Con Men and Coercive Control: The Psychology of Deception with Sarah Ferris

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Hey lovely listeners and welcome back to Crime Analysts in the Intelligence Cell.

[00:00:04]And today I'm joined by a very special guest. Sarah, please introduce yourself.

[00:00:09]Hello. Well, thank you so much for having me, Laura. Uh, it's such a pleasure to be here. My name is Sarah Ferris and I am by accident, I guess, a podcast producer in True Crime Now. So, yeah.

[00:00:22]>> Now, you say by accident. We're going to get into how that happened because I think it's just such a interesting journey and so many lessons actually on in lots of ways. One about podcasting, you becoming a podcaster and now you've got multiple podcasts. So, we're going to talk about community and conning the con and your latest series that's out or season badmal. Um, but you have multiple other podcasts and your journey. You really went from no podcasting to exposing somebody who I think is quite a dangerous individual and people think of conmen as not really being that dangerous, but we're going to discuss what happened to your sister. So, when it's close to us in our family, it sounds like you then did a massive pivot. Can you just explain what you were doing before Emma's case happened and then what happened with Emma's case?

[00:01:15]And you know, for my listeners, do go and listen to the podcast because we're not going to tell you absolutely everything, but there's just so many points. And you're very welcome on Crime Analyst as well. I just want to say that I've wanted to talk to you for a little while. We met at Crime Con originally and we've always hung out when we're at Crime Con and we always have >> such a fun time. I mean, talking about crime, yes. But also just the social element as well. And I always really enjoy your company and your sense of humor. So, I'm so happy to have you on Crime Analyst.

[00:01:46]>> Likewise. It's been actually a pleasure having those meals out when we've been at Crime Con. Um, where to begin? I I guess probably where to start, the starting point is that you and I come from different sort of backgrounds in terms of you're the expert in this. I am just a general Joe Blogs civilian, I guess. And uh before I ended up doing Connie the con which is the first season of con community I was working in property. I had my own I was I had my own business. Um podcasting was something that I kind of I was listening to true crime so I could I understood the genre. A lot of people kind of got into it with the serial podcast and I was there along with them. Um, so when my sister started dating a guy on Tinder, she met him back in I think it was 2018 now. And um, she swiped right, dated him for 6 months and long story short, he ended up being a con man.

[00:02:49]At that point when she told me what had happened and we realized what had happened, she for some reason hit record 24 hours after she discovered his identity, which I think was kind of like an amazing thing to do. But we had a whole kind of year of recording as it unfolded, not knowing what we were going to do with it. And at the end of it, I think CO hit um we would seesaw between should we put this out in the world? Is that going to be more dangerous to share this story? And we would seesaw between the two of us. We'd be like, "We should definitely put this out." And then one of us would be like, "No, it's too dangerous. You know, what if somebody comes after us?" And and then it would cease the other way. The other one would go, "No, we should definitely do it." Uh and we kind of got to the point in 2020 where you know co hit we were sitting at home and we're thinking you know what this story needs to be told because even if it stops one other person from getting caught in the crosshairs of a psychopath then it will be job done. And that was our kind of north star to start the process of I sat in the lounge and worked with Garage Band and just started pulling together all the audio that we had. And that's how Coning and the Con the first season came about. Yeah, that's incredible. And I can totally relate to the shall we do it or shall we not, shall we do it, shall we not. It's quite a scary thing to put something out into the world. And also just the shame and the stigma and all of that that it brings up that is a roller coaster journey, isn't it? And we hear Emma, we hear your sister, your little sister who lives in New Zealand. You're originally from New Zealand, but we're I'm talking to you. You're in London, my home city, whilst I'm in LA >> and [laughter] you know the international flavor of this. But for, you know, Emma's perspective, listening to her and hearing that she hit record and hearing her >> throughout that journey, I mean, very brave of her to tell her story.

[00:04:53]>> It takes a lot actually to be able to do that.

[00:04:56]>> It really does. I mean, I was so proud of her. So incredibly proud of her to to step into that space and be like, you know what, this is my story. And we both came at it from kind of different angles. I think part of it for her was a a kind of processing of what had happened as we recorded the journey together. Um I came at it from I just wanted to understand how my intelligent, beautiful, clever, switched on sister had ended up in that position being um you know conned out of a substantial amount of money initially. It was uh like £150,000.

[00:05:38]Um not sure what that is in American, but you know, it was a substantial amount of money. And I just even when she started dating him, the first thing I said to her was, "What's his name? I'm going to Google him." And she said, "Oh, Sarah, I can't tell you that because he's had his identity stolen. So, he's had his whole he's had a PR company wipe his foot digital footprint off the thing. And I said, well, and I remember saying this at the time saying, Emma, that is such a massive red flag. And even though, you know, she was in New Zealand, I was in the UK, we had a really, you know, constant relationship obviously as sisters. And she would come to me and I would say, "Oh, that sounds a bit odd."

