When a Dying Christopher Hitchens RIPPED a Rabbi’s Afterlife Fairytales

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[00:00:00]You can be have any religion you want as long as you can keep it to yourself.

[00:00:04]But the moment I have to hear about it or you want it taught in my school to my kids or in the or or produced in the public square with taxpayers money or you object to anyone criticizing it, especially if you back that even with the hint of a tiny threat of violence, you have made in me a mortal enemy.

[00:00:26]>> We're going to have bases there. Let's stop saying that if you have religious zeal and passion, you're going to shove it down people's throats. It's a lie.

[00:00:33]It's an absolute lie.

[00:00:36]NOT only is it a lie, but it is it I it's character assassination because Christopher started this debate by saying that science is based on facts.

[00:00:45]Now, I want to see the facts about religious people in America who are violent >> on their part for complete control over the rest of the state by the Nazi party.

[00:00:52]What did it say on the belt buckle of every single member of the Nazi army?

[00:00:55]What did it say? God mitun. Do you want me to translate? It says God on our side in German. If you took your oath to the furer, how did it have to begin? I swear in the name of Almighty God, my undying feelalty to Adolf Fitler. I won't take it from you. I'm sorry. I don't want to spoil a relatively friendly evening either. Don't you dare bring this up again. I can take a lot.

[00:01:28]read any history of fascism in the 20th century and take out the word fascist from any history that's remotely objective including much written by Christian history and just put instead of the word fascist extreme Catholic you don't need to change another word to say this word secular is just getting history completely wrong to say it's atheist is deliberate conscious insult and I won't have it. So now you know how rude I can be.

[00:02:09]>> Soul death and the destruction of the soul.

[00:02:12]>> The soul. Yes.

[00:02:13]>> And and what is for you? What is the soul?

[00:02:17]>> It would be like saying it's like reducing love to sex if you wish.

[00:02:21]Um, you can do it. I mean, we've all tried often often after being, shall we say, disappointed. I love say why why did she, if it was a she, um, why did she give me such what is she put a wag, a bone, a hank of hair, a bunch of hormones? What the hell? What was what was all that about? You know, but you keep telling yourself, keep asking yourself, you won't come up with with the answer.

[00:02:50]This is I'm just putting it anecdotally.

[00:02:51]If you if you took out the word soul, if you took out the word evil, if you took out the word spirit, Markx can't Marks can't discuss religion without saying it's the spirit of a spiritless situation. If you describe an event or a or a city as soulless, everyone knows what you mean. It's somehow um necessary. We couldn't all all I can say that's as with the word numinous is that it's it's the it's the penumbra. It's what you can't quite see but we can't do without it especially since which I should have said earlier. I mean the great the great delight of being alive now is that we do know though we know less and less we know less and less about more and more at least and we are on the verge of extraordinary discoveries both about our own nature and interior from the genome and other things and about the cosmos and we but we know incredibly little about galaxy formation about how many universes there might be um about the there are people like my my friend and colleague in the atheist movement Sam Harris a great neurologist who think the NDE near-death experience stuff may be all may be all nonsense not unlike spiritualism but the possibility of consciousness in some sense independent of the physical brain is worth examining and there's work being done in it I if he's interested in that then so am I >> so if that were possible then you that would be something that would live on past the body >> um well I think there would need to be bodies still around to so to speak transmit it. I don't think it's going to it's not going to it's not going to be in um a stratosphere or it's not the word I'm looking for stratosphere. Um uh it's not going to be in some astral plane that these things are resolved. Uh one will need to have minds made of meat in order to process them, print them. Uh there have to be events like this where they can be debated.

[00:04:50]Um but yes there there will be we live on the verge of extraordinary discovery.

[00:04:56]>> So so you would >> but I don't think they will lead to a supernatural it will not lead to our discovering a supernatural plane of which that you unaware.

[00:05:05]>> But if it's not something within nature and if it's not something material it would by definition be supernatural.

[00:05:10]Maybe not religious but it would be supernatural.

[00:05:16]Well, the religious people have tended in the past because they look here's the great contradiction of being religious and she really exemplified it in a very amable way this evening.

[00:05:25]If you if you are a person of faith then that's what you are a person of especially in Christianity and Islam.

[00:05:32]It's the strength of your faith that is is your merit. It's your willingness to believe and to risk your life for it no matter what. Do you affirm it? Yes, I do. Um how does it go? They say it five times a day. There is no God but God.

[00:05:45]and Allah is his messenger. You notice the first four words are exactly right.

[00:05:49]>> Muhammad is >> Yeah. Well, sorry. And Muhammad, there is no God, but God and and Muhammad is his messenger. The first four words are exactly right. There is no God. So, five times a day, millions of people around the world unknowingly speak four words of complete truth, progress of a kind. But it's the faith that is the merit. What do they want evidence for? They're never going to get any evidence for that. The merit is the faith. As soon as they say, "Ah, and by the way, it is possible to make night journeys to Jerusalem on a horse, the faith shrivels."

[00:06:23]They shriveled. And the and Christianity has given itself away repeatedly on this. It now says, "Ah, we didn't used to think there was a big bang, but but now we realize there was one." Reads a lot like Genesis when you read it backwards.

[00:06:38]Plagiarism, pure and simple. They do it all the time. But then now they're now they're pimping off the back of medical science and doing extraordinary moments in in surgery and surgical intervention to do the near-death experience racket.

[00:06:51]This is a familiar thing. All these things will yield to properly controlled scientific investigation. But the things that we know already are miraculous enough.

[00:07:01]>> Science is not infallible either. No. My husband when he started medical school the first day they said his professor stood in front of him and he said I just want you to know that everything you learn these four years by the time you finish your practice half of it will be proven untrue the problem is you just don't know which half surely >> can I just you want to put a question >> yeah it's worth uh addressing some of the points that that uh Christopher made you know many here I'm sure are familiar with the story Socrates was told by the oracle of deli that he was the wisest man in Greece And when he heard it, he chuckled and he said, "If that is so, it is because I am the only one who knows what he doesn't know." And I think there used to be a certain humility to scientific investigation where theories were postulated to explain evidence, to explain facts. That is a scientific method. And we all know that it works.

[00:07:51]It works in medicine. It works with your iPhone. It works with all your appliances. And there's great truth to science. There's an arrogance that's developing in science that I think should be a little bit worrisome.

