The Battle of Hampton Roads in March 1862 marked the birth of the ironclad warship era, where the Confederate CSS Virginia (converted from USS Merrimac) and the Union USS Monitor engaged in the first major naval battle between armored vessels. Virginia, with its casemated design and 21-foot draft, proved devastatingly effective against traditional wooden warships, sinking USS Cumberland and USS Congress. However, the Monitor's innovative rotating turret and low profile allowed it to survive the engagement, demonstrating that ironclad technology was still in experimental development. This battle revealed both the potential and limitations of armored warships, with Virginia's shallow draft preventing it from attacking Washington D.C., while the Monitor's minimal freeboard made it vulnerable to rough seas. The engagement demonstrated that naval warfare was entering a new technological era where both sides were learning through combat experience, with the Confederates later developing tactics to counter turreted ships and the Union building improved ironclad designs.
The Ironclad Age Begins, 1862: USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia (feat. Neil Chatelain and Sean Chick)
Added:Hello everybody and welcome back to another edition of History After Dark.
Tonight we're doing the naval version of the last streams. Last time we were on land going up the peninsula to Richmond.
This time we're looking at what the Union and Confederacy did during that same period of time at sea. So, we're going to be looking at the birth of the ironclad warship and also get into, I'm sure, the implications that that had for the civil war and also for the blockade the north was imposing on the south.
Joining us this evening, in addition to Shawn, we also have coming back for the second time, Neil Shadelane. So, Neil, how's it going?
>> It's going pretty good. Uh, glad to be here.
All right. And uh where should we begin this investigation into ironclads?
>> Well, um I guess you know phase one is what's an ironclad warship? So like you know it's just a vessel that has armor plating on the side of the ship on the side outer holes. So you basically have this idea of put iron plates on the side, artillery bounces off the side, and then it doesn't penetrate the wooden hole uh that's behind it. And then you've got this armored protected ship. I like to think of Civil War ironclads as very similar to like World War I tanks. You know, they're they're desperately trying to figure out how they work. They're desperately trying to try different models, different designs. Everybody's got some that look weird and um some are effective and some are not. So this kind of like a very basic overview there of uh that armored warships kind of started showing up around uh post Crimean war.
So you know the Crimean War in the 1850s around that time countries especially the British and the French they started experimenting with these ships. Um the French build this big ironclad frigate the Guire uh meaning the Glory and the British counter with this warship HMS Warrior. These are really big steam frigates with armor plate on the side.
Um, and that kind of begins this cold war essentially this armament's race between the British and the French on on building these. Fast forward a couple of years and all of a sudden when our war starts or the civil war starts in the United States, both sides are trying to build ironclad ships. So that's kind of like your basic where do I ironclads come from as a global perspective to an extent, >> right? I guess the big engineering challenge is probably figuring out how to keep them floating with all the extra weight on them, right?
>> Yeah. So, uh, naval architecture is really important and very few people in the United States and the world at this time really know how to build iron ships. So, iron hullled ships are starting to appear in some places. Um, where the the hull itself is not made out of wood, but it's made out of iron or some other metal material. Um, but those are very rare, extremely rare at this in the mid-9th century. Um, but you're right, the if you add weight to the side of the ship and that that weight is above the water line, so it's above the spot where the water is, that means the ship is getting heavier at a higher position, uh, and that can affect the buoyancy of a ship. And so, uh, a lot of serious calculations need to be done. That's why USS Monitor essentially has no what we call freeboard in the Navy. no space above the water line. You know, the hull of the ship stops about 6 in above where the water would be. And that's so that most of the weight of the ship is below the water to offset that buoyancy issue, >> right? Yeah. I mean, these ships end up kind of looking like surface submarines because of how low to the water they sit.
>> Yeah. the federal the federal uh monitor ironclads, you know, they very much look like just a floating box or a a surface submarine with the conning tower is a pretty decent uh analogy. Uh the Confederate casemated ironclads, they're they look a little bit different, but uh um but you're right, like they nobody really knows what they're supposed to look like. And so as a result, they all look weird. They all look different. And everybody, if you read the original like text from everybody, they're constantly coming up with different names for these things because nobody really knows how to describe them without, you know, calling it a raft or a barn or a whale or something like that because nobody really knows what they're supposed to be.
I guess that makes sense. And like you're saying, people are trying to figure out the correct design, how to maximize this concept. And um yeah, you mentioned some of the earlier designs that also had a very different aesthetic to them. So, um I mean of the designs we'll look at tonight, which one kind of pointed the way forward for future ironclads?
>> Yes. So, um it's a tough question and the answer is kind of both designs. So, like uh we're talking about the two primary designs that are used at like the Battle of Hampton Roads, you know, the the casemated ironclad Virginia for the Confederacy and then the turreted smaller ironclad monitor for the United States. Um monitor has its rotating turret. It's not the only ship that has a rotating turret during the Civil War.
It's not the It's not the first ship with a rotating turret in the world. The British have a different turret design, the Cole's turret. Um, being used at the same time. The Confederates even end up with a couple with a turreted ship towards the end of the war. Um, so the turret design is being modified. And a lot of people point at the turret as being, you know, well, that's the thing that people use in the 20th century for for warships. And so that's a pretty obvious innovation. Um, but the Confederate casemated design is also going to be copied in a lot of ways. So that you know like early 20th century, you know, torpedo destroyers, what we would call destroyers today, kind of almost to an extent look like what those look like except with a turret instead of cannons on broadside. So there's a lot of um things taken away from both. And then there are other ironclad designs that are also modified and used as well post war and influence the overall kind of arms race of what these are supposed to be.
>> Uh, one thing I got to know right now is what ship is the turreted Confederate ship because I I didn't know they had one.
>> Yeah. So they had they had one. It was um CSS Stonewall. The the weird part is >> Oh, that one >> the turret didn't rotate. It was a fixed turret. So, it was a round turret and the gun inside could move and they just had port holes sticking out of like different angles of the turret so it couldn't actually rotate. Um, the layered rams that they built for the Confederates that the British Navy, the Royal Navy confiscated, those had turrets. Um, but those used the British cow's turret. And then there was actually a design I found this in the archives uh recently. Hold on. I can pull up the um there's this I there's this guy named Warner and um he is in charge of a Confederate naval system.
He's a chief engineer in the Confederate Navy. Um and in early 1865, he actually sends a note to Richmond saying, "I've figured out how to make a turreted ship in the Confederacy. I can have it ready by late 65, early 66." Um obviously that one doesn't get built.
And real quick, where does that because we were talking about that a bit, I think, before we got the stream started, but because somebody asked last time, where does the name Monitor come from?
Because we obviously know where Virginia comes from.
>> Yeah. So, um, so the the guy who builds Monitor, who designs it, his name is John Ericson. He's a Swedish architect and engineer. Um, he built a lot of ships for the US Navy. Um, designed artillery for the Navy. uh he came up with the name um and essentially what he said was that the ship name it means essentially that the ship is designed to be seen so that other people will watch it so that it can kind of make history.
It's not the the name itself doesn't specifically mean like like it came from a specific location or group or something like that or at least the guy who made the ship never wrote down anything along those lines. So, it's more of a symbol of like it is monitoring the Confederates, but others want to monitor it because it's supposed to be, you know, making history, quote unquote. Uh, that's the best guess that we have. But, you know, Erikson never wrote anything down about, you know, here is why I designed the ship and named it this way. So, we'll kind of never really know unless some document comes up out of nowhere.
>> Okay.
>> Cards close to the vest on that one then.
>> Well, I mean, you never know. I mean, people write things down and then they also don't write a lot of things down.
And unfortunately, we'll never know about a lot of those unknowns unless some random thing comes out of nowhere.
But alas, >> I guess it would be what uh Donald Romeo called a known unknown.
>> Yeah, it's a good that's that's an interesting analogy for it. But yeah.
>> All right. So, um, and I guess, uh, you know, somebody last time had asked if it had anything to do with monitor lizards.
You know, I think you said you don't think there's any relation between these ships and monitor lizards.
>> Yeah, I I think I I mean, the only thing like a monitor lizard is named that.
Why? Because it um watches its prey very closely. So, I guess there could be an analogy there. Um, whether Ericson saw those lizards walking around and was like, I will name my ship after that, I I don't think that's the case, but yeah, you never know. Yeah, guess it's hard to say. So, but I guess at least in this case it it is more it does seem a lot more deliberate than say the naming of tanks, you know, which just was a term the British invented to throw off the Germans, you know, just a vague term that doesn't mean anything.
>> Yes. Yeah, it's true. And um what's interesting to me the most is that future monitor warships definitely do not have that symbolic name. They just start naming them after cities, towns, you know, everything. Um, you know, there's there's USS Payic, there's USS Manhattan. Um, there's a whole Kamanche after a Native American tribe, but they misspelled the name the trib's name. So, it's uh forever the ship name is misspelled. So, but that's interesting enough, I suppose. So when it comes to getting these to the point where they were uh sophisticated enough to actually really go out in the high seas, say across the Atlantic, and when they, you know, start to just resemble metal versions of traditional wooden ships, I mean, how long does that process take before they can really get uh this new technology fully functional and you know, not just, you know, these heavy river boats that are built for taking a pounding.
>> Yeah. So, um, actually the very first ironclads are those gigantic ships that can cross the ocean. That's the very first proof of concept. Um, the British and the French ships were steam frigates. They were essentially they looked just like giant wooden ships just with iron armor on the side. They had the three masts, all that sort of stuff.
So, um, those were the first uh, when the US Navy built Monitor, it was simultaneously building one of those type of ships as well. It's called New Iron Sides. The name obviously being a successor to old iron sides USS Constitution. Um and the US Navy actually um builds a couple of what they call oceangoing ironclads just like the Confederates try to build oceangoing ironclads in Europe. That's what Stonewall is or those layered rams that I had mentioned earlier. Those are ships designed to cross the Atlantic Ocean um and then fight afterwards. So not all ironclads are these coastal huggers or these river ships or anything like that.
Um, most of the Civil War vessels are that and that's largely because of geography. You know, you can't build a giant steam ship and then bring it into Charleston Harbor where the water's only 10 ft deep. And so you can't have a 30 foot draft on a ship. So they can't build giant oceangoing vessels to go to Charleston. Um, you know, same in Mobile Bay, same in other places. So in many ways the monitor and the Virginia are just adaptations of a new but existing technology.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it's and and especially for monitor it was designed essentially to meet the needs of what had to be done. You know they needed it to be built in a very quick amount of time very swiftly. It needed to be very low in drafts not take up too much water space underneath the the the water line.
It needed to be mobile because it would be moving around in confined water space where it couldn't maneuver very much.
And so what you end up with is small ship, only a couple of cannons, rotating turrets so that it can move and shoot any direction. Um, like it's kind of a, you know, you play the cards you're dealt and you end up with what you got.
W >> with regard to the turret. Um, that was pretty innovative for the time, wasn't it? Or were there previous ships?
No, no, no. So, the first the first turreted ships are showing up around 1860, 1861, 1862. Uh, and that's globally. Um, the British are experimenting with some turret designs.
The US turret design is more sophisticated as in like a steam engine moves the turret. The British design is there's a hand crank that moves the turret um around so that you don't have an engine doing it. Both have their own advantages, but they're both experimenting at the same time about that. So, uh, that's also a concept that they're kind of just seeing what works and what sticks at the same time as they're using them in combat.
>> Well, so I guess this would have been an incredibly exciting time to be, you know, a naval engineer because this was this highly experimental age where you never knew what was coming out of the shipyards next.
>> Yes. Um, so naval constructors were in very high demand. Those are the pe like the naval architects who designed these things. The engineers operating them, they were both very innovative and they had to figure out how to keep these things going. But what's weird is that engineers at the time, naval engineers um in the armed forces were actually viewed as like a secondass naval officer. Uh they weren't line officers.
They couldn't command ships at sea. They were told to mind their own business in many ways. Uh and when they told ship captains, you know, this is what our engines can do. A lot of times the ship captains would say, well, a sail doesn't break, so why are we why do we even have you? There's there's very much some animosity between line officers, uh commanding ships, and engineering officers in many respects. And that's not all universal, but um it existed for sure.
I think I could say that that that somewhat extend that would extend also to Titanic because the chief engineer is not even like I mean he might be seventh or eighth in command of the ship, >> right? Yeah.
>> Something like that, >> you know.
>> Yeah. And that division still remains. I mean the US Coast Guard, if you become an officer in the Coast Guard today, you either go deck or you go engine. And if you go engine, you're not going to command a ship. You're going to command the engineering department. And if you go deck, you'll never command engines, but you'll be commanding a ship eventually. Um, merchant sailors still do that a lot today. Um, where they pick a specialtity. Uh, so like that that division actually still exists in many respects in many areas.
That makes sense. Um, what does the um, uh, one thing I curious curious about with this also is when do the how soon do the Confederates decide that they're going to build ironclads? And the understanding I have in telling you this is wrong is that Secretary of the Navy Steven Mallerie, you know, very quickly figures out, hey, you know, there's no way we're going to beat them by building uh, you know, like we're not going to outbuild the Union in in basic warships of the time. So, it's better if we concentrate on just powerful ironclad warships.
>> Yeah. Yeah, you're right that Mallerie sees it sees it first. Um, Mallerie before becoming Confederate Navy Secretary, he was the he was a US senator representing Florida and he was the head of the US Senate Committee on Naval Affairs. And so in the 1850s, he actually helped push through a lot of reforms. And in the 1850s, he kind of demanded the US Navy start thinking about and building ironclad ships. And the Navy basically said, "We're not doing that. It's too late. It's too early. We don't care. We're at peace.
Doesn't matter." Um, when the Confederacy is invented, there's a couple of ironclad programs that kind of begin almost immediately. Uh, there's one in New Orleans by this John Stevenson guy. He's not even in the Navy. He's trying to build an ironclad privateeer on his own, and that's a whole another ballgame story there. Um, the other one is what becomes the Ironclad Virginia. You know, it's built off the hull of USS Marramac. Marramac is is burned and then sinks. It's a US ship that is left at the Gosopport Navyyard in Norfolk, Virginia, Portsmith, Virginia. When the US abandons it, they burn the ship. They sink the ship. The Confederates are raising that ship. So, the Gossport gets evacuated in April of 61. The Confederates are raising that ship by May and they're bringing it into the dry dock in the Navyyard in May, and they're already beginning the work to con to to salvage the hull and then build an ironclad on top of it. then um and obviously takes a long time, but like they're doing that in May 1861 and that that John Stevenson guy in New Orleans is literally in Montgomery, Alabama in April 1861 saying, "Here's my ironclad design. Here's my ironclad design." So the Confederates definitely um are starting early. And you're right that um they're doing this because they recognize, you know, when the Civil War begins, the US Navy's 57 active ships plus another 40 ships is what they call in ordinary decommission ships that can be reactivated if need be in an emergency. Um the Confederate Navy is zero ships. So even if the US Navy is small, it's a whole lot bigger than the Confederate Navy is. And they have a lot more industrial capacity to build more.
