After the Caliphate: What Muslim History Teaches About Renewal | Dr. Sohaira Siddiqui

[00:00:00]Can the Sharia come to an end? Of course, 50  years later, you have the Ottoman Empire as well. Muslims do not wait for [music] political  restoration, but rather they build institutions.

[00:00:10]Colonialism was a deeper [music] form of tragedy  for the Muslim woman. Dr. Sahra Sadiki is an associate professor of Islamic studies at  Georgetown University in Qatar, [music] an executive director of the Al- Madilla Center  and Mosque for women in Doha. She's a leading scholar of classical Islamic [music] law and  political fault. Now when the abbased caliphate collapse [music] famously at this point really  start taking off which is the hospital system and I think the mosque is the old institution that we  have to revive. Gaza has become a a a catalyst for we are here in this amazing space  of al-madilla here in DHA with its executive director Dr. Sahara Sadiki asalam  allayikum and welcome to the thinking muslim.

[00:01:00]It's lovely to have you with us Dr. Sahara. Now  today we're going to be talking about a number of themes in particular decline and how Muslims in  the past and present navigate decline. And um I had a discussion with you prior to to this show  and we had a really uh interesting conversation about how Muslims during those periods where  we had we could we could argue these are bleak times or bleak periods uh Muslims found uh a great  resource within themselves to to recover from uh from from their dire situations. And that's really  what we're going to focus on today. Now I want to start with uh an imam, a scholar of Islamic  history who I know you speak a lot about and you uh you've included in your research, I imam  Joani. I imam Joani wrote in 11th century about the possibility of the collapse of the Abbasid  caliphate. Uh and now he wrote at a time when that prospect did not seem particularly real. Um can  you just tell us about why I imam Joani decided to uh to entertain this for experiment? What was he  trying to achieve and what did he conclude about Muslims if the political center of the ummah  fell? Yeah, it's a it's a large question but a good question to start with because I think this  this idea of crisis and decline um has been on all of our minds for a very long time at this point.  And one of the reasons I got so interested in Juwani is as a graduate student I've just found  it utterly fascinating that a scholar in the 11th century is thinking about these questions.  And what made it more remarkable is that oftent times when we think about the Abbassad period we  of course describe it as the golden age of Islam.

[00:02:43]Right? Starting in the 8th century going up to  the 13th 14th century we see this as the height of creativity and intellectualism and political  strength. So why in the middle of that is this scholar writing about this question of decline? Um  one of the things that I think is really important and kind of Joani specific political moment  is he's born in 1028 in Nishapur. Um shortly after that um you know the Seljuks take over  and Nishapur and the Seljuks are known to be a very very strong dynastic power. But what the  takeover of the Seljuks reveal is that very early in Albased history power wasn't held centrally.  Right. So you have the Abbasad Kiff and of course Baghdad. Um but you have the Aabids that are  taking over in 800. You have the Salmonids. Um you have the Bouyads, you have the Seljuks. You have  all of these different dynastic families um and dynastic powers that are taking control in what we  would maybe call the provinces or the periphery.

[00:03:41]And so you have this very delicate balance or  this bifurcation of power between a legitimate Khalifa who's who's the Abbassid Khalifa but  then also these legitimate families that are ruling and I think for Janei while he accepts this  bifurcation um and in many ways he benefits from this bifurcation he's patroned by the Seljuks he  starts to think about what happens when we start making too many concessions and so his main  political treaties which is called um savior of the nations um in it's famously dedicated to  nisam who was of course a seljuk at the time and he starts thinking about okay if you don't have  the ideal qualifications of the khalifa the first one-third of the book is these this is the ideal  and this is who we want the second third of the book is then devoted to what happens if we find an  individual who doesn't meet these qualifications and then that ushers in a period of what he calls  kind of non ideal political rule and he sees his own moment as that moment because despite the fact  that the Seljuks have power and are creating a great amount of stability in their institution  building in their patroning different you know um massagid and different uh institutions he  still sees that situation as not ideal because the abbased kaleiff at this time is weak and so  what ends up happening is in the last third of his book he then starts thinking about um this  idea of no kiff altogether and that's where it gets very interesting what happens to community  and society when there [clears throat] is no khalifa and so in many ways you know we might  see his political treaties as something very very unique and it is but in other ways I find it  to be um almost a reflection of his own kind of um approach to to power which is power can  be bifurcated but that bifurcation of power um can eventually lead to potentially problematic  outcomes. Right. Okay. And so what did he conclude in in the latter part of his book where he  concludes that there's a possibility that you could have a situation where the um has no kaleiff  at all. What sort of conclusions does he does he come to and what does he say but um should do  at such a time. So this is where the book gets really interesting. So in the last third he says  okay suppose that you don't find anybody that is minimally competent. So um you have all of these  qualifications. They should be aesh. They should be ahead. They should be, you know, all of these  different um qualifications. And he says, "Okay, let's say we don't have anybody. We should at  least get somebody that's minimally competent that knows how to create stability." And if we  don't have that, then he says there's no Khalifa.

[00:06:25]What ends up happening is you have the rise of  communities around local power, which he says will center on the mutahs. M so he transfers power to  the so it's the and the specifically that he says will take over power then he says what if these  mjahids pass away right because they also have this idea that the mjids of course can can go away  and you don't have these legal scholars then he says it will go to just the regular scholars the  right the person who can or the mut is the person who can still give a fatwa and then he says what  if these individuals go away and he says then it will go to the people who have the Quran memorized  and the hadith memorized. And then he says, "What if these people go away?" And then he says,  "Well, you still have the Quran and hadith." And then he says, "What if people stop memorizing  the Quran?" And they stop memorizing hadith.