[00:06:23]or whatever. So, fast forward to uh going home for Christmas and she's still dating Andrew at this time, Andrew Tons, who is the guy that uh defrauded her. And I went into meeting him for 48 hours. It was a 48 hour period that he'd come up and he was going to stay and meet the family and stuff like that. And everybody in the family on the outside other than Emma had had all these red flags that we'd, you know, obviously bounced and reflected back to her. So when I I I even remember we set up, we were meeting him on the side of the lake at a beach and everybody knows in my family I'm a bit like of a, you know, like skeptic or I had already kind of put it out there that I thought he was a bit dodge. So and I don't hold back. So, I literally had set up like three chairs and then him another chair for him just facing me. So, when he turned up, I was like, "That chair is yours, Andrew. Have a seat." kind of thing. It's time for a grilling.

[00:07:27]And even though I had all of those red flags and was so kind of like my gut was saying something wasn't quite right, at the end of that 48 hours, I left thinking, you know what? He really loves my sister. He is the salt of the earth.

[00:07:44]And what a nice guy.

[00:07:47]And when I reflect back on that, I think of how it can happen to anybody because these people are so brilliant at targeting what you want to hear, what you want.

[00:08:02]Mirroring back to you as well, like that behavior of like, okay, what is this person looking for in me? And then mirroring that back to you so that they kind of, you know, quell all those fears really. and had all the answers ready to go. And yeah, [gasps] it was just a really crazy experience. That was me for 48 hours. Emma dated him for 6 months.

[00:08:24]And then when she found out that he was actually, you know, a con man, as you'll hear in the podcast, and I'm sure you've heard now, she actually had to pretend she was still in a relationship with him if she had any way of getting any money back from him. And the god the hood spirit it took to do that is just like academy award-winning. I don't know how she did it. It was so brave. So brave.

[00:08:50]>> And she describes how tough that was.

[00:08:53]>> Mhm.

[00:08:54]>> Very very difficult. But to go to the bank with him to try and get her money back and realizing that was really the best bet of getting her money back. It was about 200,000 US. So it clears out your s you know he was trying to clear out her savings. But I do just want to let my listeners know that Emma actually took every precaution in terms of getting a contract drawn up uh for the loan. So she didn't go in blind. She questioned a lot of things. She'd sought advice from an accountant, from her lawyer. She spoke to family members. You know, this isn't somebody who's ditsy or being dared about things. She actually sounds very savvy in terms of the way that she approached things. And you know, I just get fed up with the judgment on women. Whenever we hear stories like this, it's always, >> oh, well, that's on her. You know, >> Dirty John and Deborah Newell. I remember doing the podcast with Chris Gooffard when he first put Dirty John together and it was a podcast first. and I >> brilliant >> was very fortunate to interview him and before the podcast dropped and having listened to everything to do with John Miun I realized a he was a coercive controller and b he was likely a psychopath and I said that to Chris I said you know that he's a coercive controller he said I've never heard that term before what is it and I explained >> yeah and he said if I had heard that before I probably would have told the story slightly differently and And I said, "Yes." And that's why it's so important to understand women and how men show up to manipulate and control, but also the psychopathy element, which a lot of people miss because they say, "Oh, he's a con man. He's a confidence trickster as if it's something a bit clown rather than actually these men are very devious. They are diabolical, >> but they are >> very very they well disarming. They disarm you in every way because they are so good at reading your emotional temperature. And it's like a shark in the water that can sense blood and vulnerability. They can do that. It's like their superpower >> that people just don't realize how manipulative and how devious and how how diabolical they are. And that's on them.

[00:11:14]That's about them. It's not actually about >> the women or the victims that are taken in. And I think that's one of the things that really drove me is I wanted to rewrite that narrative of a person who gets into a situation where they are defrauded or conned is gullible, is naive, is stupid, is greedy. All of those things that we hear is the absolute antithesis of what's happening. These people have been groomed and have had the misfortune to cross paths and get in the crosshairs of a psychopath. And it's like blood in the water. Whatever they're looking for, they will find.

[00:11:52]They will find your vulnerability. And I that's what I've learned doing all these podcasts with different con artists is, you know, it doesn't really matter if you're looking for love. It doesn't matter if you are looking for financial stability.

[00:12:06]They will see that in you and then mold themselves so that they are the answer to all your problems. Um and and you know that whole idea that people are greedy or that they've bought it on themselves.