So the Confederates are outnumbered and they essentially say, "Well, we can build ironclad ships to augment that inferiority in numbers." And they built a lot. The Confederates built a lot of ironclad ships during the war.
Interesting.
Yeah. So, um I guess >> Oh, I I did forget to ask. Sorry, I was muted real quick. Um what is the uh so they're raising they're raising a Marramac that quickly. I mean they're resigning this relatively quickly. What is their thinking on what they want Virginia to do exactly? Yeah. So it's kind of difficult. So, first thing, the ironclad. So, Marramac was a a giant steam frigot. And when they build the ironclad Virginia on it, first thing that you kind of really need to understand is that it has a 21 ft draft.
This thing is a very deep ship. Um, which means, well, step one, it can't go up the PTOIC River. So, like attacking Washington DC is not something Virginia is going to be able to do. Um, it's not seaorthy enough to get to New York City.
Theoretically, it has the coal capacity in its bunker to do that, but like it's not going to get to New York City. What the ship is really designed to do is step one, break the US blockade of Hampton Roads, Virginia. Step two, interfere with US military forces in Virginia on in coastal Virginia. And then step three, kind of keep the coastline of Virginia free of the US blockade so that blockade runners can come through, create a diplomatic victory internationally, and then use that to buy time to build more ships. I mean, like something that people don't really think about is the Battle of Hampton Roads is what, March 1862, March 8th and 9th. The Confederates are building a second ship at the Gosopport Navyyard, another ironclad already at that time. becomes CSS Richmond, which then gets brought up the James River after Norfolk gets captured by the US by the US. Um they're already building a second one, a smaller one that could do more um theoretically. And so Virginia is not going to win the war single-handedly. It's not going to sweep away the coastline and attack Boston.
That's that's impossible. Um it's got limited means just because of how of its dimensions. And uh they realize that.
And so the Confederates, they play very close to the vest, you know, how big is the ship, how deep is the draft, all those numbers are hidden. Uh so in the hope that the US will freak out and that's why, you know, when the Battle of Hampton Roads is happening, people in Lincoln's cabinet are freaking out in DC. Uh but the Secretary of the Navy, Gideon Wells, is just sitting there like, "The ship can't get here. We're not in danger. We don't have to worry about it." So um yeah, like the mission of Virginia is not win the war. It's break the US blockade of Hampton Roads and then keep it open for for commerce essentially.
>> So I guess it goes back to a theme of last stream where um we talked about how the whole time Mlullen's in the peninsula, Lincoln is incredibly fearful of an attack on DC.
>> Mhm. Yeah, it's true. And um and and notice I didn't say stop Mlen on the peninsula cuz like there is no peninsula campaign when they're building Virginia.
Obviously, the peninsula campaign starts when they're finishing the the conversion of Virginia, and that becomes a mission for the ship, too, is we could interfere with um US activity there. In fact, when they launch the Battle of Hampton Roads when Virginia strikes the blockading ships, one of the ideas was we can get McGrder on the peninsula to launch an attack at the same time and maybe it'll be like a coordinated assault and that just doesn't materialize. Um, but like that becomes something after they did they didn't build the ship to stop Mlen on the peninsula, but that becomes a a mission essentially after it starts happening.
>> Interesting.
I guess uh given the state of Army Navy cooperation in this period with communications being what they were and you know your naval forces of necessity being undrilled at this point. Uh, I guess that was always a pretty high fantasy kind of scenario.
>> Yeah. And and you bring up a good point about cooperation. There is no army navy cooperation period. Um, you know, a general in the US Army could ask an enen in the US Navy to go do something and the enson could say no because the Navy Department and the War Department are two separate highlevel cabinet positions and they're completely separate organizations. Um, and until the officers on scene essentially agree that I will listen to that guy or I will take his orders under advisement, they don't have to listen to each other. Um, and that's for both sides. And that causes some serious angst in some places, you know. Um, Ulissiz Grant and David Dixon Porter work well on the Mississippi River, but if Grant or Porter are not present in a certain location, their subordinates are there, their subordinates fight each other a lot. And then very little gets done sometimes in those respects. And so the coordination thing, it's a legitimate problem that needs to be overcome. And some officers work really well together and others just do not.
And so that that complicates things even further.
>> I mean, I guess even with a clear command structure though, still cooperation can be difficult when you have two different branches who you have different basic doctrines and >> uh different timetables and everything else trying to work together. But I mean, yeah, if you take into mind the rivalry and the different organizations, I mean, then it becomes it becomes almost just a joke for them to even put up a plan like that >> because there's no way happen.
>> It it's even harder with communication cuz like the US Army has its own signal flag system. The Navy has its own a separate signal flag system and they're not the same. And so um like for example when David Farragut attacks Mobile Bay, he has soldiers from the army forces attacking the forts on his ships so that they can translate army signals from ashore at the same time so that his sailors can actually talk to the soldiers ashore. Um that's not everywhere. That's that's one case of that happening. Um so it can it can get pretty difficult.
>> Wow.
Yeah. And some of that also of course I mean naturally has to do with personalities you know like I remembered uh uh Farragut and Banks didn't particularly get along too well but that that that wasn't quite as vital because you know Farragut you know takes himself a bit out of the equation by running the guns at Port Hudson you know but uh I know in the case of Mlen he's having difficulties with Lewis Goldsboro who's the on the site commander.
>> Yeah. No it's it's true like Mlen has difficulties coordinating with naval officers. Um, in ' 63 in Charleston, Bogard doesn't work very well with Duncan Ingraham. Ingraham gets fired and then his other naval officer, John Tucker, takes over in Charleston. And him and Bogard work were great together and do a lot. And that kind of helped keep Charleston in Confederate hands in ' 63. So like personality can make all the difference there in many respects.
And you know, on the peninsula, that possibly helped stall operations for the US in some respects. uh whereas a more coordinated push could have resulted in more more quick movement and I that's tough to say when Mlullen's involved but uh you know >> well he's got the problems with those heavy fortifications too but uh one other way one other one too though just just a real quick aside question um [clears throat] I've heard it said that uh one of the big problems between Gilmore and Dogrren when they're overseeing the operations against Charleston is that both of them were afraid the other one was going to get more credit for the capture of the city.
Yeah, there's there's a lot to unpack with that. I could do a whole like hour on just Dolin and Gilmore. Um first thing is you're right. When they first land on Morris Island in 63, they work well together. The Navy is covering the army landings. They seize most of Morris Island up to Battery Wagner. Then the Army launches attacks without telling the Navy. And then they launch another attack without telling the Navy. And then in the middle of all of the that um Dogrin's staff officers, his chief of staff, one of them gets sick and has to go home. And then a new guy who's not a captain but a commander in the Navy, you know, a rank below. That guy gets shot and then the guy below him is a lieutenant commander all of a sudden in charge of the staff and that guy gets killed and then the next guy is a lieutenant. You know, the the equivalent of an army captain is the chief of staff for the whole fleet and he gets captured in in an amphibious assault. And and in that amphibious assault, neither the army or navy talked to each other about coordinating it and then it just failed miserably. That's the the September attack on fort on Fort Sumpter that failed miserably, you know. So like in part it's they they're glory hunting. In part Dogg's staff is falling apart. And that's at the same time Dolin's finding out that his son just got shot in the Gettysburg campaign and like he's having and and you know John Dolin's having like a nervous breakdown because he has no staff. His son is shot. He's got all this pressure. So like there are some complicating aspects and then Gilmore's like glory hunting at the same time. I mean do was too but uh it all it's like a recipe for disaster in some cases.
>> Yeah. And it should also one quick note of that too. I've rarely found a case where Gilmore got along with particularly anybody that he had to work with.
>> Yeah. I mean, that happens.
>> Yeah. That's game the premier hundred campaign though, which is the u the uh him and Baldy Smith and um Butler formed the uh John Paul George and Ringo of 1970 where they all don't like the other two. So, you [laughter] know, listed names and I was like, "Oh my god, these names."
>> [laughter] >> Yeah. No, I'm just like I'm like uh you know I I I dare say the Premier Hunter campaign has the most dysfunctional Union High Command has the most dysfunctional high command I've run into outside of maybe like some late stage brag stuff with the Army of Tennessee >> and they budgeoned themselves into almost near possible success.
Yeah. [laughter] Although I did looking at one of these uh I was I went through a bunch of my Civil War magazines kind of like I wrote down what kind of articles I have just so I can have a quick reference for talks like this or just anything in general. And I actually did find a really nice painting of Drury's Bluff.
So I may >> try to see if I can get that for something in the future, you know, because I because you know me, I love just collecting images. Uh but anyways, >> yeah. Oh yeah, I think I I've got at this point I've got thousands on the computer. But anyways, um, so that's what they're thinking about with Virginia. Um, and I guess what we want to lead I guess we want to go into is Wait, do you want to say anything else before we get into Virginia's famous first foray?
>> I mean, we we'll just other stuff will come up organically, I suppose. So, we can just dive into.
>> Gotcha. You got anything else? You got anything you want to ask, Derek? Uh, anything else before we get to the uh get to the blood and guts here? All right. So, uh, everybody. Okay, everybody, let's get ready. This is the, uh, this is the big moment, right?
Unveiling Virginia.
>> That's funny.
>> But this is what this is going to be like the opening Star Wars, you know? We got the giant ship coming in, you know?
>> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Except it's coming in a whole lot slower than that star destroyer somehow.
>> Yeah. It's a slowmoving death.
>> Yeah. No, but what what Sean what you're referring to is the March 8th part of the Battle of Hampton Roads, right?
where Virginia goes out and sinks all the ships and runs.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, it leads to that like that that funny line in Ken Burns Civil War where he goes for one where you know McCulla is like for one day the Confederate Navy ruled the seas.
>> Yeah, that's a very loaded statement but sure >> it it's a loaded statement but I've always I've loved the uh the the drama of it, you know, and I'm kind of paraphrasing. I haven't watched the episode in a while but I remember thinking that was a great line. Oh, no, no. It's I mean the Ken Burn series is full of good oneliners like that. I guess >> it would be more accurate to say for one day the Confederate Navy ruled an estuary.
>> Very important estuary.
>> Yeah, it it's essentially Yeah, but like the accomplishment is not as much essentially as you might think, but it's still a pretty significant accomplishment. I mean, March 8th, 1862 is the biggest naval defeat of the United States Navy in its history up to that point.
>> Wait, so you're not counting you're not going to count Penobcott Bay >> with uh in the revolution, right?
>> I mean, I guess you could, but like >> wasn't that like a Massachusetts?
>> That's the continental navy. This is the US Navy. Apparently, it's different.
>> Okay. All right. All right. All right.
That's so make it clear. Okay. Okay, so we're talking about, you know, we're not on the Articles of Confederation. Also, I think Penelope Scott Bay was like, uh, technically the even be more spec, I think it was a the fleet of the colony.
Well, not that kind of the colony, but you know, the fleet of Massachusetts, I want to say, right? I'll look that up, though.
>> But, you know, um, but uh, but okay. So, all right. So, this is going to be the US Navy's biggest defeat. And >> would you say, just real quick, this would be the US Navy's biggest defeat until Pearl Harbor? Is there anything in between this and Pearl Harbor that's that gives it a run for its money?
>> Um, I guess the closest thing that would come to the big a bigger defeat would be almost what happened on the Red River in 64, but they saved it.
>> Yeah, that that that's one >> that would have been that would have been a complete fiasco if uh that would have been pulled off.
We So, and you also would not count uh Port Hudson on March 14th, right?
>> No, I would not count Port Hudson. A because Farragut successfully passed the fort with a couple of ships. Um and B I think what only one ship was lost technically sunk.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. USS Mississippi.
Although just about all every ship took a pretty took a lot of damage.
>> Yeah.
>> So the smaller vessels went okay.
Farragette on the Hartford. He he he's all right, but the vessels behind him, one sinks, the other >> the other ones get battered to hell. But yeah, I I I I I the degree to which Port Hudson can be rated as success is doubtful simply because with two vessels, Farragate can't cover enough ground. Well, cover >> I mean, you're right. Like, and it's not meant to cover ground at Port Hudson.
They wanted to get past the fort so that they could essentially just blockade the Red River because of >> yeah, >> the upriver coming from Vixsburg blockade got stopped by um you know the Confederate ships attacking USS Indianola and everything like that. So um >> Okay. All right.
>> I call it victory because supplies stopped flowing from the Red River to Port Hudson.
>> All right. I I Okay. Well, all right.
All right. Well, you know what? We'll uh we'll talk about that one other time because I've heard some people say that it didn't interject that much in supply-wise because they didn't get enough ships.
>> Yeah. And I'm not saying that it was a game changer on food or anything like that. But um >> yeah, >> you know, like if their goal was to block the river, they blocked it. But you know, it's okay.
>> Yeah, I can see what you mean. Uh, one fun little thing I like though is that uh Banks on the uh on the mill on the land side in Port Hudson does not know Farragut is essentially run the guns isn't okay until he gets a wine bottle that floats down the river from Farragut saying, "Hey, I made it over two boats."
>> Yeah, but Banks isn't even there. Like he's down >> Oh, no. He's He's at Port Hudson at the time.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> Yeah. No, no, he's like he he conducts a um even though him and Farragate had some tension uh Banks gamey uh took a not took took about 15,000 men towards Port Hudson to at least distract the Confederates and to add some of his artillery to the firing, >> you know. Uh but >> and then he did a bunch of other operations, too, but we're not going to get into that. We'll there'll be a poor Hudson stream sometime down the line. I I just wanted to gauge what about defeat here. So anyways, we're on to >> No, we can we can hit we I'll talk about I can talk about Bayutesh all day, you know, whenever.
>> Oh, yeah. That's easy.
>> No. Yeah. One of my favorite campaigns, too. But anyways, all right, we're ready for April. I'm sorry. March 8th. March 8th.
>> So, um, so yeah. So, March 8th is it's it's very interesting to me because that's the day that Virginia, the ironclad, is supposed to be tested. It's supposed to be its sea trials. and the guy in charge of Virginia, the ship doesn't even have a captain. There's a there's the the commodore of the Naval Squadron, and they never named an official captain of the ship. So, the Commodore of the Naval Squadron, Franklin Buchanan, he's going to command the ship and the squadron. And when I say squadron, there's Virginia and then a couple of small wooden gunboats that have like a couple of cannons that they don't really do anything cuz they can't.
