Cocky MAGA Bro FOLDS Instantly During Debate

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[00:00:00]Why do you support Trump?

[00:00:01]>> Yeah. So, he's attacking the transgender nonsense. And I just think we need >> And what do you mean by that?

[00:00:07]>> Like the idea that we should give gender reassignment surgeries to minors. And >> Nope. Never. Never. Something that Democrats supported.

[00:00:17]>> Wait, what?

[00:00:18]>> Can you name one Dem Can you name one Democrat in Congress that supports gender reassignment surgery for children?

[00:00:25]>> They Well, they support the drugs.

[00:00:28]>> Wait, big distinction. So, can you can you provide can Yeah. Can you provide one single person in Congress that supports the view that gender reassignment surgery should be given to minors?

[00:00:39]>> Maybe AOC, right?

[00:00:41]>> Nope. AOC does not >> surgery.

[00:00:43]>> Not the surgery, but the drugs like medically transitioning.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah, that's that's like when they're like uh 15 16 years old. Uh the same time I was able to get access to Accutane through my parents and my doctor. So, do you think I should have been able to get access to Accutane when I was 16? That's not even close to as uh harmful as like the drugs for gender assignment surgeries.

[00:01:06]>> Um wait, you say that it's not even as close to as harmful. How do you provide the distinction?

[00:01:11]>> Yeah, because uh what were your side effects from?

[00:01:15]>> There were countless side effects. I'm not going to go through all of them.

[00:01:17]Many of them were were during. But by the way, there are countless side effects that can happen long term as well. And what you're not considering is that there are most people specifically that use hormones, right? they have positive impacts, very positive impacts.

[00:01:30]>> So, long-term side effects for accus um they don't that's not typical at all >> and >> it's not typical for you to have these types of negative impacts from uh hormone replacement therapy as well.

[00:01:44]>> Yes, it is because it blocks puberty and >> no you're flipping back and forth between hormones and puberty blockers.

[00:01:50]Puberty blockers definitely are very positively impactful. There are individuals that will use it who are cis. Right. Right. And especially for precocious puberty.

[00:02:01]>> Okay. But >> the the hormone replacement therapy that causes puberty >> if you don't need it. If you're using medication that you don't need solely to like battle gender dysphoria, I don't think that's >> Wait, this is determined by the doctor and their parents, right? And the kid.

[00:02:16]Not not by you. If if you've seen in the UK, they're banning this because there are so many side effects and it is >> they're not banning puberty blockers in the UK.

[00:02:26]>> They I'm pretty sure they're banning like gender affirming care in the UK for minors.

[00:02:30]>> Uh so they banned puberty blockers.

[00:02:31]Really? What's your evidence?

[00:02:34]>> Yeah. Uh I just I literally like I think I was researching this.

[00:02:38]>> Go ahead. Provide me the source.

[00:02:40]>> Okay. Can I look it up?

[00:02:42]>> Yeah.

[00:02:48]And even so, again, let's say for example, which this is not true, let's say the UK did do this, that does not justify us then doing it as well, just because the UK did it. That would actually be bad if that happened in the UK, but it didn't. And I know that he's just bullshitting. So, that's why I asked him for the source.

[00:03:08]>> Yeah. So, gov.uk UK says a ban on puberty locker puberty blockers for individuals under 18 is indefinite meaning >> okay what's the title >> uh I just said a ban on puberty blockers for like under 18 let's see let's Um, okay. So, they're just to treat gender dysphoria, not overall.

[00:03:50]>> So, they explicitly So, they didn't So, by the way, let's just be clear, the UK didn't ban it to uh to uh for any other children. It just banned it for people who are being treated for gender dysphoria.

[00:04:04]>> Yeah. Because the people with gender dysphoria >> Wait, so to clarify to Wait, so to clarify real quick, do you agree that it is acceptable to give to children in some circumstances deemed by doctors?

[00:04:15]>> If they physically need it, yeah.

[00:04:16]>> Okay.

[00:04:17]>> So if if deemed by doctors that because that's going to determine who needs it, right? Then they should be able to get it. Well, then in the context of the United States, if determined by doctors, why should they be able to get it because of gender dysphoria?

[00:04:29]Oh, because uh gender dysphoria uh is not a physical necessity. Like they don't physically need to be treated for that. That's that's more of an option for helping their mental health.

[00:04:41]It's it's like you don't need to take uh depression medication if you're on depression, right? So, we probably shouldn't be giving that to kids.

[00:04:51]You said we probably shouldn't be giving that to kids. I disagree. I think that doctors should be the ones determining this. It's not determined by some random idiot on the internet called Henry who doesn't actually understand anything about science or anything about the impacts in terms of beauty blockers in the first place. You know nothing about it. So let me just be very clear. There are countless doctors that will specifically in circumstances see that it's actually beneficial that the risk benefit analysis indicates that it's beneficial. And I think that in those determinations it should be up to the doctors and the parents and the kid and not us in the context of the legislation.

[00:05:23]>> We're seeing countless more doctors agree with me actually. So they're banning it in the UK, Sweden. I heard uh plenty of US states. So >> wait, wait, wait. That's not in most places. So then would you then agree with all the doctors that are that are not saying to ban it?

[00:05:38]>> It it is actually most places in the world it is banned for minors.

[00:05:42]>> So wait, so hold up. You were you were saying that it's it's getting banned in most places specifically that you would look at, right? You're not going to look at just like what uh countries all around the world have and then you're going to then make your determination of oh it's what's most places around the world. For example, do you want a universal healthcare system?

[00:05:58]>> Uh, yeah. Yeah, I want >> you do.

[00:06:00]>> Yeah.

[00:06:00]>> Okay. Okay. Do you So, do you want gun control uh legislation that prevents people from getting access to guns?

[00:06:08]>> Uh, well, I think I want gun license.

[00:06:11]Gun license.

[00:06:12]>> But like we want exactly what they have in other countries, right? Other countries, they ban guns, right?

[00:06:17]>> So, we should we should do that, too.

[00:06:19]>> Not completely because American they ban they ban guns. Yeah. What are you talking about?