[00:12:21]I say to that and I say like you know with 10 toes down everybody has the right to find love. Everybody has the right to have financial stability and we all look for it. We all do. It's just that you unfortunately have crossed paths with this person who has got ill intent towards you. And yeah, I'm all about rewriting that narrative with you.

[00:12:45]So [laughter] >> yeah, it was so important. And I remember specifically with John Mihan and and Deborah the amount of vitrial on social media towards her saying, >> yes, >> well, she didn't do this and she didn't protect her daughters and she didn't.

[00:13:01]>> And I was the person going back trolling these individuals and saying that this is about Dirty John. There's a title there, Dirty John. It's not about Deborah and her decisions. It's about him. And reframing it is just so important because all that victim blame, all of that, it enables the psychopath.

[00:13:22]It colludes with them because everyone's so focused on her that they're not looking at him. And of course, he uses all of those things to thread the next narrative. And I think, you know, even in your podcast with with Emma, you said that he was Dirty Andrew. You actually called him >> Oh, I called him that. I called him that to his face. Literally called him dirty Andrew. And And he he just like laugh it off in such a way. And I remember, you know, I think we we have a psychologist on the podcast and one of the things that she said, I think, was that um, you know, there's kind of two masks that they wear and or two emotions that they'll tap into these guys. And it's definitely charm and anger. And those are the two gears that they switch between to get what they want. And the charm is overwhelming. Like these aren't just they're disarming. Disarming. And you know, the word says it all. you got your guard up, they'll take it down. And the other thing that I >> teach people about that charm disarms.

[00:14:24]And for me, that's a red flag. People don't talk about that being a red flag, but it is.

[00:14:28]>> And I always say to people, you know, in my day-to-day life, if someone's charming to me, the the thought bubble is, what do you want? It's not, oh, I now like you even more. It's what are you after? And if you have to be that suspicious and that skeptical, well, it's protected me being that. That's why I always end crime analysts with being curious, ask questions, trust your instincts because your instincts would tell you first, hang on, don't like this, but you're rationally um reframe it. And particularly for women, we reframe and we give someone the benefit of the doubt. And I teach people not to give them the benefit of the doubt to stick with the my gut's telling me this.

[00:15:08]I don't actually need to know anymore. I don't need any more answers. I just need to know and trust my own gut. that this is a no from me. God b God good God by goodbye and God bless. You know that's always my thing. Goodbye and God bless.

[00:15:20]>> I don't even go bless them. Just goodbye.

[00:15:23]>> Well, normally you have to leave on a sort of a semi, you know, you're managing them like Emma had to do. She had to manage her way out of that situation and she did that intuitively very well and being able to turn it back around so that she ensured that she got her money out. That takes a lot to go into a situation. Even though she felt, well, I'm in a bank, so he can't really do anything. These guys can and they do.

[00:15:47]I mean, I've seen them when they're backed into a corner, when they're exposed, they come out with all guns blazing. They are entirely unpredictable at that point and they're capable of anything. So, when I heard what she was planning to do, I did take a deep breath and think, you know, the detective saying, "Oh, well, good luck." That that's not where I would want a detective to be. I would want an officer making it very clear about the risks in dealing with someone like this.

[00:16:12]>> Fortunately, she did everything right, but her gut was absolutely right to ask her ex to take the children to put some safety precautions around herself. She did all of those things right. But even, you know, we see women do those things right, these guys are so wrong that anything can happen. And that's the diabolical nature of them. And you know, for you Sarah, going in and, you know, giving him the Inquisition and asking him all these questions and and grilling him and coming out feeling semi-satisfied.

[00:16:43]I mean, again, it just shows how diabolical and devious these guys are that they they are so brazen. And the other part is it's not just charm, it's the brazeness. And because they're so brazen and dominant and confident with it, like even laughing about dirty Andrew, dirty John, and kind of leaning into it and not being defensive and pulling out, >> he knows what he's doing. And it's all in plain sight. And that's the other part that people find disarming because he's being so brazen and so confident and with the charm that together it all disarms you. And if you've never experienced a psychopath before, >> you just don't know how diabolical they are because if you're a good person, you think people are like you. So they play into that.

[00:17:28]>> Exactly. Exactly. And that's why, you know, I I think part of what I came to understand is that you I mean, a psychologist also said this, it's I cannot claim this, but it's one of my favorite sayings is that you cannot see the red flags if you're wearing rose tinted glasses. And in con stories that, you know, I've gone through, those rose tinted glasses are almost like created and forged by the person that's conning you. They rewrite that narrative. They isolate you. They have an answer for everything. And you know, it's Yeah. I mean, I'm It feels like that the people that are on the outside, you know, reflecting that back to the person, like I was reflecting it back to Emma. We were all reflecting that back.

