[LIVE] Diskusi Peringatan 28 Tahun Reformasi: Dari Reformasi ke Autokrasi?

本站添加: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]I think so.

[00:00:01]Okay, good afternoon to all my friends, both those who joined the resonance and those who monitor the ICW YouTube channel.

[00:00:12]Welcome to the discussion of the 28th anniversary of the reform from reform to autocracy. Let me introduce myself, Aulia from Indonesia Corruption Watch, who will guide the discussion today.

[00:00:24]I'm not alone here.

[00:00:25]Also accompanied by Mas Egi Primaayoga, Head of the Advocacy Division of ICW. There is Bang Bima Yudistria from Selios. Eh, there is Ms. Azli Amira Putri from the Kontras Legal Division and later we will follow Ms. Ita Faat Nad, she was a companion to victims of mass rape in 1998 and was also a former member of the fact-finding team in 1998.

[00:00:48]So, before entering into the discussion, let me give a little context as to why it is important to discuss reform like that.

[00:00:55]This is the 28th anniversary, exactly on May 21st, which is today. 28 years ago, President Soeharto resigned from his position as president after ruling for approximately 32 years in an authoritarian manner, marked by corruption, collusion and nepotism. Of course, Suharto's decline or resignation did not arise in a vacuum. which was the peak of mass pressure at that time. Ee waves of demonstrations exploded because of one of them, there was a financial crisis, ee there were murders at that time, eh a series of gross human rights violations and also public disgust towards how crony capitalism was run by Soeharto and his Cendana family after he resigned, there was a series of agendas that were promoted like that. So our transition from an authoritarian state to a more democratic state began with us amending our constitution four times. Ee introduced a package of various laws, introduced ee clauses on human rights, transparency, and opened the tap of public participation and ee politics like that. which was greatly suppressed during the New Order and I can say that all of that enthusiasm was born from the hope that people like Soeharto would no longer be in power. Once an autocrat named Suharto could no longer rule in this republic. So, in essence, all reform orientations can actually be said to be leading towards this. But ee almost 3 decades have passed, we can see at least six demands for reform at that time, ee, namely, let me repeat that, ee, to remind my friends, the first is that there is Adli Soeharto and his cronies, the second is the amendment to the 1945 Constitution, which removes the function of ABRI, eliminates corruption, collusion, and nepotism. Uphold the rule of law and provide the broadest possible regional autonomy.

[00:02:57]From these six demands, we can see, eh, very clearly, that almost three decades have passed, either the mandates have not been fulfilled at all, or even things that have been reformed have been dismantled in such a way that it feels like we are no longer moving backwards, but running backwards, ee, to the era before the reform. So that's more or less what we want to talk about today, okay? Are our reforms leading back to autocracy? Oh, I see. That's why there's a question mark there. Autocracy can more or less be categorized as a form of government where there is a kind of absolutism, where power is centralized in one individual and there are no checks and balances, that's all. So we want to ask this afternoon whether we are heading back to that moment, to the moment before the reformation.

[00:03:51]And to start with, I would like to ask for a brief response as an opening from our speakers today.

[00:04:00]Just a simple question from everyone's perspective, what is the most significant thing about the reforms that makes it important for us to remember this phenomenon?

[00:04:12]That's how Mas EG can start. Oh, Mas B wants to start first. Please do.

[00:04:18]Oh, thanks.

[00:04:21]So regarding this reform, there is actually a big question. Maybe there never really was any reform. Because in the economic side, corruption, collusion, nepotism, elite capture, monopoly, natural resources are only different in the name of the PT. Even some PTs that still existed during the New Order era have now become subsidiaries and companies have emerged whose ownership or beneficial ownership is still in the same hands. So, structurally, there is no change in the economy. The commodities are getting worse and worse.

[00:05:04]wood is still there and there is still a lot of natural resource leakage and corruption there.

[00:05:12]But now there is bioethanol, then there is nickel, there is bax, and there are also other mining products. So the scale of natural resource extraction that fuels inequality and economic structures is still occurring. Even the scale is much more massive.

[00:05:33]And earlier regarding the revocation of ABRI's function, it turns out that the DUI function of ABR was never lost. So I said this is just a short rest phase in the ABR function.

[00:05:47]So now it's back again in the lives of civilians [snorts] ee controlling many strategic economic sectors in the name of military language again, right?

[00:06:00]National defense, sovereignty.

[00:06:03]But what actually happened during the New Order was a repeat of itself, but on a much more brutal, more subtle, more visible, more vulgar, and without any shame.

[00:06:16]So if you say this is the New Order 2.0, that's right, and this New Order 2.0 has destroyed all business competition or ideals, and if we look at it, the decline is not only a decline during the reform era, but it is similar to the early New Order era and in just one year we have felt the rapid degradation in all components, including the economy. There has not been a single president, even if it was Soeharto before, compared to Soeharto, from 66 to 74, how many years was that after the malaria outbreak? So, approximately how many phases are there? 8 years from coming to power until the malaria occurred. It's only been a year and the rupiah is already in such bad shape.

[00:07:16]Then there are many policies that are also blunders, they are rushing the economic conditions and don't want to be reminded of that, right? And the difference is that during the Soeharto era, he was still protected by technocrats, the technocrats who were around him were called the Berkele Mafia. Now, for a year now, the military has been directly commanding and providing direct input into policy, and technocrats are afraid to approach. Even the technocrats of the Jokowi era are afraid to approach him now. So if we reflect and condemn the New Order as a 32-year period that was quite dark in various aspects, including women's rights and so on. Workers' rights labor rights.

[00:08:00]Today the conditions are much worse than the New Order. So, we have to say that Indonesia is not progressing anywhere, we are running backwards or actually we are not progressing but instead burying ourselves inward.

[00:08:19]And I think the situation today compared to the New Order is similar to '96.

[00:08:27]So don't imagine that today it's 98, but 96 to 97.

[00:08:34]So there have been warnings that the policies cannot gain the trust of the public, and also from business actors. And at that time, there were already signs, yes, the industry started to have layoffs, and the companies' invoices and price lists were changing every day because the exchange rate was so uncontrollable.

[00:09:01]Well, today I can't see, oh this is different from 98. Don't look at 98. This is the year 96.

[00:09:10]So, in just a few moments, we will be heading towards a phase of repeating the failures of Suharto in 1997 and 1998. Why?

[00:09:20]We almost see, for example, the Merah Putih Village cooperative repeating the failure of the village unit cooperative.

[00:09:28]Now there is something called the Indonesian Export and Resources Agency which was only established on May 19, 2026. On May 20, it was announced by President Prabowo, repeating what? And between these resources or DSI repeating the failure of the clove BPPC which may be slightly different or almost the same, actually during the Soeharto era there was a consolidation of the labor movement, yes. There can't be any other labor unions besides SPSI, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:10:07]Well, today Monas yesterday at the time of Me was a form of workers' consolidation, and the workers who celebrated Me were the med which was attended by the President.

[00:10:18]If there are other groups outside of Monas, then it is considered that they are not part of the consolidation of the labor movement. So the method is almost the same as the template. So, for us, if we look at these setbacks, the question is, what can we read from them? And if this leads to a downfall or a major shock, then the question is, what can we learn from 96 and 97 today? What is missing? In my opinion, one thing that is actually lacking is the self-confidence of civil society.

[00:10:59]In fact, there are more and more civil society members today. The number of labor unions is also greater than in the Soeharto era, right? Well, but between civil society and workers there may be a growing distance. The NGOs or their levels have no base compared to the 90s.

[00:11:19]They used to take care of the base.

[00:11:21]Who has a base today? That question.

[00:11:24]Then there are the academics. The number of lecturers in '96 compared to 2026 is certainly a lot today, there are many campuses. But why is it that the more lecturers there are, the more critical voices become muted? Even the campus was made into SPPG, MBG.

[00:11:44]Not many of the lecturers said anything like that either.

[00:11:47]This means that the reproduction of academic numbers is increasing, but intellectual reproduction on campuses is stagnant.

[00:11:57]Another thing that I think should be a lesson is connecting the critical points or melting pots in many of these areas. So the issue is not just an issue of criticizing Prabowo from Jakarta or partially per issue.

