Daring to be Different: Part 1 | Hebrew Voices #244 - NehemiasWall.com

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]If I had to respect uh Moses or Rabbi Eleazar, I'm going with Moses, right?

[00:00:05]And the point is that they they seem to not understand the hierarchy here, which is that you're going to have to throw someone under the bus. Either it's going to be Rashi or it's going to be Noah. I rather throw Rashi under the bus than throw Noah under the bus. Apparently, you rather throw Noah under the bus than Rashi. So, I think it comes down to that it's impossible to maintain allegiance to the written Torah and the oral Torah when they contradict each other.

[00:00:30]Shalom and welcome to Hebrew Voices. I'm here today once again with Israel Horowitz. He was raised ultraorththodox and found out in his words that the written Torah is the way to go and has been teaching and practicing written Torah ever since. Shalom, Israel. How are you?

[00:00:48]>> Shalom. It's good to see you again.

[00:00:50]>> Yeah, it's good to have you back on the program. We had a really interesting conversation last time. Got some really good feedback. Um, so I I think one of the big developments since we last spoke is you got married. Am I right?

[00:01:03]>> That would definitely be it. Yes.

[00:01:05]>> So I I would So what I should say as a Jew is Masletove, but that's a very problematic statement that we can discuss if you'd like.

[00:01:12]>> Good luck.

[00:01:13]>> Uh, well, masletove is good constellation. Mazal is is a constellation in ancient Hebrew. And what the alternative is is simtove, which is good omen, >> right? You see mazle tofu cam mean to cfu mazleto. Right? So it's good consolation, good good omen and omen meaning like a comet or something like that, right?

[00:01:32]>> So it just go goes to show how deeply rooted um let's say superstition is in in Jewish culture. Um >> Oh yeah, zodiacs, everything. They got it all. The zodiac signs. Um, yeah, sometimes hard to distinguish between Judaism and Eastern religions.

[00:01:54]>> I'm I uh I gave a lecture at a an academic lecture a couple years back and I'm writing a paper about it when I when I get around to it and and I cite there um this rabbi I want to say from the 12th century or so, maybe it's 13th, I don't remember. It's been a while. And and he's he's discussing the question about whether the constellations actually affect us.

[00:02:16]And he says,"Well, look, if the constellations affected how you live your life, then there'd be more Jews in certain professions." And the fact like because there's Jews born every month of the year and the fact that there's no Jews in these particular professions and that's my interest there because he's talking about parchment, right? So he's like, "How come you don't have any Jewish parchment makers if there's Jews born every month of the year?" But he's got to justify it like you know cuz to his Jewish audience he's speaking to it's like these are just givens that the consolations affect us. And we have this passage in Jeremiah. Maybe we can discuss that. It's a very famous passage. Jeremiah 10. Uh it's Jeremiah 10 uh well he starts in 101. I'll read the JPS here. The word here. Let me actually share my screen here. Uh show people what I have here.

[00:03:04]Um so he has uh hear the word which the Lord has spoken to you oh house of Israel. Thus says the Lord do not learn the to go the way of the nations and not to be dismayed by portance in the sky.

[00:03:17]Let the nations be dismayed by them for the laws of the nations are delusions.

[00:03:22]And then he starts talking about idols, you know, statues and stuff. But this is um this is, you know, Deuteronomy 18 talks about not learning the the ways of the nations, the uh divination and and and such. And so Jeremiah is alluding back to Jer uh or directly referring to Deuteronomy 18 about learning the ways of the nations. And so they look in the skies and they see an omen and they see, you know, constellations and they think, "Oh, okay. That's it's going to be bad because it's a bad constellation."

[00:03:52]>> And he said, "Those those are those are nons. They're heavil They're they're vapor.

[00:03:56]>> Mhm. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, you see so much of that superstition. Um it's Yeah, it's kind of concerning 100%. Obviously, the Torah itself cautions against all forms of witchcraft, superstition, worship of the constellations and things like that. Um and ultimately these ideas are not even found within the Torah or the Tanakh for that matter. Um, yet you have that as a mainstream belief in Judaism and you wonder how did that development even take place. If we're told this is the foundation of your religion and you're actually not supposed to change it and then suddenly you look thousands of years down the road and they've completely deviated and it's been assimilated into the religion.

[00:04:42]So, I mean, one of the examples Jeremiah brings it up as well with the queen of heaven, uh, being worshiped by the Israelites, and then you have on Shabbat, for example, they're welcoming the the queen of Shabbat and the, uh, the Shabbat bride. Uh, and even within the prayers, they sometimes refer to God in the feminine. I don't know if you you've seen that, like they say, >> give me an example of that. I don't know that off top. I know there's a passage in in numbers where it's been argued that God is feminine in one verse, but that's a bit complicated, but but give me that from the prayers. I'm not familiar with that.

[00:05:13]>> So, for example, they have a prayer called which is when they say bless you God, they say, so instead of saying they say or very often like they they'll use um feminine ways to describe um >> God.

[00:05:29]>> So, I think in the original context there is just an Aramaicism. In other words, l is the masculine um uh singular you. So here for the audience and you know in Spanish they have singular and plural you unlike in well I guess in English we have in spoken English we have you and and and you guys where I come from and in the south it's all it's all y'all or y'all. So in Hebrew there's not only singular and plural. Uh there's masculine and feminine. So there's four forms of you. So what what what Israel is referring to is l is in standard let's say um biblical Hebrew L is feminine but in um but in later let's say rabbitical Hebrew you have a heavy influence of Aramaic and L is just you for masculine as well. So I'm not sure do they are there people who say that that's feminine or or >> yeah that's why so that I didn't know.

[00:06:19]>> So they're misunderstanding the so there's different linguistic layers within Hebrew literature and they're misunderstanding they're mixing the linguistic layers. They do that quite a bit.

[00:06:28]>> Okay. Well, that I mean that's good to know. It's good to know that it's just an Aramaic thing because I was told, you know, sometimes we refer to God in the feminine based off of context. Were speaking to the femininity of God or something like that or the >> So, so here what you have is is some modern rabbi who doesn't know Hebrew linguistics. And let's talk a minute about your upbringing because in my upbringing I was also raised with an ultraorththodox education and grammar dickduk was something that women did. It was it was beneath men cuz men were studying Talmud. And I look back and I'm like, boy, no wonder they were so ignorant of of language um because they they didn't consider it worthwhile. But how can you even understand the Talmud if you don't understand the language, let alone the Tanakh? So, and here's an example where they're they're they're looking back uh through the lens of Cabala at different linguistic layers and trying to find some some cababalistic features like God is feminine.

[00:07:25]um and coming to weird conclusions.

[00:07:28]Let's put it that way. So, all right.

[00:07:29]So, tell us about your upbringing. So, so you where where were you raised? I don't know if we discussed that last time.

[00:07:36]>> Yeah. Oh, we discussed it a bit, but I was raised in in Los Angeles. So, it's not really the hub of ultraorththodox Judaism. Um but >> a lot people don't realize Los Angeles is something like Am I wrong? There's like hundreds of thousands of Israelis, not just the Jews.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah.

[00:07:51]>> In the LA metropolitan area.

[00:07:53]>> Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot a lot of Israelis. There's a ton of Jews here.

[00:07:57]Um, and there's Orthodox community as well. Uh, community. I was raised in the ultraorththodox community in the hidic community as well. And >> pretty much going through that, I saw a lot of benefits. Um, more more because of their extremism. And I I say it because I actually for a time I didn't value the extremism, but but now I I tend to value it a bit more. Uh because >> you're going to have to explain that.