[00:18:18]But he he'd started to isolate her. And not only had he done that, he wasn't just creating those roasted ga glasses with words. He was doing it with actions as well. So his mother had come over and stayed uh with Emma and him. And you know, he was using a false last name.

[00:18:39]And how brazen is that to then bring your mother in and hope that she doesn't spill the beans or oh, how was how was your last stint in prison, son? you know, it was really bold. And when Emma looks back on that, she's like, "Well, she was never left alone with the mom."

[00:18:56]And when I think back on it, I do wonder I wonder if the mom was also sucked into his narrative and had been for years.

[00:19:06]Um, because they control all of the pieces of the puzzle and you only get like the corner, you know, they know the whole picture the whole time and everybody that's involved in the con just gets a tiny little piece. So you can never fully pull it together. And I think that's what happened with the police as well in that situation is they were presented with, you know, a couple of pieces of the Andrew Tonx puzzle. It takes time to put it together. And meanwhile, she's in fight or flight mode going, I just got to survive here. How dangerous is this guy? you know, um it was a really scary situation and I can tell you I've never felt so far away from New Zealand as I did that day when she went into the bank and we didn't know how it was going to play out.

[00:19:51]>> Yeah, I can totally understand that. And it wouldn't surprise me if the mother knew a lot. And often the mothers and fathers are enablers because they believe >> the narrative that's being falsely spun to them that, oh no, but I'm misunderstood. I'm the victim here. And what we know about psychopaths, they're always the victim. They're always they flip that script and then it's always no, it's just a big misunderstanding.

[00:20:17]What I was trying to do and then they come out with this whole yarn and often the moms lean into that. You think of Brian Laundry and Gabby Patito and his mother who enabled him and did and said these things which, you know, as a mother of a boy, I can't put myself in that space. It's >> abnormal to behave like that. So the mother may have just wanted to believe his version of events without testing them too much, but often they do know what's going on. And the abuser, the psychopath, is very good at respinning that narrative. And and they do lead double lives. I mean, every psychopath case I've ever worked on, they lead double lives. and what you do. You call it pulling threads, but you're really putting a composite together >> of and he's probably doing far more than what you ever find out because you have to follow someone 247, right, to really see what they're doing. And there's always lots of marks that they have on people and they develop and they, you know, continue working Danielle and then they back off because she's being too insistent. So then they go back to Emma and then they've got somebody else over here in another part of the world that they're and what John Miham was doing was exactly that. He was constantly on the dating sites. He was constantly, you know, >> creating all these different facades with different women and the image management is always the most important thing for them. But like you said, they always have a plausible reason for you ask them this question and they're so quick to respond with an answer that is plausible. And often there's a kernel of truth in it and it's spun, you know, in such a way that you can see that kernel of truth. So again, you lean into benefit of the doubt rather than >> actually I want to pursue this a little bit more. And thank goodness Emma had you around and her friends, you know, and family to be able to >> friends. Yeah.

[00:22:12]>> Keep asking the questions and doing things behind the scenes. The timing of it was kind of bizarre in that the friends find out more about him just at the time where she's signing over money.

[00:22:25]Literally, it's a sliding door, isn't it, of of a day, >> which is just wild.

[00:22:30]>> But but isn't that I mean, you know, when you think back to that, so you know, her friends were hearing all the I think it got to a point where her friends were like, I've got to we've got to trust our own gut now. Emma feels like she's in this and it still doesn't feel right to us. So I think that's what drove them to that sliding doors moment that they had the impetus to go and you know chase down the information that you know was really hard to get as well because he was using a false name. So they did so well so much digging and that was the key piece of it. I mean I I mean I felt like I was absolutely useless in the situation. and I I'd met him and thought he was a great guy by that stage. So, you know, um if it wasn't for them, I don't know how this would have unfolded.

[00:23:18]>> Well, your instinct was right initially.

[00:23:20]Let's go back to that.

[00:23:21]>> Yeah, true. [laughter] >> Take that for the win, Laura. Let's take that for the win because as I always say whether you know mainly it's to women because our instincts are often accurate that very first impression and yet we are manipulated by someone who's diabolical. But I always want women to take it back to that first immediate impression that they got and what their body was telling them. Irrespective of what the thought process was, it's what your body is telling you about someone.

[00:23:53]and yours was saying, "I'm gonna grill this guy."

[00:23:56]>> And that's what you did, right? So, your first instinct was right. It's the fact that he had all these answers because he knew he was going to be grilled. He knew what was coming. He anticipated >> I already called him dirty Andrew over Zoom by that stage. So, he knew I wasn't going to be an easy ally.

[00:24:14]>> Yeah.

