Episode 381: The Happiness Crisis: Why Hard Things Lead to Joy | feat. Jon Eckert

[00:00:11]Thanks for tuning in to Becoming Something, where we promise to keep the conversation honest and real for young adults in their 20s and 30s.

[00:00:20]Every moment we live is training for a future moment, and that's why we do this podcast, because [music] we want you to be prepared for everything that life is going to throw at you.

[00:00:29]Our hope with this podcast is that it would help you become all that God desires you to be.

[00:00:34]So, with that in mind, let's jump right in to this week's episode of Becoming Something.

[00:00:47]What's up, podcast world? It's your boy, JP, in the podcast studio with Catherine.

[00:00:51]>> Hello.

[00:00:51]>> Catherine Harley-Davidson.

[00:00:54]Your husband's on vacation?

[00:00:56]>> Yeah, he just left me for the week with three of our kids.

[00:00:58]>> Went to He's at the casino in Punta Cana?

[00:01:01]>> No comment. No, they're at uh Dominican Republic. Oh.

[00:01:05]>> Teaching Judah how to gamble.

[00:01:07]>> They're with This is crazy. Do you remember that we interviewed Mission of Hope founder a few years ago on the podcast?

[00:01:14]>> Yeah.

[00:01:14]>> Yes.

[00:01:15]I think in the episode we said, "You guys should go like intern or work for Mission" I don't know, we said something like that.

[00:01:23]>> Yeah.

[00:01:23]>> He gets off the plane, gets to Mission of Hope um for this mission trip that he's on with our son.

[00:01:28]>> Yeah.

[00:01:28]>> And one of the guys working there is like, "I'm here because of that episode."

[00:01:32]>> Becoming Something.

[00:01:32]>> And hearing about what God was doing through them, I wanted to get involved.

[00:01:36]So, full circle moment.

[00:01:37]>> We also like that we basically ran out of guests, okay? Like, nobody will We can't pay people to be on the show. So, I just started knocking on doors on my street. And I'm just like asking my neighbors, like, "Hey, would you come please come be on the podcast?"

[00:01:51]>> What an introduction to our esteemed guests for today.

[00:01:54]>> Well, everybody just stopped uh listening at that >> Yeah, they're like, "I'm turning this one >> It's name. Well, we're going to get him back. We're going to get him back with this because Okay, so John Eckhardt is a dear friend and author and and Okay, there's a lot of you know smartest, best things, a lot of superlatives coming.

[00:02:14]Has read more books than any human being I've ever met and and I can almost promise you more than any human being you've ever met. I will I will lend him a book and a few hours later he'll be like, "Hey, I'm going to put it back in your mailbox." I'm like, "What?"

[00:02:29]I'm like, "You read it?" He He's the fastest reader I've ever met. The smartest guy I know personally right now. And um and and just you know, think of like if you know the name Jonathan Haidt um the anxious generation, think of like the Christian Jonathan Haidt.

[00:02:46]This episode, listen, if you are a teacher or an education or you know a teacher, if you know anybody that works for a school, I want you to send them this episode, okay?

[00:02:59]If you are a parent of a child of any age, I want you to lean in. And if you desire to be happy, okay? I know John of a of a front row seat, quite literally, I have a window I have a front row window >> That is accurate.

[00:03:15]>> into his life.

[00:03:17]Us, yeah.

[00:03:18]>> Very good.

[00:03:18]>> He's a great husband, he has a great marriage, they've raised incredible children who love Jesus. And um and he lives on the best street in the world, a lot of people would say. Uh so But how about that You also said one of the most interesting things of any guest we've ever had.

[00:03:35]You zipped up your jacket and said I don't want my wounds to start seeping.

[00:03:44]>> [laughter] >> What?

[00:03:44]>> Hey.

[00:03:45]>> What? So it's all >> even authenticity here.

[00:03:48]>> You You talk about this all the time.

[00:03:49]It's joy over joy over happiness.

[00:03:51]Happiness is joy comes from something deeper. Right now, I'm experiencing great joy cuz I'm actually standing upright today, unlike yesterday. So, I had some surgery done on just a few days ago, and I'm really happy to be here because it's better than where I was at yesterday.

[00:04:08]>> I mean, the dude shows up with bullet wounds or something, and he doesn't >> It's definitely not. It's definitely not. The wounds don't sleep, and now I'm nervous to look over at you.

[00:04:17]>> And just like, what?

[00:04:19]>> We're covered, Kathy.

[00:04:20]We're good.

[00:04:21]>> Wow, man. So, you wrote >> Thank you for sacrificing so much to be here for us.

[00:04:25]>> You wrote The Happiness Crisis, which is a great cover.

[00:04:28]>> title.

[00:04:29]>> How adversity can build a resilient and joyful next generation. I I feel like that is the understated secret to joy is hardship. Like, tell me about that.

[00:04:42]What does that even mean?

