Effective screenwriting involves strategic ambiguity, where filmmakers intentionally leave narrative gaps that audiences can fill with their own interpretations, creating deeper engagement and discussion. This technique, demonstrated in Obsession, transforms passive viewing into active participation, as viewers theorize about plot holes and character motivations, ultimately driving word-of-mouth success and repeat viewings.
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Jeff Barker Live on MIKEroaggress’d!
Added:[music] Heat.
[music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> I thought we were having a nice day.
>> What's up, fam? Welcome to Sunday Night Microest. It is my absolute honor to welcome this guy. I am so excited for this. I'm so honored. Everybody, welcome award-winning screenwriter, script consultant of obsession, and self-described nepo daddy, father of Curry Barker, Jeff Barker.
>> Hey, Mike. I can't hear you, so I don't know if there's something on your end. I But I I I read your lips. It was sound like you said some really nice things.
So, [laughter] >> um, one second.
>> Okay.
>> Can you do you have the right speaker selected?
>> I heard the intro, but I couldn't hear you.
>> One sec. Sorry, technical difficulties.
>> Oh, I see a message. Let's see here.
>> Can you guys hear me in the chat?
>> Do I have the right speaker selected?
Um, well, I was hearing you before here.
Let's see.
>> Sorry, chat. We're gonna figure out.
>> I mean, I have everything going.
Yeah. Audio A wireless law. That's what I'm wearing.
Uh, man, I don't know.
>> That's so weird. It was just working >> because I could hear you before we started before we recorded.
>> Um, sorry chat. We're going to get this figured out.
>> See here.
Maybe try reloading. Okay. Yeah, let me get let me get out and I'll get back on it. Sorry.
>> Okay. Sorry, guys. It would not be an episode of Microaggress without technical difficulties, but we shall figure it out. Hey to all of our chat friends, by the way. Thanks for being here. How are you guys doing?
>> Yeah, that's so weird. Of course, everything works perfectly until you go live and then there are problems. But we're going to get them straightened out.
>> Let's see. Can you hear me now?
>> YEAH.
>> WE GOT IT. [laughter] WELL, pretend we're starting now.
Welcome the incredible I guess you could read my lips. The the amazing [laughter] awardwinning screenwriter, self-described Nepo daddy, script consultant obsession, Jeff Barker.
>> Oh, all right. My Yeah, appreciate it.
Trying to match your energy. Like, you're one of a kind, man. This is so awesome to be here.
>> Oh, thanks. How you been, dude?
>> Good. We just finished shooting a short right here in Fair Hope, Alabama. my son Riley who's a cinematographer uh and my other son Jeffrey who's in the business they came and then you know we assembled a team of Avengers about 10 people it's a really short uh a really small uh gorilla style shoot seven pages probably 10 minutes but my daughter starred in it and and that was really amazing she's seven years old so kind of doing the same thing I did with her that I did with the boys when they were little except now with better equipment And you know, maybe we know what we're doing a little bit better. So, >> you So, you filmed stuff with your sons when they were young, too.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, not professionally, but we would that was what they wanted to do. That was their fun was going around and, you know, making skits, doing videos, putting stuff up on YouTube. my Mccuri and his brothers, they had a a YouTube channel called Popcorn Culture that uh was really good to them because they, you know, they they had a pretty good following, but just locally like they were like little local celebrities at their middle schools and then at their high schools because everybody followed and um and that's really where where Curry and and his brothers honed their craft. And then Curry went to when he moved to Hollywood at 18 and met Cooper and they started That's a Bad idea. He just kept doing the exact same thing that he was doing at home. Uh but and then you know just got better and better and the content got the writing got better, the content got better. So you know he's not an overnight success is you know 20 years in the making of doing this sort of thing and even eight years in Hollywood doing it to get to this point. But yeah, my doing it doing it with my daughter, it did feel like brought back a lot of memories of when the boys were young and you know, just I I I was involved as much as I could be.
You know, when they were really young, I was involved a lot, but then when they got in middle school, it wasn't so cool for dad to be involved and I didn't want them to uh you know, I want them to still think it was awesome. So, I backed away and lost and uh you know, they would still let me be involved sometimes.
>> But >> how many kids do you have? I feel like there are so many barkers.
>> Yeah. Well, I have the three boys. Uh Curry's the middle, Riley's the youngest, Jeffreey's the oldest, and uh and then I started over and I have two girls. I have a seven-year-old and a two-year-old.
>> Oh, that's amazing. You guys are becoming like the new Jackson family.
[laughter] >> Yeah, it's um it's been great. You know, raising kids in your 40s is different than in your 20s. And also um raising girls is different than raising boys. At least for me, it is. It's been a whole new experience.
>> So, I'm just really thankful. Oh, that's amazing. Well, dude, you had mentioned the Avengers. You took the words out of my mouth. News came out today. In its fifth weekend, Obsession made more money than the Avengers Endgame made in its fifth weekend.
>> Imagine if somebody would have told you that a couple months ago.
>> No, no, it's insane. I mean, every day it's like a new record, you know? It's inching up on 300 million, which that that number alone is just mind-blowing.
And uh no, I I it's um if anybody would say they expected this, they'd be lying to you. It's um what what happened here was uh it's a good movie and Focus Features did a great job of promoting it and the marketing that they did and also Curry and Cooper had their own base of fans that came that were going to see whatever they did no matter what. That was the first week and really, you know, the first week overperformed. I think they originally projected it to make 8 to 10 million. It made 17. When I say week, I mean weekend >> and but then after that it's just been word of mouth as you know. I mean it's just like keeps going and going and going because people go see it and they tell their friends and they or they bring their friends to go see it and people are always messaging me saying, you know, I've seen it eight times. I've seen it 12 times. I just like it's hard to believe uh the the word of mouth.
>> Oh wow. That's great. That's a good number. You know, four is a good because it is a movie that you want to see it more than once because it takes a while to digest all that the themes and things that that um you know that this that the movie is actually about besides just the fun and the action of it. Um and then there's also a lot of Easter eggs and hidden things in there that it just takes a couple of watches to see it. So that that is another reason too, repeat viewings. And uh no, it's just it's it's just been a dream come true. I was uh I was lucky I got to go see it maybe like a month or two before it came out at the Florida Film Festival. Oh, >> okay.
>> And was just like, "Oh my god." Let I I said to my friend after I'm like, "My ass cheeks did not unclench for two hours." Like, which by the way, I think that should be the review on the poster, [laughter] >> right? Yeah. Where they pull the letter box reviews for the for the commercials.
[laughter] They could pull that one.
>> That's funny.
>> Did so well on the on the circuit, you know. Um, I think what happens is a movie goes to TIFF or Sundance or wherever and it gets bought out and whoever buys it, whether it's Neon A24, Focus or whoever, they're really hesitant about putting stuff continuing on in the festival circuit because they don't want to get a whole bunch of negative reviews before the movie comes out and then it's like never even had a chance. And that's just totally normal.
I mean, that's how the business works.
Luckily, Obsession already had some commitments to festivals that they had to honor. And you know, you go in there and like with your fingers crossed, and it was nothing but positive reviews from movie goers and critics. And so then they just kept by the end, Focus was putting it in every festival it could find because it was just adding to that number of reviews. And the letter box, uh, you know, was like up at 4.5 at one point. Now I think it's settled at 4.1 because it has so many reviews, like nothing's gonna move it now, which is awesome. And um and then, you know, the Rotten Tomato score and all that stuff that really helps in the beginning, but now it's just all word of mouth and people who have just been meaning to go see it and they haven't seen it yet or repeat viewers, those are the people seeing it now.
>> It's just super exciting.
>> Sea Striker says, "I just got out of it right now. I hope you loved it, fans.
Can't wait to buy the 4K and rewatch it over and over." Yeah. Also, a very special guest in the chat, my dad.
Glad you finally figured out how to sign into your YouTube.
>> Nice. So, this is a great one for him to join. This is the dad This is the dad episode.
>> Well, that's what I loved so much about seeing your channel is like my dad is a musician. So, we grew up I made a horror fan out of him since I was a kid. We grew up >> I was singing in bands and he would write out the sheet music for me. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I just it's I love seeing you guys together. What a great dad you clearly are.
>> No, we're all very close and Curry's very gracious about including people in his projects and not being like, you know, jealous or worried about credit and all that sort of thing. And he just wants to put the best product out and his vision is he's he understands his vision. no one's going to talk him off of it, but he's also open to hearing opinions about things and um and I, you know, he has no problem telling me, "No, Dad, you're wrong or I I don't agree and that's not what I'm going for here." And I really appreciate that. That's what makes this the creative relationship work because at the end of the day, I'm still his dad. So, like if I felt like I if I felt like anything I said would overlay him away from his vision, then I wouldn't say anything. But I know I can say things because he'll think about it.
He'll consider it. And then he'll say, "I hear what you're saying, but no, it's not what I'm going for." Or he'll say, "Yeah, that is a different way to think about it. Let me think about that a little more." You know, that's usually how it goes.
>> Does it ever happen in reverse where he doesn't listen to you and then realizes you were right? Because that's always what happens to me with my dad. I feel like I never listen to him the first time, but he always ends up being right about everything. So annoying.
>> Well, I'm not right about everything, for sure. Especially with in this business. He's he's he's the expert. But he uh but yeah, I mean there have been times where we we have talked about things and he's disagreed and then eventually came around to it. But usually because there's other people bringing it up too and um or maybe he's just had time to digest it and think about it, see it from a different way. He's really good at seeing things from like multiple angles and being very empathetic about the human condition. And that's, you know, I think people feel that when they see his stuff, not just Obsession, but his shorts and even the sketches, even though they're they're fun and humorous, there's usually what makes them work is there's always a misdirection. There's always a turn. And um, you know, they go to some dark places and, you know, you can see his thumbrint on that, you know, and Cooper, too. I mean, Cooper's highly involved with all that, but um, it's nice that to be that young and already have a voice. Yeah, that's what's been so cool about seeing obsession blow up.
Like I've been watching for I've been a fan for years with first the chair and then milk and cereal. So this is so crazy. So before we get into all the specifics of it, I just personally want to say thank you guys so much because you have truly given millions of people, not just aspiring writers and filmmakers, but just people who want to be able to see original, creative, complex movies and go see them in a movie theater. you have truly given hope to so many people with this.