[00:24:15]>> Turns out I was.

[00:24:17][laughter] >> Well, you were and you weren't. And you know the the thing with all these experiences is that we learn from them and the learning is always for me you go back to trusting that first instinct and yes >> there are times where yes you want to ask more questions but if you are someone who is dating someone and your first impressions are your body you know and are say that it's not just about the relationship it's also how we're groomed in society. So, for example, that butterflies in the stomach. This is one of my, you know, pet peeves that we watch movies that tell us butterflies in stomach equals romance. Well, butterflies in stomach does not equal romance. That's our reptilian reaction and our nervous system saying there's a problem. And every time I've asked someone to describe describe that feeling and it's actually when your stomach drops and it's that feeling of doom >> that movies written by men, directed by men, acted by men reframe it to be this is romance. And I want women to really step into their own power to know how strong our intuition is that when we feel these things, listen to it. That's a sense of impending doom. that is not yes I want to go on the next date. So if we can prevent far early on which is obviously everything your podcast is about and you make it very clear Emma says very clearly I want people to learn from this that's why >> I want to talk about what happened irrespective of the shame and the roller coaster of all these emotions of judgment shame and blame that people direct to the victim. It's to learn what these, you know, red flags look like because often we're told they're not red flags. We're told it's romance and therefore we have to decodify. And that's what I do. I decodify all this [ __ ] up [ __ ] Quite frankly, that >> the patriarchy has schooled us in to go back to our body was telling us what the truth really is. And we need to stop the mind doing the gymnastics to make it okay and just follow with the I don't want to go on the second date. Thank you very much. you seem like a nice guy, but you're not for me. And that's okay to say that. And I think you end up with, you know, it's 13 episodes, the last being about red flags. Um, you know, for me it's about the preventative side. The that red flag might look like romance, but it's not. And your boundaries being tested very early on. And lots of women have problems with establishing boundaries because we're not taught to when we're younger. We're taught to fit in and we're taught other people.

[00:26:58]Exactly. We're so groomed in that by society. I mean, it it completely I 100% agree with you there. Um and I think you just triggered something in as a memory of mine is when I was talking to one of my Katherine Schwight who you've had on the podcast as well who I do a podcast with. She's former FBI and she talks a lot about perimeter running and I think it's so key in these situations with these guys where they will run up to the your boundary, your perimeter and see how you react and you know if you react like with any kind of false start, they'll run back up and push that perimeter out and out and out and out and that's that grooming process before they're ready to go in for the kill.

[00:27:43]They really are so manipulative and so I mean they build a world, a new world that you are just like it's like the Truman Show. You are their puppet in it.

[00:27:57]And they've created the set, they've created the script, everything. And you just don't know that you're the star.

[00:28:03]And the consequences have been heartbreaking for Emma and for for many of the people that I've I've had on podcasts.

[00:28:10]>> Well, they're lifechanging. I mean it it changed your life as well and that's the other bit that you then became a podcaster and storytelling. It changed your life. You pivoted to expose >> men like this. Yes, we do get women who are confidence tricksters, but in terms of the damage that it does, it's so insidious. And that's why it's all about coercive control. It's all about them controlling the victim. And so that boundary test that Katherine calls perimeter testing, I call it compliance checking and boundary checking. So when you get that boundary violation, I would say to people, test them out in the first couple of dates. Push back on a boundary and give them a no and see how they react. And if they react badly, it's a goodbye and God bless. It's as simple as that. Because if you allow them to push the boundary, they know that when they're dating you early on, they can continue to do that. And the setup starts from day one. So, they now know that you're malleable, which is why they continue in it. And lo and behold, they continue in the relationship, either using you as a doormat or boundary violating, whatever it might be. And it might be little things to begin with where you think, "Oh, it's no real big deal, so I'm not going to, you know, but that's how they start the test off with things that don't have a massive consequence to the point where >> yes, >> then it's the bigger consequences, you know, and the the boundary violation as well for Emma. You know, her children were involved. I mean, that's a huge thing." And he used the children as weapons and leverage. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew her biggest fears.

[00:29:46]>> Yeah. All of that. all of that. Yeah.

[00:29:52]I mean, it's one of those bittersweet things that has come out of it. And Emma always says like I mean, from the podcast, from the very first Con in the Con season one of, you know, con community, what spun off from that all goes back to her bravery to stand up in the first place and be prepared to have her story told. And you know, every time that we've had other comms exposed through the podcasts or on stop the killing where we've done some incredible things in terms of um I know you know we had a assistant principal that came to us and said that the podcast information had actually helped them stop a school shooting. Emma always says, you know, like takes a bit of pride in that, as she should, that it's that her bravery that started that ball rolling for for the the stories to be heard, the cons to be exposed and the education platform to be there that that that you know, we've kind of created. So, it is bittersweet.