[00:08:27]But let's back up. What is for the audience who doesn't know I have to explain this to my wife sometimes that like last week she's like wait ultraorththodox isn't isn't that the same thing? So so let's make do some uh order here.

[00:08:42]What is the what is ultraorththodox?

[00:08:44]What isic?

[00:08:46]Which cassidic variety were you uh um um educated in?

[00:08:50]>> Yeah. I mean again the to an outsider these distinctions are not that significant because they're really not.

[00:08:56]It's all variations of the same thing.

[00:08:59]Within the bubble of orthodoxy they're definitely claimed to be big uh differentiations between these groups.

[00:09:08]But they really are pretty much the same groups of kared ultraorththodoxic.

[00:09:13]They're all um very tight-knit, ultraobservant of what they call the Torah, which is really the Talmud and the Halaka and the Cabala and all that.

[00:09:24]Um but yeah, I mean the differences according to them would be that while the yeshiva people put more of an emphasis on study, theidic people put more of an emphasis on the spiritual connection to God, which is through prayer and song. So again, it's it's molded itself and morphed into each other a lot. So I really don't see much of the difference. It almost comes down more to garb and like you know the the >> not almost meaning in some cases it's literally garb. But but so so I I'll give you my understanding of the of the of the different um let's say uh uh persuasions.

[00:10:03]>> So you have a um a broad let's say this is how it is in Israel more. You have a broad category which is called which is translated as ultraorththodox. Uh kared literally means shakers because they quake or shake before God. It's a it's a a term they lifted from the Tanakh. Um and and they distinguish between um ultraorththodox and modern orthodox. And the difference is historically that the modern orthodox said okay modernity we don't have a problem with that. We'll embrace it and incorporate it into the Orthodox lifestyle. And the ultraorththodox said, "No, everything freezes in time." And and the and the famous phrase uh was anything new is forbidden from the Torah, which is kind of a pun because that it's an ancient phrase, but it's referring to new grain that's eaten before the Omar offering. But but now they're applying it to anything of modernity. So, you look at the ultraorththodox and they're dressed in like 18th century more or less um uh garb or they're wearing hats from the 1920s and you're like why why do you wear those hats? Um, and then if you if you go really deep into the um in into the um uh rabbit hole or the rabbi hole, I suppose, you you'll hear people say, you know, there's there's ancient references to Jewish garb and the kapata, the long uh clothing is what Jews wore in ancient times, which seems extremely unlikely to me. Um but uh in other words they they'll they'll take whatever whenever they were coming out against what was called the enlightenment which the um modern orthodox embraced more or less and the ultraorththodox rejected they're like okay it freezes here in time. If it's, you know, 17, you know, 95 or whatever year it was, we have to continue to dress like it's 1795 with some modifications, right? Meaning the reality is with with if you look into the fine details, fashion changes even even in the last 20, 30 years. But in the broader big scope, they're wearing the big fur hats, the kasidic Jews, because that's what their ancestors wore um you know, hundreds of years ago when the enlightenment started to encroach upon their their um as they saw it upon their control. So you have ultraorthodox and modern orthodox and then in Israel you have something in between which which is uh um half jokingly called khal.

[00:12:24]uh kalis means literally means mustard but it means ultra orthodox national national nationalist or something like this right national religious so you have national religious which is the modern orthodox they wear the knit kipas and people don't realize what a big deal it is whether your keepa your your skull cap is is knitted or if it's made of of a solid piece of whatever um felt or plastic or whatever um it's a really big deal to them um so the modern orthodox or the nitted keepas or also called national religious in Israel and then there's the ultraorththodox and then you have sort of a mix between them um which is becoming more I'd say widespread in Israel now um in yeah and is Israelis tend to be much more extremist than um than Americans so like when I was growing up there were I went to an ultraorththodox school and there were two kids in the class who had televisions in their house I was one of them so all the kids came to my my house to watch television and then condemned me for being an idoltor cuz I had a TV in my house, but they came to my house to watch. So, um yeah. So, in Israel, what I'm told by ultraorththodox is is they have a a computer, a laptop hidden in the back room for their kids to watch videos, right? But if the neighbors find out, the kids will be kicked out of school. Like, I could openly have a television and I was ridiculed, but in Israel, you you have to hide it. So, >> yeah. No, there's there's definitely a lot of that. What's funny about the you cannot have new grain until the OMR offering. I guess we won't be able to change our clothing until they bring the Omar offering. So, >> well, no. So, so >> it's all tied into the Messiah.

[00:14:04]>> So, they've reinterpreted the the concept. In other words, what it's talking about in Leviticus 23, just to give people the background, is is um is you harvest the grain and you're not allowed to eat that. That's called kadash, new grain. Um you can't eat it until the Omar offering is brought. And so the phrase is that which is new is forbidden from the Torah, but only up until the over offering.

[00:14:27]>> Exactly.

[00:14:28]>> Apply it to their way of life.

[00:14:29]>> Yeah. But using the metaphor, there's got to be a point in which the Omr offerings brought and then we can change our clothes. So I don't know.

[00:14:36]>> So you're you're pressing the metaphor.

[00:14:38]No, it's it's a metaphor taken out of context. So >> like like all of the rabbitic uh statements, half >> So tell me about your upbringing. Did did you have a television? Did you um like what was what was your We we didn't have did not have a television. Um but yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the 18th or century garb, which is really just European garb like Polish Hungarian garb, which they claim is holy in some respect. And then they also would tell us how in Egypt the Jewish people did not change their Jewish names and they did not change their Jewish language and they did not change their Jewish clothing.

[00:15:14]>> This is by the way not true. Joseph had an Egyptian name, right? He kept the name Yoseph, but he also had the name um you know Safat Pane, >> right? And we just we just had Purim, which we could talk about. And Esther was Hadassa. Esther was her pagan name, >> right? Yeah. Exactly. So obviously that's not true. Uh but besides for that, they would claim that their, you know, Striml fur hat was equivalent to the Jews not changing their garb in Egypt. Um and whatever. So, and then they would give us drawings in preschool and like when they would give us coloring books, it would have little pictures of Joseph and his brothers with long pis and strials like Jews as biblical figures. So, >> it's clearly >> well. So, I I' I've shared the story of um that when I was a kid, we had the the Passover Hagada and and um you know, the ancient Israelites were dressed in in kasidic garb 100%. that that and look it was how literally do they take that well as a kid you don't know any better right like you're like all right that must be that you know I mean you don't even question it right like what you see today is what must have been in ancient times and this is one of sort of the root awakenings that that I had and it sounds like you had is you're like wait a minute this what we're being told exists today and always existed is kind of it itself is the innovation right so in other words they're against innovation nothing new the the new is forbidden from the Torah, but their whole way of life is an innovation.

[00:16:46]>> Exactly. That gets to what I wanted to say about the extremism part, which is that if you go to that point of extreme, which is we cannot innovate beyond the point that God wants us to innovate. And of course, they claim it's the will of God that you wear a certain hat, which is ridiculous. But if we talk about what the actual will of God is, as defined in the Torah, which you shall not add or subtract to that document, they're actually the innovators by creating 5,000 new laws and concepts and ideologies that are nowhere to be found in the foundational text. So, in one sense, I I was attracted to that hardline stance, and I do think in many ways, they've managed to shield themselves from the problems of secularism. At the same time, as you pointed out, it ends up coming out covertly as they hide the computer in the back room or like they they don't they're not actually able to deal with secularism because they're too afraid of it and they rather avoid it than deal with it head-on.

