Discovering Better Logics in a Binary World | Dr. Tamice Spencer-Helms | TNE Podcasts

[00:00:00]Oh friends, what's up? Welcome back to the podcast. I am Tim Whitiger, the host. Today, this is such a I Dr. Timmy Spencer Helms is not only a great friend, but also on the board of the New Evangelicals and is so wise. I love talking to them. I'm such a huge fan.

[00:00:14]This conversation is going to stretch you in all kinds of ways. This is a deep one, so don't get distracted. If you're driving, lock in. Lock in to this one.

[00:00:22]If you're listening while you're cleaning, lock into this one. This is a deep important conversation about the logic of whiteness and how queerness and other other ways of being uh kingdom-minded can flip all that upside down. This is such a beautiful conversation. So, make sure you listen to it in its entirety. I would love your feedback on it. And of course, friends, um make sure to check out TN Connect.

[00:00:44]It's our free online community space full of amazing people and resources helping you find a better path forward in faith. You can get it on the new evangelicals.com/connect or on the App Store or Google Play Store. All right, friends. Enjoy this conversation. Talk to you'all later.

[00:01:03][music] [music] [music] Oh, you really did. Dr. Tami Spencer Helms, a good friend, someone who's also on the board of TNE. Great to see you.

[00:01:34]Thank you for making time. It's It's good to be with you again.

[00:01:37]>> Of course, it's good to be here, friend.

[00:01:39]Thanks for having me.

[00:01:40]>> I I Yeah, for of course. Not even a question. Can you introduce yourself to the audience? I'm sure we have some new people who are listening and although you've been on the you've been on the show a lot, we we got history from years ago with your book and everything. Give people the introduction.

[00:01:55]>> Sure. So, I guess probably I was introducing myself back then as a person thinking about how to reconstruct my faith. Um I'm coming now probably as a person who's clear about it and >> uh clear as can be, clear as I can be right now. um with with clarity on the fact that everything will unravel once again and that will be fun. Uh but right now I'm showing up as really as a black modern mystic. I'm really kind of claiming that as my way of doing post-Christian faith and life. And it looks like taking seriously um the upside down nature of the kingdom. And if you're putting that in terms of hierarchy, then like blackness is kind of a commitment to staying in the way of Jesus that is usually around marginalization and oppression and speaking from that place to power. And then I'm a mystic like I like to spend time in stillness and meditation. And um I think plants can teach us and I'm I'm really coming more into contact with my identity as a mystic. It's been beautiful. So, that's how I'm showing up these days. And if there's noise in the background, there's lunch arriving. So, sorry.

[00:03:13]>> Nothing our our editor can't take care of. So, >> I appreciate [laughter] you, editor.

[00:03:17]Thank you.

[00:03:18]>> Um, you know, it's interesting because when I the first interaction I had with you was I found you online under your name at the time. You weren't under Black Modern Mystic. You're under you're just your name to me Spencer Helms. And you wrote a book called Unleaven.

[00:03:30]>> Still my name.

[00:03:31]>> Yeah. Right. No, still your name but [laughter] online. And you wrote a book, Unleavened. Uh I have it on my shelf somewhere. I read it. Really crazy story because you came out of uh out of IHOP, which is not the International House of Pancakes, but International House of Prayer, the Charismatic World. I mean, tell me, let's just recap briefly kind of part of that journey because that was only a few years ago, right? How long ago was that?

[00:03:52]>> It was.

[00:03:53]>> Yeah. Um well, I left IHOP at 28 years old. I moved to Atlanta. So that was in like I don't know, 2012, 2013. It was right after Trayvon Martin.

[00:04:03]>> Okay. Um, and then a few years ago, IHOP KC was like found out to be a cult. And I remember when I left, I was like, it feels very culty. I'm reading books about cults and they feel like they fit, but there's no weird sex stuff, so I don't think it was a cult. And then we found out weird sex. [laughter] >> Oh, yeah.

[00:04:25]>> Later on, I was like, seriously? Yep. I was the final check of the box, you know, [laughter] and circle gets the square, you know.

[00:04:36]>> So, it was like I was in that space, but you know, I grew I was evangelical, charismatic. I mean, grew up in black church, came through um met white Jesus.

[00:04:44]We talked about that at 17. And then, but I I think it's because I was wired am wired um for truth and the pursuit of like God. I really wanted to touch God and uh still do >> and so it led me into places that took advantage of that pursuit and passion. But I don't think that I think the thing that has come out of all that time for me is that that quest and that pursuit was not put into me by the people who took advantage of it. And so I get to keep it. And now I'm letting that be something that I claim online to say I'm post whatever closure is, you know, like I I'm going to claim this curiosity that's been with me since I was a child. Um, and that seems to have a lot to do with Jesus, [laughter] you know. So I feel like those are the things that feel >> most true right now between now and then. And when IHOP told me that we were going to bring Jesus back because we were singing and praying and fasting and just doing all manner of weird things now that I look back, I believed them because why wouldn't I? I mean, you don't know not to trust the thing until it bites you, you know?