[00:12:19]So if ee is anti-corruption, anti- economic corruption, environmental economics, energy itself, right?

[00:12:26]Meanwhile, in 1996 to 1997 or previous years, we saw that the consolidation was very fluid.

[00:12:36]This means that those who brought up the anti- corruption issue met with the women's movement, met with the human rights movement, met with progressive economists at that time. So, in my opinion, the problem is very clear now, the reading is almost the same, corruption is increasingly massive.

[00:12:58]But from the perspective of civil society, it is either that the way it works is fragmented or that it sees that the current logistical power is much greater than in the Soeharto era. But if I look at it, they can have MBG, they can have COPDES, right? But what is clear is that Soeharto had logistics that were also in power for 32 years, unlimited and even greater. And Soeharto's 32 years versus this is only 1 year, if we can say that Jokowi is bringing about the consolidation of the autocratic power.

[00:13:39]Prabowo, who should actually be enjoying his authoritarianism, enjoying fascism, but it turns out that his life is short-lived in the current turmoil. It's only been a year and he's already feeling paranoid.

[00:13:57]Soeharto's paranoia only started in '4, then it consolidated again for a long time, from the 0s to '98, before Soeharto finally fell. So, what we are facing today is actually much easier than facing Suharto and how Suharto reached the regional level with his Golcar, with the influence of his political party and his economic rents.

[00:14:25][snort] Today, those who are taking advantage of the rent are also confused about Prabowo's behavior because Prabowo has brought new rents.

[00:14:34]So, if previously there were nine dragons, now they have been replaced by hajj, and all nine hajj also do not have the same voice as Prabowo because Prabowo also has his own ee vehicle or capital. So I think the elite are also more scrambled compared to the New Order era. Well, that's what I think the calling is in us, right?

[00:15:02]The call is at Welcome Mrs. Ita.

[00:15:05]Yes, Mrs. Ita.

[00:15:07]It's as if the calling is there for us in academia and also in civil society. How to build collective power and narrative warfare we must master.

[00:15:20]So, those who carry out autocracy or authoritarianism don't actually feel that great, but in fact they are in a very fragile condition, much more fragile than Soeharto for 32 years.

[00:15:37]So we are heading towards a pre-crisis situation, what can we do? Are you afraid or are you showing solidarity with your friends on the front lines?

[00:15:48][snorts] That's probably it, Bro Yasar.

[00:15:50]Okay, thank you, Bang Wima. I want to chip in a bit before I hand the mic to someone else. Uh, just a little follow up question. Earlier it was about the labor landscape, yes, the working class was like that. As mentioned earlier in the New Order, even though there were perhaps only a few unions, they could still have mobilization power. In this current era, is there any influence by looking at ee, for example, there is reading that informal workers are much more numerous. So people are more into survival mode, more or less. Does that have an impact on the people's strength and resistance to the regime that is actually oppressive?

[00:16:27]Yes, in terms of proportion, there is indeed impoverishment among this middle class.

[00:16:33]That's why we are educated and precariat.

[00:16:37]So the problem now is the educated and the precariat. So he is educated but he works in the informal sector.

[00:16:45]now they account for 60% of the total workforce. But the informal ones include motorcycle taxi drivers, including daily laborers. He doesn't want to be identified as a laborer.

[00:16:59]And this is also a reflection too. So the middle class has decreased by 10 million people in the last 10 years. Last year there were 1.1 million fewer middle class people. Because Prabowo only pays attention to the top 20%.

[00:17:15]and 40% of the lowest group. The bottom one gets MBG and COPDES. So, as kitchen workers, you get social assistance.

[00:17:24]Meanwhile, the top ones are serviced with various incentives. So the middle class is getting smaller. But my reflection is this, even though workers have shifted to precarious or informal workers, there has been a failure on the part of trade unions to redefine what a worker or laborer actually is. So, even the informal ones don't feel like they are part of the workforce. In fact, we could say that informal workers are also blue-collar workers. So the more geek workers, freelancers like this, the weaker the unions become.

[00:18:07]Well, this is what I think is weakening trade unions in many countries. But in the United States, there has been a reversal in the last 2-3 years, where informal workers, including taxi workers and others, are starting to be interested in forming unions again because they can redefine how workers, both formal and informal, are actually victims of an unfair system.

[00:18:34]The difference is that the formal ones, those who work in offices or factories, are exploited by the factory owners. The other one is exploited by the platform owners.

[00:18:45]But if there has never been a labor union, it must be very difficult. They would immediately say, "We can't organize ojol. Ojol is not a worker. Ojol is a community.

[00:18:58]Ojol is a partner. And the government also exploited it well to always say that advocating for workers and ojol are two different things so it was weakened. But the unions didn't have a strategy to embrace those who were increasingly entering the informal sector. That's what failed ee post-reform.

[00:19:23]Thank you, Bang Wima. Ms. Ita, let me give a little context. So, that was just the opening question. We were discussing the initial question ee, what was the most important thing about reform at that time and why is it still relevant so that continuing to maintain the spirit of reform is an important thing in reform. Please, Mas, the same question.

[00:19:46]Thank you Mas Yasar, who is wearing the same shirt as me. [laughs] Okay. Em, good afternoon everyone.

[00:19:54]Em, it's nice to meet you all here again, yes, those who are present offline or also online. I was watching online too, huh. Ee, it turned out to be quite good. Ee, if I talk about reform, I'll be clear that reform is dead, marked by The failure to eradicate corruption and the rampant human rights violations.

[00:20:18]I won't delve into the second part, that's the responsibility of my colleagues at KontraS.

[00:20:22]We can also talk about the economy; there's Mas Bima. Ms. Ita can also add something about, uh, what's it called?

[00:20:29]Human rights. But if I may emphasize, from the context of corruption, at least we can see the failure from the demands. First, there are six demands for reform. Mas Yasar mentioned it earlier. Let me read them again.

[00:20:45]First, bring Suharto and his cronies to justice. Second, implement amendments to the 1945 Constitution.

[00:20:54]Third, abolish the ABRI (Indonesian Armed Forces) function. Fourth, implement the broadest possible regional autonomy.

[00:21:02]Fifth, uphold the rule of law.

[00:21:05]Seventh, create a government free from corruption, collusion, and nepotism.

[00:21:12]These six are all problematic. I'll discuss Adli Suharto's role in the ABRI function later, and other colleagues.

[00:21:20]But if we talk about regional autonomy, for example, it's pushing for decentralization of authority from the government. The central government was very authoritarian at the time. But if we look at its implementation, at least it turns out that corruption was massive, and it was rampant everywhere. Not yet. As we approach 2020, the Job Creation Law re-centralized authority, at least in terms of natural resource management. Now, that authority has been shifted to the central government. So, that characterizes the fact that, in terms of regional autonomy, we also have problems today.

[00:21:59]Added to that is the rampant corruption of regional heads. The ICW (Indonesian Corruption Watch) database is already very extensive. There are many regional heads caught in corruption cases, and they recur every year.

[00:22:17]And in terms of creating a government free from corruption, collusion, and nepotism, I don't think we need to discuss it further.

[00:22:24]Corruption is still rampant. We've also collected data on hundreds of corruption cases, and they still continue to occur every year, being prosecuted or handled by law enforcement officials, the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK), the Prosecutor's Office, and the Police. Not to mention the low sentences, only around three years or so. So, corruption, collusion, and nepotism continues to spread. Well, the second characteristic is certainly related to the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK). I want to flashback to 2019 when the KPK was weakened.

[00:22:59]If we saw the film " Gohost in the Cell" yesterday, there was a 1919 symbol. Maybe some of you still remember, uh, one of the actors, what was the character? 1919 actually signifies the revision number of the KPK Law that destroyed the KPK.

[00:23:19]What was it like when Jokowi destroyed it?

[00:23:22]By stripping its independence. By stripping its authority, so the KPK was no longer as powerful as it once was. Yet the KPK itself is a child of reform. It was born in 2002, which was a mandate of reform. Then, after the KPK, there was the Information Commission, the Ombudsman, and so on. That was a mandate of reform. But unfortunately, politicians have been slowly but surely trying to weaken the KPK for a long time. Yes, weakening the KPK wasn't just attempted in 2019, but long before. Even when the reform was just beginning, that weakening was already being attempted.