[00:17:43]>> So, I want to talk about secularism, but go back to your upbringing. So, which kidic sect were you were you like affiliated with or >> It wasn't a particular one because there's not enough in LA. So it was just like a kidic school with all the in LA went there and then there were some non-assidim. So my family >> was family.

[00:18:01]>> No, my family was not kididic. But this was like the most religious school in LA. Um because theidim are obviously upholding the most high standard of >> um you know insulation and all that. Um and it was like a smaller school as well. So yeah, they were speaking Yiddish and everything.

[00:18:21]>> Oh wow. You speak Yiddish?

[00:18:22]>> Mhm. Yeah, I speak.

[00:18:24]>> Wow. Okay. I don't I know like 10 words of Yiddish.

[00:18:27]>> Yeah.

[00:18:27]>> Um or maybe 20 or 30, right? But not I don't know a whole lot of Yiddish. Um so so in my upbringing in my school, most of the people were what they call in Israel Litvish, >> right? Meaning they were um non-assidic ultraorththodox. And I think I had one rebi who was who was no maybe two rebies who were who were like home room teacher rabbis.

[00:18:48]>> Um one was Gur and I couldn't tell you what the other one was. Um but they but they were considered kind of like well we we sort of tolerate them >> but they're you know they're kind of like the spiritual stuff and they and like you said so that so the kidic have an emphasis on spirituality which we should give them some credit for and the uh litish which aren't necessarily from Lithuania but that's the term in Israel that's taken taken hold. the litvach or Lithuanian approach, not necessarily of ethnicity, um it is is more of an intellectual like my father used to say, you know, the amiratim they they you know that they're they're um they're kind of uneducated um peasants, the uh the uh theim and then there's look an exception to the rule which is the um which is kabad which is known uh well maybe we could talk about that a little bit. Kabad or Labavich are known for their intellectual pursuits, but they're kind of like the exception to the rule within the kidic world.

[00:19:49]>> Um, >> yeah, again, it's from the point that I'm at, I just kind of laugh at it all cuz it's so >> minor one half dozen or the other.

[00:19:56]>> It's just it's hilarious. But, um, >> but I think it's important for people to understand what these terms are. Even if if >> look there I mean it's if like it's like you and I if we were to talk about you know the difference between Baptist and um I don't know Southern Baptist and and and American Baptist and I I don't know that I don't know the difference. I won't lie. I don't you know >> I know some jokes about it but that's all I really know. I don't know you know the substance there. I couldn't tell you what the spec look I've spoken to pastors who are pastors of some churches and they don't know the difference.

[00:20:28]They're like well there was an historic split 100 years ago. There's not really any and but sometimes there are profound differences. Right.

[00:20:34]>> But to you and me maybe it's not that different. Right.

[00:20:36]>> Right. Um yeah. So basically pretty much my yeah my father was a of the litish uh discipline. So the yeshiva world but you know he also had like a feel for the kidic view. So okay seeing that the kidic school was >> the most insular um kind of religious school in the city he sent us there. Um but then for high school and post high school I went to the yeshiva the litfish yeshivas. Um so relating more to Lakewood and um Baltimore um and like that whole uh scene whereas you know elementary school was spent more among like um Gore and Sautmer and all these uh different group. So, you said that one of the things you learned that was good from the ultraorththodox was extremism and and uh I want to challenge you on that.

[00:21:26]>> Um >> and and maybe this is just you know I've been doing this for a long time and I've but I was definitely an extremist when I was younger and have come to not tell us what extremism is and why it's a good thing.

[00:21:40]>> I'll tell you what it means. It means that I grew up my entire life uh as a kid always being different than everyone else. Um and and when I walked down the street, I was a little 10-year-old boy with a keepa the size of my head and pis coming down the side of my head and seat seats sticking out. And you know, we knew that Hollywood was ashonda and it was disgusting and you know, the way that in which >> um society operates with the the the just the latent pornography everywhere and all like the imagery and the culture. We knew that it was unholy and that we were different than all that.

[00:22:16]>> And I find myself in my adulthood circling back to that really which is that um it's not wrong you know like society is extremely flawed and when you move past all the traditional values without any care for preserving right the or orthodoxy which I would just say preserve the Torah and you have everything there. Um, but the reality is like you do need to maintain family and you do need to have many children and you do need to maintain marriages and you do need to distance yourself from the promiscuous lifestyle of the rest of the world and you do need to be different than everyone else. What's funny to me is though I realized well even or even even Orthodox Judaism is not good enough you know like I have to be different than them too. So I kind of just find myself take going to the logical conclusion which is like if everyone's wrong maybe you're wrong too.

[00:23:09]You know I guess that's kind of like >> wait who who's you yourself or or the orthodox >> the the ultraorththodox cuz you know I grew up believing that everyone in the world was wrong except for me and and my community of ultraorththodox Jews. And then I said okay fair enough like you make a good case for that. And and when I say wrong I don't mean that everything about everyone is wrong. I just mean that like ultimately the way of the world, the way of say Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, communism, right? All the different isms in the world, they're not they don't measure up to the truth of Judaism then and and Orthodox Judaism. Well, then what about what if orthodox Judaism is wrong, too? And that's kind of where I had to question, which was like, okay, this is pretty ironclad, but at the same time, I'm seeing the same hypocrisy here. I'm seeing the same corruption here um and the same immorality and and again as you pointed out hiding the truth um being afraid to face uh the world and things like that and so just kind of led me to the logical conclusion which is well seems like all institutions are corrupted and uh yours included.

[00:24:19]>> So so this is is something that has been sometimes called the numbers argument and it's a bit ironic. So when when um uh Jews um have these encounters with with Christian missionaries, one of the arguments will be and has historically been well there's over a billion Christians and there's only 15 or 20 million Jews. How can you think you possib like like you're standing against the current of history? History is like this massive river and how do you Jews think you have the the um why would you think you're right? Surely it uh you know a billion a billion people is more likely to be right than the 15 or 20 million. That's their argument, right?

[00:25:00]And of course the Jewish response is well there's a billion Hindus and you don't worship cows and there's a billion Muslims and and you could argue well there's two billion Christians or or you know whatever. We we could we can now start splitting hairs about what the numbers are. But um but the Jewish position has been in these engagements.

[00:25:20]Well, numbers don't matter. But then when you speak out, and I've seen this in your videos on TikTok, you'll get people in the comments will say, well, how do how do you have the gallb to think that you're right and all these rabbis are wrong? Their numbers prove they're right. And it's not just numbers today, but numbers over time really is what they're saying. So, how do you have the to think you're right and all these rabbis are wrong? I'd like a real answer on that. I could tell you how I think that, but I think we probably have different approaches.

[00:25:48]>> Okay. Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing your answer as well. Um, obviously immediately what comes to mind is Exodus 23:2.

[00:25:56]>> Oh, let's read it. I love reading verses.

[00:25:58]>> Yeah. I mean, that's just one of my favorite verses.

[00:26:00]>> Exodus 23:2. And here we got to just tell the audience that I feel like in some of the translations there's a different verse numbering, but no, I'm looking here in King James as the same one. All right. As the Hebrew. Okay.

[00:26:11]>> Good. I like when they're aligned.

[00:26:13]>> Yeah. Sometimes they're like verse or two.

[00:26:15]>> It's so annoying like one verse.

[00:26:16]>> At least according to my software, they're the same verse. Do you have like a Tanakh there you can pull up or computer or something?