>> Well, well, thanks for saying that. I mean, you know, Curry is really uh it matters to him. You know, he wants to tell original stories and he has so many ideas and it's just a matter of getting to them all. Um, you know, and then and then he's going to get to reimagine Texas Chainsaw Masker, which is a whole other challenge because it is pre-existing IP, but you know, he'll be able to put his spin on it and he won't make everybody happy with that one because people already have their own thoughts and expectations, but he's just going to make his version and it'll, you know, it'll it'll be great.
>> Oh, I can't wait for that. I heard him say in an interview, he hasn't started writing it yet. Otherwise, I would be crying for information from you. Tell me everything. He's still in the the the blue sky phase where there are no bad ideas. You know, he's constantly jotting down things in his phone, coming up with ideas. He's also doing his homework, watching all the not all, not only all the movies, but the video games, the comic books, like anything is in the world. And >> it gets rough in the middle of there. A few of them.
>> Yeah. But, you know, it's still that stuff's still important. and that and some of that's, you know, there's good moments and all that, even if it if it didn't all land, but uh he just wants to know whether he does any of that at all.
He just wants to know he needs to be an expert in in the world. And that's that's where he's at right now, >> you know. Plus, he's busy editing anything but Ghost. So, that that's really taking up most of his time.
>> I'm so exc I'm so excited for all of these. Well, I want to ask, do you remember when it was that Curry initially came to you with the idea for Obsession?
>> Yeah. I mean, well, maybe not the exact time, but it was something he had talked about for a while. Um, it was during the era of uh [sighs and gasps] it was probably after the chair, but before the chair was like really big, like it was out already.
>> Oh, so it was even before Milk and Cereal.
>> Oh, yeah. Well, it h you know, it happened because of the chair. the chair, you know, blew up. It um you know, people like you, the horror people who, you know, care about horror movies discovered it, started talking about it, and then it was like a snowball. Then other people would go watch it, and then they would talk about it, and it just grew and grew, and now it's up to over 10 million views on YouTube. But in the beginning, it was uh it was something that Hollywood took notice of, and he started meeting with producers who were interested in him developing a feature for the chair. And uh and he he would do that, but he was he had already started thinking and chewing on this idea of obsession. And so whenever he would have those meetings, he would say, "Okay, you know, I I I can develop a feature for the chair, but here's this other idea that I'm really passionate about. Do you want to hear it?" And he's like, "Yeah."
You know, most people would be like, "Yeah." You know, um and then T-shop, the production company out of the UK, um you know, they they were they were like, "Okay, let's make it." So they gave him a tiny tiny budget and um then he you know wrote this wrote the screenplay and it was um this was a long process to get to where we are now. But it wasn't really milk and cereal that did it. It was the chair. But you know during all that time he continued making warnings and you know some of the other shorts and the the milk and cereal came out.
Vaccero was shot a long time before, but he held on to it for like maybe two years almost before it actually went up on YouTube.
>> Oh wow. Yeah. One of the things from So, by the way, also for anyone watching, follow Jeff. All of his links are below.
His YouTube channel is amazing. That's where you break down a lot of scripts.
And one of the cool things on your channel's been getting to see the original, one of the earlier drafts of Obsession, the script, and seeing what changed and how it evolved throughout the whole process.
>> Yeah. Well, thanks for saying that.
Yeah, I my yeah, my podcast is breaking down screenplays and trying to see what's unique about them and interesting and what we can learn from them. And every screenplay, the screenwriter has to teach the reader how to read their individual screenplay. So, every time you pick up a script and read it, it's a whole new experience. Even sometimes if it's the same screenwriter that you've read before, it's still some, you know, again, you can see their voice, their fingerprint, but it's still a new experience every time of exactly what are the mechanics of this screenplay, how am I supposed to digest it? And right now, I'm in I am breaking down obsession. You I didn't plan on doing it now. I wanted to wait closer to awards season and then bring it out, you know, use my uh Nepo dad card and bring it out first before everybody else. But it leaked online. It's out there in the world. So, anybody can read it. You know, any of your viewers can read it.
But it's uh it is an early version. It's my you know, I haven't I have all the drafts and I didn't compare it, but I'm guessing it's like a second or third draft and u and nowhere near the end. Um but I decided to break that one down just because that's the one that exists in the world right now. And it's also really cool because you can I can talk about, you know, not just what's in there, but what was changed in the future drafts and then also ultimately what end ups on screen and why that was.
And uh the movie is like an hour and 40 something minutes and my the first 50 pages of breaking it down was two hours.
So it's like four hours of screenplay breakdown over an hour and 40 minute movie.
>> No, we're glad you do. It's great. One a big thing I feel like I've learned from reading the script of obsession is really efficiency in storytelling because the whole thing it's not even a hundred pages. So there is not a line wasted because I've some things that I've written where it's like >> it's going on for infinity pages at this point.
>> So >> yeah that's that's that's the trick. You know it's it's a chore to read screenplays. I love reading screenplays.
Uh, but most people don't. And even professionals who do it for a living, whether it be professional readers for a production company or agents or managers or producers, um, you know, it takes an effort. You're you're going to put in a good two hours to sit there and read this thing. So, uh, you want to make it as easy as possible for them. The mistake that a lot of screenwriters make is that they try to take the image in their head and put it down on the paper, which sounds like that's what you should be doing, but in fact, it's counterintuitive because there's no way anyone could see the image that you have in your head. And the more information you just spew and spew and spew on there trying to create this image, it's just going to it's going to clog everything up. It's going to make it where it's hard to see. So the trick is to take the ingredients, all the things that make the scene and put it on the page in such a way that the reader can take those and decode them and create their own image in their mind. And it won't be exactly what you have as a screenwriter, but it can be close enough that they can easily have this movie going in their head. And that's how when you read a screenplay, you get to the end and you clearly saw a movie in your head all the way through or most of the way through, that's when you know it was a good screenplay.
That's why. And so like I was saying about um obsession changing so much from the earlier script that we read, one of the things I know in the actual movie, [clears throat] one of the things that people talk a lot about is the sex scene in it. It was 10 times worse in this draft. It was so I assume they didn't want to make Bayer that horrible just yet so soon in the movie, but I gasped when I read what an asshole he was in the original.
>> And it's earlier, too. It's is not even when it happens in the movie. I mean that it happens in the script again and then too, but what you're talking about is the first night. Uh I believe is when it gets out of hand and um and he he realizes that she maybe it's not the first night. I'm not sure. I I have to go back and read it. I haven't got to that part of the breakdown. That's in the second.
>> No, no, it was in this one. So maybe it is the first time. But yeah, so it is much worse because uh he clearly knows what's going on and he >> she changes back for anyone who's ever she changes back and he goes, "Oh, that's okay. I don't mind."
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it wouldn't have been the first night. It maybe it is right after the dinner. Um but it is way worse and that we was a lot of discussions about just how far >> was it safe to take that because you you want to push the envelope. You want to put things on screen that really make people feel uncomfortable, but you also don't want to do something that victimizes the viewer or puts them in an uncomfortable spot. Um, where, you know, it's just like almost a personal offense to watch something. So, um, I think it landed just where on this film I think it landed just where it needed to. Well, and I think it goes to show what a great and complex film it is that there is all of this debate and discussion about is he the villain, is he a victim? Like it feels to me like it's been first of all just in general such a long time since we all had one movie that everyone is watching. Everyone It feels like now in many ways movies have become content and everyone's watching something different.
Um but let alone something that's complex where people are actually really discussing it and debating the themes of it.
>> Yeah. Right. You know, you have these blockbusters that come around like Oenheimer or even Barbie when it came out where the mass is like everyone is watching it. But uh but it maybe doesn't stir up as much conversation as this one because this one really hits on some very deep and themes that resonate especially for the Gen Z generation who you know grew up with basically uh shared trauma with COVID and just like the time of being away from their friends whether they were in high school or college having things in their lives canceled seeing for the first time how easily things could just be taken from you, you know, also having this fear of this unseen unknown thing that's just out in the air that can kill people that other recent generations didn't have that. So, uh, this collective trauma, Gen Z is, you know, in a position now to process all this and discuss all this through art. And that's where we're starting to see um not just with Obsession, but now I think this has opened the doors for Hollywood to trust more Gen Z filmmakers, hopefully more female ones as well, and we're going to get some great stories.
>> So, is that why you is that sort of it's kind of a trit question, but is that why you think obsession has resonated so deeply with people?
>> Yeah, I mean it does. You know, another thing he hits on is um you know, the fear of dating and especially told from a Gen Z's perspective. Uh you know, I'm not a Gen Z, but I'm a very observant person and uh I have friends who are Gen Z, obviously, Curry's crew and such. And I >> You're an honorary Jen Z.
>> Yeah. [laughter] I've observed some things that like I see how hard it is uh you know, for dating. It's all online. It's all curated. It's it's all like management like managing your image and there's this there's this underlying fear of saying the wrong thing being called out being cancelled being u embarrassed and so most I've seen many times where young people will meet each other like at a party or out at an outing and they'll really vibe and hit it off and then they won't take it to the next level. they'll just exchange information and and take that to take it online and it's a safe place, you know, and a lot of times maybe the female feels like it's a lot safer, you know, they're in a vulnerable situation. And then a lot of times for the man, the man and for the the woman, it's it's a it's a way to communicate and really like be very cautious about what you say. You know what I mean? So you don't say something and it's already out in the world, then you regret it.
Like you have time to think about it while you text it or message it. I I think I'm missing that, Jean. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, well, that's good, you know, but it's um I do think that that those fears show up in this film and everybody, whether they know it consciously or not, they are identifying with that. But I think the reason why people are talking about it so much, but beyond that, is is that Curry purposefully left a lot of holes in the in the script. not plot holes, but just anything that could be cut out. This is what you were talking about earlier about how lean the script is. All the fats been trimmed. You know, anything that could be be taken out and it doesn't affect the story. Then you get addition by subtraction. And so now you end up with the story that has a lot of these holes and things that all the exposition and things are taken away.