[00:24:06]Yes. Until finally reaching a breaking point. In 2019, the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) was destroyed, weakened, and ultimately lost its edge, and it was also suspected that it could be influenced by the interests of those in power. That's another problem with the KPK. I remember that time, we were all like that, not just ICW but also friends, or other civil society groups, who came to the KPK building carrying a coffin in front of the KPK building because symbolically the KPK was dead, and we could no longer rely on it as before. Well, the third thing for me, or we need to discuss is the issue of oligarchy. I want to talk about its relationship with inequality, [snorts] multidimensional inequality. But I'm trying to underline here how economic inequality ultimately impacts political inequality. Because if we reflect on the years since the 1998 reforms until now, we're talking in the context of elections, for example, let me give an example, we don't need to go too far or give too many examples. [snorts] Elections The candidates are determined not by the will of the people, the will of the people, but by the elites.

[00:25:33]Elites with extremely concentrated wealth are called oligarchs. They determine the candidates, and we then determine or elect those candidates.

[00:25:45]That's it. So, there are never any candidates whose options are non-oligarchic.

[00:25:49]The options are always oligarchic. From regional elections, gubernatorial elections, mayoral elections, district head elections, even to the presidential election, it's almost certainly the same. The presidential election is definitely like that. So the options are oligarchic options that we can't, or can't, avoid.

[00:26:08]Because why can I say it leads from economic balance, inequality balance, to political balance? Because basically, this starts with the extreme concentration of wealth from oligarchs with extreme wealth. They can influence political parties. They can influence decision-making in the formation of policies in the executive, legislative, or even in the election administration, election organizers. And ultimately, that leads to those oligarchic options. Meanwhile, we, who are economically not like them. Some are even more so. ee lucky compared to us, huh. ee the level is lower or further ee compared to the oligars. The oligars can determine something, but they or we can't determine anything. So, there's political inequality here, huh. Wealth inequality ultimately leads to political inequality. Well, this is what's been happening since ee 98 until today. And if we hope that 1998 will give birth to democratic consolidation, where democracy, ee we can say ee still young, democracy is still good, still unstable ee still vulnerable ee with various shortcomings, then democratic consolidation occurs so that democracy becomes more stable, more robust, huh. And there's an agreement that democracy is the rule of the game. It feels like that's not what's happening, huh. In fact, what's happening is not democratic consolidation, but oligarchic consolidation. This is proven by the oligarchs who now control various lines in our democratic institutions, the executive, the legislative, eh, eh, at various levels. So that also makes me reflect on why democracy is happening like that. Earlier I wanted to mention state capture Uh, that's actually a depiction of how political elites can become oligarchies or, uh, cartels. Cartels formed with other political elites, not just economic elites, uh, in this case, oligarchies. Uh, then they form a coalition, a cartel that can ultimately hijack policies, that's called state capture.

[00:28:28]Uh, then what else should I talk about? This is because it's repeated, it doesn't matter. Still Asar, right, Mas Asar. Regarding electoral corruption, friends. Uh, electoral corruption also occurs from time to time. Uh, but I think what we need to underline is electoral corruption in 2024, namely when our vice president at that time ran without proper means. There was election corruption there where they could become candidates without proper means, the rules of the game were changed. So, actually, the current government is already morally flawed, morally and ethically.

[00:29:20]Although there were no legal violations because the rules of the game had been changed, and unfortunately, there were none. punishment or ee what ee ee ee what yeah ee appropriate retribution instead they are in power until now and we find it difficult to ee shake them like that until now they are getting stronger that is also a problem.

[00:29:43]Uh another thing I want to convey ee Mas Yasar and friends.

[00:29:49]If I may talk about this is about Soeharto, yes. Regarding Soeharto, we know that his sentence did not continue, his sentence stopped when ee Soeharto died in 2008. According to the data, some have been sentenced but also law enforcement has not been running optimally, very far from expectations.

[00:30:16]But what I want to emphasize here is that the failure to prosecute Soeharto is a reflection that we have failed to show what the constant of justice is.

[00:30:29]Which ultimately has an impact on subsequent rulers who freely commit violations of the law, corruption, collusion, nepotism, human rights violations and so on. If when when in '98 Soeharto was tried legally, there was a clear demarcation line there that this was justice, yes. Maybe who is our president Previously, Mr. Jokowi was like that yesterday.

[00:30:57]With the electoral corruption allegations I mentioned earlier, he wouldn't have dared to do that, or if he did, he would have received the appropriate punishment.

[00:31:07]So, bringing Jokowi to justice doesn't just stop at the walls or banners. He's truly being tried. The same goes for Prabowo and subsequent rulers after Prabowo. They won't dare because there's a constant of justice like that. Justice means not doing what Suharto did, and there will be appropriate punishment if you do that. That's what I think is important for us to underline: the failure of reform is marked by the failure to bring Suharto to justice. He soon became a hero. It's so easy to be given the title of hero when voices of opposition everywhere are still ignored.

[00:31:50]So our condition today is truly sad. Well, the last one is perhaps related to the theme of autocracy. I won't go into too much detail here, but if we look at various democracy indexes around the world, let's talk about the index, uh, freedom. House in the economist, uh, intelligence unit, or we also have VIDEM, for example, or Civicus, when we talk about civic space, they're all bad. None of them describe the democratic situation in Indonesia well. Today, VIDEM calls it electoral autocresis.

[00:32:32]Uh, Freedom House says it's partly free.

[00:32:36]Civicus says it obstructs our civic space. Another economist, they talk about flow democracy, which I disagree with. If we look at the characteristics, we've actually entered a hybrid regime. Because if we look at yesterday's coverage of Project Multatuli, there were two press reports that were suppressed. They had to be suppressed, engineered to serve the interests of those in power. Or, for example, our friends were arrested and unjustly sentenced after the August demonstrations, which ultimately weakened oversight itself. So, if the index comes out again, it should have changed to a hybrid regime, at least that's how it is. No, not in the context of, uh, like it is now.

[00:33:25]That was probably Mr. Yasar. I'll return it to Mr. Yasar. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Egi. There were some interesting points I want to follow up on, but I 'll give them first. To Ms. Almira.

[00:33:34]Please, Ms. Thank you. Maybe I'll follow up a bit because we mentioned earlier that Suharto received a new title last year, the title of hero. This is very ironic considering that Suharto received this title at the same time as labor activist Marsinah, who we suspect was also killed by the TNI. Well, in relation to this, the current government is actually a contrast, considering that Prabowo was dismissed during the Habibie administration, but ultimately returned to not return, but ultimately became president, elected by the people. Well, the problem here is that when the military returned to the presidency, and one of the major demands of reform was to abolish the ABRI division, the military gradually gained strength in the current government. For example, perhaps you may have heard information last year that there was a revision to the TNI Law, which was carried out secretly. The law was then passed around the same month and ultimately did not really listen to what the people or society wanted.

[00:35:05]And according to our data, violence by TNI officers definitely increased. The ratification of the revised TNI Law.

[00:35:13]Between October 2024 and September 2025, there were 85 incidents of violence by TNI soldiers, 53 of which occurred after the law was passed.

[00:35:26]The problem is that even before the 2025 Law was passed, even since 2004, there have been efforts to normalize the TNI's involvement in society. For example, the OMSP's duties include securing the National Security Operation (OP Fitnas), or what we now often hear as the National Security Agency (PSN). One example is in Rempang, at that time, there were 1,000 joint officers to evict indigenous people who had lived there for 200 years. Then, their land was to be used for business, and then foreign investors arrived, and so on. Well, that's also part of the problem. Because when ABRI enters the community, where it should have a role in security, and security is synonymous with violent methods, directed externally from the state, and in fact, clashes with The people are very dangerous because it will give rise to continued violence.

