A Misogyny Epidemic - with Justin Warfield

[00:00:00]They have media like selling this narrative of a male loneliness epidemic, which is the most [ __ ] absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. Like >> You don't believe in the male loneliness epidemic?

[00:00:11]>> It's It's a media fabrication.

[00:00:13]>> [music] >> I'm just like talking to men. I'm just wondering like why are you like this?

[00:00:27]>> Me personally or men in general?

[00:00:29]>> Let's start with men in general.

[00:00:33]>> Um learned behaviors.

[00:00:36]>> Mhm.

[00:00:38]>> Um structures, systems.

[00:00:44]Um >> What systems are you referring to?

[00:00:48]>> Patriarchal systems.

[00:00:49]>> Mhm.

[00:00:50]>> Um A male-centered society.

[00:00:58]Um Well, that's no excuse for individual behavior. Like I think everyone bears a responsibility of unlearning behaviors and ideas.

[00:01:11]>> How do men unlearn?

[00:01:15]Is it like getting like deprogrammed from a from a cult?

[00:01:21]>> Um I I have been in a cult, so like >> in Wait, wait, wait.

[00:01:26]>> cult, yeah.

[00:01:26]>> This is You've been in a cult?

[00:01:28]>> a cult, yeah.

[00:01:29]>> What cult?

[00:01:30]>> Um I was in a cult that was It's now classified as a cult. At the time, it was considered a church.

[00:01:39]But there's actually people out there who have I guess groups um and pods where they've spoken about their past experience in breaking free from it and sort of um unpacking what that was for for I left it at an early age, so there wasn't really any work to do.

[00:02:00]But >> I did not know you were in a cult. This is very exciting.

[00:02:04]>> Well, well, because [laughter] it like it sounds so sensational and because like cults are so fascinating, like serial killers or certain like true crime, like we all have these things that are very interesting to us.

[00:02:16]So, because it's so sensational and it's something that like is such a part of the lore of books, films, everything we've grown up with, it always felt like like I'm not going to be like, "Yeah, I was raised in a cult." Cuz it just feels like there's people who are really in >> Yeah.

[00:02:32]>> [ __ ] up cults. So, for me being in a church, which was in the '70s supposed to be this like groovy sort of Christian like feel the Holy Spirit thing with a bunch of ex-hippies, which turned into something much darker and was in fact a cult, it it wasn't something that I was at I I was not abused mentally or physically within it. I was not witness to any abuse. It was definitely super weird and creepy and uncool and most of the sort of heinous things happened after we left.

[00:03:08]>> Was it a sex cult?

[00:03:10]>> It was not a sex cult. It's so much more boring.

[00:03:12]>> [laughter] >> No, it was a church that was like, even though I'm Jewish, I grew up in a church that was also a school connected to it.

[00:03:22]And it was an Apostolic Pentecostal Christian church called Church of the Living Word, but it actually was called The Walk.

[00:03:32]>> The walk.

[00:03:33]>> Yeah, The Walk. And so, I was in this thing called The Walk from I guess like kindergarten through fifth grade. And then we left the school and left the church and I was like, "This sucks. I don't want to be a part of this."

[00:03:49]>> Is there was there like an element of like a like a sky daddy God patriarchal kind of system in the in the cult? Was it like men were in charge?

[00:04:03]>> Well, I mean yeah, I mean like it's >> [laughter] >> all operate of course. It's like it's like women don't just start a cult and are like, "I want to like like, you know, um >> Mostly men are cult leaders.

[00:04:17]>> Yeah, I mean it's not inherently in a woman's nature to try and subjugate men for their own personal gains. That's a a That's a an offshoot of patriarchy.

[00:04:28]>> That's a man thing.

[00:04:29]>> For sure. Like just like there's no women serial killers. It's like sure you could point to like an anomaly of like one or two like a Warren Jeffs or something, but like ultimately that is a that is a behavior that is a function of a male dominated society and >> [snorts] >> But as far as the church like no, it was weird. There would be like a queer guy and then a queer woman and they'd be like, "Oh, you can't be this way. You're going to get married." And so they would like put these people together and there was obvious like sec cults always end in weird sex stuff. I was just I was a child and not privy to it and it was more just like >> there wasn't with a child with >> Yeah, well, I mean I think that ultimately like when you talk about grooming, I think that there was elements of grooming that led to people realizing that it was a cult. But ultimately like it's that abuse of power, right? So it's like a power dynamic in people that have faith or believe in something and then that abuse of power for someone's own personal gains or ego, right?

[00:05:33]>> Is that why you're like this?

[00:05:36]>> [laughter] >> I mean I'm like this from so many reasons. I'm just so many layers of [ __ ] up. But going back to your I mean [laughter] going back to your point of when you said well like how do do men get deprogrammed? No, I think it's the same thing like as a I mean it's different because we're living in a male-dominated society that has all these like systems in place that benefit men, particularly white men, right? Particularly like white Christian men in America. And so like how do you How do you as a as a white woman unlearn like how do you like become anti-racist?