[00:26:21]>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I got the >> read that >> got that book right here. Um so yeah, let's >> and this is an important one also to the rabbitical um perspective. In other words, what they do is something very clever. What they do is they take the verse that disproves their entire position and then they plant their flag on that and they say this proves our position.

[00:26:39]>> Yes. It's the out of the out of context verses. It's not just out of context. Of all the verses you could have chosen to prove your position, you pro you chose the one that that disproves it the most.

[00:26:50]>> But that was, as we say in in in Yiddish, Davka, >> uh meaning like, in other words, it was very deliberate that they chose this verse because if they don't, it'll be used against them. So, they're proactively uh um appropriating the verse.

[00:27:03]>> They had to reclaim reclaim it. It's like >> 100% that's what they're doing. They're they're appropriating the very verse that disproves their position. All right. So, let's read that.

[00:27:12]>> Yeah, I just I have to give the example that came to mind when a black people reclaimed the n-word. You know, it's kind of like that.

[00:27:18]>> Okay. I don't know as much about that as you probably do, but okay. I think I that I might be too old for that um cultural reference, but go ahead.

[00:27:27]>> So, we got here um Exodus 23:2. You shall not be after the majority for evils, and you shall not respond over a dispute to turn after the majority to pervert. Right? So clearly in the case of evil and perversion when the majority is wrong do not follow them. Of course the rabbis take the last three words of the verse turn after the majority.

[00:27:50]Right? So after the majority to turn um >> right and they actually distort the meaning of which is really like something like to pervert justice >> and they take it in the sense of leot which you know appears a few words earlier as in to incline and they say you have to incline after the majority.

[00:28:08]Um, and and that's the famous story of Rabbi Eleazar. Did you ever have that story thrown in your face? The oven of Aknai and story of Rabbi Eleazar.

[00:28:15]>> Oh, of course. Yeah, I was told it as >> So, tell that cuz I've shared my experience with that. Tell tell I don't think people realize how important that story is in rabbitical thought.

[00:28:24]>> Yeah, it's extremely important. It marks the departure from prophecy to tall mutism.

[00:28:31]>> Tell the story. Assume nobody knows it.

[00:28:33]>> Yeah. Well, the story is Rabbi Alzar is having this debate with the which is the majority of sages and they're having an argument about this oven, whether it's considered impure, whether you have to smash it based off of Torah law. Uh and he's making the case for his argument and they say, "No, we we're the majority, we rule." And um he says, "Well, I will provide you with miracles." So I don't remember the exact order but essentially he has the walls of the study house the you know cave in as a miracle and they say we don't care and then he goes and he says I'll have this tree get uprooted and the tree gets uprooted and flies away and then he says I have this stream it's flowing downstream it'll go flow the opposite way which is again all these supernatural phenomenons that he's performing to prove his the the truth of his position and they don't buy any of it And finally, a voice of God calls out from the sky and says, "The truth is with Eleazar." And they still don't listen because they say, "The Torah is not in the heavens." Right. Which is also a way of saying, >> which is another verse taken out of context.

[00:29:40]>> Exactly. Another another verse taken out of context, um, which does not have nothing to do with the authority of the rabbis. Um, it has to do with the actually the the individual's ability to process God's will, if you actually point to the the truth of that verse.

[00:29:54]Um, but of course they reject God himself. And then later on in the there's a rabbi who's walking in the forest and he encounters Elijah the prophet who apparently visits earth once in a while according to rabbitic lore.

[00:30:09]Um, and he says, "Well, what did God think about this uh this event?" And he said, "Oh, God, you know, kind of laughed and said, "My my children have won over me, you know." And God was happy. He was happy that we overcame him um with our rabbitic rulings. And so yeah, that sets the stage obviously for uh rabbiticism to be framed as virtue, for people going against God to be considered actually what God wants. Um because as long as we have the majority of rabbis in the system, the man-made system of rabbis that was created, um that's more that that's superior to God himself. Um, and I mean when people hear that those stories outside of a rabbitical context, religious people, they'll shudder at such a story. You know, it's it's told in Christian circles kind of as a way to be like, "Look, look at these people. They're screwed." Right? But like Jews here are like, "Well, you don't understand." It's like, "No, I I understand that's not >> it's a deeply profound." And look, there are some parts of it that are deeply profound. Like just think about the idea my sons have my sons have have vanquished me or defeated me or something like this.

[00:31:20]They've been victorious over me. Um so you know Freud talked about and here I'm I'm way out on a limb. I don't know anything about psychology but but from my pop psychology understanding Freud talked about how there's this idea where where the child every child to establish himself as as a sovereign adult needs to overcome and their parents and and and so you know the metaphor he he talked about was where Edipus slays his father at a crossroads right >> right is one of the um uh you know ancient Greek um tragedies right or being tragedy is a type of play um where there's this the there's a prophecy that the child's going to kill the father and so the father orders the child killed and the and the person's job it is to kill the child puts him at a you know leaves him at a crossroads and somebody picks him up and raises him and then years later he he encounters his father at another crossroads and he kills the father um and and so Freud said this is slaying the parent is is is the child declaring themsel an adult and no longer longer subject to the um you know the judgment of their father or or the instruction of the father but being like a sovereign adult and so the rabbi and look so so so I think like somebody like Jordan Peterson would say like there are universal truths in these stories that's why we keep telling them and the rabbitical story takes that universal truth which is that a child to be an adult has to has to stand on their own and they say well we did that with God's our father and we've defeated God and God's proud of us and Look, I'm a father. And yes, when my son stands up to me in a good way, not in a bad way.

[00:33:01]And and says, you know, I'm going to do this thing on my own. I I'm not going to have you hold my hand. Like his car was total. And he went to get a loan. And I said, I'll co-sign with you. You'll save a few points. He's like, no, I want to do it as an adult. And and and he and he got his own loan. And I was very proud of him, right? He's a bit of a of of a of a frier, as we say in Israel, because he he I could he could have saved, you know, put some money on on the on the coast, but that's fine. I was proud of him that he stood up and said, "No, I'm going to take care of this myself." That was him at the crossroads saying, "I don't I'm not a child anymore. I can take care of this myself." I was very proud of him. So, the the the rabbis have taken that and said, "Look, God's proud of us that we we've overruled his decision." and and an outsider hears that and they say, "This is this is this is not it is profound. It's profoundly perverse.

[00:33:51]>> You've you've you've defeated God. What what are you even doing this for?" Look, and I'll hear this from from um Ben Shapiro, who you know is a devout Orthodox Jew, and he'll say things like, "Well, God gave us the Torah as this negotiation between between between which maybe there's there's a bit of truth in that, but for him, it's a negotiation, but by these other people, by these rabbis." And look, people will say to me, "Who do you think you are to question all of your ancestors who are these great rabbis?" And my answer is I'm the one who stands before God on the day of judgment. I'm the one who has to answer for my actions. I can't say my great-grandfather told me to do that. I can up until when I'm a child. But at some point, I have to be at the crossroads and I have to overcome my ancestors and say, I'm a man and I'm the one who answers for my questions in the presence of God.

[00:34:48]>> Yeah.

[00:34:48]>> So, I mean I mean I think there's a profound truth in that. They've just taken it in the wrong direction. I'm not supposed to defeat God. I'm supposed to overcome the rulings of my parents.

[00:35:00]>> And and look, there's a prophecy in Jeremiah where the Gentiles come and they say, "We've inherited lies from our fathers." So imagine, like, I hear this and they say, "Well, how can you how do you think you know more than your ancestors?" Imagine if the Gentiles said that. Well, you know, St. Augustine told me to do such and such, so I'm going to do it.

