Haiti Was Forced to Pay Its Enslavers for 122 Years — The Debt That Bankrupted a Nation

[00:00:00]Imagine winning a war against the most powerful military on earth. Imagine that the people who fought that war were not trained soldiers, not aristocrats with inherited wealth and centuries of military tradition, but enslaved human beings. People who had been worked to the bone on sugar plantations, whipped, branded, mutilated, and treated as livestock for generations. Now, imagine that after they won, after they defeated not just one but three European empires, the world punished them for it. not with another invasion, but with something far more insidious. A bill. A bill so large, so crushing, and so perverse in its logic that it would drain the wealth of this new nation for over a century. This is the story of Haiti, the first free black republic in the history of the world and the debt that was designed to make sure its freedom never truly meant prosperity. It is one of the most grotesque financial arrangements ever imposed on a sovereign nation. And the worst part is almost nobody talks about it. To understand how Haiti ended up paying its former enslavers for the privilege of being free, you have to go back to a time when the western third of a Caribbean island called Hispanola was the most profitable piece of real estate on the planet. The French called it Sandang. And by the late 1700s, it was without exaggeration the jewel of the entire French colonial empire. This small colony produced roughly 40% of all the sugar consumed in Europe and the Americas and about 60% of the world's coffee. Its exports were so staggeringly valuable that nearly twothirds of France's foreign investments were tied up in the colony. 1 million French citizens depended directly or indirectly on trade flowing from Sandang to maintain their standard of living. The wealth pouring out of this single island colony generated more revenue for France than all 13 North American colonies produced for Great Britain combined. The port of Cap Franc was one of the busiest harbors in the Atlantic. An average of 600 ships sailed between Sandang and Bordeaux every year. their halls packed with raw sugar, molasses, coffee, cotton, and indigo. For the French aristocracy, owning a sugar plantation in Sandang was the equivalent of owning a tech company in Silicon Valley today.

[00:02:00]Fortunes were built overnight, dynasties were funded, wars were financed, and every last sentime of it was extracted from the bodies of enslaved Africans. By the late 1780s, the enslaved population of Stoming had swollen to roughly 500,000 souls. They outnumbered the white colonists by more than 10 to1. And the conditions under which these people lived and labored were by the testimony of even contemporary observers who were themselves accustomed to the horrors of Atlantic slavery astonishingly brutal.

[00:02:28]The sugar plantations of Sandom operated like death factories. The work was relentless. Harvesting and processing sugarcane required roundthe-clock labor during the grinding season with enslaved workers feeding cane into massive crushing mills by hand, boiling the juice in scalding copper vets, and hauling the raw product to drying sheds.

[00:02:46]The hours were so long, the labor so physically devastating, and the nutrition so inadequate that the enslaved population of the colony could not sustain itself through natural reproduction. The death rate consistently exceeded the birth rate.

[00:02:59]Historians estimate that the average working life of a plantation slave born in the colony was no more than 15 years.

[00:03:05]More than half of all enslaved Africans who arrived on the island's shores died within their first 5 years. To replace the dead, French slavers imported staggering numbers of people from Africa. By 1787, more than 40,000 enslaved people were being shipped to Sand Domain every single year. Over the life of the colony, France transported nearly 800,000 Africans to its shores, almost double the number carried to all of North America. The violence used to maintain the system was systematic, ritualized, and designed to terrorize.

[00:03:34]The whip was the most common instrument, but colonial records described far worse. Enslaved people were branded with hot irons. They were fitted with spiked metal collars. They were mutilated as punishment for attempting to escape.

[00:03:45]Boiling sugarcane juice was poured over the heads of those who disobeyed. Some were buried up to their necks and left for insects to devour. Others were burned alive. France had established a legal code governing slavery, the Code Noir in 1685. But in practice, colonial courts almost never interveneed to protect the enslaved. The code was window dressing. The real law of Sandang was the planters's absolute power over every person he claimed to own. The social structure of the colony was rigidly stratified in a way that made the violence not just possible but inevitable. At the top sat the grand blancs, the wealthy white plantation owners, many of them born in France, who controlled the political and economic apparatus of the colony. Below them were the petty blanc, poor whites who held no plantations but clung fiercely to the racial hierarchy that placed them above everyone with darker skin. And then there were the Jean Duler Libra, the free people of color, many of whom were themselves wealthy and educated, some even owning plantations and enslaved people of their own. Despite their wealth, they were denied political rights and subjected to humiliating racial codes. They could not sit in the same sections of theaters as whites.