[00:06:13]Or how do you unlearn certain ideas that you might have about classism or if you if you are like a straight woman, how do you unlearn certain things that you might know have that are if not um if not outright homophobia, like maybe there's latent things that are um Like how do I say this? Like so like if you're a woman who grew up and you had ideas that were learned about LGBTQ people, right? You may not be like a homophobe, but you might have prejudices cuz you prejudge situations.

[00:06:52]I think we all have to unpack and unlearn the bad [ __ ] that we learn from either our family of origin, our chosen family, our friends, society, the media.

[00:07:01]As a man, it's just much deeper because misogyny is so widely accepted.

[00:07:11]>> Right. Well, it's so deeply ingrained that it's just like we don't even women don't even realize that they're misogynistic or don't even know that they can be.

[00:07:19]>> Yeah, as well as internalized misogyny.

[00:07:21]And people talk about it every four years in voting cycles, right? But it's something that's very real. Internalized racism, internalized homophobia, [snorts] internal you know, internalized misogyny. And all of this [ __ ] is intersectional, right? So like why am I the way I am? I I probably a con- a combination of growing up in a society that is a sick society.

[00:07:52]Though it has great things about it, and having to look at things and find what doesn't sit right with me, and then find the things in myself that don't sit right with me, right?

[00:08:06]>> What What in yourself doesn't sit right with you?

[00:08:12]>> Um I think the the thing that doesn't sit right with me I would have to really dig, but one thing that I I I'm aware of is like I have certain views about sort of third and fourth wave feminism, and ideas that I believe and I think that are helpful for everyone because of the intersectionality of a common shared struggle, right? So, like while like first wave feminism was an important step, and second wave feminism was basically like '80s neoliberal white women in the suburbs sort of like in in a very Reagan-esque sort of like I'm out for myself, and I'm going to excel in the workplace, it didn't include, as we know, women of color, brown women, black women. Certainly didn't include trans women, right? That's only like a function of like third and fourth wave feminism. But like, I can have these ideas about the patriarchy. I can have ideas about what I think is a crisis of of rampant misogyny in the world right now, specifically in the United States and online.

[00:09:28]But that doesn't mean that I don't I That doesn't mean that I'm incapable of being unkind, or in my house. So like I'm I've been married for forever and like I've been with my partner and my wife for 20 years. So it's like I could think that I'm being a good guy. I can think that I'm modeling more of what I want to be as a man in my house and society.

[00:09:57]But what I practice in my house just through acts of kindness and generosity and sensitivity has to be aligned with the greater goal of what I want society to be. Otherwise that's then I won't feel good about that.

[00:10:13]>> Mhm. Okay.

[00:10:14]>> And so like sometimes I could just be moody. Sometimes I could be a dick. So it's like, you know, would I be more that way towards um you know, if I was living in proximity to a man than a woman? No, I'm probably going to be moody and a dick to anybody who's >> Equality. Be moody to everybody.

[00:10:31]>> [laughter] >> But you know what I'm saying? It's like it would be it would be it wouldn't be fair to espouse something and then not try and live it, right?

[00:10:42]>> Yeah.

[00:10:43]Right. We We try to practice what we preach or walk the walk.

[00:10:47]>> Yeah.

[00:10:48]>> Um what do you think is the manliest thing about you?

[00:10:54]>> Oh, that's an interesting question. Um my ideas about manliness are like really different than like society's.

[00:11:00]>> Great. We want to know.

[00:11:02]>> Um I mean like ultimately questions like this are tricky though because if you answer honestly, like it runs the risk of feeling like virtue signaling.

[00:11:12]You know what I mean? Like I was having a conversation with a friend recently and she said >> whole point of this show is to get people to say >> [laughter] >> Right. You know and >> That is like uh provocative because nothing that I say is going to be provocative like a conversation about like gender manliness is inherently going to be sort of loaded.

[00:11:30]>> Which I love but like all of the things that I will say will not be provocative to a female audience. It would probably just be like either eye rolly to a certain kind of guy >> Yeah.

[00:11:40]>> or to a skeptical woman who's like, I don't know, is he really >> Yeah.

[00:11:44]>> cool.

[00:11:45]>> [laughter] >> Okay, so why don't you say what you wanted to say? Okay, dude suck.

[00:11:49]>> Um >> Why do dudes suck?

[00:11:53]Well, what why don't let's go back to what is manly about you and what you're sort of how you what you what your definition of that would be.

[00:12:00]>> Well, I was having a conversation with a friend the other day and she said like you got like I'm I'm she said that she was very wary of of guys who are like, I love women.

[00:12:12]And I and I think that that's interesting. Like I I find these kind of conversations very interesting.

[00:12:18]>> Mhm.

[00:12:20]>> Primarily because like this is we have to acknowledge the fact that we literally have media like selling this narrative of a male loneliness epidemic, which is the most [ __ ] absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. Like a >> You don't believe in the male loneliness epidemic.

[00:12:37]>> It's it's a media fabrication. It's like I mean separate from like the sort of like idea of like incels and I don't mean like as a pejorative name that we call people that like sort of are gamer kids that live in their mom's basement or like or the stereotype of like who are women hating like, you know, young or old men. Um actual incels was a real thing that that happened, but it's more indicative I think of a culture where we're all strung out on smartphones. We all are separated from each other whether if we were sitting here having a meal together, it would be more likely that we would be looking at our phones than each other just because that's the society we live in. So we're all separated. We're all like strung out on these devices and these algorithms and these dopamine hits that we get.

