This video presents a theological debate where Pastor Gino Jennings argues that God is eternal and self-existent, citing biblical passages like Isaiah 45:7 ('I form the light and create darkness') and Hebrews 7:3 ('having neither beginning of days, nor end of life') to demonstrate that God cannot have originated from darkness. The debate challenges the Nation of Islam's 'triple darkness' doctrine, which teaches that Allah created himself from darkness, by emphasizing that all religious claims must be tested against revealed scripture rather than tradition or human opinion. The discussion highlights that both biblical and Quranic texts affirm God's eternal nature, with the Quran's Surah 112 stating 'He neither begets nor is born.'
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Pastor Gino Jennings Destroys the "Triple Darkness" Doctrine | Nation of Islam Debate
Added:so much hate. Every time you turn on the television, you're seen the manifestation of it. I take my hat off to you.
>> I am thankful to him and I'm thankful for this. I'm here to say as a black man, I was a negro, but I have turned black. I'm not GOING BACK. COME ON. I'M MARCHING FORWARD WITH MY COMMANDERIN-CHIEF, THE HONORABLE LEWIS FARHAN. I THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.
ASSALAM ALALAYKUM. [cheering] >> [applause] >> Welcome to the explainer. Today we're diving into something absolutely fascinating. We are analyzing a passionate, highstakes, and deeply profound interfaith debate. It features Pastor Gino Jennings and representatives from the Nation of Islam alongside an attending Sunni imam. We'll be looking directly at the transcripts from this theological clash to understand their fundamental disagreements about the very origins of God. And honestly, it teaches us a whole lot about how we search for truth in our own lives.
>> We want to say we thank Minister Ronnie Muhammad for for those wonderful, fiery remarks.
I was hoping that he didn't have to leave so the meeting wouldn't be incomplete.
>> Amen.
>> You tapes are here.
>> I agree. and get him out the trunk >> with the statements that he have made on various points.
The brother have said that the white man should be down here being charged, but it wasn't a white man that taught God created himself out of triple darkness.
>> So, we can't charge a white man.
Unless if he's a student of Minister Farakhan >> and Minister Faracan is a student of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is a student of Master Fat Muhammad.
>> Amen.
>> That will only be the only white man to charge. Amen.
Amen. [applause] If you going to tell me to charge a white man, >> Amen.
>> then the charge must go past Farakhan, pass the honorable Elijah Muhammad right to master Fat Muhammad who's part original man. So if you want me to charge him, I charge Far.
>> Amen.
>> AMEN.
>> YEAH. I CHARGE HIM.
AMEN.
NOW, [cheering] brothers and sisters, >> the brother minister said some excellent remarks. See, I was hoping he would stay.
>> Amen.
>> So we can get a chance to question one another.
>> That's right. That's right.
>> Oh yes. Amen.
YEAH.
FIRST and foremost, let me make something clear. Our religion is not Christianity.
>> Amen.
>> And only those around the world that have seen our program know this.
>> Amen. Many have made the mistake of because they see a preacher in a church, their religion is quote unquote Christianity. That's not our religion.
>> Amen.
>> That's not the religion of the prophets.
>> That was never God religion.
>> Amen.
>> That was never the religion of the apostles. God have never told you your religion is Christianity. BUT I CAN'T find where God said be in.
>> AMEN.
[applause] >> THIS IS OUR RELIGION.
>> AMEN.
>> GOD SAYS, "BE YE HOLY, FOR I >> I am holy."
>> am holy. You you may ask, well, how long your religion been here? It has no age.
>> Amen.
>> Who founded it? NOBODY.
>> AMEN.
>> WHO STARTED IT? Not anyone. IS THAT SCRIPTURE? YES. The Bible teaches us that according to as God has chosen us in him >> before the foundation of the world that we should be holy. Doesn't mean before creation came here, >> Amen.
>> God purposed for us to be holy.
>> Amen.
>> Now, the brother made the statement that you don't have to have scripture. That don't work here.
[applause] >> Amen.
LISTEN brothers and sisters, >> Amen.
>> anytime you got a religion and that religion SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> THEN THE CONTENTS OF THAT RELIGION, THE BELIEFS OF THAT RELIGION, THE STANDARDS OF THAT RELIGION MUST COME from the scriptures.
>> Amen.
HOW CAN I TELL YOU SOMETHING ABOUT GOD?
>> YES.
>> THAT A PROPHET OF GOD NEVER SAID, >> "AMEN."
>> AMEN.
>> THAT NO REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD ever said, let us remember any messenger that come on the scene, >> Amen.
>> his message must be according to what is written.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> [applause] >> THAT'S RIGHT. NOW, the reason why we believe what's written, >> let's go to work. Amen.
We going to go to work this afternoon.
Amen. [applause] >> The brother, he said a lot of good words.
>> I'm not interested in good sounding words.
Not at all.
I don't hate the Nation of Islam. I don't hate the honor of Elijah Muhammad.
Our brought are we not striving for popularity because we heard around the world.
>> Amen.
>> And I would tell anybody the honor of Elijah Muhammad done more in the black community than any black man that came on the scene.
>> Amen.
>> [applause] >> We're not questioning his teachings of self-help.
>> We're not questioning him instructing the black man not to look for others to do for you what you can do for yourself.
>> Amen.
>> What we're talking about is talking about is greater than a mosque.
>> Yeah.
>> Greater than a church.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> GREATER THAN YOUR BUSINESS.
>> AMEN. We're talking about the master of all creation, the master of THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, AND THE CHERISHER AND SUSTAINER OF ALL WORLDS, GOD.
>> AMEN.
[applause] >> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT WHITE FOLK OR BLACK FOLK. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GOD.
AMEN.
[applause] >> THE BLACK MAN NEED GOD JUST LIKE THE WHITE ONE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE WHITE ONE NEED GOD JUST LIKE THE YELLOW ONE.
>> AMEN.
>> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. We're talking about God. And if anybody here >> Amen.
>> believe that you are justified believing God based upon self-made ideas, >> AMEN. THEN WHY PREACH FROM THE QURAN OR THE BIBLE?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> These books supposed to be divinely inspired.
>> Amen.
And if these books are divinely inspired, SIR, >> THEN THAT WOULD MEAN GOD >> MOVED the prophets to talk.
>> That's right.
>> THAT WOULD MEAN NO PROPHET SPOKE BY HIS PERMISSION.
>> That's right.
>> THAT WOULD MEAN NO APOSTLE SPOKE BY HIS PERMISSION. SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOW ME WHAT'S WRITTEN.
THE BIBLE SAYS WHATSOEVER things are written or four TIMES ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING THAT WE THROUGH PATIENCE [cheering] AND COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES MIGHT HAVE HOPE.
>> AMEN.
>> IF IF IT TAKE THE SCRIPTURES to build a righteous people.
>> That's right.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> YOU'RE NOT GOD'S PEOPLE by a word of mouth.
>> Amen.
>> Are you listening to what I'M TALKING AMEN.
>> YOU'RE NOT GOD'S PEOPLE BY OPINION.
>> That's right.
>> EUROPE OR AMERICA.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> DOESN'T MAKE us God's people.
>> Amen.
>> Wisdom and knowledge AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD THROUGH THE PROPHETS.
>> AMEN.
>> Developers are people.
>> That's right.
>> Because once WE BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WE MUST LEARN THE NATURE of our father.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. [applause] FOR US to learn THE NATURE OF GOD, >> AMEN.
>> we must go back, >> Amen.
>> to what's written.
>> What's written. That's right.
>> SO NOBODY >> That's right.
>> would ever tell me and get away with it.
>> You don't have to teach the people what's written. If Muslims >> Amen.
>> NOT GOING TO BELIEVE AND GO BY THE QURAN, DON'T CARRY IT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> TALK TO ME.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AMEN.
>> IF YOU SOAL CHRISTIANS, >> AMEN.
>> IT'S NOT GOING [screaming] TO GO BY THE BIBLE. AMEN.
>> AND THROW IT IN THE TRASH.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
[applause] >> You see, WHEN IT COME TO GOD, >> AMEN.
>> I DON'T care who you are.
>> Amen.
>> I don't care where you come from. I don't care nothing about the signs following.
>> Amen.
>> Because I know God word is perfect. Let me SHOW YOU WHY WE STRESS.
>> AMEN.
>> To believe what's written. I will not have confidence IN TEACHING FOR SOMEONE TO GIVE ME an opinion.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> ABOUT GOD.
>> That's right.
>> LISTEN, WE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT A STORE.
>> NO.
>> WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT GOD LIKE HE'S SOMEBODY FROM THE HOOD. AMEN.
>> That's right.
[applause] >> AMEN.
>> WHAT KIND OF GODFEARING HUMAN BEING >> WOULD I BE?
>> AMEN.
>> THAT I WOULD LET YOU GIVE ME A WORD OF MOUTH >> AND TELL ME SOMETHING ABOUT GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> AND THEN JESUS SAID, >> "That's right.
>> Ye fools."
>> That's right.
>> AND SLOW HEART.
>> BELIEVE ALL WHAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID.
THAT'S RIGHT.
>> FOR ME TO DO THAT, WE GOT TO GO TO WHAT'S WRITTEN.
>> That's right. That's right.
>> Now, let's dive into the scripture. He says he doesn't have to give scripture to prove it.
>> All right.
