Sparks Fresh Questions Over Dowry Laws After Twisha Sharma’s Death Case | National Debate

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[00:00:05]Hello and welcome to National Debate.

[00:00:07]I'm Adavdas Kopalarak Krishnan. Viewers, the dowry menace has reared its ugly head once again and the death of Push Shara has once again revived the debate over an issue that for long has been swept under the rug. While it is extremely unfortunate, dowy deaths are not new in India. And every year over 5,000 women lose their lives owing to dowry related harassment. Tisha Sharma's case is just the start. There are several Tishars across the country who are today dealing with such dowry related harassment. But their voices are going unheard. Dowry laws are strong on paper. But are they only strong on paper? Has time come for society to wake up and take a stand against dowry? Is it time to further tighten the laws against those who are both giving and taking dowy? That's what we focus on this edition of the National Debate. Let's first begin with the case of Tusha Sharma because while we discuss her case today, it could very well have been anyone else. Let me introduce our panelists here in the studio. With us is Raika Agraal, lawyer. We have Rishika Dhavan, advocate joining us. Aba Marada Bhatt is a human rights lawyer and social impact leader. We have Pritika Pawa, model and actress with us.

[00:01:17]Ranjandui, former DGP of UP is with us.

[00:01:19]We also have Vikas Gupta, criminal lawyer. Barkatrian is men's rights activist. And also with us is Shi Kapoor who's also a men's right activist. What is this entire case about? Let's begin with the kind of WhatsApp chats that have been unearthed in this entire matter and these are amongst the last texts of Twisha to her family members.

[00:01:36]It's on the 30th of April 2026 that she says he's not speaking to me is bringing the next chart my life has become hell.

[00:01:44]She further goes on to say please come and take me away mom. So she's pleading to her mother to take away. She says I don't think Sam wants me anymore.

[00:01:51]Further saying that Sam is here we'll speak later. Uh more messages say they think I'm into drugs. Further adding that I feel suffocated is another message. This is on the 9th of May. He asked whose child am I carrying? Further that he has crossed all his limits. How can I stay with him is another question being asked. He has said every filthy thing to me is another statement. He lies in front of his mother's yet another text of Tisha. Further going on to say that nothing can be fixed now. So reaching the point perhaps of an irreconcilable difference. He speaks filth. I can't do this. I am afraid the fight might escalate. These are heartless people. Mom, yet another tweet on the 9th of May coming in. And further of course what really has been stated by Giribuala in that audio clip that has now gone viral. Now this is of course as allegedly stated by Giriwala and of course the family of Tisha says that this was recorded in April and she says that only inquired about her being intimate with others before Samur kept calling her and this is an abusive word over there. Some use promiscuity to climb the social ladder. Samur said that she was engaged in multiple affairs.

[00:03:06]Promiscuous behavior postmarriage wouldn't be tolerated. Promiscuity can become a habit. Another shocking comment coming in from Giri Bala Singh. Let's quickly open this across and take it across to our guests as well and let me begin with you Raagaral you know primary facy going by these messages before us going by the kind of statements before us you have a situation where the two accused both are lawyers in fact one is a judge the other is of course a lawyer he's absconding at this point Sam but at least going by these WhatsApp messages what does one make of this because people will say what were the family members doing when such cries for help such SOS were being put out it was also incumbent on them to come and rescue the rather than letting things come to this eventuality.

[00:03:47]>> I think that uh primide all these messages show very clearly that she was in a very harassed and depressed state of mind. There was a continuous uh state of emotional torture which she was going through maybe even physical though these messages are not making out about any physical beatings etc. But definitely uh she was feeling absolutely harassed and intimidated over there and the fact that she was crying for help from her mother.

[00:04:14]Of course that is another matter that her parents probably did not take it seriously and did not react at that time as in our Indian marriages all mothers teach their daughters to nibhow adjustment compromise.

[00:04:27]Once a child is born it takes time etc. These are all teething problems. These are the things which often mothers say to their daughters and if they say in another manner then the mothers are accused of breaking up their daughter's houses that oh you're interfering too much in your daughter's house. So a balance has to be drawn and from these messages but definitely primmaasai there is no doubt that she was going through a lot of emotional and mental torture >> and the kind of messages especially about her character you know that she was having multiple affairs before marriage they do show that Samar and his mother were trying to bring her down absolutely bring her to the bottom level where she feels that she's just the pits you know I mean whatever affairs she may have had in the past that's that's her personal life and that's all gone and over with. But despite that, you know, they met on a dating app as I've been reading in the social media. So obviously if Samar is a grownup person and he's an he's an adult and he's a lawyer and he's a responsible person in the society. So how could if he's decided to marry her, he cannot bring those things again and defame her in this manner.

[00:05:28]>> Absolutely. And that too when she is pregnant Shi Kapoor, you know, to be making these statements when a person is pregnant, you know, asking whose child this is, going on talking about past affairs, etc. How much of this is really appropriate? as she says were they trying to break her down because one thing is to physically torture a person but if you're going to go on making these kind of barbs that's tantamount to mental torture isn't it?

[00:05:48]>> Yes. Uh if you see to it it does tent amount to mental torture but the line which you started was dowy harassment and nowhere in these talks anything about dowry comes out. So every suicide is not dowy death.

[00:06:03]>> I have a counter to that. I have a counter to that. Why is the family now saying that we transferred 7 lakh rupees back to Tusha Zak on the very day that she died? Isn't that a smoke screen then? And is that attempt to counter these dowy debt charges?