[00:06:08]>> Yeah.

[00:06:09]>> Um Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:10]>> And so I learned from that experience and I'm grateful for that experience because now I can I can sniff it out a mile away. [laughter] So >> yeah, it's been interesting watching your own journey from from a distance and then you you and I see each other a couple times a year at different events.

[00:06:25]It's always good to check in, you know, but you're you you've been evolving with with like your spirituality. You always have so much wisdom to offer. You're also black and you're also queer, right?

[00:06:34]So you're you're like running so many different intersectionalities at one time. And obviously we're in the middle of Pride Month. We're we're trying to celebrate that obviously given what's going on around us. Talk to me about like how these things intersect for you as a person because I mean they're all all three of them. Uh religious identity, you know, um and then who you are as a person both in terms of of race and sexuality are like big categories for how they move throughout the world, right? How do you see them kind of intersecting and how have you peeled back some of those layers?

[00:07:05]>> Oh man, that's such a good question, Tim. I mean, I think it's interesting because today I'm actually the the stuff that you hear I'm actually at work. I work I'm a part of a spiritual community in Richmond.

[00:07:16]>> And today we were talking about um triple consciousness and this experience that um that I think people who are black and queer have in the world, which is like we experience exclusion in white space and in black space because of our embodiment. And so I think that experience and then if you add Neurospicy to the mix then it's even more and I've kind of wrapped all of this up and I hope people who are who do queer theory and things forgive me for that but I've wrapped all of this up into queer phobia because queerness is is about the norm your relationship to whatever the norm is. And um I think what queer people teach us is um that the rules are arbitrary because we break them all the time. Now you somebody you know Jim's stomach might turn in the chili if he sees a trans woman walking but she's in her body >> and that's the difference between Jim Jim and that trans woman. And that's why the trans woman has so much to teach Jim >> because the the ways that we have experienced reality have been so disconnected from our actual bodies, from actual feeling, from even actual pleasure. Most things in our world are about what you can do with your mind and how much money it can make, right?

[00:08:39]>> And what queer people do is teach you that life can be about something completely different. Um, life can be about wanting to be here now, present to your community, present to your world in relationship to the world around you in ways that I think theologies that have not been like baptized in queerness or in in blackness in my opinion, you know, they they don't they don't offer us enough to rupture what we're facing now.

[00:09:11]And that's why I think you all having conversations with queer people and queer people becoming more and more invited to the table to speak, not spoken about, but like actually invited to speak. Like I think we'll begin to see >> how much queer people point us to the expansiveness of the divine, which is what we need right now because there are basically two groups of people defining Christianity [laughter] right now. And neither one of them is very interesting to me or lifegiving or able to push back against any of this.

[00:09:47]>> So, we have to start.

[00:09:50]>> I mean, I think there's the one group that's like it's really it's a really great photo op to be arrested with my priestly stuff on, right? But it actually doesn't undermine the system.

[00:10:01]But we're going to claim Christianity this way. We're going to show that Christianity gets arrested. I think that that works. It's not not working. It just isn't enough to undermine because Christianity is so up for grabs because you have people who saying they were Christians storming the capital.

[00:10:18]>> Yeah.

[00:10:19]>> So now we can get in an argument over who is doing what and people will say, "Well, Jesus says to love." I get that Jesus says to love, but two people are claiming Christianity right now and are doing things in the name of the Christianity they claim. And so the modifiers aren't helping us get to this root problem of like maybe y'all the we're wasting energy on ownership when we should be putting it into what is love really trying to teach us to do right now. Like we could be putting it into ethics and values and not arguing over which version of Christianity is correct because essentially that's an argument over ownership. I'm doing it right and you're doing it wrong. But it doesn't matter at the end of the day because people are doing Christianity in a million different ways.

[00:11:08]>> Right. Right.

[00:11:09]>> So what is it? Right. And and how does it speak to our time? And so I appreciate the ways that people's Christianity is pushing them to act. I'm just saying when it becomes a photo op, when it becomes a a an Olympics for like we win the monopoly, then we have to ask the question of like, okay, so then now what do we want? Everyone to bow to this and how is that different than what we've been fighting against?

[00:11:40]>> Yeah, >> we have to ask these are the questions that we have to start asking. What do we mean?

[00:11:46]And what does it have to do with Jesus?

[00:11:48]And I think when Jesus comes to the forefront, which is where me and you connect and so many beautiful people online that I connect with, it's Jesus.

[00:11:57]What we have in common is Jesus who was not Christian. And so we don't have to argue about this. We We really don't have to argue. We can look back at Jesus and go, "Now, what was this man telling us to do? Maybe we should revisit >> Yeah.