[00:36:37]How did society end up normalizing that the TNI is helping the people when in fact it isn't? Their job shouldn't be there, but rather to maintain security from abroad. But in reality, many officers are currently holding civilian positions. Well, some of Prabowo's friends on the Rose Team have retired and held civilian positions. For example, they became commissioners of Trans Jakarta, became Director General of Customs and Excise, became Minister of Defense, and served as National Civil Service Agency (BSN), and even received honorary medals like Eurico Guterres, who also received honorary medals at the time. But it doesn't stop there. Ultimately, as a result of these normalizations, we don't realize that this is abnormal.

[00:37:23]That a country should be open to democracy, with a society that is characterized by an open democracy index. As mentioned earlier, perhaps Freedom House or Civicus monitors the state of democracy in countries around the world. And it's true that Indonesia continues to decline year after year.

[00:37:44]We can see this in the context of democracy.

[00:37:47]Last year, for example, there were Attacks on activists involving the sending of pig heads, rats, and chickens, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:37:58]There was also the acid attack carried out by the TNI, and the trial for that is currently underway, a farce trial. This shows that the TNI still has power that cannot be eliminated after the reformation, and we still have a lot of homework to do, a long time to be able to eliminate this.

[00:38:18]Hmm, if I'm not mistaken, the separation of the ABRI DISSUMPTION was only passed in 2002. Meanwhile, the TNI faction in the DPR was only issued in 2004 when the TNI Law was passed, which stated that the TNI must resign from their positions if they want to hold civilian positions like that. But we still have a long homework to do.

[00:38:50]Here we still have military justice.

[00:38:52]Here we still have OMSP that interferes too much with the Indonesian people, and so on. Maybe that's all from me.

[00:39:03]Okay, thank you. Ee Amira ee gave a little context too ee there Apologies from Bang Bima, he has something to catch up on so he has to ask permission first.

[00:39:16]Okay. Uh, before I continue, I want to give a follow- up question, I want to give a chance to uh, Mrs. Ita. Please, Mrs. Ita.

[00:39:23]Okay. Uh, thank you. Good afternoon.

[00:39:26]Sorry I'm late because I have an event in Bandung. Uh, I'll be here first, I'll move later. [laughs] Uh, good for reflection on reform towards autocracy, for me, reform has failed from the start.

[00:39:44]Because the reform started from one very big case, namely the rape of ethnic Chinese women, at that time I was the coordinator of the volunteer team for violence against women.

[00:40:02]Uh, together with the volunteer team for humanity, there were 158 cases.

[00:40:09]Not only the mass rape of ethnic Chinese women, and it really happened, it wasn't nonsense, it wasn't just imagination. The second was the murder or burning of the urban poor in three large malls, namely in Karawaci, then in Jatinegara, then in Kalender and [snorts] uh uh actually there's a photo of it, uh, during the reformation, on May 16th, there were a number of black bags uh The people who were burned in the three malls were at RSCM and there were a lot of young people, yes, there were young people, college students, high school students because at that time before the May 98 reforms, we experienced an economic crisis. A very severe economy. In '97, the economic crisis was followed by massive layoffs.

[00:41:14]Well, we on the volunteer team when I joined the volunteer team, we founded a solidarity cooperative and this solidarity cooperative we served ee workers in the ee area of Tangerang and then in the ee area of ​​Bekasi who could no longer eat at all. So we ee then we also worked with YLBHI, we worked with several NGO organizations serving about ee serving for those who could not ee eat, yes, they were truly poor. And when that happened the looting and plundering in 1997 was massive looting in almost every ee what ee ee wholesale.

[00:42:08]Well, so for us, for me at least, the reform was a total failure. Because reform is followed by murder, rape and what?

[00:42:23]The burning of the urban poor as well as shootings, shootings. I'm with Stanley, Stanley is a journalist, a journalist. We went around the city of Jakarta to see how many people had been killed, yeah. And until 00 am I was walking around, ee that's reform.

[00:42:46]So reform for us is reform from a situation that is not towards goodness, but reform that hides ee a number of ee human rights violations which in my opinion are extraordinary violations and are covered up, never revealed, not mentioned ee ee 28 years ee I continue to fight with my friends to speak out about mass rape.

[00:43:26]We recorded it in great detail, including the name, address, where the rape took place, when the rape took place, it was in great detail.

[00:43:36]And we, along with several women, 11 women, met with President Habibie and President Habibie stated that it was true that rape had occurred. President Habibie then apologized to the Indonesian people for the rape that occurred. But this was denied by the Minister of Culture Fadlison. When in June he denied it through an interview with IDN.

[00:44:04]Two days later I immediately held a press conference that Fadrison had lied to the public and Fadrison had ee what ee denied serious violations during the reform. So reform is not just about overthrowing Suharto. Reform is not just changing policies for the better. reform has killed its own people. So when Fadlison stated that rape did not exist, I was assisted by a number of young lawyers, 21 people led by Kontras and YLBI and several friends. There was Jin Rosalina from Kontras, there were all young people, we met with them and we said we had to fight them at that time, what was it, ma'am, we were against them.

[00:45:01]I am confused that for 28 years I have continued to fight because I have seen firsthand how women's bodies and sexuality are destroyed for terror. And it's not ordinary people who do it. It is an apparatus.

[00:45:20]Ordinary men are impossible because 80% or I may say 100% do not use male genitalia.

[00:45:29]No. everything uses tools and it's done quickly. It is impossible for an ordinary man to come and rape someone within 5 minutes or 10 minutes.

[00:45:44]Impossible.

[00:45:47]The rapes in '98 were carried out systematically and extensively. Not only in Jakarta but also in Medan, in Surabaya, in Solo, in Palembang. It is impossible in difficult economic conditions, in poor conditions, then people think that rape is impossible. How could people think then I saw myself on the calendar a number of poor people in the city when they could not buy what ee food ingredients entered the key calendar from outside the fire. Likewise in Jatinegara there were so many corpses. It's impossible for an ordinary person to do that. This means that a systematic approach is widespread and this is carried out by the authorities.

[00:46:48]I am not afraid. I was just given a Molotov cocktail at my house. It's not about Andri, but I was also given a lotof bomb.

[00:46:56]But I said I was quiet.

[00:46:59]I said fight with contrasting friends. Because of this we can all open all documents. This is an official document there is no. All of them are all victims stating I was raped, I was abused, I was abused. I'll give you an example. An 18- year-old student had her breasts cut off.

[00:47:21]Is that what ordinary people think? No.

[00:47:26]it is a system, it is a political agenda of a violent person in power.

[00:47:36]And then when I participated in training at the ICC in Denhah, there was a lawyer at the ICC named Hannah Thompson. He said, " Nowhere in the world does violence like that. Except in Bosnia, Indonesia, Rwanda, and then in Turkey during the Armenian era. And then when we sat down with the UN special rapporteur, Radika Komara Suami, he said this was a very serious human rights violation in the political process, yes, political change requires terror.

[00:48:25]So for me, reform has failed completely as long as the violence and murder of poor women are negated and covered up.

[00:48:39]Two weeks ago, the State Administrative Court rejected our lawsuit at the State Administrative Court. We sued Fadison for what policy?

[00:48:51]Because of what? His denial. The denial was rejected. What does that mean? It means this is a political agenda of militarism.

[00:49:05]Because of what? Because Fadlison as Minister of Culture has been going to rewrite history. And this rewriting of history is part of the politics of amnesia and the politics of impunity.

[00:49:21]What is the politics of impunity? The politics of impunity is erasing the collective memory of this nation regarding anything that happens that involves power and what concerns the perpetrators are the perpetrators, eh, the rulers. In this case, I say the military. Because of what? Because it is very clear in the ICC How these torture patterns are impossible for ordinary people to carry out. So, I would say that this government, especially since the reform era, has made no effort whatsoever to openly resolve the issue of the rape and murder of the urban poor in three large malls, which numbered in the hundreds, and has never been addressed, never revealed. This is genocide, a massacre of its own people. And this has been completely covered up and even now denied by Fadlison, by the Minister of Culture. We are appealing together with our friends from KontraS and YLPHI. We are appealing.