[00:06:14]>> It could be anything. They're all lawyers by the way.

[00:06:16]>> It could be anything but whatever the lady has said does not speak anything about dowry. Yes, it could be a case of 498 because driving a woman towards suicide. Yes, it can be leveled because 498 is as much about dowry as much as driving a woman towards suicide. But nothing in this nothing whatever you have quoted here till now brings any angle of dowry here.

[00:06:40]>> But you know that dowy was paid or not paid in this case for a fact.

[00:06:43]>> So if if it it doesn't matter whether the dowy was paid or not >> because of harassment. No no please understand no harassment was mated out for dy. So there is a two different distinct things. Doy exchange is not a crime but any harassment done for demand of dowry is a crime.

[00:07:02]>> Dowy exchange is also a crime sir. The giver of dy the giver of dy is also equally liable as per >> then then 99% 99.99% of the mar that's why we need to change as society we're not implementing the law >> the wife and their >> just because we're not implementing the law by and large does not mean that society by and large is correct. But let me bring in other lawyers as well.

[00:07:21]Rishika Dewan I would like you to respond to this point. He says that there's nothing in this that proves that there is dowi and that the harassment was not happening because of dowi. Are the dowy laws there meant for the dowi giver and taker as well.

[00:07:33]>> So there are precedents that covers both the one who is giving the dowi as well as one who is taking the dowy. That said the the laws itself is very clear. It says that there is a presumption of death due to dowry within 7 years of marriage if a person dies. So this marriage happened in December. The death happened now.

[00:07:55]>> So and then there are conversations around the father-in-law of the brother of Tusha transferring two lakhs. The marriage was to begin at 1:00 p.m. It was deferred to 3 p.m. because money was required and money wasn't given and the transfer transaction is there where two lakhs was transferred to the mother which is the mother of the the groom. So this transaction is already there and are we actually saying that the money was not transacted and the death did not happen. The death happened because of money and other cruelties. There is a recording on social media where the brother goes up to the mother-in-law uh where this conversation happened regarding the the prostitution discussion the the the boyfriends and everything where while we are discussing that and then we are talking about money. These are two independent things but both are clearly there on social media and otherwise it also is captured in the FIR.

[00:08:53]>> So although FIR happened three days later the the transaction is already there. And going back to your question Madav um dowi one who's who gives and one who takes that is something that happens and it doesn't come into media it doesn't come into police stations but is this something that is not happening?

[00:09:12]It is happening.

[00:09:13]>> Of course it is. Yes.

[00:09:14]>> Yes. No but that's that's a question but short that to answer your question she says there is enough proof of money transaction so where's the question I've seen that I have not seen that whatever you brought to notice my notice and I am only replying to that there could be some circumstances there could be anything which is not brought to light and I cannot respond to anything which I don't know you showed me these clips you showed me these starting with the harassment aspect >> so so please understand if this is a harassment uh so I'm saying it makes out 498 definitely it makes out 498 >> there's much more there is much more there is much more food for thought and evidence coming don't go just by this it's a one hour long discussion there's a lot more to discuss I'll respond to that there's a a lot more to discuss but let me quickly in fact bring in on this note Batrian as well bkatrian you know what kind of a no please let's let's let's not do blackards no ma'am let's not do this black cards down no not in a studio this is not no this is not a protest this is not a protest sensitive madam please put that down put that down please put it down put IT DOWN NO FLAGS WHY DON'T WE >> NO FLAGARDS madam this is not janta concept this is my studio please put it down you will not be allowed to carry plards and if so humble request please don't do this please don't do this cut down no please don't do this this is not correct case >> you know my simple question is why is he >> no why no question >> I am asking you a simple question where is today mental trauma where is sar today where is sama today if he's innocent why isn't he subitting himself >> find out not me police >> please answer the question >> h let the police find it find out I am not responsible >> don't you think he should be submitting himself due to due legal process in this >> matter it's his will he wants to submit or the what is the police doing?

[00:10:44]>> It's his will.

[00:10:45]>> Yes, it's >> it's his will. As a lawyer, he's an officer of court. It's his will.

[00:10:48]>> Yes. Yes. He will courses.

[00:10:50]>> He will fight for his courses.

[00:10:53]>> And when did we say when did we say here we are no judges here.

[00:10:58]>> We are no judges here. So when did let let everything be proved in the court.

[00:11:03]The court doesn't work on emotions. See when I spoke about Amar Sharma, you got so rattled.

[00:11:09]>> No, I'm not Am Sharma. I don't want you to hold any chares. Even if you hold a plard for the for I would not allow it here. This is not a place for >> I put the plaque card down. See see this is not a plard NCB data. This is NCB government data which says three times husband suicide. And if you counters also >> what does it say about dowy deaths? How many deaths?

[00:11:33]>> The dowy deaths it I have not taken out about why why not we are discussing dowy deaths and you're only concerned about burning. THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

[00:11:40]>> HUSBAND BURNING. Do you talk just 2 days before?

[00:11:43]>> How many cases husband?

[00:11:44]>> How many cases husbands?

[00:11:46]>> We don't have data for husbands.

[00:11:48]>> WE DON'T COLLECT DATA FOR HUSBANDS. Men are third class gender. WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THEM. Let them die. We only go. I think it's about 20 women who die a day. There is 16 women 16 women.