[00:07:14]What happens then? And he has, you know, at the  end of the book, basically where he leaves off is you have the loss of the caliphate and then you  also have the loss of the Sharia. So he comes to this point where he says once the last individual  stops practicing the sharia they stop knowing how to pray and they stop knowing how to fast then  you also have the loss of the sharia. But what maintains some sense of community in between then  are these individuals recognized by the community as um as being legal scholars as being as being  religious scholars and they kind of give the community some sense of stability in between.  Now, before we move forward with the episode, I need to speak to you directly for a moment. Over  the past while, a lot of you have been telling me the same thing. You're subscribed. You've got  the notifications on, but our weekly program just isn't showing up in your feed. You're not  imagining it. We've seen the numbers on our end, too. Here's the reality. Because of the  subjects we cover, the issues that matter to us, the issues that matter to you, we believe we've  been shadowbanned. The platform isn't banning us outright. It's just quietly making sure fewer  of you see what we put out. No explanation, no notification, just less reach. We're not  going to give up what we cover. That's not up for negotiation, but it does mean we need your help to  make this content actually reach the people. So, here's what I'm asking you to do, and it would  take you 2 minutes to do this. Number one, if you haven't already, hit subscribe. And just  as importantly, tap the bell icon. Notifications are the one thing the algorithm cannot fully bury.  Number two, join our WhatsApp group and Telegram channels. Links are in the show notes below. This  way, when a new episode drops, you hear it from us directly, not from an algorithm deciding whether  you deserve to know what comes out. Number three, sign up to my Substack newsletter. Same  reason. There is a list we own, not one a platform can quietly throttle. And lastly, and  maybe most importantly, if something you we put out resonates with you, forward it. Send it to a  group chat, send it to a friend, send it to your family. We're going to start putting out readymade  WhatsApp messages. You can just copy and forward.

[00:09:37]Uh we'll make it as easy as possible for you.  So, none of this is about vanity metrics. It's about making sure that when a platform decides  these conversations are less convenient for them, that decision doesn't get to be the final word.  Remember, we come out with a regular episode every Friday at 6:00 p.m. UK time. Make sure you're the  ones who actually see it. Was I imi an outlier at his time? Like were there other scholars working  on similar thought experiments? I suppose uh looking at you know what happens when the Muslim  Ummah reaches a bleak period as as Joani seems to be describing you know I've I've contended with  this question of like you know is he an outlier is he not an outlier and in some ways I would  say the that specific text is an outlier that you don't really have scholars in the 11th century  um writing about kind of the loss of the Khalifa um on the other hand he isn't an outlier  because you have a big theological debate um that starts in the 9th century and continues  on in Joani situated in that debate about the loss of the Sharia. Can the Sharia come to an end? And  so Joani ties it to this political question which I think is unique and then talks about the loss  of the Khalifa. Um but very early on I remember um you know this concept uh facad zaman which  is kind of the decline of the times the moral degradation the communal degradation and we see  this being used as early as the time of of so um there was this interesting kind of legal  principle or legal ruling around stray camels during the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi  wasallam so the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam used to say if there's a stray camel let it And  eventually an owner will come and claim it even though camels are very expensive but it's like  leaving unguarded wealth but he's saying you know leave the wealth unguarded leave the camels  unguarded the rightful owner will claim it and by the time of man he says we need to change this  legal ruling because of facadan the times have declined and now if you just leave this unguarded  wealth then somebody will take it and so in that sense you know jwani also follows a tradition of  individuals that are saying things are getting worse after the passing of the prophet sallallahu  alaihi wasallam. Um political power is weakening and uh what he does is tried to think about well  what do we do in that absence? Um I know we we we are here to talk about uh your the view you have  about regeneration regenerative sort of times when when we have these sort of when we have these uh  periods of crisis but I want to come back to Imam Dwani for a second because of course you know he's  he's living in an era where you've got the Seljuks and you've got this bifificcation of power as you  said between the Abbasids who are the rightful center of the Muslim um the leaders of the Muslim  um and then you've about these families uh that are buying for position. Um did Imam Joani uh in  his in his tract in his writings did he talk about how potentially you know one can reform uh the the  caliphate as it stands such that you know you're you're dealing with uh lessening this bifocation  you're you're bringing power back to the center like was the status quo for him an acceptable  status quo or did he see that to be problematic from a Sharia perspective you know he did not see  it as problematic from a Sharia perspective So I think what's very unique about Islamic political  thought is that it didn't ever posit kind of a single model of how power can be held. Um and  often times when we think about power in in the modern day we think about it as centrally held  and even during the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam it was centrally held. Um but I  would say the reason it was so easy for it to be centrally held during the time of the prophet  sallallahu alaihi wasallam is twofold. one, he was the prophet and and and so it made it very  easy for everybody to to see him as of course the legitimate ruler of the Muslim community. Yeah.  But also because it was a city model, he was the ruler of Medina and initially and then as the  empire you the Muslim empire started to expand, you already see in the prophet sallallahu alaihi  wasallam and as an example that he's starting to give power to the companions who he's sending out.  So in the ca famous case of Madb who goes to Yemen he says toad how will you rule and says I'll rule  on the basis of the Quran and the sunnah and he says and if you don't find the answer in that  and then he said I'll rule based on the basis of my opinion and I think what's interesting in  the case of Morad is that he's saying both he's using the word rule right he's not saying you  know how you administer things saying how will you rule and then he's saying to Morad that yes  you can rule on the basis of your judgment And then he famously becomes of course a governor  and a judge and all of these different things.

[00:14:35]So I think in the model of even how the prophet  sallallahu alaihi wasallam sent his companions out. He empowered them with a certain degree of  power when they went to these various areas. They weren't necessarily writing back every single  day and saying I need an answer on this. Should I set up this? Should I do this? And I think that  model then trickles down into Muslim civilization and and these various khalifas that come. And then  there's also the practical challenge of if if you look at the Abbassad Empire ranging from Morocco  all the way to Central Asia and the middle of that is Baghdad. How do you meaningfully rule this area  before you have massive interconnectivity and you know you're sending a letter and it takes weeks  and sometimes months to arrive at a location.