[00:04:49]They could not wear certain fabrics.

[00:04:51]They could not practice certain professions. And at the very bottom, comprising more than 90% of the population, were the enslaved, the human engines of the entire machine. The colony existed in a state of permanent tension. The white planters feared revolt. The free people of color resented their exclusion from power. And the enslaved endured conditions so extreme that the colony had to import tens of thousands of new captives every year just to replace the dead. It was not a society. It was a pressure cooker.

[00:05:18]And eventually, inevitably, it exploded.

[00:05:20]And yet, despite all of this, despite the whips, the chains, the starvation, and the casual murder, the enslaved people of Santa Mang did something that no enslaved population had ever done on this scale. They rose up, and they won.

[00:05:32]The spark came in August of 1791. The ideas of the French Revolution, which had exploded across Europe with its rallying cry of liberty, equality, and fraternity, had crossed the Atlantic.

[00:05:43]But the irony was thick enough to choke on. France was declaring the universal rights of man while simultaneously running the most profitable slave colony on earth. That contradiction was not lost on the enslaved people of Sandong.

[00:05:55]On the night of August 22nd, in a ceremony at a place called Ba Kaimon in the northern mountains, a vod priest named Duty Bman led a gathering of enslaved conspirators in a pact. What followed was not a spontaneous riot. It was a coordinated insurrection. Within days, the northern plain of Sandang was a blaze. Enslaved workers systematically burned sugar refineries, coffee plantations, and the great houses of their masters.

[00:06:19]180 sugar plantations were destroyed in the first weeks. Hundreds of coffee and indigo operations were raised. Thousands of white colonists were killed. The revolution had begun. What followed was 13 years of the most complex multi-sided warfare the Caribbean had ever seen.

[00:06:34]Enslaved insurgents, free people of color, royalist whites, Republican whites, Spanish forces, and British invasion armies all fought for control of the colony at various points. Out of this chaos emerged one of history's most remarkable military and political minds, a formerly enslaved man named Tusan Luvver. Tusan was a brilliant strategist who understood not only battlefield tactics, but the art of political maneuvering between empires. He initially allied with Spain against France, then switched sides when the French Republic formally abolished slavery in 1794. By 1798, Tusant had defeated both the British and the Spanish, effectively becoming the ruler of the colony. He rebuilt the plantation economy using a system of paid labor, negotiated international trade agreements, and in 1801 promulgated his own constitution, naming himself governor general for life. But Tusant's autonomy was a direct challenge to one man in particular, Napoleon Bonapart.

[00:07:27]Napoleon had grand ambitions for the Western Hemisphere. He envisioned a vast French empire stretching from the Caribbean to the Mississippi. Sandang was the lynchpin, and Tusan Louvetur, a formerly enslaved black man governing France's most valuable colony on his own terms, was an affront that Napoleon simply could not tolerate. In early 1802, Napoleon dispatched a massive military expedition of somewhere between 16,000 and 20,000 battleh hardened troops. Some of them veterans of his European campaigns under the command of his brother-in-law, General Charles LLA.

[00:07:59]Their orders were explicit. Retake Sandang, remove Tusant, restore French authority, and when the time was right, reinstitute slavery. The invasion was initially devastating. The clerk's forces occupied the major port cities.

[00:08:12]Two of Tusan's most important generals, Jeanjac Desalins and Hri Kristoff, initially submitted to the French. Tusan himself, after months of fighting, agreed to a ceasefire in May of 1802.

[00:08:24]But the French had no intention of honoring any agreement. They invited Tusan out to a meeting under a flag of truce, seized him, clapped him in chains, and shipped him across the Atlantic to a frigid mountain prison in eastern France called the Ford Deju.

[00:08:36]There, locked in a stone cell in the Jura Mountains, Dan Luvetur died on April 7th, 1803. He was denied adequate food, warmth, and medical care. He was quite simply left to die. But Napoleon's treachery backfired catastrophically.

[00:08:51]When news reached Sandang that France had restored slavery on the neighboring island of Guadaloop with horrific bloodshed, the entire colony erupted.