[00:35:18]>> Uh, well, God expects more than from you than that, right? That's what he's saying in Jeremiah.

[00:35:23]>> Yeah. Amen. I mean, look, look at Leviticus 26. Confess your sins and the sins of God.

[00:35:27]>> Let's look at that.

[00:35:28]>> Let's look at Levitic. Oo, I love that.

[00:35:30]Let's Can we bring That's the to right.

[00:35:32]It's one of the two passages where there's the blessing and the curse.

[00:35:36]Leviticus 26 >> and then we have um uh if I'm looking at if I'm remembering the right passage and the other one is uh Deuteronomy 28-29, which is the more elaborate one. So Leviticus 26:40, they shall confess their sins and the sins of their fathers and their transgression which they have transgressed against me as they went with me in casualness. They went with me coldly.

[00:36:02]>> Kev, which is we don't really know what Kev is, but something like rebelliousness. It's usually translated or >> Yeah, I can see it as being like car is cold. Like you walked coldly or casually with me.

[00:36:12]>> That's maybe maybe >> I don't know. JPS has hostile. Uh, King James says contrary. It's one of those words where where so it's interesting.

[00:36:21]I'm doing these Bible studies every morning with my wife and and there'll be verses where like I don't know what that word means. Oh, look it up. No, nobody knows what the word means. And there are other verses where I know every single word and I have no idea what it's saying. Right? This is in particularly in Proverbs. I'm like, no, there's no hard words in this verse. I know every single word and there are common words, but I have no idea. I I shouldn't say I have no idea, right? There's four different explanations. Which one is correct to anybody's guess, >> right? Because when you put those words together, >> um they're almost like a riddle, which is like a feature, not a bug in in Proverbs, but >> um >> yeah. So, so coni, so that's really interesting. Confessing the sins of your fathers. So, so this makes me think about um so, so people have heard me talk. We want to hear what you have to say. So, so tell us how do you engage with this question? In other words, so I've seen this in your videos where people are constantly saying, "How do you have the hutbah? Who do you think you are?"

[00:37:21]>> Right? All these people for all these generations got it wrong and suddenly Israel Horowitz thinks he's got it right. So what is your response to that?

[00:37:29]>> I'll give you an example, right? Because you have to choose here. You either have to choose between vanquishing and defeating your father God or vanquishing and defeating your human fathers, right?

[00:37:39]And when it comes to the word of God versus the word of man or God himself versus man, you got to go with God. And so a good example would be when it comes to Noah, right? So Noah by all accounts is an extremely righteous man. He maintains his righteousness and walks with God in the most corrupt time in world history. And God loves Noah, finds favor in God's eyes, and God saves him.

[00:38:02]It says Noah was a righteous man in his generations. And the rabbis say, or at least one school of rabbis say that Noah was righteous in his generations, but if he was in another generation, he would be considered nothing. Um, direct quote from the Midash. And I see that quote and I'm disgusted because I have so much admiration for Noah that God himself places on Noah, saying this is the man that you are all responsible um that is responsible for your survival and you all owe your thanks to this man. And their claim about him is that if he was in another generation, he would be considered nothing. And so I would mention things like that. Like I find that quote to be disturbing. I I think it's like if I had to respect Noah or I had to respect Rabbi Akiva, I'm going with Noah. Right? If I had to respect uh Moses or Rabbi Eleazar, I'm going with Moses. Right? And the point is that they they seem to not understand the hierarchy here, which is that you're going to have to throw someone under the bus. Either it's going to be Rashi or it's going to be Noah. I rather throw Rashi under the bus than throw Noah under the bus. Apparently, you rather throw Noah under the bus than Rashi. So, I think it comes down to that. It's impossible to maintain allegiance to the written Torah and the oral Torah when they contradict each other openly, right? Either you're going to place the word of God over the word of man or you're going to place the word of man over the word of God. And to me, the answer is very obvious. So, I'm not really phased when people are like, "How dare you? How dare you?" It's like, well, how dare you, again, as you pointed out, how dare you go against a billion Christians. How dare you go against a billion Muslims. This is not a numbers game. It's a truth question. And we need to actually sit here and explore the truth. And you yourself just admitted as someone who claims that scripture is understandable. You don't always understand every word. You find that there are multiple interpretations.

[00:39:47]No one is denying that. In fact, that's really the nature of the Talmud. It's a bunch of different interpretations and understandings and independent opinions of different rabbis. The problem with the orthodox system is that it is saying that these particular opinions are narrowed down and then we follow one of those particular opinions even though there could be other opinions and all those opinions could be wrong or one of them could be right. No, we go with my monities choice. We go with the consensus of rabbis over 2,000 years.

[00:40:16]And again, to me, that's just transparently absurd. It has no merit on its own. It always appeals to authority or faith claims or like how dare you, right? The the great rebies and like who says they're great because you say they're great because they live 2,000 years ago. Lots of people live 2,000 years ago, right? Just because someone lived 2,000 years ago and wrote a book doesn't mean everything he says is true.

[00:40:38]So again, we we just have to use our better judgment. And I I love what you said. I'm the one who's standing before God. I'm the one who has to take responsibility for my life. This is this is a a genuine pursuit of truth, not an attempt to undermine what other people have done. They've done a lot of good, but they've also done bad. And so when we look to our fathers, it says in uh Deuteronomy 32, ask your father and he will tell you uh your elder and he and he'll reveal it to you and remember the generations of old. Right? So it's like, okay, well, you can learn from your father's teachings. You can also learn from your father's mistakes, right? You you have to look to history not just to worship history but to see the the problems with history of which there have been many problems and something we talked about last time as well which is that look at the actual facts on the ground of the Jewish people exile destruction remain remaining few in number scattered across the world that's not a redeemed people that's not a people who are in the good graces of God if you read the Torah God promises blessings to his people when they follow him and based off of Jewish history doesn't really look like the Jewish people are in I mean God has given them a lot of blessings but still you know God said Israel will be like the the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky and we don't see that because instead we're few in number scattered across the world so there's the blessings and there's the curses and it looks like we're not accessing those blessings properly so uh what are we doing wrong and we have to have that conversation we have to be open enough to question pretty much everything. But when it comes to God, that's where we should start to humble ourselves. But instead, it's the opposite. You know, they'd rather dismiss what the Torah says, dismiss the the characters in the Torah. Like I heard a rabbi say that because Jacob told Pharaoh that his life was hard, he lost like 20 years of his life, one one year for every word that he spoke or something like that. It's like like, okay, so now you're calling out Jacob now because he was an authentic person and like spoke honestly. Like I don't know. There's just also you don't know any of these things. All of this is completely arbitrary. It's made up. Your your trust is uh your source is trust me bro as they say, right? Like no. Like how >> tell people of my generation what that means. Your source is trust me bro. I'm not sure I know what that means.

[00:43:01]>> Like when you ask someone what is your source for what you just said? He'll be like trust me bro. Don't worry.

[00:43:09]So I'm not familiar with that. But but so so there's a few different things here that that I'm not sure which direction we should take this. One of the um so so there's one aspect here is is um it is not just the specific and I think this is important for me at least to to identify that it's not just the specific interpretations the rabbis come up with.