[00:13:28]But, I think that men are not inherently more lonely than women. It's just I think that men find community in different ways. I find I think that young men are finding community, let's just say, through gaming.

[00:13:44]>> Mhm.

[00:13:45]>> You're isolated, you're alone, like you're I I I just think that there's Let's put it this way. If we went to like full like Lord of the Flies, and you put an island full of women.

[00:13:55]>> Mhm.

[00:13:56]>> Like, those women are probably going to create structures and systems that allow for for them to find shelter, to be fed, for there to be order, for there to be um for people to be taken care of and their basic needs to be met. It doesn't mean that there's not going to be fights. It doesn't mean that there's not going to be power struggles.

[00:14:18]But, ultimately, they're not probably going to eat each other or kill each other.

[00:14:23]>> [laughter] >> And I think that there is something >> men will?

[00:14:28]>> Absolutely. I think men I think [laughter] I think men will immediately like Not immediately, but men will in in in variably and inevitably dominate, subjugate, physically harm, uh sexualize, um take the others food, and we we need only look at the way government is run. And >> Yeah.

[00:14:54]>> military is run, and the world is run by men to see that if you put them alone on an island, what's going to happen. So, I think that if men have trouble finding community with each other because of things they're taught, because of a fear of being vulnerable, a fear of being open, a fear of what that means or how that feels based on the way that they've learned, not something that they naturally feel, cuz naturally we all want want community with each other.

[00:15:21]But, they were obviously taught that this is wrong or something. So, you have these men or young boys who are isolated, who are gaming, who are doing these things, or who are just living their normal lives, or in a frat house, or just like scrolling through like Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate, or like these awful like comedian / like like sorry, like really like hurtful, incredibly incredibly dark people.

[00:15:44]All this messaging to them is is basically saying, "Hey, like It's based on entitlement. It's based on like you were promised a bill of sale that you're a man, and like you're going to have a hot woman, and you're going to have a good paying job, and you're going to buy a house, and you're going to have a two-car garage, and you're going to have all this stuff around you. And if you're a white man, you're also going to be in a position of power, and people are going to respect you, and you're going to get what you want." And whether you look at like people who have been high-achieving, whether it's like tech bros or athletes, these are people who have been told not been told no for most of their lives. So, they are assuming that things and so, if you look at the way that young men are being radicalized through the media or through podcasts, right?

[00:16:34]Or through I mean, forget about just the basic like things we learn which are toxic about old ideas about masculinity. It's hyper-masculine now. It's not just you were promised this like some GI bill in like the post-war early '50s. Now it's like no, like women are supposed to behave this way for you. And then you add like a whole generation of of men who are boys who are learning about male-female interpersonal dynamics through like the most hyper-aggressive, violent, misogynistic porn. And then you have guy like it's just a it's all like a toxic insane perfect storm to just create what I think is like I don't think it's a male loneliness epidemic. I think it's a misogyny epidemic. I think that when you look at like regardless of the fact that like her stance or lack of stance on war and in Palestine when Kamala lost I think she won but whatever. But when she like the election was taken from her. But um the referendum was like oh you know people weren't ready for a black woman president. What the truth is like America's America's like original sin will always be racism and it'll always be this thing that is embedded in American culture that a certain part of the United States has never gotten over losing the Civil War.

[00:18:15]And whether you look at like John Birch Society or whether you look at like Turning Point and Charlie and Erica Kirk.

[00:18:23]I actually feel like we've surpassed the awful racism of of the United States with misogyny. Like I actually think that there's if you just look at it and I'm not saying that we're not an incredibly racist country because like it's more it's more likely that a black person's killed uh by you know an institution like the police than a woman. Although what we're seeing with ice and everything is it's indiscriminate and it the misogyny's baked in.

[00:18:51]Cuz it's like a private army for like a pedophile who's like a convicted sex offender. But long-winded way of saying like it's totally accepted now. Like people are like there's podcasts where it's literally just like racism and sexism is the product. That is the goal.

[00:19:13]>> Yeah.

[00:19:14]>> Not like a byproduct. Like whether you're talking about Andrew Schulz or like Kill Tony or like it's it's just crazy that what passes for entertainment is actually radicalization.

[00:19:26]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:27]>> And so what's the matter with men now? Like when you said I'm sorry, you said well well, is there really a male loneliness epidemic? No, we have people who are being paid millions of dollars telling men that women are the problem for all of their woes, whether it's the fact that like I don't know that they can't get laid. I mean >> They can't get jobs, they can't get laid, all the things.

[00:19:54]>> But that's >> have power.

[00:19:56]>> Right. And like you have all the self-determination and power in the world. Just like put down your phone and like go apply for a job or go ask a girl out or get out into the world and stop listening to an echo chamber that tells you all of this really not just bad information, super [ __ ] dangerous information.

[00:20:13]>> Mhm.

[00:20:13]>> I mean I think it's a terrifying time to to be a woman in the United States or like I can't imagine if I had a young daughter like what I would be up against just trying to keep her safe in the world. I was having a conversation with a friend of ours and her friend she's a college student here in LA and her friend was um roofied. And like it's just insane that you have to like basically like seal your drink when you go out at night like with like some like plastic cover condom dental dam thing because there's just guys that are actual predators.