And so when you have these holes throughout the script, it's easy for the viewer to go in and start filling in those holes. And when you do that, you can connect all type of dots and things that you know weren't intended to be there, but they make sense. And it's really cool. So you have all these theories about things. You know, people who think Nikki was possessed by the cat, you know, all these things.
>> That's crazy. I was hearing I was hearing about that and I'm like the more they talk about it, I'm like this kind of makes sense.
>> Yeah, it makes sense. It's not true, but it makes sense because there's, you know, people are really digging into those holes and like and tying this stuff together and like if you it's sort of like conspiracy theory like there's enough information there that you can make it work and then when you start thinking about you're like wow that that must be true because it makes sense but things can make sense and not be true.
Uh yeah and >> and then you have competing theories where someone will draw one conclusion someone else will draw another conclusion. People are talking about these things, debating them, and that's just upping upping the the discourse, which is driving more and more people to go watch it or go see it again. I think that's another big part of it.
>> Yeah. I don't know what it is. It is just the most damn rewatchable movie [laughter] ever. I don't Maybe it is because you definitely do catch things on the second and third viewing. But one thing I've been dying to ask you about, I was watching an interview that you gave. I had no idea you wrote the uh Nikki's monologue, the Hanszel and Gretle one.
>> Yeah.
>> Party scene. Oh my god, Jeff. I'm not saying this because you're here. That is my favorite scene in the movie. That is always the part that So, this last time I went to go see it, >> I was very happy that the girl sitting next to me in the theater was like the chattiest woman in the world. I'm like, "Okay, this isn't a movie. This is just a group discussion now."
>> And that part especially, like everyone was just [laughter] dying.
That is that is twisted. Daddy's a little >> What inspired that? How did you think of it? Tell me everything.
>> Well, that's how I write. I write very deep, dark stuff, you know. I am I am twisted. And um I just like to push the envelope. And Curry came to me. This was the the very first thing that he came to me about Obsession when he started writing it. He said, you know, you're the uh short story writer in the family because I write short stories and novel manuscripts. That's what I did before I moved over to screenwriting. And he's like, I really want her voice to be different than my voice on the page. And that clearly came from someone else. So he's like, you know, would you be interested in writing? He's like, yeah, of course. And uh and so I wrote it. I can't remember if I came up with Hansel and Gretle or he told me write about Hansel and Gretle. I wish I could, but um somehow we landed on that and it just made a lot of sense. And one of the things that people I think sometimes miss about it or maybe just some inside information about it is that what's really going on there is that that short story was written by Freaky Nikki and she's clearly not, you know, that's not something that Nikki would write and she's to write that she's pulling deep down into Nikki's subconscious and pulling things out. Sort of like a dream. You know, when you have these things that happen in your dream that don't make sense, but then you wake up and you think about it, like, you know, there was like cheesecake in your dream and you're like, why? What was that?
Then you realize, oh, there was cheesecake in the break room two days ago. You know, stuff like that. So Nick, Freaky Nikki's pulling just little little bitty crumbs from Nikki's subconscious and building the story. And if you think of it like that, it all makes sense. You have this totally taboo relationship, this thing that is should not be happening. you have uh you know um Hansel or um Rele who is uh they're both they're stuck in the house. So you know you know not having the autonomy to to to move about. Um and then of course the brother sister relationship and the question of did did Nikki see uh Bear as a sibling or how you know like as as a brother as a friend. So, um, whether she did or not, you know, she's pulling all that and that's where the story comes from. And then just to, you know, if she's going to stand up there and talk for 45 seconds, it's got to be interesting. So, it needs to be as freaky as possible.
>> Oh, it's so that scene in particular is just where the writing and the acting and the directing is, it just all comes together so beautifully. [laughter] No, I thought the same thing though because the story that she's talking about is sort of like a brother sister relationship that gets perverted. And so I was thinking the same thing. That's sort of exactly what's happened with how Nikki sees Bear.
>> Yeah. Although, you know, again, when we talk about pull pulling those holes out of the story so people can fill in their own conclusion. You know, Curry purposefully didn't want it to be obvious if she liked Bear or not. you know, she says some things in the script and in the movie that, you know, if she likes a guy, he'll never know. She, you know, but, you know, was she talk was that a hint for Bear or was she just sort of just disclosing about her relationship with Ian? um you know for for every reason that she for every piece of evidence that we have in there that she would like bear there's enough in there to show that she wouldn't as well so that both sides can sort of like pick and choose and figure it out >> which is which is just what makes it even more relatable because when I first saw it I was at first oh yeah she's into him and then oh she's definitely not into him and it makes it even more relatable because we've all gone out with people who seem so interested and then they're not and you're like Why did they why' they do this then? Why did they say that? Why did they act like this? Like it's another thing that makes it relatable.
>> Yeah, it was really important for her to give that micro micro expression when she asked him directly like, "Do you like me?" You know, there's no beating around the bush. And he said, "No, we're we're friends. I like that we're friends." And she she does have a micro expression there where she's disappointed. So So she is clearly disappointed. And that was really important. But the question is why is she disappointed? Is she disappointed because I mean there's really three reasons she could be disappointed. One is that she likes him and she really was hoping he would say that he liked her and they could progress the relationship. Two is that she doesn't like him but that she uh wants him to ask so that she can say no and they can just move past that and hopefully still be friends. Or three, she doesn't like him, but she's afraid uh that, you know, by him saying that that maybe it would close the door on him possibly liking her and she likes the idea of him putting her on a pedestal, you know, because people can, you know, you can tell usually when someone likes you and it either makes you feel uncomfortable or you really like it. You like the attention, that sort of thing.
>> Oh, it's so good. That car scene, too.
This was another thing I didn't fully pick up on until the second time I saw it. But when she talks about her book that she's writing and she says it's not a romance, it's a love story. That's so po like that's the theme of the whole movie because has romantic feelings for her. But does he love her? I would say no because love is selfless. He never considers what's best for her.
>> And I just never thought of that before.
The the difference between love and romance.
>> Yeah, that's the thesis of the whole film. And there's a there's a after she talks about the the book and there's a whole monologue that was taken out is in the script which is really great where Nikki explains the difference between love and romance and Curry Curry really liked it. There's several versions of it. Uh but the the reason why it got taken out is just for time because Curry really wanted to get to the inciting incident which is the breaking of the one with Schwillow by a certain amount of time. And to do that you really had to like tighten it up in that first act.
And so some things like that had to go some things needed to go and then there were things like that which I think you know really add some value but also had to go just to keep the story moving. Uh, you know, if there were ever things in a director's cut, if there was ever a director's cut, you know, that would probably be something that would go back in so people could see that because it was really great.
>> Oh, I love it. But I I kind of like the fact that it's more ambiguous in the final cut because it makes you think more.
>> Um, yeah, I love I love this. Uh, Fans and said, "The discussion obsession has spurred reminds me of the discussion behind The Shining or John Carpenters, the thing."
>> Wow. this then uh he's been around a while. [laughter] [gasps] >> But uh yeah, those were those were those are I mean I love The Thing so much. I think it's a great movie. And of course, The Shining is like the the golden calf of horror movies. Um even though Stephen King doesn't didn't like it, but you know, it was a great movie. And uh now seeing Obsession move into these lists of like the the top 10 highest grossing horror movies of all time and uh just to be in the conversation with movies like that, it's just insane.
>> That's amazing. Um well, speaking of The One Wish Willow, is it what are your thoughts on is it inherently evil? Is it neutral?
>> Totally neutral.
>> You think?
>> Totally. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah.
because um well, you know, because if we're actually going to do an anthology series, it has to be neutral because if every episode was someone makes a wish and then something bad happens that b that's entertaining for about six episodes and then that's pretty boring.
So, what the the most interesting thing is that you don't somebody makes a wish, you don't know how it's going to turn out. Is it going to be are they gonna, you know, be tormented by their wish or, you know, what effect is it going to have? Is it going to be positive effect?
And but really I think Curry's position has always been that it's all about like what's in your heart when you make the wish and how does it is it a wish that serves you by taking something away from someone else or is it where you are serving others by giving a piece of yourself. That's probably where the safety is in the wish. Uh but like you know bear being killed because he wished for a billion dollars. I don't think that's true. I think he got killed because he walked into the wrong place at the wrong time. And um so it would have been interesting to see what the consequences were for Bear to wish for a billion dollars because that is a selfish wish. So probably would have gone pretty bad. But >> yeah, it's like here's your billion dollars and here's [laughter] your death.
>> Yeah, >> we should anthology series. Are you going to make an anthology series?
Because I would love to see you writing and directing at least some episodes.
>> I would too. I would too. Let's call Curry. Let's make it happen. No, I I I don't know. It's funny because it's something Curry and I had talked about and Curry brought it up. You know, it's the idea that he was playing around with because he was thinking about, you know, this works out. What do you do? Do you have an obsession too? Do you do, you know, an do something in the obsession world that's not these characters? I mean, there's a lot of options. And the thing he landed on that he thought was most interesting was an anthology series. And so, that is something he and I talked about. We'd even like u come up with ideas. He has a lot of ideas. I had ideas and um uh and then it was just in one of these interviews because you know you just talk and talk and talk for this press tour and he just like mentioned it like let it slip not you know not like it was a secret or anything he just he let he someone asked him about a sequel and he thought I think an anthology series would be a better idea and then the headlines just like exploded like everywhere he looked like the anthology series and it and now it's like this it's almost like you know there's just so much like heat and pressure about this is such a great idea, we should do it. Uh, you know, I don't know if it'll happen or not, but it's I think there's a lot of support for it if it's something he wants to do, but he's so busy, too. I mean, um, there there certainly is no rush to it because he's already got so many things on his plate.
>> Yes, we want it, though. [laughter] >> I know.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's a great idea.
>> Did you guys ever watch Tales from the Crypt back in the day? That was like my favorite show.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
>> I feel like we need a new one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, um um uh Ryan Cougler's coming out with the the new Twilight Zone, which uh or not Twilight Zone, XFiles. Yeah.
>> I'm excited for that.
>> Uh yeah. No, Jordan Peele did a a Twilight Zone thing for a while. Uh but those those type of things, those like oneoff episodes, those are always great.