>> Amen.
>> Well, I'm going to give scripture to prove it never happened.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> I'm going to give scripture to prove it never happened. BECAUSE IF GOD created himself, >> all right, sir. And Muslims, we don't hate you.
>> That's right.
>> But we should be able to disagree without being violent and disagreeable.
>> Amen.
>> If listen at the lesson, if God created himself from darkness, Amen.
>> to be created, you can't these books supposed to be divinely inspired.
>> Amen.
And if these books are divinely inspired, >> THEN THAT WOULD MEAN GOD MOVED the prophets to talk.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THAT WOULD MEAN NO PROPHET SPOKE BY HIS PERMISSION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THAT WOULD MEAN NO APOSTLE SPOKE BY HIS PERMISSION. SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOW ME WHAT'S WRITTEN.
THE BIBLE SAYS WHATSOEVER things are written or fought TIME ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING THAT WE THROUGH PATIENCE AND COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES MIGHT HAVE HOPE.
>> AMEN. [applause] >> IF IT TAKE THE scriptures to build a righteous people.
>> That's right.
>> YOU'RE NOT GOD'S PEOPLE BY a word of mouth.
>> Amen.
>> Are you listening to what I'm TALKING ABOUT? AMEN.
>> YOU'RE NOT GOD'S PEOPLE BY OPINION.
>> That's right.
>> EUROPE OR AMERICA.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> DOESN'T MAKE US God's people.
>> Amen.
>> Wisdom and KNOWLEDGE AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF GOD THROUGH THE PROPHETS.
>> AMEN.
>> Developers of people.
>> That's right.
>> Because once WE BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WE MUST LEARN THE NATURE of our father.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
FOR US to learn the NATURE OF GOD, >> AMEN.
>> WE MUST GO BACK, >> AMEN.
>> to what's written.
>> That's right.
>> SO NOBODY >> That's right.
>> would ever tell me and get away with it.
>> You don't have to teach the people what's written. If Muslims >> AMEN.
>> NOT GOING TO BELIEVE AND GO BY THE QURAN, DON'T CARRY IT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> TALK TO ME.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> [applause] >> AMEN.
>> IF YOU SOAL CHRISTIANS >> AMEN.
>> IT'S NOT GOING TO GO BY THE BIBLE. AMEN.
>> AND THROW IT IN THE TRASH.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
[applause] >> You see, WHEN IT COME TO GOD, >> AMEN.
>> I DON'T care who you are.
>> Amen.
>> I don't care where you come from. I don't care nothing about the size following.
>> Amen.
>> Because I know God word is perfect. LET ME SHOW YOU WHY WE STRESS.
>> AMEN.
>> To believe what's written. I will not have confidence IN TEACHING FOR SOMEONE TO GIVE ME an opinion.
>> That's right.
>> ABOUT GOD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> LISTEN, WE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT A STORE.
>> NO.
>> WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT GOD LIKE HE'S SOMEBODY FROM THE HOOD. AMEN.
>> That's right.
>> AMEN.
>> WHAT KIND OF GODFEARING HUMAN BEING >> WOULD I BE?
>> AMEN.
>> THAT I would LET YOU GIVE ME A WORD OF MOUTH >> AND TELL ME SOMETHING ABOUT GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> AND THEN JESUS SAID, >> "That's right.
>> You fools."
>> That's right.
>> AND SLOW HEARTS.
>> SLOW HEART.
>> BELIEVE ALL WHAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SAID.
THAT'S RIGHT.
>> FOR ME TO DO THAT, WE GOT to go to what's written.
>> That's right. That's right. [applause] >> Now, let's dive into the scripture. He says he doesn't have to give scripture to prove it.
>> All right.
>> Amen.
>> Well, I'm going to give scripture to prove it never happened.
>> That's right.
>> I'm going to give scripture to prove it never happened. BECAUSE IF GOD created himself, >> all right, sir.
>> And Muslims, we don't hate you.
>> That's right.
>> But we should be able to disagree without being violent and disagreeable.
>> Amen.
>> Amen.
>> If listen, the lesson, if God created himself from darkness, >> Amen.
>> to be created, you came into being.
>> That's right.
And if you came into being, you wasn't always here.
>> That's right.
>> And if you if darkness was here before God.
>> Amen.
>> And then GOD CREATES HIMSELF FROM DARKNESS.
>> That will give darkness SOME POWER THAT GOD GOT TO BORROW FROM THE ELEMENTS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. That's right.
THE GOD OF THE PROPHETS, >> AMEN.
>> ALWAYS WAS.
>> AMEN.
>> We're supposed to have the same spirit >> spirit >> that the prophets had.
>> That's right.
>> So that mean if we got the same spirit they had, our teaching is not allowed to deviate from them.
>> That's right.
>> Let's go to work, Williams.
>> 2 Corinthians chapter 4.
>> Follow me in the scripture. 2 Corinthians >> chapter 4. See, I don't We're not going to make up nothing.
>> Amen.
>> No, I ain't making up nothing.
AMEN.
[applause] All due respect to my brother, if he's not going to give you what's written, >> Amen.
>> that I am.
>> Amen.
>> [applause] >> Notice in the Bible >> 2 Corinthians chapter 4 and at verse 13.
>> Then we get the Quran.
>> Amen.
>> Amen.
>> Listen.
>> We having the same spirit of faith.
>> The scripture says we have the same spirit of belief. That mean the belief we have in God.
>> Amen.
>> The spirit that guide us to believe in God supposed to be the same SPIRIT THAT GUIDED THEM. That's right.
>> TO BELIEVE IN GOD. THAT'S WHY I don't see how you churches can come up with trinity.
>> Amen.
>> Three separate distinct curtains in a godhead when the prophets only preach one.
>> That's right.
>> They only believe one.
>> That's right.
>> And if WE GOT THE SAME SPIRIT THEY HAVE, WE MUST SETTLE WITH ONE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. That's right.
>> Listen.
>> We having the same spirit of faith.
>> Yes.
>> According >> according >> as it is written.
>> You see this?
>> That's right.
>> Amen. He's saying he don't have to give you as written. That differ from here.
>> According as it is written.
>> Scripture instructs us your faith must be according to what's where?
>> As it is written.
>> No, what's made up >> as it is written.
>> An idea >> as it is written.
>> An opinion >> as it is written.
>> AMEN.
>> TALK TO ME.
>> AMEN.
[applause] AMEN.
[applause] >> YOU [screaming] WILL NEVER >> GO AHEAD. GO AHEAD.
>> BE A PEOPLE OF GOD.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> WITHOUT LIVING BY WHAT'S WRITTEN.
>> That's right. That's right.
>> WHAT'S WRITTEN IS THE LAW.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THAT TEACHES US HOW TO ACT.
>> AMEN.
>> TEACHES US WHAT NOT TO DO.
>> AMEN. TEACHES US WHAT TO DO, WHAT WE CAN'T INDULGE IN, WHAT TO SEPARATE FROM, WHAT TO INVOLVE IN. AND YOU GOING TO TELL ME YOU AIN'T GOT to give me no scripture.
>> No scripture. AMEN.
>> YOU WANT ME TO SERVE A GOD THAT I CAN'T READ ABOUT?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> YOU WANT ME TO SUBMIT TO A GOD >> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THAT YOU CAN'T PROVE TO ME BY THE SCRIPTURE.
>> AMEN.
>> I don't have to believe a word of it.
>> That's right.
Amen.
[applause] >> Amen.
>> Listening that was written.
>> We having the same spirit of faith.
>> We have the same spirit of belief.
>> According as it is written, >> according to as it is written.
>> I believe.
>> I believe. I believe it's written.
>> That's right.
>> I believe what is written. Even Jesus, >> Amen.
>> referred to the prophets.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
HE QUOTED FROM THE PROPHETS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> BECAUSE THE NEW TESTAMENT WASN'T WRITTEN.
>> AMEN.
>> SO ALL HE HAD WAS THE PROPHETS.
>> PROPHETS. That's right.
>> So how can we come along late?
>> AMEN.
>> ALL OF US IS late on the scene.
>> That's right.
>> Amen.
>> Oh yes. That's right. All of us are late on the scene. So how can we arrive late?
>> Amen. and didn't tell you. You ain't got to give me no scripture.
>> No scripture.
>> No sir.
>> That's different from Jesus.
>> That's right.
>> Listen.
>> We having the same spirit of faith.
>> What is it?
>> According as it is written.
>> What?
>> According as it is written.
>> According as it is written.
>> I believe.
>> I believe.
>> And therefore, >> therefore >> have I spoken.
>> Wait a minute.
>> Listen closely.
>> Amen.
>> He says what? We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken.
>> You supposed to believe what's written, then speak that way.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> In the Quran, >> surah >> six.
>> Amen.
>> In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful.
Praise be to Allah who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness. Amen.
[cheering and applause] Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
THIS IS YOUR BOOK. THAT'S RIGHT.
[cheering] 60.
>> AMEN.
>> AMEN.
>> YES.
>> Go ahead.
>> Listen.
>> Go ahead. GO AHEAD.
>> THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE.
>> PREACHER. PREACHER >> IN THE QURAN.
>> AMEN.
>> OR THE BIBLE.
>> AMEN.