[00:04:43]>> Well, we know this all the time. If you're trying to compare your happiness to some idealized version, as your expectation goes up, you have a lot more room for disappointment, and the room for gratitude and joy diminishes. And so, in a world where we expect to get through life without trouble, which obviously is not a biblical principle at all. In this world, we will have trouble. It is this notion that kids, and I'd say that's Gen Z, Gen Alpha, has been set up to believe that that's possible.

[00:05:12]It's a hard no. And one of the things I love about Gen Z, and so many of your listeners are in that generation, is they're not buying that anymore.

[00:05:20]>> Yeah, it's not working for them.

[00:05:20]>> It doesn't work. And we have more kids that are, you know, been diagnosed with anxiety disorders, depression, you know, they're taking medication, they're on they're in therapy, some of which needs to happen, but it's not leading to more joyful lives because happiness as it's currently defined, it's interesting we're talking about this on the 250th anniversary of our country and the Declaration of Independence, pursuit of happiness is is inalienable right.

[00:05:46]And yet, in that pursuit, you never attain what it is you want to attain.

[00:05:52]And research have shown that. As As you keep trying to attain happiness, you're always measuring against it. So, you're always come up coming up wanting.

[00:06:00]Now, Jefferson wasn't talking about the kind of happiness we're talking about.

[00:06:03]It was much more of the Aristotelian eudemonic flourishing. That's what we're >> those words. You have a Aristotelian and you don't you don't eudemonic. It's Greek.

[00:06:14]>> It's Greek. You know, you're you're Greek all the time. You're Greek all the time.

[00:06:18]>> That means >> We are so smart, you don't need to >> You got that at TSTC. Come on.

[00:06:23]Aristotelian and eudemonic. I told you guys, smartest person I know in this >> Let's put some context to that.

[00:06:27]>> But that's Second to Kathy.

[00:06:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, Kathy can quote scripture unlike anybody else. And so And And what I see is you live that out.

[00:06:36]You know, I I get to see your family up close. I get to see what you do. Kathy, I hear you talk about Matt. Even Nate outkicking his coverage with Adalie.

[00:06:44]Like There's There's this appreciation and gratitude that comes. Like That exceeded expectations. And so, the world gets that. But how do we get more of that?

[00:06:53]>> He did greet me today by telling me I have a mental illness. But besides from that, besides from that, you know. No, he diagnosed me properly. He said, "No, you don't have that. You have this." I was like, "Okay. Thank you." It is not a mental illness, >> [laughter] >> just to be clear. Okay. So, the happiness crisis. All right.

[00:07:12]>> How did >> Like And you know, I worked I worked for one of the wealthiest churches in the country. And And all All of that means is you have a front row seat of billionaires. I mean, I I see kids who literally take helicopters to school. I don't I don't Not like there's a bunch of those, but I knew of one.

[00:07:31]Um And And you know, families that live I mean, I'm talking their their the guard houses are bigger than our house, which is you know, it's just wild to think about. The the place where the security stays. Um houses with with um with staff, with faculty, and with a staff.

[00:07:51]And and these kids you So, you you think like I mean, when you turn 16, you get a Lamborghini. You know, when you turn 16, you can choose a Ferrari. And you would think, well, they are going to be the most happy.

[00:08:03]But, they're not. There's a significant gap and and and in fact, sometimes, if they didn't have the the main things in the right place, they were rather depressed.

[00:08:14]And it's it is fascinating that if you're pursuing happiness, what that means is you don't have it.

[00:08:19]>> That's right.

[00:08:20]>> And uh and so, it's like, you know, how does someone obtain it? If if that's like my I I think often we're not on a truth journey. You know, we are on a happiness journey, meaning that that the vast majority of the population didn't wake up today and say, "What is absolute truth and how do I find it?" They said, "Hey, what's going to make me the most happy and how do I achieve it?"

[00:08:40]>> Right.

[00:08:41]>> And so, what would you say?

[00:08:42]>> Well, longest-running study in history, longest-running social studies social science study ever done, started in 1938 at Harvard. Studied 724 men at the time, but they've now studied their descendants. And they came out with a book in 2023 on this study called The Good Life. And one of the main findings was a good life, a rich life, is forged precisely from the things that make it hard.

[00:09:09]So, we need to be inviting each other into struggle because often times, the depth of the struggle determines the peak of the joy.

[00:09:18]>> Wow, the depth of the struggle determines the peak of the joy.

[00:09:21]>> Yeah. So, if we don't invite kids into adversity, not trauma. We don't want trauma. Kids go through trauma. We don't want that. The Lord can redeem that, but that's not what we want. But, how do we get them to do hard things with others that builds belonging and then cultivates curiosity. So, we talk about it as the ABCs of joy. Adversity, belonging, curiosity. Very Harris Creek, you know, pastor ready with your three points with the ABCs. Easy to remember.