And um the writer rooms for those are so fascinating because you're not continuing an A story and a B story.
Like every episode is a clean slate.
Like now what are we going to do, you know? Um uh well that was the Netflix one that that that we watched for years and years. And Black Mirror, you know, that's another anthology series that's >> has some pretty cool stuff. And some of those are hit and miss, you know, but when they hit they really hit.
>> Yeah. Um, I want to ask also, so speaking of the party scene, I just think of that Hansel and Gretle monologue, uh, Indie Never's acting is insane in that. So when you guys were filming it, was there any particular moment at the beginning that made you go, "Holy shit, she's good."
>> Um, well, I wasn't actually there for that scene, you know, I was in and out during shooting. I wasn't there that night, but I could tell you like I mean we knew we knew how how good Indie was right away when she was on set. She said she she was like saving a lot of it in the you know and in the rehearsals and the pre-production stuff. I mean she really gave it to us for audition and it was clear that that she that she had the goods. You know Curry auditioned so many women for this role because the movie only works if you have a good Nikki and a good bear. I mean really all four of the players ha are have to be good and they are they're all amazing. Um but you know Nikki really has to have has to be someone that's believable both you know just like in the everyday grounded way but also in this like over-the-top crazy way. So it's like finding someone who could flip that switch is is difficult.
a lot of the women would be good at one thing, one of those two. And then there were lots who could do both, but um but Indie was just really special. And um but then during rehearsals, she wouldn't really go there a lot because she wanted to save it, which turned out to be really smart.
>> And but then when when they started they shot the uh the bedroom stuff, that was the first the first scene that they shot and in Bear's bedroom. and she really went there, you know, and so I was like, "Wow, this is gonna be good." Yeah, she's she's a she's unbelievable. I really feel like I've said this a lot on the podcast. I feel like 10 years from now, people will watch this movie and they'll they won't believe that these four actors were all in the same movie.
You know how like when you watch an older movie and it's like four or five A-listers are there and you're like, "How do they get all these people in this movie?" I think this is going to be one of those because they're all going to go on to have unbelievable careers >> and and it doesn't get said enough how amazing Michael Johnston is in this because to make you still like this guy while he's doing the things that he does. Also, by the way, let me say nobody ever acknowledges this part that Bayer just so happens to look like Michael Johnston. So, in which case I find her actions completely reasonable.
>> I [laughter] would have acted the same way.
>> Yeah, he's a very good-looking guy, that's for sure. in and um you know in the script is like you know he's just like a very average looking guy. Well, it's a movie so you have to have a movie star.
>> Uh no, he's unbelievable. And you know I even did a post about it because uh talking about like he's so good that people don't realize how good he is.
like people just don't he like embodied Bear in such a way where he's like this meymouth uh coward you know um like hidden narcissist that is using the good guy trope as a cop like as a a mask and so you just assume that that's Michael Johnson because it's so grounded and so believable and people hadn't really seen him in a lot of stuff that you know he was in Teen Wolf when but he was younger uh but when he when people see him in other movies and Steve had he was acting like I think that they'll appreciate his performance even more.
>> He is not like that guy. He's confident.
He's funny, you know? He's suave. I mean, you can see the the all the photo spreads and stuff he's doing now like half naked eating pizza and stuff like he's cool guy.
>> Like you could break my win one wish.
[laughter] >> Um yeah, >> what was it say? No, I I'm so hoping this gets remembered for when it comes Oscar time because I'm I'm still not over Tony Colette not getting an Oscar for Hereditary. But I think it's more possible now that they're finally open to horror films.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look what Senters did and of course Madigan with Weapons and then before that The Substance.
>> Yeah.
>> Demi Moore. So, the door has been opened and um I I think it's possible. I really do. I did not for a while I refused to allow myself to go there u because it was like as this movie was just building and building I was just like I'm not even going to allow myself to fantasize about it but as we cross 300 million it's undeniable like you gota you have to consider it as a serious movie and then if you don't put them in it's just because you didn't think it wasn't good enough you know I don't I don't think you can not put them in because it was like a genre movie or a little bitty you know, this this movie is it's an important part of cinema. It's an important part of the conversation of Hollywood that that everybody's having.
And then, you know, if you are I mean, obviously Indie is the the first one. I mean, her performance is the easiest one to slot in because she's given an Oscar performance. And then once you sort of crack that door open, then anything's possible. I mean, then you got cinematography and you got sound design, you've got you've got the screenplay, you got the director, you have other actors, you've got the the the music.
It's like uh any of that's possible. Um so >> with the scene where she's in shadow, but you see her eyes. Oh my god. Like not to fanboy, but oh my god.
>> Taylor Clemens is so so good. I mean, he really is. Curry is so lucky to have him and he's lucky to have Curry. Those two together is what makes the magic. It's It's phenomenal.
>> Speaking though of um Bear's cowardice in the film, have you seen the original uh Speak No Evil?
>> Yes.
>> It kind of remind I feel like they're thematically there's a bit of a link there because in that it's sort of all about these people who never want to speak up for themselves and don't want to make a fuss.
>> And with this it's sort of the same thing. It's like don't be a bear, don't be a pussy.
>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, it's been a long time. But but I do Yeah, I remember the the theme of that and how uh yeah, he is he's just um but so but people can relate and is what we were talking about before about this fear of saying something stupid or being judged and you know um he dabbles with it a little bit when he feels really comfortable like when he's at the bar and he he mentions the pina colada and she like I think that's one of the reasons why he has this this uh unhealthy attachment to her. this like romance or whatever is because she does kind of bring him out of his shell a little bit. He feels comfortable with her in ways that he doesn't with other people. He likes the way she makes him feel. Um and you know that is part of romance. Like what can I get out of this? Whether >> that's why it's romance, not love.
>> That's right. Yeah. Is whether it's physical or emotional or status like I'm what I'm getting something out of this relationship. And and um yeah, that's u that's very clear.
So I wanted to ask you a bit about the budget now. It's so it's so amazing to see I think and this is why I think it's resonating so much being original and complex. I think people at least me and I feel like probably a lot of people in the chat have just grown so sick of these movies that feel soulless that they spend three 400 million on them and you watch it and you're like where did the money go? It doesn't seem like it's on screen. Um, so it's so unheard of for a film of this budget to be doing what it's doing. So filming for that budget, were there real constraints on it? Was it something you felt on a sort of day-to-day basis?
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, huge constraints, but they made it work. The reason why it works is because of the talent in the room. Um, you know, Curry was already building his ecosystem over eight years of people coming in, especially with that's a bad idea. uh you know people that sort of gravitated toward him and Cooper and a lot of people tried to get in but they didn't have the work ethic or you know they they wouldn't follow through with things and so they would just filter out and so what was left is a core of people who are very talented future stars in the industry and just looking for an opportunity and then Haley Johnson the the the producer where there where they needed spots and they didn't have that already she like like went and looked under every rock and found the right people like like even Taylor, she's she's the one that brought Taylor to Curry when they were interviewing and trying out different DPS. And um you know, it's just the perfect combination of talent. And so when you have that, you can work with very little. Now, if you have so so talent and you don't have all the tools, you're looking for dis it's going to be a disaster. Uh so that's that's what I think happened here. But, you know, they were all just so happy to have threequarters of a million dollars and and and and there was no pride of like under we're doing this under a million dollars. They would have loved to had a million dollars. They would have yes, give it to us. Uh because then we can, you know, they couldn't they couldn't even afford a script consultant till like toward the end of the shoot, which turn, you know, but it was just too much for Haley who was the the line producer and the producer and Curry's assistant.
I mean, just like she was running the whole show and she was like managing the script, making sure nothing got missed and continuity. So, you know, they had to like pinch pennies and let some things go to be able to get a script cons script supervisor.
So, um yeah, it it what they did was a miracle.
And then for it to play, you know, it plays like a real solid studio movie. It doesn't play like a like a little cheap movie.
>> That's crazy. Yeah. I feel like lowbudget indie film like you have to really love it. It's either you love doing it or you don't. Like somebody somebody's bitching at me on Twitter Twitter recently. They're like, "Oh, do you know what this is like for people?
They work long hours and then they drive home at 4 a.m. covered in blood."
>> Like, sign me up. That is my dream in life to be exhausted covered in blood.
>> Yeah. Look, it I get it. But at the same time, if they don't want to do it, there's 500 people lined up to take their spot, right? And um >> you know, the camaraderie for this crew was like off the charts. Everybody was always in a good and that was uh Haley and Curry really set the mood, you know, where it was always like happy and we're making we're, you know, they we're making a movie, we're making a movie, like this is so awesome. And that was the the attitude throughout. Uh if there were things going on behind, you know, that's come out publicly. Like it didn't seem like that in the moment that anyone was disgruntled in any way. But, you know, I don't know. No one would say anything negative to me because I'm Curry's dad. So, I don't know. But the payoff for a movie like this is, you know, you sign up, you get paid what you what you agree to get paid, you're happy to get paid for the opportunity, and then you just hope and pray that the movie is successful. And if it's successful at all, then you get to use that credit to move up to the next movie. That's even a little little bigger budget, a little more prestigious. And then if that's successful, you get to go to the next one. Everybody was on obsession got to skip about 30 steps.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh so this has been life-changing for everybody. It's life-changing for me, and I'm just Curry's dad. So um >> you're not just Curry's [laughter] dad.
So yeah, but it's a dream come true for everybody who embraced it and is I mean just look at all the opportunities now that everyone's getting.
>> That's amazing. Well, I also want to talk to you though about your work and some writing stuff in general. But so Anything But Ghost is the next film that's already shot, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah, you know, it was shot uh finished right right before Obsession came out about a week or so wrapped up Principal Photography up in Vancouver and that was an awesome experience because you know just this and you know it's a bigger budget movie. It's a studio movie. Uh lots of studios are involved with it. You know horror studios not like you know huge studios but you know horror the prestigious horror studios are involved. You know, you had Spooky Pictures and Blumhouse and everything, which Blumhouse was not involved at all with with Obsession until after it was made. Then they boarded with it and they were a big part of promoting the movie and just having their name on it at all, you know, adds credibility. So that everything they're getting they deserve. Uh but for everything but ghost, this was all from the beginning, you know, and um yeah, so it's uh it was a whole other step up for Curry and but then to also direct and then also step in front of the camera and act um you know, in every scene. It was like mind-blowing to watch him do that and pull that off um because it's incredibly difficult to to direct in such a way where you're answering a thousand questions from every department. you're there for all your actors to make sure that you know they're getting from you what they need to to to embody the character and then also step in front of the camera and be your own character and do it in a grounded and believable way. So, I think people are going to be really happy when they see it.