[00:08:03]Because what I said in that debate with Dawkins is my monities considered the greatest Jewish thinker of all time who was uh strongly influenced by Aristotle and by and he was a great doctor of course uh court physician to to Sultan Salahaldin Saladin he said Mimisha Omu you must embrace the truth regardless of its source and Judaism I can't speak for other religions but Judaism is a religion based on this search for truth now Lisa just said that science does change its theories and sometimes with with great frequency. When my monities was alive, the most important scientific theory of the time was the arisatilian theory of the eternity of matter. It sort of survived into modern science and the solid state theory. There was no belief that matter actually came into existence and because of that many Jews of the time wanted to reinterpret the book of Genesis to accommodate this eternity of matter. My man said, "I would do it if the facts could be proven by some infallible means to be true, but I believe the theory is flawed." And he subjected it to a scientific reputation in his great philosophical treatise written 900 years ago, The Guide to the Perplexed. The problem with the afterlife claim is simple. It starts with faith, then tries to borrow science when faith runs out of evidence.

[00:09:21]Near-death experiences feel powerful, but neuroscience can explain many of them through brain stress, oxygen loss, sleeplike dream states, and abnormal activity near death. That does not prove heaven. It proves the brain can create intense experiences under extreme conditions. Even the Bible admits the whole religion depends on one claim. If Christ was not raised, faith is useless and believers are still in sin. That is 1 Corinthians 15:17.

[00:09:51]So the burden is not on skeptics to disprove heaven. The burden is on religion to prove it and emotional stories are not proof.

[00:09:59]>> Of course later. And now Christopher is saying that that religion uh is uh plagiarizing science.

[00:10:07]Um we came up with the big bang theory after the solid state theory where all of existence the entire universe came into existence in an instant. Now is that the story of Genesis? I don't know.

[00:10:17]There are similarities. It's impressive that there are some similarities. I'm sure there are many discrepancies as well. But to say that we plagiarize it, come on. The entire ancient world believed in the eternity of matter. Um, other religions advocated the seven days and seven nights of Krishna that every that life was cyclical. Even you know that famous book, the gifts of the Jews points out that the one thing that the Jews definitely gave the world that was that could not have been plagiarized because it was so original was the idea of linear history as opposed to cyclical history. And of course, our calendar now is based entirely on linear history.

[00:10:50]There are many gifts of religion. To deny them all, I think is to deny the facts.

[00:10:56]Cardinal Walter Casper was very controversial today. I haven't even seen the whole story, but he said he's in charge of the Catholic Church's interfaith relations. He said that Britain was a third world country. He should not offend other nations. And he was rightly left off the the Pope's trip as a result. But I had a meeting with Cardinal Casper about four months ago at the Vatican. He seemed to me a man of humility and a man of openness. Very soft-spoken.

[00:11:19]Um, >> wonder how he got to be a cardinal.

[00:11:24]>> I'm sorry.

[00:11:25]>> I wonder how he got to be a cardinal with all those qualities.

[00:11:29]>> Oh, he he and the pope grew up in Germany together. I don't know. But he was uh gave us a lot of time. Um, but he said that Britain is beginning to show evidence of a certain virilent kind of atheism. You know, it's funny because I have I had a front row seat to this development. I started doing and might and in my arrogance, I might even legitimately claim to be one of the sources of origin for this modern um sequence of publishing events about great books on atheism. And I'll tell you why. Because Richard Dawkins, he will verify the story, was known to sort of not believe in God. He wasn't very outspoken against religion. Um and I asked him uh to do a debate on science versus religion and we did this massive debate and then we started doing them every single year. I think we had six in total. I moderated uh four or five, participated in two. Um the the dialogue was very friendly back then. It was very respectful. It didn't mean that Dawkins believed anything about religion. He didn't. But he didn't think that religious people were bad people. And he didn't think that religions had nothing to contribute.

[00:12:36]That's what we're hearing now. That it has nothing to contribute and that everything, as Christopher just said, is going to one day be open to scientific rational investigation. Really, does anybody really believe that? Do you think we will ever truly understand the infinity of the cosmos? We might, but right now there's no reason to believe we ever will. It's too vast. Humans are immortal. And that's an act of faith.

[00:12:59]That is an act of pure faith to say that we will one day understand.

[00:13:04]Christopher Hitchens has just said he has faith without any evidence that this will one day happen. On the contrary, the more we discover is the infinite decessible nature of man and science is actually showing us that and there's so many mysteries and they may one day unravel and reveal our secrets to the human mind. They may not. Any anyone here who is a who is absolutely atheistic agnostic is certain there is no God. You still have many beliefs.

[00:13:35]You probably believe that the world is going to get better. Why are we all so upset that America is declining? 64% of people in a CBS poll just said that America's in serious. Why are you upset?

[00:13:47]Historical inevitability predicted this.

[00:13:49]It is inevitable. America will fall.

[00:13:52]Period. You can elect the best president. You can have the best Congress. You can have you CAN ROOT OUT ALL political corruption. But history shows as Oxford's greatest historian who unfortunately was a little bit anti-semitic Arnold Toinby in the study of history there America will fall as every civilization beforehand so why are we doing all this why do we think it's not true it's not inevitable and there's no evidence to support any belief that it won't none all the evidence says we are doomed it's happened before it's called cyclical history and there's no way out no matter how much you want to identify read all of Gibbon about how Rome fell it's still inevitable because human beings are corrupt and yet we still believe that we can perfect.

[00:14:32]That's a belief. No evidence whatsoever.

[00:14:35]In that sense, I think that and let me conclude by saying in that sense I think that the religious ideas of the of linear history, our ability to make tomorrow better than today and give our children better lives than we ourselves had, that is a religious belief. And it doesn't make a difference if you don't believe in God because again it's unsupported by fact.

[00:14:55]If we were to take a scientific determinist view of life, it's quite quite gloomy and it's quite it's quite dark.

[00:15:01]The reason why I respect Christopher Hitchens amidst our some of our very serious disagreements and let me conclude by saying based on everything that I just said is that he's different to all the other atheists. Honestly, I've discovered this in debating them.