[00:08:58]Desolines Kristoff and the Mulatto leader Alexandra Pion men who had briefly submitted tollair now reunited in a war of total liberation and this time there would be no negotiations. The formerly enslaved fighters were joined by a silent but devastating ally yellow fever. The disease tore through the French ranks with merciless efficiency.

[00:09:18]Clair himself died of it in November of 1802. His successor, General Donasan de Roshambo, resorted to tactics that can only be described as genocidal. He drowned rebel prisoners by the thousands. He imported attack dogs from Cuba to hunt down and devour insurgents.

[00:09:33]But nothing could stop the revolution now. At the Battle of Verier on November 18th, 1803, Desolines led the Haitian forces to a decisive victory over the remnants of Napoleon's army. The French were finished. On January 1st, 1804, Desolines stood before his people and declared the independence of a new nation. He gave it the name its original Tyino inhabitants had used, Haiti, meaning land of mountains. It was the second independent republic in the Western Hemisphere after the United States. It was the first nation in history to permanently abolish slavery through revolution. And it was the only nation ever founded by people who had themselves been enslaved. For a brief moment, Haiti stood as a beacon of what was possible. But the world was not ready for what Haiti represented. A black republics forged by enslaved people who had overthrown their masters was a living, breathing threat to every slaveolding nation on earth. The United States, where over a million people remained in bondage, refused to recognize Hades independence for nearly six decades, terrified that the example might inspire revolt among its own enslaved population. Britain, while officially opposed to the slave trade, was deeply uncomfortable with the president. Spain still held colonies throughout the Americas, and France, humiliated and enraged, wanted revenge, or at the very least, compensation. In the years immediately following independence, Haiti was completely isolated diplomatically and economically. No nation would trade with it openly. No government would extend diplomatic recognition. For a country whose entire economy had been built around export agriculture, this was a slow strangulation. Haiti could grow coffee and sugar, but it had no one to sell it to. The nation's early leaders understood that breaking out of this isolation was an existential necessity.

[00:11:14]As early as 1814, Hades President Alexandre Peton began quietly floating the idea of paying France some form of compensation in exchange for diplomatic recognition and the resumption of trade.

[00:11:25]It was an extraordinary concession, a nation of freed slaves offering to pay their former masters for the privilege of being acknowledged as a country. But the geopolitical reality left them with agonizingly few options.

[00:11:36]Then came 1825, and what happened that year ranks among the most cynical acts of international extortion in modern history. In April, a French naval squadron appeared on the horizon off the coast of Haiti. 14 warships bristling with cannons carrying the threat of an outright blockade, or worse, a full-scale invasion and the reimposition of slavery. Aboard the flagship was a French envoy carrying a royal ordinance from King Charles I 10th of France. The terms were non-negotiable. Haiti would pay France an indemnity of 150 million gold franks to be delivered in five annual installments of 30 million each. In return, France would graciously recognize Hades independence and reduce tariffs on French imports by 50%. The indemnity was ostensibly to compensate former French plantation owners for their lost property. And let us be absolutely clear about what that property included. It included the enslaved human beings themselves. Former slave holders submitted detailed claims to the French government listing the monetary value of the people they had once owned. Haiti was being asked to pay for its own people to compensate their torturers for the loss of their victims.

[00:12:41]It was as if a kidnapper sued his escaped hostage for loss of income. The amount was staggering.

[00:12:48]150 million Franks was roughly 10 times Hades annual revenue. To put that in perspective, that same year, the United States paid France just 80 million franks for the entire Louisiana purchase. a territory that encompassed roughly 828,000 square miles stretching from the Gulf of Mexico to the Canadian border. Haiti, a nation smaller than the state of Maryland, was being asked to pay nearly double that amount. And the sum demanded actually exceeded the estimated value of the losses claimed by the former planters by approximately 50 million francs. France wasn't just seeking restitution, it was seeking punishment. Hades president at the time, Jeepierre Buoyet, signed the ordinance.

[00:13:25]He had no choice. The warships were there. The threat of invasion and reinslavement was real. And years of total diplomatic isolation had left the country's economy gasping. But everyone involved knew the cruel mathematics.

[00:13:37]Haiti could not hope to generate 30 million Franks a year. It simply did not have the money. And France knew this. In fact, France had designed it that way.