[00:06:24]>> Yeah. Other countries have but no US state has banned guns.

[00:06:27]>> Okay. Wait. But wait, that's regardless.

[00:06:29]You don't b judge it based upon states.

[00:06:30]You were judging it based upon foreign countries, right?

[00:06:33]>> I don't know. I think according to >> earlier you were citing foreign countries as a reason as to why we should specifically address that.

[00:06:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. But America has different circumstances. Like for in Alaska, if you're in Alaska, you basically need a gun to like defend yourself from bears or whatever. So, I don't know. It's it's a little different. And also many European countries have >> again the point that I'm making though is that you don't judge it based upon just what other countries have. You judge it based upon an argument based upon reasoning right?

[00:07:03]>> No no I do I do judge it based on other countries as well.

[00:07:06]>> So if all other countries ban guns then you'd argue to ban guns here.

[00:07:12]Uh I mean but yeah if they had justification for banning guns like if >> No I'm asking I'm asking you just just the fact in of itself that all other countries have banned guns would that mean you want to ban guns?

[00:07:24]>> Not the fact itself but I was just >> okay so so then the point is then true that you can't just bring up the fact in of itself that another country has banned this and then use it as justification to ban it here. That's not a good argument.

[00:07:36]>> But it's not just that the country has banned it. It's that the doctors from those countries have >> Wait, but like there are doctors in this country that indicate that it's effective and the doctors have not indicated that it should be banned in this country >> more. No, we're actually seeing a a stark contrast now from uh for gender how to treat gender dysphoria. Like there are more and more doctors that are speaking out against this. So, >> okay. So, more and more doctors quote unquote speaking out against this and I'd love to see the source that you're referencing. That doesn't at all change the fact that the doctors that indicate that it will be useful or beneficial.

[00:08:08]You would then say that you want to listen to, right? Because you said that you're listening to the science, you're listening to the doctors. So, if a doctor determines that the risk benefit analysis shows that it's more effective for the kid to be able to get access to puberty blockers, uh then would you argue that they should be able to get access to it?

[00:08:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. But we've seen the opposite research.

[00:08:26]>> Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for the concessions.

[00:08:29]>> No, no, no. Because we that's not that doesn't reflect our reality because we've seen the opposite. We've seen that you >> mean it doesn't reflect our reality.

[00:08:35]That does reflect our reality. There are countless situations where people get puberty blockers where they did so through the context of a medical professional and their parents. That's literally how they how they get puberty blockers in the first place.

[00:08:44]>> I'm saying I'm saying we're seeing evidence that it's actually harmful, not beneficial.

[00:08:50]>> Okay. But the evidence in the bibliography bio, you can actually see otherwise if you'd like to go check it out.

[00:08:55]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You mean the small sample sizes, short follow-up studies?

[00:08:59]Got it.

[00:09:00]>> So, by the way, the the the evidence is about you guys banning it is really just about them being uncertain, not about the fact that they have impact to say or negative.

[00:09:12]>> Okay. Well, I still think uh even even trans people, by the way, are against all of these like puberty blockers for kids. So, like >> mostly mostly trans people say that you should have puberty blockers. Like you're able to get puberty blockers.

[00:09:26]You're just wrong on that.

[00:09:29]>> Well, I was like, >> why are you seeing this?

[00:09:31]>> No, I was seeing this video of this guy, this trans person saying, "Oh, we shouldn't have puberty blockers for kids."

[00:09:38]>> Yeah. One trans person said this, therefore most trans people think this.

[00:09:41]Is that really your argument?

[00:09:44]Literally a single person in a video said this. Therefore, most trans people think this. Okay.

[00:09:53]>> I'm sure. I'm sure it's a lot of trans people that think >> you're Are you actually Is that seriously your argument?

[00:09:59]>> Well, my argument is look at other countries, what they're doing.

[00:10:01]>> Wait, pause, pause, pause. No, no.

[00:10:03]Specifically about trans people. Was that only Was that your only argument?

[00:10:08]>> That's your only argument for saying that most trans people think this? I've I've given you a whole argument already.

[00:10:13]>> Wait, no. You literally just gave one person.

[00:10:17]>> You said there was one person you saw in a video that said this. What?

[00:10:22]>> Yeah. And Okay.

[00:10:23]>> I promise you there's more than one trans person in the chat listening to the stream right now that absolutely agrees with my point of view.

[00:10:30]>> I promise you.

[00:10:31]>> Yeah. Because they're in an they're in an echo chamber.

[00:10:33]>> Oh, okay. You So, can you define echo chamber?

[00:10:37]>> Yeah. Yeah, an echo chamber is a space where a bunch of people with the same ideas just uh spread them back and forth with each other.

[00:10:45]>> Really? So, is a debate panel really that you really think a debate panel is just going to be the same people with the same views? Really, I'm debating you, my guy. We have disagreeing opinions. It's a debate. The whole the whole point of the stream is about disagreeing with each other. This is literally antithetical to what echo chamber is.

[00:11:04]>> No, because everyone in your chat agrees with you. So, how is this an echo chamber? How is it not an echo chamber?

[00:11:09]>> You don't agree with me. They're And also the people in the chat, they're watching a live stream where people agree and disagree and debate on that.

[00:11:16]It's not like someone's in like a liberal live where they're just talking to liberals that agree with them. That could be an echo chamber. You could define it as that. If it's only liberals in there and it's just like a Q&A live stream, you're only doing liberals. Only liberals are brought up on the panels or whatever and it's all just liberals in the stream. That's an echo chamber. This is the exact opposite of echo chamber.

[00:11:36]The fact that you would describe this as an echo chamber, one proves you don't know what an echo chamber is. Two, shows how stupid you are. And three is just embarrassing.

[00:11:46]>> Wait, so you think if there are 5,000 people watching and you basically have this ritual where you bring up Trump supporters and try to make them look bad by insulting them? You don't think that's an echo chamber?

[00:11:56]>> Uh, so I bring people up and I insult them after I destroy their arguments.

[00:12:00]Yeah, that's that's not an echo chamber.

[00:12:03]That's the opposite of an echo chamber.