Um, and they're supposed to rendevous with a couple of other wooden gunboats f that are coming down from the James River. So, there's supposed to be this mosquito fleet of Confederate ships that go with Virginia and attack the blockade. But like, let's just say the only ship doing anything is Virginia and the rest just kind of watch that day cuz you know, the US Navy blockading ships are gigantic compar comparatively.
So Virginia goes out on this sea trial.
Captain Buchanan, the guy in charge, essentially says, "It's not a sea trial.
We're going to attack." And then they launch an attack against the US blockade. Um, and just to give you like the very brief rundown of it, first thing that they do is they steam very slowly. I mean, they have to go from the Gosopport Navyyard to essentially where Naval Station Norfolk is today, you know, Su's point and um it's like 10 miles and the ship can't go 10 miles an hour. So, like everybody's watching it coming extremely slowly. Um and that's just, you know, a very slowm moving thing. So, the US Navy knows the ship's coming. They can prepare, you know, they're like, "Let's have lunch quickly before the ship shows up." so our men are have food. That sort of an idea. Um Virginia shows up. Everybody starts shooting at it. You know, the cannonballs bounce off the side. Sort of an idea.
Virginia targets the the one of the blockading ships, USS Cumberland, which is a sailing frigot. Um you know, kind of like USS Constitution, but a little bit younger than that. Uh rams that ship, sinks that ship. um almost founders in the process cuz it's RAM kind of gets stuck in Cumberland and when it's backing up the ship kind of really they get lodged together for a while. Um so that took a little bit of a problem. They back Virginia up. They target another ship uh USS Congress.
They don't ram that ship because the ram's kind of broken off at that point.
They attack USS Congress which is another sailing frigot. So these ships can't move during the battle. They're just anchored there. They can't sail. Um they're just kind of like using their anchor to try to, you know, veer more anchor chain and then try to get another anchor to try and move the ship in an arc to maneuver some artillery pieces sort of a thing. Congress shoots at Virginia. Virginia shoots at Congress.
Congress is set on fire. The ship burns.
The crew abandoned ship essentially. Um and the ship strikes its flag and surrender.
As the ship strikes its flag and surrender, Confederates actually send some small boats to go seize the officers and take possession of the the wreck. Um, they do this under a flag of truce. You know, the ship surrendered.
They were they raised the white flag.
They lowered the uh their their naval enson and that's supposed to like theoretically stop hostilities on the scene.
Well, the the US army right there um in Newport News, you know, on the peninsula, they see they're watching the battle. And some of the soldiers ashore, they're shooting, you know, little pot shots with light artillery, you know, like little field artillery guns, which really small compared to the naval guns.
And they're using musketss and they're shooting at Virginia. And Buchanan, the guy in charge of the Confederate ironclad, he's essentially, you know, really upset that the US Army is shooting at his ship while his ship is receiving the surrender of this USS Congress sailing frig. So Buchanan kind of goes onto the top deck of his ironclad and does the naval equivalent of like shake his fist at the enemy troops ashore and he like picks up a musket, starts shooting at them. Uh Buchanan mysteriously gets shot in the leg at that time. Um and the the the exo the executive officer of Virginia has to take command. His name is Kate B. Jones.
Um he's a lieutenant in the Confederate Navy. He's actually an ordinance officer, but whatever. and they're planning to go attack the next blockading ship uh which is USS Minnesota which is a steam frig so it has engine power but Minnesota in maneuvering that day ran a ground on a shaw and so it's stuck in the mud and Virginia is approaching Minnesota to attack it um when they realize the ship is a ground you know Minnesota was a sister ship to USS Marramac before it was converted into Virginia it's the same type of ship the same class, same dimensions, and they realize, well, if that ship's a ground, we can't get close to it, or we're going to run around and get stuck, and then we're doomed. And so, Virginia retreats. They anchor off of Su's point that night and basically say, "Well, we'll just go attack Minnesota in the morning. It'll be great. It'll be awesome. And we'll finish the job tomorrow." And they all congratulate themselves for a job well done. Um, that's kind of your very barebones overall, what happened March 8th, 1862 situation.
Yeah. When he said Katesby Jones, I suddenly remembered. Wait, that he's is he he must be related to the one who's the commander at Lake Bourne in the War of 1812, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's his um dad, I think.
>> Um >> Okay. Wow.
>> Yes. Um so Kates B. Jones's his full name is Katesby App R. Jones and um so his dad is Roger Jones. Um so it might be his granddad actually. I don't remember off the top of my head. Yeah, they're obviously >> but it's a Welsh Welsh thing, you know, name inheritance kind of a thing.
>> Yeah. No, like uh the Lake Bourne is like the other contender, I guess, for uh US naval defeat, you know.
>> Yeah, >> I'd say that one's not as bad just because like the ships are so small and they knew they were going to lose anyway. So, >> yeah, I got a point there. Got a point there. But yeah, u No, no. So, Lake Bourne. Um, so that No, then when I immediately said his name, I remembered, wait, that's the guy from Lake Bourne.
Yes.
>> Um, by the way, the CaseB Jones you mentioned, I did see a painting of him in the Civil War Naval Museum, which I was there about two weeks ago.
>> Yeah. Uh, which they got a great flag collection there, but of course I do because his naval flags are massive.
>> Yeah. Anyways, >> um, his uncle is Thomas App. Jones from the War of 1812.
So that's that's his uncle.
>> Okay. That's his uncle. Gotcha. Gotcha.
U so um [clears throat] one real quick what can you really tell us about Buchanan because I know he's later on going to command in Mobile Bay correct?
>> Yeah so Buchanan is really crazy guy. Uh first thing he's old comparatively uh you know he's born in 1800 which that makes him not as old as some naval officers during the Civil War. You know some other guys are born in the 1790s like what Lawrence Russo was 1790 or something like that. Uh, and then he was quickly sidelined for being really old.
Buchanan when the war starts is in charge of the Washington Naval Yard. So, literally he gets invited to the White House and at the beginning of the war and I think Lincoln actually attends his daughter's wedding before he joins the Confederate Navy right at the very beginning of the war. He's from Maryland. Um, his family enslaves people. He's a very diehard um pro-slavery person and he uh he thinks Maryland's going to secede when the war starts and he actually resigns his commission in the US Navy. Um and then when Maryland doesn't secede, he actually sends a note back to the US Navy saying, "Hey, can I unresign my commission, please?" And they say, "Uh, no." Ends up in the Confederate Navy.
Oh, yeah. No, it's true. Yeah. It's it's ridiculous. joins the Confederate Navy because apparently he's got nothing else to do all of a sudden. Um, and they put him in charge of this the the the fleet in the Hampton Roads area for the Confederacy. And he's he's a hard charger. I mean, he is one of those like battlethirsty naval officers. Um, that's why he's in charge at Hampton Roads with Virginia because they know they need this aggressive officer. That's the same reason he ends up in Mobile Bay um against Farragut. Uh he's got a couple of bio biographies out there. There's an old one. What's by this by this guy named Lewis and then uh Craig Simons wrote a biography of him um >> a couple decades ago.
>> Yeah. No, I uh Oh, I'm sorry. Just the other thing, sorry, the uh I did want to mention real quick Lincoln trying to win over Southern Officers. He tried the same with a number of other ones in particular where it also didn't work was McGrder >> and Roberty Lee because Lee got his promotion to colonel.
>> Yeah.
>> Pretty much right, you know, right as such crisis is happening as an endorsement to keep him loyal which >> Yeah, he was he was a colonel for what, like four days or something like that.
Five days a week.
>> Hey man, I think that's still longer than Bogard as superintendent of West Point, you know.
>> Yeah, that was what a day.
>> Three days.
>> Yeah. So with Franklin Buchanan, I mean, I'm getting hard drinker vibes.
>> I don't know if he was a hard drinker.
He was hard with everything he did, you know? I don't know if he was a drinker or not. That would I'd have to reread the biographies on that. But um like after the war, he's writing letters in 1868, 1869 saying, "My family are Confederates, and to say anything else is ridiculous." You know, like he's not an apologist or anything like that. Um, so like everything he does is to to the core like that. Um, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was a drinker, but I mean that's every naval officer I suppose.
>> And also I like how uh his whole reason for being in the Confederacy is simply that Maryland wouldn't take him. Like that's and then he stuck with the cause even after. That's kind of nuts.
>> Alas, but a lot of early Confederate naval officers are from Maryland. Uh Hollands in New Orleans, he's a Marylander as well. He's from Baltimore.
Uh so like that's it's kind of interesting to me that Maryland doesn't secede essentially, but a lot of naval officers from Maryland end up joining the Confederacy and achieving high ranks, high positions. So Maryland could say they do crab cakes football and Confederate admirals, [laughter] >> you know, and and when he resigned his commission, he had done a measly 45 years of service in the US Navy at that point. So, you know, >> I'm not even I'm not even 45 years old yet, man. I mean, if you give me some months, right? But uh 45, man.
>> Yeah. Also, also Derek, you forgot the other thing I had about Maryland besides crab cakes and football is also the wire. Okay.
>> Wow.
>> Right. Well, >> okay. So, they got that.
>> Yeah.
>> So, um so, okay. So, what is the uh what's the um uh what is the uh well, I guess one thing is is there anything like a I don't know, myth might be too strong a word, but misconception about the about this engagement that you'd like to mention?
>> Um >> there's anything?
>> Sure. Yeah, there's a couple of things.
Uh, first thing is there were other ships involved and there were a couple of small like tugs that were trying to maneuver the US Navy ships, a couple of smaller vessels doing that and they took some serious damage. I think maybe one of them was destroyed or nearly destroyed. Um, and so like there are a lot of vessels. It's not one Confederate ironclad versus a couple of big sailing frigots. There's a almost a half dozen Confederate warships on scene. Most of them are small and just shooting from a very small far distance. And there's several other blockading ships or support vessels on scene taking active part. And so it's not just a, you know, three big ships fighting each other.
There there's significantly more activity happening and like the whole Hampton Roads area was just kind of a this medum of ships maneuvering after each other and trying to gain an advantage. So, it's a lot more confusing than what people might think.
>> Okay.
Um, what is the uh what is the reaction after this day on both sides?
>> Yeah, the Confederates, they're assessing the ship's situation cuz that was at sea trial. So, they're like, well, does the did the engines work? You know, it's it's taken damage. Um, you know, Virginia isn't indestructible.
Some of the iron plates are loose. The smoke stack got shot up. If you blow up the smoke stack and put punch it through full of holes, um the smoke can't the exhaust can't like leave, right? And then that could create some backwash and then that could cause the engines to fail. So like that's actually a tactic that people would use back then. Um so you know, Virginia has some damage and they're trying to reassess and make some some um early repairs so they can go back out the next day. The the blockaders for the US Navy, they're they're freaking out. Um, you know, Minnesota is one of the modern steam frigots and these other sailing ships that were destroyed, you know, those were like the pride of the US Navy in some respects. You know, like that's the biggest ships with the most cannons that you could offer and they did nothing essentially against the Confederate ironclad. And so people are really, you know, on the scene, people are freaking out in a lot of ways. Um, in Washington DC, you know, Lincoln's getting telegraph messages from Hampton Roads, from Fort Monroe, and it's not pretty, and a lot of his cabinet officers are freaking out about this. They're worried that Virginia is going to show up in DC the next day, even though that's impossible. Um, he Lincoln actually goes to the Washington Naval Yard where John Dolin is hanging out because he's in charge of the Navyyard at the time.
Lincoln talks to him about what are the realities? Can the ship get here? What can it do? Um, and so Dogrren actually has to calm Lincoln down a little bit about some of the actual tangibles regarding all this. Um, but as a as the all of that's taking shape, that's when USS Monitor arrives on the scene. It actually shows up at Hampton Roads just as the battle is ending at dusk, sort of a thing. It's just showing up on the horizon. Um, and it's joining in and taking stock of what's going on.
Oh, I got to know which uh which cabinet officials were freaking out. This I have to know if you know.
>> Yeah, Wells was not. Um I think uh Stanton was freaking out.
>> Of course he was.
>> I'm trying to remember if Seward was, but I don't remember off the top of my head or not.
>> I wouldn't I I wouldn't be surprised if Seward was either. But they but they were literally like in they h they they they had an ad hoc cabinet meeting like read Gideon Wells's diary entry for for that day. And it's like they met and they were having a serious debate over what could this ship realistically do and what does that actually mean? And some people were overreacting and others were trying to calm people down. And it was kind of a a free-for-all for a little while.
>> Wow.
All right. Uh and uh so um Mer like you said arrived pretty much just like you know like as as the fighting's ending.
Uh do we want to move on to the second day or we got some more something else?
Anything else?
>> Just everybody knows who's listening if you uh got any questions for Neil just because I don't know how long he'll be around. Just be sure to throw them on.
Okay guys, and we got the stream labs up right now which is better moneywise for us. Okay. it. Um, we do have to talk about monitor and how it got there. So, the ship's coming from New York. It's coming from New York City and it's coming down the coastline. And let's just be frank, it has like a 6-in freeboard.
And so, a unless the water is calm, it's not going to be pretty to be on that ship. It's being towed down the coastline to Hampton Roads. So, it's not even steaming under its own power. It's being towed there. And of course on its way down it runs into a massive storm and the ship almost sinks on its way down. Um it almost gets to the point where like if you read some of the um the diary entries and journal entries from some of the officers on board like um the pay master on board, this guy named Kefir, they literally say like we were debating whether or not to abandon ship on the journey down. So like the ship almost didn't make it at all. Um thankfully it did. When it gets to Hampton Roads, it it steams to the side of USS Minnesota. So, like that night overnight, the the captain of Minnesota was having his crew like throw cannons off the side of the ship, dump all their food off the side of the ship. They're trying to lighten the ship so it can no longer be a ground overnight and so that it can um maneuver and join in the battle the next day. The problem is that uh the next high tide in Norfolk, Virginia, where they expect they'll be able to do that is like noon the next day. And so they're just not going to be able to get Minnesota fixed. And that's actually what Monitor's orders are. Um its orders are on March 9th, protect USS Minnesota so Virginia doesn't destroy it. That's actually what its standing orders are for that day. Um but like when monitor shows up, some of the sailors are on the other ships are like, "What is that thing? We don't even know what that is. You know, people knew Monitor was being built, but like they just saw Virginia destroy some really big ships and then this little floating box with two cannons in it shows up and you know, not everybody has confidence in it. You know, it barely survived the trip. It's very lightly armed perhaps, you know, two cannons versus Virginia's 10. So, like it's very much an in-doubt situation as to whether or not it's going to be up to the task in many people's minds.