>> I'm so excited for it. So, was it a totally different experience having more resources and a bit of more higher budget on that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I certainly wouldn't call it a high budget movie.
you know, um there's a there's a lot more room to grow, but it was just yeah, there was no like, well, we can't I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe the line producers like not a lot of stuff, but it just seemed like Curry was able to get what he needed, what he wanted, and everybody's frugal. Everybody's trying to be responsible with the budget, but as far as like manpower, you know, there's a lot more people involved and um and yeah, you could just definitely tell for sure. And the crews in in Vancouver are just so professional. I mean, it's like Hollywood North up there. People, that's what they do. You know, they make movies, TV shows, and they work non-stop. They're very good at it.
>> Is there anything you can tease for us about anything but ghosts?
>> I'm [laughter] dying. I can't wait to see it.
>> No, I can't say anything. I mean, I've signed an NDA. I could just say what's publicly uh what's public knowledge about is you know, Aaron Paul's in it, Bryce Dallas Howard, Violet McGraw. I mean, these are all huge stars. and and then Curry and Cooper and Chris Riker.
Um so yeah, I mean it's two paranormal investigators who are basically go around conning people, but they you know they eventually run across something that uh changes the game. Uh so a lot of consequences.
>> Oh, I can't wait to see it. Have you is there is there any talk of like release date in the future?
>> Uh no, I mean not solid. I mean it was it's definitely going to be in 27 and it was early 27 but focus is the distributor again. So they who knows they may want to like give obsession some room to grow.
>> Sure.
>> I mean uh you know air out just like give him some space or maybe they want to just keep keep the ball rolling. I don't know. But there's a lot has to happen between now and then too. Curry has to edit it and that's what he's doing now. He edits all his stuff and um that's a huge job to edit a feature movie and to do it right. Um and you know and then it gets seen by an audience, you get feedback, you edit it some more. It's just a process.
>> I was so happy. I don't know if this is true, but it was just a rumor out there that initially Obsession was supposed to come to streaming like two, three weeks after it came out. I was so glad that they apparently cancelled that and really let this be a real theatrical because this is something that's really bringing people to theaters. I went to go see it last week again with my buddy Josh. We went at 11 p.m. on a Wednesday night. Sold out. We got the last two tickets.
>> That's insane. And in in Central Florida.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Nothing sells out here.
>> That's crazy. That's If it was Burbank, I'd be like, "Well, people love movies."
But Central Florida, that's crazy. I mean, it's >> I've never seen anything sell out here.
>> Yeah. That's wild. It's um Yeah. No, it's uh June 2nd was supposed to be the VOD release.
I'm seeing stuff now June 25th. I I didn't check to see if that was accurate or not. I just saw like four or five posts today about so you know, but sometimes people post something that's not accurate and then everybody will just post it because they posted it. So I don't really know. I do know that it's it's going to be, you know, they have a 45day theatrical window. So whenever that's up, that's when it can go to video on demand. And you know, again, how the business works, it goes to video on demand, which means you can buy it or rent it. It's not streaming. you know, people are still g it's just like buying a movie ticket at your house uh to see it and then that plays out for a while and then it goes to streaming and I don't even know what streamer it's going to yet. You know, that's a whole other bidding thing that has to happen.
>> That those bids are going to get high, let me [laughter] tell you.
>> Yeah. I mean, ultimately it probably live on Universal, which is but that but probably not for the first run, I wouldn't guess.
>> Oh, that's awesome. So, I want you to talk about your fil. So, I've heard you talk about you've been a writer for decades, but you had mostly done novels, so you're sort of newer to screenwriting.
>> Uh, yeah. Well, I've been doing it for about three years. Curry Curry brought me to it, you know, because because of obsession. He wanted uh, you know, he wanted me to look at his work and have, you know, see what I what I thought about it since I was the writer uh, in the family. And I mean, he's a great writer. So, um, um, you know, I was just there to like help him shape scenes if he needed to. But, you know, beyond having a voice as a writer and the writing I had done, I didn't have a whole lot of exposure to screenplays because when I was coming up, you couldn't be a screenwriter unless you lived in LA. I mean, now you can. You can you can pretty much live anywhere and do it. But >> you never felt like moving there. I don't blame you.
>> Yeah, I'd love to. It's just, you know, life, you know, we had three young kids and um it was just a matter of, you know, plus multiple households. It's like it's not that easy. Um, but when Curry uh, you know, wanted my input, I I dove deep into screenplays and tried to read as many of them as I could very quickly. And then I just became obsessed with it. I get really obsessed about things like Curry does >> and um, just was reading as much as I could and then I was like, well, I want to write a screenplay, you know, I want to see I want to take what I've done as a pros writer and and and you know, transition over to this and see see what I could do. And the first screenplay I wrote, I put in screenplay contests and and a pretty big one and I was a finalist. And so then that really encouraged me to keep doing it. So I kept writing screenplays, kept putting them in contests and I won a really big contest, the fade in screenwriting competition, which really big one. And that really changed uh my career. I mean then I had some attention from producers, you know, managers, agents, that sort of thing. Um, and uh, yeah.
So, and then when you know and then I continued to break down the do the screenplays breakdown because I found that doing that uh, well, first I started doing it because Curry said, "Dad, you need to put yourself out there. You know, living in Alabama, you're not in Hollywood. You know, you can make some connections just by putting yourself out there." And I was really shy and nervous about it. You know, I felt like a fraud talking about screenplays when I didn't have any screenwriting credits. But I um you know it was hard for me to do it. But I just started doing it and I never claimed to be anybody I wasn't. I was just you know I called myself a screenwriter because I was writing screenplays and never said I was professional and just you know put that stuff out there and nobody watched it and I was really glad about that.
Actually I'd put a video out and it'd be like 80 views and I was really comfortable with that. Uh, but the reason I kept doing it was because every time I did one of these screenplay breakdowns, which would take about 15 to 18 hours of prep, uh, my screenwriting elevated. It was like going through film school for me. Like it really like opened my eyes to see things. It was it was like a mechanic. Like I was able to take it apart, put it back together, see how the pieces fit, and then I'd go to the next screenplay, do it again, and then I like, well, they he did he or she did this different than the other person did. So why is that? Um, and it, yeah, it really helped me. And then, you know, uh, when Obsession hit and Curry was gracious enough to talk about some of the impacts I had on the script, pe people in Hollywood wanted to check me out and I had all this stuff, you know, people started finding me on the Screenplay Lab and, you know, producers and executives reached out to me and wanted to read my scripts and now, you know, now I have a lot of projects that are being set up. So, I'm just so thankful.
>> It's amazing. That's amazing to know that even you felt that way because with me, I fell out of writing for a couple years that I felt like, oh, I'm not good enough. I'll never get something made.
And then eventually felt like I have to tell this story. And so, I'm uh I'm working on my rewrite, but I'm entering my first uh festivals at the end of the month.
>> Yeah. Great. Yeah, that's awesome. you know, well, the thing is is about the festivals like I guess over time if you have a really good screenplay, it'll eventually get recognized, but it's all very subjective. You know, even like on the blacklist, I've gotten uh several eights on scripts and whenever you get one, you know, they let you have the free submissions because then they want other eyes on it, see what those scores are to see if this was like a serious eight or not. Um, and you know, I'll have sometimes I'll get an eight and then the next person will read it and give me a five or a six. It's like, okay, so it's just totally subjective, >> which is what the business is. I mean, that's real life, right? So, when your script goes across someone's desk, it's not going to resonate with everybody.
And some people are going to read it and say, "This is the best thing I've read in three months."
>> Yeah, that's what I had. I had a pilot I wrote years ago on the blacklist. I had two review. I got an eight and a four. I was like, "I think my writing's polarizing.
Hey, that's a good thing actually. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, if it's all straight sixes, it's like, okay, you're, >> you know, you're you're decent, but like you're not really shaking me. But an eight and a four, that means you really offended someone and someone really thought it was great.
>> Thank you.
>> Because an eight an eight is huge. Uh they don't hand those things out very often and they what they're really saying is that this is sellable. This is something that can actually be made. So, yeah, that's that should be very encouraging to you. A thanks. Well, so so you have I saw you have one short that you finished shooting, one you're about to start shooting, and then you have um Gravewater, I think it's called, that Saw X director is making is going to direct.
>> Yeah. Well, Kevin Grutder is attached and he did Saw X and Jezebel and other things. He's awesome guy. He he um >> he read my screenplay and had me out.
>> By the way, it's so beautiful. I need to go to Alabama.
>> It was getting dark, so I had to get some real light in here. Thank you. Um, yeah. No, he he's awesome. I love him to death. And you know, his team at UTA sent the script around town and uh you know how things go. You get a lot of silent nose and it's just like everybody's get, you know, working on something. So, but I think with Obsession, people are giving another look and we'll, you know, maybe have some progress to get get that ball rolling again. And then, you know, I have other things in the works, too. So, um, yeah, but Grave's my baby. Well, they all are. They're all, you know, you know how it is.
>> Yeah. That's like your passion [clears throat] project, though.
>> Well, I don't I It's just the one that uh I've won a lot of awards and stuff with, so I feel like it's solid. Like it's it's, you know, I don't have as much imposture syndrome with that one. I feel like people someone would read, they may not be their cup of tea, uh, but they read it and say, "Yeah, this is a good screenplay. I could see this as a movie." Um, I think it's definitely gotten past that stage, so I'm not worried about it. But I don't know if I just love it more than the other ones.
Like, they're like I said, they're all they're all my babies. You know, you bring these things to life. You blow breathe life into them, and you don't want them to die. You know, you want you want to see it through. You want to see it be something. Um, so people always ask me like, "How many drafts do you do on your scripts?" It's like indefinite.