[00:09:48]And the older you get, the more you realize that's true. And so, what we want kids to develop is this gritty optimism. And by kids, I mean anybody younger than I am because that's how we think about things. But, how do you develop a gritty optimism? The belief that you can become more of who you were created to be, not just naively.

[00:10:05]>> someone?

[00:10:06]>> Yes, becoming someone based on evidence and experience.

[00:10:11]So, how do we, as we see the sanctification process take place? How do we have evidence that we can become more of who we're meant to be as we help bring about the kingdom on Earth as we make the Earth more of what it was meant to be pre-fall and what it will be when Christ returns. That's what we get to invite people into. And as Christians, we should be the most joyful people ever. And that's not the happiest place ever. Like Disneyland can be the happiest place on Earth. Our homes, our schools, the courts we invite kids into, the fields that we have them play on, they should be the most joyful places on Earth because they're going to be hard and they're going to be joyful, which is different than the way we think about happiness right now.

[00:10:51]>> So, why is this such an epidemic now?

[00:10:54]What What has changed in America or in our culture today to where kids are pursuing happiness, not attaining it, and miserable and depressed?

[00:11:05]>> Well, this is where JP brought up Jonathan Haidt and his work on the anxious generation and social media and phones. That's accelerated a lot of this. These things were all there. COVID did not help. We've also moved into therapy speak. People who aren't therapists are constantly diagnosing things. And you're joking about you're joking about >> your mental health.

[00:11:25]>> Pot calling the kettle black over here.

[00:11:28]>> [laughter] >> Um we have all kinds of people who aren't qualified to identify. You sit around in middle school >> GPT and a counselor >> You're telling me I shouldn't take my medication for my ADHD, Dr. Jonathan?

[00:11:40]Absolutely, you should if you need it because it marginalizes kids who actually have the issues and we have people diagnosing kids who don't. And then AI, the most sycophantic thing ever invented, it's 50% more sycophantic that sucking up to you.

[00:11:56]>> what it means, but >> Yes. Yes.

[00:11:57]>> [laughter] >> It sucks up to you to keep you on. Yeah.

[00:12:01]Especially chat does this. Claude's way more blunt with you than chat is. But 72% of kids last year, teenagers, turned to chatbots for companionship.

[00:12:12]Yeah, 72%. Now >> One in five saw it romantic relationship for >> Yeah, New York Times article One out of five. And then I don't know if you remember the picture of the guy on it, but they had a picture of the guy that was seeking it. It's like That's creepy.

[00:12:26]>> Yeah.

[00:12:27]>> That's creepy. And so it's like it's not the kids that are getting it wrong. It's the millennials and Gen Zs who have set kids up to believe that this is the world we should be operating in. And so in this pursuit of happiness, we've sent them down this dead end road.

[00:12:40]>> Well, okay, isn't it called lawnmower parenting? Yes. Where it's like you try to remove all obstacles for your kids.

[00:12:47]Do you think that by removing all these obstacles, by trying to make life as easy and as fun as possible, we have just ruined our kids?

[00:12:54]>> Well, you haven't ruined them. They're amazingly resilient.

[00:12:58]>> Yes.

[00:12:58]>> That that's part of what it is. So we used to have helicopter parents that just would hover. It's moved to lawnmower parents and then the Atlantic last year had this article on the >> you remove the the obstacles.

[00:13:08]>> So you lay it lay it flat.

[00:13:10]>> There's I don't want you to forget what you're going to say, but I just want to insert here that I am the nation's leading expert on lawnmower parenting because I was flown to Times Square, to New York City, where I was going to be interviewed in front of 5 million people for a major TV network. uh, I thought on my book and a few hours prior to the interview, they reached out, the executive producer reached out and said, "Hey, we'd like for you to speak on lawn mower parenting." And uh, I was like, "What is that?"

[00:13:40]>> [laughter] >> So, I had to brush up on on uh, lawn mower parenting so that I could go on national TV and speak on it.

[00:13:45]>> Yeah, it is comical what's going on right now for for parents just laying these things flat. And so, The Atlantic had an article that talked about the lawn mower parent that has a kid go to college and they referred to them as the trailing parent. So, parents are now when their kid goes off to college, they're like, "Well, we're just going to get an apartment in town in case they need me." When they go overseas for study abroad trips to understand other cultures, it's like, "Hey, maybe we'll just go and rent a place there too just in case they need us." And then one professor cited a parent that had called him asking to come and sit by her daughter to help her take notes in class. So, trailing parents, that was a new term. And it's like, "We're not even letting adults go." So, your audience has parents that are not letting the other follow them. They're still keeping their locations cuz I just might need to know where they're at and I need to know and it's like we have taken adolescence and extended it well into the 20s.

[00:14:39]>> Yeah, and in case you're like, "Well, what do you know?" Um, John was a professor at Wheaton College. His family moved from Chicago to the great city of Waco. Senior professor of at Baylor.

[00:14:51]Senior professor at Baylor and where he leads a school of leadership. And so, um, it's pretty awesome.