>> Yeah. When you uh when you said that about them not knowing what it looks like and they've heard about being built, they've never seen this thing before. Uh I I I think if I was doing like work on this, I would love to just read what how the soul how the sailors and soldiers on the shore as well describe what they're seeing. Um, but that was also sort of reminded me of that movie line from Bladeunner >> when he's like beginning of the movie he's doing the Vo comp test on um >> on Leon and he's like talking about a turtle and Leon goes like I've never seen a turtle. I know what you mean.
>> It's like they've got those medieval drawings of like people in Europe drawing like a rhinoceros but they've never seen one so it looks terrible or something like like there's a lot on the internet lately.
>> Oh yeah. One of one of them I'm thinking of too is um sharks because you know the pressure of the water ocean keeps a shark looking like what we think of as a shark. But I mean if you u so [clears throat] if you look at old illustrations of sharks, you know, before we really had good underwater photography and even just equipment to go down there, the the the the drawings make them look like sluggish, monstrous almost. And I say sluggish, there was a belief before the New Jersey shark attacks of 1916 that that sharks were actually slow and almost like I don't want to say docile, but you know, just an animal not really to be taken much mind of. And then beyond that, um if you go to the Aquarium of the Americas here in New Orleans, I don't know if I haven't been in a while they have it up, but they they had these like giant shark reconstructions, but they were based on older models. So it's like the great white shark. Its belly is sagging. It has like a double chin. It looks like a great white shark who's just been living on nacho cheese nachos and cheese for for years or something, you know. I mean, it looks like it looks like a really out ofshaped shark. And, you know, it's not really I mean, God, they didn't really film what a great white looked like underwater, I believe, until Blue Water, White Death, which is a really good movie.
>> Great. Great aquarium, by the way. You know, one of the best.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah, good aquarium.
I just went to the Georgia aquarium. I was mentioning the last stream and uh I got to see whale shark and tiger shark.
I never thought I'd see I never thought I'd see a 10 foot tiger shark in my life, but I did.
>> Yeah. Anyways, but yeah. No, so it's um I just have to imagine like how they're going to even describe this thing.
>> Yeah, the most common description is a cheese box on a raft. And that's the one that a lot of people say. Um that's the one that makes the books a lot.
>> Um Yes. But you're right, like seeing ironclads for the first time, it it's weird. Um I'm more familiar with how they described uh Manasses in New Orleans because, you know, I've got that book coming out later on this year. Um they called that one a whale. They called it a a humbug, a thingamajig. Um >> thingamajig. I've heard that in ages, >> you know, like they like they were just like, I don't know what to call this thing. So like it's very common that they would just come up with the most obscure words that are just generic adjectives because they don't know how to describe it sometimes. Another one too just to mention uh you know we're talking about like naval artillery of course is heavier because you can just put a a heavier gun on the on the waves you know and um you know the uh the the gunboats in the uh in the on the river campaigns like say like at at Shiloh right the uh Confederates they're describing gunboat fire as like thunder like shafts of thunder or lightning then you realize that these guys have not really have also not heard anything this loud in their lives. es that wasn't like a storm.
>> Yeah. And the Shiloh gunboats were lightly armed and that's small artillery. So like you know what an army field artillery gun is what six pounder a 12 pounder. The the guns at Charlotte were about 32 pounders. That's your kind of standard number for antibellum artillery cannons. 30. You had you had some siege guns that were about 32 pounds for the advant. But >> most of the stuff at Shiloh is going to be six pounds, >> right?
>> Confederate side and even a lot of six pounders in the Union side more than you'd think. And um and you got some 12 pounders, you know, but like I mean for field service, I don't think it tops I think it tops out at 24 pounds for the for the >> AR. That's like >> and when I hear field when I hear a 24 pounder described I like usually that's we had to send for that like it's not a it's not readily available. It's like we had to go find one of those things cuz they're so heavy, you know. Compare that to you the the the monitor's got 11in dorin guns which like >> holy hell >> you can't compare an 11 in versus but like like a 3-in ordinance rifle versus an 11 in dorin cannon like that's the comparison that we're talking about here for for bore. Um you know it's a whole different ball game. Naval artillery is just it's a whole different ball game compared to the milit to the army at that time.
Right.
>> Yeah. So, um, uh, so, okay. So, we've got Mantra there. Uh, we got anything else to go over before the next fight?
>> No, no, no. We can dive into it. Fine.
>> All right, man. So, uh, so, okay. All right. So, here we go. Uh, um, here we go. The, uh, as they say, they said, as they said in the Hulk Hogan, um, movie, uh, no holds barred, no holds barred.
We're now in the battle of the tough guys. Geez. Um, >> round two. Ding.
>> Round two. Be Yeah, I know, right?
That's funny. Um, >> you know, Virginia gets underway in the morning. It heads toward Minnesota to go finish the job from the previous day and then keep attacking, blockading ships after that. And essentially, as as it's heading towards Minnesota, Monitor kind of comes around from the other side of Minnesota and maneuvers in front to take place in in in in the way. And everybody on Virginia is kind of like, well, what's that thing? And they know monitor exists and they kind of realize very quickly what's going on. And everybody just starts shooting at each other. Um, they close the distance. It becomes a melee.
They're they're basically steaming in circles around each other. Um, Virginia tries to ram monitor. It actually does ram monitor, but it's a glancing blow.
um Virginia's crew, you know, KageBone actually orders them to um prepare to board monitor. They try to board the ship and and bring it up and uh they bring up the Marines and some of the soldiers that were manning the cannons on Virginia because they didn't have enough sailors and they were going to go try and jump on monitor and like take it over and um take it out like that through a boarding action. They they try to do that a couple of times. That doesn't work out. and they're just constantly shooting at each other for a for several hours, you know, and the melee continues for for several hours like that. Um, in that process, there's a lot of confusion obviously. Uh, people are the ships are both suffering some damage in different respects, though none of it's too serious. Um the game changer for this is that at one point um Virginia says like they're shooting at the turret and the turret isn't taking any damage and so they start trying to target the pilot house on monitor instead because there's actually a little box at the front of the ship where the the the captain the the helmsman and the pilot are maneuvering from. Um future monitors the pilot house is going to be on top of the turret but not not yet. Um, we're meanwhile in monitor the uh the ship the turret they're trying to maneuver the turret itself and like the engine is getting seized up because like that big storm there's a lot of saltwater corrosion happening and so they're not really getting good movement of the turret and essentially they're just shooting on the fly and they just keep the turret rotating continuously and they're just shooting as they pass.
They're like, "Okay, well, we just wait for the turret to rotate and okay, there's monitor. Shoot quick." You know, there's Virginia. Shoot before it's too late.
>> And um they're just kind of trying to shoot on the fly. It's really ad hoc.
>> Um Virginia targets that pilot house on Monitor and they they land a blow and that blow actually blinds the captain of USS Monitor. His name is um John Weren [clears throat] and he's a whole different character on his own. Um he gets blinded.
It's a temporary blinding. His sight will come back to some to to some extent later on. Um, and everybody's freaking out about this and his executive officer, this guy, Lieutenant Green, he's in the turret and he doesn't know that that the captain's been hit and they have to actually, you know, the pilot is like, I don't know what to do.
And they maneuver the ship to shallow water where um, Virginia can't get at it. And once they're in shallow water, they stop rotating the turret. They open up the hatch from the turret into the rest of the ship. They tell the executive officer, Green what happened.
They get him to go to the pilot house to take charge of the ship. He talks to Warden and Warden's last words to him are essentially like, you know, save the Minnesota or nothing at all kind of a thing. You know, they tell him to do your job and monitor kind of goes back to fight.
And what's weird is I I mentioned before that there's this disparity between engineer and line officers in the turret after green goes away. The senior officer in that turret is an engineer.
His name's Alvin Styrs. And he's not even an engineer assigned to the ironclad. He was one of these guys who helped build the ship in New York. And he was one just there to kind of like supervise the engine the engines on their test run down from New York. Uh but he stayed on the ship during the battle. And now he's in charge of the turret all of a sudden, even though he's not supposed to be. Um, Green maneuvers Monitor back out to go attack Virginia.
But when he does that, Virginia is retreating. Um, and Virginia is retreating because Monitor retreated already into that shallow water. And they said, "Oh, the ship must be disabled and is sinking. We they declared victory." And then they said, "All right, let's go And so both ships kind of think the other side is retreating even though neither side needed to retreat to to some extent. And so both sides sort of claim victory in this battle um in that regards. Um so ve very few casualties on Virginia and on Monitor but interestingly enough the captains of both ships were wounded in in their fights. Um Buchanan on the first day and Warden on the second day.
So there's a little weird uh factoid for you. Um Warden, he actually he just had his very first biography ever. It came out last year. Um one of his ancestors, Robert Warden, and then uh John Corstein, who runs the USS Monitor Center at the Marit the Maritime the Mariners Museum in uh Newport News. They they co-wrote that. Um really good biography, by the way. Um, and he ends up inventing founding the US Naval Institute after the war, you know, a couple decades later. Um, so >> yeah, you said Warden's a character all of his own. Do you want just say a little bit more about him?
>> Yeah, I'll give you one anecdote about that guy. Um, it's what happened to him on April 12th, 1861.
his order. He he was ordered to go from Washington DC to Pensacola, Florida to deliver dispatches to Fort Pickins in Pensacola, Florida. He shows up on April 12th, 1861. His dispatches are protect the fort at all costs if the enemy attacks sort of a thing.
It's the same time Fort Sumpter is being attacked. He delivers the notes and he actually gets on a train to head back to Washington DC. and he's not wearing a uniform. He's just like in civilian clothes. He gets arrested in Alabama on his way up sort of a thing and um on his way back to to to loyal territory. And he spends like the rest of 1861 in a Confederate jail, not in a prisoner of war camp, in a jail cuz they're not sure what to do with this guy, you know. Is he a prisoner? Well, we captured him before we declared war essentially. Uh is he a spy? Well, he was delivering dispatches and, you know, he had orders.
So, they're not sure what to do with this guy. And so, he very much uh is in this gray area and because of that, he becomes very um celebrated in naval circles for being one of the first heroes of the war. He's actually the very first prisoner of war in the Civil War period. Um but the prison time made him very sick and so while he was commanding monitor, you know, he was always in bad health to an extent.
All right. Um any um uh much like the other battle as well? Well, I guess like what are the reactions uh the I guess the overall reactions of both sides. I mean beyond like ship to ship.
>> Yeah. So um >> yeah.
>> So [clears throat] the Confederates they're not quite sure what to think about monitor. Um they Virginia gets back to the Gossport Navyyard. They immediately put it into a dry dock. It's already taken out of action because as because they get to do extensive repairs. Monitor stays on scene. Um the assistant secretary of the Navy, Gustavas Fox for the United States is literally there present on at Fort Monroe watching the battle and he's the one telegraphing Lincoln, hey, we stopped them. You know, um, you know, we the US declares this as a victory because what was the goal of USS Monitor? Save USS Minnesota. Well, they did. What was the goal of Virginia that day? Sink USS Minnesota. Well, they didn't. So, there's some argument over, well, was the battle inconclusive.
You know, if you go by what the objectives were, you could make a claim that the US won the battle. Um, mainly because the blockade still exists and that was the Confederacy's goal was to destroy the blockade.
But there's one more big element to this and it's both sides their artillery was not as good as it could have been that day. When the US Navy was using USS Monitor, they were like I said, they were using those giant dorren guns, right? They had specific orders to only use half charges on the on the artillery. They only fired with half the gunpowder for each shell. Um, and one reason for that was they were worried about the enclosed space of uh the turret issues happening with that. Then a gun would burst. Um, and you know, John Erikson, there's actually some history of guns that he designs bursting. So like people will have this subconscious worry about him with that.
Uh, Virginia, they actually had armor-piercing shells.
They were ready to go. They had them in a stockpile. They didn't load them on the ship during the for the battle because they were like, "Well, we're not going to see an enemy ironclad, so leave all the armor-piercing shells at home."
>> And so, they were in the battle using not armor-piercing shells that already existed. So there's a whole lot of like stupidity on both sides could have inflicted more damage if they would have had their act a little bit more together, but um alas.
>> Wow, that is um I got to say that I didn't know they had armor piercing shells. Oh wow. Damn.
>> Yeah. It's [laughter] it's it's just a shell with like a bolt tip and that bolt tip concentrates all the kinetic energy into like you know one square inch versus a square foot and that causes the um it to pierce through the armor plating you know better and then that creates like so that when the shell actually explodes uh you know kind of like like a what um an AP round used on modern battle tanks today.
>> Huh? Man, that's still like uh I I didn't know that and that's pretty appalling for them.
>> Yeah. No, like talk about the what ifs.
Like that's the big what if is like would they if they would have loaded 20 of those things, 20 shells, that could have been the game changer.
>> Wow. Okay.
>> Who knows?
>> So, uh you got any uh got any questions on your side, Derek? I can't think of anything at the moment, but I mean, yeah, the armor piercing shells not being employed is talk about a missed opportunity.
>> And I guess the thing is is that uh do we want to move on to what the operations are like afterwards? Because I know Virginia's still around. It still does some stuff, right?
>> Yeah. Um, you know, in April and in in early May, they're looking for a rematch. The Confederates are actively seeking a rematch against Monitor.
Virginia gets repaired. They load the armor-piercing shells onto the ship. And Virginia several times, it's not even once, it's several times, goes out into Hampton Roads and steams in circles and essentially is like, you know, come at me, bro. Let's go. And Monitor never rises to the challenge. They always keep it back. Um, and the whole point was, what's the goal for Monitor? Help maintain the blockade. If Virginia's not attacking the blockade, then what's the point? You like there's no let it go waste some coal. It doesn't matter. It's not interfering with operations. Um and so Virginia all these times it tries to go out and challenge Monitor. Monitor never takes up the challenge because they essentially say, "Well, we don't need to, you know, come attack the coastline, come attack the peninsula, come attack the blockaders, and we'll interfere." But they had orders to not interfere unless uh so there is no rematch. Even though the Confederates were desperately seeking that rematch because, you know, armor-piercing shells, they were they they were hoping that would be their lynch pin um sort of thing. And what's weird to me is later in the war, the Confederates actually make plans to on how to counter these ironclad turrets. They I think in Charleston in ' 63, they had special teams of sailors trained to jump on the turreted ships and jam wedges into the turret to so they couldn't rotate and then throw blankets over the turret so that they couldn't maneuver and they were blinded and then, you know, basically use Molotov cocktails on the turret to destroy the people inside and then no more turret, right? So, uh, the Confederates learned their their lesson.
and they tried to implement counters um just as the US learned their lesson and tried to build better turreted monitor ships later on in the war. So there's a lot going on there. But um yeah, there there's this attempt to try to have another rematch and that just doesn't materialize. Um and then in May, you know, Norfolk, Virginia gets captured essentially because Lincoln is kind of like in Hampton Roads inspecting things cuz you know, he's trying to get Mlen to do things. He's trying to see what happened with Hampton Roads and all that. And um at one point he's just like, "Well, there's a beach right over there. How come we don't like capture that city?"
