The Real REASON Hell Week was Created | Breaking down the origins of BUD/S

[00:00:00]You mentioned that Hell Week was kind of born born and bred out of D-Day. Can you expand on that?

[00:00:05]>> So, the reason that Hell Week exists is directly tied to this impossible mission that planners knew that some unit was going to have to undertake ahead of the the Allied landing in Normandy.

[00:00:23]Um as early as 1940, obstacles are starting to appear on French and Belgium beaches. Um that effort hits overdrive in 1944, early 1944. But, in 1943, there's enough obstacles that planners realize that they've got to put a unit in charge of the underwater demolition of the obstacles on the beaches in Normandy.

[00:00:53]The problem is bombers aren't sophisticated enough to blow gaps in the sea lanes to destroy the obstacles.

[00:01:02]And naval gunfire isn't accurate enough to do it either. Not only that, but when they the Germans start putting mines on top of these obstacles, they fear that bombs are just going to make the problem worse because they're going to hit these obstacles and they're going to spray mines everywhere, complicating the landing even further.

[00:01:21]So, they know that these obstacles with mines attached to them are going to have to be destroyed by hand.

[00:01:27]So, the >> [snorts] >> or the German defenses are getting more sophisticated with every landing.

[00:01:37]Their defense in depth is improving.

[00:01:42]So, they know that you know how do you how do you how do you handle this problem?

[00:01:47]So, Navy has a sort of institutional power grab with the Army to try and take the mission.

[00:01:54]They uh uh, uh, Navy's leaning hard into, uh, taking as much, uh, you know, responsibility away from the Army as possible. So, they put, uh, this mission in the hands of, uh, very young, um, uh, Draper Kaufman. Draper Kaufman is, you know, uh, >> [snorts] >> if you know from the book, he was a Navy reject. He had gone through the academy because of poor eyesight, he was, uh, he he's allowed to graduate, but he's kicked out of the Navy, so he's not allowed to serve.

[00:02:19]Um, uh, he, you know, uh, fighting for his own, you know, relevance, he ends up, uh, joining the French Army as an ambulance driver.

[00:02:27]He's, uh, captured, he becomes a POW, he's released. Instead of, uh, returning home to the United States, he joins the British Navy, uh, becomes a bomb disposal officer, uh, fights through the Blitz. Uh, by the time of the US entry into World War II, he's probably the American, the the American who's seen the most of the war, uh, so far. So, he has as a, uh, a much more sophisticated understanding of what combat is than probably any other American alive.

[00:02:52]Uh, and when he's handed this mission of destroying the obstacles, he knows he's got to create a unit that's capable of doing it. So, he, uh, goes down to Fort Pierce, he starts to, uh, research, you know, the other commando, uh, uh, organizations that are operating down there. He finds the Scouts and Raiders. Uh, he kind of enlists the cadre around himself. Uh, he likes the Scouts and Raiders curriculum. Uh, the Scouts and Raiders curriculum has been developed in part by former NFL jocks.

[00:03:16]Um, it's, you know, very team oriented, um, lots of, uh, you know, log PT, lots of small boat races, things like that. The only problem with that is it's not compressed enough. Um, it's takes too long to create the type of unit. He doesn't have a lot of time before D-Day. So, he has to, um, so, he he's trying to figure out what to do, and he's talking to his cadre. And he, you know, how hard should this training be?

[00:03:39]You know, should it be, uh, you know, twice as hard, should it be three times as hard? One of the other, uh, Navy chiefs who's there, who's experienced combat himself, says, "Knowing what the mission is, it should be 10 times as hard."

[00:03:50]So, Draper Kaufman, he takes the Scouts and Raiders curriculum, compresses it from 8 weeks into 5 and 1/2 days, um and that's how we get Hell Week.

[00:04:01]And then, you know, auto almost immediately planners are skeptical of this. They're like, you know, the first uh couple classes that he puts through, um you know, the attrition rate is very, very high.

[00:04:11]Um planners are like, how how can you how can you justify this? You know, this no nobody else is uh is losing this number of uh volunteers.

[00:04:19]>> [snorts] >> Uh because Draper believes that this mission is so important and he has to create, you know, units that are capable of adapting and thinking on the fly, uh and uh um um enduring uh such, you know, harsh conditions in a maritime environment, he justifies the course by putting himself through it.

[00:04:37]Completes the course himself.

[00:04:39]Um planners give him a stay of execution.

[00:04:42]Uh the guys that complete uh Draper's course go on to um uh land uh on D-Day. Uh in many cases, they land ahead of the their army comrades.