[00:12:14]>> Maybe we should revisit this." like what what was he saying about because I'm like I don't know what else y'all need.

[00:12:20]He actually did put a statue >> that's golden up.

[00:12:25]>> He actually did tweet a picture of himself in the holy place, >> right?

[00:12:30]>> He actually has said horrific things. He actually is in those files that many times, right?

[00:12:35]>> I don't know what else y'all need to see, >> right?

[00:12:38]>> In order to ask new questions, >> right? because not because I'm trying to be a rabble rouser, not because I'm trying to cause trouble, but I'm like, I believe Jesus. So, if this is not matching that, I'm going back to look and I'm okay with being wrong, >> right?

[00:12:56]>> And that's where I feel like I wish we would just have more bravery around wrongness.

[00:13:07]You know, there are so many threads that you kind of pull that I would, man, we could be here. Of course, last time we went over, we're not gonna go over >> talking like homies.

[00:13:16]>> Yeah. But, you know, I have been thinking about what you said about like, you know, uh, people getting arrested and kind of protesting if that's enough or not. And I had this thought a while ago and I have no this is an out loud kind of thing but I do kind of think sometimes and I I don't want to downplay the importance of uh of protesting and like the civil rights movement like I'm not that you know I'm not saying that that this is a bad thing. I do wonder so sometimes especially in this moment >> if like part of the system of this part of the carousel that we're on it includes people doing that protesting and then we kind of go back to the status quo right okay have your moment we're going to arrest you you have the photo op and then guess what Lockheed Martin is still the one of the largest contractors for the military bombing people across the world right and I can under you know it's funny and again I'm I'm not that knowledgeable on this stuff but I can see how there could be dichotoies and differences in in in in these kinds of progressive movements between like your revolutionaries and your folks who are like, "Hey, we have to work within the system to change the system." You know, we we we protest civily versus people saying, "Burn this thing down to the ground." Right?

[00:14:23]Because I I if if America right now is for example exporting 42% of all arms across the globe, if we're responsible for 42% of all of the missiles and all the weapons around the globe, I don't know if protesting Loheed Martin once a year is really going to do anything, right? I think we need something more extreme. But I also don't believe necessarily that, you know, some kind of violent revolution is the answers. I do believe in love and I believe in nonviolence, but I also see the the the quagmire there, you know, and I kind of wrestle through these things in my head all the time.

[00:14:58]>> Do you know what? It's like funny because I'm like talking I'm forgetting that we're recording because I'm like I'm about to talk to you like we talk.

[00:15:04]But like it's so funny because this is where I think we missed it. The queer piece and this is Pride Month, right? Like >> Yeah.

[00:15:13]>> So there were so many queer and female leaders talking to Dr. King and the civil rights movement at the time and they were saying if you don't if you make concessions in certain arenas it will backfire.

[00:15:26]>> We're there.

[00:15:28]>> But because they were women and because they were queer they were going to undermine the advancement.

[00:15:35]>> So the upward mobility >> was in jeopardy because queer people were just a little too much too far.

[00:15:42]Bridge too far.

[00:15:43]>> It was going too far. Right. We're going to incrementally get here. But you see like the reason that if that I'm having this conversation is like I'm trying to show people the you know we are going backwards because we reached the end of the logics.

[00:16:00]>> Okay.

[00:16:00]>> Currently yeah that that currently got >> anywhere else >> right is that trapped in a loop.

[00:16:06]>> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:08]>> They're going they're trying to go back to Jim Crow >> right >> because there's nowhere else for whiteness to go. It's a logic that depends on not being black. So, as long as blackness stays a problem, as long as it stays a thing to avoid, then what happens is we could argue about it all day. When you say that there needs to be something more extreme, I agree. But I don't think that that's new. I think that there were lots of queer people, fims, and mystics telling us um it's about something internal. It's about where we locate power and it's about like how we wield power, what we wield power for. If you could tackle James Baldwin hit us with this, right? Like it's why so many even I mean even even James Baldwin the way that James Baldwin talks about love the way Bard Rustin talked about love the reason like Jesus talks about love and how a lot of them speak about violence in a certain way because it is not about winning the day it is about not opting into the logics >> that is the more extreme thing the more extreme thing is to not want what they say you should want >> right >> and to prove that you don't need it.

[00:17:25]>> But you're going to have to. The only way to know that you don't need what empire is offering you is to go without it. This is why Jesus calls people into things like the sermon on the mount is to show you you don't need this stuff.

[00:17:39]You actually there is a world that you can live in that is not governed by these logics at all. It's called the kingdom.

[00:17:47]>> And in that kingdom you have what you need when you need it. And in that kingdom, everything is one, which is why I'm calling you to treat your enemy a certain way, which is why I'm calling you to think about yourself a certain way. In this kingdom, it's oneness. So, you don't have an option. Y'all got to figure this [ __ ] out.