[00:20:50]>> Yeah. I mean I think it's always been like that for women, but maybe men are just realizing it more or people are realizing it more because it's just everything is more out in the open and everything's more talked about and and yeah, we have so much information now. So but I think, you know, it's always been dangerous to be a woman.

[00:21:12]>> I I mean, and I I can only imagine. Like, I can't I don't know what it's like to be a woman.

[00:21:18]Like, I don't know what it's like to walk down the street and like wonder if I'm in physical danger. Like, I Well, I do, but I don't know how I don't I don't carry that with me at all times. Like, I think that there's interesting things that I've thought about for the first time on deeper levels over the last few years, such as you know, there were conversations after October 7th where people were talking about um, you know, um, anti-Semitism and people were talking about um, Islamophobia and all of these things that we've have really been at the forefront, probably I mean, my entire lifetime, but really more since 9/11.

[00:22:03]And I think the thing that I realized that was really interesting is that misogyny and sexism is sort of this scentless, tasteless thing that it's almost like how you give cilantro to somebody and someone's like, "Oh, it's spicy." And someone else is like, "It tastes like soap."

[00:22:24]>> Mhm.

[00:22:24]>> It's like, a woman can have like something happen and it could be a microaggression or it could be something that's usually if if it's something smaller or unforeseen or undetected by a man, that it's if it's an obvious thing that a man might step in. But if a woman says like, "Hey, did you see what that person did or said?"

[00:22:42]It's weird that like when you speak up about it, there's people who are like have a vested interest in telling you that it didn't happen.

[00:22:50]>> Mhm.

[00:22:51]>> And I can only I don't know what that's like, but I know what it's like as a black man to to watch something happen that is so [ __ ] racist and I've said something to a group of white friends and they're like, "Really? Like, are you sure it isn't?" And like, the idea that someone is trying to like, why are you coming from a place of like, why can't you just accept that this person said that?

[00:23:14]>> Yeah.

[00:23:14]>> I'm not trying to get into the the offender's head or heart, but this is how it felt to me.

[00:23:20]>> Right.

[00:23:20]>> And this is what I experienced.

[00:23:23]And you're saying, "What if?" And to me, that's a lot like, "Well, what was she wearing?"

[00:23:28]>> Yeah, yeah. They're like, "Oh, they didn't mean it like that." Or that yeah.

[00:23:32]>> Or like, "Well, what was she wearing?"

[00:23:33]Or did she Did she flirt with him first?

[00:23:35]It's like the same kind of like, we're not talking about that. We're talking about something that happened to someone. And so, when I started to look at it, again, intersectionality, when I started to apply the way I've experienced things that are hurtful or or dangerous >> Mhm.

[00:23:54]>> to what it must be like to a woman who is already operating in a system with less privi- privileges and less system set in place for her to feel safe or to feel power, right? If you want to go back to that word then that's [ __ ] crazy. Whether you're on a subway, whether you're in a job place, like a workplace, whether you're in a social situation and then you add like, of course like, it's always been men have always been dangerous and so it's always been unsafe for women. Like, of course, like, but I don't know that it's ever been financially beneficial for media companies to put out so much harmful things that are directly affecting women.

[00:24:43]>> That's new.

[00:24:44]>> That's new. And it's radicalizing millions of kids.

[00:24:49]>> Yeah.

[00:24:50]>> That's [ __ ] so scary.

[00:24:52]>> That's interesting. That is scary. I've I've like not thought about that specific take before, so that's really interesting.

[00:25:00]>> I mean like it they're only going to put out whether you're talking about CBS, Paramount, Warner, all one company. I mean we're like we're getting to this point to where there's a few people who are controlling all of the media. And if nobody was listening to these manosphere people, they would drop them. They wouldn't give them 50 or 100 million dollar Spotify deals, they would just drop them. But the audience is there and there's an appetite for it. Just in the same way that I think that like the election of Barack O- like there would be no Trump, there would be no MAGA if it wasn't for the election of Barack Obama and there being a black president.

[00:25:33]But I think one thing that I I don't think a lot of people have really maybe people have talked about it, I haven't seen it. Is I think that it was actually Michelle Obama who was actually more offensive and more frightening to the average white man in America than Barack Obama.

[00:25:52]>> Uh yeah, Liz Plank just wrote an article about this yesterday I think it came out about Michelle Obama.

[00:25:58]>> um UFC thing.

[00:26:01]I mean on on its face the situation, yes Barack is like me, he's mixed, he's light-skinned, he grew up in Iowa and Hawaii, there's an otherness to him.

[00:26:11]He's more palatable and more sort of I guess you could say he's obviously not passing, but like he's more an acceptable black man to a certain type of white person or Latin person or just non-black person.

[00:26:26]Michelle is black. Like she's not and I'm not saying that like I'm not black as a mixed person, but like she is black capital B black. She is from Chicago, she is amazing and her full the fullest expression of herself and she never toned it down or made it easier for the average American, which is a lot and the reaction about that it's misogynoir. It's racism and it's sexism boiled into one. And there's a particular distaste for black women in America for a lot of people, including white women. Which is why fourth-wave feminism is so important because it's centering non-white women.