[00:14:58]>> Like, you're working with a product of this kind of parenting.

[00:15:01]>> If you needed another reason to move to Waco. That's it. Come on.

[00:15:03]>> Waco's the best. Waco's the best. No, so we I get to work with undergrad students. I've had my own children when we moved here, we had elementary, middle, and high school kids. And now they're moving through college and one has graduated and gainfully employed, so he's no longer on my dime. That happens.

[00:15:19]And then I get to work with educators from all over the world. So, at the center, we support leaders in 50 countries and all 50 states. And wherever I go, it's not just a US phenomenon. This is everywhere where parents are feeling this and it's out of good intentions that we want to have our kids having their best lives. But by doing that, oftentimes we're robbing them of the opportunity to do hard things with others. And it's how do we get them to lean away from that? So.

[00:15:47]>> to make sure you pick up The Happiness Crisis. I want to say it again. Like, grab this book, available everywhere books are sold. And uh you, you know, get a couple copies, get some for friends. If you know anyone in education, or really anyone who has influence over the next generation. I'm talking youth pastors. I'm talking young adult pastors, pastors in general.

[00:16:06]Anybody who's influencing the next generation, and especially parents, make sure you pick up this book. And then if you're in your 20s and you're looking for the secret to happiness, make sure you grab this book.

[00:16:18]But what's this What is What's the solution? Like, so I've got two two-part question. You can go wherever you want, but it's it's one is like, "Hey, how do we introduce adversity into the situation?" And then two, you know, there's so much like everybody and I I don't want to say this flippantly.

[00:16:37]Like, there are real victims of abuse out there. Let me just say that. That's real and true and right and and, you know, and what happened to you was terrible. And and so I sit where I receive phone calls that like, "Hey, I have church hurt. I was abused by my church." And that can mean anything from, you know, I I on on one end of the spectrum, I was had incurred sexual abuse when I was a child by my priest or or something horrific over here, which is terrible, traumatic, and and I'm so sorry.

[00:17:11]But over here, it's like, "Well, I auditioned for, you know, the worship team and they rejected me.

[00:17:19]And I'm I'm never going to church again.

[00:17:20]I'm like, "What How can you put those two things in the same category?"

[00:17:24]And so, how do we I'm saying that to to ask this question. How do we introduce adversity without going too far, even as parents or teachers or administrators or whatever that is? Because like the other thing is we were talking recently about like an athletic you know, uh it was a soccer team where there was like I mean they were they were grabbing kids at an early age and and they were basically going through all kinds of trauma and they were producing great athletes, but at what cost, right? And so, what does that look like? So, how do we introduce adversity and then how much is too far?

[00:17:59]>> Yeah, so I think the real clear delineation is adversity, not trauma.

[00:18:05]Right. We do not want kids to have more trauma. They already come with that.

[00:18:08]That is not a good thing. Now, again, the Lord can >> don't know that parents can discern that, right? Like that's the challenge.

[00:18:13]>> But I don't think where the lawnmower parent is discerning. It's like, "Hey, my kid has a hard time getting along with those kids." Or my kid's going off to college. Like they're not thinking, "I need to trail with them to avoid the trauma." They're just like, "I just need to be there for comfort."

[00:18:30]It's almost the difference between self-care and self-comfort.

[00:18:32]>> Yeah.

[00:18:33]>> Like we need to take care of ourselves so we can take care of others, but sitting there >> But I kind of disagree. Like I think I don't know that they I don't think they I think they conflate those issues. I think that's the problem.

[00:18:45]>> What?

[00:18:45]>> That's my my That was why I went and probably didn't probably wouldn't have been there. Like that's how they conflate That's how they conflate with you know, the the abuse, right? Is they're like, "Hey, I I I incurred abuse just like they did." I'm like, "Well, what was your abuse?" Like, "Well, I didn't They said I was I was too pitchy on the worship team." And it's like, "Oh, man."

[00:19:03]>> Yeah. Well, I I think the other way we can go >> I'm not making a joke here. Just cuz I'm so proud of myself. I'm so proud of myself.

[00:19:11]>> But by saying I'm not making a joke and pointing the first person >> the Holy Spirit constrained me and I feel the need to point that out.

[00:19:17]>> bringing up how cute she I am. Continue.

[00:19:18]>> Uh yeah, I I've heard that on previous podcast, so that that's that's it. So, I think if we can help adults understand how happiness and joy are different, maybe that's a way to help push them that way because happiness, circumstantial, self-focused, and it's fleeting.

[00:19:39]It will wither in struggle. Like, hey, where do we get away from that to joy, which is this sense of enduring love and gratitude for others that emerges through struggle. So, one of the ways I try to get parents and educators to think differently is who are the most joyful people you know?

[00:19:56]And oftentimes those people are not people that have had easy lives.

[00:20:00]>> Yeah, never.

[00:20:00]>> They've had some of the hardest lives.