[00:50:41]Uh, besides that, we are currently compiling cases together for the murder of the urban poor, but also rape, but not the policy. We are compiling them to be submitted to the Constitutional Court. So, what is the prosecution process? And I think the reform must be opened. It must be opened that this reform towards authoritarianism is a process that is not by chance, but is a political agenda of militarism and authoritarianism. And ee, also followed by the writing of national history carried out by Minister of Culture Fadrison, is a political agenda to erase the collective memory of this nation, erase gross human rights violations, and erase ee, what ee to build Amnesia. This amnesia is indeed a tool of the fascists and authoritarians. So for me, I never felt that reform was successful. As long as reform doesn't reveal the crimes that occurred during the reform, I think we're still in what? The authoritarian system of the New Order era has just changed its clothes. And now I think it's even worse because I, as one of the founders of the National Commission on Violence Against Women, just conducted a study showing that femicide this year has increased sharply [snorts], yes, an increase of almost 28%, murders against women are very, very high, and I can say that some of them were committed by the military, yes, without any clear trial. Therefore, I say that Indonesian women do not own their bodies, not women. Their bodies now belong to the state, to the military. Because when conflict occurs, they will be used for the sake of the sake of the sake, not to terrorize the community. I worked in Aceh with Elsam and how many Acehnese women were raped. I also worked in Timor Leste for two years for ZAVR, where we also learned how the military Indonesia also commits the destruction of women's sexuality [snorts]. At that time, we, as the National Commission on Violence Against Women, were working in Poso. How do they do that too? Um, Lampung too, Ambon. Even in Papua, there are only a few.

[00:53:44]Coincidentally, I'm now on the board of Amnesty International. We conducted research in ee where? In Papua, ee also some time ago, we also coordinated with the Gidi Church, and for this PSN, there were 100,000 or so. You can see that at the pig festival. But the most important thing is that the ones who were mostly expelled from their villages, from society, were women and children. And what happened was rape, yes, and the rape was extraordinary for the Papuan people. This is what we are thinking about, how we should speak out about this because this is our shared responsibility. I think that's it.

[00:54:32]Thank you very much, Ms. Ita, for sharing your story. Of course, I also want to thank Ms. Ita for her work so far, it's very, very important, yes. Uh, continuing like that. If you mentioned earlier about efforts to erase history, Ms., about efforts to erase collective memory. In that context, if we can read that, this is part of From the agenda of moving towards autocracy or even what was mentioned earlier by the authorities towards fascism. Uh, how important is it for us to identify the situation more precisely? If at the beginning it was said that reform has never succeeded, is it more appropriate for us to start to schedule it, not start by saying that now is not a democratic era?

[00:55:17]Right. I agree that this is not a democracy. What was it, sir, that there is a democracy that is flawed? Yes. And that flaw is further exacerbated by the ongoing agenda of writing history, and this writing of history, if I may say, is exactly the same as what Soeharto did. Soeharto took power in 1965. 1966-1967, he told Nugrohono Susanto to rewrite six volumes of history and almost all the things that are important to this nation's history were removed. Well, now on October 24, 2002-2025, Prabowo was inaugurated as president. In December, he had a meeting and ordered Fadlison to create a national history, rewrite, revise history. National. And we have something called the Indonesian Historical Transparency Alliance. What are we doing? Studying, and what's happening is whitewashing history. And this whitewashing history is part of, uh, what? Part of the methods of fascism.

[00:56:44]Hitler, I forgot to bring it up, actually, I wrote it was Hitler. So, before he got on board, he asked seven great German historians, one of whom was Habermas, to write a history of Germany Uber Ales. Well, this is Fadlison, the Minister of Culture. This whitewashing history or erasing history is also happening in Indonesia with 100 historians, and we are fighting it because we are constantly resisting, and we are currently trying with our friends from the Indonesian Legal Aid Institute ( LBHI) to challenge this in the Constitutional Court. We are looking for a way. But this whitewashing history is a systematic part of a fascist government.

[00:57:38]So, the narratives of this nation's collective memory will be erased according to power or according to the direction of this country or the president.

[00:57:54]For example, I just came from Bandung, we had a workshop about how the Asian Conference will not be written. The Asian Conference was a major conference for this nation that provided an ideological path, an ideological compass for decolonization, for anti-colonialism, Towards the Non-Aligned Movement.

[00:58:22]Imagine the whole world talking about Indonesia as a nation that provides direction.

[00:58:34]29 heads of state came to Bandung.

[00:58:37]Nehru and Joen Lai were there. All the nations of the world that opposed colonialism were present, talking about anti-colonialism, talking about the Non-Aligned Movement. But that won't be written about.

[00:58:54]Moreover, the rape and events of '65 will be erased.

[00:59:03]National history will start from 1970. We'll try to discuss that. So, erasing history or whitewashing history is a strategy of the fascists and is part of militarism. So, if I may say, we are entering an era of militarism, and this is what we must really pay attention to. And this requires a joint movement.

[00:59:42]This joint movement must be built together, and to build a shared imagination of this nation that opposes militarism. I think that's it.

[00:59:56]Thank you, Ma'am. Uh, still on that subject. I want to talk to Mas Egi a bit.

[01:00:00]Uh, in September of last year, if I'm not mistaken, uh, ICW, in one of its campaigns, voiced the idea of ​​starting a new chapter, right?

[01:00:07]There was... There's a phrase, "Forget the reform," if I may tell you a little bit, is it related to us trying to provide a more precise categorization, like the system that was organized, oligarchic, and maybe the oligarchy hasn't changed since the New Order or what, eh, Mas? Please.

[01:00:25]Yes, I think the starting point is what we discussed today, both from Mas Bima, Mbak Amira, Bu Ita, or what I said earlier, that the reform has failed.

[01:00:37]We could say that the reform is dead, so why should we live in a dead era? We have to think or imagine the next era. If there was an Old Order, a New Order, and reform, what's next?

[01:00:54]That's what we have to think about going forward. What's the way to do it?

[01:00:58]We do need to discuss it further, more sharply, Mas Yasar and friends. Because if we persist in the current KOA status, in the future, little by little, for example, if we want to protest and demonstrate, we will be criminalized, we will be arrested again, or for example, if we report a corruption case, we will also be criminalized. That happens in the context of corruption. Not to mention Regarding human rights and so on. The economy is the same, right? Ee I don't know, I was hoping Mas Bima would have more time to talk about the current economy, maybe compared to ee 96, if ee earlier he said yes 96 then then in 98 there was the dollar which is now suddenly rising like that. Ee I think ee Mas Bima [clears throat] ee should be able to convey that, but unfortunately ee he also has other things to do. But that's a sign and ee yes I want to say also that we as civil society, we who talk about those of us who join NGOs or also nono or also we as citizens do not change what we do today.

[01:02:16]It feels like the status quo that is currently happening, what is currently happening will continue to prolong, yes. So it's also important for me ee for all of us citizens to reflect on what we should do in the future, we must dare to self-criticize, we must dare to state that what we did in the past was not enough to prevent the New Order from returning, to prevent the bad things that happened during the New Order from happening again today. That's it. Or, to put it simply, we failed to prevent Gibran from becoming vice president and Prabowo from becoming president. That's probably the short version. But I think that, uh, what's called a campaign, is related to what we're saying today. It can't be separated from each other, and we once again need to imagine a new phase.

[01:03:15]Okay, thank you, Mas Ei. A little more.

[01:03:18]uh, that was about the new image.

[01:03:21]If you identified a cartel, right? So, the organizational patterns of this oligarchy are like cronies. Like, what's important is that they secure what they want, like wealth managed corruptly or with state power.

[01:03:41]uh, seeing a situation like that is very deep-rooted, right? uh, are new methods that might need to be prioritized beyond just law enforcement, or what if it's systemic, what kind of uncovering it, Mas EI? Hehe.

[01:03:56]Wow, this is like a thesis exam. [laughs] But Uh, of course it's not easy because if we talk about oligarchy, actually, and also cartels, political cartels are one of the efforts we can do to limit it, limit oligarchy because completely eliminating oligarchy is also difficult. But if we want to limit oligarchy, its room to move so that it is not as wild as it is now and its influence on our democratic institutions, our democratic practices, our public life, uh, it's not like it is now, of course, strong law enforcement. But unfortunately, we also have problems in terms of law enforcement.