[00:30:54]It's not what I imagined would have happened, especially, you know, wasn't what I was doing. So always feel like a bit of an imposter when you do it. But um my north star is if it stops one person from getting harmed and we can leave the world a better place. One little thing, you know, that's that's a tick in the good column for me 100%. And you know it's it's public interest work in another because you're also you know we're talking about men like Andrew who are psychopaths who will not change.

[00:31:27]It's making sure that narrative is out there because the newspapers, traditional media doesn't really report on something that might be seen as lower level. And so when you're actually hearing Emma's experience, hearing her victim impact statement, you realize how serious it was. And equally the judge validating her, that was a very important point for her, that the judge validated her experience. She did nothing wrong. And victims need to hear that.

[00:31:53]>> She did nothing wrong. And yet his sentence, which was 2 years and 4 months, sorry for the spoiler for those who are going to go and listen to it, you know, we then learn that he didn't serve the full sentence. And what's more, that when he came out, he violated the conditions on him and he's on a dating app again on Bumble. So, it's a cautionary tale to women on dating apps because, as I always say, these men, that's where they go first. They're on these dating apps and we have no frame of reference for them, which is why I'm trying to get this register for serial perpetrators. You know, he's a domestic abuser. That's who he is first and foremost. And people don't traditionally see someone like him like that, but he is. He's a coercive controller. Do >> you know what? That is that hits so hard when you say that because you know that's not a label that we've had ever said out loud, but it's so effing true.

[00:32:50]And it hurts my heart that that happened, Emma.

[00:32:54]>> Yeah. And I I could hear that in both your voices. I could hear that in hers.

[00:32:57]And giving it a different uh you know, I don't like to put people in categories because they jump out of it, but particularly perpetrators, but that's who he is. He's going in to dating sites, a target-rich environment to find women who are looking for love and earnestly looking for love. And that's that's the pools these guys fish in. That's why Dirty John was on all the dating apps, right? There's no frame of reference for them. And there's no policing on those sites.

[00:33:26]>> There's no And that's what we're also trying to change with the register so that the police must tell the next victim.

[00:33:33]>> It's on the police. It's not on you, your sister, your brother, your best friend, and Emma to be doing all this digging. It's actually the police know his history and he's at it again. So, they should be on top of him and say, >> you know, it's so true.

[00:33:48]>> It's not okay.

[00:33:49]>> It's not okay. And I think that was like the most shocking thing about when he came out of jail was we got rung up by a journalist telling us that a woman in Oakland in New Zealand had rung him because she'd gone on a date with him and he led with the fact that he was a spy. Like he led with it this time like you know he'd worked his way into that with Emma like really slowly building it up and you know dropping it later in the piece but he like brazenly came out with that with this date. This woman goes home, she's got that feeling in her stomach, the butterflies and she automatically googled him and he was using his real name and up popped the article of Emma's story and it was like the journalist rang us and said, "Do you know this?" And we were like, "No, but flipping hell, good job. She's, you know, the podcast has stopped that one woman from getting conned." You know, >> which is amazing, you know, and >> one of many though, right? But that's the power of it, you know, and the fact that when he's in prison, you've got some probation officers saying, "Oh, he's done all the courses. He's ticked those boxes. Oh, he's doing really well.

[00:34:57]We're going to release him early." I'm dealing with that every day at the moment with >> pretty big cases involving psychopaths because prison is an artificial environment for one. So, they haven't got targets all around them. They are very goal orientated. They want to get out. So, that's their goal. And they're going to be laser focused. and they behave really well in prison. They are model prisoners. So they tick all of those boxes. So they are they do tend to be released early. And the problem that we have is that it's their brains that are the problem. People professionally might say and historically and I know your doctor Sophie said, "Oh, it's personality." It's actually brains. We now our neuroscience has moved on and with brain scans we can see their brains are different. So they're never going to change.

[00:35:44]>> Wow. there. That's how they're wired.

[00:35:46]Just like you and I breathe oxygen, this is how they behave. So, he will not stop. So, the fact that he then targets somebody else on a dating site, but now he's even more brazen stepping into, and by the way, every psychopath I've worked, they always have the story of >> spy, you know, counterterrorism, uh, doctors without borders, you know, these extraordinary things. So, anybody who tells you that on your initial dating, that is an absolute red flag because I've worked with people who are special forces. They are very unassuming. You would never even know [laughter] and they would never even tell you.

[00:36:22]>> Being a spy, don't tell everyone you're a freaking spy. Just a baseline, you know. [gasps] >> But these things, they always sound like, you know, because a lot of these guys, they then disappear for a while and they're because they have another mark. So actually their behavior tallies with what they're saying, but it's because they are running other deceptions with other people.

