Science should be developed away from being 'exclusive club' - Nobel prize winner to F24

[00:00:00]Our guest this morning grew up in the Jordanian capital Amman in a family of Palestinian refugees. Omar M. Yaghi moved to the United States at the age of 15 and working his way through academia via community college obtained a PhD in chemistry in 1990. He has held professorships at the University of Michigan, UCLA, and University of California at Berkeley. And in 2025 he was awarded the Nobel Prize in chemistry along with Susumu Kitagawa and Richard Robson for their work on developing metal-organic frameworks. It was announced this week that Professor Yaghi is to join Tsinghua University in Beijing to lead a new AI-driven research center.

[00:00:44]Uh thank you very much for joining us, Professor Yaghi. Um can I start by asking you you were born in Jordan to Palestinian parents and you went on to become a Nobel laureate. What moment changed the course of your life?

[00:01:01]>> Well, I think very early on in in school when I was 10 years old, I discovered what is called molecular drawing or sketches of molecules. I didn't know at the time that they represented molecules, but when I did figure it out later that they are molecules and they're the constituents of everything living and non-living, well, I was hooked on chemistry and my interest deepened and deepened over time.

[00:01:27]Um and of course it led to us discovering a whole new class of materials.

[00:01:33]>> Now, when you moved to the United States quite young, um was it your um intention to to um go to college and get that um chemistry training from the very beginning?

[00:01:49]>> Absolutely. We were uh it was drilled into us as we were growing up that education education education is the key to success, key to providing opportunity, key to making a better life for yourself and and your family and ultimately to your community.

[00:02:08]>> Now, for those without a chemistry background, can you explain in a nutshell what you won the Nobel Prize for and why it matters?

[00:02:21]>> We basically use molecules as building blocks just like Legos to make new forms of matter.

[00:02:30]We can use the constituents of minerals and organics and stitch them together to make all kinds of forms that encompass space.

[00:02:41]For example, in 1 g of these materials we call metal-organic frameworks or MOFs that were cited by the Nobel Committee, 1 g encompasses as much space as in a football field and more recently we've become even better at designing these and 1 g can encompass now up to two football fields and that's the space within which one can trap molecules like hydrogen to make clean energy or take CO2 from air or from power plants to make clean air. And more, back in 2014 we discovered a way of taking water out of the air to make specially dry air, desert air, to make pure drinking water. So, these things have really transformed material science and chemistry, not just because of their extraordinary properties, but because the chemistry that we develop is widely applicable to a wide range of molecules that can act as building blocks just like as I said, just like Legos in a massive Lego set.

[00:03:51]>> Now, we can can I just move on to the actual accessibility of science? You've said that talent is everywhere, but opportunity is not. What message would you give to a young person in say conflict zones or also from underprivileged backgrounds who dream of becoming scientists?

[00:04:15]>> Well, I've been working on on this for a long time and one can observe that talent goes to very few countries around the world. So, and and there's just not enough positions in in the research strong countries accommodate all this talent demand. And so, I think a new way to think about it is is for us to build by going to where the talent is. And in many ways develop science so that it's not just an exclusive club, but rather a distributed science that allows talent from around the world to plug in. And distribution of knowledge benefits everyone. Benefits the research strong countries as well as the emerging countries. So, for young people let's say do not have access to great laboratories.

[00:05:12]I would say that I wouldn't wait until the ideal conditions present themselves for you to plug into doing research or to the acquisition of knowledge, to developing your skills as a scientist or as a scholar. I would just look around and see what might be available and start there. The important thing is to start and to use what you have to study and to dig deep. And as you dig deeper and deeper into your study, the more and more interesting things get.

[00:05:48]And of course, the more and more likely you will find your passion. And in the fullness of time, you might make a discovery. And that discovery could change the world. So, I think anyone should be able to look around at what resources are available in your community and plug into these these resources. No matter how little they might be or or perhaps not as sophisticated as as equipment or facilities that we might have in the research strong countries, but nevertheless, that there are facilities. Even a high school laboratory has enough in it for one to start investigating matter on the atomic molecular level and start asking key questions and to plug in to begin the process of learning how to do research.

[00:06:43]>> Now, chemistry is probably in the in the popular imagination, is probably less understood and probably a little bit overlooked compared to other STEM fields.

[00:06:55]Do you find that it is easy to engage young people in chemistry?

[00:07:02]>> One of the things that has always inspired me is well, when I interact with younger students, no matter what field that they're interested in, they immediately are stimulated by chemistry.

[00:07:16]Stimulated by the fact that everything around us is molecules. Even as I mentioned before, living and non-living uh objects are all uh based on molecules.

[00:07:28]And think about it. Whenever society faces a problem, we go to the chemists to figure out what kind of materials could address those problems. So, understanding matter on the molecular level, on the atomic and molecular level, is the core of chemistry and it's an integral part of solving societal problems. And I think once you engage young people in such discussion, I the inspiring thing is that I've always found that they are really, really excited and very interested. Now, the way we teach chemistry may not be the ideal way to get people really, really interested, get these young students very, very interested. So, So, I think the emergence of AI as a as a way to communicate and as a way to enhance how we teach chemistry is going to play a major role in in increasing the number of students who would be interested in chemistry and other and other let's say basic sciences such as physics and and biology.

[00:08:33]>> Now, you mentioned AI there and your new position, which was just announced this week and at Beijing's Tsinghua University, is heading an AI-driven research center.

[00:08:45]AI that that gets most of the headlines is associated with large language models and generative AI, but it's a much broader fields than that. In what way is your particular field of research different?

[00:09:02]>> Well, our our research about stitching molecules together to make all kinds of of new materials. I mean, we discovered and Nobel Prize awarded this discovery. We discovered a way of making new matter and varying these materials almost infinitely. So, they lend themselves to using large language models and machine learning algorithm techniques. And and so, this was a natural step to expanding this research and capitalizing on its impact on sustainability, on solving sustainability problems such as carbon capture from air such as generating water from air. These things, these discoveries are only enhanced by the use of AI. It It not only makes things faster and better, but potentially we can make them cheaper so that they can reach the entire world so that we can make differences in other people's lives in um widely across [clears throat] the world.

[00:10:09]The field is already being investigated in over 100 countries. So, I think we wanted to make this more uh even more accessible and that people everywhere can plug into this chemistry.

[00:10:23]>> And finally, uh Professor Yaghi, uh your Nobel Prize aside, what is your most your proudest achievement in life?

[00:10:33]>> Well, to me, I think working with students is is one of the most uh rewarding experiences and and it is the thing that really keeps me excited.

[00:10:44]Working with students in the lab and mentoring them on how uh discoveries are made and what science is and and when they discover something, well, it transforms not just me and and my ability to to think and solve problem, but also transforms the students. It makes students realize that they can go beyond what they thought their potential is and what better way is to teach and mentor. And so, this is the most exciting thing I would say that I do on a daily basis.