[00:12:03]16 women die in a day. 16 women die in a day. I can only discuss what data the government provides. You're more than welcome to collect this data. Ma'am, you've been working in this area. I'm sure you will be also in the process of petitioning the government to collect that data. Aba would like to respond to those charges because a he is taking legal records. He also happens to be a lawyer. He should be the one setting the example. His mother happens to be a judge and she said we are not judges here. But we seeing the example of the one judge before us and the kind of statements coming.

[00:12:30]>> We may not be judges but we are all lawyers over here. So we do understand the process here. So one thing that I think I really need to point out over here is that the mother has been planting narratives. Yes.

[00:12:40]>> Whether there is foul play or not, we'll see at some point. One moment. MADAM, you got your chance. No, no, let's not do this. Let everybody No, no, this is not a shouting.

[00:12:50]>> You have to allow us to speak >> one by one. One by one, please. One by one. One by one. She is making her opening commenting. So, everyone, I'm not talking about summer at the moment.

[00:13:00]Let her make a point. You can respond to her. Let >> my point over here is very simple that here is a situation that has arisen where a woman has died by suicide. There are dowy angles. There is a foul play angle, there is harassment angle, there is what we watch this psyched the wit out of all of us. I think the way the mother has spoken about this girl and in whichever manner so what we see over here as lawyers if I'm seeing it as a lawyer the lady has been the son is not there he's not available to the police or any of us to see where he is we still asking the question whether he will surrender and or not but what she's saying is a planted narrative to prove two things proving that one is this girl was mentally unstable >> therefore she can commit suicide so I am not responsible for the suicide neither is my son second part that she's saying is that about the character part. So now she comes to the character where she's now talking about the previous boyfriend. Sexual intimacy. Is she married to the girl or the boys married to the girl? It is between the husband and wife or you are the husband or you are speaking for the son. Unreal and absolutely obnoxiously I would say ugly what we all watched about what was being said over here. So when we plant narratives like this, the police is listening. The son is sitting and watching TV somewhere. He's listening.

[00:14:11]When he surrenders, there's going to be a statement. M >> what statement has to go in is what the mother I believe has planted as a lawyer I see that over there >> so she's giving him cues as to what >> it's open cues >> okay is that what's happening Vikas Gupta because at the end of the day what kind of well please let other panelists come in Vikas Gupta what is the kind of you know narrative that is being set over here that somebody who does not do puja somebody who does not water the plants somebody who has had a medical termination of pregnancy all this show that a person is of unstable mind unsigned mind and therefore has committed suicide what is the narrative that the the judges is trying to set over here.

[00:14:43]>> Madav as a lawyer let me just begin.

[00:14:46]There are three scenarios that emerge from the entire discussion what has taken place. One is a dowy death. The other is a wet to suicide and third is cruelty. So as far as all the tweets these messages you read out dowy death madav for a as far as law is concerned the demand of dowi has to be soon before the death takes place you know. So there is no ingredients of the offense as far as any of the messages which you have read out sent by the girl and from the relatives. So as far as dowry death is concerned I I don't think >> one part kupta we are talking about the cruelty this mother >> I'm only talking about one second I'm only talking about WhatsApp messages that are recorded between her and her family members. I'm only talking about Girala. Lots more will come up in this debate that will give you as you know my my my sympathy for the family goes out but that's a separate thing. But as far as law is concerned you're saying the boy is on the run. He is ought to be he applied for anticipatory before bail before the session court. He has the opportunity to go before the high court and supreme court. So it is not abscounding. He's only availing his legal remedy which is available to every citizen of this country. So let us not go after someone you know. I really don't none of us know what is there at the point but most interestingly let me tell you I read the bail anticipatory bail application before coming to the >> do you think that Tusha would have been lying about you think Tusha's messages over here are fake which he has that only points to cruelty what you're trying to make a offense which is punishable to run to be on the run no let me tell you one thing if these what all these messages that points out only towards cruelty it doesn't lead to point out towards We just started with that. He just spoke about the two lakh rupee transaction madhav that if that amount please if that amount has taken place in two that's what I'm saying that demand has to be soon before the debt takes place not in December you talking of a offense which has happened in on 12th of May and you're talking about transaction that took place before the sequence of events mad you can't expect me as a criminal lawyer to go on an emotional point I'm only going to talk I'm only going to talk WAS SEVEN LAKHS THE AMOUNT was seven lakhs AND PAID TWO LAKHS. THE REMAINING let the amount that was that amount that was asked for they said that the the arrangement was not as good as that that that match their stature the amount could have been seven lakhs but because at the last minute they could only arrange for two lakhs that two from the brother's father-in-law they paid two lakhs the remaining five lakhs was still pending now that correlation do we say that immediately before the death it should be the demand that should be there then why do we have the provision Even as a lawyer, why do we have the provision of 7 years production? Why is the sevenyear provision there? Answer, you're a lawyer as well.

[00:17:35]>> Yeah, that's that seven year is there, but that demand has to be soon before the death.

[00:17:40]>> SIR, EXPLAIN. ONE SECOND. ONE SECOND.

[00:17:43]And one second. One second. One second.

[00:17:45]One second. Why was 7 lakh rupees paid on the same day of Tusha's death to her her account by in fact the family of the accused in this case? Please trying to that's bad. that is flowing comes back. OKAY. THE ALIBI IS not proof but the actions don't show proof.

[00:18:01]>> Shows the truth.