[00:15:19]So in some sense the the the model of the prophet  sallallahu alaihi wasallam's rule and the the sheer challenge of governing such wide vast  land under the Islamic empire forced um I think kaiffs to contend with the fact that you simply  have to give rule to other individuals um and these dynastic families to the extent that they  recognize you as legitimate um and there is some I would say agreement in terms of uh you know ruling  principles and institutions then I think it was a it was a it was a practical um balance of power  and so it's a very different conception to what we think of today of power but it worked for most of  Islamic history right now you've written about the regenerative thinking that emerged during these  periods of collapse um uh just walk us through uh the the sort of type of regenerative thinking  that's required and that uh in history uh how did Muslims uh view these bleak periods of crisis  that they faced? Yeah. Um you know if [clears throat] we if we put ourselves in kind of the the  end of the Abbasid Empire, you have of course the the the Sak of Baghdad by the Mongols. This is  you know famously you know they describe you even like the rivers and how they were bloodied and  burned with with books of the libraries. This is some two centuries after Joani right? Yeah. This  is 1250. Yeah. And Joani dies in 1085. So we're we're talking about like 150 years basically after  um and the the bifurcated notion of power actually functioned I would say in a in a very maybe  positive is too strong a word but it it really allowed for there to be crisis in one point where  regeneration is happening in another point. So a great example would be the Mlukan right by 1260.  So just 10 years after the Abbasids have lost Baghdad and they've lost the empire, the Mamluks  beat the Mongols in the battle in Jalut in 1260 and you have at that point after that a real focus  of the Mamluke Empire on administrative building.

[00:17:29]So they see what's happening, they've seen what's  happened and they understand that maybe what we we we haven't been able to stop the Mongols and  the onslaught that happened there. The Mongols are now ruling there. But what we can do now in  the territories that are under our control is create institutions and create systems. So court  systems are created, postal systems are created, um uh the bimistons famously at this point really  start taking off which is the hospital system. Um and you see the same thing happening in the Delhi  Sultanate. So the Delhi Sultanate is founded in 1206 slightly before the the fall of the  Abbassids. But similarly when the Abbassids fall then there's a sense that now the Deli Sultanate  has to really take on more administrative regeneration. So they established the full Lewan  system they establish um even uh they introduced copper coins at this point. It didn't work  successfully but they introduced copper and silver coins at this point. Um they introduced a system  of taxation um the water irrigation system. And so in many ways what happens is a crisis in one point  in one location in the Muslim community actually results in regeneration in other places because  there's a recognition that there is a weak spot that's now emerged but in order for us to actually  address this we might not be able to go there and do regeneration there. But what we have to do is  we have to take more ownership of the areas that we have. Um and of course 50 years later you have  the Ottoman Empire as well. So, Muslim communities I would say historically and when we when we  read kind of the rise and the falls of these families and these dynasties and these khalifas  is that they rebounded very very quickly. The Nasar dynasty in Granada is another great example  which is again happening um 1238 I believe which is just again 15 years before the Abbassid but  then continuing after. So for many they could have kind of seen the death blow of uh the Abbasid  Empire and what's happening in Baghdad as a moment in which well things are done but actually the all  of the other areas enter into a period of great um great growth [snorts] and and so what lessons  are we learning from that period of of weakness in in Islamic history? I mean in a sense we can  we can try to draw an analogy with our situation today. I mean the Ottoman caliphate let's say but  political core collapsed in the 1920s in the early 20th century. I mean have you do you feel that  the Muslim ummah is likewise thinking in in this sort of regenerative way uh as they did back in in  the 13th century. I mean in some parts I think yes there is there there are attempts at regeneration  happening today as well. Um, and I think the the most important kind of lesson from history is you  don't want to wallow in that in that despair and in that in the decline or in the destruction for  too long because if you do then um then you're not going to be able to enter into that kind of  process of building and growth and regeneration.

[00:20:23]Um, and sometimes the you know the you famously we  see of course and we can talk about the colonial period is like that period of decline I think was  particularly challenging and kind of um what it did to Muslim society. So you don't have the same  type of regeneration I think you had for example after the fall of the Abbasses that you do after  the the the removal of colonial powers. And it's an interesting comparison but what I see in at  least in history is that these moments in which loss happens very quickly after communities,  institutions, political powers reather and try to think well how do we move forward? I mean so  historically who would step in to to rebuild to build these institutions? Would it be I don't  know scholars or would would scholars lead the the the journey? Would it be military people?  Would it be I don't know merchants? Like who would step in to to fill the vacuum left by  the political cause collapse? I mean really all of the above. So, you know, again, the way  to think about power in Islamic civilization, especially when you're talking about politics and  society, is because there was an acceptance that power isn't always going to be held at the core,  that it's necessarily going to kind of proliferate and permeate into other spaces. You had then  these dynastic families. You had then also very powerful families within cities themselves um  that would famously patron universities, madrasas, hospitals, postal systems. Um and then you had in  these institutions right and these institutions against can range from anything from a madrasa to  a well um you know or a karavanari right that's been that's been set up uh to help travelers and  then you have individuals and you know when we're looking at what all of these these these people  are doing I think it actually stems from like a theological and legal framework which really puts  the community at the center of these societies, not necessarily the individual. Right? So  even when it comes to our legal rulings, right, you have ideas of what are our communal  obligations. You have ideas of right the the the the giving that kind of last beyond you which is  often connected to institutions. Um you you have the idea of the um you have the idea of you know  and zakat and all of these things. So I think the framework um that Muslims were inhabiting was one  of how do we build community at very different levels. So that could be at the individual level,  it could be then at the level of the institution, it could be the rich families who are patrons,  um it could be at the level of these dynastic families and then it's at the level of course  the political core. Um but I think having that framework and having that commitment to the  community and to regeneration and to growth um and the institutional building is probably what  sustained Muslim societies throughout history.

[00:23:28]Every time [music] we encounter people who  are going through difficulty in their life, the real question is not how can we help them  today. The real question is how can we break the cycle [music] of dependence? I'm happy to show you  one of the programs that we are sponsoring here in Betton Mal. It's a women empowerment program. A  vocational training program. So when [music] did this program start? Last month, two weeks ago.  Two weeks ago. Yes. All of the women live around this area. So it's difficult to find like a  suitable place to [music] to close their home.