And you know, nobody wants to do anything. And he kind of just like says, "Well, why don't we try to do that?"
"Well, why don't we try to do that?" and the US Army and the US Navy actually coordinate a little bit because Lincoln essentially stiff arms them and um they capture Norfolk Virginia in May which then forces the capture of Portsouth Virginia just to the south of it which is where the Gosport Navyyard is. So now Virginia the Ironclad has no home and they make this effort to try to save it uh by getting it to go up the James River but it can't get over the bar of the James River because it has too much draft. It's too deep in the water. So, they're throwing stuff over the side of the ship. They're trying to lighten the ship. They get it just light enough, just just just shallow enough where it can get into the James River and escape.
But then the pilot of the ship says, "Well, I don't think it can happen. I think it's still not enough." Now, keep in mind the iron plating is no longer covering the entire side of the ship because the ship has been lightened so much that like now there's exposed wooden hole and so, you know, the pilots kind of refuse to move the ship anymore and they just blow the ship up to prevent it from being captured by the US Navy cuz it can't fight anymore. It's exposed at that point uh with it with the wood kind of as they tried to lighten the ship. And so, um, that all happens in early May 62. I think the ship blows up on May 11th, 1862.
Um, but the other ship that was being built at Gosport, the other ironclad, CSS Richmond, does make it up the James River to Richmond and then becomes the first core Ironclad of the James River Squadron. And they end up building three functioning ironclads, um, Richmond, Virginia number two, and Fredericksburg. and they build and they're building CSS Texas when the war ends. Um, or CSS Texas gets mysteriously built and then escapes the blockade at the end of the war if you believe Clive Kustler's Sahara novel that came into that movie or something like that.
>> I mean, >> oh yeah, that I hear that's a really really bad movie.
>> [laughter] >> It's a It's one of those popcorn movies where if you know what you're getting into, it's not the worst thing. But >> I knew this there's this this guy I was old friends with and he just like I I he he consider it like the the epitome of everything that was wrong with America at the time. [laughter] And he's not known for that. He's not not a person known even since then for those kind of rhetorical flourishes.
[laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, surely it couldn't have been as embarrassing as the recent UFC event.
>> Well, yeah, I saw a little bit about that, but uh uh which is pretty embarrassing. Oh, let's see. Um so, sorry, one second. So, we wanted to also do the attack the uh the attack that goes up the river to Drury's Bluffs. So, you good for that one?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Virginia gets blown up. What? May 11th. I said jury's bluff is May 15th. Like yeah, it's all the same activity. It's all the same. There's no pause. It's um Virginia gets destroyed, Gosport falls into US hands, and immediately, you know, the US naval forces in Hampton Roads are like, "Okay, send some ships up the James River. If we can rush some to the James River and get to Richmond, we can bombard it and hold it hostage." And keep in mind, May 15th is when that they try to do that.
You know, Farragate just ran past the forts at New Orleans, April 24th. It's a not even a month. So, like running past forts and getting to capture a city is not theoretically unheard of. I mean, there's a bigger army in Richmond. So, like I don't know why they would think that would work, but like their hope is to try to get to Richmond and force an issue to happen. Maybe force Mlen to take a little bit more activity all of a sudden. to cause a change. They send several warships up the James River.
There's uh USS Monitor is there. It tries to go up to James River to attack.
Um there's uh USS Galena, which is another ironclad warship that goes there. There's there's a third Ironclad.
I'm trying to remember the name of it. I don't remember the name.
>> I got the name here. Let me see. Uh Nagtucket. Nag.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Not Yeah, that one. I've never even heard of this one.
>> You never even heard of it?
What? The Nagatuck? No, I've never I've heard the Galena and the Monitor, but this one's new.
>> Yeah, I know.
Nagath, I think is what it is. Yeah, >> Nagat talk. Okay. So, what is the deal with the Galena? Because wasn't it a controversial design or something? Like they um like a lot of people I mean a lot of people looked at and said like is this actually going to work?
>> Yeah. So Galena is a So when when the US government decided to build ironclads, they actually opened up an advertisement in the newspaper saying people send us your ironclad designs. Um three designs were selected by the US government. One was Monitor with um John Ericson. One was the ship that became USS New Iron Sides and one was uh the ship Galena.
Um, and Galena, it's kind of weird. It's actually, you know, designed by Samuel Puk, the same dude who built uh or maybe not Puk, but it's designed by one of these naval architects that um other people were also thinking about using for other ship designs at the same time.
>> We designed the ones like USS Cincinnati, like the Riverfleet stuff, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm I'm actually I'm more I'm more up to speed on the on the river fleet than the uh than these guys.
But anyway, [laughter] go ahead.
>> Like the ship it's it's the design is just a little bit weird. The iron is not very irony, you could say. Like there's just not as much um you know, it's got three inches of >> and it's not really like full iron plating compared to like the same type of quality that monitor would have. Um, and so it like Galena takes a lot of damage. There's there's a very famous picture of Galena um after the Battle of Drury's Bluff where like you could literally see Confederate shells sticking out the side of the hole and you could see the holes in the hole from it. Um, and uh it just wasn't as good of an ironclad uh to an extent. And uh what's interesting is that by the end of the war they they removed the iron from it. like they just don't like we're not going to keep it as an ironclad anymore.
Um, and they just make it a gunboat essentially later on. So, it's just not as effective. And that's that's the whole question of like they're trying to figure out what ironclads are. They're trying to figure out what works and doesn't work. And let's just say they made Galina to see if it would work and it did not work very well.
>> Looks like with the later design, they just uh, you know, changed the rigging and put on some traditional >> mast.
Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Well, one thing Well, the question about them going up the James because I know May 15th they're going to engage Jury's Bluff. Jury's Bluff turns him back.
Galena takes heavy damage.
>> Yeah.
>> Like you're saying the I mean I I actually never seen that photo. I definitely need to check that one out.
But the with the shells in it. Um >> it's um if if you go to Galena's Wikipedia page, it's down in the jewelry bluff section. It's it's in there.
>> Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. I'm see I see Oh, yep. There it is. I see it now. I see it now. And actually I have seen this photograph not knowing that it was that I could see the damage on the photograph but >> you know that I've just seen it like in in books before. Okay. So >> one thing about this two questions then one is what is the state of the of Confederate torpedoes at this point? You know naval mines and what are the obstructions in the James River like at this time? Because you look at the stuff for Bermuda Hundred campaign. Uh the the fleets really are not going I mean the the Union Navy understand is is holding their ships back and then they and then they took they lost three light vessels in a matter of days as well which encouraged that too. But I know by the time by that time Confederate torpedo technology is very advanced. They blew up one of the one of uh Samuel Lee's ships that way and the obstructions in the James are pretty int are pretty extensive. So what are they like at this point?
>> Yeah. So, um, the torpedo stuff, the underwater sea mine issue is not as much of an issue yet. They're still in the trying to figure it out 100% phase. Like by by later on in 1862, they're all over the place. Um, but they're not necessarily in place and being actively used, especially on the James River at that point. But the James River, they do have obstructions in the James River. They're sinking ships, older Hulks, they're sinking debris, they're putting in pilings, all that sort of stuff. Um, and the same as what they did at New Orleans. They're trying to connect all this debris with chains so that ships going up river, you know, get fouled in these chains and they have to take time to stop. And um, all that debris was kind of put in place right at Drury's Bluff where a couple of Confederate batteries were set up. Um, and the interesting part is those those batteries are in part they're manned by the the crew of Virginia, the Ironclad.
Like they literally take the Ironclad's flag and put it over the fort during the when they're c when they're bombarding the US fleet. And they're kind of seeing it as their payback time of like, you know, we lost our ship, but you lost the battle to Cake Richmond. Uh, so like we win still, you know, is a point of trying to save their pride uh in some respects. So, it's kind of weird stuff, but um there's there's debris. There are um obstructions just like they used on the Mississippi River, just like they're going to use in other places around the same time um to try to stop the US advance. And uh combine all that with a Confederate artillery and you've got a Confederate victory on the river that stops the US advance and damage is essentially every US ship that tries to launch be part of the attack.
How how much damage does monitor take?
>> Uh, it takes some, but it's not like a it's not as much damage as Galena takes.
It's it's um significantly less. Monitor doesn't take as much as the other ships do um in that it's not necessarily disabled. Um but monitor since it's so small, the guns can't even hit Drury's Bluff. like they can't raise them high enough um elevate the the barrels high enough because the turret is to um confined in some ways and so like monitors there shoots a couple of guns doesn't really do much like it can't accomplish anything uh with that. So that and that brings up another thing of like you know you're fighting ships they're on the water line they're at it's level it's a level bombardment versus you know land geography is 3D >> which is which is what I mean Boragard is going to use at Fort Sumpter I mean that's what he says that that when they when they defeat Dupont's attempt and one thing I was thinking about is that you know like you said New Orleans had just fallen this in everybody's mind and then Drury's Bluff were able to hold this back of course it's a bluff there's no bluffs around for Jackson and Fort St. Philip are not on >> block. There's no >> nowhere.
>> The other one I'm thinking about too is Fort Henry versus Fort Donaldelsson.
>> Now, you know, Fort Henry, of course, there's a lot of controversies about where it was cited. It seems a big reason why it was cited where it was was because you could fire down the Tennessee River.
>> Yeah. So, it's it's it's line of sight is is a major issue and that's one of the iss like you like you're alluding to like the the position is just a bad spot and when the Mississippi River floods which it does every year especially in the spring um with the the you know the annual freshest of snows melt the fort's flooded and like it's half flooded just because of that. So, um, but but the re one of the reasons, you're right, is location is not just about is the fort high enough. It's also, >> you know, it could be as high as you want, but if it doesn't have a clear line of fire, there's no point.
>> Yeah. And the other one too is that compare that to compare Fort Henry, which like, you know, gets flooded, the Tennessee rises, it had a good line of fire, but it's not around a bluff. They compare it to Fort Donaldson. And because Fort Henry fell so quickly, the Confederates are thinking, "Fort Donaldson's toast. It's over."
>> And then the Federal Fleet shows up and they beat them back and and damage. And uh the what's the line? One of the Confederates at Fort Donaldson as they're firing back yells at the federal fleet, "You are not at Fort Henry."
>> Yeah. I mean, Fort Donaldelsson is really tough on the the the the US Ironclads there. um the guy in charge of the ironclads there, he actually writes a note saying like, "I will never be caught unaware like that again." Um that's that's um flag officer foot.
Andrew Foot writes that. But then he has problems cuz so many of his ships are disabled and he's literally taking crew members from some of the disabled ships and putting them on the other ships to augment the crews of the other um ironclads as they go up and down the river sort sort of a thing. Um, but what's what's weird to me is um at Fort Donaldelsson, I think it's Fort Donaldelsson, some of the army officers in the fort, while they're in a prison camp after they surrender, they actually write notes to the Confederate government saying, "These are the weaknesses of these ironclads.
This is where you can defeat them. This is what happens." And the notes kind of, they don't ever really show up cuz obviously like the US is reading the mail. Um, but like that's that's kind of an interesting point of ironclads have weaknesses. They they saw these weaknesses. You know, plunging fire can take out the top deck of an ironclad, which might not be as protected. And the Confederates recognized that very quickly and tried to spread the word on that. Uh, they just couldn't spread it as fast as they wanted because hard to write about the enemy when you're in the enemy's prison camp.
>> Yeah. I found some two fun quotes about the engagement at Fort at Drury's Bluff.
Mhm.
>> Uh so the monitor's pilot apparently heard a rebel sharpshooter uh because you know Confederates have sharpshooters during the engagement because it's it's a fairly narrow river.
Uh tell the captain that is not the way to Richmond.
>> And uh Rogers, the commander of the of the Federal uh fleet at Jury's Bluff remarked about Elena. He said, "We demonstrated that she was not shockproof.
>> [laughter] >> concept. The ship doesn't work, you know, like but but that that's but that's that takes the whole science into it, right? Like if you're a scientist doing an experiment that fails is still doing science because now you know that doesn't work.
>> Yes.
>> From an engineering perspective, you know, we tested that design, it doesn't work.
>> Like >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like I mean, you know, just off the top of my head, I'm thinking of World War II >> with uh amphibious landing experience gained from Dupraid and I'd say more importantly, Tarwa.
>> Yeah. No, you're I mean, it's true and that's hard to say because like >> those journeys cost lives and cost money and that's wasted resources, but like how else do you build better equipment or learn better doctrine unless you learn from the mistakes? So like that's part of war unfortunately.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're talking I mean, God, think of another one like this which is even which is also horrifying is um because I'm really big on the Imperial Japanese Navy and you look at what they do to make their carriers less flammable after Midway.
>> No, it's true. Yeah.
>> But but then people go like, well, why the Japanese carriers like why were they stocking them with that much gasoline?
Well, because they were doing such long range roaming operations.
>> The Pacific Ocean is big.
>> Massive. Massive. But also keeping in mind too, Kido Boutai in those first six months of the Pacific War is going all over the place.
>> Yeah. I mean, they they go to from Pearl Harbor to son and then back to Midway.
Like it's it's it's incredible the amount of distance they covered. But it's a good point of like different navies are armoring their aircraft carriers and protecting them in different ways. You know, the British have the armored flight decks and the Americans don't have an armored flight deck and it costs us in lives when kamicazis hit the flight decks of some of these smaller carriers.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's just this it's Yeah. Like you said, it's a horrible thing to say because the lives at stake, but uh it just there there is sadly no other way really to learn than to field test, you know, unless you're doing something absolutely ridiculous, you know. I mean, and it's hard because like like like we' alluded to before, they're doing this ironclad stuff all on the fly. Like it's all being tested.
It's not like they had 10 years before the war to build ironclads and then they had figured it out already. You know, it's >> Yes.