[00:04:55]While the army soldiers uh in those first waves are able to take shelter under the lip of the bluffs uh in the shingle uh out uh um of direct fire the enemy's guns, the NCDUs have to stay out in the um uh in those uh uh in the beaten zone uh where machine gun fire, uh artillery fire has, you know, almost unimpeded access to them.

[00:05:18]Um and they suffer uh 52% casualties.

[00:05:22]So, of the 190 NCDUs that uh um that land on Omaha Beach, 32 are killed. Uh another 65 are wounded. So, it's one of the highest um casualty rates in all of D-Day.

[00:05:35]Um because of that, planners are loath to get rid of uh the course uh and they essentially let Hell Week stand because it it proves, you know, that these guys could and uh accomplish an impossible mission.

[00:05:49]So. That's where we get it.

[00:05:51]>> The fact that that that story is not told to every bud student that eve of of Hell Week starting to me is a [ __ ] travesty.

[00:06:02]>> I think it is now, but you're right. I mean, I I didn't know the story myself.

[00:06:06]I think it's uh and it is a um It's an incredibly important story for us to understand like we you know, we were born with that uh impossible mission. That impossible mission is the uh is what brings this institution together.

[00:06:20]>> Yeah.

[00:06:21]>> And um >> Yeah. That's that's incredible. Like I didn't I had no idea about any of that.

[00:06:28]You know, which is kind of embarrassing, but uh >> No, I mean, but it's the you know, it's the it's the process of figuring out where you come from, you know, and and everybody >> Yeah.

[00:06:38]>> I I made it I might have been the first one to, you know, put it all down, but now that you know, scores of people are reading this book and they're you know, it's [clears throat] uh It's incredibly meaningful. I I think >> [snorts] >> you know, there should be staff rides.

[00:06:51]We should uh we should take, you know, whole platoons um over to Normandy, you know, to to walk those beaches and see the monument and then connect their own service to, you know, this this you know, this day, this most important day. It's the most important day uh in the history of the 20th century.

[00:07:08]You know, it's it's the day that determines whether or not we're going to win the war.

[00:07:12]>> Yeah.

[00:07:13]I guess, you know, hearing you say that and then realizing like, man, I had no idea any of that was the case.

[00:07:18]It it just it reminds me of like the high school kid that has no idea how how America came to be, you know, and it's like, [ __ ] you should know that.

[00:07:26]>> Yeah, but it's not it's not a young person's fault for not being interested.

[00:07:30]It's uh I mean, we're all about the same and um it takes uh it takes a long time before I think anybody um has the uh the maturity and the perspective to start looking over their shoulder.

[00:07:42]>> Yeah.

[00:07:42]>> And realize, you know, I'm not the first person uh to to live on this planet and to experience these things.

[00:07:48]I've just accepted the world for what it is, but uh not really recognize the sacrifices it took to get here.

[00:07:53]Um and they're not wrong to, you know, to think that way. It's uh it's um it's up to, you know, the the folks that have you know, have that perspective.

[00:08:04]>> To beat it into them.

[00:08:06]>> [laughter] >> Uh I love it.

[00:08:08]>> find those the find those moments of meaning and you know, develop uh it takes a lot, you know, it's um I have you know, I've one of the great things about writing this book is has been that uh I've been able to reconnect with uh you know, the institution as a whole and and go out and have, you know, present uh and talk and and things like that and it's amazing how how many guys, you know, you talk to that uh are in, you know, senior positions um in in that uh training apparatus who don't know that history and but uh once they do know it, it becomes so much more meaningful to have that uh to have that context, to have that texture. Um that's uh motivating and um um it's instructive. Now you know why we're getting guys wet and sandy.

[00:08:56]>> Yeah.

[00:08:57]>> You know, like the reason you know, we're putting guy, you know, making guys, you know, get uh sugar cookie'd up in the surf is because, you know, some UDT guys in the Pacific were doing the exact same thing to you know, uh conceal themselves from Japanese sentries.

[00:09:12]Um so yeah, it's miserable.

[00:09:15]But there's a point.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah.

[00:09:17]It's not just to be miserable.

[00:09:18]>> Right.

[00:09:19]>> Uh have you gotten any pushback from the community at all? Anybody that, you know, has given you [ __ ] about doing this or who do you think you are kind of stuff or has it been all positive?

[00:09:29]>> Oh, it's been all positive. I uh the community's been just bent over backwards with uh generosity.

[00:09:35]It's been uh it's changed my life. I mean, I I had no idea. I thought this book would come out, uh a handful of people would read it, uh and then I'd just go back to work and um it's uh yeah, I I I never anticipated that the that there would be a reaction at all, let alone the positive reaction that I've gotten.