[00:18:02]>> Madav that's precisely what I'm saying death has taken place. The messages sent by this young girl points towards cruelty but it doesn't point towards a vetment to suicide or a dowy death.

[00:18:14]That's precisely what is that because once you pick up the law books you will read the section you read the ingredient only then you will read to >> how do you know these acts of cruelty were not because of dowi. How do you know that for a fact?

[00:18:26]>> No, no, how do you know that for a fact?

[00:18:28]>> You're missing the point. I'm talking dowry death. That is punishment for more than 10 years.

[00:18:33]>> How are How are you telling us or arguing as a lawyer that these acts of cruelty which you yourself have admitted are not due to dowry? How do you >> It could be for DOWRY BUT NOT FOR YES, THAT IS THE whole point we are making.

[00:18:45]COULD BE BECAUSE OF DOWRY. WHY are you arguing against it then?

[00:18:48]>> That that that has to be soon before the death. It has TO BE IN CLOSE PROXIMITY.

[00:18:54]NOT TODAY. that you make a demand 3 weeks before the death and then the death >> if it is 3 weeks if it's 3 months before the death then it's not dowy if it is 2 days before only then it is >> yes that's yes you're right that's WHAT THE LAW IS >> WE SHOULD ASK WHAT DO WE UNDERSTAND WHY there are there are three lawyers who want to ask >> I just clarify with utmost respect to Mr. Gupta the the the the demand may not be immediately proximate to the to the day of the death but if it is a continuous uh demand which is happening the continuous cruelty which the do with the the daughter-in-law is suffering because of the continuous demands so it is something that is just piling up one after the other and ultimately it may lead to her death. So though it may it may not be just one day before her death or 2 days before death the demand may not be immediately proximate but even if it is prior and if it has been a continuous >> sequence of events if it's a sequence of events and is building up what is I want to come in here >> I want to come >> yeah one for the first >> yeah that's what I'm saying if the marriage took place in December and the demand was raised in December I don't know what is a continuous demand and there's been no none of the none of these messages none of these messages mother points that there is that demand >> there's a LAW NO YOU'RE YOU'RE a lawyer can't say you're a lawyer you're saying you don't go by emotion I'll grant you that go by the law does the law say within 7 years the case is applicable or not >> yes of course it is >> then what is the argument >> no but the demand that demand what all mess WhatsApp what you're reading out doesn't say any one because if you all sh at the same time nobody can hear any of you. So one by one so if the demands continuously build up over a period of time they can lead to harassment say so >> but THERE IS HARASSMENT THAT'S NOW YOU'RE MAKING TWO OTHER YOU YOU LOSE ALL THE YOU JUMP TO other difficulty is the police you get defeated on the demand you go to harassment of course because I'm saying harassment is there but the harassment punishment is not is not 10 years.

[00:21:06]>> Let's let's go one by one. Yeah.

[00:21:08]>> Thank you so much. M sir, with all due respect to you and all the panelists and I just want to bring in one factor I think and the first the lady kind of mentioned it. You see the fact that money was asked for is there >> maybe four months away and let's not forget you know they're all educated people. The the mother-in-law is a is a is a judge the husband is a lawyer. They know the law fully well.

[00:21:33]>> Exactly. And in that and just madam please open and therefore you know they'll obviously be very careful >> that you do not state anything which can ultimately be construed to being asked for dowry.

[00:21:48]>> Yes.

[00:21:48]>> A now once you know this this undertone of dowry is there nobody mentions it because it's very inelegant. It's also legal. So they nobody will mention it but all this harassment could be coming because of this underlying tone of money have not been given >> and so you see the mother-in-law obviously or the husband won't say that you know we know we need money >> and these insinuations that you know all of us lawyers are here >> lawyers have seen a lot more I mean as a police officer I've seen a little bit >> but the usual insinuation >> yes >> is that is on character >> yes >> they said you know there fault in the lady's character. The reason for making that insinuation is because they're dissatisfied with the kind of transaction that was made or the the in-laws not being looked after the husband you know the father I'm actually reading out before I come across to you just one second since this issue has been debated so viferously from this side but they answer this I'm reading out from the family's petition they say they taunted her deprived her deprived her of money for daily expenses pressurized her to hand over the amount given to her by the applicant as also the amount accumulated by her from a previous job abused used her and made her life miserable. If this is not harassment for money, what is?

[00:23:02]>> She's a gold digger.

[00:23:03]>> Oh, she is a gold digger.

[00:23:05]>> Not the family responsible family. NOT THE FAMILY WAS HARASSING HER.

[00:23:09]>> LET ME COMPLETE. She is responsible for her death. SHE WAS A DRUG.

[00:23:13]>> THAT'S A VERY INSENSITIVE.

[00:23:18]You cannot speak like this. HOW DO YOU >> I will another no. Don't quote ANOTHER CASE. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. You can't be No, YOU WILL NOT. YOU CANNOT DEFAME A DEAD PERSON LIKE THIS. HOW ARE you saying that she's a gold digger? With what basis are you saying?

[00:23:30]>> She the whole family she kept on sending messages to the whole family. Take me back.

[00:23:36]>> So that means she's A GOLD DIGGER.

[00:23:38]>> SHE WAS THERE WAS BEING HARASSED.

[00:23:39]>> SHE SHE WAS THERE.

[00:23:40]>> NO, NO, NO. How dare you say she's a gold digger without any proof. Ma'am, THIS IS COMPLETELY INCORRECT.

[00:23:44]>> NO, NO, NO. LET ME COMPLETE THAT.