[00:36:43]>> And so she she did all the right things.

[00:36:45]But the good thing is you can say, "Oh, and you should listen to this podcast because it's got all the history about who he is." is and for the police, >> you know, this is where I do despair because I think the duty is absolutely on them to be much more proactive and not to be seeing these things as lowle because these guys escalate and what you've just described is the escalation >> to walking straight into, oh, I'm a spy or not any of the um, you know, more nuanced stuff that he did before. He's now being very brazen. Well, why?

[00:37:20]because he learns that it works and if it doesn't with her he go to the next because there's no real consequence >> and that consequence is the problem the the lack of accountability and the lack of real consequence of if his biggest fear is going to prison recall him to prison >> and that's what they should have done when he breached >> and I mean I think the thing is the system's so slow as well like if I look back at Andrew Tons's history prior to dating Emma he'd been in prison in New Zealand for fraud different kinds of fraud. So I think one was like a business fraud and then whilst out on like waiting for that to go to trial, he then doubled down and committed another fraud which then landed him in jail before he dated Emma. He comes out, he dates Emma, he then goes back in. He comes out, he goes to Australia and also, I think this is partly because of the podcast, he goes back to his old hometown. And his old friends have listened to the podcast and realized that back in 2015, he had been running this scam to his friends and family and associates where he would import Harley-Davidsons from America for cheap.

[00:38:29]And so they were paying like, you know, 30,000, give me the Harley-Davidson, that's great. Every single one of those unfortunately fell off the back of the boat, you know, kind of story. And none of the friends because he'd got this charm and they were all his friendship network. You couldn't imagine that. You just think poor unlucky Andrew. So they thought that for like years till they heard the podcast, stuck it all together and then some brave person has gone and he's now got 37 charges I think against him for that crime back in 2015.

[00:39:01]He goes to court for that in June 2023 June realizes maybe I've been coped.

[00:39:09]So in August that same year, he does a big landscaping con where he conss five or six people out of $100,000 by just, you know, taking their money for jobs he wasn't going to commit. It's like this, I'm already kind of getting caught. I'm going to double the hell down and just keep going. And it's that red line that they never feel that you and I would feel so uncomfortable in that space, but they don't feel the discomfort, I think, is what I've realized. And that's the really hard thing when you are in a situation you can't imagine. I could never imagine coming from a place where you know I stick on the right side of the law. I mean I'd be beside myself if I accidentally walked out of the shop without paying for the milk that I had in my hand and forgotten about. But that's their default is just living in that red line space. And one of the reasons why we'd make good you we make good targets cuz we just don't expect it. It's not the human behavior that we are used to or exposed to.

[00:40:12]>> Yeah. I mean that's no surprise to me at all. They have a fearless dominance. And that fearless dominance comes and the brazenness comes from the fact that they have no rail guards. There's nothing to stop them. Like you or I have the moral, the ethical, the all these things that go through our head about stopping us from doing whatever might be reckless.

[00:40:33]For them, they don't have that. So that means that a lot of noise in their heads just disappears. They don't have >> that range of emotions and they really are just very goal and task focused and their goal is all self-interest.

[00:40:48]Everything is about their own self-interest. So it that's that cavalier disregard and it can come off as callousness because they don't have that range of emotions and and feelings and that's what makes them so dangerous.

[00:41:01]They they lean in and it means that when they're exposed >> or when they feel they're backed into a corner that's when they can really come out. You know the phrase is all guns blazing literally because they do not want to be exposed at any cost. So the more that you're p penning them you know into a corner and the more their image is being exposed for them image management and impression management is the most important thing they will protect that at all costs. So you have to be very careful when you are exposing someone like that and just because he hasn't been violent yet that you know of >> that doesn't mean to say that he won't be. And that's where again, you know, perceptions of what does dangerous and risky people look like and behavior look like? Well, it looks like this guy and you know, Andrew Tons being his real name, but Andrew Thompson, all the derivatives that he's used, you know, and I'd love a team to follow him 247 because [sighs] >> there will be so many, you know, every minute of every day is looking for a mark, a grift, and that's how they operate. And it's also they get a kick out of it. I mean, they enjoy being seen as, you know, this successful businessman when really he's a truck driver. You know, the bad series, he's wearing the Admiral costume.

[00:42:22]>> You need a team to follow the Badmiral 24/7 because we don't know where the hell he is at the moment. And you know, you that guy's been grifting for 25 years minimum. So, >> hey lovely. I'm jumping in here to wrap part one of this fascinating interview with Sarah Ferris. And yes, I know she's in midflow and we talk about profiling Peter Cal, the fake admiral in part two.