[00:24:01]So, so I understand this is a month-long program.  It stays for for a whole month. So, we're halfway now. Yeah. In the program inshallah [music] after  two weeks. So, then they And when this is over, you start another group and another group.  Mashallah. This is beautiful. [music] [snorts] [music] There are about [music] 16 women  here. Half come in the morning, half in the evening. It's a month-long program  for sewing [music] so that they become more independent, more self-dependent.  And this is the kind of thing that brings the community together and  [music] strengthens the community.

[00:25:03][music] Please visit btml. us/thinkingmuslim to donate.  Now, that's interesting because there's a pattern um you've identified that Muslims do not wait  for political restoration, but rather they build institutions. And uh it's a Sharia, you  know, from your last answer, it's a Sharia that propels them to to think about uh regenerating  their communities and their ummah. What is it in the Sharia that that pushes Muslims to do  that? because you know one would one one would think that um when the political center declines  or political center collapses uh then you know you're without a leader and you just don't have  that ability to steer your community through the choppy waters that that are to come. So what what  is it that the Sharia does that pushes ordinary Muslims and institution and and and organizations  within the community to build institutions?

[00:26:04]I mean I think we have to you know we almost have  to analyze a little bit what is the Sharia and the purpose of the Sharia and Sharia is not you know  the correct translation of Sharia is not Islamic law um and it's not simply a body of rules that  the individual is just uh enacting in terms of their daily rituals but I think what the Sharia is  fundamentally trying to do is it's trying to set a moral and a communal horizon for believing Muslims  Right? And what I mean by a moral and communal horizon is the moral horizon of the individual.  How do I as an individual want to develop in terms of my relationship with with Allah? And a  communal horizon in terms of how are we creating communities? And um and what do those communities  actually look like? Yeah. And even in the the the the kind of literal meaning of the Sharia, it's  a it's a pathway to a well, right? It's this idea that I am on some type of journey. And so for  Muslim societies, you know, it's like that it's like that moment in which the prophet sallallahu  alaihi wasallam passes away and the community doesn't know what to do and the companions are  kind of fractured is you know are we continuing as a community or we not continuing as a community  and in that moment they chose to continue as a community [snorts] and there is no kind of greater  historical tragedy for a believing Muslim than of course the prophet the passing of the prophet  sallallahu alaihi wasallam and so I think in every single moment then of crisis afterwards. The  same choice is there. Do we stop as a community or do we continue? Yeah. And the Sharia is that  system which tells us you have to continue and this is how you continue. And that's why I think  it was very natural for the to say well we take over power right um because for them they see what  they're fundamentally doing with the is not these individual rulings when someone comes to a muti  and says you know can I is my prayer valid or can I eat this or can I not eat that those are just  the but the moral universe it's trying to create the social universe it's trying to create  this is why the jurists were always talking about right things that are in the public [clears  throat] interest is far kafaya what are communal obligations. So the world that they inhabited was  one that was thinking about the communal and so in these moments of fracture and crisis um and  decline the I think the Sharia end up emerging as a new horizon um that can set the direction of  travel. Now when the abbased caliphate collapsed that was very much a military collapse. there  was a collapse at the core and and of course the different regions within the Muslim um regenerated  and and as you said the Mluks and others uh took it upon themselves to build institutions but  of course colonialism did something a little different I I would suggest um and I think  you're right about this col colonialism was far deeper was far more devastating than military  collapse uh the British for example sought to uh undo the alkavis system across the Muslim world  or the French did the same in you know in North Africa. Um uh there was a cultural onslaught in  very commerce you know against the Muslim um um in in many ways um colonialism was a deeper form of  of tragedy for the Muslim um than maybe previous uh tragedies that we face. I mean would you agree  with that? And and if so um uh does that tell us that the uh that the the solutions are a little  bit more complex than than maybe you know the Mamluks in in the 13th century of which the Manduk  offered in the 13th century. I mean colonialism is um you know I think the the crisis that maybe  we as a Muslim community have not kind of fully unpacked or even understood historically. Um if  if we if we kind of start with how did the Muslim community experience colonialism or how did Muslim  world experience colonialism? Um the Portuguese is kind of the first instance of colonialism in  the Muslim world in 1415 and that kind of marks the beginning and the end is then in the 1980s  with the end of the British protectorate system which of course the British might say that's not  colonialism but of course was a form of extractive colonialism maybe more economic in nature  than than previous but a form of colonialism nonetheless. So 1415 to the 1980s you're talking  about 500 years and in that time period I think what ended up happening and I kind of this is the  way I frame it to many of my students is that it fundamentally disconnected Muslims from a deeper  understanding of their history and it also made them more unsure about their present situation  and unable to imagine futures that were grounded.

[00:31:01]in their realities and their past and I think that  is the most lasting impact of colonialism because if you cannot be connected to your history and you  fundamentally cannot understand what is happening in your current context and make sense of that  then how are you to imagine possible futures and that kind of epistemological violence which  colonialism brought to the Muslim world we have now inherited as individuals ual living in  the postcolonial world and we struggle with the same things. So we struggle with understanding  Islamic history and its relevance for us today. We under we still struggle with our current kind of  political context and sometimes understanding it often times it takes a great crisis for us to go  back and and really try to sort out what's what's happening politically and socially in Muslim  societies. Yeah. And then this question of imagining possible futures is also impacted. And  so, you know, my my study of the colonial period, I look at legal institutions and their  transformation and how it specifically impacted Islamic law. Um, because I think we  we we kind of underestimate um the impact it had on law and continues to have on law. But I  think more broadly the colonial project um was its most violent form and its most pernicious form  and most continuous form is is really kind of the the epistemological way in which it's impacted how  Muslims think um and how they how they imagine how they think and how they imagine. I mean explain  that and and you know explain uh how that impacts us on a daily basis. the way we think, the  way we imagine, you know, our our futures, I think you said, and our past, you know, I'll  I'll give you a personal example. I grew up in a um a South Asian family. And um often times you  would have the the jamaats that would come to uh the masjid where I used to go. And um of course  when you know the jamat comes they they visit various you know homes and they talk to different  people and I remember anytime my father would come home on jamaat and say you know the the jamaat is  here I would feel like my weekend is ruined alas.