[00:20:02]That's right. And so, it's like, hey, then how do you get to that? And that joy is in those everyday things and knowing and and think about any team that you feel connected to, whether it's a church team, an athletic team, a performing arts you you did a play, you did something. When you get through those hard things together, you are more bonded and connected than you were before. You can't build the kind of connection you have at Harris Creek or the kind of connections you've had other places without going through those hard things. And so, it's like, hey, do you want to keep your kids from that?

[00:20:37]>> Yeah.

[00:20:37]>> Because that's what you're doing. You're robbing of them of the chance to experience that joy because the depth of the struggle will determine that.

[00:20:45]Sometimes the depth of the struggle just leads to frustration. I want to be clear. Struggle does not equal joy. But the only way to get to real joy is to go through those hard things together. It's James 1 2 through 4.

[00:20:57]>> You see, I know you're dropping bars because, you know, I'm the spiritual warfare guy. Stuff's falling off the walls, lights are cutting off, all of a sudden I just hear like things falling in the other room. I don't know what's happening in here, but I know you're dropping bars because the enemy's not happy about it. But he's like, "Yeah, man, that's that's a great Yeah, we're going through adversity. We're going to be We're going to be more joyful.

[00:21:17]>> Okay, you're saying not every time we go through adversity does it like sometimes it's frustration, sometimes it's to joy.

[00:21:24]>> Everything okay, Coley?

[00:21:25]>> Yeah.

[00:21:25]>> I mean, we got stuff falling while I mean that there was You didn't even see it. A light turned off over here. I'm just like I'm telling you this we're under spiritual attack right now.

[00:21:33]Okay, go ahead.

[00:21:34]>> What makes the difference in those moments?

[00:21:36]>> Yeah.

[00:21:37]>> How do we, you know, help our kids or how do we go through adversity in a way that's going to produce joy versus just lead to frustration?

[00:21:43]>> So again, all the research out there, again, it's common grace. There's so much out there. Jonathan Haidt's a perfect example. There's a lot of wisdom out in research that says, "Hey, to help kids get through that." It's great to tell them an inspiring story of someone else, but they have to be able to tell their own stories. So how do they get surprised by their own resilience? So there's another great example. A college professor tells a story of this student who had a panic attack on an exam.

[00:22:09]And she doesn't want to take the next exam. Even though she completed the exam >> Yeah.

[00:22:15]>> and passed the test.

[00:22:17]She doesn't want to take another one and the therapist cannot help her get through it. She's like, "But I had a panic attack."

[00:22:22]>> Yeah.

[00:22:23]>> She's defining herself >> Yeah.

[00:22:25]>> with the deficits >> good.

[00:22:27]>> as opposed to what she overcame.

[00:22:30]The only way we get kids to see their way to joy is to see the joy that emerges through those wins. It's a reframing of a mindset.

[00:22:38]>> I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but like when I when I had panic and anxiety anxiety and which led to panic attacks, uh I I went to see a therapist. He gave me a book, essentially prescribed a workbook that I was working through.

[00:22:52]And I learned something fascinating.

[00:22:54]Like psychologically speaking, that when you avoid something because of your condition, it becomes a disorder.

[00:23:02]>> Yeah. So at what point does panic attack become panic attack disorder? At what point does anxiety become anxiety disorder?

[00:23:09]For example, social anxiety disorder.

[00:23:12]And that's when you avoid situations because people are there. If you push through it, you just have social anxiety, but not a disorder because you're able to continue to do through.

[00:23:22]And what happens like in public speaking, when you avoid the stage because, you know, your your fear of people or fear of public speaking or whatever it is, well, now that becomes a disorder and it it and you've actually it's grown. You've compounded it. But if you'll push through that and say, "I am so nervous right now. I I fear you all so much. I care so much about what you think of me that I can't even feel my legs right now." That now you're pushing through it, you're working through it and and the the anxiety is actually diminishing. Your fear of public speaking is actually diminishing because you're going through it.

[00:24:00]>> And then when you've done that, you have the belief and knowledge that you can do it again.

[00:24:04]>> it.

[00:24:04]>> And you're going to be better for it.

[00:24:06]Now, I have a humorous surgery story, nothing gross here, but I'm in recovery and they roll this guy in while I'm just waking up from this ketamine trip. I'm working on this adaptive challenge for this school in my head and I told the nurse that she's like, "Well, that's kind of a weird ketamine trip. That's not what most people do." Well, this guy comes in and he's throwing punches, he's cursing at everybody. My nurse runs over there, six of them around it. I feel like I was in an episode of The Pit.

[00:24:30]They can't get him calmed down and then all of a sudden somebody's like shaking me. She's like, "You got to wake up. You got to breathe for us." And she's like, "And your heart rate's over 200. Is this normal for you?" And then they bring the anesthesiologist in and he's like, "Well, we need to give him some versed, we need to give So like I'm going into this panic attack because as an Enneagram three, I'm getting annoyed at myself that I cannot bring my heart rate down. So it's just accelerating it. And so finally they're like and they're asking me, is this typical for you? I start reciting off my statistics from my Apple Watch when I work out my heart rate is usually this, my resting heart rate is this cuz I am mentally going through I know I'm okay.