[00:09:55]Um yeah, incredibly meaningful. And uh yeah, I am just a just an enormous amount of gratitude.

[00:10:05]And I and and I couldn't have written it without, you know, so many other people, you know, not just people that uh helped me write, you know, physically write it or help, you know, provide, you know, resources to research and things like that, but also people that just gave, you know, encouragement throughout the process. I talked about my friend Mark, you know, who got his eye shot out. He would call me every week just to check on the book.

[00:10:25]Um >> That's awesome.

[00:10:26]>> And a lot of these guys, you know, they had no business doing that. I mean, how many books had come out, you know, before I had started working on this?

[00:10:32]Like, you know, there the saturation of SEAL books on the market was like, you know, there are a lot of people that were irritated by it. I always say, you know, don't be irritated by the number of SEAL books.

[00:10:42]You want to know why SEALs write books?

[00:10:44]Cuz people buy them.

[00:10:46]People are fascinated with this institution, and rightly uh they're right to be fascinated.

[00:10:50]Um there is something about uh you know, the what this institution has given to the country, and it's right for people to, you know, to want to know about it.

[00:11:00]So.

[00:11:00]>> Do you see a shift um like let's say since the mid-2000s of kind of or I guess the late, you know, first decade of the 2000s, you know, where where Lone Survivor kind of really kicked the hornets' nest over for SEAL books past the Vietnam era, you know, the kind of the new era of SEAL books.

[00:11:19]Uh where it's almost kind of gone so far to where like there's there's almost a resentment or oh, [ __ ] SEALs, you know, like almost a negative connotation cuz it it seems that way to me.

[00:11:31]>> Yeah, there is you know some resentment.

[00:11:33]We SEALs have had you know a disproportionate share of uh uh of recognition from you know the last 20 years.

[00:11:41]Um and I can see you know why there would be resentment about that. Um and one of the you know objectives I had in writing the book and writing it the way that I did was to show how all of these institutions are so connected.

[00:11:55]So it's not when I wrote this I wasn't thinking about just writing a history of the SEAL Teams. I wanted to write a biography of the SEAL Teams. And biographies I think are best written when that central character acts as sort of a hub around which all the satellites you know orbit. And the satellites of the SEAL Teams are all of those other institutions that are just as important um and whose gravitational [clears throat] pull helped you know uh chart the the course of the SEAL's development. You know the Rangers and you know all I mean I don't know how I've never really counted but you know how many folks did I you know spend time talking about you know that aren't SEALs. Not even not not SEALs but not even the Navy.

[00:12:37]Um So I think you know there is going to be you know in the next 20 years there's going to be a an over-the-shoulder glance at uh at all of these institutions and it will put the SEALs in the proper perspective and hopefully uh the SEALs will be you know just one of the institutions that uh that helped um you know shoulder this burden. Yeah.

[00:13:04]>> It's >> Um but you know the it's not wrong it's not wrong for publishers to publish SEAL books uh because there's the a demand for them. There's a um I don't exactly know why there's such a demand for this one you know agency but if we have to act as the uh um you know the standard-bearer you know, to draw attention to the rest of special operations and so be it. Somebody's got to.

[00:13:33]>> For the uh the naysayer, you know, especially within the community of the you know, hey, you're you're pimping the trident, you're you know, we're supposed to be silent professionals. None of this stuff should be talked about. What is your response to that?

[00:13:46]>> I think guys are most irritated uh with uh um when there's a lack of humility.

[00:13:54]If you if you uh want to talk about your service, um and you bring you bring humility to it and then you know, recognize that you know, you didn't win the war on your own. Uh a lot of people helped you. Um uh then I think a lot more people would be receptive to, you know, the disproportionate uh you know, number of SEAL books.

[00:14:16]Um it's uh it's when you know, we it's when we thump our our chests.

[00:14:24]Uh that uh that I think people are you know, rightly irritated.

[00:14:28]>> Yeah.

[00:14:28]>> And we have a number of chest thumpers out there.

[00:14:30]>> Yeah, I I mean, I don't disagree. I think there just like with everything, there's a right way and a wrong way to to do things, to promote things, to talk about things, etc. Um but you know, there's there is a portion of the community, I think, that at least verbalizes the despisement of any talk about it whatsoever. Like you you shouldn't even tell people you were a SEAL, let alone >> Yeah, that's ludicrous.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah. I mean, I agree. I just you know, there there is a portion of the community that that seems to feel that way.