>> They're just on the fly trying to see what sticks to the wall as they come up with different designs. And that's why, you know, the puke turtles look completely different than what you're going to see elsewhere and why monitor looks so different. And you know, it's just that's just the way that it is.
Another one too I was thinking of too is the uh you know the uh the debacle of the construction of CSS Louisiana.
>> Um yeah and it its engines aren't strong enough to even have the ship be able to do what they want it to do. It ends up being a floating battery on Fort St. Phillip.
>> Yeah. And they don't even they don't even get the engines installed until like April 26th, I think.
>> Wow.
>> Finally actually installed and then they're like, "Okay, we're ready to fight." And then the forts surrender.
They don't they don't even it's a fiasco.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, the u um I [clears throat] did want to mention this as well is that of course there's a panic in Richmond because Mlen is advancing towards is advancing towards Richmond. Um and I mean well well I mean like what we said in the last stream all the reason that Mlen's advance is not quite as speedy is because uh there's a lot of rain going on in the American South at this time. I mean, it is rainy and muddy all over the place. Uh, so the thing about Jury's Bluff, I wonder too is what if if the Navy gets up to Richmond.
>> Uh, that's not good. But then what else can they do? It it is a question. Uh, but you know, the the Chikah River is going to flood, which leads, of course, the Battle of Seven Pines. But in the midst of all this, I did find out a few little fun things to throw out to people. So, uh, there's a panic enrichment throughout this period. The city's population doubles. So it reaches by some estimates 80,000 people.
>> And the residents were saying aside tobacco to use it as currency to deal with Union occupation forces.
>> Whoa.
>> Around the same time, of course, Lee is going to meet with Jefferson Davis to discuss the uh uh Jefferson to discuss what would happen if the Confederate capital had to be evacuated.
And you know, Lee says they'll defend on the Stauntton River about 100 miles to the southwest.
>> But famously, Lee started to cry and yelled, "But Richmond must not be given up. It shall not be given up."
Regardless of that, with uh even though the Jewish Bluff thing is a is a welcome is a welcome news, of course, there is still of course panic and worry in Richmond. And as I mentioned also to everybody in the last stream, at this point of the war, 18 in 1862, the Confederates have lost just about every battle they're involved in. The only good news they're getting is from the Valley and from Charleston with Secessionville. Otherwise, it's defeat on top of defeat at this point.
>> Yeah. And and Charleston and Secession and Secessionville and the Valley are literal sideshows that don't actually matter. Like, >> yeah. Well, Secessionville, that's definitely a sideeshow. In the case of the Valley, it's a sideshow the Union falls for, [laughter] >> right? Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah, you're right. But like everywhere else it's defeat. Like Shiloh, defeat. Henry Donaldson defeat. New Orleans defeat.
Hampton Roads.
>> They've like the battle is inconclusive.
Okay. But four weeks later, who's in charge of Hampton Roads? The United States. You know, and then and now Richmond's under siege essentially >> as Mlen finally gets closer. So like you're right. the the Confederates in Richmond, they don't have cause for celebration just because Drury's bluff happened. It's it's a breathing, it's a resppite, but it's not one that's going to stop anything. Um, and and then the US Navy stays actively involved in the peninsula, right? I mean, they're bombarding things ships. They're bombarding Confederates at Malvin Hill.
They're supply they're keeping the supply lines open. I mean, I'm sure you guys have already kind of talked about some of that, but like it just keeps >> No, not quite yet. We uh we stopped at Seven Pines. for >> and then we have we have you for the naval stuff. Then >> Chris comes on next week to do Valley and then Doug does seven days with us in a few weeks.
>> That's good.
>> Yeah, we're just we're just doing the Eastern theater in order over here.
>> It's fine. You got to take care of it, right?
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. No, it's it's a it's fun, man.
It's also, you know, I I I write so much about Shiloh and >> and uh Petersburg that, you know, it's so I'm like, "Oh, wow. 1862 Battles in Virginia. I haven't really read about these in a while. So, it's been it's it's fun, you know. [laughter] >> I don't know. I like >> I like how I like how the Navy stuff is very like >> there's a lot of big picture in a lot of that. Um big strategy and new technology and integration with the army like it's it's just a whole different perspective of looking at things in some ways and I think that's pretty cool, >> you know. Yeah. and also mention that too about the ironclad technology and put it in perspective because we're talking about aircraft carriers and how they had to learn stuff but >> you know on their on their side of the ledger I mean they did have a good what 20 25 years to test out things with carriers I mean it's >> you know these ironclads are >> are they're they're not just exper they're experimenting and doing combat in a way that you know the British, Japanese and Americans were able to have some kind of experience going into it, >> you know.
>> Yeah. I mean, like, but but like like the sea trials for both Monitor and Virginia were >> fitting to the battle.
>> Yeah. God, that's so crazy, man. Also, >> do we know of anything? Actually, that's a good question. Do we know anything comparable in naval warfare that is where there's there's something like the equivalent of sea trial going into battle? Because I'm thinking about most new naval technology. There's at least that I can think of. There is either it's more of even it's even it's more evolutionary you could make that case with dreadnot [clears throat] >> or but even then dreadnots's what 1905 1906 >> right >> you got about 10 years before that happens before before you know they're going to you have the first world war happen I'm trying to think if there's one where it's just like >> it's a new technology we've not been able to test it in peace time >> I think maybe the closest thing would be like around turn of the century with the very small torpedo boats that are being like the motorized torpedo boats that get a little bit bigger and then turn into destroyers, but like they're used on a a much smaller scale. Um, not really done very much. Uh, >> very limited combat stuff because like the Spanish American War is so small and there's just not a lot going on.
>> But yeah, but and also didn't weren't weren't there torpedo boats at Toshima?
>> Oh man, you might be right about that.
Yeah, I might just be thinking a US- centric uh >> the Japanese might think the Russians would have taken them on that, you know, global tour though, >> right? Yeah.
>> No, no, they would not. No, they would.
The global tour.
>> Yeah. Like um one of the most impressive feats of seamans only to end up that way, right?
>> But that's but this brings up a really good point though of um navies are expensive. They cost money. You know, like why was the British in debt after the seven years war? It's because they sent fleets of ships around the world to take the Philippines and Cuba and like, you know, reinforce the the the British North America kind of thing. Ships cost money and so it takes decades to build them, right? Like if we wanted to jumpstart the US military right now and double its size, you could enlist a whole bunch of people into the army right away and then say, "Okay, we got an army. Get them some guns."
It would take a decade to build the ships for for an expanded navy. A decade or more.
>> Yeah. I mean, like they say, you know, >> naval strategies, >> all those ships that were built in World War II, the the the first big wave of reinforcement ships, all those escort carriers and everything um that came online in 43. I mean, those were ordered in 39.
>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, so like the Navy is a very it's a drawn out process. It takes a long time. The best example of what I can give you of things being tested in the field like this um where the sea trials are the real trials are the battle is kind of like the drone warfare going on in Ukraine right now.
That's the closest I can come up with.
And that's also a good example of um >> they all look different. It's all ad hoc there. But but even then, you know, UAVs have been operated by militaries for 20 years by this at this point. It's never been used extensively in direct combat.
>> That's why the drone conflict in Ukraine is I mean, it's reminiscent to me of another one of my topics of a lot of interest, World War I aircraft.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Very much so.
>> Yeah. I mean, you go from like 19 1903, they barely fly 100 feet and then every six months you get a new design that just completely annihilates the previous designs and improves in every way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's that's another one to point out, too, because you know, I mean, of course, the evolution of aircraft in World War II is pretty rapid, but I mean, you know, the Measure Schmidt and Spitfire is a good enough airframe to still be serviceable in 1945. Uh, >> yeah. got World War I in the air, uh, you're obsolete very quickly. [laughter] What you're flying gets obsolete real fast.
>> I say the best planes in World War I have a shelf life of a year.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then they had ones they were using probably later than they should have, like the uh the Camel, >> right?
>> Much as much as I love that plane, um, you know, I I know I know I know it had issues and they definitely used it longer than they really should have at the end of the day. From what I >> My favorite is that um my favorite is that the uh the Royal Navy on its aircraft carriers were still using biplanes in 39.
>> Yeah. The Swordfish. [laughter] >> Yeah. Like literal biplanes still because they were just like like some of them just lasted longer and could still theoretically do the job until >> really good at low altitude and low speed.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It should be noted too. I I do think it's kind of funny about that, you know, like the uh the biplanes the Germans, Italians, and British use in World War II. Of course, they have issues and stuff, but they are like the ultimate form of the biplane as well, you know, like [laughter] >> But I mean, we're still use we're using 60-y old technology in our military today, so like it's the same.
>> Yeah, we have >> Yeah, we have uh the B-52 in service. I think that's >> what 80 not 80 but 70 something years old at this point.
>> I mean that the the M2HB the 50 caliber machine gun has been in service forever and it's still the exact same weapon as it was like World War IIish. Like not even modified in any way.
>> Do they still use that 1911 pistol?
>> No.
>> No. That's been that's been replaced.
>> And it got phased out in like the 80s I think.
>> 90s.
Such a such an iconic weapon. I I knew I mean I knew it was around for like a long time. I mean >> talking about another long live one. I mean they uh the BAR went from World War I to like the early stages of NOM.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I wouldn't even call either of those weapons outdated necessarily. They just, you know, they didn't fit the mission as well as some other things that were available.
>> Yeah. My favorite one about the BAR was uh that was Clyde Barrow's favorite gun.
Yeah. you know. But hey, real quick aside here, just just fun thing. I I did pull up the Ponobscot Bay expedition just to like, you know, determine and yes, the the fleet was mostly a Massachusetts affair, although >> it's I think it's officially Continental Navy, but it might as well be, you know, Massachusetts.
>> But this uh American squadron here has some fun names. Okay, >> ship names are the best.
>> Good. Got this. Charming Sally.
>> Nice.
>> Black Prince. This one's the best though. Tyrannocide [laughter] >> Springbird.
Um, Hector Skyrocket.
And, uh, and for all you Israel Putinham fans out there, Putinham.
>> Nice.
>> Nice.
>> But the Sean, that actually brings up a really good point about the Civil War.
And it's um, [snorts] who runs what ships is a big question mark. you know, uh, >> on the Mississippi River, you've got the river defense fleet and the US ram fleet, and they're both army vessels, but kind of you've got the navies, you've got state navies, you've got, you know, the the the Western gunboat flotilla, which is navy ships, but with army jurisdiction.
You there's a big question mark in some places of like which organization is actually operating the warships in an area. And so, you know, it's not all US Navy versus Confederate Navy in the Civil War. It's there's a whole lot of different groups and like that just adds even more confusion to the who's in charge, who has jurisdiction, who do I answer to problem.
>> Yeah. In the case of Butler with Bernard 100, he has an army, he has an army flotilla of gunboats, uh, lightly armed ones, and they they attack Fort Clifton and one of them gets sunk.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Uh and and you know, Butler specifically did that so he would have a naval component that was answerable to him that he could direct their movements.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh without having to consult with Samuel Lee.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean the Navy gets its uh payback on Butler with uh Fort Fiser one after after Fort Fiser one fails in late 64. You know, the Navy officers lit are literally saying like, "If you send a actual soldier, we will defeat defeat the fort next time."
>> Yeah. God damn it. I uh by the way, I did uh I do want to mention this real quick. I was kind of wondering because you know, Butler went into the Brew Her campaign popular then loses Jury's Bluff.
>> You know, they had the whole thing where he gets they they say he was cked up, you know.
>> Um he had a bit of his reputation get repaired a little bit by the capture of Fort Harrison. Uh what ultimately seems to doom him is his attack at Fair Oaks where he loses 1,600 men and the Confederates lose maybe a 100red to 200.
And uh that is a that that is the moment where the people around Grant say, "Okay, we got to get rid of this man.
>> I mean, Butler's a survivor. I mean, like really good politician. He's a survivor." Like >> Oh, yeah. There was a there's a there's a Thomas Nass cartoon of like Butler looking like Humpty Dumpty and it says >> u which part is what what is part butler serve? Well, the party that serves Butler.
>> Yeah.
[laughter] I mean, he's had a couple of recent biographies that focus less on his military side, but more on some of the other elements of his life. And like he's very skilled in some respects. And uh you know, yeah, >> really good politician. Like it's just the dude can't command soldiers in battle to save his life. But I mean, he never was a general, so >> like he's not a military officer. He's just a guy. did have those military he he did have those um genuine military pretensions. I mean he had he had been involved in West Point. I mean he had never went to West Point but he was invol he was the board trustees at West Point before the war. Um you know he's fast to get those troops down to Washington 1861. I mean no doubt the wants um wants military glory but is not and much like Nathaniel Banks is not >> uh temperamentally set up for that. Although in the case of Butler, I give him credit as having having certain administrative skills.
And also, you know, uh I do I've always liked Butler the tinkerer, you know, because uh like for instance, he got uh the Reququa guns.
>> Yes.
>> Which are not true machine guns, but they actually were used in the in a field battle. I mean, they were used at Battery Wagner in Port Hudson. Yeah, they were they were used in a field battle and blunt a Confederate attack and the Confederates talk about that too where they they uh they talk about these just the attacking into the battery not knowing really what they're facing and then suffering these horrendous casualties.
>> Yeah, the guns are the recoil gun is great. You know, forget the guy. That thing's the real showed up.
>> Yeah, regular guns are great, man. And I I I and I I know it's not a true machine gun, but it it's I don't know if there's a field battle where a weapon like that had been used before. I'm not talking about siege operations, >> right?
>> I'm talking like a field battle like you can make I was like, wait, is this like the first use of a kind of machine gun?
Really?
>> Well, this looks like a musical instrument.
But uh actually there's um I I think there were Chinese like ancient Chinese weapons that kind of looked like this, but of course they would fire crossbow bolts or something like that. But I mean >> the idea of having a volley gun had existed for centuries. But yeah, >> this one had a particular mechanism that allowed you to have more continuous fire. So, it could go anywhere from 175 to 225 rounds per minute depending on who was testing or whatever.
>> It's pretty impressive.
>> Um, >> talk about loading.
>> Yeah. Very, very impressive and definitely had a had a telling effect at the Battle of um Johnson's Farm, which is in >> October 13th, 1864.
But anyways, so uh do we have anything else we guys uh want to talk about before we uh get to the u uh super chats and whatnot? And uh >> I'll I'll just say one more thing about Ben Butler. Like imagine if he stayed in Louisiana somehow through 63 and then he not not he he takes Port Hudson, not Banks, and then unites with Grant and then somehow is in charge of Grant at Vixsburg and then becomes president.
Could you imagine that?