[00:25:10]>> Yeah.

[00:25:10]>> This is what it's going to be. My heart rate they sent me home from the hospital, my heart rate never got under 100 because Jeremy this this guy >> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:25:17]>> We don't know if we can say his name, but Jeremy so stressed me out that I'm borderline hitting into a panic attack.

[00:25:24]But I know from cuz I had panic attacks in middle school cuz I was losing grandparents and people were sick and I just and I was like I realized how I had to get through it. Like hey, the Lord's got me.

[00:25:34]>> Yeah.

[00:25:35]>> I've gotten through this before. This isn't real. This is just in my head and then you move through it. But if kids don't get a chance to do that and they get medicated at age 11, which some kids need to be, I'm not saying that that all kids don't, then how do you ever learn to get through that?

[00:25:49]>> I get hit all the time. I don't know if it happens to dads, but I get the like Instagram reels about how to be a perfect parent, but I think it's like a Dutch style of parenting where at dinner time they go around and the parents will share what didn't go well in their day, what failures they had because it teaches your kids it's okay, it's very normal to have something not go the way you want it to. It's okay to fail and here's how we push through that adversity and here's how we got to the other side. I think that would be helpful. It's not like hey, I don't want to bulldoze, get rid of all the problems you're going to go through, but let me teach you what to do when you go through them because that's a very normal concept.

[00:26:29]>> it's fascinating. I don't I don't know if we've talked about this, but the the most successful person I know uh he his his family is of one of uh matriarchy. So both grandmothers were wildly successful in their own field.

[00:26:46]And one of them was like hey, I want every time when saw him, she says hey, tell me about a sto- tell me the last time you failed."

[00:26:53]>> Yes.

[00:26:54]>> Like I want to hear the story of of where you failed.

[00:26:56]>> Yes.

[00:26:57]>> And that was what shaped him into being in in in truly like self-made >> Yeah.

[00:27:03]>> in multiple fields.

[00:27:04]>> Yes.

[00:27:05]>> So.

[00:27:05]>> Well, and that's the key. I was I was going to say, we've got to get kids to tell that story. So, whether you're 25 or you're 10, you need to tell the stories where you were surprised by how you came through on the other side of adversity because then you begin to believe it. And sometimes our kids lead us into stupid stuff. This is why I ended up running with the bulls in Pamplona, Spain with my 19-year-old son cuz he's an idiot with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. And he is seeking status cuz that's the other thing. At age 10, boys and girls start to get increased levels of testosterone that get released.

[00:27:39]>> I assure you he's not an idiot. He clearly is brilliant.

[00:27:43]Yeah, so you're he's brilliant.

[00:27:44]>> And JP's correcting me. I used to be that harsh. Ben is awesome. Ben is Ben's amazing. But he has that 18 19-year-old brain. It's like, "Hey, I'm going to do this." And it's not just the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. They start seeking status where they want to get status with peers and they want to be part of the adult world. That's why so many cultures have these rights of passage that happen at 13. And so for Ben, one of them was, "I'm going to run with the bulls." And that story of us doing that together after the We watch the first day. They do it eight days in a row at 8:00 a.m. So, it's like Mardi Gras all night. And then at 8:00 a.m.

[00:28:18]they release 12 bulls into the street and thousands of people run with them into the bullring. That's That's the goal. So, we watch it one night over looking over Dead Man's Curve. Sorry, in the morning. See a guy get trampled by four bulls.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah.

[00:28:29]>> And I look over at him after it's done.

[00:28:31]I was like, "Hey, what do you think of that, Ben?" I'm thinking this is going to cure him from wanting to do it cuz blood's pouring profusely from his head.

[00:28:38]This has become a very graphic podcast, by the way. Um but the I was he's And his only response is, "That was awesome."

[00:28:45]>> Yeah.

[00:28:45]>> Now, it's because he saw the status he would gain >> Yeah.

[00:28:49]>> by doing this and being able to tell his friends that he had done it.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah.

[00:28:53]>> And so then that night I'm left with do I do the dumbest thing I've ever done >> Yeah.

[00:28:56]>> or am I a bad dad and I just let him do it on his own. So, the next morning at 7:56 a.m. I've got this video of us 4 minutes before the gun's going to go off with our neckerchiefs on ready to run with all these people. I was like, "Hey Ben, how's it feel right now?" He's like, "This is real now. This is real now. I'm a little jittery, but let's see how this goes." And then we run the fastest quarter of a mile in our lives, jumped over all kinds of people to get in the bull ring.

[00:29:20]>> Yeah.

[00:29:21]>> But that's it. It's getting in the ring.