>> THAT TEACH DARKNESS WAS IN EXISTENCE BEFORE GOD. AMEN. PROPHET MUHAMMAD NEVER TAUGHT IT. JESUS NEVER TAUGHT IT.
JEREMIAH NEVER TAUGHT IT. AND IF THEY DIDN'T TEACH IT, who give you the right?
>> That's right. That's right.
>> WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU?
>> AMEN.
>> TALK TO ME.
>> AMEN.
Go ahead. Go ahead.
>> WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU?
>> THAT'S RIGHT. ALL RIGHT.
>> THE HONORARY MUHAMMAD WAS GOOD.
>> AMEN.
>> BUT GOD HERE IS THE GREATEST.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> That's right.
[applause] AMEN.
[applause] THIS IS WHY THERE'S A SAYING IN ISLAM THAT IS PART OF OUR SAYING.
>> That's right.
>> WHAT YOU MEAN? IF GOD IS THE GREATEST, >> AMEN.
>> WE TAKE GOD'S WORD. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WE LIVE BY GOD'S LAW. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WE SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW. IF YOU HAVE PRODUCED WHAT'S WRITTEN, >> YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPECT ME AS A BELIEVER TO FOLLOW IT.
>> That's right.
>> YOU HAVE NO RIGHT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
[applause] >> Praise be to Allah who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. AMEN. YET THOSE WHO REJECT FAITH HOLD OTHERS as equal with their guardian Lord. This is the book of Islam.
>> That's right.
>> THAT GOD >> That's right.
>> created the darkness.
>> Amen.
>> We believe that.
>> That's right.
>> NOW, LET'S SEE. DOES THE BIBLE >> MHM.
>> AGREE. Brother Thomas Smallwood said to me, he said, "Brother, the Bible and the Quran is married to one another."
Well, I was hoping my brother, Minister Rody Muhammad, would at least get the husband or the wife. [snorts] >> That's right.
That's right.
That's right. [applause] >> Amen.
>> AT LEAST GIVE ME SOMETHING.
>> SOMETHING. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> DON'T TELL ME JUST BELIEVE IT. THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THERE'S TOO MUCH OF THAT PREACHING GOING AROUND.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> [applause] >> WE WANT what's written.
>> What's written.
>> WE WANT TO BELIEVE IT.
>> AMEN.
>> Because if it is truth and we ARE GOD'S PEOPLE, >> RIGHT?
>> WE WANT TO BELIEVE IT.
>> That's right.
>> Listen at the scriptures >> in Isaiah chapter 45 and at verse 7.
>> Yes.
>> I form the light.
>> This is God talking.
>> Amen.
>> God says, I >> form the light.
>> Form the light. and create darkness.
>> God said, >> "Yes, >> I form the light and create darkness."
>> and create darkness.
AMEN.
>> GOD SAID IT.
>> AMEN.
>> ALLAH.
[screaming] AMEN.
GOD SAID IT.
>> AMEN.
AMEN.
>> It's written here. I formed the light.
>> LISTEN.
LISTEN, brothers and sisters.
>> I FORMED THE LIGHT.
>> WE'RE NOT GIVING YOU OPINION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> NO PREACHER CAN TELL ME.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> To just believe it.
>> AMEN.
>> BECAUSE YOU SAID IT.
>> AMEN.
>> Only one CAN TALK LIKE THAT AND GET AWAY WITH IT IS GOD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> CUZ THE ONLY ONE CAN TALK LIKE THAT.
>> That's right.
[applause] Listen.
>> I form the light.
>> Listen at what God said.
>> And I >> I form the light.
>> Form the light. Everybody listen.
>> And create darkness.
>> God said I form the light. I create darkness.
>> I make peace.
>> I make peace >> and create evil.
>> And create evil.
>> I THE LORD >> I THE Lord >> do all these things. Everyone listen.
Everyone listen. The Nation of Islam have to leave. They They going out quietly. You listen and pay attention because we want you to get We want you to get what's written here.
>> That's right.
>> What's right?
[applause] Amen.
>> NO DEVOUT MUSLIM.
>> GO AHEAD. Go ahead. Go ahead.
AND SUBMIT TO ALLAH.
>> AMEN.
>> AND DISBELIEVE THE QURAN.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. [applause] >> NONE.
>> That's right.
>> NO HUMAN CAN BE A MUSLIM.
>> AMEN.
>> And disbelieve the Quran.
>> That's right.
>> Impossible.
>> Impossible. Amen.
>> Now, if darkness was here before God >> Mhm.
Then the teachings of the Nation of Islam.
I have studied the Nation of Islam. This why many of them thought I was from as they call the first resurrection.
>> Amen.
>> The teaching he didn't go into details but the teaching that God created himself from darkness.
It is taught that he started out as a speck of blood. Mhm.
>> Well, the brothers say it's not true, BUT WE DO HAVE the Savior's day.
>> Amen. That's right.
>> And even though I may disagree with brother Rodney Muhammad, we was respectful and did not interrupt him.
>> That's right.
Amen. [cheering] And if WE AS A people can respect our brother and even though I felt as though he made statements that wasn't true.
>> Amen.
>> That's right.
>> BUT WE SAT QUIET.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AND [cheering] WE SIT WITH DISCIPLINE.
>> AMEN.
>> You know, I should have followed my mind and I would have brought the tape and played it.
>> Played it. That's right. That's good.
>> But being that they say is not true, when this is aired on our telecast, it will BE AN EXCERPT PLAYED.
>> AMEN.
>> And you will hear it for yourself. Amen.
>> [applause] >> AMEN.
IT WAS TAUGHT IN SAVIOR'S DAY 96 and in Savior's Day 97 THAT GOD, AND I QUOTE, >> AMEN.
>> created himself from darkness.
>> Amen. And brother minister said if YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW GOD created himself find out how you came into being.
>> Right.
>> He said Allah started as a SPECK OF BLOOD SPINNING in space.
>> That's right.
>> And he said we don't know how long it took ALLAH TO CREATE HIMSELF.
>> AMEN.
>> BUT WE KNOW THAT HE WAS CREATED.
>> And they SAY THIS IS NOT TRUE. So keep tuned to the telecast.
>> That's right.
>> Here now is footage of Minister Lewis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam on Savior's Day 1997.
>> The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us.
God himself created.
Let's stop right there.
The Holy Quran said he is not begotten.
SO if God is not begotten then he is the originator of himself.
>> All right.
>> IN THE PROCESS of God's selfc creation he had to overcome many things.
The honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that Allah created himself out of the material of the darkness.
HE HAD TO OVERCOME darkness which was very real.
Listen listen.
HE HAD TO OVERCOME a real darkness and we are to overcome darkness as well.
Our beginning bears witness to his beginning.
Therefore, no life IS CONCEIVED IN LIGHT.
>> [screaming] >> ALL light >> starts in triple darkness >> AND THEN COMES OUT OF TRIPLE darkness into light. LET ME READ IT to you from the Holy Quran.
The Allah says in the Quran THAT HE CREATED YOU FROM A SINGLE ESSENCE OF BEING and made it mate of the same kind. Stop brothers, sisters, when you say, "And God made man," and you make the creation of woman something strange.
>> We're making an error that causes mistreatment >> of the female.
And any misunderstanding of the female >> and mistreatment of the female denies us access to God.
I want I want you to hear me.
Allah says he creates you in the wings of your mothers creation after creation in triple darkness that is Allah your Lord.
Now the darkness out of which Allah created himself HAS NO EQUAL EXCEPT IN THE TRIPLE DARKNESS of the womb OF THE FEMALE.
I'm going to say it again and I'm going to prove it scientifically now.
The darkness out of which God created himself has no equal except in the darkness of the womb of the female. God has made her WOMB a replication of the womb out of WHICH HE CAME.
LET'S LOOK AT THIS.
>> You think darkness outside is darkness.
Run.
Darkness outside is AN ILLUSION.
THERE is no real darkness in this universe except the womb of THE FEMALE.
Now listen.
BUT THAT'S AN ILLUSION. THAT'S NOT REAL.
BECAUSE THAT darkness disappears with the presence of light.
WHY? BECAUSE IT'S NOT REAL. WHAT you're walking in is the shadow created by light STRIKING THE EARTH. AND WHEN THE LIGHT STRIKES THE EARTH on the other side, this side is under the earth's shadow. YOU CALL IT NIGHT but it's not real DARKNESS but real DARKNESS >> IS IN THE WOMB >> OF THE FEMALE.
HOW MUCH DOES GOD LOVE HER?
THAT HE MAKES HER TO RESEMBLE THE WOMB OUT OF WHICH HE CREATED HIMSELF.
>> TO SHOW YOU THAT HE IS EVER WORKING IN DARKNESS TO BRING THINGS OUT OF DARKNESS >> into light. Now let's look.
>> BEAR WITH ME.
THE HONORABLE ELIJAH Muhammad said he started as an atom of life.
>> Now, if you really want to know how God began, STUDY HOW WE BEGIN.
>> HOW did you begin?
>> What was your beginning?
A tiny microscopic sperm touched an egg in the darkness of the womb and created the first cell of life, a drop of blood.
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us that that drop of blood began rotating in the darkness of the womb. Now the the blood could not rotate except that light was present in the darkness.
But the light is in the essence of the cell.
I want YOU TO HEAR ME.
IF LIGHT is in the ESSENCE OF THE CELL, ENERGY is there, intelligence is there.