[00:43:31]It's the method of interpretation that they employ. In other words, um you know that in my field they'll make a difference between exugesus and hermeneutics. Exuges Jesus is the specific interpretation, right? Does do not boil a kid in his mother's milk is a kid a goat or is it any animal and is any milk? That's let's say that's exugesus. But then the hermeneutic is the principle behind it. Are we interpreting based on the context or like you said is it just arbitrary? Um and and the rabbitical approach says on the one hand you can interpret arbitrarily what's called the midashic approach but on the other hand not everybody can do it right. So so and you'll see these these these uh I'll watch these videos with Tovia singer arguing with with Christians and he'll say but you're you're taking it out of context. Yeah but he takes everything out of context. Right. In other words when when when Tovia says he's not allowed to eat a hamburger he's he's basing that on taking it out of context.

[00:44:26]and and I heard him once give a lecture at the Orthodox Union in in Jerusalem on I believe it's Karen Hayes Street and and his his his explanation was well my my rabbis have the authority to do that I don't trust your rabbis meaning if if the gospel of Matthew takes something out of context it means nothing to me but if Rabbi Aka does it well I trust Rabbi Aka so I follow him >> exactly >> so so so on the one hand you have an issue of the method of interpretation but the other hand there's this what they call an appeal to authority openly an appeal to authority, right? I'm not imagining it, right? Um so, so it's when you combine the appeal to authority with arbitrariness, they can say anything, but only they're allowed to say it.

[00:45:07]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:45:08]>> Yeah. And that's extremely um frustrating, >> I would say. And then they come to you and say, "Who do you think you are?" No, I'm not I'm not appealing to an authority o only over my own life, right? Meaning like, who am I? What authority do I have over my own life? I'm a grown man who is responsible as a human being for my actions. That's the appeal to authority over my own life. That's that's and and I think the reply, let's say the Ben Shapiro reply to that is well that or the Ashraza reply. I think uh I shouldn't take him out quote him, but but I think he would say something like well there's this consensus of the community, but what if the community is wrong?

[00:45:48]>> Mhm.

[00:45:48]>> We've seen that before throughout history. And look, if you look at the actual consensus of the community, if we take the majority of rabbis in the world, they're reform rabbis, right? Let's say in the United States, for sure, the majority of rabbis are reform rabbis and they themselves say they really don't have any kind of authority over maybe over very specific things perhaps they do, right? Over communal things. Um, but I was told by one reformed rabbis, you study a commandment and you decide if it's relevant for you and then you decide to keep it or not. Um, well, I mean, then why would I keep any commandment? What are you talking about?

[00:46:24]>> Yeah.

[00:46:24]>> Like, life would be much easier if if I could do whatever I wanted. Um, uh, but I do it because God commanded me to do it, right? And I do the best I can. So, so here's another important uh difference, let's say, between um the Tanakh and and and I'll I'll take Islam as the example. So, so in the Quran there is this statement or this concept in Islam that the Quran is muban that it's clear and and and and and um not difficult to understand.

[00:46:54]Um we don't have that claim in the Torah. What we do have is that the commandments should be clear to understand. Um but it doesn't mean we understand them today because we're after thousands of years of exile. We're doing the best we can to reconstruct what would have been obvious to an ancient Israelite. That that's my approach to it anyway.

[00:47:10]>> What are your thoughts on that?

[00:47:12]Yeah, I think that it's very understandable in a lot of ways. I think sometimes there are points of doubt and we can discuss those doubts. Um but the the problem the real problem is is that the whole system of the Torah relating to the priesthood and the court system and the justice system are non-existent.

[00:47:29]So um you can't process these things uh or litigate them in any sort of court with any sort of real binding authority.

[00:47:37]uh it's really just boils down to opinions of people in which case why why are some people's opinions more valid than others and even in the context of courts courts can become corrupted too so I don't know what you think about this idea but even in Deuteronomy 17 which is the source they always bring it says do not go to the right or the left from what the high court in the temple commands you so first of all obviously they're not the high court in the temple um so let's uh just settle that u but one of the things that it says in the end it says the man who acts bizadon and bizadon I think is translated to mean with malicious intent to do the wrong thing the man who acts with malice that's the man who is punished but if you're acting with righteousness to challenge a corrupt court or to question a ruling a genuine court would entertain that question they wouldn't just say we said so right you're not God you're here to handle disputes you're not here to force your authority on other people. Uh so what we should be hearing out of people in positions of authority is a voice of humility is is as it says about the king. The king by the way who needs to be chosen by God. Um he needs to write himself a copy of the Torah and read it every day of his life, not be too materialistic, not abuse his power, uh not take too many of the resources or the women of the people. Um, and he has to be humble and not let himself his heart be raised above others to think that he's better than anyone. God put him in this position. He needs to know the laws of God and he needs to follow those humbly and righteously and faithfully. So leadership is about being faithful to God and serving your fellow man. Uh, and what it's become in all forms of government, not just Judaism.

[00:49:22]That's why again once you can see corruption in religion, you can see corruption in politics, you can see corruption in medicine, you can see corruption in just about everything because unfortunately this is an unfortunate fact. It's not brings me no joy to say this that people usually get corrupted by power. And the Torah is very aware of this. That's why, you know, Jethro tells Moses, pick um men of truth, who fear God, who hate greed, um men of valor, who have courage, right?

[00:49:54]Those are the the qualifications for judges. That's clearly not what we have right now. So, um that's the bottom line. The bottom line is like you have to make your case. And we are an exiled people. There is no centralized authority. And even if there was a centralized authority, they would still have to make their case. Uh, and that that's what God wants from us. He wants us to be subservient to him, not subservient to men. That's literally the whole story of the Exodus from Egypt.

[00:50:17]God took us out of slavery to a Pharaoh in order to be servants to him, right?

[00:50:23]Not to be slaves to rabbis. And that's what they want. They want you to be slaves to them. One of the crazy out of context ones I think you might be aware of this in Aravan is it 21b where they take the the quote from Ecclesiastes out of context where at the end of Ecclesiastes Solomon says my son beware of too many books for they wary the flesh and destroy the spirit or something like that and they take out of context and they just say beware my son for the many books and they say oh you see the many books of the scribes are more important than the Torah and whoever goes against the scribes is deserving of death but whoever goes against the Torah it doesn't really matter that Oh yeah, I've I've quoted that in the um but I didn't remember it was referring to uh Ecclesiastes. Let's have a look at that. That's >> it's actually insane. They completely corrupt this verse which is explicitly saying not to write too many books. They take the the first three words of the verse out of context and say therefore only worry about all those many books that we wrote. Um so yeah, it's it's just another example of this. uh what is the meaning of which is written and more than these my son be careful of making many books and guys when we're looking at this in sepharia everything in bold is what it actually says in Hebrew and Aramaic and the non-bold is their interpretation of it um or in this case they're filling out a verse that wasn't fully quoted um my son be careful to fulfill the words of the sages the sofim even more than the words of the Torah for the words of the Torah induce positive and negative commandments even with regard to the negative commandments and this is probably an English translation violation of of Stein's alts here. The violation of many of them is punishable only by lashes. Whereas with respect to the words of the sages, anyone who transgresses the words of sages is liable to the death penalty.

[00:52:08]Wow.

[00:52:10]>> Um >> now, now look at that verse in Ecclesiastes.

[00:52:13]>> The verse in Ecclesiastes is 12 um >> 12:12 >> 1212. And it says, "More than this, my son, beware >> of making too many books because there's no end to them." And it is a great uh like tires out the flesh. And um here I'll just much study is a weariness of the flesh. So um beware of making too many books because there's no end. And much study is a wear a weariness of the flesh which of course completely uh destroys the whole concept of the yeshiva system if it hasn't been destroyed already by the Torah itself which tells you to live and support your family. Um, but yeah, he's literally saying the opposite, which is watch out all these books. Like that's you don't want to get caught up with books and all that stuff. It just worries the flesh.