[00:42:46]And you definitely don't want to miss that, but it's really important just to take a step back and go back to Emma for a moment to acknowledge how brave she was telling her story. You know, when victims like Emma and previously I spoke with Sam Bofler, the first victim of coercive control to see a charge conviction and prison sentence in New South Wales. When they bravely come forward and share their stories, they help themselves. It's very cathartic. It helps themselves understand the trauma of what happened to them and reframe it and have their voice and take their power back.

[00:43:25]But it also really helps all of you. And that's what's really important here, that you help others identify their own experiences. Just like when I first talked to Deborah Newell, who was one of Dirty John's victims, she said I gave her her dignity back when I spoke with her about coercive control and gave it a name. Well, I'm going to do that again here and say that what you heard about Emma's experience, that's coercive control and it's economic abuse. So, it might look like it's just about money, but it's not. It's actually about the drive for control and power and dominance and yes, they get a reward of money, but it's much more than just money when we think about the psychology.

[00:44:11]So, it's so important to talk about the abusers and the perpetrators who do this because often it's seen as low-level abuse, but the harm is so insidious and longlasting. So, we have to talk about them and shine a light on these abusers because they will just keep doing it.

[00:44:28]They will target victim after victim after victim. And it's really important for someone like me to share my expertise to pinpoint the patterns of behavior and the red flags for you to look out for. They're not always that obvious. But the other thing I'll share with you is that these men make a beline for the dating apps apps and dating websites. I've seen it across so many years. They go there to target victims to hunt for victims. It's a target-rich environment. That's what we call it for them. And you're looking for love when you go on them. You're earnestly looking for love, which means that you have a tendency to overshare because you're looking for a match. And they use that information and they socially engineer and they love bomb and they make you feel special. They match everything and they make you feel so good about yourselves. This too good to be true notion. So we really have to spotlight these types of behaviors and make the point for me that there is no proactive joining up of these men's histories of abuse, of controlling behavior and of restraining orders. So many of them have multiple restraining orders and there's no registry of restraining orders.

[00:45:46]There's no register for these offenders and dating apps and websites don't ban them when I believe they should be banned and there should be a proactive duty on the police, prison, and probation to target and monitor and manage these men and for there to be a register. So, it's very important that people understand that that it's not safe when you go on dating sites. These men have not been vetted. Nothing is done. And that is a conscious choice.

[00:46:13]It's a conscious choice by the dating websites and apps. We flagged it many times when I was the CEO of Paladin, the National Stalking Advocacy Service, and they still didn't want to do anything proactively. And it's a conscious choice now for governments all around the world to render these men invisible. And that's why what I do here is very important of shining a light on these men and the patterns of behavior. And prevention is so important. I don't want you to get yourself into a position where you're being targeted because the harm is irreparable as you've heard from Emma's story. So, I want to get into prevention. Those of you who are following me know that that's a really big thing for me. And you heard that there was an element of that with Andrew Tonx. You know, family and friends and community can play a big part here as well as the criminal justice system. So, we have to create change and that's something I've been a part of leading a campaign for serial perpetrators like this to be on a register and you can sign that petition in the show notes. I also share my top tips when you're dating and I put them together when I ram paladin because we kept seeing dating apps and websites being the place where men would target women. So, I have a dos and a don'ts and you can go to the laurichchards.com my website. You can also attend a master class. I talk about this a lot on my coercive control master classes. And if you want to register for the next one, which will be in the fall, you can email laura [email protected] and you can join the crime analyst squad. I put a lot of information in there over on Patreon, patreon.com/crimeanalyst.

[00:47:51]And I've got an offer running at the moment. Up until May 6th, you get 50% off annual membership. So do take advantage of that promo.

[00:48:00]Arm yourself with the knowledge. Arm yourself with an the information. If you were going to buy a house, you would build a knowledge base about every step of buying a house, right? To make sure the foundation is sound. You have to do the same when you're dating someone.

[00:48:15]It's so important you invest in that time gaining that knowledge if you are dating. And you never know when you will need this information. So that's why I do what I hear on crime analysts. I'm trying to mainstream this information.

[00:48:29]So, please help share this knowledge, share these episodes. Don't forget to subscribe. Make sure you get part two of my interview with Sarah Ferris where we talk about profiling Peter Cal who is the subject of her second season and he was a fake admiral and so many people from high level leaders and veterans and detectives were taken in by this guy. So that tells us it's about how good these manipulators are and that we must put them under the microscope and not the victims. That's really important that we look at the perpetrators behaviors and we stop the victim blame. Okay, until next time, be curious, ask questions, and always trust your instincts.