[00:13:45]Because if Haiti could not pay in cash, it would have to borrow. And from whom would it borrow? French banks, of course. This was the architecture of what historians now call the double debt. Haiti would pay France directly for the indemnity. and it would simultaneously pay French bankers the interest on the loans required to meet France's demands. Every Frank that left Haiti enriched France twice over. It was a financial trap of extraordinary elegance and cruelty. The first payment came due almost immediately and Haiti could not pay it. The country scraped together what it could, but had to take out a massive loan from a French bank to cover the shortfall. That initial loan alone consumed virtually every sentiment the government had. The French bank charged punishing interest rates and heavy commissions. Haiti was now bleeding from two wounds at once. the indemnity and the debt service on the loans taken to pay it. By 1838, after years of missed and partial payments, France agreed to reduce the total indemnity from 150 million francs to 90 million to be paid over 30 years. But by that point, Haiti had already been drained so thoroughly that even the reduced amount remained catastrophic.

[00:14:45]The payments continued decade after decade, consuming the lion's share of the government's revenues. Money that could have been spent building roads, schools, hospitals, and ports flowed instead across the Atlantic to Paris. By the time the principle on the French indemnity was finally settled in 1883, Haiti had been paying for nearly 60 years. But the debt was far from over.

[00:15:05]Because of the loans Haiti had taken to finance the payments, the country now owed enormous sums to a network of French and later American banks. The interest payments, the refinancing fees, the commissions, all of it compounded.

[00:15:17]In the late 1800s, a Parisian bank called Credit Industry Alle Commercial essentially took control of Hades national bank, the bank national de la Republic dei. Through this arrangement, a French financial institution controlled the central banking apparatus of a sovereign nation, siphoning Haitian wealth directly into Parisian coffers.

[00:15:34]The national bank was not truly Haitian at all. It was a mechanism for extracting wealth disguised as a financial institution. And when that French bank eventually lost its grip, American financiers were waiting in the wings. By the early 1900s, the United States had developed its own predatory interest in Haiti. The National City Bank of New York, the institution we now know as City Bank, began maneuvering aggressively to gain control of the Haitian National Bank and the country's customs revenues. A former journalist turned lobbyist named Roger Farnum, who served as a vice president at National City Bank, became the key architect of American intervention. Farnum had enormous influence over the United States Secretary of State, William Jennings Bryan, and he used that access to push relentlessly for American military involvement in Haiti. In December of 1914, United States Marines landed in Porto Prince, marched to the National Bank, packed $500,000 in gold reserves into crates, loaded them onto the gunboat USS Mias, and shipped them to National City Bank's vaults on Wall Street. The Haitian government called it robbery. The Americans called it safekeeping.

[00:16:34]7 months later, in July of 1915, after the assassination of Haitian President Jean Vilbrun Guom Sam, 300 United States Marines invaded Haiti and began a military occupation that would last 19 years. During the occupation, which stretched from 1915 to 1934, the United States effectively ran Haiti as a client state. American officials rewrote the Haitian Constitution, notably removing a provision that had prohibited foreign ownership of land, a law dating back to independence that was designed to prevent any return of colonial plantation economics. Marines controlled the country's finances, customs operations, and security forces. A new Haitian military, the Jean Marie Dehati, was created and trained by United States officers to serve American interests.

[00:17:16]Forced labor was imposed on Haitian peasants to build roads and other infrastructure, a practice that bore a grim resemblance to the Corv labor system of French colonial times.

[00:17:25]Resistance was met with extreme violence. In the southern town of Lake Hayes in 1929, Marines opened fire on a crowd of 1500 unarmed peasants who were protesting new taxes, killing at least 24 and wounding more than 50. Over the course of the entire occupation, an estimated 15,000 Haitians were killed.

[00:17:44]50,000 peasants lost their land and through it all, American banks profited handsomely from their control of Haitian finances. The occupation ended in 1934, but American financial control persisted. National City Bank held on to its position in Hades banking system until 1935 when it finally sold its stake in the National Bank to the Haitian government, but only after concluding that without the protection of the Marines, the arrangement was no longer worth the public relations risk and the debts, those seemingly immortal debts, continued to compound. It was not until 1947, 122 years after King Charles I 10th's warships appeared on the horizon, that Haiti made its final payment on the loans and interest connected to the original independence indemnity. Think about that for a moment. People who had been born, grown old, and died without ever seeing their country free of this debt. Generations of Haitian school children were taught a patriotic song urging them to reach into their own pockets to help their government raise the money still owed to France. And these were some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere. So, what did this debt actually cost Haiti? The raw numbers are devastating enough.

