Allah's Body Parts and Dueling Islamic Theologies

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]Heat up here.

[00:00:52]Welcome back to Ministry to Muslims. I'm your host Karen. Tonight we have Terrence from Minnesota giving us part two of his talk on anthropomorphisms.

[00:01:04]That's a tough word. Try saying that three times fast. Titled Allah's body parts and dueling Islamic theologies.

[00:01:12]Terrence is engaging with some of the many Somali Muslims they have there in Minneapolis. And I'm from Western Canada. I am doing my best to educate and wake up the church on Islam and the need to reach out to Muslims. I'm author of a book uh called Islam explored uh simply put and it's for those new to the topic and it's available on Amazon. Now Terrence if we can have you up here that great welcome welcome this is a very interesting >> Hi there. Hey brother, it's a very interesting topic. I really enjoyed your part one. I thought thought that was excellent and um this topic has no doubt initiated lots of scholarly discussions.

[00:02:03]I'll leave it at discussions over the centuries. Can you just give us a quick comment on what we have to look forward to tonight?

[00:02:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean um what a lot of Christians don't know is there's a lot of debate. Um even uh coming up to today a lot of friendly maybe sometimes fierce um discussions and debates between different Muslim um theological groups and about um who you know some might assert that I'm I'm the true Sunni um Sunni um um the the correct Sunni theology um and the the other uh theologies are aarent and um and it comes down to a difficulty in reconciling the meaning um of of of words which we would expect have straightforward meanings in the sources. But if if you try and understand them with an Islamic mindset of of a God who's who's completely transcendent and completely above everything and above everything that we can ever imagine it what is written in the Quran and the hadith that just they just doesn't seem to match up with >> what the expectations of the Muslim scholars are. H well, I sure look forward to seeing your your um presentation here shortly. Um I think yeah, you'll you'll go over some of that and give us a a flesh it out a little bit better and give us give us a a better idea. Now, before we begin, I'd just like to offer a prayer and um it's just a very quick prayer. Dear heavenly father, dear Lord Jesus Christ, and dear blessed holy spirit. Lord, please help us to deliver tonight's message clearly and let it make an impression on those who hear it, Lord, so that we may share the gospel and bring those Muslims to Christ, especially those, dear Lord, who are tonight celebrating Eid alada. And Lord, we ask that they may find the real Ada who incarnated and died for them. In Jesus's name we pray. Amen.

[00:04:22]>> Amen. Now, yes, that's the whole reason why we're doing these talks. Um, now the round table, the MTOM roundt is a new format featuring a teaching followed by a roundt discussion. Its purpose is to reinforce the message of the teaching and to help viewers apply it in everyday conversations with Muslims. And please feel free to put your questions in the chat and we will we look forward to to hope hopefully answering them um during the discussion part. Uh we do want you to be part of that. Uh so please feel free to populate the uh chat. Um, also please check out the resources at the M2M. Now that's M and the number two M network website that is now this is different www.mministry tomuslims.com and the M2M network YouTube channel on obviously what you're watching this on.

[00:05:22]uh couple of up upcoming events. On Saturday, June 6 this year at 2:00 p.m.

[00:05:29]Eastern Standard Time, we have a lively debate between Dr. Tony Costa and Dr. Shabir Ali on the topic the crucifixion and resurrection, the biblical or the Muslim view, a debate between.

[00:05:44]And please be sure to join us for our regular live streams on Sundays at 400 p.m. Pacific Daylight Time. We're only on daylight time here in the Pacific now. And of course, every Thursday night at 5:00 p.m. Pacific uh daylight time.

[00:06:00]Now, the Sunday live stream is set up.

[00:06:03]Um, so the usual setup is the first Sunday it's um Eddie Delor, the second Sunday it's Anthony Rogers, the third Sunday it's Tony Costa, and the fourth Sunday it's Samuel Green. And um those of course are then posted on our um on our YouTube channel and with the resources posted at the website. Um, just before we begin, we leave you now for an outro on our Sunday night live stream.

[00:06:34]>> Oh, we don't Yeah, actually the outro is going to be at the end.

[00:06:38]>> Oh, okay. All right.

[00:06:40]>> Yeah. No, >> sorry about that.

[00:06:42]>> Our viewers can definitely Yeah, look forward to that on the way out.

[00:06:46]>> Okay, that sounds great. Well, then shall we get started?

[00:06:52]AB: >> Absolutely.

[00:06:54]Great.

[00:06:54]>> Thank you. Thanks a lot.

[00:06:56]>> Thank you.

[00:06:58]Okay. Um so yes um as sister Karen mentioned this is part two of um anthropomorphisms having body parts and and this time we're going to talk more about the dueling Islamic theologies that um just just a reminder of the God that we know and love in the Bible. Our God is transcendent. He is is far bigger and more wonderful than we could ever imagine. But he made himself known to us. He's he's been interacting and um revealing himself of who he is and um connecting with us in personal relational ways ever since the start of time, ever since or ever since creation.

[00:07:53]Um, we see here in Jeremiah 23:23- 24, it's written, "Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away?

[00:08:07]Can a man hide himself in secret places that I cannot see him?" Declares the Lord. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, declares the Lord."

[00:08:17]Um yeah, we our God is is not just um magnificent but he also desires to make himself close to us.

[00:08:30]Um and let's remind us in what the um we talked about this last time that Allah in the Quran Quran chapter 42:11 it says that there is nothing like Allah and uh in Quran chapter 1124 the famous uh what is it that surah al which Muslims will will know well is that it says there is nothing comparable or or nothing equal nothing at the same level as him. And Muslims have this really strong um strong concept of of transcendence that Allah is is so high above us that we could never really know anything about him. And um so today in this talk we're going to be um reviewing um the the Quran and Hadith on Allah have Allah's body parts anthropomorphic mentions of of Allah and uh the the um how the different schools of Islamic theology Sunni Islamic theology um uh try and explain these anthropomorphisms. of Allah because it creates really some difficulty when you try and reconcile it with the concept of of Allah's absolute transcendence and um and then we'll also try and we'll also go and uh discuss a couple of practical things you can do to talk about Muslim friends and and neighbors of of different Islamic theologies or um the word in in in in the uh Islamic circles is Aka the Akida schools of Aka um how how you talk to Muslims of different schools of Aka so so the core question here and we've got at to the right the magnificent shin of Allah which we talked about that apparently on the judgment day people are going to bow before and uh so the Quran uses this human like anthropomorphic language about God using terms such as hand to shin and also ascending above the throne, i.e. having finite size and and being able to move from one point or another in in creation. Now, are these are these words meant to be interpreted literally or metaphorically?