[00:12:04]>> Do you think you've ever lost an argument?

[00:12:07]>> No, I've never lost an argument. Yes, of course I've lost an argument before. Not against MAGA, but I've lost an argument before.

[00:12:13]>> You don't think you've ever lost an argument against a conservative Trump supporter?

[00:12:17]>> No. Never. Literally never.

[00:12:20]>> So, you're just proving my point that this is clearly an echo chamber. And obviously you have obviously you have. I mean, but >> I could say I could say I've been wrong on points. like I' I've misread things, I've said things incorrectly, I've been wrong on points, but I can't say I've ever lost a debate to a Trump supporter.

[00:12:37]Yeah, I can't say that.

[00:12:39]>> So So do you think it's possible for you to ever lose a debate to a Trump supporter or No, >> for example, let me give you an example though. I have lost a debate to a Christian when I was an agnostic when I literally didn't know anything about it.

[00:12:53]Like actually when I first started doing my like lives where I do prove to me God exists, I had no clue. I literally didn't know any of the arguments. I learned Pascal's wager from the live.

[00:13:01]Like I learned all these arguments from the live. I heard the Colon cosmological argument first on the live. So like I had no examples with this before and a really strong Christian debater came up and debated me and knew way more about the topic than me. I've definitely lost a debate on that before. Now I've I've I've come back and done that and I debated that same person. I would say I definitely have a different uh different result now. But the point I would then make is that the I I can acknowledge if I've ever lost a debate. I just genuinely don't think I've ever lost a debate to a MAGA supporter.

[00:13:32]>> Yeah. I'm I'm sure you've probably lost like debates regarding uh transgenderism or whatever.

[00:13:38]>> No, never.

[00:13:39]>> Never.

[00:13:40]>> Never.

[00:13:42]>> Really? So >> never once.

[00:13:44]>> What is a woman?

[00:13:45]>> What is a woman? An adult human person that's committed towards social and cultural norms. So typically associate the female sex as a prescription of their gender identity. Wait, wait, but that's actually an incorrect definition because a real definition is a woman is an adult human female. So, you're just already lost.

[00:13:59]>> That is so embarrassing. Already lost.

[00:14:01]>> That's so embarrassing. You can't say I have an incorrect definition. I'm telling you how I'm using the term.

[00:14:04]>> No, literally the dictionary, >> dude. Listen, >> the dictionary >> I'm going to mute you. So, the dictionary doesn't define the only usage of terms. The dictionary is a catalog for how we typically use terms. So, language is subjective. It's dependent on upon the way that you're using it.

[00:14:17]All you have to do is clarify the way that you're using a specific term. I clarified the way that I'm using the term in that cont that context and you said I'm incorrect for using a term that doesn't make any sense. I would only be incorrect if I misused the term with respect to the definition that I was using.

[00:14:33]>> Yeah. So well still your definition is absurd because you could also apply that to like a species identity to race identity. Like what is >> what is that even supposed to mean?

[00:14:44]>> What is stopping someone from transitioning?

[00:14:47]I could not apply that to race or to species.

[00:14:50]>> Yes, you can because there are social characteristics associated with species associated with race that people might have a different internal sense of identity to align with. So it's completely absurd that >> so for example we we believe that uh names are legitimate and valid, right?

[00:15:07]>> And that's like a social label that we align with as a part of our identity, right?

[00:15:15]>> Yeah, sure. I mean, >> could I come up to you and Okay. So, so if you think that that's valid, you think social labels of identity are valid, then what's invalid about a social label for identity relating to gender >> because gender overwhelmingly reflects biological sex. Obviously, >> I'm well, that's not how we're using the term here. And I would actually overwhelmingly say that it doesn't. I would say most of our experience with gender is from a sociological standpoint, not from a biological. I'm not looking at someone's chromosomes, someone's gametes, or someone's genitalia when I am determining their gender, right? Or I am engaging with the the presentation or how they engage with gender, their identity relates to gender. None of that is something that we're ever going to engage with from each other unless referencing like our significant others or something like that, like people that you are there with an intimate basis and you're going to know things about them. You're going to be close to them with that respect, then obviously you might know those specific things about them to a greater extent. Okay? But the fact of the matter is is that most of our experience with gender is not from that biological basis. It's from the social basis.

[00:16:19]>> No, I I disagree because it is from the physical traits you have. You can easily observe there's a reason like a man the typical heterosexual relationship, right? Is a man uh dating a woman and they appear they have different physical characteristics obviously and that's how we reproduce as humans. So for you to say there's no physical uh determination of gender, right, is like ridiculous.

[00:16:46]It's not all your feelings.

[00:16:48]>> Well, it's it's you're not you're misunderstanding my perspective, right?

[00:16:52]So obviously there are presentations that relate to gender, of course, but obviously they're going to be predicated off of at least how I use gender based upon our social commitments to be in accordance with certain sets of social and cultural norms that are typically associated with sex as a prescription of our gender identity. So that's the way that I'm using the term. Now, if you're saying, "Oh, I have this biological usage of the term." Sure, you can have your own biological usage, but that's separate from the way that I'm using the term. That doesn't make the way that I'm using the term incorrect. That doesn't make the way that I'm using the term uh [ __ ] That doesn't make the way that I'm using the term nonsense just because you use the term differently than I do or other people in society use the term differently than I do.

[00:17:28]>> Well, I think it is nonsense because your term implies that your term, >> by the way, you probably believe the election in 2020 was rigged. You probably believe vaccines aren't safe and effective. If we can go through all of this.

[00:17:38]>> Hey, you can keep interrupting me or I can speak. Right. So, it implies that if I uh believe I'm a woman and I truly believe it, suddenly I'm a woman. So, where is the reality uh like involved in that? It seems like >> it's not logically possible for you to truly believe that because you are not trans. You are not in a situation where you have that understanding. But for people who do truly have the understanding of the commitments to be in accordance with this particular set of social and cultural norms with expression expression of their gender identity, absolutely. If they're you're a trans woman, you are a woman. If you're a trans man, you are a man.

[00:18:11]Absolutely.

