HOD S18 Ep7 FCv1

[00:00:00]My theory is that the majority of relationships we know and see today are in this like kind of land of lots of promises and commitments, but not a lot of action and then a lot of just waiting, waiting, waiting and hoping.

[00:00:12]>> Oh, but I get why they're [music] this way. I have so much compassion for why they're this way that it leads me to basically subjecting myself to mistreat.

[00:00:22]>> Yeah, it's the baby bird. Put their life on mute, don't listen to a word. I don't mean that their words don't matter. I'm just saying that actions do matter.

[00:00:29]>> Am I becoming more Christ-like or is this relationship actually moving me away from the Lord?

[00:00:34]>> You know, you're looking for a partner, not a project.

[00:00:36]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:00:37]>> Right, and there's a big difference in those two things.

[00:00:40]>> Has anything actually changed [music] with the person or are you hooked on potential or just emotionally very invested?

[00:00:47]>> Such a good question. Stop asking the question, how long should I stay in this relationship and start asking the question, what evidence do I have that this is growing and forming into a godly, healthy, mature, awesome relationship that I love and really is what I desire that glorifies God.

[00:01:04]>> [music] [music] >> Have you ever had a friend who it just drives you absolutely nuts to see them stay in a relationship that you know, they know, >> Yeah, they should not be in it.

[00:01:26]>> And yet, what do they do? They stay and stay and stay and >> and hope and hope and hope.

[00:01:31]>> And even when they decide to break up, it still takes them weeks and months to actually go through with it.

[00:01:35]>> Yeah, I think this happens with people in relationships and even in the early stages of dating. It's like, "Hey, you got to move on, sis. This is no go."

[00:01:45]>> But why? Why is it so hard for them? And if we're being honest, why is it so hard for us to stay in relationships even when we know it's not working?

[00:01:55]>> Yeah.

[00:01:55]>> That's what we're going to be talking about today, Kate.

[00:01:58]Okay, let me just right off the bat, why do we stay when we know, why do we stay so long sometimes? I mean, I know people who stayed in relationships for months, even a year or two, and they knew the whole time that it wasn't working.

[00:02:13]>> I think the first reason is we get attached to their potential.

[00:02:18]And we just are so excited about the person that they could become. The person that they could become. And we start dating that person that they could become. We imagine a future version of that relationship, of them, and we get excited about it. And we might see little tiny glimmers, like very small glimmers, but at the end of the day, what you need to ask yourself is there actual forward movement on the potential that you're hoping for this person?

[00:02:47]>> Right, cuz >> Or do you want the potential more than they actually want it?

[00:02:50]>> Oh, well, that's definitely true. Now, I guess I kind of wrestle with, what's the difference between dating for potential and, you know, they are not moving towards that versus, hey, they're they are who they are today, but they're growing. They're going to get there one day. They're just maybe a little bit immature in this area.

[00:03:07]>> I say don't date potential, potential meaning they are not making any strides or very little to no strides currently to become whatever that thing is. If, in reverse or on the opposite side of the spectrum, if they are like, this is where I'm going, this is where I'm headed, this is what I'm trying to become, this is what I'm hoping to become, >> Right.

[00:03:27]>> and they're making active steps to get there, then that is your dating potential in a sense, but they're actually, they have a vision for it, they desire it, which is important. They have to have their own desire for it, and they're actually, through action steps, moving towards it.

[00:03:44]>> Right, so >> That's there's very different things there.

[00:03:46]>> Okay, so you've been dating for 4 months, you notice that your partner is is pretty emotionally immature in this area. Maybe it comes to conflict, they're super avoidant, they do not do hard conversation, they run for the door as soon as you say, "Hey, we need to talk." Or maybe they just lose their cool. They're very, very flagrant, flippant, and big and boisterous, and you know, are pretty emotionally immature. They don't know how to regulate and calm their emotions to have a So, what's the difference there if I'm looking at them between dating for potential versus I know it's not going to work.

[00:04:19]>> Maybe they haven't had conflict in the past, and so very significantly in relationships, so it's coming up and new sides in themselves are being revealed.

[00:04:27]>> Mhm.