>> God formed himself IN THE DARKNESS.
HE HAD TO OVERCOME THE DARKNESS.
That darkness that we have to overcome now is the real darkness of our ignorance.
>> If Amen. IF GOD STARTED OUT AS A SPECK OF BLOOD, >> MY LORD, >> WHERE DID THE BLOOD COME FROM?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WHO MADE IT?
>> AMEN.
>> Go ahead. Go ahead.
>> WHY WOULD GOD HAVE TO be created?
[laughter] >> Right.
>> IF HE CREATED HIMSELF, HE DID NOT always exist. I DON'T WANT A GOD THAT DIDN'T ALWAYS EXIST. AMEN.
NOW, BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WE BELIEVE THAT GOD >> AMEN.
>> is before all things.
>> That's right.
>> This is our belief.
>> That's right.
>> WE BELIEVE GOD, >> AMEN.
>> the sender of all true holy prophets.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE MASTER OF THE DAY of judgment.
>> AMEN.
>> THE CHERISHER AND SUSTAINER OF ALL WORDS. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE ONE GOD OF THE PROPHETS.
>> AMEN.
>> THE ONE GOD THAT WAS IN THE MESSIAH, CHRIST JESUS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WE believe that eternal spirit. Someone said, "You believe in a spirit, you call him what you want." The Bible say God is a spirit.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> WE BELIEVE GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> ALL was and HE WAS BEFORE ALL THINGS. AND I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU scripture that says just that.
>> In Colossians chapter 1, >> FOLLOW ME. LISTEN, I WANT YOU TO FOLLOW ME IN THE SCRIPTURE.
>> That's right.
>> You see, I DON'T HAVE NO PAPERS.
>> NO, >> I don't need them.
>> Don't need them.
>> Because I preach by what's written.
>> That's right.
>> And if you preach BY WHAT'S WRITTEN, YOU don't need no pre-planned sermon.
>> That's right.
That's right. Amen. [applause] >> Listen at the scriptures >> in Colossians chapter 1, begin reading at verse 16. For by him were all things created.
>> Listen, that's talking about no one but God.
>> That's right.
>> THE BIBLE SAYS, "BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED." WELL, SOMEONE SAID, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That's talking about a man."
>> Mhm.
Because you see the word himim him him.
AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. IF GOD is a spirit, why don't you call God it? If God is a spirit, the scriptures won't call a spirit him.
>> That's not correct.
>> No, it's not.
>> The scriptures call God he >> John 16 and verse 13.
>> Follow me [screaming] in the scriptures.
>> That's right.
>> Listen. First in John 16 and at verse 13. How be it when he >> How be it WHEN HE IF I'M A HE >> AMEN.
>> I'm a him.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> I can't be he and she unless [laughter] >> BUT IF I BEAR THE TITLE HE I'M HIM. CALL THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN.
>> ST. John chapter 16. the diff. I want you to follow me in the scriptures.
>> That's right.
>> This is what this meeting is about.
Scriptures. See, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO EXCITE you or ray you up. We want you to believe what's in the scriptures only.
>> That's right.
>> That's our interest.
>> That's right. [applause] >> Paul chapter verse again.
>> St. John chapter 16 and at verse 13.
>> Listen.
>> How be IT WHEN HE >> HOW BE IT WHEN HE >> THE SPIRIT HOW BE when he >> the spirit >> of what?
>> Of truth is come.
>> HE >> WHO IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH OTHER THAN GOD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> ISAIAH CHAPTER 43.
>> NO MAN IS the spirit of truth.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE ONLY ONE IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS GOD. SO THE ETERNAL SPIRIT GOD ALONE.
>> YES SIR. YES SIR.
>> BEARS THE TITLE HE. That's right.
That's right.
>> BECAUSE WHEN HE MAKE MAN in his image, >> Amen.
>> MAN IS A REFLECTION OF GOD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> GOD IS NOT a man. We'll get into that later.
>> Amen.
>> Amen.
>> But we just want to straighten out that the spirit cannot be called he. The Bible said when he, the spirit of truth, IS COME. IT DIDN'T SAY WHEN A MAN COME WITH THE SPIRIT of truth.
>> No, no.
>> It says when he >> the spirit >> spirit of truth is come >> he >> he he >> he will GUIDE YOU >> WILL GUIDE YOU >> INTO all truth.
>> THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE TODAY.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> WE WAS GUIDED BY THE SPIRIT.
>> That's right.
>> Now, let's get the scripture >> that teaches us God was before all things. In Colossians chapter 1, still at verse 16.
>> If you read this and disbelieve it, the hell you ought to go.
>> That's right.
[applause] >> That's right.
>> Are you listening to me?
>> Amen.
>> Listen at the scriptures >> in Colossians chapter 1 and at verse 16.
For by him were all things created. By him were all things created >> that are in heaven >> that are in heaven >> and that are in and and that are in earth >> that are in earth >> visible >> visible >> and invisible >> and invisible >> whether they be thrones >> what else >> or dominions >> what else >> or principalities >> what else >> or powers >> what else >> all things >> WHAT >> ALL THINGS >> ALL things >> were created >> were created >> by him >> by him >> and FOR HIM >> AND FOR HIM.
>> And he >> Uhoh.
>> Amen.
>> For him.
>> Amen.
>> Uh-oh.
>> Amen.
>> And he WHO HE GOD.
>> That's right.
>> What?
>> And he is BEFORE >> AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS.
>> AMEN.
>> THAT'S GOD'S LAW.
>> AMEN. [applause] AMEN.
>> [applause] >> THE SCRIPTURE SAYS GOD >> IS BEFORE.
>> AND DON'T TELL ME A WHITE MAN put that in there.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> EVERY TRUE PROPHET OF GOD, >> AMEN.
>> SPEAKS BY GOD PERMISSION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. That's right.
>> SO MY QUESTION IS TO THE Muslim brothers, BY WHOSE PERMISSION, >> AMEN. CAN YOU SAY GOD CREATED HIMSELF?
Who gave you that permission?
>> That's right.
>> IF YOU SAY GOD, >> AMEN.
>> Let's read it.
>> Read it. That's right.
>> HOW DID THIS BUILDING GET UP HERE?
>> AMEN.
>> Every architect had to go by what was written on the blueprints.
>> That's right.
[applause] >> So if God is building a people, >> Amen.
BY COUNTLESS THOUGHTS, >> MHM.
>> self-made ideas.
>> Amen.
>> We'll be a worse people than what we are.
>> That's right.
>> THE BIBLE SPEAKS PLAIN.
>> AMEN.
>> Believe that again.
>> And give chapter and verse. I want you to have Bibles to follow me.
>> That's right.
>> That way you don't think this is just something off the top of my head.
>> Amen.
>> You see, I'm simply a male man.
>> That's right.
>> I pray what's already written.
>> Amen.
>> You understand?
>> AMEN. I'M A DEVIL MAN.
[applause] Listen and Colossians chapter 1 and at verse 17. And he is before all things.
>> He is before all things.
>> And by him >> by him >> all things consist. Now there is a scripture in the Quran that talks about three veil of darkness and I believe in Arabic you mean triple darkness but it isn't talking about God.
>> Amen.
>> You that had the Quran follow me.
>> Amen.
>> Open your Quran.
>> That's right.
>> That's right. to the 39th surah >> begin at verse 6.
>> Amen.
>> He created YOU ALL. Talking about Allah and to the brothers and sisters from churches the word Allah the name Allah simply Arabic for God.
>> Amen.
He Allah created you all from a single person then created of like nature his mate and he sent down for you eight head of cattle and pears. He makes He makes you in the wombs of your mothers, in stages one after another, in three veils of darkness.
Such is Allah, your Lord, your cherisher. To him belong all domain.
There is no God but he. Then how are you turned away from your true center?
Listen.
>> Amen.
>> THREE BELLS OF DARKNESS IN ARABIC REPRESENT TRIPLE.
>> But it AIN'T TALKING ABOUT GOD.
>> NO. NO.
>> IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE HUMAN FAMILY.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE TRIPLE DARKNESS IS THE BODY OF THE WOMAN.
>> That's right.
>> Let's break this down and we'll see how in Islam say do the science.
>> Amen. You know there are some scientists don't know how to experiment properly >> and they have have a tendency to make about a chemical imbalance.
>> That's right.
>> And besides being help, you are injured.
>> That's right.
>> Now whenever the man, the wife, THE MAN, THE HUSBAND lay with the woman.
>> SEED COME FROM THE MAN.
>> MHM.
>> AND THE SEED THAT COME FROM THE MAN have the characteristics of the man. That's right.
>> The seed enter into darkness.
>> That's right.
>> AND THE DARKNESS IS A TEMPLE, A VESSEL, A BODY, THE WOMAN.
>> Come on.
>> That's right.
>> AND LIFE BEGIN TO BE FORMED IN DARKNESS by the power of light.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> Go ahead.
>> Glory to God.
>> Go ahead.
>> DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
>> That's right.
>> Darkness is the body of the woman.
>> Amen. THE LIGHT THAT DOES THE CREATION IS THE WISDOM OF GOD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE EGG THAT FERTILIZED THE EGG, the wall, that egg that is there as protected by a wall. What's in that egg have the characteristics of the woman.
>> That's right. So when the seed from the man penetrate to wall m >> and light start to be formed then that child have the characteristics of mother and father.