[00:15:00]Um which you know, to me it's like >> I was on the Team House podcast not too terribly long ago and um uh one of the uh the host, Jack Murphy, he's a pretty uh um um um outspoken Yeah, outspoken um defund the NSW type.

[00:15:17]Uh super nice guy, you know, face-to-face.

[00:15:21]Um and uh, and complimentary of, you know, [snorts] SEAL Legacy and everything like that and you know, uh, well, well-read reader and um, um, uh, yeah, I I think most people when you actually sit down with them, you know, some of the some of the things they say on Twitter, uh, they're they're um, less likely to say face to face.

[00:15:42]>> Yeah, I mean, >> And much more >> I think that's with everything, you know.

[00:15:45]>> Sure. Yeah, social media has done a number on our our civility.

[00:15:49]>> Yeah.

[00:15:50]Um, I do have a a few Patreon questions. Got a a ton of them actually. We've handpicked a a few of them, but um, John Macre says, if you could sit down with two people, one from past history and one alive today, who would they be and why?

[00:16:05]>> You know, I've had, you know, a number of chances to sit down and talk with people like that. That's the >> So, maybe just not alive.

[00:16:15]>> [laughter] >> Not alive, yeah.

[00:16:18]Um, yeah, it it'd sure be interesting to sit down and talk to, you know, some of the folks who created the world that we are in today. You know, some of the architects of this world and and you know, get their take on where we are and >> Do you mean like going back to Socrates or more >> No, like the you know, the the folks that have created the the architecture that we have, you know, have now like the Churchills and the Eisenhowers and >> Oh, yeah.

[00:16:45]>> You know, it'd be it'd be neat to you know, but you know, stepping back in time, you're going to another place.

[00:16:52]That place no longer exists. I always think like, you know, I miss that time when I was a young frogman in San Diego.

[00:17:00]Miss all the friends that we had there.

[00:17:02]Um, miss the operational tempo that we had all the um, and I've since gone back to San Diego, seen the old house and I've seen reconnected with some some of those friends.

[00:17:12]But that time no longer exists. That that's a um, and uh, you know, going back in time and talking to a a person, you know, as much as I would want to sit down and talk to Lincoln, I'm not sure that I would fully understand the conversation.

[00:17:30]>> Yeah.

[00:17:31]>> But uh yeah, there's those >> Especially the the further back you go.

[00:17:34]>> Yeah, the further back you go, yeah, you're going to be you know, you're going to be talking to an alien.

[00:17:37]>> Yeah.

[00:17:39]It's fascinating.

[00:17:39]>> Yeah, like I mean, the think about it.

[00:17:41]It's not too terribly long ago we had slavery. And some other, you know, you know, imagine, you know, walking around with everything that we know now uh in a world like that.

[00:17:53]It's a foreign place.

[00:17:55]Um Yeah, but you know, I I don't know. Like talking to a Lincoln, talking to a Churchill, talking to uh Yeah.

[00:18:06]I would I certainly wouldn't pass up the chance.

[00:18:08]>> Yeah.

[00:18:09]>> And if there is an afterlife, maybe we get to do that.

[00:18:11]>> Yeah.

[00:18:11]>> [snorts] >> I hope so.

[00:18:14]Uh Ryan Hill uh says, "Who is the baddest, in a good way, SEAL that you've ever heard of in your studies that people resoundingly agree on? Is there one?"

[00:18:23]>> Oh, Bob Gallagher.

[00:18:24]>> Yeah.

[00:18:25]Bobby G.

[00:18:27]Did he get uh fragged in the ass by chance?

[00:18:30]>> He did? I I don't know if it Well, he um blew himself up on uh an EOD problem. He was trying to uh put safety pins back in grenades.

[00:18:39]Blew himself up, blew off uh I think blew off the tip of a finger.

[00:18:43]Um got medevac'd for that. Got out of the, you know, escaped from the hospital and got back with the platoon.

[00:18:49]>> Not really [snorts] just escaped.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah. I I I don't know. Ron Yeaw. I mean, Ron Yeaw had this uh He ended up uh he he ended up augmenting the seventh platoon towards the end. And then um ended up going, you know, serving a whole career and becoming a commanding officer of SEAL Team Six.

[00:19:05]Um had a heel Had his heel blown off in that uh in that last mission I write about.

[00:19:12]Um.

[00:19:14]He had a he had a knack for a trick that he would use to pick up girls in bars where he would walk up to girls, you know, with a full mug of beer and if they didn't talk to him he would bite off chunks of the mug and chew the glass.

[00:19:27]>> [laughter] >> And one of my first interviews with him I was like, "Ron, I got to ask you. One, you know, what's the trick and two, did it work?"