[00:27:08]>> Mhm.

[00:27:08]>> And trans women, right? So, I just think that like I think we're [ __ ] I I really think we're [ __ ] because until we can call that out and and just like just like people of color call on white allies, accomplices, friends to stand in the in the way of ICE, to get on the front lines with their bodies and their their placards and their slogans to fight the fight, I think it's not women's job to call out what's happening in the manosphere and with this like [ __ ] male loneliness epidemic, I think it's men's job.

[00:27:55]The same way that it's white allies' job to say, "Hey, like we're going to put our our [ __ ] bodies and our hearts on the line for fighting for black lives." I think it's important for dudes to take up the fight. So, it's not for me like a like a virtue signaling thing. It's like I want the world to be a a more kind and safer place and I see it heading into something that's darker than anything I've ever seen.

[00:28:21]And I think the profit behind it is what drives it.

[00:28:23]>> Mhm. Of course. Yeah, the profit of extremism and it's just getting more extreme because it's so hard to shock anybody anymore. So, we just have to keep going, pushing, pushing, pushing harder into these territories that are just like cuz shock sells.

[00:28:41]>> Shock sells. And I think that like, you know, when people get older, they get more conservative. And I don't mean conservative as in like GOP conservative, but in the true sense of conservatism versus liberalism.

[00:28:55]Liberalism meaning like, I'm willing to pay more for my healthcare so that like if you have a pre-existing condition, you're going to be okay. Conservatism is the idea that like, I want to protect my own. Everyone should pull themselves up from their bootstraps, and it's the antithesis of liberalism. And I don't mean like liberalism in the sense of like liberal ideas that um anti-capitalist or like people on on the left use liberalism as a bad word, which I don't consider myself a liberal for that reason, but that's a whole other side conversation. But I think that when you think of conservatism, the older men get, the more conservative they get.

[00:29:33]Cuz they're scared. Because their virility goes. They lose their hair.

[00:29:37]They lose their erection. They lose their sense of purpose. They lose their job to somebody younger, to somebody more strong and virile, or smarter, or more educated, or cheaper pay. And I think that like all this [ __ ] is linked.

[00:29:52]And I'm not like a Marxist, but like that's tied into capitalism. If we weren't working in such scarcity, then there wouldn't be the same fear. There would still be fears, but that fear is more based around men losing power. And so my question is, well like why do we need power?

[00:30:08]>> Because we need money, and that's money and power are go hand-in-hand.

[00:30:13]>> Right, but the idea of like male-centered power. Like, I don't need power.

[00:30:18]Like I only want power as far as it allows me to do the things that um I think will be fun or creative or helpful for me or other people.

[00:30:30]Or to use a voice to do something, whether it's >> guess that depends on how you define power. Like what that means to you.

[00:30:38]Yeah, cuz I don't I wouldn't say I need like power over others, but power in the world is very important to me.

[00:30:47]>> 100% and that comes with voice, right?

[00:30:50]Like but I think that power in a in a in a under sort of ideas of like a male dominated society and patriarchy, it's usually power over others.

[00:31:00]>> Yeah.

[00:31:01]>> And that's weird.

[00:31:02]>> Yeah.

[00:31:03]>> [laughter] >> Cuz I don't like having decision-making power over people. Like I don't even like choosing where we eat at night.

[00:31:10]>> [laughter] >> Seriously.

[00:31:13]>> That's weird.

[00:31:15]>> Like it's just it's a lot of responsibility and like it doesn't mean I'm not a controlling person.

[00:31:20]But it doesn't but I don't >> But you're controlling in your own way.

[00:31:23]>> [laughter] >> In my own >> special way.

[00:31:25]>> Yeah, my own body, my what I eat, what I do. Like I don't want to control you.

[00:31:31]>> Yeah.

[00:31:31]>> Um So like I think that we're in a really weird position. So like what's manly about me?

[00:31:39]>> [laughter] >> I don't I don't know that I'm very very comfortable with my feminine.

[00:31:46]>> Mhm.

[00:31:47]>> I'm very comfortable in all fem spaces.

[00:31:53]I'm comfortable in all queer spaces. I am I hate the term secure in your masculinity because I think that that's still protecting the same thing we're talking about.

[00:32:06]>> Yeah.

[00:32:06]>> I think it's like all part of the same bad information.

[00:32:09]>> Right. You're still like sort of centering your uh you know, stereotypical masculinity if you say I'm comfortable in my masculinity.

[00:32:18]>> what I'm saying? That's like that's so like what is that even >> It sounds it gives insecure. It reads insecure.

[00:32:25]>> [ __ ] insecure. That's what I'm saying. So like for me it's like >> Yeah.

[00:32:31]So >> I don't I just think that the idea of like a deep voice, like strong, muscular, like all that [ __ ] is just dumb. Like I grew up like a skater and like an artist and I'm from LA and like my voice sounds like I don't have like a masculine voice. I don't want to hear the ideas about masculinity. Most of the people that I was interested in as a young person like I wasn't like growing up being like I want to be like [ __ ] Hulk Hogan, like you know what I mean or Rambo cuz I'm a child of the 70s and 80s. I was thinking like I want to be Perry Farrell.