Like I'm always they're like little plants. I just take them out, water them a little bit, put them back. You know, I'm always uh tinkering with them and um because if they just sit too long, I lose it. And you know, I lose those characters and I don't want them to die.
>> I have This is something I've been struggling with. My I'm working on a sort of one of my later rewrites with this that I've been stuck on forever.
What do you do when you're stuck on something with a script?
>> Um I don't know. What do you mean by that exactly? Like how are you stuck? I guess writer's block. You can't figure some things out. You're just sort of at a boulder.
>> Yeah. I just put my butt in the seat and I don't get up. Like uh you know, I will go for walks and clear my head and all that, but I don't believe in writers's block. I I believe in procrastination.
Like if you're trying to to avoid the pain of writing and the pain of being confused or, you know, hitting a roadblock and not having the solution, you can avoid that pain by procrastinating. it. There's no like, you know, there's no moment where your brain just turns off and you're not as intelligent as you were before. So, anything can be figured out. Any story can be broken and broken in many different ways. It's just a matter of putting the time in and figuring it out.
So, I don't really have those issues, but I'm pretty bluecollar. Like, I I put in a lot of hours every day like like it's my job no matter what. And uh eventually I'll get there.
>> Yeah, that's that's something that I'm working on. I'm guess it's reassuring to know that [laughter] though that like it can be figured out.
>> Man, you're an artist. It's painful.
Being an artist is painful. You have because that's what you're giving the world is you're you're putting up a mirror and you're looking at parts of yourself that you may not want to see.
And you got you can't you have to be vulnerable and check in with those things to tell tell a story that resonates with people. That's truth.
>> And I think I for me at least I've had to get comfortable with realizing at least for me I feel this way. You got to write the bad version first. Just don't worry if it's good.
>> Yeah. I mean, perfection has killed a lot of great projects. And, you know, this is what Curry's always talking about. Everybody's like, I'm gonna make a movie. I'm going to make a movie. But they never do because they're they want it to be perfect. They want, you know, they want their first movie to be, you know, this thing that just like, oh, this this guy this guy or this girl is so amazing. You should see this short.
But when but when that happens it's usually someone's fourth or fifth movie like you've gota you've got to just go through the process and then from screenwriting especially you just got to get get it down writing is really editing uh you know the fun part is just flow and just putting it down or whatever but that's not really writing writing is shaping and editing like we talked about before addition from subtraction being minimalistic you know how how can I write this sentence in a way with the fewest words possible that's going to naturally flow into the next sentence where there's no bumps, no hiccups, and using the white space on the page to guide the eyes so that the reader reads at the pace that you want them to read depending on what's happening in the script.
>> That that's one place in particular where I've learned so much from watching your videos with my thing that I'm working on there. There was excessive description. So, I heard you say that and just weren't went sat with the new draft. I was like, "Delete, delete, delete."
>> Great. Great. That's awesome. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, I that's why I outline I I do a very thorough outline uh in the beginning. That's a lot of what I'm doing this next week in LA, meeting with some producers and doing outlines for projects that they want me to write. And to me, that is like like um it's so safe and so freeing because I I'll come away with a 30-page outline and I can always delete things, move things, you know, add to it. It's like I have no emotional attachment to that document. But when I sit down when I start writing >> and I write in fade in obviously but you could write in you know any of programs when I start doing that uh then it then it exists in the world and I still will cut it and do all that but it just it takes a little more from me to do >> it's harder.
>> Yeah. But with an outline no problem but I'll delete the whole thing and start over whatever it takes. You know I hate outlines but they are the tool for me that >> gives me the freedom to be creative. So, like I love to discover the scene. I love to discover the characters as I go, but that rigid hard part in the beginning is what allows me the freedom to do that because I I know exactly where I'm going in every beat, in every moment.
>> Do you ever start an outline and you still don't know certain specifics of the story and you just kind of write around it or do you sort of already have it established by then?
>> No, every time. I mean, that is the discovery is the outline. Like I usually have the beginning and I never even start any project without knowing how it's going to end. Um because that's the last thing you want to do is No, it doesn't always end the way I intended, but at least when I start I have an ending in mind and I'm going that direction. Um, and then the outline, the hard work of getting that that outline is is figuring out all those beats where you're not just going and then this happens and then this happens and then like everything that happens has to be a derivative of something that happened previously.
>> Yeah, I think so too. Um, is there so is there anything in all the time you've been doing this that you've learned in particular about storytelling? Like if you had one piece of advice about writing?
>> Yeah, it's it's to write. like write a lot or like find your voice, you know?
See, everybody's like, "Find your voice.
Find your voice." But really, it's like anything else. Like, if you want to be a professional athlete, you you you know, like you can't just show up and be like, "Hey, I want to play for the Knicks."
Like, you have to like >> and you're out of shape and like you have to put the work in. And putting the work in is how you find your voice. There are no shortcuts. And if it if it were, then everybody' be doing it.
Um, but if you love it and you're passionate about it and it's what you're meant to be doing, then it'll happen.
Uh, because everyone else will just weed themselves out. It really is a war of attrition. If you can just stick with it long enough, you'll have the tools and and everyone else falls away.
Is there any advice you have in particular, you think, for people who have written something or trying to get it made in terms of getting to the gatekeepers, getting past the gatekeepers, getting something from the page to being able to make it?
>> Yeah. No, I mean, I spent a long time get trying to get through gatekeepers, especially writing novels. Like to to me, the the literary book world is way harder than Hollywood, you know?
>> Really?
>> Yeah. Like, and it's really interesting because there are far far far fewer screenwriters. Like, you know, probably one to a thousand. They're probably a thousand.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Maybe not.
>> What do you mean more screenwriters than novel writers >> or more? Yeah.
>> Oh, well, maybe people who like play around and say they've written a screenplay or whatever, but I mean really serious screenwriters. Well, just from a professional standpoint, like professional screenwriters to professional novel writers, like people who actually have a a book in the world, uh there's way way more novel writers, especially with self-publishing and all that stuff. I mean, it's just like I mean, it's probably a thousand to one, I'd guess. It's very rare, much more rare, I believe, to be a screenwriter.
But even with that, it like like if you go the traditional route, which is the which is what I've always tried to do.
I've never self-published. Uh to get to the the New York gatekeepers, you know, through the the agents that you query and then then and that whole process for me anyway, it's been it's been impossible. Like, I've had hardly any luck with that. So, I have these novel manuscripts that I love and I believe in, but no one's ever read them. I mean, it's like you you write a book and then you write a query letter and then that's it. like the one page letter is basically what they'll decide if they want to read or not off of. And um I've had way more luck in screenwriting, but um so you know the thing is you just never quit. Like if it's if it's who you are, it's it's part of your DNA and it's who you claim as your identity, then own it and never never, you know, take the nose and keep going and learn to accept the rejection. You know, I just got an email out of the blue yesterday from [laughter and snorts] from a You talk about crazy turn of events, and nothing may ever come from this, but I got an email yesterday from a a very serious literary agent in New York, a book agent, who said that they had watched Obsession, and they had heard on a podcast afterwards that I had written the Hansel and Gretle Monologue, and they thought thought it was some of the best writing they'd ever heard. And they'd asked if I'd ever even written a novel or would consider writing a novel.
And I was like, well, yes, I have. So, uh, >> so it's like a full circle like, you know, um, after thousands of rejections and this may not, like I said, may not go anywhere, but it just shows that if you never give up, you know, no telling would have come to you.
>> Yeah. Maybe you had to not publish stuff then so that it could bring you to this point where you can be doing screenplays and novels.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I recently uh took a screenplay that I that I have and adapt adapted it into a novel. So like back adapted. Usually it's the other way. And that was a cool process.
So I'm just constantly writing all the time and um that's awesome.
>> And and we'll see where it all lands.
>> Oh my god, that's amazing. Is is there anything you can tell us about your films you're working on, whether it's shorts or any of anything?
>> Yeah. Uh probably not. I mean, I could tell you about the short I I'll tell you about the one we just shot. It's called Good Tape. And like I said earlier, my my daughter and I act in it.
>> Um >> Oh, you're in it, too?
>> Yeah. I'm an actor. Uh you know, one of my my former uh manager, he was a big like acting manager. He he was more of on the actor side than the literary side. And he's a great guy. And we've since parted ways. But one of the things is he's like, "You should act like you I think you could do it." And uh so he got me set up on all the ways to audition and stuff and I started auditioning and I actually uh was ca I've been cast in two movies that u shooting one in Georgia toward the end of the year and I'm shooting one in Oregon. Um and uh yeah so like like that's really cool.
[laughter] >> That's amazing. So coming to that late in life, you know, um but I was a news anchor for 10 years and I always joke that that I was play, you know, I was playing a character every night. I was acting every night, just playing the same person every night. Um, and um, yeah. So anyway, yeah, so I I can act a little bit and my daughter's seven and like I really didn't know what I was going to get out of her and it felt like a really good test as a director to see what I could get. But also like there was no pressure because if it didn't turn out good and it'll really never see the light of day and it was just really good practice for my other short, which is the big one that we're doing in Vancouver. And she really nailed it. She really did >> good.
>> She did great. I mean, she really gave us >> more than I even imagined. And I don't know where she pulled it from, but she uh I can't wait for the world to see it.
I think people will be like, "Wow, that's Curry Barker's sister can really act like it's uh it's going to be fun."
>> So, um, >> do you have any idea you want to make come out or are you still editing it and doing posts? Well, my goal is to have it finished by a August 1 just because a couple of festivals I want to put it in to have that as a deadline and uh but it the time is tight, you know. I I have I'm going to edit it myself because I want to like, you know, flex that muscle, like get better at that as well.