[00:15:13]You see, he has a genuine love for humanity. Richard Dawkins will go up and say, "I'm going to arrest the Pope because the Pope um allowed the uh uh molesting of children or as Christopher would call it, raping of children." I think you've used that in many of your essays.

[00:15:28]>> Rape and torture.

[00:15:29]>> Rape and torture. Okay, fair enough.

[00:15:32]Richard Dawkins suddenly loves children.

[00:15:34]He even wrote in his book that um that religious parents, I think, should be prosecuted or not prosecuted, they should be stopped from giving their children a religious ed education, etc. He suddenly cares about kids. Really?

[00:15:45]What's he done with kids? You mean only when the pope comes to Britain, he remembers his kids. But in other words, he doesn't love children in my opinion.

[00:15:51]He probably just hates religion. But Christopher Hitchens is very different.

[00:15:56]He has shown throughout his life an absolute dedication to the human family.

[00:16:02]He has been one of the most eloquent voices for human rights that there is. That's why I honor him because at the end of the day, I don't care what a person believes. I care what they do. And in that in this sense, this is a great debate, but it doesn't really matter because action is everything. Is a Barack Obama Muslim? He says he's a Christian. I believe him. But what if he were? Who cares? I don't care if he believes in the Starship Enterprise and speaks Cllingon as long as he's a good president, does, you know, if he has values that I can respect. If he stopped the genocide in the Sudan, if he spoke out strongly against a woman who may be stoned to death in Iran, I don't care if he believes in in in the rafters of the ceiling. What what does that bother me?

[00:16:41]I care what people do in that sense. I don't care what Christopher Hens believes or doesn't believe. He's a champion of human rights and we need more of them. I, you know, the essays of his that I've read, the essays of his that I've read, there is no more eloquent um a sailor of tyrants and dictators than Hitchens. And you're right about the Catholic Church or at least Pope Pius uh the 12th, Eugeneio Pachelli and Hitler. Of course, that was a bugaboo in our last debate. So, let me concede the point. Absolutely. Um Pest the 12th, Eugenio Pachelli, I believe, and I'm sorry to say this to all my Catholic brothers and sisters because they were they were phenomenal. Pope John the 23rd was one of the greatest men of the 20th century, I believe. But Eugenio Pachelli, I believe, was a criminal who never spoke out against the Holocaust even once. who allowed masses to be said when Hitler was died and indeed he signed the first concordet with uh with the Nazi Third Reich. Um but his predecessor Popius the 11th gave an encyclical against Hitler in 1937 that was read through all the churches. I think it was called meet Brener I don't speak German. Someone helped me Brenader Stoga with Bernie >> Bren Brener Dorg.

[00:17:56]>> Sorry >> Brennan Dorgga with mounting anxiety.

[00:17:58]>> Mounting anxiety. And then he of course wrote the encyclical that was going to publish in 1939 against the discrimination against Jews which when he died uh in mid 1939 was was squashed by pest the 12th. That's the reason why amidst when I met the pope Benedict I was there part of a conference as Jewish leaders who wanted to find good in pest the 12th and I had to explain to Cardinal Casper and everyone else that I met that I couldn't do that. You're absolutely right about that.

[00:18:20]>> Religion keeps trying to hide inside mystery. When science says we do not know yet, religion rushes in and says then God must be there. That is not truth. That is a gap in knowledge being used as a hiding place. The big bang does not prove Genesis. Genesis says the earth, plants, sun, moon, animals, and humans appear in an order that does not match modern cosmology, geology, or biology.

[00:18:48]Science changes because it corrects itself with evidence. Religion changes because it gets embarrassed by evidence.

[00:18:56]Even Ecclesiastes says, "The dead know nothing," which cuts against the whole afterlife sales pitch. If the Bible cannot even give one clear answer on death, heaven, creation, and history, then why should anyone treat it like the final word on reality?

[00:19:12]>> I'll move quickly. It's actually one for each of you. Um, Christopher, uh, it it seems to me that these positions are somewhat dated or the positioning is somewhat dated in the sense that many Americans, uh, in particular tend to pick and choose from different faith traditions or really have not much patience with religious orthodoxy, but pick and choose from different traditions to create an amalgam of a spiritual life. And do you have an objection to uh a life spent in good works um in which someone may be inspired by aspects of Hinduism or Buddhism or Judaism uh without being holding any feelalty to religious faith um if their felt perception is that a a spiritual uh reality motivates them. And then I have one for you quickly. Okay.

[00:20:03]Well, I'll ask him quickly and then I may need to scamper mid answer, but um the one for you is I'm perfectly prepared to believe the Jews are great, but if we're so great, why don't we proitize?

[00:20:14]>> Why do we why don't we >> why don't we proitize?

[00:20:18]>> Okay.

[00:20:19]>> All right. Well, Thomas Jefferson at one point writes to his nephew, I think it's Peter Carr, saying, "There will be a time when every young American of intelligence will be Unitarian." Seems stupid now. Unitarians are still around.

[00:20:31]They produce the Jefferson Bible which is the well snipped version that takes out the supernatural leaves you a very short book and and also snips out the immoral which makes it even more prunable.

[00:20:43]um and they believe as you know in one god maximum but actually Jefferson's prediction wasn't that far off among students I know and from the impression I get of the middle class press and media the general tendency is to a kind of cafeteria alakart religion selected from some kinds of eastern cult sometimes um from a few of the tender bits of the biatitudes from some from some of my monades perhaps and assembled in in a pain-free way. Um, that would fit at the Society for Ethical Culture or other places where they don't sing about it.

[00:21:23]And anodine as this is and rather tedious. Um, it doesn't like holy water, it if it doesn't do you any good, it still doesn't do you all that much harm.

[00:21:34]And it meets my test really, which is this. Though I do in fact know a bit about religion and other people's religions, I sort of have forced myself to find out what has been forced upon me. My test is this. I don't want to have to know what your religion is. I live in the United States of America.

[00:21:50]You can have any religion you want as long as you can keep it to yourself.

[00:21:55]But the moment I have to hear about it or you want it taught in my school to my kids or in the or or produced in the public sphere the taxpayers money or you object to anyone criticizing it, especially if you back that even with the hint of a tiny threat of violence, you've made in me a mortal enemy.

[00:22:17]And I'll keep my part of that pact if you will keep yours.