[00:33:15]I have to hide in my room somewhere. they're going  to come and they're going to be telling my father he has to have a beard and I have to wear hijab  and and and I had a very negative understanding of the jamaat and I had a very even negative  understanding of South Asian Islam. I felt it to be very rigid and violent and I I would look at  you know the various things that were happening in South Asia and it almost seemed like why can't we  as Muslims just get it together and it was a real sense of the problem is us as Muslims and it was  only by by spending a lot of time kind of studying Islamic history and then focusing on the colonial  period more recently that I even understood what the the blijamat was in terms of a movement of  revival and resistance to effectively colonialism, right? And and postcolonialism and understanding  that many of the things that I see and I witness in South Asia in terms of understandings of law,  Islamic law, um the political structures, the violence and the chaos is is not self-generated.  It is an inheritance of a system that was put in place in many ways to prevent proper development  and and growth. And so I think that's what I mean by how we think, right? So my own kind of  criticism of the Muslim community and the lack of organization of the Muslim community,  all of these different understandings that I had was coming because I fundamentally didn't  understand our history because I wasn't taught our history and I wasn't seen I I wasn't I grew  up in a context in which you see kind of western models of development and modernization as the  best ones and these are the aspirational ones.

[00:34:51]So even when I when I think about and I imagine  the future I'm imagining our Muslim societies developing towards that future that is the goal  that's the tilos for everyone westernization modernization these institutions right um and  that is where I think the limitation comes in because once you already say that that is the goal  right then it limits your imagination if my goal is just to have an Oxford and a Cambridge and a  Harvard and a heel in Pakistan or in India and and whatever society I'm living in then my imagination  is already limited. Can I ask you about uh legal authority scholars? Um um as far as I understand  it in Islamic history even during these periods of crisis uh the legal authorities remained fairly  independent or independent from you know the the Mongols or whoever u were were destroying Muslim  land. Um but colonialism did something a little different. It co-opted in many occasions on many  occasions some of the legal authorities uh within the Muslim ummah even some of the institutes that  that um uh the that uh pervade a Muslim world. Um can you just talk to that like how different was  colonialism in the impact it had on our scholarly class to previous catastrophes that the most  faced? Yeah, I mean the legal institutions are a great example to look at. So if we look at the  case of um British colonization of India of course before that you have the Mughal Empire. The Mughal  Empire is actually quite sophisticated in terms of their legal system. Um so they had courts,  they had kadis, uh they had mutis of course giving independent judgments um and when colonial  power came in one of the things that they did in kind of the late colonial period is um they set up  courts. And when they're setting up these courts, they are saying okay these mul courts we've now  dismantled them. So there's no such thing as the mul courts anymore now we just have the courts  of of the the British and the East India the East India Company first and then the British after  that but why would a Muslim go to this court right why would a Muslim come and why should I take my  issue of divorce or inheritance or contract law to this court so they had to create a legitimacy  and they did that in two ways one is that they took individuals who used to be kadis or muis  and put them in the court as um what they were called native law officers so these to individuals  that could advise the British judges. And then the other thing that they started doing is they  started translating um texts of Hanafik into um English and eventually creating legal codes.  And what they wanted to do is effectively kind of give the veneer of these are functioning as Sharia  courts. And eventually what you have is even the appointment of Muslims in these Sharia courts. And  and I trace um when this happens in the book and and what the how these judges think about Islamic  law and all of these things. But what the British were very smart at doing is recognizing that  if we want to penetrate into these communities, we have to co-opt their institutions, dismantle  them or co-opt them. And they did both. And eventually what you end up having kind of in the  late um colonial period is then a debate arising that the are waging around whether it's even  legitimate for Muslims to go to these courts.

[00:38:07]And so, uh, there were a group of scholars that  said, you know, if you're a Muslim and you go to this court and they give you a divorce, doesn't  mean you're divorced, right? Because your divorce hasn't been given by a and um what these what  these Muslim kind of scholars outside of the courts were effectively saying is we've accepted  the loss of political sovereignty. Yeah. Right.

[00:38:31]The British have taken over at this point, but we  will not reneg on the right of legal sovereignty for the community. And for me, it's that same kind  of Jewanian moment of bifurcated power coming back that the the theat living under colonial rule  are saying, "Okay, we've accepted that you're here. The jihad has failed." And you see this  discourse really picking up post 1857 after the rebellion. Yeah. But when it comes to legal  sovereignty, when it comes to our institutions, then we want to build those ourselves. Um, and so  still you have some of the institutions that were founded in the colonial period, these daz  and stuff still functioning until today in South Asia. And it's still that same attempt to  say, well, the state should not be able to take over our our legal sovereignty. Right. I mean, do  you think that modern Muslims um overestimate the uh importance of state power or the importance  of capturing the state? You know, in in the 20th century, there were a number of projects by  Muslim groups to recapture the caliphate or to re, you know, to to reinstate uh a central authority.  um and and that's done at the expense of building institutions because it seems like your argument  is that during these transitional periods as periods of crisis. The best thing we can do is  build durable and strong independent institutions and maybe that's the precursor to uh to building  political power in the future. Is that how you see it? Yeah, I mean I I definitely take a a  bottomup approach, right? that these these durable institutions are not just um centers of power,  but they're also um spaces of identity formation.

[00:40:13]They're spaces of meaning making. They're spaces  of um community regeneration. And if you think that um you know, establishing a state is all  of a sudden going to then result in all of those things, that's not going to happen, right? And  you need to have a cohesive community, a diverse, right? pluralistic but cohesive community in order  for any state project to be successful. And many of the challenges and fissures that we're we're  witnessing now in you know all over the world is because there is a huge problem of what happens  when societies become hyper pluralistic and you have these big differences in terms of um  uh within society. So if you don't have those institutions where people are gathering  and they see them as meaning making, they see them as sources of stability and power then you're  putting a lot of pressure on the state to fulfill everything for the individual. And I think part of  the problem we see now in modern day societies is the state has a lot of pressure on it because it  has to do everything. The state has to provide the institutions. It has to provide the law. It has to  provide the meaning. It has to provide healthcare.