[01:04:39]I repeat again about the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK). The KPK, which was originally the last bastion, uh, a strong bastion against oligarchy, has been destroyed. So if there is no longer an institution strong enough to destroy the oligarchy, I think we could also experience very, very severe difficulties, uh, to get there. Maybe we could also start by strengthening democratic institutions again, but of course that is not enough. Regarding how the citizens were, if Mas Bima said there were connections between each other in 8 and Previously.

[01:05:24]So there's a grassroots level that's related to that, at the national level, let's say. That also has something to do with the grassroots level, and it's maintained.

[01:05:36]Now, it's not there, so why do n't we reactivate that?

[01:05:40]At least build solidarity, build communication, so there's no gap. Ultimately, if we're able to make that happen, hopefully, we can change today's conditions. It's not easy. I don't have a recipe that I can share today. But I think it's necessary for us to start a discussion about it. Just like that.

[01:06:07]That's possible. Thank you, Mas Egi.

[01:06:09]Before I open it to the audience, okay?

[01:06:12]My last question for Ms. Amira, as what? The institution that has always been at the forefront, like, to fight the New Order, right?

[01:06:23]The name is anti-Suharto. So, we've been dealing with the normalization of militarism and all sorts for a long time. Not to mention, most recently, there was a case that befell our friend, Andri. In the context of those kinds of attacks, right?

[01:06:40]How much is that disruption? It disrupts the rhythm of our advocacy. Because it ends up persisting. Uh, and is there an approach that we were reflecting on, perhaps prioritizing a new approach, is there anything being tried? And we need to think about it together. If the phase is no longer democracy, but militarism, what can we do so that we can remain more effective, in quotation marks, to fight. But on the other hand, we can also be more collective, together, without having to receive such intense backlash from the state.

[01:07:17]Uh, okay, thank you. Maybe you guys already know what happened to our deputy coordinator, and is that disruptive? Yes, it definitely has an impact on the institution because we should be doing A, B, C, and then uh, we have to re-arrange the priority scale of what to do and how to move forward for the institution. Because, after all, many of the threats that exist now are already physical. Maybe last year, there were people who liked to stop by in front of KontraS, and this year it escalated to acid. Then there are also terrors, uh, in the form of unknown phone calls. Hey, how do we still meet with police officers frequently, both in hospitals, offices, and elsewhere? So, how do we maintain the rhythm? We try every country; every time a country makes a statement that's unfavorable to civilians, especially Andri, we counterattack. We release the data we have, especially regarding, for example, how the military works. We have a lot of data on the military.

[01:08:28]How has military violence been going? And also, we've fought for the current trials in the military courts to change the law through the Constitutional Court and other means. Therefore, that's also our effort to keep this issue a long-term public discussion. Because often there are diversions to issues that may be less relevant, perhaps from artists or whatever, we're guarding against.

[01:09:01]We don't want the public to change their views on the issue and start to consider the current issue irrelevant. Why? Because right now, our democracy is truly in danger, considering, ee, not only Andre Yunus, but also the use of acid, which seems to be... simplified. One of them is an activist who was also exposed to acid in Bekasi and was treated at RSCM and later died.

[01:09:33]We are worried that in the future, first, people will become afraid because of the chilling effect there. Second, the use of acid will then be intensified. Third, threats against civilians will then escalate because people are afraid like that.

[01:09:50]Okay, thank you, Amira. I want to open up to my friends in the room.

[01:09:55]Uh, first session, maybe uh, if anyone wants to ask a question, please raise your hand or share your views. Please state your name.

[01:10:13]Uh, okay, let me introduce myself, my name is Wina.

[01:10:17]So, I want to ask uh, ma'am, sir, and madam, all the speakers. um, we can see that the military is increasingly uh, rampant around us. Well, um, and also if we look at social media, there is a lot of content related to violence committed not only by the military but also by state officials, which is spread easily digitally. Well, this certainly creates a trigger, right?

[01:10:55]for its users. One of them is also targeting minors, perhaps, and also women. Well, um, we can say whether this reform has succeeded or failed.

[01:11:12]Because the military has re-entered civilian spaces, but in a more modern way, which is not only direct violence, but also mental violence. So, um, how do we, as ordinary civilians who don't have weapons, who only have solidarity, work together so that we can have a counter-narrative together. Which, uh, we can see that the military is said to be with [clears throat] the people, the police are with the people through their programs.

[01:11:55]So, how can we have a counter-narrative, so that we can have more strength together in a more humane way? Thank you.

[01:12:09]Thank you, Wina. Is there anything else you want to ask?

[01:12:14]Not yet? Oh yes. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Good afternoon, peace be upon you all of us. First of all, let me introduce myself, my name is Arkan. I'm still in 9th grade of junior high school and here I want to ask you, I don't know if this is out of context, but I want to represent all of you students, all of my colleagues. I often speak up regarding national issues like this at school. atus WA, on Instagram.

[01:12:54]But we ourselves know that our parents might be worried, "Oh my, I'm afraid it will affect your education process. Later, you want to get a scholarship, for example from LPDP, but you can't, I'm afraid that's what you're afraid of. Later, if you want to take part in the Olympics, I'm afraid they won't try." Well, that's why I also had the chance to throw out something like a Selios report, right? In my year group and my friends, no one answered. They are more responsive if, for example, I give them issues like, ee, issues like, ee, maybe dating and things like that. They are more like ee responded.

[01:13:38]But when it comes to issues like their country, it's like, yeah, that's it for my year group, which consists of more than 280 students. I want to ask, what can we students do?

[01:13:52]Because we might not be able to demonstrate.

[01:13:54]We want to speak out, but there are obstacles from parents, maybe from the school, maybe, right? Yes, that's all, Sis. Thank You.

[01:14:09]Thank you Arkan. There are more? There aren't any yet. Hey, there were two questions earlier about the counter narrative and also about the anxiety of young people who want to speak up but face obstacles or worries about not being able to get a career or go to school, get a scholarship, and all that.

[01:14:32]Anyone want to respond first?

[01:14:37]Okay, ee good, thanks for the question. Earlier there were two questions ee what can we do and about counter narratives and how to level students. So for the narrative from civil society, yes, it is clearly necessary, because why? because ee we also need a different narrative from ee what has been issued by the government.

[01:15:02]How do we need to create a collective, we need to collect documentation, collect data, and also make releases that can support democracy and civil society like that. Because if we move alone, the impact may not be visible, but if we move together, it will be much more visible than if we walk alone. The goal becomes clearer. also ee can together achieve common goals. Well, regarding the school level, perhaps parents have concerns for school children. Because of what?

[01:15:38]Since long ago, we have been taught to obey, to be good, to not be disobedient, and to not be critical.

[01:15:46]But being critical is necessary because it is how we sharpen our way of thinking. Maybe if you're in high school you can start by joining Kamisan. Sometimes on Thursdays there are also junior high or high school students who come from nearby schools.

[01:16:02]Then you can also map the teachers at the school.

[01:16:05]Who is the teacher who is then ee quite okay in supporting democracy? for example, civics teachers are usually like that or sociology teachers.

[01:16:13]Well, for some people who may not be familiar with civil liberties issues, not everyone can immediately jump into them so clearly, for example, the August issue or the rape issue. Maybe it's too much for them. So you can start by sharing through fiction like the sea tells stories or start from films like that. Is there anything else you want to add?

[01:16:38]Bain?

[01:16:39]Okay. Hey, this is just my experience. Hey, Amira just said that several schools have already held discussions. One of them is Santa Ursula school on Jalan Pos and in BSD. There was a corruption session. several times calling, it seems ICW also had something about democracy and also about rape. Dimas from KontraS, yes, Dimas was invited, then ee, several, so it started with a discussion, but the discussion was light. So what is democracy, what is corruption, how do we do what movements at the junior high school level, at the high school level we also hold discussions. Well, Amnesty International has just launched a project on how teachers can teach about human rights.

[01:17:42]So what's your name? You can go to the teachers who can at least talk to you about human rights.