[00:22:28]So, by all means, the mush solution because it's all mush to begin with.

[00:22:45]to something that Christopher just said.

[00:22:47]Um Christopher seems to be saying that religion is harmful at worst and usually uh and at best as long as it's um stripped of any kind of uh passion then it should be allowed.

[00:23:04]Um, one of the greatest living historians who's British and I assume Christopher knows him is the historian Paul Johnson and he wrote the history of the American people. His argument throughout the book and he's one of the most readable historians and I got to know him when I was in England is that America's prosperity actually has to do with its religious zeal. That America, it was not by accident that this nation that was born 230 years ago rose to become the world's greatest power. not in modern times but in of all time the Roman Empire at its height did not field legions in 162 nations or have uh I'm not going to go into uh how they calculate this but um based on ancient times modern times our GDP by far would outdo the Roman Empire were brought to modern times he says it was because of its religious zeal he points out something interesting he even says look at the marketing of Coca-Cola it's the real thing manif words like manifest destiny. The argument can be made that because America is a very religious country in God we trust and all these things that's around us one nation under God that it had this belief in itself because belief was central to the fabric of the nation and by and large America was never guilty of religious wars of going and slaughtering people in the name of the Christian God which is predominant here in the United States. Um, on the contrary, there were 80 million born again Christians in America and they were largely the political base of George Bush and they supported wars to remove tyrants when many people who were not people of faith did not support those wars by and large. And you might say till today I think the war in Iraq was a big mistake. But remember this was a war to remove a killer and we didn't fight it well and we made a lot of mistakes and too many people died and too much money was wasted. But we removed this killer. America's not into religious wars. We didn't then say, "Okay, Iraq's going to be a Christian nation." We're going to have bases there. Let's stop saying that if you have religious zeal and passion, you're going to shove it down people's throats.

[00:25:09]It's a lie. It's an absolute lie.

[00:25:13]NOT ONLY IS it a lie, but it IS IT I IT'S CHARACTER assassination because Christopher started this debate by saying that science is based on facts.

[00:25:22]Now, I want to see the facts about religious people in America who are violent.

[00:25:26]>> Just a second. Just a second.

[00:25:29]>> Calling America's success proof of religion is weak history. The Constitution does not say leaders must believe in God. It says the opposite. No religious test can ever be required for public office. Under God was added to the pledge in 1954 and in God we trust became the national motto in 1956.

[00:25:50]Those were cold war political moves, not founding principles. So when religion tries to take credit for American freedom, remember this. Freedom came from limiting church power, protecting disscent, and letting people criticize sacred ideas without fear. The moment religion demands public obedience, school influence, or taxpayer support, it stops being private belief and becomes political control.

[00:26:19]Now, to answer Naomi's um and you can bring exceptions, but they prove the rule. America is a peaceful nation that has never had this religious war, although it is the most religious country in the Western Hemisphere by far.

[00:26:37]Um Naomi's question briefly and she's gone. So, Aram, you'll please give her my answer. Okay. Uh why don't we proitize? You know, this is interesting.

[00:26:46]I think that one of the things that Christopher Hitchens and other atheists share with religious fundamentalists is a belief in uniformity over true diversity. In other words, Christopher cannot accept that anyone should be religious. It's subtitle of his book, How Religion Poisons Everything. Um Richard Dawkins, as I said, actually believes that religious parents ought to be he wrote either they should be prosecuted or should be denied teaching their children religion. You shouldn't even have freedom of choice in America how you educate your kids. Come on.

[00:27:14]That's not an extreme position. Okay, you can clap. You can clap if you believe that we ought to imprison parents for raising their kids the way they want to. You can live in that freaking world. But let me tell you, I will fight and die before I live in a country that either forces religion on people or forces them not to have religion. Okay? And I FIND IT ASTONISHING THAT PEOPLE WOULD CLAP when someone says that religious parents should be prosecuted for teaching their kids religion.

[00:27:45]So be it. It just proves my It just proves my point. The new fundamentalists are often the atheists. They are the ones who are intolerant.

[00:27:55]The reason why Judaism does not proitize is because we do not believe in uniformity.

[00:28:03]We believe that the world is enriched by difference. We don't believe we're right and you have to be like us to be right.

[00:28:10]I never told Christopher Hitchens once tonight that he should be a man of faith or that he's facing God as we all are.

[00:28:19]And to use your words on my radio show to use to use your words on my radio show, you said you were fa I said um you said you mentioned to Charlie Rose that you were dying and you said um well just more rapidly than others. And I hope that it's God willing, you know, not as rapidly. I hope that you have long life.

[00:28:34]In fact, I I'm going to end this debate with a little gesture uh to show how important that is to me. But but but but but Christopher, you know, when you come along and you say that no one should everyone should be like you because you're certain that we're everyone is wrong. That's uniformity. Everyone should be like this. I think a world that is all masculine is insufferable. If it's all feminine, it's insufferable. I actually believe in diversity and difference. There are going to be people who believe, people who don't believe. Religion for so many centuries made the mistake of saying, "No, no, if you don't believe, WE'RE GOING TO BURN you at the state cuz we're right." And now atheists are telling us, "If you're if you actually believe in something, you are a stupid, uneducated, primitive, backwards Neanderthal."

[00:29:19]And we're the smart ones. Come on. If that isn't condescending, then what is?

[00:29:22]We could live in that world where we just insult each other, abuse each other, put each other down. We can only find the bad in each other. It's been done. I won't do it. If I lose the debate, I won't do it. If I'm if I'm NEVER INVITED TO SPEAK AGAIN, I won't do it. I will not betray myself to be popular. I won't do it. I have beliefs and my belief is that we have something to learn from each other. I believe it to the core of my being. And that's why Jews don't proitize.

[00:29:52]Well, I don't know if I can come up to matchless courage in maintaining that there should be two sexes and two genders, but I admire him for setting the example of fortitude that I'll confine myself to the question of whether manifest destiny prevented religious war in the United States or not. Now, Paul Johnson, who I suspect you're having met at Oxford, by the way, >> I met him in London. We had amazing whiskey, is a extreme right-wing Catholic nut bag, actually, who I used to know quite well. With some merits as a historian, it's true, a bit of a potter, but if you quote him rightly on this, he's just wrong. um until the promulgation of the federal constitution.