[00:23:46]>> WHAT IS THE PROOF? WHAT IS THE PROOF?

[00:23:47]GIVE us proof.

[00:23:53]>> DISCUSSION.

[00:23:56]Baka has apologize for that comment. You're defaming a dead person without any proof. What is your proof? She's a gold digger. What do you mean? You're calling her You're calling HER A GOLD DIGGER.

[00:24:08]GOLD dig mother. I am not discussing. I'm asking YOU TO GIVE PROOF.

[00:24:16]You're grandstanding. GIVE ME THE PROOF.

[00:24:17]>> THE WHOLE FAMILY IS SO GREEDY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? THEY ARE AFTER MONEY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? WHY DID YOU GET MARRIED?

[00:24:26]What money? She's a bolder. SHE'S LOST HER LIFE AFTER you get your DAUGHTER MARRIED TO a very >> No, this is not THE WAY. YOU CANNOT DEFAME SOMEBODY LIKE THIS. I'm sorry. I cannot allow this. You should BE APOLOGIZING FOR MAKING SUCH LET ME COMMENT. I'm going to come to you AS WELL. THIS IS THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM what the mother-in-law has said.

[00:24:47]>> Absolutely.

[00:24:48]>> So what are we listening to?

[00:24:49]>> ABSOLUTELY. I HAVE SEEN SUCH CASES AND THAT IS WHY I SAID THIS.

[00:24:53]>> MANY OF SUCH CASES.

[00:24:54]>> You cannot apply every such CASE LIKE THIS. GIRLS ARE NO NO YOU ARE ALSO SOME BASIC sensitivity what you're saying. This is NOT ACCEPTABLE. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE at all. You cannot make blanket statements. They will call something else to the judge AND THE BOYS FAMILY THEN YOU WILL ALSO have a problem. THIS IS EXTREMELY INSENSITIVE OF you because a person has died. A person has COMMITTED SUICIDE AND YOU'RE CALLING that person A GOLD DIGGER >> SO THAT THE TRUTH COMES. SHAME ON YOU.

[00:25:24]You cannot possibible.

[00:25:30]SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR HER. WHY DID SHE COME BACK WITHOUT ANY PROOF? HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?

[00:25:34]>> EVERYTHING WAS FINE. THAT IS WHY SHE CAME BACK. HOW IS IT COME BACK? SHE WENT TO THE PHARMACY HAD A MEDICAL PROBLEM SAYING EVERYTHING IS FINE AND there are okay enough we've had enough of a monologue which is not making any sense extremely >> INSENSITIVE 5 months into the wedding like just 5 months it's not even been half a year and what are the comments like this is the proof right the aggression just piles up calling names persuading somebody so that they give you money like they are lawyers, they are judges, obviously educated backgrounds, they can't directly say that word but those transactions are a proof and those money transfers to the accounts of the in-laws that are also the proof and what says that you know I'm sorry but using those words like gold digger saying the family was money enough let her finish let every parent this is not right this is not right every family. This is not right. Let me make a point.

[00:26:39]>> Every family wants a educated wealthy family, a good future for their daughters. And just for having that concern, you can call a family money hungry. Sorry, but you know you know COMMENTS THAT THE MOTHERSOME GUY with a good girl let other people speak. No, you cannot jump in like this. This is not how we conducted the media and you made your point and does not have any name calling happening that the girl went into the industry. She climbed ladders for money shows how money-minded the mother-in-law is. All she thinks that everything that a girl does is to just get money in her life. I mean just throwing statements like she would sleep with people.

[00:27:21]>> Okay, quick quick response. I need to speak. I need to speak here because what Burka is talking about and this is very unfair un unreasonable for her to bring this up. This girl was not chasing this boy, handsome boy. She was married to that boy and for 5 months into the marriage they are talking like that about her because they had already decided they don't want her anymore and therefore the harassment begins whether it was for dowry or otherwise the investigation will be there. We have seen some bits over here but the investigation will go on. Now we are looking at something which will land up in a burst up investigation whether at the police or at the medical investigation where I think lawyers will play a big role.

[00:27:56]>> I'm actually looking at the issues related to the investigation and we'll discuss this threadbear what really has happened in this investigated investigation. What are the botchabs?

[00:28:04]What doesn't add up? Let's take a look at it. The hanging belt was not submitted in time. The first few days the belt was missing. Why was it missing? Even the FIR the family says took time. local police not informed immediately is a question that is being asked because why was the FI registered 3 days after the death was there some influence use perhaps we don't know but certainly a valid question why were calls made to judges after the death the CDR submitted in the court actually shows that calls were made to several influential people including judges why that's a question for many to answer why were these calls made to the CCTV handlers as well and they've committed on record they have commented that they did receive those calls why were those calls made remember it's not just one but multiple CCTVs that are there as far as this judge's residence is concerned.

[00:28:49]Why is the husband Samar Singh still on the run? Giribala on defamation drive still out on bail if there is a case of you know such dowy harassment and in fact I'd like to ask Mr. Rajandi isn't it a fact that this individual Giribala should also be behind bars and let me contrast that and let me why I'm asking you this is look at the case of Deepipika Nagar and Greater Nida >> entire family arrested why are these people still outside what is the police there are they scared because she's a judge >> no no you see there are always you know two sides to to any case and it's a matter of investigation and it does happen many times that out of public pressure media pressure and so on sometimes police overst steps and affects an arrest even before time. You know ordinarily you should you should arrest at a particular point in time when you have enough evidence before you. So so that's that that's a matter of investigation as to what time she should be arrested but >> what do the dowy laws say? What do the dowy laws say?