[00:29:23]And so sometimes it's just, "Hey, how do we let our kids pull us into those things?" So, I've told that story hundreds of times now in keynotes all over the world and it lands for every kid and every adult because we've all been in that moment of like, "Am I going to do this?" Nobody's died running with the bulls since 2009.

[00:29:40]>> Yeah.

[00:29:41]>> die unless you get gored. So, you know, he's like, "I just got trampled. It's It's fine."

[00:29:47]>> What?

[00:29:47]>> Again, when you have to say that, you know it's stupid. But there is something to that and having those adventures and knowing that you're going to make it through. I don't recommend running with the bulls, but it's amazing and sometimes it's just >> hard things?

[00:29:59]>> Do hard things.

[00:30:00]>> Like do hard things.

[00:30:00]>> Do hard things.

[00:30:01]>> Okay, you were saying earlier, I want to go back to it, the ABCs.

[00:30:04]>> Yes.

[00:30:05]>> Can you A say them again? Adversity, belonging, curiosity.

[00:30:09]>> Curiosity.

[00:30:10]>> I should have guessed that.

[00:30:11]>> Where you going?

[00:30:12]>> But I'm just saying give us examples.

[00:30:14]What does that look like?

[00:30:15]>> Do we If you're a teacher, if you're working with students, if you are like how do we implement this into our life?

[00:30:21]>> So, Cathy, you know this from the, you know, Harris Creek team.

[00:30:24]>> Yes.

[00:30:24]>> When you go through hard things here, which there are plenty of hard things in a big church. There's plenty of hard things in a small church. When you get through those things >> I mean >> Yeah.

[00:30:33]>> Yeah.

[00:30:33]>> Being told I'm pitchy singing in worship >> Well, never said you're pitchy.

[00:30:37]>> So, on that note, my mom would always hit me over the head with James 1 >> I did I I I did say that. I'm sorry.

[00:30:44]>> Okay, let's keep going.

[00:30:45]>> James 1:2, my mom would hit me with this on Saturday morning chores every Saturday. Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. I'm like, no.

[00:30:52]Like, I hated that verse cuz she used it as a like >> Yeah.

[00:30:56]>> beat you over the head with it.

[00:30:58]There's this clause in it. Consider it pure joy when you face trials before you say when you face trials of many kinds, my brothers and sisters.

[00:31:05]>> Mhm.

[00:31:05]>> It's like, hey, when we get to carry those burdens together >> Love.

[00:31:09]>> Like, I it's all because of Christ.

[00:31:10]>> Even 1 Peter 5, since you know the brothers and sisters throughout the world have undergone the same kind of suffering.

[00:31:16]>> Yes. Yes. So, the body of Christ carries it with you.

[00:31:19]Hebrews 12:1 and 2.

[00:31:21]Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders us, the sin that so easily entangles us, and run the race marked out for us.

[00:31:30]Because of the joy set before Christ, he endured the cross.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah.

[00:31:33]>> So, it's like, it's not minimizing our suffering. It's like, how do we lean into that together? Because that's how he brings his work to completion in us.

[00:31:41]That's where James 1:4 ends. It's like, hey, when you go through those things together, you know you belong. And our heart's longing is not to just be included. It's to be just to belong, which means we matter and others matter to us. So, when you're in survival mode, that's when your best friends show up.

[00:31:57]>> Yes.

[00:31:58]>> So, everybody knows that. You have the fun friends, you have the people, but your real friends are the ones that show up when it's hard. And you only know that >> What's that?

[00:32:05]>> I said, or they'll drag you on a podcast cuz you're suffering. I called him yesterday. I was like, hey, any way you could do it tomorrow?

[00:32:10]>> [laughter] >> I knew he just got out of surgery.

[00:32:12]>> I'm I'm in because there's joy in this and his daughter on Saturday had no idea I'd had surgery. She shows up with chocolate chip cookies. Uh which Finley, by the way. Which JP then claimed he had made >> [laughter] >> classic fashion. They were too good for for JP to admit.

[00:32:30]>> really good.

[00:32:31]>> But so, there's this sense that I know I matter to JP. JP's family matters to our family. And so, we belong. And but you only know that when you go through hard things, which you don't want.

[00:32:41]>> up for you.

[00:32:42]>> So then the curiosity piece is this. I'm an educator, so of course I'm curious about everything. It's why I read so much. There's so much great stuff out there.

[00:32:50]But it's really in a time where our country's become very incurious about others.

[00:32:56]How does curiosity about others get generated through that? So if you see someone who you disagree with, are you immediately like, I don't want to talk to them? They're the enemy. They're the other. Or are you curious about why they believe what they believe? This is why I think your questions that you ask people that you meet, you are genuinely curious about why they disagree with you. And you will listen. Now it has to be sincere, because if they feel like it's insincere and it's not real curiosity, they're going to see it as like, oh, you're just manipulating me. But how do we get more curious about others?