[00:30:45]If you were in Maryland and you were not a Catholic, you couldn't hold office. If you were in Massachusetts and you were, you couldn't hold office. If you were in Georgia, you had to affirm the state religion, which was, interestingly enough, Protestantism, not further defined. Jews were subject to disabilities in various states. you go on as you everyone knows the story of course the the the 13 colonies would have fallen apart and on a religious basis too if it wasn't for the secular work of the two giants of the subject Thomas Jefferson and James Madison who first brought about the Virginia statute on religious freedom they said no we first we begin by destroying the established church every country that ever grows up into anything like Mature democracy has to do this. Sometimes it's a process of terrible violence as in France or Russia. Sometimes it's not so bad as in the English civil war, but any country seeking maturity has to break the established church. That was easy when it was just the Anglican Episcopalians. It's gone. Abolished.

[00:31:52]Okay, says Virginia. Now what? Patrick Henry says, why don't we subsidize instead all churches?

[00:31:58]That was quite a popular thought.

[00:32:00]Everyone pays tithes to keep all faiths going or only one or two. No, says Jefferson. No, says Madison. We're going to propose something completely new. No one has to support any church of any kind at all. You want a church? Build it yourself. This is the first time in history. It still is because the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom becomes the basis of the First Amendment to our Constitution. The first time ever that a country has announced itself to be secular where the only mention of God in its constitution except for the very very preamble is and all of religion is showing how and where it must be and is limited in the public square only mentioned in order to be constrained because they knew its horrible power.

[00:32:49]Have we been true then to this? which totally negates Johnson's view. If you Madison thought you shouldn't even have uh chaplain in the armed forces, neither by the way do I. Not at taxpayers expense, nor opening the prayers of Congress or proceedings every day.

[00:33:03]Flatout unconstitutional. We haven't been true to this document. But it's because of that, not of manifest destiny, that we've been spared religious war. Anyway, we weren't spared religious war. The missionaries went far and wide to convert the Indian tribes.

[00:33:18]The Indian tribes fought against each other as far away as Oregon as Catholic and Protestant, egged on by different kinds of missionaries. It speeded the destruction of Native America. The American Civil War, one of the worst wars ever fought, was fought over whether Christianity could or could not justify the continuation of slavery and was by its great abolisher Lincoln denounced as a war between two kinds of Christian. William McKinley announcing American expansionism and imperialism in the invasion of the Philippines said, "We sent our army and navy to the Philippines to Christianize the Filipinos who he didn't know or maybe did have been Catholic for three centuries."

[00:33:59]Well, it's an interesting question from a Protestant like McKinley. may not have thought that they counted as Christian or he may simply not have known that they're called the Philippines for a reason that another bloody Christian imperial power had decided to name millions of people after one of its bloodstained Catholic kings comes to the same thing. No, not exactly. To say we're exempt from religious warfare in this country is nonsense. And then finally to join the first world war.

[00:34:26]>> The atheists are the real extremists.

[00:34:29]Line is a dodge. Criticizing religion is not the same as banning religion. No serious skeptic needs the state to arrest believers. We need the state to stop giving religion special protection, public money, and classroom power.

[00:34:44]America avoided religious civil collapse because the founders limited religion and government. Article 6 says no religious test for office. Virginia's religious freedom law said no person should be forced to support any church.

[00:34:58]That is the point religion keeps running from. The safest society is not one ruled by priests, pastors or prophets.

[00:35:06]It is one where belief survives only by persuasion, not by law.

[00:35:13]The the pious Christian Woodro Wilson takes us into a war. Every contending party in Europe is led by its king emperor who is head of his local church from Russia to Britain. The most destructive war in human history and the one that curtain raises fascism.

[00:35:27]Stalinism and the era of the totalitarianism of totalitarianism. No, let nobody say we've been exempt, but let it be understood that it is our right to be exempt from it and that every time you hear a religious demagogue open his or her mouth, you have the right to say they're being anti-American and that that their right to do this uh is in conflict with the law. Not always, but sometimes. Utah was told it couldn't be in the union unless it gave up plural marriage and what amounts to the same incest and rape and trading of children.

[00:36:01]The selling of daughters to uncles, dirty old uncles as wives. That's what plural marriage really means, incest and rape. And it still carried on with insufficient police attention in some parts of Utah and Nevada to this day, as the Reverend Jeffs can show you. No, we said to the Mormons, you're out of the Union and the army's coming if you want to practice this religion. Of course, certain things should be illegal, especially as they as they uh bear upon the child. Is there anyone in this hall who thinks that religion justifies the mutilation of a child's genitals?

[00:36:33]Is there good? Well, wouldn't you like a law that said that non-elective surgery on the private parts of a child should be enacted? Isn't it time?

[00:36:47]What what a shander. What a shame. What a disgrace that we still haven't got this far. We can't prevent in the name of God, in the name of faith, gentle mutilation in our country. And we complacently sit here as if religion was no threat to us. Huh? You see what you see what a long job civilization has uh taming uh taming faith and making it finally acceptable to the point where you and I can talk about it this way. But it took a long time. We have no right to forget what religion was like before its fangs were drawn as I started by saying. Thank you.

[00:37:30]>> Uh thank you very much Professor Hitchens and Rabbi Baut. Uh you both speak with an eloquence at its highest pitch. I have just two quick quick two quick bra very brief questions. One for Rab Mate and one for Professor Hitchens.

[00:37:45]Uh, Professor Hitchens is wondering if I could speak to you.

[00:37:47]>> Adjunct Professor Hitchens.

[00:37:49]>> Excuse me.

[00:37:50]>> Adjunct visiting professor.

[00:37:52]>> Thank you. Um, adjunct visiting professor Hitchens. I was wondering if I could speak to you um after for possibly you would uh come and speak at Yeshiva University later on. and Rabbi Baut in one of Professor Hitchens or adjunct professor Hitchens um >> visiting professor >> adjunct visiting professor Hitchens scripts um he sardonically refers to the Rambam's quote of Afalamea that you know though he may tarry the how the Messiah may tar the Messiah may tar I was wondering how you would reply or respond or interpret that halah in safer.

[00:38:33]>> I think I think we all believe that the perfection of humanity, society, our political system, our economic system, uh, economic inequality is something that tries. It takes a long darn time.