[00:52:59]They take the first three words out of context, which says, "My son, beware more with the books, right?" It's like, >> so here we have um the passage in Aravan 21b.

[00:53:10]I'll make this thing go away. There it is. Okay. So, I'm trying to understand.

[00:53:14]I'm not sure I understand. just just again the what's the hermeneutic here and the exogesis. So, so what they're saying here doesn't I feel like something's almost missing, right? So, it says, "My son, beware of the words of the sim and sufim are um a category of rabbitical taken which um are relatively early, so they can't tack them on to the name of a specific rabbi, right? Um that's suim more than the words of the Torah, right? In other words, sofim is a period of rabbitical history. Uh maybe fictitious, right? But it's it's the it meaning it's they have the um ankess and that's the sof that's the sophim meaning in the the late Persian period early henistic period that's suffra it's a technical term even though it literally means just scribes so beware of the words of the scribes more than the words of the Torah because the words of the Torah have positive commandments and negative commandments and the words of the sopr anyone who violates the words of the sopraim is subject to the death penalty is worthy of death so something I I feel like I'm missing something here because for the words of the Torah, he says there's positive and negative commandments, which obviously there are, right? It says rest in the Shabbat and it says don't do work, right? That's what they mean by positive negative commandments. But the words of the sophraim, he's explaining in terms of if you violate them, you're worthy of death. And the implication there, which Steinult added here, or somebody added here, which is that you only get lashes for violating the words of the Torah.

[00:54:44]Um, meaning let's say anything that's that doesn't specifically have the death penalty, the rabbis say you get lashes.

[00:54:50]So, so I'm not sure I understand how they tie this to the verse. Even if it's taking it out of context, I'm still not even sure. Um, so what they're say Yes. Okay. So, what they're doing is making many books they're interpreting as >> doing the words of of the sophim. That's what they're interpreting as.

[00:55:14]>> Yeah. Again, either they're just colossally stupid and illiterate or they're terribly manipulative and sinister.

[00:55:21]>> They're they're not stupid and illiterate, meaning they're very deliberately doing these things. So, they interpret the wordim as that's that's pretty clear. Um, and so they're so they're interpreting this midrashically, meaning out of deliberately and knowingly out of context. And I've said that before, right? either either they're stupid or or they very deliberately know what they're doing. I think they very deliberately know what they're doing.

[00:55:45]These are smart people. They actually, unlike some later rabbis, they understood grammar. They just chose to ignore it. Um it's kind of like when I had a dog who Georgia who died in 2011, 15 years uh oh wow, was that 15 years ago? And I would tell her to, you know, I would tell her to sit and she knew exactly what I was asking. She would just ignore me unless she wanted to treat. Right. So the rabbis are like Georgia. They know exactly what they're doing here. So they're interpreting they're changing the vowels and interpreting them as draim and they're saying my son be aware of be be careful to do the words of the so of the sofim the these rabbitical taken or enactments from the period of the late Persian early um uh henistic period that's I think that's how they're taking this um it seems to me like for an example of da sofim would be when I was a kid I said well where are we required to read the Torah over the course of a year, right? I I read the Torah every day.

[00:56:42]Where is where does this idea come from where I have to go to the synagogue and hear somebody chant it rather than just where and you're not paying attention enough to where you can make out the words. At least I today I could, but back when I was a kid, I couldn't. I'm like, it's much better if I just sit and read it and I can understand it. And they're like, oh no, that's that's Dra Sophim. That's Takanatre. Ezra and Nhema uh made that enactment. Oh, okay. So, I read the whole book of Ezra. couldn't find it. The whole book of Nhema couldn't find it. They just made it up.

[00:57:12]Now, it's possible Ezra and made that enactment and it's just not recorded in the Tanakh. But how do I know that?

[00:57:18]Right. Meaning that there's a there's a very um >> phenomenon of attributing something to a famous person, right?

[00:57:26]>> Yes. Uhhuh. Yeah. Of course.

[00:57:28]>> Without it being true, right?

[00:57:30]>> Yeah. And even if they did, by the way, so what? It's not a law. It's not a law in the Torah, you know? Like they they First of all, Yeah. There's zero evidence for that in the Tanakh. The Tanakh being the authoritative source here. And even if they did make that decree, you're not obligated to follow man-made decrees. Like the Torah says, do not add or subtract to these commandments.

[00:57:50]>> And what they didn't tell me is that it's quite clear that even if if if this is an I mean, it is an ancient custom, right? In other words, it goes back to some relatively early second temple period custom, but the custom wasn't to read the 54 Torah portions that we have today. That's that was the that was the tradition of Babylon. And in Isel in the land of Israel, they read it over either a three or three and a half year period.

[00:58:14]>> Right? So So and then it wasn't necessarily a fixed reading. In other words, each week in each synagogue, they would open up the scroll and they'd read a certain number of verses and wherever they stopped, they would pick up the next week, >> right? It wasn't that there was a fixed reading, let's say, originally. And we know that because it talks about not reading less than three verses. Why do you need to tell me that if there's a fixed portion, right? Meaning in rebbitical literature talks about that.

[00:58:38]So, so, so the point is that they'll they'll attribute things to the suffra, which that's just their way of saying it's really old and we don't know who said it, so we're going to attribute it to somebody famous.

[00:58:49]>> Mhm.

[00:58:49]>> Yeah. And hey, I mean, no one's denying that there may be these traditions, but at the same time, your traditions are not law. So, you want to follow tradition. Okay.

[00:58:59]>> Don't tell me.

[00:59:00]>> Important point. We we we were discussing before about um where do these things go back to like and and and the very fact that it talks about superstition in the Torah means superstition existed. Now it calls out the ways of the nations in Deuteronomy 18. But if there weren't Israelites doing it, it wouldn't have bothered to tell it probably wouldn't have bothered to tell us about that, right? In other words, these were things that either they were already doing or they were likely to do. Um, and so, so, and look, I I I, if you've ever been to the Western Wall, you'll see the lady selling the red string and they'll tell you the red string was wrapped seven times around the tomb of Rachel. Um, and have you ever heard that? And and and so it's holy. It's it's will bring you good luck. Ashton Coocher in I think like in the 20 30 years ago, he was in a movie where he refused to take the red string off because he said, "It gives me good luck. It blesses me." Whatever. or something like that. And they had to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to um airbrush it out of every single scene. This is before CGI graphics were much, you know, today it would be probably relatively trivial, but back then they had to go through every frame of the movie and remove it that that he was in at least. Um so the red string is actually mentioned in the topha in a there's a list in the topha Shabbat which is kind of like an apocryphal it's it's what's called it's part of early rebbitical literature, right? It's a debate whether it's from the Tanahitic period or Amoric period, but it's probably tanitic. So, so the topha has a passage where it talks about it has a list of the different superstitions which it calls the way of the Amorites based on Deuteronomy 18. So, it said so the Torah tells us in Deuteronomy 18, don't don't follow the ways of the nations. Okay, what is that? Right? So, they give a list a very long list of very specific superstitions that are forbidden. And one of those is wearing the red string.

[01:00:56]So think about that. There's a red string in the 21st century that you can get at the Western Wall and it brings you luck. And Ashton Coocher refuses to take it off.

[01:01:05]And as far as I know, there's no official rabbitical source that says, "Oh, you're supposed to wear a red string. It's good for you. It brings blessing." It's a folk custom.

[01:01:15]And it's a folk custom that was known in like 1800 years ago in the time of the Tanim, these early rabbis who are saying, "Oh, this is one of the things the Amorites did."