[00:33:28]Because that leads to more belonging.

[00:33:30]And it leans into hard conversations. So what I make every incoming Baylor student, who I speak to all the incoming freshman. So I'll talk to 6,000 people this year in Waco Hall.

[00:33:41]I make them meet someone they didn't come with. And I they ask, what's the high point, low point, and turning point of your life?

[00:33:47]Pick one and tell me. And then I invite two of them to come up on the stage, introduce their new friend, and share one of those three things. And then I just give them a Fabled gift card and and they're good. But it's like, hey, we don't want to do small talk.

[00:34:01]We want to be seen, known, and loved. So let's get to the real stuff.

[00:34:05]And so it's been amazing some kids go, I was was when I was baptized, was when I accepted Christ, was when I got accepted to Baylor. Like it's such a blessing to hear that. So like, let's just get to it. So be curious.

[00:34:16]>> Come on, man.

[00:34:17]I love it. I I know you're just getting warmed up and wrapping up.

[00:34:21]Any Do you have any final thoughts? Any final thoughts from you?

[00:34:25]>> No, I mean >> Okay, I have one.

[00:34:26]>> Good good good good good.

[00:34:28]>> I'm just thinking a lot of our listeners, Gen Z, 20s, 30s, they may have been parented in a way that has only perpetuated some of these issues. Is there some like action step that they could take today? Like what's something if you're like, oh man, this is me, this is how I've been raised. I've had every trouble mowed out of the way for me for years. What's the thing I should do?

[00:34:48]>> say this.

[00:34:51]You know, 20 years pastoral ministry, predominantly with 20-somethings, people fresh out of the nest, if you will, like just right out of college.

[00:35:03]I've seen people and and pastored, shepherded people who have endured some of the most heinous abuse. I mean, some of them sexual and physical abuse. And um and just terrible things happened to them. And and and truly like a lot of them were like overcomers. They rose above that. They found the the path of joy in the midst of that.

[00:35:29]I you know, it's interesting to me that I think the most memorable most hurt individual that I had ever counseled pastored shepherded um was someone and what their therapist prescribed like their uh their issue, their situation was enmeshment.

[00:35:53]Um their their parents were too involved.

[00:35:57]And that's that's what created the symptom of their I'm saying in air quotes abuse, if you will. And and that always stuck with me. Like that was fascinating. That I was like, man, you are so wounded, so hurt. Um you know, such uh obvious symptoms of your upbringing.

[00:36:19]And it was your parents were too involved. It's wild.

[00:36:24]>> Well, I I the encouragement is Gen Z, one of the things I love about Gen Z is they don't buy into anything. They want to own it. And so I keep pushing leaders, stop talking about buying.

[00:36:36]Nobody wants you to sell an idea that they get on board with. It's like, how do you own it? So my hope is that Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they will own the kind of parenting that they know they needed and not over correct. Gentle parenting has not has not really worked. We know that. Being enmeshed, being overly involved doesn't work. You can't love your kids too much, but you can love them in ways that can hurt. Yeah, that's the iatrogenesis idea that you hear about from Abigail Abigail Shrier. Like you can't you can't over love your kid, but you can love them in ways that is harmful.

[00:37:11]So what has the help what has the ability to heal also has the ability to harm. And so as parents, we have to know that. As as friends, we have to know that. We can enable things that are not for their good. And I think it's just reminding kids, reminding ourselves that the path to joy is not through the least resistance path. And I'm not being the boomer saying, I'm not a boomer by the way, saying just do hard things. It's like, hey, if we don't do hard things with others, we don't get to experience the joy on the other side of it.

[00:37:41]And as Christians, we should be the most joyful people out there and that should be our hook. That's our invitation. You want more joy? Here's the way.

[00:37:49]>> The happiness crisis is going to be one of the book best books you've ever read.

[00:37:52]Happens to be written by my dear friend and neighbor.

[00:37:56]He's not on the podcast because he's my dear friend and neighbor. He's on the podcast because he is the smartest human being that I know right now.

[00:38:03]>> He's also loyal, be so loyal.

[00:38:05]>> Yeah, just just a faithful man of God.

[00:38:08]And you're going to bless be blessed by by Erin's book. John, thanks for coming on.

[00:38:12]>> Hi. Thank you.

[00:38:13]Thanks for having me.

[00:38:14]>> We will hey, share it with every teacher, administrator you know, every person in education, every parent, and every person who wants to find happiness. We'll see next week.

[00:38:24]>> Bye.

[00:38:36]>> Thanks for tuning in to Becoming Something, where we promise to keep the conversation honest and real for young adults in their 20s and 30s.

[00:38:44]Every moment we live is training for a future moment, and that's why we do this podcast, because we want you to be prepared for everything that life is going to throw at you.

[00:38:54]Our hope with this podcast is that it would help you become all that God desires you to be.

[00:38:59]To find out more, visit becomingsomething.com.