[00:04:28]>> If you bring it up to them in a kind way, not in a way that puts them on the defense, but in a kind and loving way, and they humbly say, "Hey, you know, you bring up some good points. I've noticed that within myself, and you know, I really want to look at how I'm doing conflict, and maybe some of my responses, and I want to take that seriously, and I really want to grow in this area." A, that's a great step. Step number one. Step number two is >> can acknowledge it at the very least.

[00:04:57]>> that something is a problem, that they do want to change.

[00:04:59]>> They're humble enough to admit it.

[00:05:01]>> Second step is, do they actually take any steps towards that?

[00:05:05]>> Right, the most important part.

[00:05:06]>> Right, the most important part.

[00:05:07]>> demonstrate any change? Like positive change in that department.

[00:05:14]>> Yeah.

[00:05:14]>> And I think the thing that is pretty surprising is one, the first step doesn't even really happen that much, but if it does in the the majority of cases is they really don't change that much. Like [snorts] >> all.

[00:05:28]>> Yeah, then you got to walk away.

[00:05:30]>> Right, because and I like this analogy, put their words on mute and then just look at their actions over a month or two. I really like this. Kate, you I mean, if I'm trying to lose weight and I come to you saying, "Hey, I'm very serious. I know I have a little bit extra pounds left over from COVID, Okay, I would like to lose these love handles.

[00:05:50]My goal is to lose 10 pounds in two months. I you know, you gave me that feedback. I I acknowledge it. I accepted it. I'm going to do this. Well, two months from now all you really need to do is evaluate me on the scale and you'll know.

[00:06:05]>> Right.

[00:06:05]>> Right. My actions will define my change and everything I've committed and done.

[00:06:10]Now, a lot of times what happens is I get on that scale and I say, "Kate, you just don't understand. I I tried to book with my therapist. I tried to talk to her. I I was going to read this book.

[00:06:20]I ordered this. And hey, not only did I not lose 10 pounds, I maybe even gained a couple, but all I have is a defense >> Yes.

[00:06:28]>> of words and we buy that.

[00:06:31]>> Yeah, or we're like or you you see how important it really is to them because maybe it's not that big of a deal that at the end of the day it's more of a big deal to you than it is to them.

[00:06:42]>> Right. Their actions are their testimony. Their actions >> Right.

[00:06:45]>> tell you everything. Put their life on mute. Don't listen to a word. I don't mean that their words don't matter. I'm just saying that actions do matter after those comments after those commitments are made after the promises are made.

[00:06:55]And my theory is that the majority of relationships we know and see today are in this like kind of land of lots of promises and commitments with not a lot of action and then a lot of just waiting waiting waiting and hoping.

[00:07:08]>> Well, I have another reason why people stay too long. I think people mistake emotional investment for staying with somebody. They're like, "This is I've invested a lot emotionally, so I kind of need to stay at this point." The more time, energy, prayer, people that this person has met, the more memories, the more you feel like, "Okay, I have to keep going." And there it's psychologist actually call this the sunk cost fallacy.

[00:07:34]Sunk cost fallacy.

[00:07:35]>> This is economics 101.

[00:07:37]>> Yeah, so instead of asking like, "Is this relationship really healthy for me?"

[00:07:42]you start asking yourself or saying to yourself like I can't let all this time go to waste, right? Like this there's got to be some sort of meeting for this relationship. There's got to be something good that could come of this.

[00:07:57]>> Right.

[00:07:57]>> Right?

[00:07:58]>> No, this is by and far and away I think the one that hurts the most because it's a terrible lie.

[00:08:04]It's such a terrible lie holding us back. I mean, a sunk cost is incredibly important to understand, right? The the economics example that they use is the buffet.

[00:08:12]>> Mhm.

[00:08:12]>> Right? You spend $20 to go to a buffet.

[00:08:15]>> Yeah.

[00:08:16]>> And if you're like me, you say something along the lines of oh, I'm going to get every single dollar out of this buffet.

[00:08:22]They're going to lose money. They're going to lose money on me. They're going to regret this, okay?

[00:08:27]>> Yeah.

[00:08:27]>> And but what microeconomics and what wisdom says is hey, that money is gone whether you eat one piece of sushi or a hundred.

[00:08:38]>> Yeah.

[00:08:38]>> But you should not dictate your behavior on how much you spent. You should genuinely ask yourself it do I want to eat four pieces of sushi or five? Like the idea of what you spent should not play a a role and a factor into the decision. I think in dating relationship in particular >> Yes, but how much you move forward.