[00:18:05]>> No one is expendable in that regard. If it's one thing, who are we doing without?

[00:18:12]So, so I feel like these are the things that that the arguments are getting in the way of these conversations of like what is Jesus telling you it means to be human, >> right?

[00:18:23]>> What is Jesus telling you the way to not only opt out of the system but to overcome it? What is he telling you to do? He's telling you to examine your appetites.

[00:18:34]>> He's telling you to pay attention to where you spend your money. He's telling you that you will have what you need.

[00:18:41]Don't worry.

[00:18:43]>> These are the things Jesus is telling us.

[00:18:45]>> It's a whole different framework, right?

[00:18:47]Whole different framework.

[00:18:48]>> Completely different world.

[00:18:49]>> I mean, then that makes sense because I'm I'm thinking about So, Matthew Taylor has a new book coming out called Defying Tyrants. It's a And it itam Yeah, it's really good. It's really good. It comes out, I think, in uh >> August or something.

[00:19:01]>> And he talks about the Gospel of Mark.

[00:19:03]how how Mark opens his gospel by saying the gospel of Jesus Christ and how obviously you know as modern readers we don't realize that Rome had their own gospel the word gospel comes from Rome not from not from Christianity right what's the good news of Rome power domination control right so when Rome announces their good news to a new territory that's the good news is hey we're going to rule over you uh yeah we'll provide you with certain things or we're going to be in charge and you're going to like it and and Caesar King Caesar, right?

[00:19:34]Caesar is Lord. Lord Caesar will is going to be the one who rules over you.

[00:19:38]And Mark opens up his gospel by saying the gospel of Jesus Christ and then paints this whole gospel narrative from beginning to end of a king who serves his creation, right? Who serves his people, who who who doesn't run a kingdom based on control and domination and fear. And so it really is, like you said, a different way entirely of thinking about how we are to move through the world as followers of that upside down kingdom. Right.

[00:20:04]>> Indeed. And it's the overlay. I mean, it's exactly what we're dealing with.

[00:20:09]You you have bases. You have military bases.

[00:20:14]>> Yep.

[00:20:14]>> Around the globe.

[00:20:17]>> You are now telling your military to march in the name of Jesus Christ.

[00:20:21]>> I know.

[00:20:23]What?

[00:20:24]>> We are here, friends.

[00:20:25]>> Yeah.

[00:20:25]>> I don't know what y'all think we're in, >> right?

[00:20:28]>> I don't know how much worse you think it's going to get.

[00:20:33]>> So, I don't know what else people need to see [laughter] at this point. And to me, it is that.

[00:20:42]And I'm excited about that book because it is that this man is giving you a cheat code for how to subvert >> this foolishness. But it has a lot power. So, how do you beat it? Locate your own and then wield it towards love and community.

[00:21:02]>> Period.

[00:21:03]>> Do you think watch >> do you do you sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just thinking here. Do you think that >> Okay, let's get a little spicy. Uh because, you know, obviously um we're not conservative right-wing Christians, but I and you and I you and I have talked about this. I I think about like white progressivism, white liberalism, and the white don't give me a white [laughter] >> like look and I want to be clear between these two dichotoies. I'm going to pick the white progressive tradition all day long, okay? Like this is I'm not trying to say both sides, but I do wonder if like and I I I'll tell you what, as a as a signal of me being able to say I'm wrong, I'll use myself as as an example here, right? I kind of had to catch myself in a moment of wondering am I repeating a fundamentalism in a different kind of way, right? Am I am I am I back in binaries in a certain kind of way just on the other side of this binary? Is this it? like is this largely white le progressive church thing the answer to these concerns that we all see or is it part of a much larger mosaic that should be learning from other ways of being entirely and these are the questions I think about you know when I'm off when when the camera's off and I'm you know up late at night like thinking about the world I just wonder I don't have an answer I'm not saying yes or no I'm just saying I just wonder you know because I think about and certainly throughout American history many white leaders were amazing allies of the abolitionist movement and I mean people who were forward thinking right but like the black liberation tradition in particular I believe is the antidote to Christian nationalism because it's been it's been resisting it since the beginning of this country right and it's had to it's had to figure out ways to resist the logics and the empire of white Christian nationalism and I just wonder if like that's where we especially us white folks should be drinking out of I'm not saying that white progressive people are bad or pastors are bad. I'm just saying I think I think that we're going to learn different ways of being entirely of this upside upside down kingdom in America by drinking somewhere else largely and not going back to the same trough that we're coming out of.

[00:23:15]>> Yeah, I I agree and I I do I have I have a kind of a Yeah, we are spicy. I have a kind of a nuance answer to it because it's like on the one hand, yes. Like I think it is very important just for folks who have been racialized as white.