[00:33:11]>> Uh-huh.

[00:33:12]>> Or you know what I mean or I want to be like Marvin Gaye. Like like I don't know. Like you know what I mean? Like people that definitely were not modeling traditional outward projections of what was masculine. Like Iggy Pop is hot. You know what I mean? Like um Like Jimi Hendrix is hot. Like you know I think I like I don't It's just It's just a weird conversation. I mean think about how many times like how many interviews Kurt Cobain did where he was just speaking out against the sort of type of dude at the shows. And I think that that's That was incredibly punk rock of him. And he used that platform to uplift and amplify others and I think that that's really dope and and that caught on. So like I think we need other people Like the coolest thing is like okay like when when like Adam Horovitz like as a Beastie Boy was one of I think the most important musicians since [ __ ] Beatles. Like one of the greatest American groups of all time.

[00:34:26]But they had like a lot of problematic [ __ ] that they did in the beginning. So like when like Yauch started hanging with the Dalai Lama and like doing concerts for Tibet and like learning about like other things happening outside of his world and when Adam Horovitz like you know, partnered up with one of the most incredible like third wave feminist in Kathleen Hanna Bikini Kill and started learning about the way that they like the things they put out in the world were like really fratty and dumb and everything. Like he become he became like a more important artist because he they started like projecting something out into the world in one way to make amends for the sort of stereotypes they reinforced, but also just like going like that's not cool, this is cool. And I think that we need more people like that or Kurt or people who are embodying that now rather than like I mean, there's literally was just a [ __ ] UFC fight on the White House lawn.

[00:35:24]>> Yeah.

[00:35:24]>> That's like like I don't even watch like fighting. And and if you do, that's fine. Like I'm not against that. Like but it's it's so gross. Like we've we've really reached that idiocracy level.

[00:35:36]>> Well, yeah, we're living idiocracy for sure. You're my first rock star on this show. So >> I wouldn't [laughter] say that.

[00:35:47]>> Uh you are. You don't have to say it.

[00:35:49]>> small metric.

[00:35:50]>> have to say it. I'll say it. You're the first You're the first rock star on Manthropology. So thank you for for being that.

[00:35:58]But um what >> too much about it.

[00:36:01]>> [laughter] >> But like you know, you're talking about sort of it's almost like a like a you know, the artist and we're we don't do this sort of stereotypical masculine thing, but don't you think there's just like such a problem in the music industry with misogyny like >> So unsafe. So unsafe for women.

[00:36:23]Completely a predatory system.

[00:36:26]>> And then you have like all these men that are like so cool and they don't come off as like your typical >> Yeah.

[00:36:32]>> man that you would maybe feel safe with but the rock stars are like the scariest.

[00:36:39]>> Totally.

[00:36:39]>> scariest.

[00:36:41]>> Yeah. I mean it's interesting because >> see a lot of that? Do you experience that or is it the thing where men don't, you know, men treat men differently than the way they treat women and so you just don't see it as much?

[00:36:56]>> Oh, I see it for sure. Especially because when I was doing a lot of like producing and executive producing and sort of A&R with younger artists and developing artists who are not young but who are just at an early stage in their career.

[00:37:11]Um a lot of times in the beginning it was young women who are coming to me. And if I had a session where they were coming over to my studio for the first time, like I generally would like call my wife at the top of the session and have a like a conversation in front of them to sort of just like I mean cuz I I don't know if young people like when I say young people I mean like I'm 53 so everybody's young to me. But um but like I don't know if people look at ring thing like rings anymore. And I automatically assume that if somebody's wearing a ring that they're not going to flirt or be a scumbag.

[00:37:53]>> But if somebody's wearing a ring, it doesn't >> That's crazy.

[00:37:57]>> matter. Doesn't mean anything.

[00:37:59]>> That's wild.

[00:37:59]>> Yeah. If you're a woman, that's almost like a man with a ring is just as bad as a man without a ring.

[00:38:05]>> Dude, they'll just be wearing a ring and like >> There's no difference.

[00:38:09]>> hit on you like >> Yeah.

[00:38:11]>> Yeah. So like I don't know if >> like, you know, uh recently I'm in my 40s and this [ __ ] still happens.

[00:38:17]>> Yeah, I mean that's that's wild. I mean for me I would just like hop on the horn with the missus and just have a conversation just so that somebody would just be like and then it would inspire conversation like, oh, you're married?

[00:38:28]I'm like, yeah, and I have a kid and I show a picture of my kid or whatever.

[00:38:31]Because I wanted us to be able to have a conversation about music or whatever purpose I was serving in that moment of being of service or being mentoree mentee mentee mentor or producing a song or writing a song. I just wanted them not to think about the thing that I know every woman from having conversations with them goes into a session thinking, is this dude trying to like smash? Is this dude trying to make it happen? Is this dude trying to like like hook up with me? Which is like I can't imagine like again, I don't know how many dudes would walk would like put themselves in a position like, what would it be like if every time I went to go work, somebody was trying to [ __ ] me.

[00:39:16]Like that's crazy.

[00:39:19]That's crazy.