[00:11:08]because it it sure seems as we'll see later that that they just read to be interpreted literally in many cases and the different Islamic schools have developed in uh to some extent in in response to how to develop how to interpret uh such such words.

[00:11:28]So we just reviewing from last time we saw we had we had hadiths on Adam being created in the image or the the physical shape of Allah 90 90 90 foot tall Allah having a shape having hands having eyes having shin having a face I've got the word eyes twice um and there being an Islamic antichrist called the djal which in some senses looks quite like Allah and and there's a hadith which is described to uh to distinguish how the darl looks different so you don't mistake one for the other and then finally we we talk about uh a Quran verse where Allah rises above his throne so he has which suggests he has physical dimensions um and and physical size perhaps finite physical size and how can that be for an infinite God.

[00:12:34]So looking at the the three main schools of Aka in Sunni Islam, you've got the Atheres which constitute somewhere between five and 10% of Muslims. the the Materis the which is um 30 to 40% and then the Asheries which which con constitute about 50% um the majorities of of Muslims. So we've got um the the Materis being predominant more in Central Asia and South Asia. The Asheries in in um many parts of the Sunni Muslim world including uh the Arab world, South Asia, South East Asia, much of Africa and parts of Turkey. And then you've got the Atheres. They're on the Arabian Peninsula and and various other parts of say Africa such as the Horn of Africa and Southeast Asia. Um so you got these three groups, but they're largely dominated overwhelmingly dominated by the the Asheries and the Materes. Well, let's let's look a bit into who these groups are, what what they believe, and uh and then then we'll talk a little bit about how they conflict with each other.

[00:13:53]Uh so let's start with the AI the the um the uh traditionalists they they try and stick with the salaf the the uh original companions of Muhammad of what what uh what they would believe like salaf just means companion I believe in in Arabic they what they do is is they will they'll stick strongly to the texts to the literal meaning of the texts affirming the words as stated. So, for example, when the Quran claims that Allah has a hand, they'll just accept Allah has a hand. I just accept what the words say. Um and and they will um reject any attempts to try and explain that away in in a way which which would violate Allah's transcendence. Allah being anything like us because in in their concept of Allah's transcendence transcendence Allah being like us um violates that that really strong concept of transcendence. So they'll reject rationalist explanations and they will instead strongly assert this Islamic term be ask not how. Don't ask uh the modality of exactly how Allah has a hand. Don't try and interpret the meaning. And then we've to the right here we've got Ahmed Imman Hanbul who was one of the pioneers of the of the uh Atherie um school of Islamic theology or at least one of the originators at least the originator there have been other scholars down the line um including Iben Tamir who's 13th century who you know he um he's a very famous aie and uh he will assert the uh is the um Arabic term bilarif without distortion of the scriptures and without likening Allah to his creation.

[00:16:07]So he would affirm that the attributes of Allah are exactly as they are presented in the Quran hadith without distortion without denying these these attributes or these body parts and without likening them to creation. They use the Arabic word tantheil for that.

[00:16:30]Now we move on to the Asheries. There are a mix of rationalist and tradition traditionalists. Now there there were a bunch of pure rationalists called the muteselites or the mutezles uh who I mentioned last time um and they they really took they really applied reason very strongly in explaining um these these challenges to um to the Islamic u view of God.

[00:16:58]But um they there was there was a really some very uh not just strong debate.

[00:17:06]There were there were a lot of people who died and um in in a in a in first the mutes asserting their position of Islamic theology and then the push back from from the uh counter.

[00:17:24]So these are not small matters in the school in in um the Islamic world. Um so the Asher they they want to balance um revelation with reason and they in many cases they will what will always without likening Allah to his creation uh which is what they call that tashb and uh instead of saying that Allah has a hand they would want to call Allah's body parts as attributes. So for example, well before I move into the examples, he they would say that these these attributes eternally subsist in Allah's essence. There are not they're not separable entities from Allah. And Allah is not composed of parts. Because if Allah was composed of parts, you could easily assert that that Allah is in some way dependent upon his parts. And then you can't really have a god who is dependent on his parts that all of a sudden Allah is not almighty.

[00:18:34]And it is common commonly said a term that seems to have been developed from the philosophy of the time that that these attributes are neither he nor anything other than he. Um which which is an interesting saying which means um which is it's sort of contradictory if you think about it. If you can say uh what I'm giving you is neither um apple pie nor is it anything other than apple pie. So what what if I'm offering you uh a plate with some apple pie? What is it that I've just given you? Well, if it's not apple pie and it's not anything other than apple pie, perhaps it's an empty perhaps it's an empty plate. Um but nevertheless there to the asheries there seems to be real distinctions uh within the godhead within God's essence that that um which is good news for us in explaining the trinity because we believe in father son and holy spirit and three persons um instead of instead of multiple attributes and there there is some real distinction within the godhead uh within Christian theology that we can we can draw upon this uh uh the fact that we both believe in a God who has real distinctions um within his essence to to better explain the trinity.

[00:20:04]So now there's um a distinction between early atheris sorry Asheries who were who were less likely to metaphorically explain the attributes of God. They would be more likely to um relegate matters to God to explain himself i.e. to his revelation. They they might say we affirm the wording without but entrust the true meaning to Allah. I.e. They affirm that Allah has a hand but don't specify what it actually means.

[00:20:36]But there was a later shift in thought which um was probably influenced by by philosophy, Greek philosophy for example that they moved more towards figurative or interpretation or tawil where a ma hand might mean power or favor and descending may refer to to Allah having some expressing mercy or command but that ultimately the ultimate reality is beyond beyond human comprehension and be ask not how regarding Allah's true nature for example what what Allah's justice and mercy truly is it might not be like our mercy and then of course we've got the materi school who are also rationalist traditionalists and they want to defend Allah's transcendence using reason um which the to be honest the the ais don't do very well at because they refuse to explain anything.

[00:21:36]They reject anything implying Allah having body parts. They would affirm body parts as attributes or the Arabic word isifat. You might hear this when you're talk listening to Muslims discuss these attributes. And uh they would say that attributes are neither identical to the essence nor anything other than the essence which is very similar to what I just said. the um the the Asher say and the often often the how in terms of bil is the how and maybe even the intended meaning is unknown at least with the the asheris sorry the aaries the uh when you when you're talking about Allah having a hand um aes are are comfortable in saying Allah has a hand. But um when you talk to a materi, they might not be willing to say when they interpret Allah's hand as power, they might might be not inclined to to pin down a real a very precise meaning to what they mean by power. So Moritis stand with the Asheries on on many of these on many of these pertinent points. For example, they they affirm real eternal divine attributes like the Asheries. They use what we call kalam.