[00:23:31]>> Yeah. to experience in their bodies um how hard it is to sit under the toutelage of a black person and and not to make a judgment about it, but to realize what happens in your body >> um when you are told that someone who is black, possibly queer, has authority over a text >> or over your learning. Yeah, >> that should be clue number one that that white body supremacy is something that we are all breathing and drinking and embibing unless we are intentionally putting up a mask or have developed an allergy to it, right? So, I think yes, like reading black theology, reading womanist theology, which was kind of a critique on black theology for the ways that it did take black women's experiences >> clearly. And then I would say third wave womanism because of the ways that womanist theology in the first and second waves didn't take queerness seriously.

[00:24:26]>> But I will say that like on the flip side of that, you know, project 2025 was written by somebody who got a minor in black studies. So it all also has to do the information alone is not enough.

[00:24:41]You have to want to hate white supremacy >> like right you you have to want it gone.

[00:24:47]And so that's the thing, like it's not enough to know our history and to know what our people say. And this is getting into white progressivism where I I have a little bit of a rub >> because I I I think that, let me preface it like this. I have a lot of compassion and empathy for folks who are waking up, but you just could not possibly know how deep white supremacy goes and how it infects your way of being in the world.

[00:25:18]>> And so it's not enough to become a progressive talking head on Instagram who quotes Bel Hooks.

[00:25:25]Like in some in some ways that feels almost offensive because it's like you have not had enough time to thoroughly deal with the ways that white body supremacy causes you to show up in the world. I don't care if you can read and analyze James Baldwin.

[00:25:42]>> I care about whether or not the ways that you show up in the world undermine white body supremacy. And that is rare.

[00:25:52]And that I mean I've seen you do it.

[00:25:54]I've seen be do it usually comes on the back end of reputational rub because you because whiteness is the only thing that cares about reputation and clout really because it's the only thing that validates it and celebrates it.

[00:26:10]>> Most other communities are collective >> and matriarchal, >> right?

[00:26:15]>> And so that means that they lean into interdependence. They lean into symbiosis. Whiteness is competitive.

[00:26:20]It's individualistic. It's rugged. It's it's just a mess. And so when So that's usually for me that's clue number one.

[00:26:29]Like if I sniff that I'm like you moving whiteness. We don't have a lot in common.

[00:26:33]>> So like I think when you talk about I sit up during the day or I sit up at night and I think about the world and I think whatever is coming out of you the most raw is the way you undermine um the supremacy. It is in the feeling. It is in the body. It is in the feminine.

[00:26:56]It is in the queer. It is in the soft.

[00:26:58]It is in the things that that white supremacy uh cannot stand.

[00:27:04]>> Right? That is where God is going to be found.

[00:27:07]>> And so if y'all want to teach us about God, you have to go to places that feel really scary to go. And it usually has to do with your shadow and your ego. M >> and I if you aren't willing to go and grapple in that place, go to therapy, have somebody tell you about yourself, have friends in your life that are like, "Bro, you moving in the thing again."

[00:27:28]Like, you know, it's like because at the end of the day, the judgments and the failure, like the the fear of being wrong, uh the fear of being whatever only matters if it matters. My friend Charles was telling me about something he read in the comment section about um how somebody who is not in the medical profession is not bound by HIPPA. So I'm going to let that sink in, right? Somebody who is not in the medical profession is not bound by HIPPA.

[00:28:03]>> And what that should teach you about logics is you have to believe it for it to be true. [laughter] >> You have to participate in the logic for it to persist. Okay? So, we can all opt out of white body supremacy, but it means that we have to opt out of competition and transactional relationships and this weird um self-righteousness that like if people make mistakes, they're unforgivable cuz [ __ ] I don't want that karma. I don't want to live in a world where I can't make a mistake. I don't want to live in a world where I'm unforgivable. I'm sorry. I'm human. This is a species conversation. And like I think that we we really the ways that whiteness plays king of the hill shows up in black communities too. It shows up in queer communities too. But it is it is attracted to your insecurity.

[00:28:54]So if you can if you can get in touch with ego and shadow and box that [ __ ] then insecurity then there you're slippery to that stuff. And I'm saying y'all that's the way of mysticism.

[00:29:06]That's what mysticism teaches. We don't need more analysis.

[00:29:10]>> We They >> listen, there's nothing else to say.

[00:29:13]We're going backwards because there's nothing else to say about this.

[00:29:16]>> Right. Right. Like how many more books can we read about about what's happening? We we know like we're all feeling it. We know.

[00:29:21]>> Yeah. Like it's not some distant threat.

[00:29:23]It's here. What are we going to do?

[00:29:24]Yeah. You know I mean I feel like I I should listen back myself to that whole thing. It was so >> so much to soak in.