[00:29:49]>> So she should be available for investigation and questioning all the time.

[00:29:52]>> She's not been available for 10 days.

[00:29:53]>> Is that what you're saying? She's not been available for investigation for 10 days.

[00:29:56]>> Notice has not gone in for investigation. So and if she doesn't go she safina serve she doesn't go ultimately arrest warrant can be given to to bring a for for interrogation. So you know that the law will follow its own course but you know but this tendency to affect arrest on the basis of accusations.

[00:30:11]>> Let me bring in a comment on that would like to respond to that law will take its own course in the case of some privileged individuals in our society.

[00:30:18]Law's course becomes so meandering we don't know if it's even taking any course as go back to the to the whole investigation.

[00:30:25]So the bail is on the ground of age and stature. So this is the ground of allowing the bail. Gymnast rope is the the device by which the death has happened. That rope they can't find for 3 days. Then the calls 50 calls. 50 calls to the judges. Is there a count?

[00:30:44]Would any normal person be able to do that? If the police is called, the police should have been called immediately. The family of the girl called the police. They never called the police. The the police station is hardly 30 seconds away from the residence. Then the CCTV handling thing. There is a botchup in the timelines.

[00:31:05]>> The CCTV footage that is available versus the timeline. And this is within a span of 15 minutes. Rest the entire video of the day is fine. Only this 15 minutes is is something that is not matching the normal course of action that has been portrayed by the mother-in-law. Now in all of this what seems right does everything seems right here and if that is the case would a normal person say in the Pika's case would the police be working in the manner FIR happening after 3 days without the evidence.

[00:31:39]So when we talk about the evidence and the manner in which the investigation is happening, this is completely something that has been managed and this is not Delhi or this is not Mumbai. This is a small city like Bhopal where the mother-in-law was already a district judge and now a sitting judge in consumer form >> consumer form already a sitting judge has been a district judge and therefore every possibility that she could have manipulated the case the investigation bops are there for all to see. Your response.

[00:32:05]>> I'll say if she was a district judge, her friends would have been a judges only. So whom do you call when you are in stress? Whom do you call?

[00:32:13]>> 50 calls.

[00:32:14]>> Wait, wait a minute. Let me respond.

[00:32:17]>> It it could be five calls. It could be 50 calls. There could be WhatsApp calls which are not recorded. So how do we know? But tell me whom do we call when we are in stress? To our friends. And if her friends are judges, she'll definitely call judges. It is her prerogative. But you don't call the police.

[00:32:35]>> How do you know?

[00:32:36]>> You don't call the police. You don't call the police. You don't call. Okay.

[00:32:39]Why is F not registered for 3 days?

[00:32:40]>> So, so FIR is not registered. That is for the police to explain. That is not for the accused to explain.

[00:32:45]>> So, her friends So, so, so the friends who she might have called on the basis of distress because they are the only friends she has as you as you believe.

[00:32:52]>> Yes.

[00:32:53]>> Those friends could not have had a role in that.

[00:32:55]>> So, if they had a role, why not they are investigated?

[00:32:58]>> They should be investigated. So, all those who have been called should be investigated. CDRs are out. So obviously they will be investigated including please please please let me ask you who produced that CDR they themselves produced the accused produced that CDR in the court right? M so if they were so guilty why were they producing the CDR and why the defense had why the prosecution had producing the CDR or the other side no you made a comment let's get the fact >> the other side and the accused is on the run that's precisely what we are discussing they withdrawal was not on the runa was not on the run please show a minute let me complete see what we are saying is that of course there is The presumption that it was a dory death if it happens within 7 years but there cannot be based on all the facts there can be a presumption of presumption you know there is a presumption there is only one presumption we cannot presume that all these harassment happened because of doy because there's nothing in it and if anything nothing she's referred to transaction whatever whatever you shown how you are consuming presuming material so so one by But the prosecution had all the right to oppose the bail. The prosecution has the right to if the bail has been granted go for cancellation of the bail. They can go to high court.

[00:34:19]They can go to supreme courts. So all the courts are open and the accused Sam if he's on the run he's taking his recourse in the court whether he's seeking anticipatory bail and he has the right to go underground till he may have been right but it doesn't look very good. Why he's evading the law? The kind of messages over here certainly don't paint him in a very good light.

[00:34:39]Absolutely not. You know, any person whose wife has just died in a manner in this in a absolutely unnatural manner, he would be the first one to come forward and help the police if his conscience is clear. No doubt that as a human being, he's scared. No doubt as a lawyer, you're right in saying that he's a he's got a right to protect himself and apply for anticipatory bail. But he's just lost his wife. Here is his mother who's making scandalous defamatory statements against his wife.