>> That's right.
>> The child is being formed in darkness.
>> That's right.
>> In triple darkness.
>> That's right.
>> NOT GOD.
>> That's right. IT IS GOD THAT'S creating >> the child in triple dominance.
>> That's right. [applause] >> Listen.
>> Psalms 139.
>> Listen.
>> Amen.
>> At the Bible.
>> That's right.
>> Listen.
>> Psalms 139.
>> Follow me.
>> And begin at verse 11.
>> Yes.
>> If I say >> If I say, >> "Surely the darkness shall cover me."
>> Surely the darkness shall cover me. Even the night >> Even the night >> shall be light about me.
>> shall be light about me.
>> Yay, the darkness hideth not from thee.
>> What is it?
>> But the night shineth as the day.
>> Uhhuh.
>> The darkness and the light are both a light to thee. For thou hast possessed my reigns. Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. [laughter] >> Did you see that?
>> Amen.
>> Light and darkness >> and darkness >> in the body of a woman.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. WHAT IS THAT LIGHT? God's ability to create God's skill, God's wisdom.
>> That's right.
>> WHAT IS THE DARKNESS? THE body of the woman.
>> Amen.
>> And by the power of light.
>> Mhm.
>> LIGHT COME FROM A DARK PLACE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> IT COME FROM ONE STAGE OF DARKNESS AND ANOTHER stage of darkness.
>> That's right.
>> BECAUSE IT COME FROM INNER DARKNESS. AND WHEN IT ARRIVED FROM THE WOMB TO THE EARTH, AMEN.
>> is here IN OUT OF DARKNESS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
That's right.
>> What do YOU MEAN AND OUT OF DARKNESS?
THE CHILD is ignorant.
>> Amen.
>> Of the existence of self, >> OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
>> YES.
>> THE CHILD IS BLIND.
>> That's right. Having the understanding.
>> Listen.
>> In Ephesians chapter 4, >> I want to build with scripture.
>> That's right.
>> Listen. In Ephesians chapter 4 and at verse 18, having the understanding darkened, >> having the understanding darkened, >> being alienated, >> being alienated >> from the life of God, >> from the presence of God, >> through the ignorance >> through the ignorance >> that is in them.
>> Because of what?
>> Because of the blindness of their heart.
SO >> WE AS THE HUMAN FAMILY CAME FROM A dark place, the wound of our mothers.
>> That's right.
>> Being formed and fashioned AND CREATED BY ALLAH.
>> GO AHEAD. Go ahead.
>> And when we arrive HERE, WE ARRIVE NOW in another stage of darkness.
>> That's right.
>> IN ORDER FOR A MAN AND A WOMAN TO KNOW SELF.
>> AMEN.
>> YOU FIRST must be introduced to God.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> It isn't that you must LEARN SELF FIRST.
YOU CANNOT KNOW YOURSELF UNTIL YOU KNOW YOUR MASTER.
>> That's right. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> GOD IS OUR MASTER.
>> That's right. [applause] >> WHEN YOU COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, GOD WILL BRING YOU TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF SELF. HOW? THROUGH DIVINE INFORMATION.
>> SURE.
>> We begin to learn THE LESSONS OF GOD BY LEARNING THE PROPHETS.
>> That's right.
>> And learning the apostles.
>> That's right.
>> Men who was divinely inspired to relate to us the standard of God.
>> That's right. Now I AM NOT GOING TO TELL you you believe what you want to believe.
>> No. No.
>> Because none of God [screaming] messengers >> Amen.
>> TELLS THE PEOPLE believe anything you want. IF GOD WANT US TO BELIEVE anything we want, HE WOULDN'T HAVE TOOK TIME.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> And revealed himself.
>> That's right.
>> To the prophets.
>> That's right. St. John chapter 7. the purpose of eliminating >> your own personal beliefs.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> GOD SENT US MEN.
>> AMEN.
>> That's right.
>> WHO SPOKE AS THEY WERE DIVINELY INSPIRED BY GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> NO MAN CONJURED UP SOMETHING OFF THE TOP OF HIS HEAD AND SAID, "LISTEN, no Bible school, >> no seminary, >> Amen.
>> can properly inform you with THE WISDOM OF GOD." That's right.
>> The scriptures TEACHES US THIS. THE WORLD by wisdom KNOW NOT GOD. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> AND IT PLEASE GOD BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE.
YOUR PHD DON'T mean nothing here.
>> NO. NO.
>> YOUR LLD DON'T MEAN NOTHING.
>> That's right.
>> Your DD don't mean nothing.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> BUT GOD.
>> AMEN.
>> YES, SIR.
>> That mean everything.
>> Everything. That's right. How can I be a minister of God?
>> Mhm.
>> And contradict God.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> IF GOD SAY HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, >> BEFORE ALL THINGS, >> EVERYBODY IN THE BUILDING >> AMEN.
>> BETTER say the same thing.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
>> DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID?
>> AMEN.
>> IF GOD SAID >> HE IS BEFORE all things, >> HE IS BEFORE ALL [screaming] THINGS. ALL THINGS.
>> THAT I WOULD TAKE GOD'S WORD.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> OVER THE HONORABLE ELIJAH MUHAMMAD.
>> AMEN.
[applause] >> AMEN.
AMEN.
This what have brought about so many religions, >> opinions, >> idea.
>> That's right. Amen.
>> All the ministers that's in the building today.
>> Amen.
>> If you are ministering to the people >> Mhm.
>> the righteousness of God and if YOU EVER STAND BEFORE THE PEOPLE THE RIGHTEOUS OR THE UNRIGHTEOUS AND TELL THEM >> I DON'T HAVE TO SHOW YOU IN the scriptures.
>> My Lord, >> then the PEOPLE SHOULD BE CONCERNED OF THEIR SOUL ENOUGH TO ASK YOU WHY NOT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WHY NOT?
>> That's right. Amen.
[applause] >> DON'T TELL ME TO BELIEVE SOMETHING.
>> NO.
>> Scripture teaches us prove all things.
>> Prove all things. That's right.
>> Is that right?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> PROVE ALL THINGS.
>> ALL THINGS. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> NO. GOD DIDN'T COME FROM DARKNESS.
>> NO. NO.
>> We did.
>> AMEN.
>> NO. DARKNESS was here before God.
>> No.
>> In a few hours, >> IT'LL BE GONE.
AND YOU WILL SAY, "I'm into God. GOD WAS HERE BEFORE ALL THINGS."
>> THAT'S RIGHT. THEY >> WE DON'T ASSOCIATE NONE WITH HIM.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THERE'S NO GOD BESIDES HIM. IN FACT, ONE SCRIPTURE SAYS, SEE, if you say God created himself, you saying he got a beginning.
>> That's right.
>> I contradict that.
>> That's right.
>> Bring it on.
>> Give me the book of Hebrews.
>> That's right.
>> Chapter 7.
>> Seven. Amen.
>> BEGIN AT VERSE THREE.
>> VERSE THREE. That's right.
>> Follow me in the scriptures.
>> Hebrews chapter 7 and at verse three.
>> What is it?
>> Without father.
>> Come on.
>> WITHOUT FATHER.
>> AMEN.
>> What else?
>> Without mother.
>> So only God can walk around without a father.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> ONLY GOD CAN BE HERE WITHOUT HAVING A MOTHER.
>> What else?
>> Without descent.
>> Uh-oh. No descent. You ain't got no relatives.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> GOD DON'T HAVE NO RELATIVES.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WHAT ELSE?
>> Having neither BEGINNING OF DAYS. WHAT?
>> Having neither beginning of days.
>> No, he began in darkness.
>> Having neither beginning of days, >> he be in darkness.
>> Having neither beginning of days, >> HE BE IN DARKNESS.
>> Having neither beginning OF DAYS, >> HE BEGIN IN DARKNESS.
>> HAVING NEITHER beginning of days.
Amen.
>> Am I right?
>> That's right.
That's right.
That's right. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS HE HAVE NO BEGINNING OF DAYS. DOESN'T MEAN HE ALWAYS WAS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> AND WHAT ELSE?
>> Nor end of life.
>> IF HE HAVE NO END OF LIFE, HE ALWAYS will be.
>> That's right.
>> That's right.
[applause] >> Are you listening?
>> Amen. Amen. WHEN WE TEACH AMERICA AND THE WORLD, WE'RE NOT OVER THERE TO GIVE YOU OUR OPINION.
>> NO. NO.
>> YOU KNOW, MY OPINION DON'T MEAN NOTHING.
>> That's right.
>> But anytime YOU SAY YOU'RE THE CHILD OF GOD, >> AMEN.
>> and you submit to Almighty God.
>> Yes, sir.
>> I DON'T CARE HOW MANY DAYS YOU PRAY.
>> You can go to all the CHURCHES IN A MOSQUE IN THE WORLD.
>> That's right.
>> If you don't believe what is written.
>> That's right.
>> Going to the mosque ain't worth a dime.
Going to the church is ain't worth the dime. That's right.
>> If you don't believe what's written, >> that's right.
>> We having the same spirit of >> That's right. [applause] >> The scriptures teachers us we have >> back in 2 Corinthians 4 and at verse 13.
>> What is it?
>> We having the same spirit of faith.
>> Oh, I wish the brother would have stayed.
>> AMEN.
[applause] SO THE BROTHER HAD TO GO.