[00:41:22]it has to provide all of these different things  whereas historically it wasn't the state that was doing that and so I think especially for Muslim  minority communities right Muslim communities living in the west um that we have to get into the  mindset of institution building and um and how do we address the fractures within our own community  because there's no there's no viable kind of state project without that I mean from your study  of earlier periods I what attitudes or habits prevented Muslim societies from falling into  total disrepair? I mean, you know, I do hear that um there were maybe a minority of voices after  the fall of the uh the uh caliphate in Baghdad, but you know, who were who were saying that we now  just have to prepare for punishment or the day of judgment. But that didn't seem to be the case  for the vast majority of Muslims who were doing who were rebuilding and regenerating uh the Muslim  Ummah. So what was it what was the deep reservoir they they they uh referred to uh that allowed them  to to move forward in these periods of despair? I mean it's it's hard to know right because how do  you know what is motiv you're you know in some ways it's how do you know what's motivating  people? How do you know what is is is kind of pushing people forward and is the catalyst that  is driving them? And that's I mean it's a it's a question that a historian will never be able  to answer. But you know one thing I see is that regardless of what moment of crisis a scholar  is writing in. Yeah. They harbor within them a very deep what I call like a theology of optimism.  Right. that the optimism isn't coming from their own human experience necessarily because if they  are looking at their human experience they are seeing the collapse of the caliphate or they're  seeing problems right so their optimism isn't coming from uh their human experience or rational  deduction but it's coming from their theology and what I mean by that is you know if we if we think  about the Quran if we think about the life of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam it's full of  trial and tribulation and even if You look at prophetic stories, right? There's there's a real  emotive way to read prophetic stories like the the you know the story of Ununice can be a story  of alienation. The story of Mus Alisam again is a story of alienation and rejection and um you  know almost a story of a refugee. Um the story of Alud Alisam, Ibraim Alisam. You have all of these  challenges that these prophetic figures are going through yet all of them remain optimistic and  they're all building right and they might not building be building institutions in the ways that  we're thinking of today but there is this sense that despite the challenges they move forward and  I think if we reflect on those and we really kind of embody this theology of optimism then we have  no choice but to to move forward and to think about how do we [clears throat] build institutions  that are resilient and how do we identify kind of that communal moral horizon and move towards it.  So how would uh institution building what would it look like today like where would we start? I  mean I I I speak of course uh today in in this wonderful um space you have aladila here in in  Doha. just talk us through like your experience of of institution building and and how Muslims should  go about uh developing these as you said robust institutions. You know, my my my story of how I  entered up in Mujetta is quite interesting. But, you know, when I reflect back, I would say that  from from my childhood until now, somehow I've always been connected to the Muslim community  through the mosque, right? Um, it's either been, you know, the community center where I go on  the weekend, it's where the Islamic school is, it's where you learn how to read Quran and learn  Arabic when, especially for Muslims living in the West. Um and then you know even coming to a Muslim  country you're looking at you know the massagid right as as as a space that you're coming and kind  of continuously visiting. And for me you know when we talk about institution building there's the  new institutions that we have to create and then there's the old ones that we have to revive and  I think the mosque is the old institution that we have to revive because the masjid if you think  about it has always been functioning. It was the first institution that the prophet sallallahu  alaihi wasallam built even in in Mecca it was the first thing right and then in Medina it was the  first thing and it's always served as kind of the load stone for uh education for regeneration for  even addressing social issues you know famously um you know treaties were signed in the masjid  uh tribes who were waring would come and they would come to you know debate in the masjid um  Eid celebrations and festivals would happen in the masjid um emissaries would be received in  the masjid so it wasn't just a place where you come and you pray and you leave. And I I think  part of the you know actual colonial legacy is to think of the masjid as simply a place of prayer.  Right? So you know that old idea of the the jam the sprawling mosque campus where you have soup  kitchens and libraries and madrasas and you know uh craft gills attached to it is gone. Um but I  don't think that uh needs to be the case. And so for me uh institutional regeneration should be  centered around the masjid and I see mujad as an attempt to do that. And then when I think of the  new institutions we have to find new institutions based on what we identify are the social needs of  the community. So for example, if you look at like the Mamluks and the Muls, they were creating  a postal system and they were creating water irrigation systems and they were creating um uh  new forms of currency because they saw these as the challenges that needed to be addressed. So I  think we as a community you know and it has to be a communal exercise I think have to identify what  are the institutions that we need to now build and then we put our creative and financial power  behind building those new institutions. I think education has to be key in that. I think civic  engagement has to be key in that. I think media and representation has to be key in that. Um and  these are some of the institutions that I think are being built. So can I ask you about Madila  as a as a space? It's a women's only mosque. Is that how you you describe it? Um I mean that  does seem uh a little innovative in in a way because of course mosques historically have been  spaces where men and women come together and and and pray and and engage in in the other instit.  But Mojad is women's is a women's only space.

[00:48:14]U what's the idea behind that? So, Mujadila is a  women's only space. So, uh we're a mazjid and then we also have a lot of other activities in terms  of programming and research which I can get into.