[00:29:30]>> But you're doing it, friend. I'm watching you do it. I'm watching I'm watching you do it offline, right? I'm watching the choices that you make >> for your own well-being, for your kids' well-being, for your own health. I'm watching the little deaths you're dying and and those to me garner trust more than how many followers you have and whether or not you can pontificate on James Baldwin.

[00:29:51]>> Yeah.

[00:29:52]>> I want to know >> what happens when you feel pain.

[00:29:55]>> How do you navigate pain? How do you how do you learn from navigating and wielding anger? I'm angry as a [ __ ] out here. Like, are y'all serious?

[00:30:06]>> Like, all of these things, we're all healing. And the fact that we expect perfection from people, now I'm on a tangent. The fact that we expect perfection from people is a joke.

[00:30:16]Perfection is a myth. It doesn't exist.

[00:30:20]What you want is integrity.

[00:30:22]>> Yeah.

[00:30:22]>> You want someone that goes, "Oh, damn.

[00:30:24]Yeah, you're right. My bad. Here's what I'm doing to change it."

[00:30:28]>> That is literally all you can hope for.

[00:30:30]If you are looking for perfection, I don't want to live in your mind.

[00:30:35]>> It's impossible to be perfect. I People who believe in perfection are not fun to be around.

[00:30:41]>> Yeah.

[00:30:42]>> They just aren't. [sighs] >> It's so When you talk about competition and whiteness and like that kind of thing, I'm like, "Yep." Like, because I think, look, I'm in the creator space, right? I do this podcast, Tim April show. I make content for a living. Man, that gets in your head. Any content creator will tell you this. doesn't matter how many followers you have, you know, it's like, why is my content not doing as good as so and so's? Why why is so and so clabbing with this person?

[00:31:06]That would be like all these little voices get in your head of like you need to be important. You need to be the one who has these things to say, right? And it does get in your head, right? I mean, for many reasons. And it is interesting because I think at least my progression thus far has been going from oh yeah you know like some racism can exist between like white and black people like you know KKK stuff then it's a little more okay actually there's maybe there's systems of racism here right and then you kind of go deeper actually whiteness is beyond manifesting just [snorts] between black and white bodies. There's like there's like a culture underneath all of us that we all can get sucked into, right? that creates these outcomes of what we're seeing today, right? Where certain people with certain types of bodies and certain sexual orientations or certain, you know, whatever um are are moving through the world a certain way inherently because of just who they are. And the powers that be don't like who they are. So they create these either theologies or, you know, uh Scott Coley um he wrote a great book, Ministers of Propaganda, he calls them legitimizing narratives, right? You create these stories of why exerson or exg group, the immigrant, the DEI hire, the queer person, right, is a problem, is a threat to the status quo. And what's America built on? White supremacy. Like we have to be honest about that, right? Like like that is a core foundational tenant of what we were built on. Uh my my my mom was alive when Jim Crow segregation was still taking place. We are not that far removed from that time. We're not even one full generation removed yet. And I'm not sure about you. I don't want to speak for you. I feel like we've regressed over the past decade. Not progress. I mean, it hasn't say it's not the status quo.

[00:32:51]We're watching even data. We see now that among Republicans, support for same-sex marriage has gone down by 20 percentage points. That's regression.

[00:33:01]That's regression.

[00:33:02]>> And so, you're right.

[00:33:03]>> It's doubling down.

[00:33:04]>> It's doubling down.

[00:33:05]>> It's doubling down. It's a doubling down because of what it means. You see, it's it's they don't want the mirror moment.

[00:33:13]>> So, I'm going to double down and I'm going to scapegoat God who is invisible and eventual.

[00:33:20]>> So, I don't actually have to give an account for why I'm showing up like this. I'm just going to blame an invisible eventual entity >> who is going to make sense of it for you. And so, for now, I'll be treacherous.

[00:33:31]>> Yeah. Yeah, >> for now I'll be racist because it's for the will of God, but we don't know God's ways. It is always a scapegoat. It is always a moving target. It is always a carrot on the stick because it is made up.

[00:33:43]>> And if you you won't see anything if you look in the mirror because whiteness is not an identity. And so what they're avoiding is that confrontation of their own emptiness.

[00:33:55]And so I think you know people who are going oh man like I keep I keep thinking about like we all struggle with like the collabs and like why am I not that's just a natural thing because of the world in which we live. So you you just have to navigate the waves of coming out of the system.

[00:34:11]>> Yeah.

[00:34:11]>> The experience of jealousy is not a reason to give up on the fight against it.

[00:34:16]>> Right.

[00:34:17]>> Right. Like you just ride the freaking wave. Ride the wave and realize who gets to decide what legitimacy is.

[00:34:25]It certainly wasn't anybody with my interest in mind.