[01:17:52]Try registering with Amnesty and we have done this several times, eh, not me, but eh, what activists at Amnesty do, eh, what human rights training with teachers? So, there are some events or agendas that you can participate in, okay?

[01:18:17]Then ee, what is it that YLBHi also does, eh, training. I used to have a long time ago about gender and women's rights like that. But I help some schools especially Catholic schools to do ee campaigns especially in ee apa on Human Rights Day 10 December. Then, from the lady, what were her recent agendas in Jogja? Coincidentally, I live in Jogja. In Jogja, there was just something called the Yogyakarta Art Festival and at the Yogyakarta Art Festival, they provided information on how to make zin for young people and provided a risu machine. Then there were 3 days every morning they were given a course on how to make a genie. you provide the paper.

[01:19:16]And what I saw, coincidentally, my son who was the coordinator, almost all the students were talking about human rights violations, talking about militarism, talking about Prabowo like this and sometimes it was really funny, they made sketches of me, sometimes beyond my thinking, yes, who is my age, but I saw it, ha, it was extraordinary, yes, even high school students were talking about something called anti-tank, talking about war, talking about how Prabowo, ee me me what, ee, how many jets and all that was made into a zin. Zin knows, right?

[01:20:01]So, zin is a campaign method for young people and it is now very popular in Jogja. You can come to a community called Kunci Cultural Study, bring a piece of paper, what do you have an idea about zin? Already. Then there is Mbak, there is now something that has appeared called anti-tank music, anti-tank music, anti-military music.

[01:20:31]So there are a lot of ideas, agendas, movements that are outside the mainstream, which are carried out by young people. Well, you can join in without having to make it yourself. But earlier, like Amira, Mbak Amira said that she could join in on Thursdays first, right? Later after that what's there what's there what's there. So there are so many ideas now and I see the creativity of young people today to fight it is extraordinary. It just depends on how we sew them together, what kind of support we give them. That's number one. I think that's the narrative of the match, I think it's important.

[01:21:24]We were talking about me earlier, perhaps more precisely, I was talking about electoral democracy, Foud democracy, hybrid regimes and so on. Oh, but I was also inspired by Mrs. Ita talking about fascism. Hey, I think we also need to really consider the dangers and potential presence. Today, if I may tell you a little story, last month I was outside Indonesia in a country, and I found a leaflet that said early warning signs of fascism.

[01:22:02]Eh, so this is an early sign of fascism that I've actually seen on social media. I also googled it again and I easily found it. Friends can also look for the main point, the main point is that the leaflet only provides pointers about where fascism can be detected, right? There are many, but if I may give an example. Firstly, there is no respect for human rights, human rights are rampant sexism, right?

[01:22:35]Angry sexism. Mrs. Ita told me a long story about that earlier. Control Mia controlled mass media. I have also submitted the report on the Multtauli Project, which will likely be a series. I don't know how much more but it shows that. Then there is rampant corruption and cronyism. We at ICW have just launched this issue, eh, in the MBG case study of free nutritious meals. But of course it's not just limited to MBG.

[01:23:05]other projects and ee there are still many other aspects like that. And the last thing I'll repeat is election fraud.

[01:23:14]Election fraud is occurring, and it has already happened to us in 2024, both during the pre- election nomination process and during the election itself. Money politics is rampant. Well, I think a counter narrative to that is important.

[01:23:29]Not only is it important, but we have to do it, right? So that fascism is not only in Indonesia. In Indonesia, of course, for us, because we live in Indonesia, right? But globally we can also join the current to oppose fascism itself. Because the good news is we are not alone. Fascism that has begun ee what is it called? the bridge of the nose has started to be visible or even more than the bridge of the nose.

[01:23:55]It happens in other countries too.

[01:23:58]America, for example. This has already happened in other countries. So there is a global trend of fascism starting to rise again and if that happens, maybe we will be like the 1900s or what? 30s when Hitler ee came to power and it spread to various countries.

[01:24:19]Not only Germany, but also Spain, Japan and other countries.

[01:24:23]There was Franco in Spain, there was Hirohito in Japan, and then there was Soeharto in Indonesia for 32 years. So the good news is that we are not alone, but the bad news is that there is a very high chance that we will experience that again. It could even be worse in this era of information technology. And once again the counter discourse is important. How do you do it?

[01:24:50]It can vary. For NGOs like mine, what do we do today or do we create social media and so on. But there's no need to imitate us. Friends themselves can decide. Friends who can ee can know better.

[01:25:06]Friends who know better, that's how it should be done. Whether it's through cultural means, maybe through music, maybe through films, or just chatting with friends like that. It is also an attempt to present a counter-discourse. So [snort] ee that's once again important and must be done. Ee and if earlier I wanted to add about what is called ee complaints, I really understand those complaints. I really admire that awareness emerged even in high school. I was in high school and perhaps only recently became aware of it. Even then, I don't have the courage or ability to do anything. only then in my lectures did I do something that was a bit naughty, huh? Ee but that also comes with challenges that are not easy.

[01:26:04]Fear is definitely there, but I always believe that what must be fought is fear itself. Was the fear earlier that ee mas wouldn't get a scholarship or would be scolded by his parents, or would his parents be worried or other things? ee was afraid and embarrassed too. We've said something to our friends and none of them responded, that's okay, the important thing is that we believe in what we're doing and that what we're doing is right. So just stay consistent with what you do. Don't be afraid and whatever the challenge, just face it. That's it from me regarding the two questions.

[01:26:47]Okay, thank you Mas Egi. I think there's still a little time left. If anyone still has questions, please ask. Oh yes.

[01:26:55][snorts] Asalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Good afternoon.

[01:27:06]Let me introduce myself, my name is Ilan.

[01:27:09]I am a child from North Sulawesi, precisely in East Bolamondo Regency.

[01:27:19]Talking about reform, why do I mention the name of my region? I took a little sample [clears throat] of the eras. Hey, several times I tried asking mothers, fathers, aunts, and uncles in my area.

[01:27:41]It turns out that in their heads, they saw the reform era as ordinary and nothing to be too proud of.

[01:27:51]I don't know why people in my area say that, but they are actually more proud of the New Order era, where they said that some populist programs reached them materially and physically, even though they didn't know that the compensation was actually their right.

[01:28:19]until I feel that it turns out that what is being implemented by the current government is a populist program, maybe I have left North Sulawesi in September, maybe now it has also become a new virus that can indicate this era of autocracy in my area that it turns out this is better than reform which maybe in terms of rights we can really, really in our era of reform, democracy is still quite possible, but we don't know whether in this era of autocracy, ee, that right will be revoked, taken as an obligation to be paid to find their new rights, namely populist programs from the government.

[01:29:11]I don't know whether that's true or not.

[01:29:15]In June 2024 we founded a coffee shop called Minor Rigin.

[01:29:23]Sorry I called it eh brand. This is not just a coffee shop, but this is a form of decentralization. Actually a form of decentralization.

[01:29:32]Said Betran Russell in the book authority and Individual. He said that if centralization feels too bad, then just decentralize it. you guys make a new collective. So we made a coffee shop where yesterday on the 2nd we held a pig watching party and yesterday I still have the video of us being visited by 20 military personnel.

[01:30:03]I don't know whether this is true or not. Since I watched the film Pig Party at ICW yesterday and several times also the words and sentences of Mrs. Yul, one of the activists in Sangihe when I was at Sakti School in Manado, have been ringing in my mind. I still remember 2024 clearly. Ms. Yul said, "I'm not surprised why people in the regions finally thought that we should just decentralize."

[01:30:36]The most extreme decentralization has become a separatist movement. Sometimes I have one of the most important reflections after watching the reflection of this pig party film, I'm sorry I know this can't be justified, but in my heart I said, "Is it possible that OPM is the last guard to protect the land of Papua?"

[01:30:59]But I don't know whether it's true or not. But this is the mindset of local people who feel that the government is that strong and that skilled, so they don't shoot one head, they shoot with one populist program that targets everyone in the region and makes it a new image and as if it is something good for the people in the region. We do n't know, I don't know if this is the same as the thoughts of friends who may have been in the city since childhood.