[00:23:03]Kalam just is the Arabic word for speech. Kalam theology. But here that means they're using logical reason and philosophical arguments to defend Alice, for example, his transcendence.

[00:23:16]Um they've got they've got a a similarly strong sense of divine transcendence as the Asheries. Uh but they might be more likely to use consignment or or just saying um uh appealing to Allah um on explaining exactly what what these attributes mean and they're more likely to use metaphorical interpretations of scripture than the ash asheries and no though I'm not going to mention in in the talk the Asheries and the Materis have a significantly different uh interpretation of what we mean by Allah's speech.

[00:23:57]The um the AI interpretation of Allah's speech is a lot more straightforward than the Asherie interpretation in that that as part of Allah's speech um consists voice vocal sounds and letters that that that consists um that are basically part of Allah. While the Asheris and Matarites would say that Alice's speech his internal speech is different from the revealed Quran. So in in the uh in in some sense to the Asheris and Materis the revealed Quran is some sort of composite almost a creation. um you have to take some internal speech and add letters to produce the Quran which which um some uh some aeries uh have found quite quite infuriating a concept because um to they might actually assert that the Asheries and the Materis are claiming a a Quran that is not eternal that has been created which which is uh which is heresy in Islam.

[00:25:12]The Quran is meant to be in Islam eternal. Just like our divine word of God, Jesus is eternal, never never created um always existed. The Quran is in Islam meant to be eternal. The only school that that believed the Quran was created officially um are the Meszelites. And a lot of people died for holding that opinion, pushing back on it.

[00:25:41]Okay. So, let's look at an example of a hadith. Here we have one uh from Jammedi 3233. Uh it's it's uh this the chain of transmission is Hassan. That means that still means it's good. It means it's still a quite a reliable hadith. But anyway, here it here it talks about um Allah coming in in a vision to to um the messenger to Muhammad in the best of appearances. He placed his hand between my shoulders until I sensed its coolness. So you might ask, what does it mean? What do you mean by Allah's hand having a sense of coolness? Well, the the aeries and the ashes and materes have different interpretations of what that might mean. And uh so according if I paraphrase uh Ahmed Iban Hanbal, one of the pioneers of the AI school of theology, Allah has a hand but don't imagine how one how he has one or compare it with creation.

[00:26:50]In fact, if I just pull up one of my notes, it is a set of uh from Imam Hanbul, whatever comes to your mind uh regarding imagining imagining Allah, Allah is the opposite. So um in a sense those words that are used to describe Allah like for example the coolness of Allah's hands have no real meaning or no meaning that that you can really attach to the words which becomes very troublesome for those u for anyone who who wants to know anything about Allah at all if the words used to describe him have no meaning.

[00:27:32]Um, contrast that to the Asher and Mat Matarites who who might say that the coolness of Allah's hand is a symbol for say mercy or tranquility.

[00:27:45]It's very different very different interpretations of what the coolness of Allah's hand could um refer to.

[00:27:54]So unsurprisingly the u the aeries have been criticizing the asherie beliefs over the ages like Iben Tamia he's um he's a very famous aerie and uh he believed that many asheries deny the literal meanings of scripture import philosophical assumptions i.e There's a very s serious sin um called innovation or in the Arabic bidder which he would be accusing Asher of of uh of of committing and uh elevating speculative theology this calam theology which included philosophy um elevating it above scripture um serious allegations.

[00:28:42]So let's for example take the uh Quran verse um 757 on Allah rising over the over the throne where it says u indeed your lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then he rose overstawah the throne and then in the brackets really in a matter really in a manner that suits his majesty. So that's that's added by the hilalikhan translation.

[00:29:10]It's not in the original Arabic but the word is in the original Arabic and they're trying to interpret what it means as they do so as and the interpret is rising over the throne. Um so on this Ibent Tamir would criticize the Asheries uh he would especially criticize them because they would assert that that the wordista means dominion interpreting and interpreting the hand as merely power as we described before. He argued that if estawa only means dominion, then then Allah would would only begin ruling after he he rose up to his throne. So before Allah had rose rose to his throne, he was not in dominion over his creation. Only after he had settled on his on his throne. So then Allah would not be the um eternal uh owner and lord of everything. And um yeah, good point, Iban Tamir. Um I can I see what you mean.

[00:30:12]Um his criticism was nuanced because he recognized that not all Asheries um so strongly embraced this uh these philosophical interpretations of what's going on here.

[00:30:26]So he was more positive about um the about the originator al Asher himself than later theologians such as Alrazi.

[00:30:36]And then he thought the later asherism became increasingly entangled with um Greek concepts such as neoplatanism, Aristot Aristotle um Aristotleian metaphysics and speculative theology.

[00:30:56]Uh so he yeah he was more critical with one uh one branch of the Asheries than another. That's true. But you know the stakes are high in the Muslim world for um uh having wrong theology. I mean let's look at Quran chapter 9 surah al Torba verse 73. It actually says here, "Oh prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them and their refuge is hell and wretched is their destination." So it it tells you here not to only fight the disbelievers but also the hypocrites. Who are the hypocrites? They could be um Muslims who who uh say they affirm the Quran, but they would start to put um philosophy or metaphorical interpretation over of what it actually says. And if if you if you listen to some of these these AI um um apologists online like like uh Shake Assim Al-Heim for example over in Saudi Arabia I believe he would he would say that the Asheris and the Mataritis are not truly Sunni Muslims. So he's putting them in the very difficult position. um he's almost tech fearing them or declaring them not Muslim there and and people have been tech feared or or declared unbelievers um for not espousing a particular Islamic school in the past before and and even without taking such a radical stand last year we had uh a potential debate between David Wood and I believe Apostate Prophet they were going to be debating against Jake Branatella, the um Muslim metaphysician, and Daniel Hakikachu, uh who who uh sadly espouses child child um marriage. Um but he he seems to be very honest in in admitting that.

[00:33:04]And and what we found was that Jake and Daniel found that they couldn't they couldn't agree on on their Akita. And because of that they were not willing to debate um um David and AP.