>> Uh yes, because that was the plan with Banks, >> right? And that's why I bring it up.
Could you imagine if it was Ben Butler doing it and then somehow pulling it off?
I Yeah. If Butler could have uh [laughter] [gasps] I you know, whatever criticism I got of Banks, uh Banks was definitely faster than Butler. Yeah. You know, what everyone say about him, he definitely he was he was better at taking the initiative. You know, not that you always won.
>> Who would have been a better um president, Banks or Butler?
>> That's hard, man. Uh, I'm inclined to say banks, but so much of being president also depends on like what situation you find yourself in and is is your temperament is your temperament intelligence and do your strengths play to that situation? Um, I understand Banks is also an excellent politician and like Butler, Banks changed parties several times as well. He's another political survivor. I think I think Banks would have handled reconstruction better than Butler. I think Butler would have bludgeoned his way through reconstruction.
>> Yeah. I mean, Butler could be more uh how should I say aerodite, but I notite I mean like you know like you know what I'm trying to say could be more flexible. People give him credit for but yeah I think Banks probably would have been able to handle better.
could be noted that was apparently uh what Banks was most proud about in his career was his work in Congress during reconstruction.
>> Well, there you go.
>> You know, so that was so whenever I whenever I write that Banks book when I get done with Shiloh, you know, I'll let you know how that goes. Right.
>> Yeah. It's that's right, guys. Banks are bust. Okay. [laughter] >> Jesus.
>> I don't know. I I think it's fascinating to write about somebody who like I've always found found it interesting to write about some I've always found interesting people who are you know really talented in these these certain things and incompetent at others. It just fascinates me to know and >> the one field gets them promoted way beyond their qualifications in some other unrelated field.
>> But Banks was um he was speaker of the house, right? If I >> Yes, he was. Uh he he was a he was a no nothing and then I believe he switched parties in the midst of being speaker in the house which would make him technically the first Republican speaker of the house.
>> Well, there you go.
>> You know, but yeah. Yeah, he was he was a nivist party guy. Before that, he had been a Democrat. Uh he switched back to Democrat at some point. Um >> yeah, >> you know, one thing that probably would have preaged well for him was that in Congress he got high marks from a lot of people of different political factions for his handling of Congress while being speaker of the house.
>> Wow.
>> You know, so so yeah, you do have that.
And in in the case of the thorny politics of Louisiana, I would say he maneuvered it better than Butler did during the war. But it also should be kept in mind too that Banks is one of Lincoln's favorite people and politicians.
>> Yes.
>> You know that you know like like like banks Lincoln doesn't lose faith with faith in banks until the Red River. And even then he's relatively kind about it.
He says stay in Louisiana, do the political stuff. You're good at this. I still trust you. you know, um almost kind of like uh like when a general loses who somebody likes like, oh, who was the who was the commander that Louis the 14th had who lost the battle of Raml's? I forget his name. And him and Louis the 14th were were very close friends. And Louis the 14th writes him a very kindly letter about losing and says something like at our age you know luck starts to we don't we don't we don't get lucky anymore you know [laughter] as opposed to other commanders they go like you know get the hell out of here >> like where yeah I'm thinking about the case of Lincoln and butler there's a lot of tension between the two they really don't like each other especially in the case of butler butler thinks Lincoln is an idiot >> um but that being said um anything else we have Guys, before we uh get into the other stuff to talk about, I mean the uh any questions that we might have.
>> Oh, well, I had one quick uh random question for Neil.
>> So, I'm sure you're familiar with Guns of the South, you know, Harry Turtle Dog's novel. So, how many AK-47s do you think Lee would have needed in 1864 to achieve victory?
[laughter] Any >> Well, in the book, what a 100,000 work.
Yeah.
Yeah. They're able they're able to make their kind of like I guess steampunk janky version. Right.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Because they [laughter] they like take over some random county in North Carolina and start pumping them out. And apparently no officials investigate like not Governor Vance, not the Confederate government. There's like, oh well, some weird dudes with some foreign accent. Uh I mean Vance, the governor of North Carolina.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Why would he investigate?
He's does his own thing. He's probably >> well I mean he's got his own things going on but I mean you would like if something if a whole county just kind of goes dark on you >> kind of weird is something you probably want to look into if you're governor >> but also especially in the case of Vance because he's a very active governor.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean he's very intrusive on some things but Vance strikes me as if random dudes with AK-47s showed up with giant sacks of gold he would just keep his mouth shut >> probably. I mean, he could he was definitely uh prone to a nice bribe. Um I mean, his whole his whole home guard, I mean, was basically just a big bribery scheme. It's like, "All right, so who wants to pay to be in this?"
>> He sounds very Louis like that.
>> Sounds what?
>> Very Louisianaesque in that regard.
>> He kind of was. I mean, yeah, he was he was definitely I would say I mean, I'm not an expert on North Carolina history, but from what I know of it, I would say he's got to be easily the most corrupt governor the state's had.
I'll have a few announcements at the uh at the end of the uh stream, but I want to do those now. Uh do we have any Streamlabs right now?
>> Um Streamlabs, we currently are sitting at nothing.
>> Gotcha. And super chats. I only see one.
Am I correct?
>> That's all I see too. So this one came to us from Voice of Reason >> for $1.99. Thank you, Voice of Reason.
So, he was the gentleman from last stream. He says, "USS monitor versus monitor lizard. What is the link?" And I think we talked about this earlier at the beginning of the stream, but I mean, I guess the whole thing is there's a link with the Latin word that's based on where it means to observe or something like that.
>> Yeah. I mean, monitor is is I mean, the root is to observe things. And so, like the monitor lizard observes its prey before doing things. That's kind of where the name comes from. So, um, you know, monitor, observing the Confederate movements and stopping them, the ship, and then the Confederates seeing the ship and then monitoring it and realizing the blockade is there is kind of the intent behind the choice of the name for the ship itself.
>> Yeah. So, >> also, who would win a fight? Also, the verses, who would win a fight, monitor or mon?
Something tells me the ironclad would win that. [laughter] >> I don't know, man. I don't know what happened. If I What if I stuffed a Komodo? What? What if somehow Komodo dragon just gets into the USS Mon? What happens?
>> Here you go. Here you go. Sahara 2 1 million lizards released onto the ship [laughter] >> or um you know like those those uh shorts people put out now on Epic Battles where it's called you know 100,000 of this versus a million of that.
>> I've seen some of those.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean sometimes it's a really goofy scenario. I watched one earlier today. A million gorillas versus a 100 T800 Terminators and the gorillas won, but they only had 192,000 left.
>> Wow.
[laughter] >> This is a key consideration like I mean do these Terminators have like I mean uh like what like like they do they go in the exact model? Do they have a defensive position? I mean what they just fighting out in the open like it's those stupid battles in Braveheart?
Yeah, they were fighting out in the open, but these terminators were backpedaling to give themselves more space. And in all these simulations, these guys always had infinite ammo.
>> So, >> my only question on that is, did a time machine appear in the gorillas and offer them a 100,000 AK-47s in the middle of the battle?
>> No, unfortunately, they were not offered that. But also, these gorillas were massively oversized because I mean, most gorillas, even silverbacks, are not eight or nine feet tall. So, if they were properly sized, they probably would have lost.
>> But, >> so it's all just a bunch of It's all like the big guys. Gotcha. It's like Pete Gorilla. That's what I was attacking him. Peak Gorilla. [laughter] >> No. So, um All right. Uh well, I guess uh I can just um and do the uh handful of like little announcements I had at the end, which is not really too much here, but I guess I could do is the Lee's Tigers thing that it was we were uh that Marta asked about last time.
Okay. Uh so this involves Yeah. By the way, y'all ever read Lee's Tigers by Jones?
>> I've got a copy of it over here. Yeah.
>> Yeah. He's a He was a good presenter.
>> I know Terry. He's pretty cool.
>> Yeah, I know. He's a good presenter, man. just like heard him talk and uh so anyways um there's but my favorite mcrder one is involves a guy named Ned Phelps and I've mentioned this before but here's the exact words. So uh Ned Phelps he slips away from the battalion to forage and at daybreak he comes across a farmhouse where McGrder and his staff were having breakfast. Seeing a vacant chair he pllopped down and eyed the meal. Amazed at him, McGrder leaned back in his chair and said, "Young man, are you aware of whom you're breakfasting with?" "Well, before I before I came, soldier, and I used to be particularly who I ate with, but now I don't care a damn so long as the victuals are clean." [laughter] McGrder appreciates his honesty and says, "Young man, stay where you are and have what you want." But the other one was there's a practical joke.
It says, it says here there's a practical joke where they got Billy Campbell, who's one of Drew's men. Uh, and by the way, uh, right off the top of my head, Drew, of course, was the first officer killed. What unit was he in in in Louisiana? Do you remember? Do you remember, Neil?
>> Man, I'm trying to remember.
>> It's not CP, is it?
>> Uh, I don't know.
I'll look it up after this. But anyways, so they have Billy Campbell here dressed as a girl and he strides gracefully into Mcrder's office into the arms of Ned Phelps. All right. Phelps introduced his escort to McGrder and claimed that the Nelson who was babyface was his sister.
Um was I mean was the sister of one of the other soldiers. And McGrder, according to the story, uh took the lady's hand and began entertaining Campbell with food, drink, and lively conversation.
Uh and uh so so in other words, like they uh they played a really good practical joke on Mcrder. That's what ML was asking about earlier. Okay. Anyways, so there you go. That was what was requested from last week. Uh few other things too to note. I'm still going to be raising money to try to get those uh um grant letters uh like get digital copies of those for the Shiloh book. So, if you guys want to give any money, that will be on um the um um what is it? The uh the GoFundMe, which I did for the maps for Petersburg. So, that's still active. So, anybody who wants to do that and for the maps of not maps of Shiloh because Space Be limited, but for volume one, anybody who helps out, I will uh mention their name in volume one of Shiloh. And last but not least, if anybody wants to make a little bit of money and knows that they can or knows somebody who knows how to play piano, let me know because I found this sheet music for a military march based on Shiloh.
A local pianist here is not going to do the whole thing cuz they say they're too busy. But that's New Orleans for you because uh the only way to get musicians to do anything is drugs and sex, I guess. Uh so what'll happen is is that if anybody wants to earn a little bit of money and play this piece, I'm going to upload this piece to my YouTube channel.
And it's a piece that has never been recorded before to my knowledge. I've not found any CDs or anything. So if anybody wants to do that or know somebody who can do that, please let me know. little I've heard of it. It sounds like an excellent piece. And last but not least, something from last from a few streams back. I mentioned something about a woman being attacked by a great white shark in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So, I finally found some coordinates on that. It was 500 miles away from Easter Island. So, literally this woman and the crew in I think it's 1994 are swimming out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
So, I guess it must have been real calm that day. And um her name was Heather Boswell and she lost her leg to a great white shark. And that was actually filmed.
And I've been way shocked that she survived that because you know most people lose a limb to uh one of the big four sharks or big five I guess you want to count the Mako aren't really going to be alive to tell the tale. Especially somebody who got attacked like that out really literally in the middle of the ocean. Um, and God, I don't know the exact I don't have the exact GPS coordinates on it, but I'll go ahead and check and see like how deep it is around there. Of course, of course, they're 500 miles, so they weren't that far south where like the Roaring 40s are. But anyways, so that's all I got, guys.
Thank you very much. That's just the little things I was mentioning at the end. Uh, do we have any other questions that popped up?
>> We do. Um, over on Streamlabs, we got one in from Dan Destep, the cat historian, and he wanted to know, thank you, Dan, by the way, who is the Luigi Kadorna of Navy Admirals.
Oh, that's a I know Dra just did a whole video about incompetent admirals, but I I haven't finished it yet. Naturally, the French commander Trfalar is on there because he has to be.
I don't know if he counts Luigi Luigi Kadorno necessarily.
>> Yeah. Like we can think of an admiral who just kind of bludgeoned his fleet over and over and over against it, you know, an object and kind of destroyed it.
>> Man, >> Admiral Toyota for the Imperial Japanese Navy.
>> Yeah, that's that's a decent uh that's a decent one. Um I mean I think Not as bad as Kadora comparatively just to say, but Toyota comes to mind.
>> I mean, I don't think Admiral can do 11, you know, different versions of the same battle though, just because ships can only take but so much before they go under.
>> That's true. It's tough. Um, Sean, to answer your your Charles Drew question, Arthur Berseron's Guide to Louisiana Confederate Military Unit says that he commanded First Battalion of Louisiana Infantry, which was supposed to be part of the first Louisiana Infantry Regiment, but then was only five companies or something. they got split off or something like that temporarily and they ended up as a separate battalion not to be confused with wheat's special battalion which there's a book coming out about wheat later on this year I think from LSU. Oh, that oh that'd be that'd be really interesting to say to look at also not to be confused with the first Suave battalion which is Coppins battalion either there's a lot of first Louisiana units for some reason >> there is oh there's also the first Louisiana regulars which is the one that'll be Shiloh >> first Louisiana regulars are not the first Louisiana >> yeah to address Dan's question I guess the closest thing I can think of for a Kadorna of the sea >> is I'll just go ahead and say every admiral from the first Punic War, both Roman and Carthaginian, has to be a contender just about.
>> God damn, you're right, man.
>> That's funny. That That's actually really funny.
>> And I guess there are a few from the Henistic, like uh there there weren't many guys who tried this. I can't think of a specific name, but this was in the era of fortified harbors. And I know there was at least one admiral who tried to just bludgeon his way in, and the ships were reinforced. uh to ram and hammer and take hits in that period, >> but it pretty much always failed. So, I guess there were a lot of guys who really just tried to bludgeon their way in the harbors and were bloodily repulsed.
>> It's like the uh the antithesis of the mysticles with the Greeks.
>> Exactly. Like once uh instead of the maneuvers of the Athenians, they uh just started making ships much stronger and just battering each other. Um, and it wasn't even like boarding actions necessarily. It's more just we will bludgeon each other headon in narrow waters and uh, you know, the ship with the stronger timbers will survive and we're going to burst into the harbor and then land a bunch of men on the shore.
>> I don't know. It's hard to have a naval officer do it consistently because usually they just get fired like >> Oh yeah, admirals get the admirals get fired all the time um when they screw up. It's not like and then they lose the ships. So they can't redo what they were trying to do in the first place. So a lot of times it's difficult. It's like a one-off major loss, not a continuous career of incompetence.
>> Yeah. As a general rule, it seems like navies tend to be run more on merit and less on pedigree than armies are.
Although I mean obviously pedigree still plays a huge factor, but not as extreme of a factor.