My son Riley, who's he's he's the editor on all of uh all the That's a Bad idea stuff and shoots all of it, too. And then he was also uh the assistant editor on Anything But Ghost. Curry's the you know the main editor and so he was my DP on this and because he he's a cinematographer and then he also spent the day like helping me fix my Premiere Pro because like you know I was just using like the I've been using it like how it comes out of the box you know like this this stuff's up here and this he's like that this is >> you know there's a thousand ways to like moving stuff around and like deleting stuff that I don't need. is like, "Wow, this is way easier now." And uh and introduced me to some transitions and stuff I didn't know about. So, it's um so I I want to edit it, so it'll be kind of slow doing that, but I want to get better at that. And um and then, of course, I'll have him do a pass when I'm finished. And I'm going to try to color it, but then also have him like probably fix it. [laughter] So, but uh and then I've got all this writing that I'm doing. So, um, the goal is by August 1st, but I'm not really like killing myself for that either. Like, that's that's a soft goal.
>> Oh, we can't wait to see it. That's so cool that you're acting in these, too.
It's funny. I um So, I just a couple weeks ago showed my dad my script that I had written for the first time and he really liked it, but he said to me after, he goes, "Oh, are you going to be acting in it, playing the main role?"
[laughter] No. And he goes, "Oh, that's good. You need a real good actor for that."
>> Oh, yeah. Wow. Oh, that hurts, Dad. That hurts.
>> No, he's on I'm a terrible actor. He tells it like it is.
>> Oh, man. No, I I think you're such a interesting personality. Like, as long as you're acting someone that's, you know, in your lane, I think it would be awesome.
>> A thanks. I'm so excited to see all of these that you're working on. Yeah, this is so true. What Fancy said. That's a good raised right son.
>> Oh, yeah. [laughter] >> That's amazing.
>> Yeah. So, uh, uh, yeah. So, Good Tape is, uh, it's about a a girl who is, um, well, I haven't actually said publicly anything about this, so I don't know how much I should say, >> you know, it's only 10 minutes and I and it has a lot of like surprises in it.
It's even tonally, it starts as one thing and becomes something else. It's psychological horror. I mean, that's that's the family business. So, uh, so that's I think that's all I'll say about it.
>> Oh, I can't wait. [laughter] Is it? So, are all of these you're working on? Are they all horror?
>> Uh, the shorts are and most of my screenplays are. I I do have a straight drama screenplay. I have a straight buddy comedy that I actually wrote for Curry and Cooper. And um you know, whether they act in it or not, but it it's really cool. It's called God's Vape Juice. And then I have a uh I have a surreal dark comedy which is like a Yorgos Lathamos type movie like The Lobster and kinds of kindness. like it's like a reality adjacent but then everything else I have is psychological horror and psychological not in like small slow horror. It's still commercial horror but it's from but it has psychological themes which is important to me. I mean, I was I worked as a psychiatric nurse practitioner for nine years, and that's had a huge impact on on my life and how I see the human condition and even on my boys' lives just from the conversations we would have all the time about mental health.
And I think you see some of that in Curry's art.
>> Did were you able to get a lot of material that you used from your career in that?
>> Yeah. you know, not like like this happened and the copy of that over, but more just like the the the feel of it, the understanding of what it's like, you know, to deal with pain and grief and trauma and and the manifestation, you know, with with uh psychosis, you know, it's uh a lot of things have to happen to get, you know, the dopamine receptors to the place to where you're seeing things, hearing things, being paranoid, delusional, and you know, it's all triggered from trauma and and how things happen to us. And so, you know, the patience that I had over the years taught me a lot about that and very thankful for that, that they trusted me in that way. And so, there's no question that that stuff shows up in my writing.
>> Oh, that's amazing. So, you've have you always been a horror fan? Was it horror movies that you that bonded you with your kids? Did you did they sort of grow up watching them?
>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, not just horror, you know, we also love comedy.
Like Key and Pill is on at our house every afternoon. Um, it was like, you know, whatever we were using at the time, whether it was Direct TV or whatever, like we just had them all recorded and it just like if we weren't actively sitting down to watch a movie, like making dinner or doing dishes or like homework or whatever, and, you know, we weren't afraid to have the TV on, probably, you know, had it on too much, but we'd throw that third key and pill on and just like it was just like part of the consciousness, you know. Um, and we love like silly comedy movies, you know, like the Will Ferrell stuff, like the really like hardcore like straight comedy. And but no, we also love horror and tried to protect the kids from that as as long as possible, but they were watching that stuff behind my back.
>> Yeah, I was gonna say, how did that go?
>> Yeah, Curry talked about Chainsaw Masters, the first horror movie he ever saw. He uh he snuck and watch it. And then and then The Ring he watched while while we were watching it. He was like hiding behind the couch. Didn't even know he was there watching it. So, >> good thing we were behaving.
>> No, I grew up watching horror movies with my dad forever. And back then, I don't know if it was the same thing with your kids, but back then, if you were a kid that loved horror movies, everyone was just like, "Oh, he's going to grow up to be a serial killer."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. That was the big joke about Stephen King, like, you know, like, "Oh, he's crazy." you know, no, he's just tapped into something that, you know, for me, horror is it's all about this the human condition and it's about like like the reason why I love movies like Hereditary and Mid Som like Ari and you know Jordan Peele and and and then uh Zack Kger and then like you know what Curry's doing.
These are movies that are character-driven first, like their character dramas first and then what's going on inside the character is so devastating that it manifests as some sort of horror. Um, that's what I like.
So, that's that's what I write.
>> That's what I always say. I feel like horror movies are basically the meaning of life. It's just about defeating the monster, whatever that might be for any individual person, and fighting to survive long enough to see the end credits. That's that's all life is really.
>> Yeah, that's so true. I mean, and it's um you know, you when you watch a movie, you just want to feel something, you know? You want to like you know, you're investing this time in the movie. you have this unwritten agreement that it's going to give something back to you and you want to you want to feel something and and I want to walk away and be thinking about you know how it applies to me and what have I done wrong or what how would I respond in that situation you know I think I think there's a lot of guys who see bear and then they're part of what might be attractive about the movie is that they struggle with like how they may have fallen into the same trap that Bear fell into and being honest with themselves, but they can't really even say that out loud because of, you know, just like the culture that we're in. It's like, you know, you want to be very honest about protecting women, protecting, you know, like their what they go through. But at the same time, you may be thinking like, you know, maybe I would have made the same mistake. And and that's why it's so important to write gray characters instead of black and white characters where they're they're not all good.
They're not all bad. And you can you can maybe put yourself in a place.
>> That's what I love so much about this is that they're complex. It's not I hate when movies are just preaching at you and telling you what to feel. With this, it's a whole lot of gray area.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that was by design. You know, Curry is really good at creating three-dimensional characters and and you know, we do a lot of talking about like who are these people? You know, there's there's things he knows about these characters that aren't in the film that just just from like really thinking hard about them, taking notes, like you know, Sarah, like you know, she's an artist.
She wants they they pick on her about the tattoos, but she really might doesn't even care about t wears tattoos, but she wants to be like a real artist, not just a tattoo artist. Not that there's anything wrong with tactic artists, but I mean that that's what uh and there's so much more to her uh and all of them. So yeah, that that's the key to writing good threedimensional characters is to really know these people. Another trick that I do is since I since we're given uh tricks away here, >> um is is I cast when I write screenplay, I cast the characters.
>> I do too.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's an important step. A lot of people don't do that. And so then you kind of sometimes they get muddy and you end up writing multi like one character the version of them changes as you go. But for me when I just have up on my screen an image of someone's face and I sort of writing through their voice it really helps me to keep it straight and to make them seem more rounded and 3D, you know, and that person will, you know, maybe never be the person who acts in that role, but that's okay. It just helped me get there, you know. I wanted to ask you, so one thing that I love about Curry stuff, for example, is the dialogue is so great. Even when it's just something that's in the background, it's so interesting. Do you got Do you have any dialogue tricks? [laughter] Yeah. It's very Gen Zcoded.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh he's really great at that. We wrote a screenplay together uh that that, you know, he wants to direct someday and I I hope that he does. You know, it's down the road just because he has so much on his plate. But uh you know going back and forth on the script the thing you know one of the things that he contributed to it so much was was the the Gen Z dialogue because we have you know a lot of the characters in it are his age and and I think he's really good at not just like what people are saying but how they say it like the like the cadence and how they talk over each other. I mean, he really writes in a lot of the, you know, the ellipsies and the commas and and the ums and stuff. And, uh, he doesn't really harp on the actors too much about hitting all that, but he wants when they read it to understand like this is what he was going for.
>> And I think what's really awesome, too, is they all sound very distinct. They all have separate speech patterns, syntax.
>> Yeah. And they talk over each other a lot. And that was by design. he really wanted to do that >> you know because he wanted to come across as and it's not like that for every script but for this group it's they're they're a friend group they're they're all kind of frenemies they all kind of like have it out for each other in one way or the other and like you know they just like exist in this existence where no one's really happy with who they are everybody wants something else something different so that all kind of seeps into their conversations a lot of saying one thing and meaning other and that's >> and I think that's what makes it really relatable to people as well.
>> Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of people who recognize that either in people they know or maybe themselves.
>> Yeah. And that's just a great rule for screenwriting in general. Like you don't want characters that are are saying what they mean because no one really says what they mean. Like you want them to to hint around it to to be hiding something and then for us to discover what it is that they're they're protecting that they're hiding. And that's when it seems, you know, and like these tricks that people talk about like take your recorder out to the restaurant and record the people in the booth next to you and go home and type that out. To me, that's just like trash. Uh like that's that that I mean because you don't really want to write authentic dialogue. You want to write authentic a type of authentic dialogue where it's like it's like it's real, but it's not because you still have you still want to get it done in a short amount of words.
You still want to get to to the meat of it and you want to be very clear about you know what the meaning is of this dialogue without saying it out out loud exactly how someone would say it. Um so yeah it is it's very important to know what they are saying but then don't really say it say something else.
>> That's very smart. Um I wanted to ask you so this is something that people are debating from the film as well about what happens to Nikki after the end credits. I feel like it's kind of bleak.
>> Yeah. Well, so Curry's made it very public that and anything that goes, there's a news report in the breakroom of where they the news is on and they say they're investigating a triple homicide. So, uh, people have taken that out of context and said that she's been convicted of a triple homicide or she's been arrested. It just says that they're investigating a triple homicide. So, it's still up in the air, right? Um, I don't know. I hope like she doesn't deserve to go to jail. I mean, that it would be hard to beat, but at the same time, I really feel like she could beat it. I feel like that there's a way that she >> Jeff I I think we got to pin it on Andy Richter. [laughter] >> I think that's the solution. He snapped.