[00:48:25]But the idea behind it is you know we think about  the mosque as an institution and there's millions of massagid around the world. Yeah. But if you  actually start speaking to Muslim women about what their experience is in those massagid, they will  tell you that it's often unwelcoming, that it's not a space that feels like it's actually curated  or built for them. And this starts from the beginning where women are trying to figure out how  do I even get inside, right? And then it's is the door locked. So many times I've been to a masjid  and you know my brother will be able to get in, my father will be able to get in and I'm messaging  them saying, "Well, the woman side is locked. Can you tell the imam to open the woman's side? So um  it starts there and then it's you know the woman's space is often times very very small and there  isn't programming for women. There isn't a focus on women and the mjad was really to try to center  the Muslim woman and to say that if we want to talk about the regeneration of faith and community  then that fundamentally has to center women as well. and is a project that's attempting to center  women and doing so in the masjid because the masjid is the fundamental institution of society.  Have you had any push back from from Muslims who say well why do we need a women's only space and  maybe there are some unfortunately on social media who would who would say a women's only space  that sounds very feminist to me that sounds very western to me like why you know so what is  the um like how would you respond to to those I mean I I know they're they're baseless claims but  how would you respond to those claims you know I usually um we had a lot of these criticisms early  on we have less of them now but I always invite people to actually come and see what it is that we  do because people either react to our name and um you know then we tell of course the story in the  Quran um you know the revelation around yeah tell us a little bit about why why majad um so the name  it can literally translate into the the woman who pleads or discourses um and it comes from surah  mujad in the Quran which was revealed um when the female companion of the prophet sallallahu alaihi  wasallam uh was divorced by her husband using a pre-Islamic form of divorce known as and uh which  me which the the man basically says you are to me like the back of my mother. So she went to the  prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and said is this actually legitimate form of divorce? Yeah.  And the prophet um in the in the in the story and the way it's captured in the in the text is he was  silent and he was waiting for revelation and then the revelation came in the beginning verses of  right so Allah has verily heard the speech of the woman who has come to you um and has heard kind of  the speech between you you and her right between the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and this  woman. And so when we were thinking about um what Mujad is fundamentally trying to do, it's trying  to create a space for women to have conversation and to have dialogue, but to root that dialogue  and conversation around the challenges of our time in religion, which is exactly what Kala did. She  identified a problem and she sought a solution, but she went to the prophet sallallahu alaihi  wasallam for that solution and then he waited for revelation. And it's a very powerful story  even from the perspective of this woman who feels that she can go directly to the prophet sallallahu  alaihi wasallam and her voice can be heard and she can be the reason of revelation. And we had an  interesting paper last year at our conference um in which uh one of the scholars um talked about  all of the different instances of revelation based around questions of women that you know sometimes  we look for the names of women in the Quran and and we feel like oh there's only Assa and  there's Mariam there isn't that many women named explicitly in the Quran but their voices  are present in the revelation through all of these different reasons of of revelation. And so for us  at you know what we're trying to do at Mojadila in terms of creating space um rooting that in  faith um creating a sense of community it felt like Mujadila was the ideal name. I mean why is it  important to have women at the center at the core of institutions beyond women's only spaces you  know our masids in in the west tend to be occupied by you know men I mean most of our institutions  uh community based institutions charities are are dominated by by men and why why is it important  to have women in those spaces as well yeah I mean I think this is a conversation that um you know  so many people are contending with because you know uh they think well the institutions are fine  they're running as there is so why do we need to include women's voices and you know there's the  there's the practical and then I think there's kind of the the religious I think the practical  is that women do bring different ideas to the table their experiences are different um and  having kind of a diversity of voices um around the table is a good thing so if you have you know  10 people on a mosque board and all of them have the same education or the same background the same  language. So diversity always brings about I think more creative and interesting ideas and solutions.  And so our our massag definitely have to diversify not just in terms of gender but in terms of  language, cultural backgrounds. But I think the the the larger and this is kind of where  I say the religious element of it is that our communities can only function if we include the  full community that the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam you know was trying to be as inclusive  to the community as possible and he included the voices of women and the Quran includes the voices  of women. So when we create institutions and then we don't include those voices, for me there's a  religious imperative there to make sure that that that we get the we get the the the maximum number  of voices at the table and we include all of those voices which have historically been left out. And  how do we build uh these robust institutions? I mean, I'm just thinking back to um Britain and and  our institutions in Britain and often they lack uh you know, they they're they're pretty pretty  rigid. They tend to be occupied by people who uh are not running these institutions in an  effective way. They lack, you know, representation from women and young people. a lot of our young  people are now establishing third spaces across the west rather than you know going to the mosque  and and that's a shame in a way because the mosque as you said is at the center at the core of  building good strong communities um how do we uh reinforce these institutions and and and make  them work for the benefit of of our community and um I mean I think the biggest challenge that  you've noted is um that the people are starting to create these third spaces because the mos masks  aren't fulfilling their needs. And I can think of, you know, I lived in the UK and so I can think of  many institutions, especially where the youth are starting to say, we're just going to go open  up our own our own space. Um, I think what it requires is advocacy from within and pressure  from outside, right? So, we need to make sure that there's individuals within the massagid  that are advocating for some type of change.

[00:55:47]And this is perhaps the hardest thing because you  need to in many ways lobby mosque boards and speak to the imam and take the time out to actually have  those difficult conversations because to simply say I'm going to go and create another institution  is not going to address the problem because you're creating an institution parallel but you're  not addressing the problem right and so you're actually creating fractures within the community.  So I think there needs to be lobbying within about how can we actually address the problems that  are happening in the massage and then other institutions and then pressure from without is the  same individuals that are you know have now gone out and created these institutions they should be  coming back and there should be partnerships there should be events together there should be attempts  to say how can we build bridges and it's very easy I remember I grew up in Seattle and there was a  street that had three different masjids and it was this is for the south south Asian community  this is for the Sham community. This is for the Arab community. And they would sometimes  even celebrate Eid on different days. Yeah.

[00:56:46]And [clears throat] um I think we have to change  and actually, you know, have inhabit a different mode of engagement, which is we might have  differences in background and culture and language and all of those things, but we have to find ways  to collaborate. And so more pressure internally, more pressure externally. Um and then I think  oftentimes there's always a resource problem that our massagid do need better resourcing and until  we also solve the resource problem one of the issues of space in women's mosque will always be  well we don't have the money to create the space for women. I mean, if you were speaking directly  to a young Muslim, especially post Gaza, I mean, I feel Gaza has become a a a catalyst for for  regeneration really and and youth thinking within the Muslim um but many young Muslims feel excluded  from community spaces but also feel overwhelmed by the sort of scale of the problem space in this um  how do you u advise them to focus their energies?

[00:57:45]Um, you know, the first thing I always tell kind  of my students who ask me these types of questions is, have you identified a spiritual practice that  truly fills your heart? A spiritual practice.

[00:57:59]Yeah. Because I think often times we we go into  activism mode. We go into what's the institution I have to build? What's the project I have to  take on? What's the protest I have to go to?