[00:18:13]>> So, do you think if I truly believed I was a woman? Uh would I be a woman?

[00:18:18]>> Again, like I just told you, that's not possible for you because you're >> How is it not possible?

[00:18:21]>> Cuz you're sis.

[00:18:22]>> Wait, how why are you assuming my identity? You haven't even asked for my pronouns. Uh, I don't I don't need to ask for your pronouns. I know based upon the arguments you're making and based upon how you're presenting yourself, right, exactly what your identity is, exactly where you're coming from, and exactly that you're not trans. So, you're stereotyping me essentially. So, what if I, for example, stereotype a a trans woman to be a man because they look like a man, right? Is that wrong, do you think?

[00:18:50]>> I would think that's wrong, but that's not the way that I'm making this determination. I'm making this determination based upon your ideological preferences and the way that you're phrasing these arguments. That's the way that I came to a determination specifically that you are not trans, right? And based upon your presentation of this argument because it's basic deductive reasoning. What you just provided is not deductive reasoning.

[00:19:11]>> So So you're saying you can't you can't just you just tried to criticize deductive reasoning. That's what you just tried to do.

[00:19:16]>> But what you're saying basically is that I can't be trans. You're basically discriminating against me.

[00:19:21]>> Yeah. You you can't be trans because you're sis. Is that complicated?

[00:19:24]>> Wait, but what? Wait, why can't I be trans?

[00:19:27]>> What? Like, seriously, I don't think it's that complicated for you to be like, "Oh, I can't be trans because I'm sis." Yeah. Can Can you be gay? No, you're straight.

[00:19:37]>> Wait, wait, why are you like labeling people? Do you think What about the dransitioners? Do you think that they were never trans? Because by that logic, you believe people are born trans.

[00:19:47]Correct. If you think I can't change to be a transgender person.

[00:19:52]>> Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that the understanding the way that they respond is is sort of innate and is not specifically just based upon some sort of valitional choice to do so. It's based upon a way that they innately respond to these particular social and cultural norms.

[00:20:05]>> So, do you think people are born in the wrong body then basically because you think they're born trans?

[00:20:10]>> Um, so certain aspects of their body aren't reflective of their gender identity, their true gender identity.

[00:20:15]Yeah.

[00:20:16]>> Okay. So if why do we then see like for example I believe that you know genetics has some component in uh being gay right so we see gay people even in conservative households even in the Middle East where it's not acceptable we don't see trans people in other societies >> they do they exist >> okay name one trans person from the 1800s >> name one trans person from the 18 can can you can you name one um uh short person that was underh 5 foot one from the 1800s.

[00:20:49]>> I'm I'm sorry. What? How is that related to my question?

[00:20:51]>> Can you name one short person under 5'1 from the 1800s?

[00:20:55]>> Wait, I'm I'm sure there we've seen >> So, you don't think short people under 5'1 existed in the 1800s? Wow, that's crazy, bro.

[00:21:01]>> No, no, no. But >> because you can't name a single short person under 5'1 in the 1800s, >> then that means that they didn't exist, right?

[00:21:10]>> No, no, but I could look one up right now. I don't have >> And I could look up a trans person from the 1800s. Try try looking them up.

[00:21:16]>> Wait, you you understand that you can like that's just an embarrassing thing to argue.

[00:21:22]>> I can name like Oscar Wild was gay from 1800.

[00:21:24]>> Wait, I'm sorry. There's like there are historical um historical basises for trans people existing. There's historical art that trans people.

[00:21:32]There's historical right there there's historical stories and books and uh representations of trans people. That's that's definitely very clear.

[00:21:43]Wait. So then name name a trans person though.

[00:21:45]>> There are people spamming them in the chat.

[00:21:50]>> Someone said Queen Victoria. I mean completely incorrect >> that that's you're they're referencing specifically under 5'1. I'm assuming.

[00:21:59]>> Okay. Well, we'll see. There's no one spamming any real transfers. They're saying Shakespeare.

[00:22:05]>> You're like not reading the chat. You're like purposefully not. He's just acting like he doesn't see things in the chat.

[00:22:10]Like, dude, how embarrassing, bro.

[00:22:14]>> I mean, my man I >> just acting like you don't see the chat is hilarious, dude. Like, the chat is spamming people and he's just like he's just acting like he doesn't read it in the chat. It's really funny.

[00:22:24]>> My point is that I'm sure gender dysphoria existed, but I I don't >> gender dysphoria is not the same thing as being trans. There are people who are not trans with gender dysphoria.

[00:22:32]>> Okay. Do you know what is required to undergo >> Do you agree that there are people who are not trans with gender dysphoria? I think there are people who claim to be trans, but I I don't think >> Are there people who are not trans who have gender dysphoria?

[00:22:47]>> Um, yeah, I'm sure. Definitely. Of course.

[00:22:49]>> Okay, thank you for the concession.

[00:22:50]>> Wait, no. How is it a concession?

[00:22:52]Because I think >> because because you acknowledge that being trans and having gender dysphoria are not the exact same thing is basically basically made up and that uh people with gender dysphoria shouldn't transition to the opposite sex. I think that's ridiculous.

[00:23:08]is that you're not actually like providing an argument. You're just simply saying that you just don't like trans people. And you know what I have to say to you? Go yourself.

[00:23:15]>> Okay.

[00:23:15]>> Stop worrying about people's genitalia.

[00:23:17]Stop being so obsessed about trans people's existence. You literally are so unbelievably obsessed with trans people.

[00:23:24]Just let them exist, bro. They just want to exist.

[00:23:26]>> No, but they're trying to force me to call >> They're not forcing you jack [ __ ] You're just being a dick.

[00:23:31]>> Aren't they?

[00:23:32]>> Aren't they?

[00:23:33]>> They're trying to force you to be respectful. They're They're telling you to not be a dick, dude.

[00:23:37]>> So tell me, you would probably not care.

[00:23:39]>> Like, seriously. Like, wait, are you mad that people in society tell you to not be a dick?