[00:35:04]And this man doesn't have the guts to stand up for his wife. He doesn't have the spine to speak about his wife because as the others panelist just said it is Gibbala who's putting words in his mouth. She's building up a narrative. So that this is the narrative being built up against Twisha that he was a bad girl you know who was absolutely you know probably hyper sensitive you know she was somebody just said she's a gold digger and somebody's trying to the the mother-in-law is trying to make her out to be a drug addict. So ultimately it is not just these phone calls which are going to put the uh you know lead the culprits to the gallows and they need to go to the gallows if they are guilty if they are guilty but yes only the messages the WhatsApp messages which you just showed in the beginning of the program they alone may not be sufficient to build up a case of dowry there initial statements of the family members the family members of Trisha who are going to probably now speak up and say that how the daughter was being harassed how the dowi demands were being made and the dowy demands need not be very blunt they can be very very they can be done in a very subtle manner you know about lifestyle demands about property demands how you know you have to live up according to the jonas so all those things you know when you make demands in a subtle manner the girl is not dumb she's probably going to convey to her mother that look mom I want to ask you this calls are made to senior bureaucrats calls are made to judicial officers including a additional secretary level officer a dire director general rank IPS officer two additional district judges a loca official and a district judge shikapoor says of course she's a judge her friends would be judges are all these only the friends that she would have or is this her using her influence or misusing her influence there's a very very simple and a very basic question I want to raise you know you know she's a judge her husband is a lawyer they know the law fully well >> son is a lawyer >> yeah son is a lawyer >> sorry yeah sorry I'm sorry son is They know fully well that if it's an unnatural death, >> yes, >> the first thing they have to do is to inform the police.

[00:37:08]>> And that's a very major omission. You know, >> that's a very major omission and needs a lot of presumptions. And you're right.

[00:37:14]You see, you you're right. I mean, should be having friends.

[00:37:16]>> And if you don't have friends, you try to call influential people to help you in times of stress maybe, which is natural perhaps. But the point is that has she fulfilled her duty which she knows fully well that she was supposed to do >> and not doing that and trying to seek recourse to people who have influence influence in society >> obviously would lead to that you want to influence the nature of investigation and inquiry and protect yourself to the extent you can not get arrested stay on bail and so on so you know that so this this is a this and you know I'm extremely sorry to say >> that a judge making such a mistake of not informing the police in the case of natural death not to take us answer that answer that end of the day you know what he's saying is there okay bad enough she's using her influence which exactly is not acceptable I think jenzi today our public who's watching are outraged was here as a judge misusing influence even in such a sensitive matter but did she do what she's supposed to do as for the law is to approach the police she's not done so is what he's also >> as far as informing the police late or maybe after a day or I don't know exu how long it took them 3 days or two no 3 days was for the registration of the F whether it took probably what was informed that it took them almost 2 hours to inform the police once they reach the hospital only then police was called in. So they'll have to explain that inordinate delay of 2 hours that that because that presumption because the death has taken place in their house. So there's a presumption that those events are in their knowledge. So they will have to >> why that presumption won't be used by the other side. Why would the presumption only be used by this side?

[00:38:50]Whose >> honor is whose ownus is it? She's a judge and she I was on a different this thing. I'm saying that presumption that how the death took place and they will have to explain also 2 hours. Okay. Given that we are missing this point you see and there's an additional responsibility you see as a as a lawyer as a judge you understand that protection of evidence even to prove your own innocence is important. M >> you see both ways >> what steps were taken I mean all that you have said and we have heard >> shows that no step was taken to protect the evidence >> and every effort was made to disturb the evidence over there to prevent a fair investigation. know which all you see it does what what whether she's guilty or not ultimately you know it's the it's the the the court to prove that whether dowi is made out or not it's ultimately the court to prove that but no we're just looking at circumstances >> second the crime scene has not been initiated by then CCTV guys are being called top cops are being called how do you know that the crime scene if there is a crime we don't know whether it's suicide whether it's a natural death mad let's not get into this no that's a matter of investigation investigation no and that's a matter of investigation whether Because I'm I'm asking you about the case of Deepika Nagar. I just raised the question of Deepika Nagar. That entire family was arrested. Every middle class person in this country, their entire family arrested. Why is she not being arrested?

[00:40:16]>> Arrested the police. Not even the judges can direct that go and arrest someone.

[00:40:24]>> But yes, if it's a judge, police will be scared that why should we arrest the judge? IS THAT NOT THE CASE? ABSOLUTELY.

[00:40:30]ABSOLUTELY.

[00:40:32]Let's go. Let's go. Let's get my response. I'll ask you a question. LET HER RESPOND. YES.

[00:40:37]>> Any debate on this >> mad? Let's see what's come before us in the manner in which this entire scenario has panned out before us and why she has not been arrested or then they have applied for anticipator anticipatory bill. They know what is coming next. So the problem over here is that the insistence of the lady that is a suicide and to then the police to in the postmortm say it's a suicide and then we are the liature is not there and the investigation is totally sort of I think it's gone wrong and evidence has been destroyed is clearly visible over here.

[00:41:06]So we are glad that the second postmotum is coming in. Now >> the point is over here that when a person insists there is suicide I have a very strong feeling that there's a concealed offense sitting over here. a crime that has been committed that has been covered up over here and the cover up is being done by our dear judge over here. So now h having a judge in that place who's literally literally sort of navigating the entire thing for the rest of the people.

