stuff about death experience and the living and embodied um life where where the depths not the imagination of the heavens are where you most likely encounter divinity. I I'm totally believe that. I really think all religion comes from experience. I had yet another one. I'm up to somewhere between five and 10 in my whole life on Easter Sunday.

[01:22:04]>> Um, so every time I think, you know, I've kind of I can't do this supernatural theism like they do at church a lot where I go, but then something happens and I'm back. Uh, I'm still there. I'm trying to figure out and you can't tell them exactly what happened uh because the words don't work.

[01:22:28]Theopoetics aside, you can't describe the experience, but like you said in one of your memorable quotes, you never forget.

[01:22:37]>> Yeah. Truth is unintent, right? So uh so I've been looking in over the year uh broadening. I love this venue. I've also joined Westar. I read a book this weekend um Jeffrey Robbins on um the willing damned. It's got eight chapters. Each is an essay and it takes you really into what are we supposed to be doing and uh things are what's happening around us and what's our role, what's our action.

[01:23:16]But he doesn't tell you what to do. He uses movies, books, philosophy, all these spinosa, all these people from history and and lays it out in eight chapters.

[01:23:31]It's kind of deep like trying to read the Jack Caputo book. I've read it many times and gave it to my senior pastor.

[01:23:39]Um but you have to go it it is theopoetic in a sense that he's using these other literary forms other symbol systems to communicate and guide a path for what's wrong with Christianity and what's our role today. So I like that >> I went to an art museum. We I'm blessed you're living >> pass this finger up just you may not be able to see that but >> I'm just making a little note of that.

[01:24:09]Okay.

[01:24:10]>> I live about 20 miles from from the arts district of Fort Worth and we have worldclass museums and I saw one that resonated for me. I saw it twice. It was called um German art and politics 1910 to 1945.

[01:24:31]And so it was, you know, how after before and after World War I and we moved into the Third Reich period, how did that affect art and the people that were in Germany or fled? And they even had a art that they decided was degenerative, labeled degenerative art, which is some of the best art in the western art museums now. But >> let me just interrupt you here because this is really this is a lot of important stuff but let me just make a note that the arts and I think this is where Jeffrey Robbins is going and and Brandon will go the same place and so will Jack but the arts is a kind of quote unquote language >> that tries to express what's going what's going on >> right >> really going on and it's not maybe word language but it's an image it's in gesture it's in sound it's in tensions of body it's you So the arts and religion and I think that Mark Oakley will say the same thing that the arts and religion are very very much of the same they are responding to something the same which is the vagaries and wonders of human experience. So when I'm in Joseph Luzy's um Italian professor of literature from Bard College uh his book of the month seminar I always ask questions that sound like I'm talking to you Maryanne because I'm always bringing in how does this relate to spirituality or how does this you know I I've got the frame of what we're talking about here and I bring it to other venues that I participate in. We just did the director about the silent movie star Paps that went back to Germany and got caught up in having to do movies for the Nazis and that tied right into the Robins book I just mentioned.

[01:26:31]>> Maybe you could make a note of of the title of Robin's book and put it in the chat because some of us had mentioned >> it's in there already. I already did that. I even mentioned my Zoom group. I did self-promotional commercial.

[01:26:43]>> Perfect. Perfect. I'm all for Westar.

[01:26:46]So, we're getting close to closing time.

[01:26:48]We will go into uh coffee time, but let's see if we can hear from a couple more people before we go in and, you know, join us at coffee time, too.

[01:26:55]Stephen, I always appreciate you.

[01:26:58]>> Thanks, Stephen. Uh, Leanne Lindsay.

[01:27:01]Leanne, can you unmute and >> turn on your video?

[01:27:06]>> Oh, turn on the video. Um, yeah. I usually keep it off because there's just so much stuff going on, but let's see.

[01:27:11]Did that work? Can you see me?

[01:27:13]>> Y.

[01:27:14]Um, so there's just so much to cover and so much to say. You you you just give so much to think about in all of this. Um, and and things. I don't in some ways I don't even know where to begin. Um, a friend and I have been have just found you guys back in January and started listening to you and and working with some of the stuff. Um, I've been working with a couple of other groups. um Shirley Pollson's Bible and Beyond um and then um West Star of course and and things.

[01:27:45]So there's been a lot of um deconstruction going on in my thought and things um and and stuff.

[01:27:55]>> Deconstruction has to do with the depths.

[01:27:58]>> Yes.

[01:27:59]>> Smashing the state, right? It's it's it's going into the depths. So, cuz deconstruction gets bad name in places, but you know that deconstruction is actually a positive thing. So, >> Oh, yeah. I'm I I am so thrilled with what's been going on over the and and this is something that's actually been going on for a few years, but it seems to have come to a head in kind of like the last year. Um but part of it I I found is it there's it's especially with you all um such a um different use of of uh language and words um talking about the imagination um um which in some ways it's very similar. I mean there's some concepts that are very similar but you're using a different language which helps to keep it from being dogmatic and things. So I really appreciate that. Um it does give me a lot to think about there. Um but recently I was talking with some people and you were talking a lot about hope is the fact that people sometimes want the dogmatic because it gives them a sense of certainty and that gives them a sense of something to hope in that then provides a sense of comfort when there's a lot of things going on.