He was upset that uh his daughter wasn't getting into college. He was upset that the sales at the music store dropped with music streaming and he killed everyone. Sorry, Andy Richtor, but better you than Nikki.
>> He was like, "I can't make a penny in the store. I have to pay four employees that have livable wages. How am I going to make any money?"
>> Uh, no. I think I think he pinned it on Bayer. I mean, because there's enough people who saw him act the way he did.
And like I mean, she bashed her face with the bottle and he just sat there like like people were already thinking it was so weird that >> you know how he how they were dating, seriously dating all of a sudden. So, um I I think with a good lawyer there a good lawyer could create enough doubt that maybe she could get out of it. At least that's what I hope because she was already in prison. She's already been through more than anyone else. Uh I can't I would hate the idea that she would go to jail. Well, and I think I want to say also I think that's another great lesson to take from reading the screenplay is I think one of the most chilling scenes in it is uh when he calls up the one wish Willow hotline on the phone and the fact that you guys don't overexlain it and it whatever you're imagining when you hear her soul screaming on the phone is so much worse than anything could ever be explained.
>> Yeah. And that's what we were talking about earlier about leaving these holes.
You know, I think the I think the the lowhanging fruit that most filmmakers would have gone for is and quite frankly most executives would have pushed for because it's probably what they've seen more often is to have Bear uh, you know, really dive in and discover the lore of the One Wish Willow. Why does it exist?
How does it work? Go down this rabbit hole of that and then try to redeem himself by saving her. Uh that's the cheap version of this and I think a lot people would have gone that route. Um so yeah, I think um not digging into the lore and leaving these holes where we don't have to explain everything just like ups the value of the movie tremendously.
>> That that was another thing where in my script I'm working on I had like pages of explaining mythology. I saw Obsession and came home cut.
>> Yeah. But when you when you get to the point to where executives and stuff are reading it, uh, some of them will probably be like, well, I just don't I don't get this. You gota you got to make this clear for the viewer. That's sort of old thinking and it's still prevalent and in some cases it's not wrong. But you could see with movies like Obsession how there is another way.
>> Yeah. I think audiences in general are much smarter than a lot of people think.
Which is also what I wanted to ask you.
This is something I've seen a lot of people talking about in terms of not just obsession but also back session backwards and obsession. What lesson do you think Hollywood will learn from this? What will they take away from these records being smashed? Do you think it a positive one?
>> Yeah, I do. I hope so. I think that um that they'll probably take some of the money that they were going to put into big projects and you know, not that those projects won't exist, but you know, take some of the money and do other things because it I mean, look, $750,000 is nothing in Hollywood. Like, it's real money to you and me, but in Hollywood, it's you know, it's it's nothing. It's like it's a rounding error. So, if you could go make 30 of these at at a million dollars or less and two of them hit, uh, then you're even. If three of them hit, now you're making money. So, um, I do think you'll probably see more risk and more projects like this. I mean, everybody is trying to find the next Curry Barker is what they're saying, you know, and which I was like, he's only been Curry Barker for a few days. Like, let him have it for a while. [laughter] But I get it.
No, they're saying, "Look, there's more out there." And there are, and especially women, >> there's like 17 more barkers to choose from. [laughter] >> Yeah. And but but even like the Gen Z women who are making content online, you know, that could could make a killer movie and have a perspective that hasn't been explored yet. uh you know uh people of color, people of different sexual orientations, like there's so many perspectives that I hope the door has just been opened so that we can all experience that art. That's what I want.
I want to see things I've never seen before.
>> Well, hopefully that's what Yeah, this is honestly the first time in forever that I actually feel really hopeful about just even as a fan of films like the state of where things I think are going.
>> Yeah, >> it it seems kind of positive. I mean, I I'll sometimes feel like I've written a movie to appeal to nobody because it's like a gay love story that's also a slasher horror turns into a horror movie.
>> No, dude. That is like everybody wants that now. That's >> it's like Call Me By Your Name meets uh Heller.
>> That That's where it's at right there.
Everybody's looking for that next movie.
Like I mean Leviticus is going to be huge. I think that's going to open the door to some things. Uh and once something successful, it just like they're just looking for more of that.
So, no, it's um I see where the TV glows or whatever. I forget the name of that one. Uh how the TV glows. Do you remember that one? The the A24 maybe.
>> Yeah, that's another one. Um no, I love that stuff. I think it's great.
>> Yeah, I'm excited. Well, I know you got to take off in a little bit, but I had to ask you for the last thing, the most important question of all. What is in your letterbox top four? [laughter] which is imposs I wish they would just give you one more and make it five. It's so impossible. [clears throat] >> Four is so hard. Uh well, I hate to even say because then people can find me because I I I try to be honest about my reviews. It's the only place in the whole world where I'm honest about that because I >> Oh, it's hard.
>> But it's for me. It's for me. It's so that I can look back and be like, how much did I enjoy this movie? What was it that I liked about it? What was it that didn't resonate with me? Not because I'm trying to put anybody down or anything because like for a movie to exist in the world it's a miracle. So yeah, who am I to be like, well this was no good, you know, this is garbage. Uh so no and it's it's mostly positive. But there will be things like I watched a movie last night and I just said um man this was this would be way better if they had cut an hour like it was two and a it was like two hours and 20 minutes. It needed to be an hour and 30 minutes. They had one too many story lines. Uh, and I feel safe writing that because I'm writing it for me and I'm anonymous.
>> I know what it is. [laughter] >> But, uh, no, but my, uh, my four-letter box, they're all Curry Barker movies.
It's like Obsession, Milk Cereal, The Chair, Warnings, I think. Yeah, >> that's awesome. Is it Do you have a favorite movie of all time?
>> Oh, yeah. I Well, I love her Hereditary.
I love um I'm like Curry, I really like um Invisible Man. That's his favorite movie. It's one of my favorites. I like Myth Summer a lot because I like I love the idea of this bright horror movie. It just is so unique and and and um >> I love the director's cut of it, too.
That's like almost three hours. I'm like that movie could be 10 hours.
>> No, I haven't seen that yet. It just came out, right? I haven't seen >> so good.
>> Yeah, I definitely need to check that out because uh yeah, I just couldn't get enough of that movie. Um >> yeah, >> I um I just watched one. Well, it's easier for me to talk about the stuff I've seen recently that I really liked.
Like I loved uh Undertone and uh and I really liked I watched a movie called Dangerous Animal. Have you seen this one?
>> Oh, that's been on my watch list forever.
>> It's on everybody's watch list. It's just sort of like one of these movies like the trailer was so awesome and it wasn't very available so it kind of like But now it is. I can't remember where I watched it. Maybe it was on Parammont Plus or something, but it's out there and it's >> um it's you know it's a serial killer on a boat and he feeds people the sharks and it's like talk about Contained World. Like it's really awesome.
>> Oh, I gotta watch it. Have you seen I think it came out last year, Strange Darling.
>> My one of my favorites.
>> Oh, it's so good.
>> Yes. I'm so glad you brought that up.
>> I knew you I knew you were going to love that movie.
>> Oh, really? Yeah.
>> Yeah. because I I do keep a list of I keep a running list of of my favorite movies ranked through the 2020s from 2020 to now because otherwise it's too long. And then each year I have a ranking list of my favorite movies from 2025, 2024, 2023.
>> I do that.
>> And then also my favorite horror movies that I've watched since 2020. And Strange Darling is in the top five on whatever movie year it came out, 24 or 23. It's also in my top five of horror movies that I've seen in the last five years. I think it's great and uh it is something I'm so happy that you said that because it is like something I would write like not that I would I'm saying oh I could write that. I'm just saying it it fits my style like that is I love a twist like that. I love a female I write female characters mostly which that that's a whole other thing I need to explore why I do that. But, uh, I just feel like they're a lot more interesting and for me anyway, I can get a lot more depth out of them and it's more fun and so uh, yeah, I love that movie.
>> I had a feeling you would. That was a great one.
>> It's so weird.
>> There's one there's one you would really like, I think. Have you seen the movie Villains?
>> It's like unheard of. I think it came out 2018 or so. Nobody knows of it. You got to watch Villains. It is a roller coaster ride. It's with uh Bill Scarsgard, Micah Monroe, Kira.
>> He's so good. He's in everything recently.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. The Pylon or Pylon or whatever. I haven't seen that yet, but that just came streaming. So >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's in it with the guy who played uh Dersley in Harry Potter. He's all grown up now. And it's like a I think it's a a gay love story.
And it's like into beastiality and stuff like >> uh or not beity. Holy shit.
>> Okay. I got no what is it called? BT BS.
You know where you like hit EACH OTHER LIKE >> OH, THAT I HAVE HEARD OF that movie. Um [laughter] >> not um what's the word for that?
>> BDSM or >> I don't I'm very vanilla. I don't know.
>> Okay. Well, whatever that is where they get black leather and beat each other.
that >> uh that and so that I definitely want to watch that. That looks awesome. But he's >> Yeah, I gotta watch that now. I didn't know he was in that.
>> He is. Yeah, >> he's a beast, man.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh my god. I gotta check that out now.
>> Uh I I do have to move off here because I gotta uh the daughters in and I have another podcast tonight. Believe it or not, >> you're crushing it. You're on everything. Uh Jeff, this has been the biggest honor. It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much for being here.
for me. It was nice meeting you, Mike. I appreciate it.
>> And I also got to tell you, very important thing, like a a message for you to deliver. If you happen to see Michael Johnston anytime soon, just let him know I'm single. [laughter] >> I don't think he is, but I'll I'll I'll let him know. Yeah, >> I'll see him. He's He's a sweetheart. I love him. Yeah, he's great.
>> Thank you so much, Jet. Chat fam, thank you guys for hanging out. This has been such an honor. Um, uh, follow, make sure you follow Jeff on all of his stuff. His YouTube channel is amazing. Check it out. All the links are below. I will be back this next week streaming with someone. I'll let you know. All right.
Have a great night, you guys. Bye.
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