>> That's true. especially if you compare like Napoleonic Royal Navy versus Napoleonic um British Army. Um that that's probably a pretty fair statement to say, but uh even today like the US Navy will fire captains of ships on a whim. Like they will relieve them at at any moment for any any issue. Uh I've seen it done. And um part of that is like maintaining that higher standard of you're in charge so like act like it sort of an idea >> right. Uh and I guess this would be a followup for that. Um you would know this a lot better than I would but with uh Alfred the Maym I mean he rammed the ship into a number of things over the years. I mean he was not very good at steering or navigation.
How in the hell did he not get fired after all the wrecks he had?
Um, so that's that goes into the philosophy of the 19th century with ships.
Naval officers who commanded ships in the 19th century who ran ground or rammed their ship into something often did not lose their careers like they would today. Um, and that's just considered like they didn't have very good charts. It wasn't a the exact navigation like we have nowadays. um where things are much more precise. And so it was kind of a given that like yeah, if you've got a wooden ship with some sails, it'll run around at some point. Just work to get it off. Um don't lose the ship in battle while it's ground. And so um that's pretty ubiquitous in a lot of things. Like if you read some of the old um like Jack Aubrey books and stuff, like those ships run around about four times, five times a book. Um >> that's pretty normal. So, uh, that's just one factor in it. Whereas today, you know, ship runs around, captain gets fired like at 20 minutes later.
>> Yeah. I guess too with Ma with Mahan, one of his incidents was he was off the coast of South America. It was broad daylight, calm waters, only one other ship out about three miles away. They spotted immediately. And despite all the forewarning, they don't evade it because rather than both ships breaking right to avoid the collision, they don't communicate. So neither side communicates and they both go the same direction. Well, opposite directions intentionally, but in terms of uh you know, the same amount of water, they hit each other headon, >> and it was like the most preventable avoidable accident imaginable under the most embarrassing possible circumstances >> and it doesn't appear to have really dinged him very much. I mean, it hurts his confidence. Like, he apparently wrote about it like he was really embarrassed, but >> nothing really happened. Well, after he was in Latin America in charge of the ship, I mean, he left that job to go become a professor at the Naval War College and then when he got to the war college, he ended up being the president of the war college cuz the other guy left.
>> Um, so like, >> you know, he he beed himself essentially after that. Like he didn't hold another command at sea after that. Um, so in part I guess maybe he was held accountable to some extent, but it's also um, you know, he went on to bigger and better problems. Um, and there was a >> there was a Mahan bio that came out two years ago and there's another one that's coming out this year. Um, and the one this year is supposed to focus more on his family life and how it impacted him.
>> Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. Also, you know, it seemed pretty inconceivable to me, but you know, this is a guy who never really wanted to be out at sea.
And then he also wrote to his wife every time he get a command like, "Oh man, I got to go out to sea. I'm praying I run into something or screw something up.
This is going to suck."
And then, you know, he's super happy when he gets to go teach at the Naval War College. So, he's the opposite of almost every other officer ever. Um, and you know, he had been trying to avoid that sort of military professor life because that was his dad's calling in life and then ends up doing it and then really liking it, becoming far better known for it. Um, so it's a weird story in a lot of ways and I guess then there's also the debate as to >> what harm or good his you know policies did in the long run.
I mean, those policies are still in place now. Like the the US Navy and and China's Navy, you know, the the PLN are going off of Alfred the man right now.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I But we were talking about admirals getting, you know, punished and everything. Of course, the most extreme example I thought of right away was John Bing of the Royal Navy >> who got executed for his actions at Minorca during the Seven Years War.
Uh, and they got to uh, y'all read Candid by Voltaire.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's that scene where they get to England and they got the line where he goes like, "You know England. Are they as foolish there as in France?" And it says, "Talking thus, they arrived at Portsmith. The coast was lined with crowds of people whose eyes were fixed on a fine man kneeling with his eyes bandaged on the board on board one of the men of war in the harbor.
Four soldiers stood opposite to this man. Each of them fired three balls at his head with all the calmness in the world and the whole assembly went away very satisfied. "What is all this?" said Kandid. "And what demon is it that exercises empire in this country?" He then asked, "Who is that fine man who had been killed with such so much ceremony?" They answered, "He was an admiral." "And why kill this admiral? Is because he did not kill a sufficient number of men himself. He gave bow to a French admiral and has been proved that he was not near enough to him." But replied Candid, the French admiral was as far as from the English admiral.
There's no doubt of it. But in this country, it is found good from time to time to kill one admiral to encourage the others.
>> [laughter] >> Oh yeah, this this book also has the greatest description of u of uh 18th century warfare ever where he uh he's he's with the Frederick the great wannabe and he he says like he's like there was a battle and like 10,000 men died on one side 10,000 the other side and it was considered enough for all this patriotic slaughter or something.
[laughter] >> What a great book.
>> One of my favorites. We've met our quota. So our honor is satisfied.
>> Honor is satisfied. Remember it is it is in this country is good to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others.
>> Remember.
[laughter] >> All right. We got anything else?
>> Yep. We do have another one. Uh super chat from Michael R for $5. Thank you, Michael. What would the battle I assume in this case uh of Hampton Roads look like if one side had HMS Warrior or if a first rate 1860 130 gun ship of the line was at Hampton Roads against the Marramck.
Uh so that's a good question. Um so Warrior just to like give everybody a little bit of a background on like what it's supposed to be doing. So Warrior is much more heavily armed than either Monitor or Virginia. It's got like 40 cannons on it. Um the largest ones being 40 pounders, but it's only got a few of those. Um but it's got some significant It's got It's got a couple It's got 10 110 pounders. Uh as well.
The armor on Warrior is about four five in where Monitor's armor is a little bit thicker in its turret. Um but I think Virginia's armor is what 4 in thick. So, um, the difference for Warrior is it's not going to be able to maneuver in Hampton Roads. It's 26T draft, so it's even deeper than Virginia, so it's going to be even more confined and where it can be. Um, and so that would probably be its death nail is it would just get stuck on some mud somewhere. Uh, if you want to go with a very pragmatic like realistic approach is they wouldn't even send it there. Yeah, I was thinking like at best it'd have to sort of stand out and fire at maximum range to avoid running a ground.
>> Yeah. Um, could warrior defeat one of the other ironclad? Yeah, theoretically it could probably do so. Just like I mean like if you get the right shot in the right spot, Virginia could defeat Monitor or Monitor could defeat Virginia and Warrior could defeat either of them.
It all depends on luck of the shot, the aim, the powder charge, the uh the aggressiveness of the skipper on on the ships, that sort of a thing. So, it's all it could all be a close run thing depending on the specific circumstances.
But in Hampton Roads specifically, um you know, the water's not that deep even today. Like the ship would just run around and be stuck unfortunately. So, no fancy super cool battle with that one. Though, interestingly, the British had a ship >> in Hampton Roads. It showed up the day after the battle and was like documenting what was going on. So, >> so I'm guessing uh you know, the people running was a captain uh the captain of the Marramac or Virginia. I mean, >> even though he was known for being ballsy, if he sees a 130 gun ship out in deep water asking him to come play, he's probably not going out to play.
Yeah, I I would imagine that. I mean, Congress and Cumberland, they had they didn't have that many cannons, obviously. Um I mean, they still had a lot. I think one of them had what, 50 cannons, maybe. Um >> that's a good that's a good amount, though. Wait, would would Buch cannon maybe make a night attack and try to ram the ship though?
>> I think if he made a night attack, that would be the dumbest thing that you can do in Hampton Roads because your ship will just run around.
>> Got it. Okay, just All right, there we go.
52 guns.
Cumberland about 25.
But Cumberland had heavier, better, more modern artillery. Congress had antiquated antibbellum artillery, but 5050 of them. So, you know, double that.
And depends on the quality of the gun.
>> Yeah. Actually, uh that gives me a good idea, Sean. The next time you get to play a Civil War sim and you can choose any kind of tactics to for battles, um, do all night attacks for every engagement.
>> Oh [laughter] god.
>> Just make sure you're maximizing those dice rolls and taking >> the worst imaginable risk every single time. And see if any >> those ones you can really like game game the system on like Battleground 2, >> Gettysburg. You ever you ever played You ever played that, Neil?
>> No, I haven't. I've um The only tabletops I've played are um like Ironclads from like the 70s.
>> Oh, yeah. That's I've never played that, but it was a good game. No, this one was a computer game. And this and the problem actually this problem extends to a lot of Civil War tactical games and a lot of paper a lot of board games is what they call panzer artillery >> where you essentially just are using the cannons like it's Napoleonic Wars. So, I remember this one time I was playing Battleground Gettysburg and I'm like, "Well, how am I going to break the Union center?" Um, you know, so I just moved up a bunch of Confederate batteries at night at close range and then as soon as dawn hits, I just unleash canister on them, >> right?
>> You know, totally reasonable. No, no, there's no problem moving 30 cannons up.
The Federals will never hear you moving that stuff up, will they? Well, that's the other thing about like turnbased or or like those games where it's like it's the night so you can't attack in the night theoretically or like they disable it. So like >> but in reality you'd be like what what I hear a whole lot of wheels moving all of a sudden. We should probably send out some check it out. [laughter] >> That's the thing is they they can't they don't they can't hear so they can't properly react now. I think two or three of my batteries were destroyed. like they fired and you know knocked the B like killed enough of the you know killed and wounded enough of the crew.
Uh but no I I blasted a hole right there and Pickicket's division went straight up man and took the center [laughter] >> at dawn on July 3rd the [laughter] >> you just had no artillery left for your army after that.
>> Oh we ran out of we ran out of some ammo. We lost some guns. But no, we uh you know uh don't worry man. the the the road to Washington is open. If we can only get through thoseations, >> it's all up to Sam Heitelman now.
>> It's all up to Sam. That's right.
Commander 23rd Corps. We were talking about him uh uh Monday.
>> All right, guys. We got anything else or we uh >> We have one more Streamlabs from Dan the Step the Cattorian for $3. Thank you, Dan. Neil, what is your view on Admiral Thomas Cochran? I think he's one of the best admirals that ever fought for five countries. Napoleon called him the seawolf.
>> Uh I think that he uh I think that his reputation is well warranted. I don't think that he's um he gets overblown in some respects. Uh but honestly, like personally, I don't think that that overblowing is unwarranted.
Uh, I think that Cochran's got a lot going for him and uh I mean his accomplishments are pretty good and like um honestly he's just he's pretty top tier in my in my in my in that regard. I would say >> to say he's rated.
>> He's rated.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. But I mean, not not as not as bad as some of the other guys out there at the same time. Like he's >> there are much worse officers. You could definitely say >> for sure. Um, >> yeah. I'm trying to think of another because I've got a book called Naval Blunders in my living room that I've been, you know, meaning to go throughout the, you know, push set up my queue of books to read so I can talk about some more incompetent admirals.
>> But, I mean, I don't know nearly as much about naval disasters as I do about land disasters. Um, [clears throat] >> we have actually another super chat from Michael R. Thank you, Michael. Have you guys played Grand Tactician Civil War on Steam?
>> I have not. No, >> I haven't either.
>> Yeah, the last computer game I played was that was No Greater Glory and uh that game broke me. So, I gave up again.
The Union keeps dissolving like before Christmas 1861. That's all I could say.
[laughter] >> Huh.
>> You know, I I like I that look guys who beat that game announce it the way like like the way you would announce beating I don't know Ninja Gaiden 3 US edition or something. Just just a [ __ ] hard game, man. Just >> god that like so maybe I'll try it again. And I love the I love the concepts behind it. But after that, I was like, uh, uh, I'm I'm too busy writing to be playing No Greater Glory and beating my head against the wall.
>> Yeah. So, I guess uh, you know, the way you announce your victory and that is in all caps on the internet.
[laughter] >> One comment somewhere, somebody said, "Yeah, I beat this game." The guy said, "I don't believe you." This that's all it says. I don't believe you. It's like [laughter] It's like beating Battle Toads, man.
Like, you know, you comment on a dog video and you're like, "Oh, that's a lovely golden retriever." Also, just so you know, >> I beat that game. [laughter] >> Jesus, uh, Derek, or we uh >> I think that just about does it. I'll refresh Streamlabs once more and check.
But I think we are Yeah, we are done for the evening with viewer questions.
>> All right, man. Well, I guess that uh you want to wrap things up or uh you got anything else you want to anything you want to go over?
>> Um I don't really have anything else to announce for now. I I will try to get out a video on Friday, but aside from that, I I mean, that'll just be an upload in the morning, and it'll most likely be about the Kingdom of Dumnia, which is uh you know, the Britain survival state in Cornwall and Devon after the departure of the Romans and the invasion of the Anglo-Saxons.
>> This would be kind of like my video on Strathco.
That sounds like not a fantasy. The kingdom of Duvonia.
>> Dunomia.
>> Dunomia. Yeah, that's that sounds like something of a fantasy novel.
>> Well, it's named after the Dumnoni tribe, which predated the Romans. So, >> Gotcha. All right, man.
>> It's also got other alternative names.
West Wales is what the Saxons called it.
>> All right.
>> Uh I know for uh I don't know if he contacted you. I think the guy wanted to do the part two Targaryen and Dan would do the part two Targaryen stream.
>> Yes. Next. Talk to him. That's that's uh Dan, the guy who uh >> Yeah, Dan. Yeah. And then Monday we have Shandoa Valley with Chris and he confirmed an on email. Did you see it?
>> Um I think I saw it but I don't remember fan.
>> Okay. Well, just let me know if just let me know if it's up there or not. But he confirmed that he's down for Monday. So just give him the Discord information and then u we can uh we can have him on.
That means we've had two presidents of Emerging Civil War on backtoback then.
You know, I'm I'm not the president yet.
>> Oh, that's right. I'm sorry. My bad. My bad. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. My bad.
>> Sorry.
>> My my apologies, El. My apologies. But anyways, uh but yeah. No, Chris will be on for uh the Valley and then we'll be taking a bit of a Civil War break. We won't have the next one until July 13th when we do seven days.
>> Wow.
>> So, that's all that's all I got on my end. If you guys want to close up, got anything else? We're all good.
>> I don't have anything else.
>> All right. Well, thank you Neil for coming on and uh talking about all these fascinating weapons and uh you know this historic engagement between these two revolutionary ships and thank you everybody for tuning in tonight. So, we will see you on Monday when we come back to talk about um the Valley campaign which is we now know the significance of it especially after Monday's stream but now we'll see what actually happened and whether Stonewall Jackson really does live up to the legend. All right, so we'll see you when we see you. Good night.
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