[01:31:35]But as a local child, I really feel that. I still conclude to this day that some separatist movements may not be wrong. The state may be the one who is taking it the wrong way.

[01:31:47]Ee can be opened if you have Instagram.

[01:31:54]Our coffee shop was brought to be written as a minor country because we feel that the centralization of this republic, this country, this nation is too evil for us who are in the regions and we feel that we must stand alone even in remote areas. Just that. I don't know if this is a question. What is clear is that my attitude can also be considered as kelukesah. Thank you, sir.

[01:32:23]Asalamualaikum warahmatullah wabarakatuh.

[01:32:26]Peace be upon you.

[01:32:28]Thank you Ilan. There are more? There aren't any yet. Ee at the same time so that it can close like that yeah. Hey, later I want to ask for feedback from the panelists. That's a little response from Ilan. Thank You.

[01:32:43]Well, in essence, it seems to be talking about the reactions that arise when there are attempts at autocracy, right? So it concentrates power in one person.

[01:32:51]So one of the reactions could be to create such enclaves, or what sites are there to reject this domination? Well, in relation to that, ee as a closing statement, ee all my friends, ee as a closing statement, that's it. If we reflect on this discussion, we more or less agree that reform never started or at least has failed. In such a context, we as a civil society movement certainly don't need to have a magic answer like that. But if you can retrospectively learn backwards. From the panelists' perspective, is there one thing that could be a priority in the midst of our chaos yesterday? It was very clear that there were many attempts to disrupt it.

[01:33:43]So we have no time to defend ourselves from these attacks.

[01:33:47]In that context, it might be a preview of what this regime will be like in the future.

[01:33:52]What kind of things could be a kind of priority for us to move? That topic may be, that method may be, but what is clear is that it is just an idea for us to brainstorm, ee, just to come up with ideas, not a definite answer or one of them. You can start with Mas Ei. Please, Mr. Egi.

[01:34:11]Okay. I'm still thinking about it actually, but the first thing that comes to mind is the issue of rights.

[01:34:18]My work is eradicating corruption, but without human rights, I wouldn't be able to do that work. I might when reporting cases, uncovering corruption cases, uncovering potential conflicts of interest.

[01:34:35]If my basic rights are not guaranteed, I will not be able to do that. I could be jailed, I could be arrested, you know. Or when I demonstrate, I could also be arrested like my friends last August. Thousands of friends who are the same as me actually work. They are also essentially performing a supervisory function. They demonstrated because they were disappointed, because they had complaints that were very closely related to their lives, they took to the streets. But basically the state's response was not a positive response, but rather a repressive response that they received. So I don't know whether this is appropriate or not. For me, it is also important to really think about human rights in this era. That's possible.

[01:35:31]Thank you, Mas Ii, Ms. Amira, please go ahead.

[01:35:34]Okay, thank you. For me it is important to distribute knowledge.

[01:35:39]Maybe not everyone has the same understanding of an issue.

[01:35:43]Moreover, how to maintain the security of individuals both physically and digitally. We often see, maybe recently, like in the August action against the waves, there were waves of arrests where many people were unfamiliar with it. What it is for the system, how to use VPN, when the data or photos or videos should be done, issued. Because remembering that in the arrests of the wave of action, people who upload photos on their personal Instagram or even in chats can be subject to disciplinary action. So, it is important for each of us to take care of ourselves, remembering that the front line of security is ourselves.

[01:36:28]Maybe there is a link here, maybe in regional networks there are also coalitions that can help if there is criminalization. But still, we all have to understand that we can all be criminalized and how to deal with it.

[01:36:41]Thank You.

[01:36:42]Thank you, Amir.

[01:36:43]Yes Ee as a historian, [snort] I founded a political course that started from the archives.

[01:36:55]So I call it an archive for resistance. So I have been collecting for almost 10 years now, I have been collecting resistance archives, movement archives, thought archives, ee [snorts] from several countries, I have collected them to then become part of the Archive for Resistance. And this Archive Foristance is a new phenomenon in Asia. So we have a very strong network in several countries to exchange archives with each other, right? Because it turns out that the resistance movement from the pre-65 era exchanged archives and knowledge.

[01:37:49]I am very happy because a few years ago I went to the Philippines, it turns out that the movements, at least when I was a student at UGM, I joined the ASA AS Association Student Asian Association Student, it was a progressive critical student movement, so we were sent to the Philippines, we were sent to Malaysia, we were there, ee, we participated in the Timor Leste movement, ee, for the independence of Timor Leste, or something like that. So, from my experience as a student who was active in student movements, especially in Asia, we then collected the archives again and archived them. There is an archiving method for resistance.

[01:38:47]So students can come to me, I have a collective called the archives room and history section, okay? So later you will be able to know how to move, for example, the Tanmalaka movement with Hose Rizal. Tanmalaka, Hose Rizal, studied with Tanaka for the movement in the Philippines and there is an archive for that. There is an archive that can be read. So it is important for us to recall or recall memories of past struggles. And if we look at it, oh, this is the same as how those movements were built. Ee then ee Soekarno Hatta Sahrir's political course called International Solidarity.

[01:39:36]International Solidarity. I just got home from Bandung this afternoon. I talk about what international solidarity is. We cannot only operate in Indonesia. Ca n't. We have to cross the border.

[01:39:52]This student that I am currently studying, why is it that none of the students are currently going to cross to Manila, where are they going? To Malaysia. Back in my time at UGM in the 1900s, we used to go back and forth.

[01:40:08]We even went to South Africa, there was that, there was that, Hilmar Farid, the former Director General of Culture, was one of the people who wanted to travel around, he was also a student, we students moved there, so how do we now recall the memory of the movements through the archives at UGM M. Incidentally, I teach law students, we always read Bung Karno's speeches to learn about internationalism and law.

[01:40:52]So they read when I teach because I teach history. So it is important for us to recall memory because eh, will the current government erase important memories?

[01:41:10]We no longer learn about how Sir ee was in diplomacy, how Hatta was economically, how even the most recent one, yesterday I was invited to a discussion with Tempo about the views of Prabowo Sumitro's father with, for example, Sarbini Sumawinata on the people's economy, which can be seen from their archives.

[01:41:40]So, let's take a look back at this historical journey. That's very important. Very important. There is anti-colonial, there is anti-what? Ee anti-colonial, there is about discrimination, there is how we stand or diplomacy, all of that is there. So, if we borrow a new theory from a feminist named Belhu, we should try to see our political location in the intersection of these issues.

[01:42:19]Where is our political location? What are the intersections?

[01:42:21]Corruption, discrimination, neocolonialism.

[01:42:25]That is the student's job, this is the student's job. Even what you said earlier in Sulawesi is nothing new. When I go around now everyone breathes the same. Want a federal state. Hey.

[01:42:41]Yes Want to let go. Because of the distribution of wealth, what distribution? Mem wealth ya. Wealth is not the same or not the same. My friends in Sulawesi always say, oh, you have it easy in Java, but now we see that Morowali Nickel is crying, and our friends there have said, why should we separate it? Because the results of Morowali Nickel are not for them to live in poverty, they are all brought to the center by this oligarchy.

[01:43:26]So, it has become the breath of almost all of Papua, even in Kalimantan.

[01:43:33]Kalimantan is all about letting go.

[01:43:37]But how and what is our thinking. But we learn from history. We see that it is decentralized.

[01:43:48]Are we not also transferring power to local oligars, their local feudal lords? This is also important, you know. This is not something that will mean that in Papua they will be equal because there are many local oligarchs who also have collusion with or are connected to international finance. Hey.

[01:44:15]That. So we have to see, we have to try, ee, to see our political location, where the intersection is, how this correlates.

[01:44:27]I think that's what is important for all of us. And here, young friends, we return to our national imagination. How do we want to bring Indonesia to what it is like?

[01:44:42]That's it.

[01:44:44]Thank you, Mrs. Ita. With that concludes our discussion this afternoon.

[01:44:49]Thank you to all my friends who have joined from the beginning, both on Resonance and on the YouTube channel. Of course, thank you also to Mas Egi Amira and Bu Ita for the discussion. Well, with that I close. Good night.

[01:45:03]You may applaud.

[01:45:15]H