[00:33:20]Instead they set up three debates amongst themselves over the last nine months. A total of 12 hours of debate discussing this topic. Ashera Materi's deviant very interesting uh watching by the way.

[00:33:36]Um they bring up a lot of interesting topics. They even bring up the satanic verses and have some discussion of those in in the um Islamic sources and um so but it's it's very serious stuff that we're looking at at here. So um what we okay let's let's um let's talk about how we talk to an asherie about the trinity. So as I I mentioned it a little bit before in Asher theology Alice attributes are real and eternal.

[00:34:15]The attributes are distinct from one another um and not not separate from Allah but at the same time not parts.

[00:34:24]They don't want to fall into partialism.

[00:34:26]They would they would regard that as problematic. So they would affirm a plural plurality of eternal distinctions yet preserve the divine unity in some sense. Whilst in uh in the trinity we have the father, son and holy spirit who similarly are eternal distinct from one another not not separate entities or not separate gods and um not parts they're persons sharing the same divine essence.

[00:34:56]So we believe in in the trinity that these um these three persons are one divine being and but but three but but three in personhood. So what we see here is there are real real distinctions within the one God that in both Asher theology and trinitarian theology that we can leverage to to better explain the trinity to our Muslim friends.

[00:35:25]So, but if we're talking to an author, we need to take a little bit of a a different tact. If we um if we use biblical revelation, it's better to do so because um they're not really too crash hot on metaphysics.

[00:35:40]This they're this saying, for example, that um that Allah's attributes are not Allah, but not anything other than Allah. they they might regard that as as not something they want to say rather it's an innovation or or bidder from uh Greek the Greek philosophy. So um if we introduce a philosophical model of the trinity, we might have some difficulty explaining the trinity to an ather and and so we might simply want to say that the father is god, the son is god, and the spirit is god, but there still one god.

[00:36:22]And and if you're just presenting the revelation rather than trying to explain it um philosophically, you might you might find run into less problems um because to the ather mind they're they're comfortable in Allah in in some mysteries existing like Allah having hands but we cannot really explain what Allah's hand is.

[00:36:46]So in in in simply um just appealing to revelation and in calling it a mis mystery, we might u better appeal to the aie mind and and their instinct of just simply affirming revelation and uh on the topic of bilfe you might say you already accept realities about god beyond full human comprehension such as allcending Alice speaking, he he wills things. He loves he's above the throne. Yet you you won't address exactly how that is the case. So you could say that likewise the trinity uh is accepted because of revelation even if the full modality of how three persons can um embody the same divine essence transcends human comprehension.

[00:37:39]uh you might get a lot more mileage out of that than um trying to explain them the um father, son, and holy spirit away.

[00:37:49]So, we've been going for a while, but um I want to show you some more hadiths on Allah and his body parts, and then we'll be able to draw in some uh some ways of bringing in the incarnation and and explaining how how God can become man.

[00:38:10]So you know we're going to going to show a few hadiths on Allah having face and eyes, hands and fingers, legs and a foot and a waist or in fact um might actually be truer to interpret it as loins. Allah having a loin. Okay. So Allah having a face. Um here we have here Sahib Bukari.

[00:38:33]Um uh 66. If I wait a second, let me look at my notes because oh yes, 66 and where it says, "Shall I tell you about these three persons? One of them bettook himself to Allah. So Allah took him into his grace and mercy and accommodated him. The second felt shy from Allah. So Allah sheltered him in his mercy, did not punish him. the third turned his face from Allah and went away. So Allah turned his face from him likewise. So here you you see a man who's physically turning his face from Allah and Allah is responding by turning in a in a reciprocal fashion and turning his face from him. Um so maybe you can interpret this metaph uh metaphorically but it seems physical things are happening here. A man is physically turning away from Allah. Uh so we talked last time about Allah having eyes and uh to the right we see Allah looking on the work um being accomplished with Noah building the ark. We can see here in the second of the two verses Quran 11:37 build the ark under our watchful eyes and with our inspiration.

[00:39:58]Let's let's move to Allah having hands which we also talked about last time.

[00:40:02]There are some another um a number of other hadiths which talk about Allah having hands. So for example this one from Sahi albakari 7412.

[00:40:15]So narrated Iban Umar it says Allah will grasp the whole earth by his hand and all the heavens in his right. So Allah has a hand that he will grasp the earth with. Is that metaphorical? Not or not?

[00:40:29]Not sure. Um we have Allah having fingers. Uh Abdullah ib Amar Alas reported that he heard the heard Allah's messenger saying verily the hearts of the sons of Adam are between the two fingers out of the fingers of the compassionate Lord is one heart right so here we got um the hearts of people being between the two fingers of Allah I guess that's probably more metaphorical but um look at this hadith by the way this is under the same collection or chapter of Sahib Bkari. This is Sahib Bkari 7414 where um where which is titled to one whom I whom I have created with both my hands narrated Abdullah uh due came to the prophet and said oh Muhammad Allah will hold the heavens on a finger and the mountains on a finger and the trees on a finger and all the creation on a finger. So you've got um the universe, the mountains, the tree, and all and all creation on separate fingers of Allah. So does Allah have four fingers or is this metaphorical?

[00:41:41]It's re it's really not clear. And then um and it even says at uh at the end of this hadith, Allah's apostle smiled and expressed his wonder and belief in what was said because it was a Jew who came up to Muhammad and and then he he agrees with him. He is he he wonders and he agrees with him.

[00:42:00]So uh in a story that might be familiar with you narrated Anus the prophet said my lord says if my slave comes nearer to me for a span I go nearer to him for a cubit and if he comes nearer to me for a cubit I go nearer to him for for the span of the of the outreached arms.

[00:42:21]And if he comes to me walking I go to him running.

[00:42:27]Saha bkari. What does that sound like to us? Of course, some of you might notice it sounds like the story of the prodal son in here in Luke 15:20.

[00:42:40]But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him. He ran to his son.

[00:42:48]The father runs to his son, threw his arms around him, and kissed him. So, so here we have um some imagery. We've got the uh some fatherson uh imagery rather than master slave. Um back in the Islamic hadith, we've got this uh this these family relations rather than Allah just sort of approaching close if we approach him, which is more in the lines of Islamic transcendence and this sort of covenantal picture of you know this is this is this is this father's son. of course he's going to be thrilled um because they you know they're they're father and son via a covenant and um whilst Allah his his behavior is reciprocal if you have to approach him and then he'll approach you um in reciprocating our behavior towards him um so it's kind of interesting that that that um these stories are so similar you might imagine that that Muhammad was inspired by the story of the prodical son. It's possible. Um here we have Allah stepping a foot in hell as there in Jamia 3272.