[00:09:00]>> Exactly because one other thing that happens too is this and I I have a friend going through this. What if it's not even a good relationship? So you have this sunk cost fallacy of all this time and equity you spent. And my question was was it even a good relationship?

[00:09:13]>> Yeah, you you're like why are you in it?

[00:09:15]>> one. So not only is it a sunk cost, it's a sunk cost and a terrible one, right?

[00:09:19]So why are you why are you holding that as, you know, any kind of weight in the decision that you're making?

[00:09:29]>> I want to go to the third reason that people I think stay really long with people or or not even really long, sometimes just longer than they should. And this can happen in longer-term relationships, but also especially in early stages of dating, and it's this: Intermittent reinforcement creates attachment. Okay?

[00:09:49]So, the most addictive reward system is actually not consistent.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah, it's a slot machine.

[00:09:56]>> when things are unpredictable, but you get rewarded unpredictably, it becomes addicting. Just like in Vegas, right?

[00:10:02]Why everyone gets addicted to gambling, your brain just can't help it. You lose, lose, lose, and then you hit one. That where you win, and you're like, "I got to try again. I got to keep going."

[00:10:13]>> the risk, the reward, it's it's thrilling.

[00:10:16]>> thrilling. So, this happens so much in dating, especially early stages. They text you, they disappear, then they come back.

[00:10:24]And they say all these wonderful things.

[00:10:26]Maybe you go on a great date, then they pull away.

[00:10:29]Then they reach out and they compliment you and say, "I thinking about you."

[00:10:33]And then you have a a good conversation over text, then they're distant. Then they call you one day and they're like, "Oh, I I you know, I I went to this really cool place. I want to take you there sometime." A false promise of something in the future.

[00:10:45]>> You sound like you're speaking from a personal experience.

[00:10:49]>> [laughter] >> So, you were the one reaching out to all these guys saying >> no.

[00:10:53]And it causes so much confusion because you just keep hoping as what Matthew Hussey calls the MPI guy, the minimal possible investment. It's just a little bit to hook you in and keep you going.

[00:11:06]>> Yeah.

[00:11:07]>> And the moment you stop kind of giving up giving hope into them and start losing hope is the moment they come back.

[00:11:14]>> Wait, real quick. If they got a MPI guy, they got this person, this girl, what should they do? Really quick and we'll keep going.

[00:11:21]>> Cut things off.

[00:11:23]>> Wow.

[00:11:23]>> Immediately.

[00:11:24]>> Are they allowed to do that?

[00:11:25]>> You could also call them out gently first being like, "Hey, you know, I really am a a of consistent communication, and it's something I look for in when I'm dating someone.

[00:11:36]I have noticed when it comes to talking to you, things are kind of up and down, and not as consistent, and that's totally fine if that's where you're at, but if if that's what it's going to be moving forward, then I'm going to have to walk away.

[00:11:51]>> They They are allowed to say that.

[00:11:52]>> Oh, absolutely.

[00:11:53]>> Let's go. I love it.

[00:11:55]>> You should, and then if they are like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry. I've been so busy." and give you a promise that they're going to be more consistent, put their action their words on mute and watch their actions.

[00:12:04]>> go.

[00:12:05]>> 100%.

[00:12:05]>> Okay, what what else? Why do we stay?

[00:12:08]Cuz there's a few reasons.

[00:12:10]>> I think this next one is big. We confuse empathy with responsibility, and I see this a lot with both genders, but especially Christian women. You get to know this person's story. You get to know what they have been through, their childhood wounds, their the divorce they went through, the anxiety they have, why commitment is so hard for them, if they're especially avoidant attachment.

[00:12:33]>> Yeah.

[00:12:34]>> And because you now understand them, and you have so much compassion, you start feeling bad for them and feeling responsible for them, codependency, [clears throat] and you're like, "Oh, but I get why they're this way. I have so much compassion for why they're this way that it leads me to basically subjecting myself to mistreatment.

[00:12:55]>> Yeah, it's the baby bird, you know.

[00:12:57]Uh you you found the baby.

[00:12:59]>> we you want to fix them, but you're also like, "Oh, I'm okay with you treating me this way because I know that you are just deeply pained."