[00:34:28]>> So, I don't want to be validated by somebody who can't see my humanity anyway. I have to see it myself. Which is what I think again to that point, which is what the black community did in this place. They are a witness. If there was ever a Christianity to be witnessed, it came from that witness.

[00:34:45]>> And like because you're looking at a system, you're looking at a world that is saying you are not human. You are savage beasts. You are property and you are mules.

[00:34:57]And somehow those people found a way to make pie and songs and dances and children >> and like >> it is a massive [ __ ] you to the logics from day one. Which is why there is a constant that's why there is so much obsession with what black people are doing and why we can't be left alone because because otherwise there is no reason for whiteness >> unless it is black put downness that is what whiteness exists on.

[00:35:29]>> So what we're saying is like if you can realize that this is all made up and we all opt out of whiteness. We have to all opt out of this social construction called race. But we first have to tell the truth about how we've been complicit in it, how we benefited from it, >> and how it lives in ourselves. This stuff is and you know like a lot of my work now is like y'all we we we have to start talking about the body the psyche shame because where we are now we are dealing with the ways and this is Tzma's point like of it's in your body white supremacy lives in your body I think there are people right now who want to be loving but when a certain type of person walks into a space their whole body clinch Right? And they don't understand that subconscious response. And so they have a choice in that moment. Blame the body and go, "It's because the body is bad.

[00:36:31]That body is out of place. That body is not right. That body is out of the will of God. That's the reason for my feelings."

[00:36:39]>> Or they could go, "That's interesting.

[00:36:41]Where is that coming from?"

[00:36:44]And all people need is to start to examine their how they feel around people of color and begin to do the work of undermining white body supremacy in your neuro. You have to like if your brain constantly makes the same conclusion, your brain is always going to seek the path of least resistance. So it's going to take shortcuts. If you don't give it something new to fill the blank in with, it will fill the blank in with Fox News. You've got to move.

[00:37:12]You've got to do something different.

[00:37:15]Reading books is great, but if you're not reading them in community with people or going to embody learning, it's just only going to sit up here. What whiteness does is it said that this the mind, the brain, the intelligence is the most important thing. It's next to God.

[00:37:32]This is where we get AI from, right?

[00:37:34]Because AI is the closest thing to omniscience. Okay? White people really think that that's how God uses power, >> hoarding it, having all the knowledge.

[00:37:45]That's nowhere in the text. It just says God has more knowledge.

[00:37:51]>> It doesn't say all. God's not capitalist. It like y'all have projected whiteness onto God's attributes and then you've we know that you've done it because look what you've built. Yeah.

[00:38:02]>> Look what you're doing to the planet.

[00:38:03]>> Right. No, for real. I it is like the way that we are on this I mean we we don't talk about it enough but yes the way that capitalism and like the western world so to speak is just pillaging the planet for everything it's got in this for the sake of capital and profit it really is like unprecedented how fast we're eroding those things you know >> now we're back to Mark we're back to the was it Matthew Taylor he said >> uh yeah Matthew Taylor's book yeah define tyrants >> we're back to Mark right because back the king Jesus is saying get off the ride >> right your p like there is an appetite driving this. Yes.

[00:38:39]>> Examine that appetite.

[00:38:41]>> There is an appetite driving whiteness.

[00:38:43]And they never examined it.

[00:38:45]>> Why are y'all doing this? Y'all don't have enough money, >> right?

[00:38:49]>> These trillionaires.

[00:38:50]>> I know.

[00:38:51]>> What What is driving this? And Jesus is like, I mean, if I was you, I would consider the liies, [laughter] >> right?

[00:38:59]>> Like because something's driving this.

[00:39:01]And it is what you have made up. In the same way that it's a logic that's made up race, that's made up gender.

[00:39:08]>> Yeah.

[00:39:10]>> Capitalism is a logic. All of these things are ideologies that you do not have to buy into just because everyone else is. And the only way to shift it is to shift it, >> right?

[00:39:20]>> You have to start doing something else.

[00:39:22]I think that's the big challenge is that you know um on as individuals in as individuals we can start doing that but we're still sucked up in a larger system of bills and mortgages and families and healthcare and trying to put clothes on our kids' back and trying you know like and all these things right so we it's like it's a really weird uh feeling of like I I don't like this system I hate this system I want to be a part of the change also if I don't do certain things my children will not eat and that's not fair to them so I have to do the I have to do some of these things you And it's it's I I don't know what that, >> you know, and I'm Look, society has >> I'm testing it, buddy. I don't know. I gotta tell you, Tim, I'm trying some stuff, man. I gotta be honest with you.

[00:40:02]I'm I'm living in magic. And this is not something I've said publicly, actually.

[00:40:06]Oh, >> I'm testing some of this.

[00:40:09]>> Like, I want to find out what happens when you really believe Jesus.