[00:23:44]>> No. No. I think they are actually the >> Wait, that's what's happening. You're literally mad that trans people are saying don't be a dick. That's literally all your m Wait, and it's not just trans people. It's also me. I'm telling you, don't be a dick to trans people. I'm not trans and I'm telling you right now.

[00:23:58]>> Wait, what if I said >> stop being a disrespectful little [ __ ] Like, what?

[00:24:02]>> You said I You said I couldn't be trans.

[00:24:03]That's Isn't that transphobic? You said I couldn't be >> No, it's not because you're sis. I said you can't be trans because you're sis.

[00:24:09]>> So, a cisgender person can't go and say they want to be trans.

[00:24:14]>> That's That's insane for you to say.

[00:24:15]>> You can't just You can't You can't just be like, "Oh, now I'm trans." That's not how it works.

[00:24:20]>> If you're sis, that literally by the way being sis literally means by definition that you're not trans. Like like how could you be trans and also be sis?

[00:24:31]That makes no sense. That's logically incapable.

[00:24:34]>> You don't think you can?

[00:24:35]>> It's literally It is literally logically contradictory. So when I say you can't, yes, I literally mean you can't because it's contradictory.

[00:24:45]>> You don't think you can start out sis and then become trans later.

[00:24:48]>> Um I think that you could have a difference in understanding, but you were trans, right? Like you could have an understand like for example like for example my um my sister who uh who is uh uh who is gay she specifically throughout her whole life thought she was straight because she grew up in a conservative Christian household in Iowa where specifically that's how she was taught she was but she was not straight.

[00:25:09]>> She never was straight. Right? That's just what she was taught she was and that's the way that she viewed herself from that particular standpoint. That doesn't mean she was straight at any point in time. That simply just means that that was what society was telling her. So that's the way that she saw herself because that's the only way that society told her is the way that she could have saw herself. Okay. But she still was gay. Like that's like it would be ridiculous to say that she went from straight to becoming gay. Like your argument that you're making right now is the same type of argument.

[00:25:41]>> No, there are definitely straight people who become gay later that were straight before. It's absolutely true.

[00:25:49]You don't believe that?

[00:25:50]>> I I I would say that that's probably some something alignment with being bisexual >> or there's some fluidity that exists there. Um >> there are men that go to prison and then they become gay. Do you know that?

[00:26:02]>> They didn't become gay.

[00:26:04]>> No, no, they do.

[00:26:05]>> They would have already had that attraction.

[00:26:07]>> No, no, no. That's How do you know? Why are you speaking for every single person? That's not their experience.

[00:26:13]>> So, let me let me explain. So if you have an attraction that can be fluid, that is something that you have always had. It's not something that you can just gain by choice. Does that make sense?

[00:26:26]>> No, but your attractions can totally change though.

[00:26:29]>> So but but that's not out of choice, right?

[00:26:33]>> Uh I I wouldn't say your attractions are out of choice, but obviously like your decisions are out of your choice. Right.

[00:26:42]>> Right. But do you understand that that's not out of choice? Right. And also like in in terms of this like again that was from the baseline they already were fluid in terms of their sexuality. Okay.

[00:26:54]It's not that they just went from not being fluid to being fluid. Does that make sense?

[00:26:59]>> No. They would have been straight before.

[00:27:02]>> What that?

[00:27:04]>> Yeah. They're there are definitely uh gay people in prison right now that when they get out of prison they will go back to being straight as well. This is just like >> So they're bisexual.

[00:27:15]>> No, they're not bisexual. It's just their environment changed.

[00:27:21]>> Okay, that's still not out of choice. Do you agree?

[00:27:25]>> Wait, do you think you could choose to be gay?

[00:27:27]>> No, no, no, I don't think that.

[00:27:29]>> Okay, so then I don't know what your argument is.

[00:27:30]>> I think I think that um very woke families can influence their kids to become trans when they wouldn't have been otherwise.

[00:27:41]>> Yeah. So, how could you have been influenced to be trans if you grew up with woke parents?

[00:27:45]>> Oh, everyone could have. Yeah.

[00:27:48]>> No. If I grew up with woke parents, I would not have been trans.

[00:27:52]>> Well, then why do we see higher rates of trans children uh when there is one other trans child in the household? Do you know that if you have one transchild in the household, uh it is a much higher possibility that you'll have another sibling who is trans or non-binary.

[00:28:08]>> It's more acceptable.

[00:28:11]No, no. It's not just that it's more acceptable. It's that it's almost >> literally it's out of acceptance.

[00:28:15]>> Basically, >> that's like actually the explanation.

[00:28:19]>> So, you think you think people are born trans? Basically, that's insane. There's no evidence.

[00:28:23]>> I do I do think that there's like like being trans is an innate way of responding to the social and cultural norms that exist in society the same way that me being a man is my innate way of responding to the social and cultural norms that typically exist in the society.

[00:28:36]>> You define what gender is, by the way.

[00:28:38]Like, what is gender? I already defined it for you.

[00:28:40]>> No, you said what a woman is. You didn't say what gender is.

[00:28:43]>> Well, gender is again, it's going to be pretty trivial because I already mentioned to you what it is, but it's going to be the commitments to be in accordance with certain sets of social and cultural norms are typically associated with the sexes as a prescription of your gender identity.

[00:28:56]>> Okay? So, at the end of the day, it's based on how you feel, right? Because you can have >> it's based upon your commitments to be in accordance with certain characteristics, a prescription of gender identity. Well, for example, like a tomboy a tomboy uh is >> is your name based on the way that you feel?

[00:29:12]>> Uh well, my name's assigned at birth.

[00:29:14]So, >> okay. But like not everyone's name is like JD Vance. You call him JD Vance.

[00:29:19]>> Oh, yeah. Because that's >> But that's not his name assigned at birth.

[00:29:22]>> Well, it's it's the nickname probably he grew up with, right? So, >> no, no, no. He changed his name.

[00:29:30]>> What What was his original name?

[00:29:32]>> I mean, I don't actually think that that would be a good thing to say. I think you should look it up yourself if you want to do that.

[00:29:36]>> But as I was saying, like a tomboy is a girl who aligns like typically with the characteristics associated with the male sex, right? That doesn't mean they're a boy.