[00:38:45]And I don't think, and that's what we're speaking about. Messianism is about, uh, raising humanity to a more perfect state, society to a more perfect state.

[00:38:53]Uh, it's a very long drawn out process.

[00:38:55]You know, I find it astonishing that in the year 2010, only 60% of the world's countries are democracies. uh we all thought that the end of the uh Soviet Union would uh preage the world of democracy but that's not what's happening. It is it is a long drawn out process. Let me also just say uh when uh professor Hitchens Goodbye Paul thank you so much for coming. God bless you.

[00:39:15]when uh when when professor how I'm saying it when when when Christopher Hitchens adjunct visiting professor of god denial studies at our organization um when he said that about general mut mutilation first of all I was I was squirming over here uh I'm just hoping I'm not mutilated um you know he said at the beginning of of of the debate that we this discussion debate that we have to follow the evidence you can't just call it genital mutilation um When science is now saying that the best way to guarantee the end of the spread of AIDS in Africa is through circumcision. And now African countries are trying to get people to circumcise themselves and mutilate themselves so that they stop the spread of AIDS. That is a scientific fact. Um I didn't make that up. I was even surprised to read it. It's now being practiced all over Africa trying to get men to circumcise themselves, circumcise their sons so that AIDS does not spread.

[00:40:14]um female genital mutilation, which makes it and I I know, you know, I've written a few books about sexuality. Of course, when you remove a woman's clitoris and she can no longer feel sexual pleasure, that's a denial of of the beauty of sexuality. And sex is a beautiful thing, not for procreation, but because of the pleasurable experiences that two people can have that draw them closer and wash them away in a in a in a sea of positive emotion that transforms their their their relationship. Uh but but but circumcision has not shown that that does that to boys and there are other studies that would but the AIDS thing has always impressed me and I was wondering what Christopher had to say about it.

[00:40:52]>> Sure. The spread of AIDS >> Jewish men with AIDS come >> no there's been all these important studies about it from the World Health Organization.

[00:40:59]>> If there are doctors here know more about it you should even two very simple replies to that. One is from the Rambam minorities himself who says that the point of circumcision is to try and diminish the turbulence of the relevant member um and to blunt it as far as possible while making it compatible with procreation. That's explicitly given as the reason. It's also why he says it must be done to a child because someone older might be too aware of the pain and discomfort and loss of sensation and not do it. Now if you want to say we'll practice this on the people of Africa instead.

[00:41:34]So they'll not get AIDS. Well, lots of luck. But that's not what the recommendation is. And any grown person or person of sexual maturity in Africa who wants to do that may do it. But I am not going to say, and I'm shocked to hear anyone appear to disagree, that it would be for me to take an African baby on my knee and remove and strip away its foreskin and prepuse on the off chance it might later be a sexual promiscuous person. This is monstrous. It's like eugenics. It's like genetic engineering.

[00:42:06]We have no right and we've no right to overlook what the true motive is. Same for male as for female to carry on religion's enduring war against sex there. By the way, yes, I will come.

[00:42:20]Yes, I will come and talk at the yeshiva if I'm spared.

[00:42:24]>> God willing.

[00:42:25]>> And if you can >> That means we're just going to pray harder. But uh Okay.

[00:42:27]>> And if you can raise my price.

[00:42:30]>> Hitch, you look great and keep it up.

[00:42:32]And we I think we all agree with the rabbi. We hope you're around for a very long time to come. Thank you very much for tonight.

[00:42:37]>> Thank you.

[00:42:37]>> Religion loves to dress control up as tradition, but tradition does not give adults ownership over a child's body.

[00:42:44]The medical argument here is being used as cover. Yes, voluntary adult circumcision can reduce female to male HIV transmission by about 60% in high-risisk regions. That does not justify cutting a baby who cannot consent. Adults can choose medical procedures for themselves. Infants cannot weigh risks, benefits, sexuality, pain, or permanent body changes. That is the moral failure religion keeps defending. It takes a child, marks the body, calls it sacred, then demands applause. A free society should protect children first and rituals second.

[00:43:27]But but you've you've you've warned us not to spare you and so uh I want to kind of uh press you a little bit on something you said. I'm very interested in hearing the rabbi's opinion as well.

[00:43:36]You mentioned uh Augino Pachelli Pope Pius the 12th. I think everyone's uh familiar with him and so forth. You also mentioned that you just met Benedict the 16th who just landed in uh Hitch's uh home country I guess earlier today. And uh Hitch, I've heard you make this point before uh and you did it tonight again where you mentioned that he was a member of Hitler's youth, but isn't isn't it true that he was mandatorily conscripted into that, that he deserted from the army as soon as he possibly could, that his father and mother opposed the Nazi regime, and that he had actually had a cousin with Down syndrome who was killed by the Nazis. So, is it unfair for you to sort of slander him as a member of Hitler's youth in light of that? And Rabbi, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think of that. Well, no, it's not because um it's I won't be told by anyone who was a member that my beliefs are national socialist. That was my original point. Second, in his memoir, which I've read, um very slender little memoir, he does mention being conscripted into the Nazi army and says you couldn't get away from it. That's what every single German has always said. There was nothing you could do. You had to play along. We have the examples of many many very brave including many brave atheist Germans to give that the lie. Yes, you could get out of it. There were all kinds of ways you could. But let's suppose for the military service he wasn't able to. He doesn't happen to mention that he was ever in the Hitler Youth. He didn't come up with the excuse that you had to do that too till it was pointed out to him and by historical archists that he had done that as well. Wouldn't you rather it have been the other way round that he'd first said he'd done it and then said he had to rather than being found out to have done it and then said he had no choice. And if that's the level of his morality and his would compromise with evil, then what's he doing? I don't care about him as an individual. What's he doing giving moral lectures to everybody else?

[00:45:24]He falls below the average standard of the German uh citizen in who in their majority never voted for the third Reich though they were ordered by the Catholic center party in the Reichdike to make the monstrous leader of that party into the chancellor of the German Republic.

[00:45:44]This record is very plain. This record is very plain. The Catholic Church comes before us as an organization that where Nazism is discussed has only just begun to apologize for its role, its disgusting beurded role, and will never be able to apologize enough as long as the memory of that atrocity remains real to us.