[00:13:08]>> Right. Well, there's a lot there by on your identity, your self-worth, what you'll tolerate. I think I love that you're compassionate. Yeah, I will >> But compassion can shoot us in the foot if we don't have proper boundaries.

[00:13:20]>> For sure. Well, you can say something like this, "It's totally understandable, and you have a very good reason for acting the way that you are, however, it's still not okay.

[00:13:29]>> Yeah.

[00:13:30]>> And there has to be that accountability and standard. You know, you're looking for a partner, not a project.

[00:13:35]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:36]>> there's a big difference in those two things. You know, you're looking for someone that you want to pastor with, not that you want to pastor them.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah, it's totally.

[00:13:45]>> And so, uh, there's one more reason I think and I you missed it. I'm so surprised.

[00:13:50]>> What is it?

[00:13:50]>> It's the big dog, the big daddy.

[00:13:52]>> What?

[00:13:53]>> Because people are scared.

[00:13:55]>> They're scared of the alternative.

[00:13:57]>> They're scared of being Yes.

[00:14:00]>> And they're like, let me take what I can get.

[00:14:03]>> Yeah, you know, they they really don't want to go back out and try again.

[00:14:08]And then >> think there's a reverse side of what you're saying, too. I think it's not only they're scared to be alone, but if they get someone that's seemingly great on paper, but then maybe isn't so great when it comes down to it, they're like, well, but I like the person that's great on paper and I like the attractive person. I like the person that is a leader of the Bible study group. Behind the scenes, they're treating me kind of bad, but outwardly, I like that the idea of me being with this person.

[00:14:37]>> respected and >> Yeah, like this this is me at least. I used to I dated the guy I was in a relationship with before you. I dated him because I knew every girl wanted to be with him.

[00:14:48]>> Right, but >> And I got excited by that idea even though I knew I shouldn't have probably dated him.

[00:14:54]>> And you stayed longer in a relationship because everyone thought it was, you know, he was >> me value to be with him.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:02]Well, there I definitely think fear of just the whole journey after is probably the one of the biggest reasons holding us back. I would just argue that what you're in right now is way worse >> Yeah.

[00:15:13]>> than being alone.

[00:15:15]What you What you're in right now is way worse than being vulnerable and putting yourself out there and having to try again.

[00:15:20]>> Reminds me of the Gary Thomas quote that says, "Would you rather be in a 50-year marriage where you are so unhappy almost every day of that marriage, or would you rather be married for 45 years very, very happy, thriving, healthy marriage? The difference is waiting 5 more years."

[00:15:37]>> Right. Yeah, it's a great question.

[00:15:44]What should they be asking themselves?

[00:15:46]If someone's listening to this, or maybe they're listening I I definitely find on behalf of a friend, what questions should they be asking themselves about should I stay or should I go? Right?

[00:15:55]>> or should I go?

[00:15:56]>> Yeah.

[00:15:57]>> Here's four questions. Make it very practical. First question, "Am I becoming more Christ-like, or is this relationship actually moving me away from the Lord?"

[00:16:06]>> Right. And and and clarify. Sometimes they're put in situations with terrible, abusive people, and we're definitely becoming more Christ-like, right? Cuz it's really working on our patience, our character, our mercy, and grace. That's not what we mean, right? Are they encouraging you, sharpening you, building you, edifying you, right? And to becoming more Christ-like, or are you becoming more Christ-like [laughter] because of not good reasons, right?

[00:16:34]>> Right.

[00:16:34]>> Yeah.

[00:16:35]>> Second question is, "Has anything actually changed with the person, or are you hooked on potential, or just emotionally very invested?"

[00:16:43]>> Such a good question. And then and if nothing's changed over the course of months, right?

[00:16:49]I mean, you you got to I mean, at some point >> Yep.

[00:16:52]>> they're not changing and growing.

[00:16:54]>> progress, like not just lip service.

[00:16:56]>> Because one really big thing is if they're not changing and growing in dating a relationship where you actually have a lot of leverage, there's a huge incentive to change, which is right, to date you, marry you. What do you think is going to happen when you get married?

[00:17:09]>> Yeah. 100%.