[00:44:08]It says here that are there any more until the might lord puts his foot over it. So Allah is letting people get in go into hell until he's he puts his foot over it to block it. Um so it seems that Allah has a foot that steps in a physical realm in the hellfire. It's hard to imagine um his foot being metaphorical there but I'm sure the the uh asheris and materites have uh attempted to explain it metaphorically.

[00:44:41]Uh here we are. Here we are. As I stated earlier, Allah having a waste. Um the the prophet said Allah created his creation and when he had finished the womb, I think it's the womb of the earth got up and caught hold of Allah. And it says that in the English, but if you look at the the um the Arabic, I mean, if you just take the words and gra drag it into Google Translate, for example, and is verified by Arab speakers, Arabic speakers, it it actually talks about um the womb of the earth grabbing his waist. Um or and you could also translate it his loins that part of the body in Sahib Bkari 4830. Um so Allah Allah seems to have a waste. Is it metaphorical or physical?

[00:45:31]Well I mean physical things are happening there but this one could be slightly more metaphorical.

[00:45:36]um question can Allah take his attributes and um and Muslims would want to interpret Allah's body parts as attributes can can Allah take his attributes and restrict him restrict them i.e restrict his nature.

[00:45:56]So, can Allah restrict his glory? Uh, and this is a great question because this comes to some of the heart of um God coming down into his creation and uh us seeing God's glory, but it says in in the Bible that if you if you fully looked um God in the face, you would just burn up and we cannot God is far too glorious to be um for us to be able to survive. And so you get this similar concept in is in the Islamic sources. Um can Allah restrict his glory? Well, in this uh hadith in Sunan Iban Maja Sah not the only one is narrated by by Abu Musa where it says it speaks about Allah having veils of light and if he were to remove these veils of veils of light the glory of his face would burn everything of his creation as far as his gaze reaches i.e. Allah needs to put in veils of light between us and him to protect us from his glory. So there's a sense in which he's restricting his glory um so that we won't be destroyed by it. And and interestingly enough in probably a in Islamic u transcendental sense that in in this hadith here you've got the the angel Gabriel claiming that he approached Allah i.e. it says here Gabriel said Muhammad I approached my lord nearer than I have ever come before.

[00:47:35]When Muhammad asked about that, he replied, "Between him and me, there were 70,000 veils of light. That's a lot of separation between Allah and and um Gabriel." So, it seems like we can never get close to Allah. And this is in Mishkat Al Masabi 7:41.

[00:47:53]Seems there's a lot of distance, a lot of or a lot of veils of light protecting us from Allah's Allah's glory. Um, and you know, instead of a distant God, we have a God who who just he wants he's wanted to dwell with us since the beginning of time. He just wants to dwell with us today in our heart through the Holy Spirit and uh in in our relationship with um father, son, and holy spirit. And it says here in Isaiah 57:15, "For thus says the one who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is holy, I dwell in the high and holy place.

[00:48:35]And catch this, also with him who is of the contrite and lowly spirit." Um, he dwells with us when we're contrite and lonely to revive the spirit of the lonely, the lowly and the and to revive the heart of the contrite. I mean, the transcendent God wants to lift you up when you're down. Um, I mean, that's just so amazing. It's so much different than Allah who was who insists on putting 70,000 veils of light between us and him, isn't it?

[00:49:10]And if we think about what Jesus did when he came to earth in the incarnation, you know, the one who is truly God came came to earth added a human nature or became a man uh however you want to put it. It says Christ Jesus in Philippians chapter 2:es 5 to10 who though he was in the form of God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped but he emptied himself taking the form of a servant being born in the likeness of man and being found in human form he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death even death on a cross. So, we've got the um almighty eternal God restricting some of his his um his properties so that he could take a human form. And many Muslims might ask, why isn't it that Jesus didn't know the hour of the um of the judgment day? Well, uh if you if you read the text, uh I believe the way it was meant to be written, well, he did, but it was just not his place to speak.

[00:50:16]the um the time of the judgment day that that role is delegated or relegated to the father. It's his it's his role to um tell us when the judgment day is. Um but at the same time, you've got a Jesus, he grew up as as a child. He he he uh he learned, he grew in knowledge. Um he he uh he could uh get injured. His body could get injured. Uh he needed sleep.

[00:50:43]He needed to eat. So he put away put aside intentionally some of his divine attributes to um be fully man one could say and so the idea of this go the of Allah restricting himself for our benefit well we see this in the incarnation Jesus didn't become fully man we wouldn't have the p the perfect sacrifice to die in our place on that cross to take our sin it wouldn't have been able to happen. So God chose to restrict his some of his divine n uh divine attributes um to save us.

[00:51:25]Um and then so talking about incarnation um just this is the last thing I'll talk about before we get to conclusion. Um Allah incarnates himself. I don't think I've never had a Muslim tell me this ever.

[00:51:42]Allah incarnates himself in dreams and visions in the hadith. And when I talk about incarnation, I mean we to for something to uh take up a body or human form um from say say Allah the spirit or a god who is not in a human form to take up a body or human form. So returning back to this hadith jam jam at 3233 we we see that Allah comes in a in a vision during the night in the best of appearances which is where he placed his hand between um Muhammad's shoulders right so he appears in the best of appearances now Asher and Aaris have these differences in which they interpret As we described before separately another hadith Allah appears as a young man the prophet Muhammad said I saw my lord with curly hair a young man with a mustache but no beard wearing green clothing. This is uh in a book called the divine names and attributes.

[00:52:53]Now some might say this hadith is not um not legit not not sahi not not a reliable in chain but then then we have oop I don't think oh Ib tamir come mentions a similar hadith which he insists does have a sahi chain of narrations where Allah appears as a young man and and this hadith here says in Iben Tamir's book I saw my lord in the form of a hairless young man with an abundance of curly cats in green meadows. So, does Allah appear to us in a human form? If so, what's what's so wrong about God coming to earth and appearing to us in a human form? How is it that that would be impossible if if your Allah is uh is doing it in your scriptures? And uh here we see on the judgment day that apparently Muslims believe Allah will appear in a human form. It says here in Sahib Bkari 7435, you will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes in uh in Sahib Bkari 4581.

[00:54:08]It similarly says you will have no difficulty in seeing Allah on the day of resurrection and you will have no difficulty in seeing either of them.