[00:46:10]Oh, can I from these people from these people, excuse me, I will take no lectures in morality ever on any terms on any subject.

[00:46:18]>> Enough comment.

[00:46:19]>> Can I just say um uh just because we're over time, we're going to go to 9:30.

[00:46:23]So, please don't think this is infinitum. Um 6 minutes and that'll be it. Okay. So, let's make the questions re much quicker, please.

[00:46:29]>> I'll be quick.

[00:46:29]>> Hello, Scott.

[00:46:30]>> Hi.

[00:46:31]>> Hey, Scotty.

[00:46:31]>> Brotherly. Hey, Hitch. Um I wanted to uh I want to You said it. You said you're 100% against people forcing religion on people. Correct. Is it okay for parents to force it on their children? How can you teach children religion without forcing it on them? They have no they have no scientific defense yet? Um I'd like to know about that. And uh as far as the the Pope goes, if the Pope was atheist instead of Catholic, would you still say he's an honorable man despite the fact that he's that he's looking the other way on children being tortured?

[00:47:01]Finally, um I've been praying to I've been praying >> God. I I said we got six minutes.

[00:47:06]>> One last thing. I've been praying for 25 years to all the gods for WABC to hire a black host. What am I doing wrong? Am I kneeling the wrong way or what's going on? Anyway, thank you.

[00:47:18]>> Well, now now the people at WABC, uh my very dear friend Lori and uh all the others now know the Scott Pellegrino who torments WABC, right? Um but Scott has a lot of good in him. You got to dig deep. I'm kidding. Scott's a very good friend. He comes to our house for Shabas all the time and he torments me. Okay, very quickly. Come on, Scott.

[00:47:39]Let's get real. Parents are going to raise their children in their traditions. You're basically saying, "Don't raise your kids. I'm going to raise you, but I'm going to make sure that I don't subject you to any of my beliefs, any of my values." Let's let's not be absurd here. Um, in the same way that atheists are going to raise their kids with what they believe to be true, that's that's what upbringing is. And God willing, one day when you have children, and I look forward to bouncing them on my knee. You'll probably do the same thing. You probably won't say, "Um, little schmooly, because that's what you'll name one of your kids, Scott. Uh, I want you to go to synagogue even though there is no God." Um, you're going to raise him, you know, the way the way and as far as uh Benedict uh the 16th, that's what your question was specifically about Benedict 16th, but I want to be very fast. Look, I met the pope. I was there with the delegation.

[00:48:25]They tried to uh convince us about pest the 12th. They showed us documents. I was unconvinced. Um and I said so and I remained friendly with them. I agree with Hitchens uh with Christopher Hitchens completely on on the Catholic churches. But you can't blame the whole church. But yes, it was the leadership and it was pest the 12th. Um and he should not be beatified. He he should not be canonized. But Pope John the 23rd saved so many Jews during the Holocaust was a very outspoken and he's the one who convened Vatican 2. He was a great man. Um, you know, in religion there are great men and there are people who aren't.

[00:48:55]>> Should the president pop be against kitty torture?

[00:48:57]>> Of course he should. And he should be held accountable. And I'm not excusing that in the slightest. But as far No, no, no. I'm not excusing it in the slightest. Let me make that absolutely clear. When religion perpetrates atrocities and must take full responsibility and never whitewash its sins, period. Because that violates everything it believes in. And the great sin of the religious is hypocrisy. Okay.

[00:49:16]Um but let me just say as far as the Jewish community is concerned to answer that other questioner uh in 10 seconds, Jewish community is grateful to to Benedict the 16th for the overtures he's made to the community. He's visited three synagogues and his papacy which is only I think four years old now. That's a rarity among popes and he's really reached out and I consider him a friend to the Jewish community but that is unrelated to everything that happened with children. Thanks for coming Scott.

[00:49:38]>> This is our last question.

[00:49:39]>> Okay.

[00:49:40]>> Oh hi. Okay. Uh Christopher great to see you in person finally. It's real honor.

[00:49:44]Um wait what am I? chopped liver over here right now because listen my questions for you.

[00:49:49]>> Am I not here in person? Am I like an apparition or something?

[00:49:53]>> With you. Okay.

[00:49:54]>> Okay.

[00:49:54]>> So, um All right. So, I'm John.

[00:49:58]>> I've been uh I so I'm involved in the erotic arts uh for some years now.

[00:50:03]>> The erotic arts?

[00:50:04]>> Yes.

[00:50:05]>> I got an interview for a book. Okay. And um >> did they mutilate you as a child?

[00:50:09]>> I'm sorry.

[00:50:09]>> Were you mutilated on?

[00:50:11]>> Oh, so they didn't mutilate you?

[00:50:13]>> I guess so. But I still receive sexual pleasure quite okay. Um >> Oh, okay.

[00:50:18]>> So my thing is is that so I I have like a lot of sensitivity when it comes to when it comes to organizations and groups who are stifling sexual expression in America. Uh most of them seem to be Christian and Catholic based.

[00:50:32]Um I'm assuming if Islam had a greater foothold in America, I'd probably be hearing a lot from them as well. Um, but I don't really hear a lot from Jewish organizations when it comes to uh stifling sexual expression. And I'm wondering if I'm wrong there or am I on to something?

[00:50:49]>> Religion wants control over children before they can question anything. That is why parents are just passing down values is such a soft excuse. Teaching honesty, kindness, and courage is one thing. Teaching a child that hell, sin, priests, popes, and holy books own their mind is indoctrination.

[00:51:08]The United Nations recognizes that children have their own right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion, while parents are supposed to guide them as they grow. And when the Catholic Church lectures the world on morality, remember the record. A Pennsylvania grand jury found decades of child sexual abuse and cover up across six dasceses.

[00:51:28]That is not moral leadership. That is institutional rot hiding behind robes.

[00:51:34]>> Jews like sex.

[00:51:35]>> Okay.

[00:51:37]Thank you. I bet Catholics also like sex. And uh Lisa Oz is um a Christian, correct?

[00:51:45]>> Yes.

[00:51:46]>> Okay.

[00:51:49]And I I'm not going to speak for what you like or not.

[00:51:52]>> It depends who's defining it. I'm I'm also a member of a cult by someone else's definition, so that's why I hesitate.

[00:51:58]>> Oh, okay.