[00:17:11]>> They didn't change or grow much when we were dating. They're You didn't Dude, you're start growing and changing when you're married?

[00:17:18]>> Yeah.

[00:17:19]>> Totally.

[00:17:19]>> Like no, seriously think about it.

[00:17:21]>> Yeah.

[00:17:21]>> They have the most reason to change when you're dating and in relationship engaged and if they can't do it then, they are a hundred times >> less likely >> less likely to to do it in marriage.

[00:17:32]>> For sure. I like this next question.

[00:17:34]Third question is, if my best friend sat down with me and described this exact relationship to me, what would I tell them?

[00:17:43]>> Yeah, I love this one.

[00:17:44]>> Like would this be a relationship I encourage a friend of mine, a best friend to keep going in or would I express concern? Alert alert alert.

[00:17:54]>> Yeah.

[00:17:54]>> [laughter] >> Think about your future kids or if you have kids like would you would you be okay with your with your future daughter >> Mhm.

[00:18:02]>> signing up for this? Your future son, your mom, your dad, like your siblings.

[00:18:07]>> Yeah.

[00:18:07]>> Right? That's a great one.

[00:18:09]>> Last question is, is there really an us at all or am I entirely carrying the relationship?

[00:18:16]>> Yeah.

[00:18:16]>> Am I moving it forward? Am I the one taking the next step? Even at early stages of dating, am I one the one always suggesting the forward movement?

[00:18:24]>> I committing? Am I serving them? Am I loving them?

[00:18:27]>> Yes.

[00:18:28]>> Right? I guess that's the question of is it mutual?

[00:18:31]>> Yeah, is it mutual?

[00:18:32]>> Not not keeping score, right? Is it just mutual? Do both of you show up?

[00:18:37]>> Yeah.

[00:18:37]>> Do both of you lean in? Do both of you commit? Do both of you respond and outserve and outlove one another?

[00:18:42]>> Yeah, so good.

[00:18:43]If any of those answers are no >> Yeah, we got problems.

[00:18:49]>> or not healthy answers then >> Yeah.

[00:18:52]>> I think it's time to stop trying with the person that you're trying.

[00:18:56]>> Cuz those are all really big concerns.

[00:18:59]>> Yeah.

[00:19:00]>> Like if you're if you're one of those four, it's concerning. If you're two, three, four out of four, I mean >> Bye.

[00:19:08]>> [laughter] >> I'm sorry, but yeah, it it's just not a good healthy mature godly relationship.

[00:19:14]Godly mature healthy awesome relationship that that we're looking for like they go four for four. These are all pretty you know, I don't I don't want to say bare minimum, but they really are.

[00:19:27]>> Yes, they I mean the in reverse yeah, you can use these questions and say is this somebody I should maybe keep dating.

[00:19:33]>> Yeah, like it two guy two godly individuals who love God who are growing who are submitted to the Holy Spirit who are being discipled like they go four for four in these questions.

[00:19:42]>> Yeah.

[00:19:43]>> You know, like they they really do like they are slam dunk yeses really positive answers to all four of those.

[00:19:48]>> So so true.

[00:19:50]>> Okay, wow. So Kay >> of In the Gray and I needed this one when I was dating so many times. Stop trying with them. Stop accepting breadcrumbs.

[00:20:01]There's no forward movement. Don't demonize them, but just know like this is not it.

[00:20:05]>> Right, so in closing stop asking the question how long should I stay in this relationship and start asking the question what evidence do I have that this is growing and forming into a godly healthy mature awesome relationship that I love I would want for anybody else that I love and cherish and really is what I desire that glorifies God.

[00:20:25]>> Yeah, [music] amen.

[00:20:26]>> Amen.

[00:20:30]>> The Heart of Dating podcast is created [music] by Kate and JJ Tomlin. Shout out to our epic audio and video editor Scott Caro. We have an amazing Heart of Dating team who helps bring the show [music] to you each week. I want to shout out Blayna Gibson, our brand and community manager. We couldn't do it without them.

[00:20:47]Now if you guys have never ranked us or reviewed [music] us on iTunes or Spotify, would you consider doing that?

[00:20:52]It would mean so much because our podcast can get more [music] discovered and more people can learn how to better date as Christians. Don't we all want that? We launch our podcast each and every week on Wednesdays. So we'll see you next week.