[00:40:17]And Jesus said, "You will have what you need when you need it. And I realized that most of my worry comes from how I'm thinking about what I don't have in the future when I don't need it right now when I'm thinking about it. So, I've tried to lean into like that trust. And I man, I I've had checks come out of nowhere. And again, I'm not trying to be woo woo. And I might even be apologizing for that because of whiteness, >> but like I'm telling you that the sciences are even starting to corroborate what happens when you actually believe. And it's funny because I've been checking this in the gospels. I find so much science in the gospels now that I'm going back to it as opposed.

[00:41:03]What you find in Jesus is always like it's your the faith is the operative thing. And what we know about neuroscience, what we know about all of these things in the sciences, he was trying to teach us how to do this. He's like, I mean, there are stories about him, and we don't have to believe them.

[00:41:17]They may not have ever happened, but they're very evocative stories about him telling Peter to go get money out of a fish, >> and it's like, why would y'all put this in the Gospels? And and I feel like we I don't think we really believe Jesus, and I don't think we're honest about that. M >> um >> and I want to be honest about it. So I have been trying not always I mean I have work I work right like so I'm not calling for that but I am saying I don't want to assume >> that not trying it that way >> is going to work because we are seeing these logics crumble. It's not so much that that like we talked a little bit about those two sides of the two ways that Christians showing up. The pro the problem is that it's like Jesus is saying that if if if a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand.

[00:42:08]We're fighting something that's going to destroy itself, >> right?

[00:42:13]>> So why not build? And then okay, so what do we build with if we don't want to reinscribe that way of being? We got to try.

[00:42:22]>> Gotcha. What does mutuality look like? I mean you that's the part like do we trust or not? And I know I sound real like I sound real naming and claim it right now. I'm not necessarily there.

[00:42:33]I'm not like popping up stacks, you know, in the middle of the shower [laughter] or anything like that. But I am saying I'm experiencing a love.

[00:42:39]>> Did you imagine though?

[00:42:41]>> No, I do. I'm experiencing wealth in a way that I haven't.

[00:42:44]>> Yeah.

[00:42:46]>> My friends are freaking beautiful. I feel wealthy.

[00:42:49]>> My kids laugh in the morning. I feel wealthy.

[00:42:52]>> Yeah.

[00:42:53]>> I don't need the new phone, buddy. I need my daughter to tell me about school.

[00:42:58]>> Yeah.

[00:42:58]>> You know, like >> Yeah, makes sense.

[00:43:01]>> No, I it's Look, it's this is this is why I love talking to you because people can listen to this over and over. No, I love it because it's it's >> it's not provocative just for the sake of being provocative. It's really things of like like Okay, I I I'll give one comment then we I know I know that we have to wrap because you have to go and so do I.

[00:43:20]But final comment here is like you made the comment of how like, you know, worry, you know, for some of us financially is about like the future, but like our needs are met today. And I'm like, man, if that ain't me, if that ain't me to a tea, like my needs every day, thank God, have been met, you know, but I'm always worried about about the what if? What if the what if what if the monetization stops? What if I can't get the money we need in, you know, ne whatever it is. But every day it it works, you know, and and I'm not, like you said, everyone's situation is different. We all have different things that we're working through. So, this isn't like a blanket statement, but I think for a lot of us at least listening, we can look and go, okay, today's needs were met. Like, today's needs weren't met. I'm still going. And it's hard to turn the for me, especially being more a futurist, it's hard to turn off that futuristic part of like, well, the what if? Well, what happens if this falls apart? What if this doesn't work anymore, you know? So, >> anyway, I I don't know. You always give me so much to think about and so much to process. And I I already can't wait till we talk on our next phone call about this stuff offline. It's so good. Yeah, we got to talk about this offline blind, buddy.

[00:44:19]>> No, we have to maybe have you come back later on in the year to really go a [clears throat] little bit deeper. So, I know, like I said, that both of us have to go. But if folks do want to follow your work, where can they find you and follow you? Are you online?

[00:44:31]>> Yeah, I mean, I'm on Instagram, blackmmystic, and then um you can go to blackmodderernic.com.

[00:44:37]That's where the podcast lives. And I'm starting a digital community in the fall called The Clearing.

[00:44:43]>> What's it called?

[00:44:43]>> So, you can follow. It's called The Clearing.

[00:44:45]>> The Clearing. Um, and it's going to be a online, it's an online sanctuary carved out for spiritual fugitives inspired by the Hush Harbor.

[00:44:53]>> Um, and so we're having our like first team meeting um, in August and then we'll launch in the fall in in September and it'll be an online but it'll be practice forward because I mean again most of the people helping me curate it are embodied practitioners. So we'll be doing like meditation and yoga and stuff like that. So >> awesome. Well my friend, always good seeing and talking to you. I appreciate you making time. and we'll do it again soon.

[00:45:17]>> You too, friend. Love you.

[00:45:18]>> Love you.