>> BUT IF THERE IS ANY OTHER MINISTERS, >> any other ones, that's right.
>> That's right.
>> FROM THE NATION OF ISLAM, >> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> that would like to come up here and join me now.
>> AMEN.
>> AND PROVE BY THE scriptures Allah created HIMSELF FROM TRIPLE DARKNESS.
TAKE THE PODIUM. Yes sir.
>> The invitation is open.
>> How you feeling, brother? Yes, sir.
>> You You come to prove that, brother?
>> I come to straighten things out.
>> You want to straighten things out?
>> All right, brother. You could come at the microphone over here.
[applause] We want somebody to stand for the nation.
>> Amen.
>> Now, we'll let the brothers get situated.
>> But I believe it's only fair.
>> It is only fair.
>> Amen.
Because the brother had to go and I respect he had to go.
>> I ain't going nowhere.
>> Amen.
>> AMEN.
[applause] >> I AM FIRM [screaming] ON WHAT I believe.
>> That's right.
>> I will settle >> That's right.
>> on what I believe.
>> Amen. And I won't back down from no ONE ON THIS EARTH. THAT'S RIGHT.
>> From what God said.
>> Amen.
[applause] Amen.
>> IF STANDING FOR GOD COST YOU YOUR LIFE, STAND FOR WHAT'S WRITTEN.
>> AMEN.
NOW, >> any other Muslims from the Nation of Islam that are ministers who would love to come up and show us where God created himself out of triple doctors. We don't want words thrown around.
>> No, no.
>> We want to see what's written. We're glad to have Minister Marvin Muhammad from Mississippi.
[applause] Let me say this before I turn the microphone over to him. This brother and myself will be IN DIALOGUE TOMORROW.
AMEN. SO, you don't want to miss it at the address you see on the telecast, 2431 Frankfurt Avenue tomorrow morning. You can come in between 12:30 and you better come early to get a seat. And me and my brother here is going to get into further dialogue about the teachings of the Nation of Islam. Let us now hear from Minister Marvin Muhammad. [applause] IN THE name of Allah, the beneficent, the most merciful, the truthful, and the most just.
I greet all of you in the greeting words of peace.
Salam. Peace be onto you all.
I um I didn't come here this evening with the intentions of getting up here because I was expecting to hear um Minister Rodney Muhammad.
>> Yes, sir.
>> And um Apostle uh Jennings have a dialogue with one another.
But since they were not here >> Oh, they were. You just missed them.
I decided I would come up.
>> Yes.
>> Um, first of all, I'm not a a member of the Nation of Islam under Minister Lewis Farrakhan. I'm I am the leader and the teacher of the new Nation of Islam.
Um, and our headquarters is in Mississippi.
And, uh, I'm not up here to talk about how low down white people are.
I'm um that is not the reason I came up here. I came up here to first of all uh give you some understanding from the scriptures that uh the honorable Elijah Muhammad based what he said to us on.
First of all, the honorable Elijah Muhammad did not say that Allah created himself from darkness.
>> What?
>> That's the just just a moment. Just a moment.
People people may have understood him to mean that, but that's not what he said.
I brought a a a book, the album. Uh, when my brothers bring my briefcase up here, you got the key to the van. I just gave it to the Well of you out there got the keys to my brother's van. Y'all get it.
>> The brother said that the honorable Elijah Muhammad didn't teach it. I just gave a brother the key to the >> and if the honorable Elijah Muhammad didn't teach it, >> where did it come from?
[applause] Is >> that right?
>> Go ahead, brother. I uh now I I want to say this to to all of you.
One of the things that God said and I I I got my Bible in my Holy Quran, but it's in the van cuz like I said, I wasn't planning on standing up here.
>> You want to take this, brother?
>> Uh brother is good at finding over in the in the uh >> any scripture you want >> in the scriptures in the Holy Bible.
>> Yes, sir.
>> Right here.
>> [applause] >> And everyone please give the brother your undivided attention.
>> All right. Now uh in the sixth chapter of Proverbs Allah says something that he hates.
>> Yes.
>> Six things actually seven.
>> Right.
>> And it it reads as follows. Now I want you to understand something. When I accepted the teachings of Islam, I did not accept the teachings of Islam because of the the fad or or something of that. I I accepted the teachings of Islam because of the meaning of the word Islam.
>> All right. The the the meaning of the word Islam is entire submission to the will of God.
>> Yes.
>> That's not just something that was made up. I looked it up. It's in the dictionary.
So, it's not it's not like like I'm just uh uh following something just to be following it. And the word of God. Yes, sir.
>> Brother, I'm I'm going to take my time cuz I want you to understand me.
>> That's right.
the the word of God when when we say entire submission to the will of God. Well, the [clears throat] same way that when you and I walk into a restaurant, we will sit down and a waiter will come over there to our table and he will say, "May I help you?"
Now, in order for him to help you, you have to tell him how.
And when you tell him what you want, it's his job or duty to go and do what you want. Now you are expressing your will through your word. And if you want TO KNOW WHAT GOD'S will is, you got to look in his word.
>> Exactly.
>> So now that's that's what that's what we going to get straight today.
At least begin getting it straight.
>> I mean, you can't teach nobody the whole history of the of the world or the universe in no few hours. And you certainly can't get acquainted with God that that easy.
>> No sir.
>> I heard the minister say once, we not talking about somebody that's from the hood.
>> That's right.
>> God, the the honorable Elijah Muhammad said, getting acquainted with God is not like getting acquainted with the common fool.
So you you can't just open up God's word like you open up something that uh uh uh the the the scholars so-called scholars and scientists of this world uh wrote you know how you you can get a book from uh uh any college or university and you can open it up and if you don't understand it you can go over there to one of those professors and he if he has an associate degree or PhD degree, he can open up a book that he didn't write and he can start telling YOU WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT.
BUT GOD DON'T HAVE NO ASSOCIATE.
SO IN ORDER TO GET GOD'S WORD, THE UNDERSTANDING of it, IF HE DON'T GIVE IT TO YOU, YOU DON'T HAVE IT.
>> EXACTLY. SO THE BOOK SAYS TO HIM WHOM ALLAH GIVES NO LIGHT HE HAVE NO light and and uh the this is the thing that most OF US HAVE MESSED UP ON.
You see IF WE COULD GUIDE OURSELVES THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES THEN THE SCRIPTURES WOULD NOT HAVE SAID WHEN HE COME HE WILL GUIDE YOU >> AT LEAST TRUST IN WHO? NOT YOURSELF.
TRUST IN THE LORD WITH WHAT? [screaming] WITH ALL YOUR HEART.
>> AND THAT AIN'T TALKING ABOUT THIS HEART HERE. THAT AIN'T no that don't do nothing but pump physical blood.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THIS IS YOUR HEART.
>> THAT'S THE HEART OF THE HUMAN BEING.
>> AND WHEN IT SAY TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL YOUR heart and lean NOT [screaming] TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING OF HIS word because your thoughts are not his thoughts.
The only way that this brother or myself or any of you could say something and like if he says something because he and I are both human beings then in that sense we are equal as men.
There's certain things that one man can say that any man can understand and explain >> because we are all men.
>> See, you have no patience.
>> You can't you can't teach people, >> brother. I don't mean to cut you off, but they're trying to put us on a strict time limit. So, what we want to do is kind of get into this triple darkness thing.
>> Well, >> that's what we want to do. We want way to get into that. [applause] >> Well, let me let me say this to you.
>> By that way, you you and I have time tomorrow.
>> Okay. All right, >> let me say this to you.
>> Yes.
>> When you when you look at the words triple darkness in the first place, we all know that in the beginning of this I got a question for you. Who created matter?
>> God create all >> Oh yeah.
>> So you don't believe 0 plus 0 is zero?
If there was ever a time when there was nothing in this universe, that's what would be here. Now, >> now I I'm not talking something off the top of my head. The scripture says that you turn to uh Matthew and around the what is that the or is it Luke the 14th chapter?
Please everybody listen. Everybody listen. Let's listen. Brothers and sisters, just a moment.
>> I tell you what, at least the >> We going to get in this. We going to get into this tomorrow, but I'm going to touch on this right now.
>> Yes. Yes. And >> Okay. In John, in John the 3 chapter, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, and he told Nicodemus, this is the third chapter of of John, and Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about uh being born again.
>> Yeah.
>> Now Jesus I'm going to start at the third verse.
>> Come on, brother.
>> He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
>> Now Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he's old?
>> Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
And Jesus answered and said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. MARVEL NOT THAT I said unto thee, you must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, and canst not tell from whence it cometh, or whether it goeth." Nicodemus answered and said unto him, "How can these things be?"
Jesus answered and said, "Art thou a master?
ART THOU A MASTER OF ISRAEL AND KNOWEST NOT THESE THINGS?" COME ON, BROTHER.
MEAN YOU DON'T KNOW THIS. THEN HE SAID, "VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO THEE, we speak that which we do know, and testify that which we have seen." And you receive not our witness. Now if I HAVE TOLD YOU EARTHLY THINGS, IF I HAVE TOLD YOU EARTHLY truth and you HAVE NOT BELIEVED, HOW THE HOW ANYBODY GOING TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT HEAVENLY THINGS.
Come on.