[00:54:17]Then the Lord Allah, the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about him. So um whatever picture they imagine Allah to be like, Allah is going to come like that, he's going to come in a a form that people can understand and and relate to perhaps. Um but you see that Allah appears to people in in a physical form.

[00:54:44]Um, and you know, when we go back to the Bible, we know that that's exactly what God did. He He wanted to appear to us in a physical form so that we could relate to him, know something about him, reveal who he is. Like Jesus is God making himself known to us. It says in John 1:18 um in the ESV, no one has ever seen God. The only God Jesus who is at the father's side, he has made him i.e. made God known.

[00:55:16]Um Jesus came down and dwelt among us in the very famous verses in John 1. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and and um sorry the word was with God and the word was God and the word dwelt became flesh and dwelt among us in verse 14. And we have seen his glory. Glory is of the only son, the monoggon from the father full of grace and truth. Um so we've seen God's glory in Jesus. Uh you could say you could actually um make a link back to the hadith on Allah creating curtains of light, putting something between us and him in in Islam, something which really separates us from him and makes makes him very distant from us. But in in the the case of Jesus, it's just his physical skin um separates um the glory of God is in that body and um that that body exudes God's glory to us. And it was obvious at the time who Jesus was that we're seeing God's glory by looking at Jesus.

[00:56:33]And so finally, I think we're coming to the end. Jesus is God with us. In Matthew 1:23 and some well-known verses, behold, the virgin shall con shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall shall call his name Emmanuel, which means God with us, God abiding with his creation, which indeed he's done so many times in the Old Testament um with in the in the sacrificial temple system, for example, in the Garden of Eden and other places. um and will be God's ultimate reality of those who choose to accept this gift that Jesus is offering to um take our sin and accepting his gift of grace of him dying on the cross for us.

[00:57:19]So important for our Muslims to see that that God has dealt with their sin. They don't need to earn it using ritualism that Muslims often do.

[00:57:30]And and when we have God in our lives, he can he continues to comfort us with his presence through the Holy Spirit.

[00:57:38]Psalm 34:18, the Lord is near the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.

[00:57:45]He so longs to abide with us, friends.

[00:57:48]He He longs for us to be um connected with him. He wants to see our sins forgiven.

[00:57:58]He wants to repair the relationship with us. We need to accept Christ's gift.

[00:58:05]Muslims, you really need to think think about what God did um back 2,000 years ago because he really died on that cross. And here here Jesus says, "Here I am. I stand at the door and knock." He longs to come into your heart. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with them with that person. and day with me. Revelation 32 3:20.

[00:58:33]Yeah, there's an invitation for God to connect, come into your life and transform it and have a have a real relationship with you, not this distant God.

[00:58:49]Um, that's that's all I have. Thank you.

[00:58:58]Well, brother, that was an amazing presentation. That was deep and thorough. And I I think like probably lots of other persons who may be watching this, I didn't quite realize how many um well, I won't call it sex, but h how many um rivers of thought there are, you know, different beliefs in in this this whole conundrum. Um because it really is a conundrum, isn't it? It it totally is. And um you know, and you've shown that really well and you you've explained that really well.

[00:59:33]Um yeah, there is quite a bit of tension and I could see see why that is at the heart of many of the sort of infighting within the different groups in Islam.

[00:59:44]Yeah, it's pretty amazing, >> right? Yeah. I didn't didn't realize um how different different the schools were from each other either.

[00:59:56]>> It surprised me.

[00:59:58]>> Yeah.

[01:00:00]>> Yeah.

[01:00:01]>> And ARI really does think quite differently from an Asherie and >> Yeah.

[01:00:07]>> Yeah. very clearly.

[01:00:10]>> Yeah. When a Muslim tells you and they'll often tell you, "Oh, we're all just Muslims. They're all we're all just the same." Um, what you need to know is what they're doing there is they're not truly representing what's what Muslims believe. That that's really just more of a da line.

[01:00:30]>> Try and um make it try and appeal to us uh uh um and uh what is it denominationalism trying to assert that trying to assert that they don't have denominationalism.

[01:00:44]But I mean there's even hadiths which say that Islam will split into 72 sects and then 71 of them are going to hell and only one of them is going to heaven.

[01:00:57]It's >> I'd forgotten that one.

[01:01:00]>> Yeah.

[01:01:01]Yeah. It's quite a serious issue in Islam.

[01:01:06]>> Yeah. I can see that it would be especially with all the different schools of thought. They're all fighting over it and and they have no indication which one is is the correct correct view.

[01:01:18]Yeah. Problem.

[01:01:20]>> Right. Yeah. And the aes will um assert that that their their view of Islam is more true to what the salif the original companions of Muhammad believed and therefore more genuine.

[01:01:35]Um but amongst that school are the um the Wahhabis, the Salafies and you know a lot of lot of heads rolled under under the rule and the um beliefs of um uh what is it? Muhammad Wahab, >> right? Well, they're still rolling today.

[01:02:01]It hasn't stopped.

[01:02:03]>> It hasn't stopped. No, unfortunately.

[01:02:06]Um, you know, the other thing that really showed throughout your whole presentation that I found was just how distant their God is. Like, how could you ever feel fulfilled, feel whole because he's so far away and he's so scary and you're not to do that. You're not to even basically imagine him.

[01:02:32]Although of course there's a conflicting hadith at the end there that you you brought up. Um but it's I I feel bad because Muslims must be innerly looking for something looking for something more. And of course there is no familial uh relationship with him.

[01:02:52]It's a master slave position. And this is just what I want Muslims to know.

[01:02:58]Listen to what brother Terrence has told told you tonight. Really look into it because God of the Bible Yahweh wants you near him. You know, even at the very beginning, he walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day. He called their names, but personal names. He knew who they were. He wants to know you better and be closer. And this is definitely what um brother Terrence has shown a huge difference between you know we we definitely do not believe in the same God.

[01:03:32]>> Yeah that that's so true. Um Allah is worlds apart from us and and um the God of the Bible is just worlds apart from Allah and and so much more um personal um a God you you you actually want to get to know.

[01:03:53]>> True, true, >> true. I think the thing about Allah is there's so many um well, you just want to tiptoe around him. He's like a well, he's exactly like the master of slaves.

[01:04:06]You know, you just always watching out if thunderbolts are going to be thrown at you or, you know, what is what's the next thing next calamity he's got planned for you. And um no, and yeah, it's just so interesting this anthroporphism, which I find very hard to say. Um it it's it's so um you know he's got two right hands but nothing nothing like we we can imagine all of those parts that you said nothing we can imagine. Well then why use those parts? Why even mention them?