[00:19:35]And he said, "One, there's no trick. You just chew the glass.

[00:19:38]>> [laughter] >> And two, no, it never did."

[00:19:40]>> I I would be scared of the woman that would say, "That's the guy." From from doing that.

[00:19:45]>> Yeah, no, I can see she's going to be the best night of your life. You're going to wake up in a [ __ ] bathtub full of lies. No, he Bob Gallagher is I mean he's by far the uh the most um Somebody somebody gave me the and I I think this made it into the book. Um Ron Matthews or Roy Matthews said uh you know, you might be able to beat up Bob in a fight but you never want to go to sleep after.

[00:20:11]>> [laughter] >> He [snorts] was not, you know, what we would think of today as a as a SEAL. He wasn't or didn't look like a SEAL. He was you know, he had a tendency to put on weight.

[00:20:22]He was bald, you know, mustache. He looked like he looked like a regular Navy Chief.

[00:20:26]>> Yeah.

[00:20:27]>> He [laughter] was just um you know, very you know, quietly relentless and had a lot of demons. You know, he grew up in a really tough environment. Essentially an orphan.

[00:20:40]Um would was very protective of his sister who was his only sibling and he would you know, sneak out of his orphanage when he was, you know, as young as four years old, you know, sneak out of the his side of the Catholic orphanage and cross like a a field in the middle of the night which was like a 100 yards long, sneak across, go to the girls um dorm just so his to sneak up and sleep with his sister because she couldn't sleep without him.

[00:21:05]>> Wow.

[00:21:06]>> So he would um >> Man.

[00:21:08]>> And he um um you know, he had his own family and uh you know, he deployed to Vietnam and he couldn't really ever disconnect from it.

[00:21:18]He had that sort of, you know, Rambo type quality that, you know, we um you know, uh filmmakers love.

[00:21:26]You know, but he really had it. He was uh he was uh he couldn't leave the war.

[00:21:32]>> Yeah.

[00:21:33]Um Man, that's uh fascinating. It It's as fascinating as it is tragic.

[00:21:40]>> Yeah, it was. And he he could never really connect with his own sons. And I think uh the whole family suffered for it.

[00:21:46]>> Yeah.

[00:21:46]>> I had a chance, so once the book was finally finished, the manuscript was done.

[00:21:51]I'd never [clears throat] No, this was Excuse me.

[00:21:54]Um the manuscript wasn't done. I was still working on it. I had never been able I'd talked to all of his family members. I'd talked to all of his platoon mates. I'd never been successful in getting in touch with him.

[00:22:06]Finally, um I talked to his ex-wife and she gave me a a a working phone number that I knew was going to be good. So, I was very I was, you know, ready to [snorts] talk to him. I was I I'd done all the research and I was but I was nervous. I was like So, I called him. And um he answered in a very thin uh high voice that I was not expecting and I said, "Hey Bob, Ben Milligan. I'm working on a history of the SEAL teams. I would love to talk to you. I've talked to the following people. I'm a former SEAL myself. Um and these are the things that I'd like to talk to you about. Would you be interested in talking to me?" And he said, "No, I'm not interested." And he hung up.

[00:22:40]>> Wow.

[00:22:41]>> And I just I set the phone down. I was a little bit stunned, but not at all surprised. And I had to say to myself, you know, if he had given me a different response, I would have been disappointed. Everything that I knew about him was like, of course he wouldn't talk to me.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah.

[00:22:57]Man.

[00:22:58]That's uh I don't know. I keep using the word tragic, but uh man, I yeah, I wish that he would I wish that he would have disappointed you and talked to you, but >> He did. So, he um he never read Well, he I sent him a So, when the book was when the manuscript was done, the galley copies came out and everything like that, I had seven copies to send out and sent six out and um uh one to Pete Peterson and Pete um one of the So, Bob was not doing well.

[00:23:33]Uh everybody didn't think Bob was going to make it much longer.

[00:23:35]And uh >> [clears throat] >> Pete told me after the fact that uh he >> [snorts] >> he read his copy and uh wrote a note and dropped his copy off at uh at Bob's.

[00:23:47]And uh Bob never spoke about it.

[00:23:50]Um but when they were clearing uh Bob's house out after the fact, um and you know, putting stuff away and everything like that, they found a copy of his book.

[00:23:58]And in the book, he had written a note that he wanted it to go to another uh another SEAL that uh was a close friend of his and it said, "You have to read this."

[00:24:06]>> Wow.

[00:24:07]>> That was pretty cool.

[00:24:08]>> Yeah, what a huge honor. That's amazing.

[00:24:12]>> [music] [music]