[00:18:49]Financial records show that Haiti paid a total of approximately 112 million francs over the course of nearly seven decades of direct payments to France, equivalent to roughly $560 million in today's currency. But that figure only captures the payments themselves. It does not capture what economists call the opportunity cost, the wealth that Haiti could not generate because its capital was being drained abroad rather than invested at home. A team of investigators at the New York Times in a landmark series published in 2022 called The Ransom calculated that if the money Haiti paid to France had instead remained in the country and been invested in its own development, it would have added approximately $21 billion to Hades economy over the last two centuries. Other estimates put the total cost of the double debt, including the impact on economic growth, at somewhere between 11 billion and $115 billion. But the true cost cannot be measured in dollars alone. The debt fundamentally warped Hades economy and society for generations. Because the government had to dedicate such an enormous share of its revenues to debt service, it could not invest in the things that nations need to develop.

[00:19:54]Roads were not built, schools were not funded, hospitals were not constructed, ports were not modernized. The tax burden required to service the debt was so heavy that Haitian farmers were forced to focus their production on cash crops like coffee and timber for export rather than growing food for their own people. This led to catastrophic deforestation that continues to devastate Haiti to this day. Once covered in lush tropical forest, Haiti has been stripped nearly bare. The soil erosion that followed has destroyed agricultural productivity and made the country dangerously vulnerable to flooding, landslides, and hurricanes.

[00:20:28]When the 2010 earthquake struck Porto Prince, killing an estimated 220,000 people, the buildings that collapsed had been constructed without proper engineering standards because the government had never had the resources to enforce building codes. The infrastructure simply did not exist and the roots of that absence stretched all the way back to 1825.

[00:20:46]The political consequences were equally devastating. A government perpetually starved of resources is a government that cannot build strong institutions.

[00:20:55]Hades chronic political instability, its long history of coups, dictatorships, and a violent transfers of power is inseparable from the financial strangulation that began with the indemnity. When there is no money to govern, governance becomes a prize to be seized by force because whoever controls the state controls the only meaningful source of revenue. The Duvalier dynasty, which ruled Haiti with ironfisted brutality from 1957 to 1986, is a perfect illustration of this dynamic.

[00:21:22]Francois Duvillier known as Papadok rose to power in a country that had already been hollowed out by more than a century of financial hemorrhaging. He consolidated his rule through a paramilitary force called the Tontan Makuts, a network of enforcers who terrorized the population with arbitrary arrests, torture, and assassination.

[00:21:39]When Papadok died in 1971, he passed the presidency to his 19-year-old son, JeanClaude, known as Baby Do, who continued the family's kleptocratic reign for another 15 years. The Duvalier are believed to have embezzled hundreds of millions of dollars from state coffers and from international loans, funneling the money into foreign bank accounts and personal luxuries while the Haitian people starved. But it is crucial to understand that the Dvalier did not create Hades dysfunction. They inherited it. They exploited a system that had been broken by design. A state so weakened by a century of debt servitude that its institutions could be captured by anyone ruthless enough to seize them. The cycle of poverty and instability was not an accident. It was engineered. And here is perhaps the most bitter irony of all.

[00:22:24]In 2003, Hades democratically elected President Jean Bertron Arsteed did something that no Haitian leader had dared to do before. He formally demanded that France repay the independence debt with interest. He put a number on it, $21 billion. He made it a centerpiece of Hades bsentennial celebrations in 2004, marking 200 years of independence.

[00:22:46]Ariststeed argued that the indemnity had been extorted under threat of military force, that it constituted odious debt, and that France had a moral and legal obligation to make restitution. The response from Paris was silence, and then shortly after action of a very different kind.

[00:23:03]In February of 2004, Aristide was ousted in a coup. He was flown out of the country on an American aircraft.