[00:39:21]Like that's a crazy thing.

[00:39:23]>> [laughter] >> Like I can't I literally can't imagine that. Like I just because then you can't be your authentic self.

[00:39:32]>> You're always having to be guarded or or flirt so that you don't lose the job or the session or having to play into someone's ego, you know, it's like a game. It's like a constant battle.

[00:39:45]>> So it's [ __ ] insane. So when I was single and working in the music industry, if I was interested in someone like for dating or hooking up or whatever, then I would never work with that person.

[00:40:01]>> Yeah.

[00:40:02]>> Or like um you know, or I was just remembering because when we met, you were making music and you were looking for a producer and I don't know if you remember this, you were like, "Hey, blah, blah, blah."

[00:40:25]You You said something and we talked about music and I was like and like we met at like Teddy's or like the Roosevelt or something and I was like, "I'm just very conscious of when somebody is looking for a connection or or um and a situation cuz one of my things I love I love connecting people.

[00:40:48]Like that's like my favorite [ __ ] thing. It's like, "Oh, dude, you're going to love this person. You guys got to get together." or "We should all do a thing together." or you know who might be helpful and I I love being a connector and doing that sort of thing. And so um you know, you had had some drinks when we met.

[00:41:10]I was sober and you said something about, you know, music or something and I like completely sidestepped. I was like I was just like not having that conversation because I was just like it just didn't seem appropriate, whatever.

[00:41:22]And then like you ended up finding the right people to to work with and and and and have make your music. But to me there's something like Thank god we have like So I'm just trying to gather all my thoughts cuz it's really interesting cuz it also like it goes into like that scarcity thing.

[00:41:41]Like if you have a laptop right?

[00:41:45]Like then you don't need the dude with the studio.

[00:41:48]>> Mhm.

[00:41:49]>> You know what I mean? And you don't need the guy with the experience or the thing. And so like I think the democratization of the means of making art and putting it out there is ultimately dismantling some of those structures and things that made like the guy with the recording studio or the guy with the [ __ ] desk and you want to play him the demo.

[00:42:16]>> That guy is losing his power and he's pissed.

[00:42:21]>> [laughter] >> That That makes me very happy cuz >> Cuz we can just go straight to the source. We can just create our own shows. We can create our own music. We can just put it out into the world without any gatekeeper at this point.

[00:42:35]>> Totally. I mean they still have their hand on the hose and are going like this going, "Oh, we're only going to let these people through the streaming services cuz they have their sweetheart deals and shit." But you're not like I mean I've seen the I mean I've been in the record industry for like 35 years, like working in it. And I've seen some unbelievably heinous stuff where I'm just like like And when I say seen, I mean like not witness to. I mean women telling me like, "Oh, yeah, like for sure these dudes who I've been on sessions with or like who are supposed to be producers or A&Rs or label heads were like, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

[00:43:18]Okay, do you want to go out for a drink?" Like I was up for a job in A&R years ago and I was over qualified.

[00:43:29]I had all the experience necessary.

[00:43:32]I had completely wowed the [ __ ] out of the person who is the VP who brought me in.

[00:43:38]There was a layer to this where there was executive management. So kind of like head hunter where like the executives had managers and now it was down to me being in the room with the new president of the label.

[00:43:50]The vice president, the head of A&R myself and the president all had the same executive manager. So like like a like a sort of pawn like a like a what do you call like a kingmaker? Like somebody who's like, "I'm going to put you all in a room and this is like a slam dunk. You're going to get the job.

[00:44:08]Talk to the guy, who's like, here's what I can do. I was like, I can bridge these two worlds cuz I could sit down with your sort of classic rock artists who are the more white artists. I can I I came up in hip-hop. I understand this side of it. Like I I was like, my multiculturalism and my background provided insight to where I was going to operate between two divisions unlike anyone else in the building. Long story short, the guy brought me in and was like, this is amazing. Looks like you're going to get the job. Everything's great. Shortly after that, a woman came in for a job.

[00:44:40]I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A woman came in to shop a band. She played the guy some music, the the head of the label, and was like, hey, like, check out this this band. He said, oh, that's really cool.

[00:44:51]Yeah, like, you manage them. I'd like to sign them. They sound great.

[00:44:55]Oh, you're a musician yourself? I play that instrument, too. Oh my god, so much so much synchronicity. This is great.

[00:45:01]Um, have you ever thought about doing A&R?

[00:45:05]Gave her the job.

[00:45:07]And then, it became clear afterwards that his intentions were not entirely on the up and up.

[00:45:15]>> Mhm.

[00:45:16]>> I think there's legal ramifications to where I probably couldn't say more than that. But like, I was gobsmacked that some friends were like, yeah, you didn't get the job because the record industry is super [ __ ] racist, dude. And like, you don't fit into a box. Like, you don't go to the play golf with the same dudes.

[00:45:31]You don't fit the mold. You don't drive a [ __ ] Tesla.

[00:45:35]>> Mhm.

[00:45:36]>> You're not white. Like, all these things. And then, the truth was, it wasn't that. It was just a really gross thing that we're talking about about the record industry and the guy obviously sexualizing somebody who just wanted to work.

[00:45:54]>> Mhm.