[00:29:49]>> Repeat that.

[00:29:50]>> Like, do you know what a tomboy is? It's a girl who um has similar characteristics to that of the male.

[00:29:58]>> They're not they're not uh in accordance with those characteristics as a prescription of their gender identity, though. Oh, wait.

[00:30:04]>> Again, there are feminine men. There are masculine women. And that does not mean that the I'm not saying because you have an expression of a characteristic that makes you that gender. That's not the argument. The argument is the commitment to be in accordance with those characteristics as a prescription of your gender identity. Do you see why I define it the way that I do is it's also just to clarify the way that I I establish it is to get especially around the argument that you're mentioning because I've thought about that before.

[00:30:28]Well, I know the way you define it is so abstract that it becomes almost meaning meaning meaningless basically because >> it's so abstract everybody meaning no it's just that you don't have a criticism of it. You're just mad criticize it. You're mad that you can't find an easy way to say that you're that I'm wrong. That's why >> no my criticism why my argument is so strong here is because it makes you flop like a fish, bro. Because you don't know how to respond to it because you don't understand it because it actually makes sense to you. you're wi you're unwilling to acknowledge it >> because you're so used to dealing with people, right, specifically that don't know how to explain it because there's no need to have to explain it. Okay? No one needs to be able to explain this.

[00:31:09]Like the typical person does not need to have the hyper debate bro explanation that I have. No one has that for like a chair, for tables, or for ordinary things in our life. We don't need to have that for what men and women are, for what gender is. These are ordinary concepts that are pretty difficult to define because it's very very hard to define necessary and sufficient conditions that will establish gender and sex. I actually think it's impossible to do so. If you were to boil down anyone's argument for gender for sex for establishing the conditions that establish gender for sex, no one will be able to establish necessary and sufficient conditions for establishing gender or sex that they actually will end up applying in definition cases. I think it's going to be depending different depending on the context, right? That's how it's typically going to be.

[00:31:55]>> Yeah. So, basically what you're saying is that it's based on how you feel and no one can really define it, right? So, >> I already defined it. I defined it and you're just angry that I provided you that debate bro definition >> and you're so mad that you can't get around the debate bro definition that you started complaining about it.

[00:32:11]>> Wait, tell me. Why can't I change my species? Why can't I align? Why can't I put on a panda costume and become a panda? Why not?

[00:32:19]>> Well, I mean, I think that we could say that like for example, like you can for like the representation, but not in literal sense because of the fact that we use it in a biological sense. We don't refer to animals in solely just a social sense. There is no understanding of animals that is typically or commonly understood at all, right? Where people specifically are doing so, right, in a legitimate sense where it is that they legitimately are that in which uh they are representing, >> right? Like for example, like when I was a kid, I I did uh in like the when I was at church, I I played a sheep in the in the you know when you did do like Jesus in the manger or whatever.

[00:32:56]>> Um like the three wise men show up and whatnot. You know, you know the the whole deal. I played a sheep, right? And I was a sheep then. But that doesn't mean I was literally a sheep. I was representing a sheep, >> right?

[00:33:07]>> Yeah. Sure. And I believe a trans woman could like pass as a woman, right? If they really trick someone. But that doesn't trick is that they are a woman.

[00:33:15]It's because our understanding of gender isn't solely biological. The your notion of gender is not the only understanding of it. And also again, we don't there is no understanding of animals where we're specifically going to have a commitment to be in accordance with how animals act, which is then going to literally make me an animal. There is no understanding of that. Okay. What you're arguing is that because some social social norms operate a certain way, that means all social norms have to operate that way, which is not true. For example, because you can pick your name, does that mean you can pick your gender?

[00:33:48]>> No, because gender flex.

[00:33:50]>> Wait, there you go. You just conceded.

[00:33:51]You don't think all social constructs operate the same just because they're social constructs?

[00:33:56]>> Well, if a social construct is meaningless, right? So, if you're if you can change your name, your name eventually becomes basically meaningless. But, uh, >> wait, you can't change your gender.

[00:34:05]>> And it's not meaningless.

[00:34:07]>> Well, the reason you can't change your gender is because >> Wait, do you agree? You can change your name.

[00:34:12]Yeah, legally you can change your name.

[00:34:13]>> If you change your name, does that make your name meaningless?

[00:34:17]>> Uh, well, it it could be meaningful to you, but it doesn't reflect any reality.

[00:34:22]>> It does. It reflects the reality of what your identity is. What your name is?

[00:34:28]>> Well, what what reality is that?

[00:34:30]>> Your name is this.

[00:34:33]>> Yeah. So, that's not >> This is your This is your social tag for identification.

[00:34:39]>> Sure. Sure. And you could that doesn't mean it reflects anything in reality. It just is a social >> construct. Social Wait, so you don't think Do you think language is within reality?

[00:34:50]>> Oh yeah. It's how we communicate with each other.

[00:34:52]>> Yeah, cuz that's socially determined.

[00:34:54]All language is social.

[00:34:56]>> No, it's biological.

[00:35:00]>> But yeah, you're right. It is social and cultural.

[00:35:02]>> No, it's not. It's social. Okay. Did you just really say language is biological?

[00:35:07]What type of does >> humans naturally have the capacity for language right? uh not all humans and let me just clarify let me just clarify um >> most obviously >> wait we have the capacity to understand and engage with language does not mean that it's biological specific that language is biological we developed right we have a biological capability to socially engage in that way does that make sense >> yeah but it's bas it's based in reality in the way that our brain naturally has a tendency to develop language right >> wait so then if you if you think that um so Again, gender is just an uh a byproduct of language. It's an aspect of language. So, if you think that language can be referred to in that way, so then so is gender because you can't find any relevant symmetry breaker between the two >> because gender is overwhelmingly dependent on biological sex besides for a small minority of people who deny that basically they have gender dysphoria.

[00:36:03]So, >> wait again, wait, that's not what gender dysphoria is. One, and then two, that's not that's not what um people who are trans think, right? You do not deny biological sex because you're trans. You can acknowledge biological sex and be trans.

[00:36:17]>> Yeah.