[00:58:09]What are what are the things that I need to do?  [clears throat] And we forget that fundamentally, you know, the the the actual conclusion and our  lives in general really hang in the in in in the hands of Allah. And until we we fill that element  of ourselves, that work won't have as much meaning and purpose as we think it will. So I think we  first have to start and this doesn't have to be for example fasting more or praying more or  whatever it is. But I think we as Muslims have to as people of faith have to actually start by  thinking if we want to have a positive impact in the community what is our relationship with Allah  and how can I strengthen it and what am I doing that ensures that that practice is strengthened  first and foremost. So I always give that as the starting advice to to to my students. And then  the second thing I say to them is when it comes to actually identifying what it is that you have  that that you want to do that you really need to think about what's the problem you're trying to  solve and work backwards. So if you're trying to solve the mazjid problem then you really have  to put all of your energy and efforts towards that. M and if you're trying to solve a political  problem then you have to think about what are the efforts and energy you can put towards that and  what you realize is that you know and I work with students often times is even the students that are  trying to solve the political problem what they realize is they can't solve the political problem  without starting with the community and starting really from again what are we building from the  ground from grassroots upwards and so um you know sometimes the biggest problem that we want to  solve actually starts with the smallest of actions We see this with elections. They, you know, the  most successful candidates are the ones that are going doortodoor and connecting with people.  And so for me, it's connect with your community, build institutions that are meaningful in  your community, connect with Allah. And um you know there's that that beautiful hadith of  the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam in which he says if the hour has come still plant the seed,  right? And so um you know we have to plant the seed. And there's another beautiful hadith and I  I remind myself of this one a lot is you know the the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said you  know the the believer who mixes with people and is patient with them is better than the believer  that does not mix with people and is not patient with them. And it's a reminder that working  in the community and building institutions is not easy. Yeah. Um and that in that process  we have to be patient with one another and um the only way to actually create communal  institutions is to recognize that the community is very diverse and it's not going to be kind of  unified in the way that we might think and that's okay and power doesn't have to be held by one  person. They can be held by many people. Yeah.

[01:00:56]Um so I think having the awareness think taking  these lessons from history is really important.

[01:01:01]Um, I spoke to an elderly gentleman uh recently  who said to me that the Muslim is doomed. Like we're we're now at a stage where we can only  really just wait for Allah's punishment because um everything has been tried and and we're just not  going to be able to in your words regenerate this this um once again. I mean there is this mindset  of gloom that that that does exist within some circles of the musma and the idea that we're now  in perpetual decline and we just have to wait for Allahh's judgment on on the matter. I mean what  if anything gives you hope uh with our situation today? I mean I don't think I think I think we  like to look at the world in binaries too much right. So we're either in a moment of decline or  we're in a moment of regeneration. M um you know we're in a moment of rupture or we're in a moment  of continuity and these dichotoies and these binaries are are really helpful if we're trying  to make you know quick judgments about what's happening in our moment but they're not very  useful right so even colonialism when people say is it is it continuity right is there historical  continuity or is it just all rupture um and the Muslim community can't kind of salvage itself  after this uh incredible rupture and anytime you dig into these moments, you realize that both  of these things always exist simultaneously, right? So decline always exists alongside rupture  and and um uh regeneration. And I always go back for me what gives me hope is I always go back and  I think as a Muslim there can be nothing sadder, more tragic than the passing of the prophet  sallallahu alaihi wasallam. And in that moment it was the same thing. Is this a rupture? Is this  the kalas, the moment of decline? We've lost our connection to Allah and therefore this community  cannot continue. Or is this a moment of continuity and regeneration where we find a way to kind of  pull ourselves out by our bootstraps and continue?

[01:03:01]And for me, the the choice of the companions  was very clear and the choice of every community after that was very clear. And so we have to be  comfortable with the fact that we are living in a moment in which both decline and regeneration  are happening at the same time. And as individuals we have to be mindful of what is causing the  decline, who is causing the decline, how do we push against the decline. But we also have to be  very mindful then of what are our possibilities of regeneration and how are we participating in  that? And that is, you know, the the, you know, they say the the believer is always between fear  and hope. And I think this is a perfect moment for that. Fantastic. Well, before we close, can  I ask you about another project that you've been working on uh which is a podcast called More  Muslim? Um I mean tell us a little bit about that and uh what you hope to achieve from it. Yeah. So  speaking of institution building, you know, More Muslim was our attempt to um create a podcast that  centers um the voices of Muslim women um and the Muslim experience more broadly um in a way that we  feel right now is not being done. So often times um you know the podcasts that are being done about  Muslims are focusing on narratives of this is what a good Muslim is and this is what a bad Muslim  is. but capturing the the daily experiences of how people are living faith and the challenges  of of living with faith uh is not really being captured. And so what we decided is to create  a podcast that's more in kind of an audio documentary style. So we take a historical issue  or a contemporary issue um or kind of a forgotten experience that a Muslim woman has um or a Muslim  in general has and then do a lot of research and conversation around it and then design um these  audio documentaries basically um about 30 to 45 minutes. And our hope is to shed light on um lived  faith and um lived challenges and also at the same time create a space for Muslims to feel like they  can tell their own stories and that their faith doesn't have to be seen as only through this lens  as I said of good and bad or a pious believer or non-pest believer, a bad Muslim or a good Muslim.  And so that's why we kind of playfully titled um the podcast more Muslim, right? that we're all  kind of striving in some ways to be more Muslim and our experiences reflect that. Well, may Allah  give you baraka to your project and to this mah very uh stunning and amazing center you have here  in in Dha and uh thank you so much for your time today Dr. It's a pleasure. Asalam alaikum. Now,  you've reached the end of this show, and the fact that you've stayed until the very end tells  me that you truly believe in our work. Please consider making a one-off donation or becoming a  member by visiting thinkingmusim.com/membership.

[01:06:00]Now, your contributions give you  exclusive behind-the-scenes access and the ability to ask questions to our  guests and monthly calls with myself, my team and our guests like Sami  Hamdi and keep us in your duas.