[01:29:14]So I guess um and then you also mentioned at the very beginning one of the things that I liked was when you were saying that is it too late for Christianity and so I guess kind of my question and and and thinking about all of this is I'm trying to kind of trying to get get beyond it's like I'm still believe in Christianity. I very much appreciate the teachings in a lot of ways and things, but I don't want to be limited by Christianity and I don't want the box of what or the baggage that comes along with saying I'm a Christian at this point. Um, so my question I guess in a way is would it be a really bad thing a Christianity it is too late for Christianity.

[01:29:59]>> Yeah.

[01:30:02]Um, you know, it's uh it's a it's a treasure in earth and vessels.

[01:30:10]>> If Christianity um I remember Jack Spang years ago used to say Christianity must change or die. Well, if if Christianity is no longer if if it becomes something other than I don't even know how to language this.

[01:30:28]Uh no, that would not be the worst thing to have happen.

[01:30:30]>> Yeah.

[01:30:32]You know, >> I think and part of it is it's it's hard to put the into words >> and and Christianity is not, as I said earlier, not the absolute truth. You know, we're all trying to make sense of this. We all tell stories about you know what, you know, we come into a world that doesn't tell us its meaning and and we seek it and then um so you know I mean Christian and you know it's sort of like a song that you that you've loved to sing and it it may be out of step with the times now but I mean I'm I'm always probably going to be singing some of this song but um does the world need it? Um, I think there are a lot of things in Christianity that the world needs and stuff that we're talking about. But Christianity also is claims to be all this other stuff that I think has absolutely nothing to do with.

[01:31:24]That's that's where the master narrative thing becomes really important. And if the master narrative of let's say white Christian supremacy becomes the narrative of Christianity, I'm out of here.

[01:31:37]>> Yeah.

[01:31:38]>> Okay. So, um I just think that again we need to look at the depths of what are we talking about? What matters? What do we love? What do we um what do we love when we say we love our God? And then what you know but but it's unpacking all of this. And for some people the unpacking is a is a trip to nowhere. But for me it it it helps us to not get um uh oified you know. So um you know if these end up being dry bones oh well >> and just one one quick statement and that is is that I would support Becky's request for remedials.

[01:32:24]Okay.

[01:32:27]>> Thank you very much. you. This really does mean a lot to us.

[01:32:31]>> Yeah. Well, the questions here are so important for me. I'm not great ones, but I sure love the questions.

[01:32:37]>> Well, Maryanne, I think we're at time.

[01:32:40]I'm hoping that the people who still have their hands up can join us at coffee hour.

[01:32:44]>> Can they? John, can you join us? Yep.

[01:32:47]And >> and Lynn and Jel. Yeah.

[01:32:50]>> Great. Okay. Um, so we will, um, I'm glad that there's that we can continue the conversation.

[01:33:00]Um, let me, um, just remind us that June 13th is our next and our final second Saturday for this program year. And then we'll start again in September. And we will have with us Jack and Brandon. And they are going to return. This is like this is new wine and old wine skins.

[01:33:19]Don't tell them I said that. But new wine and uh you know resurrection better than ever and um because it did not get taped on in April. Um I'm so glad they can come back and this one will be taped and so it'll be available for us to return to and ponder and ponder and ponder. So um uh please join us on the 13th of June for Jack and Brandon talking about resurrection since it is such a primary notion and and um experience of Christianity. Um uh also the the closing slides uh there are there will be three or four photographs that Brandon took of birds.

[01:33:59]Brandon's a beautiful photographer. So this will just give our eyes something to feast on um as part of our closing slides. The closing music um I have chosen for today uh Marvin Gay's what's going on because that's a question that I am um ask I've asked a lot today.

[01:34:18]What's going on? What's going on in the name of God? What's going on? And Marvin Gay, as you might know, um this was a song from 1971. It was really an antivietnam war song. Um it was inspired by his brother uh and the horror that he experienced returning from Vietnam. And uh the the song starts um as a it's a homecoming party. That's where the song starts. But it's really a plea for peace. And um you So let me just bring some of the words to your attention.

[01:34:49]It's like he starts by saying, "Hey, what what's happening? You know what's happening? Uh this is a groovy party. Uh h how you doing, man?" Okay. And then it's he says too too many too many mothers are crying, too many brothers are dying. We've got to find a way to bring some loving here today.

[01:35:09]And maybe that is the question for second Saturday.

[01:35:13]And then he says, you know, you don't need to escalate. You see, war is not the answer for only love can h can conquer eight. You know, we we've got to find a way to bring some loving here today.

[01:35:29]Pickicket lines and picket signs. Don't punish me with brutality.

[01:35:34]What's going on?

[01:35:36]What's going on?

[01:35:39]You know, we've got to find a way to bring some understanding here today.

[01:35:45]It's Marvin Gay.

[01:35:48]Um let me close with two um comments.

[01:35:54]Remember that radical theologies concern is not the fear of God's judgment but the fear that we will stop loving.

[01:36:05]And let me um share with you a phrase that Jack Caputo has shared with us. This was a phrase when he was part of the Dal brothers. He was part of a religious community for a number of years.

[01:36:17]um something to be said every hour, every day.

[01:36:21]Let us remember, let us remember we are in the holy presence of God.

[01:36:35]I'll see some of you in just a few minutes and I look forward to seeing um the rest of you on June 13th and bring a friend. This will be an important session for us. Um, thank you so much for being part of Second Saturday Conversation and for making it what it is, which is a um a place of living water and and hope and love.

[01:36:58]See you June 13th.