[00:36:17]>> Like trans men acknowledge they're biologically female. Trans women acknowledge they're biologically male.

[00:36:22]Right. We're not saying that when we reference gender. We're referencing specifically, right, the social construct of gender. We're not referencing, right, specifically just biology.

[00:36:32]>> Well, the problem is they call people who don't want to date trans women, right? They call a straight man who doesn't want to date a trans woman transphobic when obviously that isn't transphobic, right? What do you think about that?

[00:36:47]>> Um, so I mean it it can come from a place of transphobia, but I don't think just because you don't want to date a particular trans person that makes it transphobic. That's not an argument that anyone no one argues that because you don't find a particular trans person attractive that then makes you transphobic. That that would be a ridiculous argument.

[00:37:03]>> What if I don't want to date any trans woman? If you don't want to date any trans woman, >> well, I mean, you could just be in a relationship already, right?

[00:37:11]Technically, you don't want to date anyone else other than the person you're with. That could be that could be a particular understanding. If you're saying you have a preference against attraction against trans people just because they're trans, I would say I think you're lying.

[00:37:24]>> Wait, I do have a >> I I think you're lying. I think I could totally find pictures of trans people that you would find attractive.

[00:37:30]>> No, no, but what if I don't think that makes you gay or bisexual? You can be straight and you can find trans women attractive.

[00:37:38]>> Well, you could be tricked into thinking they're women into thinking they possess >> Wait, so you still ended up finding them attractive.

[00:37:44]>> Yeah, you would be tricked.

[00:37:45]>> When you say tricked, that's just cringe. Like that you say tricked like it's they're not tricking you in any means. They're literally a woman, >> but they don't have the capacity.

[00:37:52]>> And you you found them attractive.

[00:37:55]>> They don't >> and you're just mad that you found them attractive. Like it's actually it's actually it's really funny that like you literally are going to be like, "Oh, but I got tricked." Well, you still found them attractive. But I don't find them attractive.

[00:38:07]>> You did >> obviously because you literally did.

[00:38:09]That's why you said you quote unquote got tricked.

[00:38:12]>> No, no. I said I could foresee a circumstance, a rare rare circumstance where you could be tricked, right? That doesn't mean um like o that doesn't defeat the overwhelming trend that trans women aren't attractive, right? They're not going to pass they're not going to attract a straight man.

[00:38:28]>> Wait, there are plenty of trans women that straight men find attractive. I'm confused what your argument is. No, I just I disagree. But also, >> what for you?

[00:38:37]>> Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, you you could make the argument that you don't you couldn't find a single trans person attractive.

[00:38:44]>> Well, I think um you could find them like attractive, but that would be extremely rare and it would be >> Thank you. Thank you for the concession.

[00:38:53]>> It would be dependent on tricking you.

[00:38:54]>> Wait, wait. So, thank you. Thank you for the concession though that you can find a trans person attractive and still be straight, right?

[00:38:59]>> Yeah, but that doesn't >> Thank you for the concession. Now, can we move on?

[00:39:03]>> But that doesn't negate the overwhelming trend that they're not attractive. But okay, sure. We can move on. What do you want to talk about next?

[00:39:08]>> Wait, you could you could overwhelmingly not find a whole group of people attractive, but then you find some members of that group attractive and you still what? Like for like for example, right, you could find only a few men attractive out of all men and that would still make you bisexual.

[00:39:25]>> No, I don't think that would though.

[00:39:28]If you were sexually attracted to some men, only a few men who were like you deemed to be attractive, that makes you bisexual.

[00:39:37]>> Well, you would be overwhelmingly straight, though. So, I don't >> That's still bisexual, though.

[00:39:41]>> I think no bisexual.

[00:39:43]>> Wait, you you understand the spectrum?

[00:39:45]It's not just like when you're bisexual, it's not just like 50/50 down the middle.

[00:39:50]>> What being bisexual is >> I don't think anyone is like 100% gay or 100% straight. Like I don't believe we're 100% bisexual, right?

[00:39:58]>> I don't believe that.

[00:39:59]>> Whoa. Holy [ __ ] Holy [ __ ] What is going on here? So, you don't think anyone's 100% straight? I'm 100% straight.

[00:40:05]>> No, but I feel if you went >> I'm 100% straight. Like I I don't like that's what being straight is. If you aren't 100% straight, that means you're bisexual.

[00:40:15]>> I guarantee you you if you went to prison, >> that's like literally what that means, right?

[00:40:20]>> You would probably be attracted to men, bro. You You would definitely in prison you would. I I can tell just based on how you act basically, right? I can tell.

[00:40:28]>> He's saying you're saying if I went to prison, I would find men attractive. No, that's not how it works.

[00:40:35]>> But but dude, wait, Henry, did did you just you just understand what bisexual means? So, yes, if you are not 100% straight, then yes, you are going to be bisexual. And by the way, you making this argument tells me you're bisexual.

[00:40:47]There's nothing wrong with being bisexual at all.

[00:40:51]No, but it doesn't >> like you're actually you're actually flabbergasted that I said that you can be 100% straight. Like like actually you're kind of flabbergasted and that's totally fine. That's understanding.

[00:41:00]>> Like for example, you know, like a kid >> a kid that is raised by orangutans might might end up eventually being attracted to an orangutan, right?

[00:41:11]>> What? Dude, no. What are you talking about, bro? It >> It isn't just based on genetics. It's based on environment.

[00:41:16]>> Oh my god, dude. Wait, are you saying that someone could could raise you to be attracted to an orangutang?

[00:41:24]>> No. If it was like a Are you saying your parents could have raised you to be attracted to orangutang?

[00:41:31]>> No, I didn't say that.

[00:41:36]>> I didn't say that.

[00:41:37]>> That was literally what your argument was, by the way.

[00:41:39]>> Listen, the the environmental argument for same gendered attractions is played out in old, okay? Like when when when people started to say this in the mainstream forever ago, okay, it was then tested heavily with what?

[00:41:54]Conversion therapy. We saw conversion therapies pop up around the country. Uh quite frankly, around the world. Why?