[01:04:47]Maybe there a philosophical argument would have been better. you know, words like instead of using hands, Aloe with his power did this or I I don't know.

[01:04:58]Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Anyways, there must be some questions here >> um that we >> Yeah, there are. And yeah, I I agree. I mean, um, it just seems like this the absolute transcendence of Allah just really clashes strongly with what's written in the Quran and the hadith. The people of that time just hadn't >> they just didn't have >> divine transcendence in mind when they when when they um penned the Islamic sources, >> right? Um so we have uh radical love um quoted the ESV. No one has ever seen God. God the only son who is at the father's side. He has made him known yet. Uh yeah I love that verse. Yeah.

[01:05:43]And and there are some notable textual variance um with this verse. Some some the NIV says the only son who is at the father's side. I think um the scholars have settled more on being God being at with the father i.e. which is indicating that Jesus is God who is at the father's side um with this verse.

[01:06:10]Yeah, I I love quoting this verse uh especially when Muslims bring up John 17:3 when it talks about um the father being the only true true God. Um here we have the sun also being God and or the ver the ESV version I mentioned um it talks about um the sun being the only or being the only god.

[01:06:41]Yeah, >> we have >> there's a question earlier on on >> Okay, let's look at >> by that same fellow by that same fellow.

[01:06:51]Um, >> okay, this one here.

[01:06:54]>> Yes. Yes, there you go.

[01:06:57]>> If Houston Ula, thanks for your question. If talhed is the unification of Allah's 99 attributes, then it's a problem that many of these attributes are dependent on creation.

[01:07:13]>> Yeah.

[01:07:13]>> True.

[01:07:14]>> Yeah. How can Allah um be the most merciful or loving >> when if there was no creation there present um to show love or mercy to and if we had a triune God as you probably know very well um Houston Oiler uh we have father loving son loving father and in perfect um community with the holy spirit God is God has been expressing his love um between the um the members of the trinity for eternity just seems to be vastly superior to the um the absolute monad monad of Allah.

[01:08:08]Okay, let's see. Let me we um another one from Houston Oiler. Um he's quoted surah 1620.

[01:08:17]They have affirmed that Allah's attributes are not or may not quoted it.

[01:08:22]Um but I'll just read it verbatim. They have to affirm that Allah's attributes are not other than Allah because that would make them created according to the lit the literal of surah 16 20. Wait a second. I don't know. Surah 1620.

[01:08:41]>> 20. Yeah. Uh let me just com 1620.

[01:08:50]So oh okay 1620 in the sahi international and those they evoke other than Allah create nothing and they themselves are created. You're right. So Allah is the only creator. So um then they would be created attributes and um even the existence of distinct attributes to the Mzelites was problematic to them because they would argue all of a sudden you've got these separate because there's these distinctions. You've got these separate entities, separate divine entities. It's like there if if you consider each of the 99 um names of Allah a separate attribute then there would be 99 separate divine entities. Um are there 99 separate gods?

[01:09:40]I mean um the mutes reason yes there are. So they they had to equate um Allah with all of his attributes. Allah is his mercy, is his justice, is his power. Um, so all of those attributes collapse into one.

[01:09:59]>> Brother, can I just ask you? You you made a really interesting comment. I hadn't thought about it before. Um, maybe you'd like to enlarge on or expand on it a little bit more. Um, you talked about Allah's inner and outer voice, you know, the Quran on the uncreated tablets, but yet he's got an inner voice as well. Um could you is there can you say a little bit more about that?

[01:10:23]>> Yeah I I think I I think I want to um because I didn't really talk about Allah's speech in this talk but talking about bringing in Allah's um speech Allah's speech is eternal as as one of my friends um likes to say.

[01:10:41]How can God be without his speech? What would it be like for God to be a mute God? So Allah's speech you can easily reason that Allah speech has to be eternal. Uh only that the um Atheres and then the Ashis and and um Madaritis um think of Allah's speech in different ways. The um the the Atheris would say that Allah speech um consists it's part of Allah and it consists of physical vocal sounds and and letters whilst Um the the Asheries and Matarites would say um no well if if if that is what you mean by speech then speech is a a temporal sequence of words right and uh a temporal sequence is um created uh it seems to be something that's that's created uh so Allah's speech can't consist of Allah's eternal speech can't consist consist of a sequence of words.

[01:11:49]Um, so Allah's internal speech must be something from which is produced those words but doesn't consist of those words. But when you talk about the Quran then being pres produced, it sounds like it's being created which >> um and um that's an objection with that um Asherie and Matariti point of view from from the Atheris that they see that as problematic. They will even accuse Asheris and Mataritis of believing in a created Quran. Um, which again you don't really want to do. A lot of people died for that.

[01:12:31]>> Yeah.

[01:12:32]>> Yeah.

[01:12:35]>> Yeah. Thank you very much for that.

[01:12:37]Yeah, that was that was good. That was really good. Yeah.

[01:12:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Great question. Glad you picked up on it.

[01:12:47]>> Yeah. Um, do we have any more questions in the chat? I don't know if we do.

[01:12:56]Yeah.

[01:12:57]>> Oh, here we seen why G we why Jesus is we we have what's this? Why William Graves? Why Jesus is usual to measure the father? I'm not really sure about that one.

[01:13:18]Why God Oh, why God has a father. We might have a Muslim or a Unitarian in the midst.

[01:13:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, in case you missed it, William Graves, um, you know, you've got Allah consisting of multiple attributes. They they really sound like body parts that that it really sounds like Allah is composed of parts. Although the various schools of Islamic um thought, the Akita schools would say no, Allah doesn't consist of parts. We too believe that Allah is not a simple unity but a complex unity of father, son and holy spirit. Three persons. And so Jesus had a father. In his human nature he he consisted of two natures. Um but in his divine nature he was god. In his human nature he had a god. In his divine nature he was god.

[01:14:24]Um, and here here's here's another one from Houston Oiler. Um, the first and the last was a title of God in the Bible. It's >> do you get that?

[01:14:40]>> Sorry.

[01:14:41]>> Yeah.

[01:14:45]>> Okay. Sorry about that.

[01:14:46]>> That's an indicator that we should be finishing soon.

[01:14:52]>> Yeah. Okay. It's used by Jesus in the book of Revelation and by God of by God in the book of Israel. It's one of several of Jesus titles that that Allah stole. Yeah. And that's a great way. Go to go to Revelation 117 when your Muslim friend asks why we believe Jesus is God.