>> AND ANYBODY IN HERE THAT WANT TO SAY MATTER WAS CREATED. YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT IN THE SCRIPTURE. COME ON. YOU CAN SHOW WHERE MATTER WAS FORMED, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IT WAS CREATED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT.
AND NEITHER CAN YOU SHOW THAT THERE WAS EVER A TIME WHEN THERE WAS NO LIGHT IN THIS UNIVERSE.
YOU CAN THE SCRIPTURE DOES SAY THAT THE LIGHT SHINED IN DARKNESS BUT THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT BUT IT DON'T NEVER SAY THAT THERE WAS NO LIGHT BECAUSE IF THERE WAS no light there was no God. So you're saying, brother, not cutting you off, that the Nation of Islam is incorrect by >> No, I'm saying that THAT ANYBODY WHO SAY THAT THERE WAS EVER A time when there was no light in the universe is incorrect.
>> All right. So your uh brother who used to follow, when did you come under the leadership of the honorable Elijah?
>> In 1973.
>> 1973. And you're saying the honorable Elijah Muhammad didn't teach that God created himself from darkness.
>> No, that you can't make nothing from darkness.
>> All right. So let me ask you this. You was a Muslim minister, correct? I'm the son of man.
>> You a minister of Islam?
>> I am the son of man.
>> All right. Your religion is Islam?
>> I know exactly what I'm saying. Is your religion Islam?
>> Yes, sir.
>> All right. Then if you you know, don't be scared to say it. Say it.
>> Yes, sir.
[applause] >> This is the thing.
A belief.
If the honor Elijah Muhammad didn't teach that God created himself from darkness, do you believe that God created himself from darkness as a Muslim? God is self created. And the scripture says that, but most people don't understand what it what it's talking about.
>> All right. I tell you what.
>> Okay. The scripture says, okay, uh turn to the uh that sixth chapter that you quoted.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Go here.
>> And the surah. This is the we going to start at the first first verse.
>> Proverbs.
>> No surah.
>> The uh the holy Quran.
>> All right. Okay.
Everyone listen good. He going to show us where it's written that God created himself. Listen good. All right. Okay.
This is the Quran surah 6.
>> All right.
>> Go ahead, brother.
>> It says in the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful.
>> What verse you reading on brother? from starting at the first verse.
>> All right, brother. Go ahead.
>> Praise be to Allah who created the heavens and the earth and made darkness and light.
>> Okay.
Now, who made light?
>> God did.
>> Okay. Now, turn to chapter 24 of the Holy Quran.
You know, you know what the scripture says about studying?
>> It says just a moment.
>> That's amen.
>> Just a moment.
>> I don't mean to cut you off, but we only time.
>> I'm I'm going to I'm going to >> You and I can use our time tomorrow. We just want to get right to the core.
>> Right to the core. That's what we want to do. [applause] >> You know, we don't >> Now, who I'm going to ask I'm going to ask you again now. Now, do you really believe in the scriptures?
>> Oh, yes. I believe in the scriptures.
All I want is the scripture that says God created himself. Now the Holy Quran says >> and the Bible says it too. Where >> the Bible says, >> I formed the light.
>> Yes.
>> And create darkness.
>> Yes.
>> Now, are you saying that myth?
>> No. No. Just a moment. I'm going to let you I'm going to let I'm going to let the scripture say.
>> All right. Come on, brother. The scripture says Allah is the light.
Now if he said, "I made the light."
>> Yes.
>> Or I created the light.
>> Yes.
>> And then it turns around and says, "He is the light."
>> Yes.
>> My lord.
>> All right. He don't know what he's doing.
[applause] >> All right. Listen, >> this is going this is going to be interesting.
>> And the often say in the telecast get the language of the Bible. That's two different kinds of light.
>> That's right.
>> ALLAH MADE THE LIGHT. WHAT WAS THE LIGHT THAT HE MADE was referring to himself?
>> No.
>> Cuz see the light that refers to he made the light is not talking about something eternal. But when YOU SAY ALLAH IS THE LIGHT that's eternal. The light that that's the true quot that Allah made goes out >> and come back which is what? Daylight.
Sunlight. NOW I'M GLAD >> JUST A MOMENT. IT'S LIKE just a [applause] moment.
>> Just a moment.
>> Now I'm glad.
>> Just a minute. Hold it, brother. I'm very glad when you say >> that you understand that there are two different types of light.
>> Oh, when you say Allah, >> just a minute, brother. Just a minute.
>> When you say Allah is light, >> right?
>> WHAT? WHY WOULD GOD BEAR THE TITLE LIGHT?
>> That's right.
>> That's the question.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
GOD BEARS THE TITLE light for a reason.
>> That's right.
>> Why? He is light IN MAN TO GUIDE MAN FROM DARKNESS, FROM IGNORANCE, FROM STUPIDITY, FROM FOOLISHNESS, FROM FALLING.
>> AMEN. OKAY.
[applause and cheering] >> LISTEN.
>> AMEN.
>> LISTEN. [applause] NOW, you going to let me answer that?
SCRIPTURE SAYS >> my uh minister brother here from the Nation of Islam say he would like to clear up something in reference to master Farad Muhammad. All right. Okay, brother.
>> First of all, before I uh go into anything, we are taught to seek refuge in Allah against Satan the accursed.
Before I go into defense of master Farad Muhammad to whom praise is due forever, I will say one thing. Minister Radi Muhammad called me from the dunya and min and Muslims know what that mean. He called me from drinking, smoking, lying, cheating and stealing. So in essence, I owe the spirit that's in that brother because I can't defend him. He can defend himself. I cannot defend the honorable Elijah Muhammad. Minister Farrakhan has done that well, especially when he called a million to come to Washington and you came and we thank you for that. Secondly, I'm here to present a total of $200,000 certified money verified and will be released from the UCCC1 account at the Secretary of State. We will forward that money. I have $100,000 to the first church of our Lord Jesus Christ who will accept that money.
[applause] I also have a $100,000 certified tender payment to Muhammad's Moss number 12.
Who will accept that on their behalf?
Come up and accept this. the path and we will make sure that this is forwarded to them. I'm here in defense of Master Farad Muhammad and I will give that defense. I will challenge any Sunni Muslim, any Muslim, any Christian, any Hebrew Israelite, any one from the first CHURCH OF OUR LORD JESUS Christ to come forth and we will put up $100,000 and let the tapes roll and let everybody take witness that we will challenge you in your religion, in your way of life to come forth and show that in 30 days with your religion that you can establish a independent RELIGIOUS NATION FOR US AS A people so that your children and your daughters will no longer have to be pro prosecuted in false courts that you WON'T HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE and your vehicles are stolen.
Excuse me. We challenge you to come forth that you can ESTABLISH THIS AND I WILL CHALLENGE HIM on national TV anywhere he say that your religion cannot bring A INDEPENDENT RELIGIOUS NATION FOR US SO THAT WE CAN STOP BEING FALSELY ARRESTED FALSELY UM TRIED THAT OUR VEHICLES AND OUR PROPERTIES WHILE YOU SITTING HERE THEY PUTTING YOUR MOTHERS AND YOUR GRANDMOTHERS OUT IN THE STREET with these false YOUR RELIGION CANNOT BRING AN INDEPENDENT NATION IT'S SO GOOD.
>> EXCUSE ME, BROTHER. Excuse me. Listen.
>> Uh, listen.
>> Uh, >> brother, if you don't be orderly, we going to escort you out.
>> All right. Now, >> that's nothing.
>> That's nothing.
>> We about substance.
>> Give him that.
>> We don't want to give that. Give him that.
>> [applause] [applause] >> I'm not a hoe. You can't buy me. AMEN.
[applause] AMEN.
[applause] We want to have some brief remarks from the iman because we on a very strict >> All right, we got a few more minutes.
Come on, brother. Let us give him our underbody attention, please. Go ahead.
I began by first seeking refuge with Allah from evil Shayan, the curse. As I'm sure we all must realize that his presence is here today.
But as the truth has to be told and as our reverend here said this is not for entertainment. It is about trying to achieve the truth.
I want to bear witness to the truth today of what our minister here have said concerning the truth that has been revealed in the holy Quran to clear up the question as far as Allah's creation. Allah clears it of himself in the holy Quran in surah 112 where he says one where Allah says say he who Allah is one the absolute the eternal he begets not nor is he begotten and there is none like unto him [applause] SIR >> [applause] >> I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT I've read in the holy Quran where Allah subhana wa ta'ala has said that the closest in faith to the Muslim IS THE CHRISTIAN because Allah has softened their hearts to the truth.
And as was said in history in Islamic history when our noble prophet Muhammad sallallah.aii wasallam sent a contingency of Muslims to Abbiscinia to seek refuge with the Christian king there from the persecution of the pagans. The Christian king himself said I see no difference in what is said to me today between Christianity and Islam.
And he drew a line in the ground. I have to bear witness that what this minister said today concerning Islam is the truth.
[applause] >> [applause] [applause] >> But in keeping with the truth, I must also call our brother and I'm going to say he's my brother to a higher understanding of the truth as was revealed by Allah subhana wa ta'ala when he said if you indeed love Allah then love Muhammad.
He says, "Love Muhammad because Muhammad SALLALLAHU ALAIHI WASALLAM, HE CALLS YOU to the truth of what Allah subhana wa ta'ala revealed. That which was with Isaam, Jesus, that which was with Musa, MOSES, THAT WHICH WAS WITH IBRAIM, IBRAIMIS."