[00:51:58]>> I mean, I suppose it's possible to like sex without liking women.

[00:52:02]Um well in fact I suppose in theory it must be possible but but if you you see I'm identifying something essentially implausible or or potentially horrible.

[00:52:12]What I mean to say is this when I say religion is man-made. In other words, it shows every sign of being produced by a primate species that's half a chromosome away from chimpanzee.

[00:52:25]I don't just mean man-made in that sense. I mean malemade.

[00:52:30]It it's very noticeable especially of the monotheisms that they are run by and for men and founded by and for men. The Jewish prayer I don't have to tell you used to begin some the Orthodox one still does. Thank God for not making me a Jew, a gentile or or a woman.

[00:52:49]The um I don't need to labor to you what the Quran says about the place of women in religion and the disabilities laid upon women by Christianity are again too too numerous to mention. It's it's too obvious that the repression of of the female is is a a principle of monotheism uh for it to be overlooked. Doesn't mean that pleasure can't come from repression. Some people say it can >> try anything once, but it's um I think it's it's an unhealthy thing surely. And isn't it rather noticeable that the uh in debates even in this city on for example the rights of homosexuals that orthodox jewelry at least seems to take it as a particularly strong responsibility to oppose any manifestation of gay life. I don't know why that should be or what its scriptural authority for that is. I suppose it's probably Leviticus as with Christianity.

[00:53:44]>> Well, I'm an >> but it's but it's something you can't not notice if you're interested in the subject.

[00:53:49]>> I'm an Orthodox rabbi. This morning I was on Rosie O'Donnell's uh radio show organized by Terry Kaden who was one of >> That's going too far.

[00:53:59]>> And uh I have a gay Orthodox Jewish brother uh who's Orthodox and um and um I don't see that homosexuality is a huge issue. In other words, I know what the Bible says, but I always say to my brother, the Torah consists of 613 commandments.

[00:54:22]You have 611 that you want to keep.

[00:54:24]Okay, that that'll keep you busy. Uh I don't see it as some great emphasis that we put on the contrary. I I the Bible says that it's not good for man to be alone. Uh are you know sometimes your faith and your humanity you you feel in conflict. You do. And and as you see gay men and women who love each other and who are not alone and then you know that oh the Bible says X Y and Z about it, it's not an openandsh case that we simply say religion says that you can't be with this person and you have to be alone. I believe in grappling with our faith and it's it's it's not so simple and I think those who make it simple are those who are fundamentalists. Um and that's the problem. But to say that religion has nothing to say about relationships between people or that women are always subordinate and everything else. I mean the Talmud that I study tells me I have to respect my wife more than me. The Talmud that I study says the Bible that I read says that when when Abraham had a dispute with Sarah, God said you must listen to everything that Sarah tells you. And Jews have always seen there was a greater prophet than Abraham and he's the father of our faith.

[00:55:26]Um there are so many examples of men being in fact in fact the B our Torah says that women are are are wiser than men and I've seen that with my mother. I've seen that with my wife. The definition of uh you know the the Jewish apherism says the wise men and the clever man.

[00:55:41]The clever man can extricate himself from situations to which the wise man would never have gotten himself into.

[00:55:46]And had had I listened to my wife about half the things I did in my life that were controversial controversial or self- serving or just downright stupid uh I wouldn't have made mistakes. she was the wise person. So I don't see that women are are are necessarily subordinated and to the extent that certain things need to be adjusted in religion. Uh Christopher, that's why I welcome your criticisms. Um again, it comes down to and this is the final thing I'm going to say is that >> whether religion poisons everything, I think we all have something to learn from each other. And >> thank you again for attending tonight's event and we wish you a good evening.

[00:56:20]>> Thank you. Um thank you so much, Mike.

[00:56:23]Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please give me uh 30 seconds. We have a gift for Christopher Hitchens.

[00:56:29]>> Oh my god.

[00:56:29]>> Uh Philip Stein is one of the world's finest watches, but they produced a watch that has become the symbol of our turn Friday night into family night campaign. Maybe this is something Christopher that you might agree religion gave that is a good thing.

[00:56:43]Friday nights we simply have dinner with our families without television, without the internet, without noise and we try to focus on our kids. So this was a global initiative that we have. Dr. Mamemed Oz is a patron. um Gail King, Dr. Phil, and I was hoping that Christopher would agree to be one of the patrons as well. It's simply two uninterrupted hours for atheists and religious people alike to give to their kids. And you are a very loving father.

[00:57:05]You have three children. We talked about them at dinner. So, this is this beautiful watch. It's a gift from the Philipsstein Corporation. I hope that you really enjoy it.

[00:57:12]>> Oh, thank you.

[00:57:20]And finally, ladies and gentlemen, if you would all just join me, it is our hope, whatever you believe or don't believe, that you will just join us in a small toast. It's the night before Yamapipur, Judaism's holiest day, and I wanted to just toast uh for Christopher's health and well-being, the the famous Jewish toast, which is life.

[00:57:37]So, uh, >> okay.

[00:57:46]It's it's amazingly nice of you and thank you first for reminder of the passage of time. I mean it.

[00:57:54]And second for this very handsome gift and and a tip for everyone. You turn the bottle, not the cork. Okay. Like this.

[00:58:01]And then And then you say to life in any language.

[00:58:14]>> Shalom. Thank you.

[00:58:20]Religion always sounds softer when it is on defense. Suddenly it becomes complicated, symbolic and open to interpretation.

[00:58:29]But the texts are not gentle. Genesis says the husband will rule over the woman. First Timothy says a woman must not teach or have authority over a man.

[00:58:39]That is not equality. That is hierarchy written into sacred law. And when gay people ask for basic dignity, religious groups often reach for Leviticus before they reach for compassion.

[00:58:51]Modern society had to drag religion toward women's rights, sexual freedom, and samesex acceptance.

[00:58:58]So, no, religion does not deserve credit for human progress. It deserves credit for resisting it until resistance became embarrassing. So, after all of that, here's the real question. If religion needs science, secular law, and modern morality to clean up its worst ideas, why should anyone still treat it as the highest source of truth?

[00:59:20]Drop your thoughts in the comments.

[00:59:22]Like the video, subscribe, and if you want the full breakdown of this debate, go watch part one and part two on our