[01:15:11]Although of course there's so much evidence in in the scriptures that Jesus is God just in the >> Oh, I thought sorry I thought I I turned it off. I did.

[01:15:25]>> Okay, it is off now. Sorry.

[01:15:27]>> Oh, very good. Very good. Um yeah, know that's a good observation. Houston Oiler. It seems like Allah has stolen God's um divine title and used it or pair of divine diet titles because the first and the last constitute two names of Allah and just um applied it to himself.

[01:15:53]Yeah. No, I hope this teaching is is useful um in better connecting with the Muslim mind in and probably a lot of these hadiths won't be familiar to the Muslim um friend that you have nor even the Quran verses because we read our Bible much more than they read their Quran.

[01:16:16]>> Yeah.

[01:16:30]There's um >> we seem to have >> William Hard Graves um making a number of comments.

[01:16:42]Allan never used to be Jesus.

[01:16:45]Muslims said why Jesus was Jewish.

[01:16:49]So, so it is that he was a Muslim. Um, yeah, that's look, William, if you come back to this channel and um tune in more, you'll you'll get um um answers to some of these questions.

[01:17:08]I encourage you to come back and and uh listen more.

[01:17:19]Well, I would say Oh, >> I've got one more one more point that I don't know. Um, okay. So, given that under um Islam, we are not made in Allah's image, although >> they they did talk about, you know, Adam being um made from Allah's two hands in his image. Again, it's all there's always both sides, right, in it. But given given the fact that we aren't in general, we're not considered to be made in Allah's image. So therefore, >> do you think that this view has anything to do with the state of their culture? meaning slavery, low status of women, um not being able to question things maybe, you know, um like a lot of the Muslim countries aren't really high in um producing things, in creating things, scientific discoveries, you know, written books, um writings, movies, different things like that. Do do you think that that has played a part in in any and yeah in the lack of democracy?

[01:18:35]Do you think >> uh a lack of a lack of success of the ummah of the Islamic caliphate?

[01:18:43]>> Yeah.

[01:18:43]>> Um u I I don't want to speculate. I would I would definitely be be speculating.

[01:18:52]>> Yeah. I mean if it's often yeah possibly if the society of today is more likely to like the western society of today is more likely to elevate itself in a position um um that God would rightfully hold.

[01:19:15]And you know, we we seem to be at the high point of civilization at the moment. And um Islamic the uh the Sahaba, the companions of Muhammad, they've been been fighting with which with each other ever since pretty much the start of Islam. Doesn't seem like a high point there.

[01:19:34]>> No.

[01:19:36]Well, and the thing that I think too is, you know, everything that we've done, we've gotten rid of the West, the Christian West, has gotten rid of slavery. We've brought democracy in.

[01:19:47]We've um, you know, we hold that it doesn't matter because all of us are made in Yahweh's image. Um, we're all equal. Um, now now these are lofty lofty things to to try and attain, but we're trying to do it in our broken broken human way. And um I just think I I think that that myself I believe that that the very fact that I'm I'm made in God's image to love and and to you know to love my brothers to love everybody and try not to judge them. um is is just such a it all falls into this whole thing. Like I can imagine God when I think of God the Father, of course, I always think of flowing hair and white robes and he's sitting on a throne with all the angels fluttering about him and puffy white clouds and stuff like that.

[01:20:40]And and um but as a very loving, kind person that I'm trying to emulate here on earth, whereas Allah isn't like that at all.

[01:20:54]my well um if you know Allah is so high and lofty that you can never um get to him 40,000 veils of light >> and uh actually the word there I think in the Arabic is hijabs so Allah is wearing 40 sorry sorry 70,000 hijabs >> so inaccessible um and Um, you know, without Christ, that's the realistic picture between us and God. Our deeds are like filthy rags.

[01:21:30]>> Um, the separation between us and God because of his absolute purity. I mean, his his absolute love, but he's also just and um he's faithful and good. But we're not uh we we're dirty. We need we need cleansing by Christ's blood um to restore the closeness between us and God. Otherwise, it's not possible. So, I wonder if in some ways the Islamic view of transcendence, Allah's distance from us is depicting uh a part of God's reality without Christ.

[01:22:07]>> Oh. Oh, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense.

[01:22:12]>> Absolutely. Yeah.

[01:22:15]Yeah, question.

[01:22:17]>> Very good. Um, are there any more questions? I think there's some comments, but um um yeah, there's just some discussion with with that fellow there. So, I don't know, not really a question with on the topic unless you can see one. Can you see anything else?

[01:22:39]No, that's there's a there is a discussion there with William Graves, but >> yeah, that's it.

[01:22:48]>> Okay. Well, brother Terrence, thank you very much. That was just an awesome awesome that was a lot of work putting that together. Um that that was absolutely amazing. I've learned a lot from this tonight. I'm sure our audience has learned a lot as well. Um, and anything else you'd like to say to >> um, just keep engaging your Muslim friends. um try some of the material that we're presenting and I I pray that um your conversations will be more meaningful and I I believe um the an understanding um of where your Muslim friend is coming from at least helps break the ice and they they'll you'll find they appreciate um the fact that you understand a little bit about their what they believe.

[01:23:40]>> Yeah. Good. Good. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And um now I think I can say we leave you now with an outro unless you want to do a quick prayer before we go, brother.

[01:23:56]>> Yeah, I Yeah, I I will. Lord, I just pray that um you just um equip all of our brothers and sisters at home and in sitting in the pews and churches, Lord, with material so they can really um uh connect deeply with the Muslim mind and and share the the truth, the good news that you have to offer them, the hope um of a God who so wants to be close to them and see them forgiven and cleansed and and in an eternal relationship.

[01:24:29]Father, we pray for that equipping and we we pray for um the inter the interface with our Muslim communities to increase so that so many more Muslims can know the truth of what you've done for them. Jesus name.

[01:24:45]>> Amen. Amen. Thank you. Okay. Well, then we leave you now with an outro on our Saturday night live stream. Be sure to um like, subscribe, share this video with everyone else. Please come back on Sunday for our regular shows at 5:00 p.m. at 400 p.m. Eastern. Um no, sorry, 400 p.m. um Pacific time and Thursdays of course for this round table um at 5:00 p.m. on Thursdays. So we look forward to seeing all all of you and God bless.

[01:25:20]>> God bless. Heat.

[01:25:40]Heat.