[00:45:54]>> Went into the building going, I want to like do right for this band that I manage, and came out with like, [ __ ] like, I have have job now.

[00:46:00]>> Yeah.

[00:46:01]>> And then it was like, oh, you expect like a quid pro quo?

[00:46:05]And that's just like something that like I felt personally and had There's so many layers to that.

[00:46:10]>> Yeah, yeah. Everybody loses.

[00:46:12]>> Everybody loses because the dude is just thinking with his dick.

[00:46:15]>> Yeah. And I'm sure that didn't pan out well for her either with that job.

[00:46:22]>> No, and literally everyone loses. And like it's just weird. It's like someone said on an on an episode of your your thing it's like it's like thinking with a small piece of flesh.

[00:46:38]>> [laughter] >> Like Like the idea that like you're making life-altering decisions for yourself and another person based on like something that could be handled by like going for a wank.

[00:46:53]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:53]>> [laughter] >> Based on lust.

[00:46:55]>> That's crazy.

[00:46:56]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:58]>> It's crazy.

[00:46:58]>> So, all right. Let's Let's land this plane. What What would you do if you were a woman for a day?

[00:47:06]What would that experience be?

[00:47:15]>> Wow. What would I do if I was a woman for a day?

[00:47:25]I would probably just be a want to be in like see what it's like to be in an all-female space.

[00:47:31]>> Mhm.

[00:47:32]>> That's it.

[00:47:32]>> Yeah. Just be around other women and be >> Yeah, there's no like >> in that without like people Yeah, see how how people treat you in a different way.

[00:47:42]>> Yeah.

[00:47:42]>> Yeah.

[00:47:43]>> Just to be at like not even in a fly-in-the-wall just like just have a different experience. Cuz I can't have a baby, right? So like we're talking about for a day. Cuz that was the first thing I thought of, but it's just like, okay, like >> were a woman for like a year, you would want to have a baby. You would want to actually experience that that feeling.

[00:47:59]>> I mean, I think that'd be the coolest thing.

[00:48:01]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, not to actual childbirth cuz that sounds like I mean, obviously men can't handle that kind of pain. But like, I mean, that'd be pretty sick to like know what it's like to be pregnant, you know?

[00:48:11]>> Yeah.

[00:48:12]Wow.

[00:48:13]>> I think. But um But like, for a day, just hang out with other women and just like see But even then, like for a day, in that in this example, I'm cognizant of being a man >> Yeah.

[00:48:26]>> in that space.

[00:48:27]>> Yeah, you're all right. So, you'd be like, "Oh."

[00:48:29]>> No, but then you're just like a spy.

[00:48:31]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:33]>> But if it's could be like you can be that and then you're just experiencing it as you, but your perception is that you are the way you are embodied there.

[00:48:41]>> Yeah.

[00:48:42]>> I would be down for that. To just be like a day as a girl.

[00:48:44]>> Yeah, you really are like a woman.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah, not like, "Okay, I know that I'm a woman."

[00:48:49]>> to be a woman. You are a woman for that day. Yeah.

[00:48:53]>> [laughter] >> It is. It's very 80s movie. It's very Freaky Friday.

[00:48:56]>> Yeah, if I could just body swap but with you know, if I could Freaky Friday without knowing that who Justin is as a dude, I would be down for that for a day, for sure.

[00:49:05]>> Yeah.

[00:49:05]>> Um But like, the weird thing is is like I was having a conversation at dinner the other night with a group of friends and we were talking about um Oh, I Okay, so we did this like show and there was like this um this female band that I love was a part of the show and they just got off the road the day before and they were super tired cuz they'd been driving in a van and all that and I was like and I was like hanging out with them and I was playing a show with them and then I was like sitting at dinner a couple nights later with a group of friends and bunch of women, one who I play with and I was like, "I have a question." And she's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "So, like when they just got off the road, they're on the road together and like this thing that like women can like like their periods can sync up >> Mhm. like if you're around each other in proximity. I was like, "That's so fascinating." And so we started talking about it. And I was like, "I get it like our bodies are whatever 70% water or whatever like somebody was like pheromones. We started talking about like different reasons why.

[00:50:11]Like why do women's periods sync up when they're together? And the dude at the table who's like a good dude, but it was hilarious cuz he goes, "Well, I think evolutionarily there's a reason that if you think about going back in time thousands of years that if the most like fit or whatever man wants to breed, right? That if there is a group of women that if they were around each other and all had their periods in sync, then they would be ovulating at the same time which made them all possible I don't know what would you call it at that point if it's that [ __ ] it's like hosts for like this child, right? Like it's [ __ ] And he's like, "So that makes them all like ready to mate."

[00:50:58]>> Yeah.

[00:50:59]>> In this Darwinian thing.

[00:51:01]And he tells this thing and we all look at each other and we all nod. I'm like, "Huh, that makes a lot of sense." And I go, "You managed to like take the witchiest most feminine most like nature all feminine divine thing and center it around [laughter] dudes."

[00:51:21]>> And that is the rub.

[00:51:25]>> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:51:27]It's a great way to end, right?

[00:51:28]>> Yeah, that's a great way to end. Thank you so much, Justin.

[00:51:33]I love having you.

[00:51:43]>> [music]