>> So I call my brother to study Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. I call everyone who believes in the truth of Isaam to study Muhammad and study what Muhammad sallallahu alaihi WASALLAM HAS BROUGHT CONCERNING ISAAM AND YOU WILL FIND THAT there's no difference of what we are saying except some of the things that were changed and misappropriated through the evil of men because of their deceiving men and want meant to follow them. I'm not here to dispute with our brother. I I'm not going to dispute with him because HE PREACHED GOOD TODAY AND WHAT HE SAID WAS THE TRUTH AND HE brought and he put the light out.
[applause] HE PUT THE LIGHT OUT A FALSEHOOD.
>> He put the light out OF A FALSEHOOD.
ALLAH subhana t says many TIMES HE USES HIS SERVANTS TO BRING ABOUT HIS WILL.
ALLAH HAS USED THIS SERVANT OF HIS TO BRING ABOUT HIS WILL. HE EXPOSED THE FALSEHOOD. [applause] Allah says he begets not nor is he begotten.
No Muslim could stand here today and not feel compassion for what our brother has said concerning the truth. We have to give it to him.
BUT I WOULD LIKE AGAIN to call our brothers [applause] to CONVERSE WITH MUSLIMS OF knowledge because as the brother said, you don't have to be an Arab to understand and follow Islam. No, you don't have to be an Arab. But Allah says, verely he revealed the Quran in Arabia and reveal he revealed it in a language because Arabic was a pure language. But Allah has allowed the Arabic language to be translated so that we may understand it all over the world.
But there's an explanation of the Quran called the taps. And this taps was the explanation that the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam explained to the companions who he taught the Quran to. We I invite our brother to study the taps so that he may get the pure understanding of what was revealed concerning the Quran. Alhamdulillah.
Everything he said concerning the Quran was correct. And may Allah bless him and lead him to Islam.
And I don't SAY THAT WITH ANY DISRESPECT. I SAY THAT AS AS AS YOUR BROTHER who say that you are. You are the only one that I can say today that is the people of the book whom Allahh says was revealed to Musa Moses and to Isa Jesus >> sallallahu alaihi wasallam. So again we thank you brother.
>> Okay. And uh and this is from our hearts.
>> Yes sir.
>> Because we we Muslims are here and we bore witness to the stamping out of falsehood.
>> Yes sir.
>> There's no such thing as God being a man.
>> [applause and cheering] >> There's no such thing as God being a man. AND I AND I DON'T SAY [applause] I don't say this to attack Elijah Muhammad or to attack Minister Farrakhine. I say this because this is the truth.
>> Because this is the truth. And I'm bound to give the truth even if it's against myself. So I don't disrespect and I don't mean no harm to no one. I'm just here confirming the truth that our brother has brought here today concerning the scriptures of the Bible and of the Quran. So we say alhamdulillah we praise Allah and we thank the minister here for bringing the truth to a matter of falsehood and we invite everyone to study Islam in its purest form and study Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. He came with the Quran and if our minister here believes that in what he read of the Quran that it is upon him to investigate the life of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and how he is in relationship to Moses and Jesus. So my brother and I will sayalam [applause] [applause] Brothers and sisters, we glad for all of you taking the time out to come.
And the thing that have made us successful in studying the Quran, the Imam didn't know it, but we are already in study of the Quran. For to properly know a religion, you have to study it.
>> This is why we're able to deal with the Nation of Islam. And I believe that I may quote out of Quran that brother Moos often quote and I love to hear him say it. The Quran talks about how we hurl truth at them and knock out their brains.
[laughter and applause] Bible says thine hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies.
>> We believe truth.
See, and if the Muslim know how to conduct themselves orderly and he's supposed TO BE IN THE CHURCH, >> AMEN.
>> He should be able to know how to conduct himself orderly.
We told all the imams and ministers, we thank you for taking the time out to come. We wish Rodney Muhammad would have stayed because we had some questions to ask him >> that would have helped everybody.
>> Amen.
>> Okay, let's dive right into this. Here is our road map for unpacking this complex disagreement. We'll cover one, the rules of engagement. Two, scripture versus opinion. [music] Three, the origin of God. Four, unpacking triple darkness. And finally, five, theological accountability. Section one, the rules of engagement, establishing common ground and interfaith dialogue. Before diving into their stark differences, the participants first had to establish how they would even debate at all. To set the stage, a representative for the Nation of Islam brought up the literal definition of their faith. Islam [music] means entire submission to the will of God. This is a crucial starting point, right? Because it highlights that understanding what God actually [music] wants, his will, is paramount to literally everyone in the room. You can't submit to a will that you don't understand. The Nation of Islam representative used [music] this perfectly grounded analogy to brilliantly illustrate the concept. They said, "Think about when you go to a restaurant. [music] A waiter comes up and asks how they can help you. To get what you want, you have to speak your will to the waiter [music] and the waiter acts on your word." So, the logic follows. If you want to know what God's will is, you have to look in his word.
And going into this, both sides fundamentally agreed on this premise.
Section two, scripture versus opinion.
Testing doctrines by the written word.
If God's will is found in his word, how do we test what people teach about him?
Well, this is where Pastor Gino Jennings lays out his primary thesis. He argues that religious teachings absolutely [music] cannot be based on emotion, popularity, or personal opinion. He anchors this firmly on the biblical text from second Corinthians, highlighting the phrase according as it is written. Jennings foundational argument here is [music] that true faith must strictly align with what was written by divinely inspired prophets. If it isn't written, he argues it shouldn't be taught as divine truth.
So he lays down some pretty strict parameters for the debate. No self-made ideas, human opinions hold zero authority when discussing the creator.
Prophets were moved by God, not themselves. And importantly for this specific interfaith dialogue, Jennings insists this standard has to apply equally to both the Bible and the Quran.
Basically, if you claim a doctrine, you have to prove it directly from the scriptures. Section three, the origin of God, the core theological conflict.
Having established the rules of relying on scripture, the debate tackles a profound disagreement over the very nature of God Almighty. Did God create himself out of darkness? This is the provocative question that ignited the ideological clash in that room. [music] It's an incredibly heavy concept, and as we'll see, the two sides have radically different answers. We start with the Nation of Islam's teaching derived from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and articulated here by Minister Lewis Farrakhan during Savior's Day in 1997.
The teaching states that God did indeed self-create. It posits that Allah created himself out of the material of darkness, beginning as a spinning atom or a drop of blood, very much like how human life begins in the darkness of the womb. Now, what's really interesting about this juxtiposition is how starkly these theological viewpoints contrast.
On one side, the Nation of Islam teaches a process of divine self-creation from darkness, meaning darkness actually preceded God. Conversely, Pastor Jennings argues that God is strictly eternal, existed before all things, and actually created darkness himself. To back up his position, Pastor Jennings turns directly to the text. He points to Isaiah 45:7 where God declares, "I form the light and create darkness." Jennings argues logically that if God created darkness, [music] then darkness could not have possibly existed before him, right? Nor could it have possessed any power over him for [music] him to sort of borrow from in order to create himself. He anchors his stance further on God's eternal nature using Hebrews 7:3. He really emphasizes the phrase having neither beginning of days nor end of life. to Jennings. If God has no beginning of days, that completely rules out any process of self-creation. A God that was created, by definition, has to have a beginning. Section four, unpacking triple darkness, biological metaphors versus divine origins. How do we make sense of this? Both sides actually look at the specific phrase triple darkness found in [music] the Quran, but their interpretations are completely different. Jennings uses two verses from the Quran to make his point.
Surah 6 states that Allah made the darkness. Meanwhile, Surah 39 says, "God makes humans in the wombs of their mothers in three veils of darkness or triple darkness." Jennings harmonizes these texts to argue that the Quran agrees with the Bible here. God created darkness and the triple darkness is purely a reference to human biology, not the origin of God. He breaks this down into a chronological biological explanation in three steps. First, the seed enters the darkness of the human body. Second, it penetrates the protective wall of the egg. Third, human life is formed. Jennings roots this profound scriptural metaphor in everyday human reproduction. He argues it's God using his light and wisdom to create us in the darkness of the womb rather than God being created in darkness himself.
Section five, theological accountability, knowing God to know self. We've seen the arguments. We've looked at the texts. Now, here's where the event took [music] a really surprising turn. After Pastor Jennings made his case, an attending Sunni Islamic imam stepped up to the microphone. To the surprise of many in the room, he publicly agreed with Pastor Jennings scriptural breakdown. The Imam cited Surah 112 of the Quran, quoting, "He neither beggets nor is born." He used his own holy text to confirm Jennings point that the true God is eternal, not born and not self-created from darkness. So zooming out, the overarching lessons here extend way beyond theology. First, never rely purely on human opinions. Second, understanding yourself really requires a strong foundation. Third, [music] all doctrines and everyday claims for that matter should be tested against primary sources. And lastly, as both sides demonstrated [music] by sitting and talking together, passionate disagreement should never lead to hatred or violence. Ultimate accountability to the text is what truly matters. Which brings us to a deeply powerful question to leave you with today. Do you believe your convictions simply because you were told to or because you've actually searched for the written truth yourself? It's a real challenge to apply this kind of critical analysis to our own deeply held beliefs.
Thank you so much for joining me for this explainer and keep asking the big questions.
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