[01:01:26]>> So think about that like like these things survive for millennia. It's very surprising. And the fact that they're old doesn't mean they're valid. That's that's my point.

[01:01:36]>> Exactly.

[01:01:36]>> Yeah. So >> yeah, 100%. I mean that that's the argument. It's old. It's like what?

[01:01:42]literally the the the can the Canaanites and paganism and everything predated the the Torah and and that. So, it's just a very bizarre argument to say, "Oh, it's been going on for so long, therefore we should keep it going on." Like, there have been so many terrible things going on for a long time that we need to stop.

[01:02:01]Now, there are some things that have been going on for a long time that we need to continue. And again, I think no book does a better job at defining what needs to be preserved and what needs to not matter at all than the Torah itself.

[01:02:14]The Torah, which you shall not add or subtract to these commandments, does a perfect job outlining what God wants from humanity, what society is supposed to look like. And anytime people deviate from that, there's chaos, whether they add or subtract. And so, you're not extra holy for adding, you're just as bad as the person who's subtracting. And uh that seems to be lost on Orthodox Jews because they think, "Well, how could we be doing something wrong if we're doing so much extra? We just love God so much that we do so much more than >> Wait, so what's your what's your Torah response to that? Shouldn't we just like, let's just take Shabbat for example, right? They'll keep it for 25 hours, and we could talk about the whole morning thing if you want, but they'll keep it for 25 hours and say, "We added an extra hour to Shabbat because we're showing how sacred it is, and we really want to show how much we're dedicated to God." Um, so we've added to the Shabbat.

[01:03:04]We've we've enhanced it, made it more beautiful and more expansive. So, what's your response? Why is that wrong to add to the Torah?

[01:03:12]>> Because the Torah says not to add to it.

[01:03:14]I mean, that's like that's the whole >> Deuteronomy uh 4 uh uh let's look at it actually. Can you pull that up?

[01:03:20]>> Yeah, it's Deuteronomy 4:2 and then uh 13:1 or 1232 depending on which uh version you're using.

[01:03:27]>> Yeah.

[01:03:27]>> So, what do you have in 42?

[01:03:30]>> Do not add upon the word which I command you and do not subtract from it to guard all the words of Yahweh your God which I command you.

[01:03:38]>> Okay. And then 1232 or 131. In the Hebrew versions, it's usually 13:1.

[01:03:44]>> Yes.

[01:03:45]>> 12:31 in the JPS. Oh, no, but JPS has it as 12:31 as well.

[01:03:49]>> No, I'm in the wrong verse. It is 12:32 in the King James and 131 in the JPS.

[01:03:54]>> Yes. So, all the all the matter that I command you, you shall guard you shall guard it and perform it. Do not add upon it or subtract from it.

[01:04:05]>> Right. So, if you're adding commandments to the Torah, you're actually violating the Torah.

[01:04:09]>> Exactly. Um, and it's almost like they it's like I almost feel like they're saying, "Well, the Torah is not enough."

[01:04:17]>> Mhm.

[01:04:18]>> We we need more. That's exactly what they say.

[01:04:20]>> He told you don't do that.

[01:04:22]>> Mhm. I mean, they they have to undermine the Torah in order to justify all of their additions. So, they say the Torah is not understandable. The Torah is not enough and all these things. And what they're doing is they're just undermining God's communication with humanity. And they're saying that you couldn't possibly read the word of God directly uh and discuss it all the time and teach it to your children, which is what it tells you to do. Um no, you would have to enter into year years long uh study in rabbitic institutions to get to that understanding and even then you still wouldn't understand it. So like you can finish the Talmud once, twice, three times and you'll still be an ignoramis. And they're they always pride themselves in talking about how ignorant they are and they'll never compare to their rabbi before them. And so where's the accountability here? Who who do we get to hold accountable here? Because it sounds like everyone's just appealing to the authority of the rabbi before them.

[01:05:16]And when I ask you what is your the basis for doing this, there's no answer.

[01:05:21]So for example, you know how they make every holiday 2 days. And then I ask them, well then why is Yum Kipper not two days? They're like, oh, we have a doubt, but yumip >> tell the audience what that is because a lot of people have no idea what you're talking about. Two days two days.

[01:05:34]>> So what they do is they have something called two-day holiday. All the holidays in the Torah are one holy day at a time.

[01:05:40]And they make every holiday two days based off of a a doubt that they had 2,000 years ago because they created a law that you need to receive witnesses from the high court in the temple to proclaim the new month. Um either way it's completely irrelevant modernly because there's a set calendar and even they admit that. But I was asking them they have a doubt on every holiday except for Yam Kipor, the day of atonement which happens to be a day of affliction. And suddenly on the day of affliction they're like well we're not going to make people fast for two days.

[01:06:09]That's not going to work out. So suddenly there's no more doubt.

[01:06:13]>> Well and you talked about extremism, right? In other words the um and you were saying it in a positive way which I still challenge but I don't know if we'll have time to get to that. Um so so in other words that there's many instances where they'll take a very extreme position right so there's a famous passage in the Talmud that says there's three things you should you should be martyed for rather than do which is the you know in rabbitical terminology so and those three things are you shouldn't murder another person because why is your life worth more you shouldn't um commit sexual immorality and you shouldn't worship idols okay and then they say in the Talmud however if the Gentiles try to force you to do something publicly, you should be martyed even for the color of your shoelaces.

[01:06:57]>> Yeah, I remember that.

[01:06:59]>> So, so, so the point is in in the right circumstances, they'll take a very extreme position. Okay. So, why don't we fast for two days? Meaning if you really don't know which day is is the uh biblical holiday then and so therefore you should keep uh um suk the first day of sukkot two days and the eth day of sukkot right so they'll do the eth and the nth day of sukkot where they don't work why not why not fast for two days right maybe some people will die but you know you're supposed to be martyed for everything but those three things right so so it'll show how hol you are by by starving to death um or maybe you'll make it Sure.

[01:07:36]Right. Not everybody will starve. Um >> people won't starve to death.

[01:07:40]>> No, but but water will be the bigger issue than food, right? In other words, uh there will be people who who Not necessarily. There'll be people who will die of of thirst. Look, there's people who die of thirst from a one day 24-hour fast, >> right? If you have certain medical conditions, you could die from not drinking water. So, and the rabbis say, "Well, in that case, drink the water."

[01:07:58]So, >> um so, >> yeah, in other words, the the Yeah. So, um, Israel, where can people find your your your teaching and what you're doing?

[01:08:07]>> YouTube. I got my YouTube channel. I'm on all the social medias, Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok, X. Um, and I got a bunch of projects. I got some books on Amazon. Uh, God willing, um, we'll be doing more.

[01:08:22]>> All right. Awesome. Would you end with a prayer?

[01:08:24]>> Yeah, my pleasure. Uh, so please, dear God, Yhovah, thank you so much for this opportunity. Uh it's a blessing to find some like-minded people in this vast expanse of uh the the desert of um godlessness in this world. Um may you bring everyone back to you and to your truth, to the simplicity of your faith, to your existential reality that you've placed before all of us. And may we always choose blessing in life for all eternity. Amen.

[01:08:56]>> Amen. All right.

[01:08:59]Talk to me a little bit more about extremism because because uh I would have agreed with you 20 or 30 years ago, but now I'm you know what changed what what really changed it for me more than anything was seeing ISIS.

[01:09:13]>> You have been listening to Hebrew Voices with Nheimeia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nahhemia's Mccorhebrew Foundation. Learn more at nahhemimeaswall.com.