[00:42:01]Because if being gay is driven by environment, then in the right environment, being straight could be driven by environment and then you could turn a gay man straight. But the thing is is that uh these conversion therapies that put that hypothesis to the test absolutely failed. Every single one of them ended up shutting down. Uh and then the founders of them admitted their crimes against humanity and uh apologized to members of the LGBTQ plus community and acknowledged that it never worked. Most of these conversion therapies were operated by self-proclaimed exgaymen saying that their methods worked on themselves. The largest of these being Exodus International that shut down in the early 2000s. And when they shut down, their quotequote exgay owner said um that you know he was even still gay and that the conversion therapy didn't work on him and that he was sorry for what he had done. Uh and of course we we see a bunch of uh lesbian, gay, by andexual and queer people come from environments where you just wouldn't naturally expect that outcome given that your hypothesis was true, right? such as incredibly conservative Christian families. Um, and uh, for all for these reasons and plenty more, I I I find the environmental argument to be false. Now, maybe you'll say that the environmental argument is true because there's a higher reported level of gay people today than there was 100 years ago. And clearly, society is more accepting of gay people today. So maybe the environment of society is just driving more people to be gay as a percentage of the population. But the same thing could be said about people who were self-reportedly left-handed when we really stigmatized that in the uh 60s7s 80s and 90s. There was a significantly lower percentage of the population that reported uh being left-handed. But now that society does not stigmatize being left-handed as much. Uh the overall percentage of the population that quotequote is left-handed has skyrocketed. So uh I I think that the issue here is more so people under reporting their sexuality when they're more oppressed. uh and then feeling more confident in reporting who they are when they're not as oppressed.

[00:44:08]>> Yeah. Well, I think there's both environmental factors and genetic factors. So, I think it'd be ignorant to assume otherwise.

[00:44:20]>> So, what's the argument that there are environmental factors to being gay?

[00:44:25]>> Oh, well, because um everything influences our environment. And our personalities influenced by our environment and uh certain personalities are more >> Hey Henry, if you went to prison then you'd be gay.

[00:44:38]>> Wait, sorry. What?

[00:44:39]>> If you went to prison, do you think you'd become gay?

[00:44:42]>> I mean, that's impossible to know.

[00:44:45]>> I'm asking what you think.

[00:44:47]>> No, I don't think anything.

[00:44:51]>> Parker, your question about him being attracted to a ring of things would uh would definitely work right now, right?

[00:44:58]Because you you'd say it actually is true that uh that your environment could um make you attracted to like orangutans, to chickens, to dogs.

[00:45:10]>> We've seen that.

[00:45:12]>> So So you're saying that your parents could have raised you to find dogs attractive?

[00:45:17]>> Uh you're putting No, I'm not saying.

[00:45:20]Why are you >> No, no, because I would have been u introduced to society obviously, right?

[00:45:26]It's it's unforeseeable. You can't predict the future, right? But obviously your environment >> So to clarify, you do think your parents could have raised you to find dogs sexually attractive.

[00:45:34]>> No, I don't I don't think it's literally not possible, right?

[00:45:39]>> I I don't want to say it's not possible.

[00:45:41]>> So it is possible for your dog for your parents to raise you to find dogs sexually attractive.

[00:45:47]>> Well, yeah, a lot of stuff is possible.

[00:45:51]>> Like I don't understand why you're laughing at that because >> that's a crazy concession, bro. You're conceding parents could have raised you to find dogs sexually attractive, bro.

[00:46:00]That's nuts, dude.

[00:46:03]>> That's nuts. Dogs, bro.

[00:46:05]>> Dogs?

[00:46:07]>> I said it's like uh perhaps possible. I don't know the future.

[00:46:11]>> Jesus Christ, bro. Come on. I think I could rule that one out. I think I could rule that one out.

[00:46:19]>> You can rule that one out? What do you mean?

[00:46:20]>> Yeah, I think I could totally rule that one out.

[00:46:24]Well, I I don't understand why you're denying that environment plays a role in your personality in your life.

[00:46:30]>> It does, but not in terms of like you finding like [ __ ] bi like animals sexually attractive. Bro, what are you talking about?

[00:46:37]>> Well, well, yeah. I think we're genetically wired to find humans attractive. But, uh, obviously it's still possible that your environment could like create a disorder where you find animals attractive, right?

[00:46:51]So if you So I just want to clarify here. Would you have any like science or like studies or empirical research here to like demonstrate that one's environment can make them gay?

[00:47:03]>> Uh my my point is that environment plays a role in everything. So you can't there's >> I don't disagree.

[00:47:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't think that like for instance the environment that I'm raised in could change the color of my eyes. I don't think that the environment that I'm raised >> Well, that's a physical trait.

[00:47:23]>> Well, how do you know that being gay isn't underpinned by physical traits of like the brain for instance? Because when we look at the science, we do see that gay men have larger anterior commissions on average compared to straight men, which is the nerve lining between the hemispheres of the brain. uh we see that they have uh different levels of particular neuro hormone such as FSH varying traits of the AI NAH3 subsection of the hypothalamus varying dendritic densities um and in the same way there seems to exist exist sexual dimmorphism between the sexes within one's uh neuroanatomical development that same thing seems to be true uh relative to one's sexual orientation.

[00:48:04]So we've seen like identical twins for example, one of them can be gay, one of them can be straight. So that refutes the idea that you're born. There is no gay gene. Understand? Right.

[00:48:14]So under this view that we have identical twins, one could be gay, one could be straight. Well, what we actually do see is a very strong correlate within twins, okay, for the same sexual orientation.

[00:48:26]>> Yeah. And when we say that well we can't identify a physical marker uh and which is going to be like uh different dependent on the sexual orientation of the two twins therefore there isn't a sexual physical marker well what I would just say is that we don't truly understand all of the complexities of neuroscience in the brain and uh with our limited understanding of the neurosciences seems to be the case that we have identified these correlations and uh in the circumstances where we can't see that correlate. I wouldn't say that rules out the notion that being gay is driven by uh biological underpinnings, but rather we just simply don't understand the biological underpinnings that exist in all in all cases.