[00:23:10]Aristide himself and multiple sources later claimed that French and Haitian officials had collaborated with the United States to remove him and that his demands for reparations were a significant factor in the decision to support his overthrow. French officials denied any involvement, but the timing spoke volumes. Today, Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Nearly 2/3 of its population lives below the poverty line. Almost half the country, roughly 5.7 million people, faces acute hunger. Armed gangs now control an estimated 85% of the capital, Porto Prince. The violence has displaced more than 1 million people. In 2025, more than 5,600 people were reported killed by gang violence in a single year. The state has effectively collapsed. There's no functioning government in any meaningful sense. And the international community, the same international community that stood by while Haiti was bled dry for over a century, now rings its hands and wonders how things could have gotten so bad. The debt did not cause all of Hades problems. Internal corruption, environmental catastrophe, devastating earthquakes, and a succession of authoritarian rulers all played their roles. But the debt was the original wound, the fracture that weakened the bone before every subsequent blow. It was the mechanism through which a victorious nation was forced into permanent subjugation without a single soldier needing to set foot on its soil again. It was financial colonialism in its purest form. In April of 2025, marking exactly 200 years since the indemnity was imposed, the United Nations held a forum where speaker after speaker condemned what had been done to Haiti. French President Emanuel Maccron acknowledged that forcing Haiti to pay for its independence had been unjust and announced the creation of a joint commission of French and Haitian historians to examine the impact of the debt. It was described as a step forward, but many Haitians and scholars pointed out that acknowledgement without restitution is merely words. France repealed the original 1825 ordinance in 2016, but no reparations have been offered. No money has been returned. The commission will study. It will publish, and Haiti will remain poor. Meanwhile, the banks that profited from Hades suffering, have never been held accountable. Cityroup, the successor to National City Bank, which was instrumental in pushing for the military occupation and which profited from managing Hades loans well into the 20th century, has never acknowledged any responsibility. Credit Industry Commercial, the French bank that ran Hades national bank as a wealth extraction operation, has been absorbed into Credit Mutual, which announced after the New York Times investigation, that it would hire a team to examine its subsidiary's history in Haiti. Whether anything will come of that remains to be seen. There is another dimension to this story that rarely gets discussed, and that is the complicity of other nations beyond France and the United States.

[00:25:46]When Haiti won its independence, every slaveolding power in the Americas had a vested interest in seeing the new republic fail. The United States did not recognize Haiti until 1862, the same year Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation because southern slave holders in Congress spent decades blocking recognition. They feared correctly that a successful black republic would inspire enslaved people across the American South. Britain, despite its own abolition of the slave trade in 1807, did little to support Haiti and in many ways contributed to the embargo that strangled the young nation's economy. Spain, still clinging to its own Caribbean colonies, was openly hostile. Even other Latin American republics, many of which owed their own independence in part to Haitian support. Simone believer himself received crucial aid from Haiti during his campaigns, later distanced themselves from the black republic when it became politically convenient. Haiti was abandoned by the world precisely because its revolution was too radical, too complete, too threatening to the racial and economic order that the rest of the Atlantic world depended upon.

[00:26:44]What happened to Haiti is not merely a historical curiosity. It is a case study in how the architecture of global finance can be used as a weapon against sovereign nations. It is a story about how the most powerful countries on earth, countries that built their own wealth on the backs of enslaved people, conspired to ensure that those who freed themselves would never be allowed to prosper. It is about how debt, the most mundane of financial instruments, can become a tool of permanent subjugation.

[00:27:09]And it is about how the consequences of decisions made two centuries ago continue to reverberate in the present, shaping the lives of millions of people who had no say in any of it. The Haitian people defeated Napoleon's army. They fought off the British and the Spanish.

[00:27:23]They built a nation from nothing on the ashes of the most brutal slave colony in the Americas. And for that, they were handed a bill. A bill for their own bodies. A bill that took 122 years to pay. A bill that in any honest accounting has still not been settled.

[00:27:39]Because the true cost of what was taken from Haiti cannot be measured in franks or dollars. It can only be measured in the generations of potential that were stolen, the children who went uneducated, the sick who went untreated, the roads that were never built, and the nation that was never allowed to become what it could have been. If this story made you think differently about how the modern world was built and about who paid the price for the wealth that others enjoy, then I would ask you to like this video and subscribe to this channel. These are the kinds of stories that deserve to be told because the systems that were used to drain Haiti dry did not disappear. They evolved.

[00:28:14]They are still operating and the only way to challenge them is to understand how they work. I will see you in the next