[00:41:30]>> All right, let's take a look at I would like to add over here. Let us not forget the medical reports are we let us not forget the patriarchal mindset that the police has. bring in patriarchal mindset that here here is a woman here is a girl who has been know I mean made out as a gold digger by one panelist and the mother-in-law makes her out to be a promise lady and also into so obviously the the entire investigation is being swayed in a in a particular manner that she was a bad girl >> okay okay let's quickly let's quickly now come into some of the other aspects of this why is this so important as in terms of a national discussion India's dowy law the question is whether it's strong only on paper because while the purpose is to criminalize dowy death this is section 80 of the BNS the sentence here is 7 years extendable to life imprisonment let's quickly bring in the next aspect of this in the section 80 itself the purpose is punishing cruelty by husband or relatives the sentence of course up to 3 years in jail with fine and let's bring in the next aspect of this law the purpose of course of section three of the dowi prohibition act in terms of penalty for giving dowi as well because even giving dowi is a crime the sentence is a minimum 5-year jail term and fine of not less than 15,000 rupees. Dowy givers are shielded from prosecution if they are the agreved party is what the Supreme Court has said in past judgments as well. Uh so this of course at the end of the day is the nub of the entire issue because when it comes to the law itself this is pretty much the law that we had before the BNS as well and like to bring in Pritika on this. Pritika is there enough deterrence in the law itself? Does the law need to be stronger than it currently is?

[00:43:09]>> Absolutely. Because a lot of people say, "Okay, it's probably gifts. It's gifts."

[00:43:13]But they are not really gifts. They are demands. And the girls that go through this mental pressure, they can't even tell their parents sometimes thinking that they'll think that okay parents influence or it's teething problems in the house.

[00:43:28]One more thing that I feel is missing is tampering of evidence that has happened which is also a crime in itself. like the CCTV footage is tampered and that's another crime. Moreover, the girl is being called a drugist. The girl herself, she's telling her own mother that mom, they think I'm a druggie.

[00:43:46]>> And even after her death, she's making statements like that. Like what's the proof? Like the girl while she was alive, she said that okay, such bases are being formed about me. And the mother, if she's that stressed, the mother-in-law, sorry, she's making 50 distressed calls to her colleagues that, okay, this is happening. What about those colleagues? Don't they know the law? And if she's that distressed, if she's so sad, then why is she making such comments after the death of her daughter-in-law?

[00:44:14]>> Clearly, those were to tamper with the evidence. And what about those 50 calls, those judges? Does nobody not know that the primary duty of any citizen is to inform the police? And it is so ironical they come from these backgrounds such educated law backgrounds. So I'm I'm really surprised at what's happening and why is >> whatever be the education batan at the end of the day whatever be the education you know if this is the kind of statement that is coming from a judge you know then education whatever family background social background doesn't make any difference if you're going to defame somebody who's dead in this particular manner.

[00:44:47]Prata.

[00:44:50]They are doing lots of mudslinging. Both parties are doing. Wait and watch. The court will decide. Let the investigation be fair. And let the court verdict come, not media trial. Media is not going to help the case at all.

[00:45:04]>> Ma'am, this is not a media. We are not going to. We are here. Let me just tell you the the audio clip that came out.

[00:45:10]You consider that a media trial? The audio clip in which she's talking utter nonsense about her now deceased daughter-in-law. to consider that a media.

[00:45:17]>> There will be many more audio clips coming and we will be here. We will be here and in Aman Sharma's case also the same things happened. Did we did we see any public outreach? Did we do any single discussions? Did we even ask where are they absconding? The system failure. Did we ask anything? The wife is the judge. The sister-in-law is an IPS officer. Did we in this particular case in this particular case? There is only a sense of outrage. There is only outrage question.

[00:45:55]Is this only selective outrage when it comes to women? That is the allegation of the men's right activist. It's not there in Aan Sharma case is our argument. Please respond.

[00:46:03]>> Absolutely wrong about that. Each case has to be taken on the facts.

[00:46:07]>> No, no. Let her answer. YOU ASKED A QUESTION. DOESN'T KNOW THE letter generalizing that neither where the law is concerned.

[00:46:18]As a lawyer, I would say that absolutely one is very sad about what happened to Aman Sharma and any other man who probably takes life into his own hands if he's facing harassment by his wife and by his in-laws. But you cannot you cannot weigh you cannot compare apples and oranges. Please let's talk over here. You know you're absolutely trying to gentize alimony versus different things.

[00:46:42]>> I think you know again most respectfully you know there is no need to compare two cases. I mean if something wrong was done madam just madam please please please if something wrong if if we were discussing that case you could have mentioned that aman sharma case you know things went wrong that's that you know that that's a different discussion completely what we are talking about here is you know a very unfortunate death of a promising lady and you know what what could have happened and you know and I want to bring in another factor over here you know you asked uh the lady that you think the law is strong enough I think you know we have to go a little beyond law And what you know an educated girl who's doing well in life professionally I mean why should should it happen that she gives up her life >> that means that there there's a complete absence of adequate support systems in society >> you know you you like you have you know you have in workplace you have uh >> posh act >> posh >> you have the posh act you have support systems you can report now when professionals work on their own there should be in every profession there should be a support group we should identify what's going wrong And people get take recourse to I mean yeah women having to give her life today it's really unfortunate the you know the view of society even today a divorce is seen as something very bad and you know and I'm not patriarchy but it's a fact that the you know the dice is really heavily loaded against women >> I think I think it's when it comes to social about whether they want a divorced daughter or a daughter who unfortunately ends up late I think that's also an important consideration this is the kind of cries for help SOS is Then certainly it's for family members for friends etc to step in and ensure that things do not go out of hand. We'll have to leave it there completely like to thank all of you.

[00:48:23]Raika Garwal, Rishika Dhan, Aba, Maria Ahabad, Priika Pawa, Ranjan Dwi, Vikas Gupta, Bkarat, Ryan, Shonikapo. Thank you so much for joining us on this edition of the national debate.